UWM Holdings Corp (UWMC) 2023 Q1 法說會逐字稿

Good morning. My name is Sarah, and I will be your conference operator today. At this time, I would like to welcome everyone to the UWM Holdings Corporation First Quarter 2023 Earnings Conference Call. (Operator Instructions).

早上好。我叫莎拉，今天我將擔任你們的會議操作員。現在，我歡迎大家參加 UWM Holdings Corporation 2023 年第一季度收益電話會議。 （操作員說明）。

Blake Kolo, you may now begin your conference.

Blake Kolo，您現在可以開始會議了。

Good morning. This is Blake Kolo, Chief Business Officer and Head of Investor Relations. Thank you for joining us, and welcome to the First Quarter 2023 UWM Holdings Corporation's Earnings Call.

早上好。我是首席商務官兼投資者關係主管 Blake Kolo。感謝您加入我們，歡迎參加 UWM Holdings Corporation 2023 年第一季度的財報電話會議。

Before we start, I would like to remind everyone that this conference call includes forward-looking statements. For more information about factors that may cause actual results to differ materially from forward-looking statements, please refer to the earnings release that we issued this morning.

在開始之前，我想提醒大家，本次電話會議包含前瞻性陳述。有關可能導致實際結果與前瞻性陳述產生重大差異的因素的更多信息，請參閱我們今天上午發布的收益報告。

I will now turn the call over to Mat Ishbia, Chairman and CEO of UWM Holdings Corporation and United Wholesale Mortgage.

我現在將把電話轉給 UWM Holdings Corporation 和 United Wholesale Mortgage 董事長兼首席執行官 Mat Ishbia。

Thanks, Blake. A lot of great things to discuss today. I first want to start the call by thanking the 6,000-plus broker and partner that were able to join us for UWM LIVE! last week, which was an amazing event. Also I thank a lot of analysts and investors who were able to come out and make it. I enjoyed spending time with you and fielding the great questions over the couple of days we had together.

謝謝，布萊克。今天有很多重要的事情要討論。首先，我要感謝能夠參加我們 UWM LIVE 的 6,000 多名經紀人和合作夥伴！上週，這是一件了不起的事情。我還要感謝很多能夠站出來並取得成功的分析師和投資者。我很高興與您共度時光，並在我們在一起的幾天裡回答了一些重要的問題。

UWM LIVE! is an amazing event that allows you to see and feel the growth momentum of the broker channel in one room. All those loan officers, broker owners and even real estate agents flew out to Pontiac, Michigan on their own dime to get better, share ideas for success and try to win together as a team. This is what makes UWM and the broker channel different because we can work together as a team and are excited about the growth together.

UWM 現場直播！是一場讓您在一個房間裡看到並感受到經紀商渠道增長勢頭的精彩盛會。所有這些貸款官員、經紀人老闆甚至房地產經紀人都自費飛往密歇根州龐蒂亞克，以求變得更好，分享成功的想法，並努力作為一個團隊共同獲勝。這就是 UWM 和經紀商渠道的不同之處，因為我們可以作為一個團隊一起工作，並對共同成長感到興奮。

Hopefully, everyone who attended were able to see for themselves how the combination of our culture, the amazing relationships we have with our broker partners uniquely positions us for growth and success. It's one of the main ingredients to our secret sauce here at UWM. It's all about the broker community winning, and we are here to help them grow and succeed, and it's happening together as a team.

希望每一位與會者都能親眼目睹我們的文化以及我們與經紀商合作夥伴之間的良好關係如何為我們的成長和成功奠定獨特的基礎。它是 UWM 秘密醬汁的主要成分之一。這一切都是為了經紀人社區的勝利，我們在這裡幫助他們成長和成功，並且這是作為一個團隊共同發生的。

Before I get into the quarter, I want to take a few moments to address the current overall mortgage industry and market. Obviously, there's a lot going on in the industry and it's still a tough time for most lenders. This is a time when scale, efficiencies, investment in technology and business strategy around purchase are showing the winners separating from the rest. While others are having to adjust their business for the worst, UWM is hiring, innovating and preparing for further growth in '24, '25 and beyond. I've never been more confident with our model and strategy than I am today.

在進入本季度之前，我想花一些時間來談談當前的整體抵押貸款行業和市場。顯然，該行業發生了很多事情，對於大多數貸方來說仍然是一個艱難的時期。在這個時代，規模、效率、技術投資和圍繞採購的商業戰略都顯示出贏家與其他人的區別。當其他人不得不調整他們的業務以應對最壞的情況時，UWM 正在招聘、創新並為 24 年、25 年及以後的進一步增長做好準備。我從來沒有像今天這樣對我們的模式和戰略更有信心。

Now let's get into the quarter. We delivered $22.3 billion of overall production, which is the high end of our guidance; more importantly, the $19.2 billion of purchase volume, which was a first quarter production -- purchase record for us. We've been very proud of these metrics, particularly in this rate environment and with the general declines for most in the industry. Our gain margin was 92 basis points, also at the higher end of the guidance, and up from 51 basis points in the fourth quarter. We have controlled our business and are very happy with both our margin and volume in Q1.

現在讓我們進入本季度。我們實現了 223 億美元的總產量，這是我們指導的上限；更重要的是，192億美元的採購量，這是我們第一季度的生產採購記錄。我們對這些指標感到非常自豪，特別是在當前的利率環境下以及行業內大多數公司普遍下滑的情況下。我們的收益率為 92 個基點，也處於指引的較高端，高於第四季度的 51 個基點。我們已經控制了我們的業務，並對第一季度的利潤和銷量感到非常滿意。

I also quickly want to provide some highlights of the 2022 HMDA data that was released in the first quarter. This is the government data that trumps some of the self-reported industry data. For the full 2022 year, we were the #1 overall mortgage lender in America when looking at purchases and refinances of single-family homes, which is the definition of residential lending. I'm proud of this because of the positive impact it had on the consumers who chose to work with mortgage brokers. Per this HMDA data, on average, consumers save $9,400 by working with a mortgage broker and the number goes up to $10,400 for minorities. These facts make me feel great about the positive impact we have on the consumers in America that choose to work with independent mortgage brokers.

我還想快速提供第一季度發布的 2022 年 HMDA 數據的一些要點。這是政府數據，勝過一些自我報告的行業數據。 2022 年全年，在單戶住宅的購買和再融資（住宅貸款的定義）方面，我們是美國排名第一的整體抵押貸款機構。我對此感到自豪，因為它對選擇與抵押貸款經紀人合作的消費者產生了積極影響。根據 HMDA 數據，消費者通過與抵押貸款經紀人合作平均節省 9,400 美元，少數族裔的這一數字高達 10,400 美元。這些事實讓我對我們對選擇與獨立抵押貸款經紀人合作的美國消費者產生的積極影響感到非常高興。

Findamortgagebroker.com is becoming a great website where consumers are learning about the benefits of working with a mortgage broker. The data supports that broker channel is the best place for a consumer to get a loan and, as we all know, the best place for a loan officer to work. And in addition to that, some of the best news is we're the #1 mortgage originator in the country once again in the first quarter, helping consumers, helping our brokers. And we're continuing to win together as a team.

Findamortgagebroker.com 正在成為一個出色的網站，消費者可以在這裡了解與抵押貸款經紀人合作的好處。數據表明，經紀人渠道是消費者獲得貸款的最佳場所，也是信貸員工作的最佳場所。除此之外，一些最好的消息是我們在第一季度再次成為該國排名第一的抵押貸款發起人，幫助消費者，幫助我們的經紀人。我們作為一個團隊將繼續共同獲勝。

Andrew will take a deeper dive into the financials. But before I pass to him, I want to give a couple of comments on the financial performance for the first quarter. As I previously mentioned, 92 basis points of margin and $22.3 billion of production, which were both very good numbers, resulting in a favorable operating gain for the quarter. With that said, many of you are now aware of the 2 distinct components of our reported financials: the income from loan production and servicing income and along with the MSR value -- the value of the MSR portfolio.

安德魯將更深入地研究財務狀況。但在我向他提問之前，我想對第一季度的財務業績發表一些評論。正如我之前提到的，92 個基點的利潤率和 223 億美元的產量，這都是非常好的數字，為本季度帶來了良好的運營收益。話雖如此，你們中的許多人現在都知道我們報告的財務數據有兩個不同的組成部分：貸款生產收入和服務收入以及 MSR 價值——MSR 投資組合的價值。

Because rates went down in Q4 to Q1, the write-down of our MSR book was large. This markdown is driven primarily by rates that are outside of our control in noncash gain loss. We reported a net loss of $139 million. But at the same time, there's a fair value markdown of over $337 million. Operationally, with higher margins and great volumes, we actually made money. And if you look at it compared to Q1 of 2022, we actually, core-wise, made more money operating than we did in 2022, which is still a good quarter in the industry.

由於利率從第四季度到第一季度下降，我們的 MSR 賬簿的減記金額很大。這種降價主要是由我們無法控制的非現金收益損失率造成的。我們報告淨虧損 1.39 億美元。但與此同時，公允價值下降了超過 3.37 億美元。在運營上，由於利潤率更高、銷量更大，我們實際上賺了錢。如果你與 2022 年第一季度相比，我們實際上從核心角度來看，我們的運營收入比 2022 年更多，這在行業中仍然是一個不錯的季度。

Making money profitably right now is a big deal. And UWM is doing it and we're going to continue to do it going forward. UWM has never been better positioned for the growth and success going forward. I think back to where we were in the first quarter of 2020, and we are so much stronger today in all aspects of our business. With that said, I'm confident we'll be saying the same thing again in 3 years from now in how we continue to evaluate, continue to evolve. UWM has the capital, liquidity, technology, client relationship and infrastructure in place to thrive regardless of cycles, and we are doing that right now.

現在賺錢是一件大事。 UWM 正在這樣做，我們將繼續這樣做。 UWM 為未來的發展和成功做好了前所未有的準備。我回想起 2020 年第一季度的情況，今天我們在業務的各個方面都變得更加強大。話雖如此，我相信三年後我們會在如何繼續評估、繼續發展方面再次說出同樣的話。 UWM 擁有資本、流動性、技術、客戶關係和基礎設施，無論周期如何，都能蓬勃發展，我們現在正在這樣做。

I'm going to turn it over to Andrew, our CFO, for more details.

我將把它交給我們的首席財務官安德魯了解更多細節。

Thanks, Mat. 2023 is off to a great start as we achieved strong mortgage loan production volume and experienced improved gain margin in the first quarter as compared to the last half of 2022. As Mat mentioned, the higher gain margin contributed to improved profitability before considering the impact of the decline in fair value of MSRs.

謝謝，馬特。 2023 年是一個良好的開端，我們實現了強勁的抵押貸款產量，並且與 2022 年下半年相比，第一季度的利潤率有所提高。正如 Mat 提到的，在考慮 MSR 公允價值下降的影響之前，較高的利潤率有助於提高盈利能力。

Our expenses moderated in Q1 as we continue to focus on prudent cost management. Excluding interest and servicing costs and other nonoperational expenses, total expenses declined nearly $50 million or 19% compared to the first quarter of 2022, which also contributed to our strong core operational performance in Q1 of 2023.

由於我們繼續專注於審慎的成本管理，我們的支出在第一季度有所放緩。不計利息和服務成本以及其他非運營費用，總費用較 2022 年第一季度下降近 5000 萬美元，即 19%，這也為我們 2023 年第一季度強勁的核心運營業績做出了貢獻。

During the first quarter, we continued to execute on our plans to strengthen our balance sheet and improve liquidity. We completed 2 bulk MSR sales as well as 2 excess servicing strip sales in Q1 on loans with a total UPB of approximately $98 billion and completed 2 additional MSR sales subsequent to quarter end. Net cash proceeds approximated $650 million from MSR and excess sales in Q1.

第一季度，我們繼續執行加強資產負債表和改善流動性的計劃。我們在第一季度完成了 2 筆批量 MSR 銷售以及 2 筆超額維修帶銷售，貸款總額約為 980 億美元，並在季度末後完成了 2 筆額外的 MSR 銷售。來自 MSR 和第一季度超額銷售的淨現金收益約為 6.5 億美元。

In addition, we entered into a line of credit, providing up to $500 million of borrowing capacity secured by our Ginnie Mae MSRs. This facility, along with the MSR facility secured by our Fannie and Freddie MSRs, provide up to $2 billion of borrowing capacity, of which only $500 million was drawn as of the end of the quarter.

此外，我們還簽訂了一項信貸額度，以我們的吉利美 MSR 為擔保，提供高達 5 億美元的借款能力。該設施，加上我們的房利美和房地美 MSR 擔保的 MSR 設施，可提供高達 20 億美元的借貸能力，但截至本季度末僅提取了 5 億美元。

Considering available cash, self-warehouse and remaining available borrowing capacity under our secured and unsecured lines of credit, our total liquidity increased to approximately $2.9 billion as of March 31, 2023, which is an approximate $800 million increase from the end of last year. We continue to believe the measures we have taken to enhance our liquidity and strengthen our balance sheet will allow for our continued investments in growing both the wholesale channel and our market share.

考慮到我們的有擔保和無擔保信貸額度下的可用現金、自營倉庫和剩餘可用借款能力，截至 2023 年 3 月 31 日，我們的流動性總額增加至約 29 億美元，比去年年底增加約 8 億美元。我們仍然相信，我們為增強流動性和加強資產負債表而採取的措施將使我們能夠繼續投資於擴大批發渠道和市場份額。

Okay. I'll now turn things back over to our Chairman and CEO, Mat Ishbia, for some closing remarks.

好的。現在，我將把事情交回給我們的董事長兼首席執行官馬特·伊什比亞 (Mat Ishbia)，讓他發表一些結束語。

Thanks a lot, Andrew. And before I get into Q&A, I want to hit on a couple of points before we go. First, we aren't stopping. We will continue to embrace every cycle of the mortgage industry, driving forward and winning together with the broker community.

非常感謝，安德魯。在開始問答之前，我想先談談幾點。首先，我們不會停止。我們將繼續擁抱房貸行業的每一個週期，與經紀人界一起前進、共贏。

We will continue to launch new products, relevant products. We've rolled out many in the first quarter, whether it's technology, whether it's actual products like One-Time Close New Construction, Control Your Price. From a technology, we're going to continue to innovate and win. There's no hidden agenda here. The broker channel is the best place for American consumer to get a mortgage. It's the fastest, easiest, cheapest way for consumers to get a loan, and we'll do everything we can to support growing the channel.

我們將不斷推出新產品、相關產品。我們在第一季度推出了很多產品，無論是技術，還是像“一次性關閉新建建築”、“控制價格”這樣的實際產品。從技術上來說，我們要不斷創新，不斷取勝。這裡沒有隱藏的議程。經紀人渠道是美國消費者獲得抵押貸款的最佳場所。這是消費者獲得貸款最快、最簡單、最便宜的方式，我們將盡一切努力支持該渠道的發展。

We also appreciate the investor community. And for the tenth consecutive quarter, we're going to announce our $0.10 quarterly dividend. We want to continue to reward our shareholders, as I've said many times in the past, and I'm excited about the prospects of us continuing to do that going forward. In addition to that, the second quarter, we expect production to be between $23 billion and $30 billion with our margins in the range of 75 to 100 basis points.

我們也感謝投資者群體。我們將連續第十個季度宣布 0.10 美元的季度股息。正如我過去多次說過的那樣，我們希望繼續回報我們的股東，我對我們未來繼續這樣做的前景感到興奮。除此之外，我們預計第二季度的產量將在 230 億美元至 300 億美元之間，利潤率在 75 至 100 個基點之間。

UWM is winning. We're making income. We have great liquidity. Our technology and our culture are strong, and I've never been so excited about what we're doing compared to our competitors in the mortgage market. We're going to keep winning together. We're now glad to take your questions. I'm going to turn it back to the moderator.

UWM 正在獲勝。我們正在賺取收入。我們有很大的流動性。我們的技術和文化都很強大，與抵押貸款市場的競爭對手相比，我從未對我們所做的事情如此興奮。我們將繼續共同獲勝。我們現在很高興回答您的問題。我要把它轉回給主持人。

(Operator Instructions) Your first question comes from the line of Kyle Joseph with Jefferies.

（操作員說明）您的第一個問題來自凱爾·約瑟夫 (Kyle Joseph) 和杰弗里斯 (Jefferies) 的線路。

On the margin front, obviously Game On was very successful, and it was nice to see how quickly margins normalized in the first quarter. Can you give us a sense for where you -- obviously, we have your second quarter guidance. But longer term, is this kind of a steady state in terms of where you see your margins going?

在利潤率方面，顯然 Game On 非常成功，很高興看到第一季度利潤率恢復正常的速度有多快。您能否讓我們了解一下您的情況——顯然，我們有您的第二季度指導。但從長遠來看，就您認為的利潤率而言，這種情況是否處於穩定狀態？

Yes. Thanks for the question. Appreciate it. My quick perspective is, -- I think you went to UWM LIVE! also, so I think you know, I kind of answered this similarly. But let me just give you my thoughts, is that in the tough times in the mortgage market, which a lot of people are seeing right now, we're actually winning. And with that being said, I believe the margins in these trough times is probably more like 75 to 100 basis points, which is where we guided towards. I think that's what you'll see. While the rest of industry is laying people off, the rest of -- other companies, whether they're going out of business or making massive changes to their businesses, that will continue to happen. And that's kind of the margin level that it will be in.

是的。謝謝你的提問。欣賞它。我的快速觀點是，--我認為你去了 UWM LIVE！另外，所以我想你知道，我也類似地回答了這個問題。但讓我告訴你我的想法，在抵押貸款市場的艱難時期，很多人現在都看到了，我們實際上正在獲勝。話雖如此，我相信這些低谷時期的利潤率可能更像是 75 到 100 個基點，這就是我們的指導目標。我想這就是你會看到的。雖然其他行業正在裁員，但其他公司，無論是倒閉還是對業務進行大規模變革，這種情況都將繼續發生。這就是它將處於的利潤水平。

And so Game On, as you know, was a strategy that's been exceedingly successful, and it will continue to be successful with what we've done. And as we talked about, we have complete control of our business always. And we told you what we would do, and that's kind of where the margins are right now. And that's why we're guiding to the same exact area for next quarter.

因此，正如您所知，Game On 是一項非常成功的策略，並且隨著我們所做的努力，它將繼續取得成功。正如我們所說，我們始終完全控制我們的業務。我們告訴過你我們會做什麼，這就是目前的利潤率。這就是為什麼我們在下個季度指導相同的領域。

Got it. And then a follow-up for me probably to Andrew. Obviously, you guys did a nice job of enhancing the balance sheet and liquidity in the quarter. As we're thinking about leverage and kind of in this rate environment, is kind of the around the 0.9% nonfunding debt-to-equity kind of the steady state you're thinking about going forward?

知道了。然後我可能會對安德魯進行後續跟進。顯然，你們在本季度改善資產負債表和流動性方面做得很好。當我們考慮槓桿率以及在這種利率環境下的情況時，大約 0.9% 的非融資債務股本率是否是您考慮未來的穩定狀態？

Yes. Kyle, it's Andrew. Thanks for the question. I think that's where we've maintained, sort of in the 50:100, 0.5:1 ratio for the last several quarters. And I think less than 1:1 is likely where we target that and where I would expect we'll remain for the foreseeable future.

是的。凱爾，這是安德魯。謝謝你的提問。我認為這就是我們過去幾個季度一直維持的比例，大約是 50:100 或 0.5:1。我認為低於 1:1 可能是我們的目標，並且我預計我們在可預見的未來仍將保持這一水平。

Your next question comes from the line of Steve Delaney with JMP Securities.

您的下一個問題來自 JMP 證券公司的 Steve Delaney。

Congrats on meeting your production guidance, but that should not be a surprise. Now that the Fed is done with rate hikes and futures is expecting materially lower rates in 2024, how impactful do you think to your current business volumes if the 30-year mortgage rate was to drop to, say, 5% from, what, low 6s or whatever right now? I mean, just how impactful is just 100 basis points, 150 basis points, Mat, is what I guess I'm asking? And kind of your outlook for '24 as well.

恭喜您達到了製作指導的要求，但這並不奇怪。既然美聯儲已經完成加息，並且期貨預計 2024 年利率將大幅下降，那麼如果 30 年期抵押貸款利率從低 6 或其他水平降至 5%，您認為對您當前的業務量有何影響？我的意思是，100 個基點、150 個基點的影響到底有多大，Mat，我想問的是這個？還有你對 24 世紀的展望。

Yes. Thanks for the question. Appreciate it, Steve. So real quick on that is how impactful. If rates drop 100 basis points, to your example, on 5% interest rates, there's a good chance our business doubles and our margins are higher. That's why I'm trying to explain to people that in '24, '25, '26, we'll make multiple billion dollars is our expectation. It just depends on when that happens. I don't control rates.

是的。謝謝你的提問。很感激，史蒂夫。如此快速地做到這一點是多麼有影響力。如果利率下降 100 個基點，以 5% 的利率為例，我們的業務很有可能翻一番，利潤率也會更高。這就是為什麼我試圖向人們解釋，我們的期望是在 24 年、25 年、26 年，我們將賺取數十億美元。這僅取決於這種情況發生的時間。我不控制利率。

Now with the flip side, as a lot of people realize, when rates go down slightly like they just did, you take an MSR markdown. Still the reporters out there, not you guys because you're analysts, you understand what we're talking about, still the reporters say, "Oh, it looks like UWM lost money this quarter." We made a lot of money this quarter, the MSR mark going down $337 million. And still -- it's just silly people who don't understand the business. So just realize that when that happens, when rates drop 100 basis points, volume could double, margins could go up. And we'd make exceedingly amount of money, excessive amount of money and a really profitable product. Shareholders can do some great things.

現在，另一方面，正如很多人意識到的那樣，當利率像剛剛那樣略有下降時，你就會採取 MSR 降價。仍然是記者，而不是你們，因為你們是分析師，你們明白我們在說什麼，但記者仍然說，“哦，看起來 UWM 本季度虧損了。”這個季度我們賺了很多錢，MSR 標記下降了 3.37 億美元。儘管如此，這只是不了解業務的愚蠢人。因此，只要意識到這種情況發生時，當利率下降 100 個基點時，交易量可能會翻倍，利潤率可能會上升。我們會賺到非常多的錢，非常多的錢，並且生產出真正有利可圖的產品。股東可以做一些偉大的事情。

However, the MSR mark will go down. And I'm sure some reporters that don't know what they're doing and talking about will headline, "UWM loses money or UWM only makes this Much money," because they don't understand the business. And so that's kind of my perspective on it is, yes, it will be a massive, massive uptick providing not just for us but for everyone else. And actually, it will help us. It will help a lot of other lenders even more because they're actually losing money right now and actually laying off people right now when we're hiring.

不過，MSR 標記將會下降。我確信一些不知道自己在做什麼、在談論什麼的記者會以“UWM 賠錢或 UWM 只賺這麼多錢”為標題，因為他們不了解這項業務。所以我的觀點是，是的，這將是一個巨大的、巨大的上升，不僅為我們，也為其他所有人。事實上，它會對我們有所幫助。這將對許多其他貸方有更多幫助，因為他們現在實際上正在虧損，並且在我們招聘時實際上正在裁員。

And we're actually winning. And as you saw, I'm guiding even to do more volume in the second quarter than in the first quarter. So a lot of positive at UWM. So it will help us significantly, but it will help a lot of other people, the whole industry. And so early '24, mid-'24 or late '24, I don't know when it's going to be, but it's happening. We all understand that. Anyone that understands the mortgage business or just the economy in general realizes that rates aren't going up too much more from all of our perspectives.

我們實際上正在獲勝。正如您所看到的，我什至指導第二季度的銷量比第一季度更多。 UWM 有很多積極的一面。因此，這將對我們有很大幫助，也會對很多其他人、整個行業有所幫助。所以24年初、24年中或24年末，我不知道什麼時候會發生，但它正在發生。我們都明白這一點。任何了解抵押貸款業務或總體經濟的人都會意識到，從我們所有的角度來看，利率都不會上漲太多。

Your next question comes from the line of Bose George with KBW.

您的下一個問題來自 Bose George 和 KBW 的線路。

Your market share obviously grew last year. Looks like, again, it grew in the first quarter. As you dial down programs like Game On, do you think we could see the share dip a little? How do you sort of see the share outlook?

去年你們的市場份額明顯增長了。看起來，第一季度再次出現增長。當您減少 Game On 等節目時，您認為我們會看到份額略有下降嗎？您如何看待股票前景？

Yes. Good question. My perspective, I think we're running around 30%, 32% market share pre-Game On. Game On was designed to help originators join the broker channel. It's been a massive success, thousands of loan officers joining, continuing to join. You're starting to see some of that production come through, starting to see some of the success come through. It's been fantastic. However, with that being said, with your question on market share, we went from 32%, I think, to 55% in the wholesale channel. That was more than we expected.

是的。好問題。我的觀點是，我認為我們在 Game On 之前的市場份額約為 30%、32%。 Game On 旨在幫助發起人加入經紀商渠道。這是一個巨大的成功，成千上萬的信貸員加入，並繼續加入。你開始看到一些製作的完成，開始看到一些成功的實現。太棒了。然而，話雖如此，對於你關於市場份額的問題，我認為我們在批發渠道的市場份額從 32% 上升到了 55%。這超出了我們的預期。

I said always that with Game On -- after Game On, which Q1 is after Game On, as you can see, if our margin stayed in the 40% range, that will be a massive success. I think you're going to see it higher than that is your point. And so if we're in the 40%, 45% range, then think about what we just did. We just went from 32% to 40%, 45%, a massive market share gain in a very tough market without the Game On pricing. And so just realizing that -- we're looking for -- if it stays in the 40% range, we think it's excessively successful. However, I think it's going to be even higher than that in the first quarter, just like it was in the fourth quarter.

我總是說，隨著 Game On，在 Game On 之後，第一季度是在 Game On 之後，正如你所看到的，如果我們的利潤率保持在 40% 的範圍內，那將是巨大的成功。我想你會看到它比你的觀點更高。因此，如果我們處於 40%、45% 的範圍內，那麼請考慮一下我們剛剛做了什麼。我們剛剛從 32% 上升到 40%、45%，在沒有 Game On 定價的情況​​下，在一個非常艱難的市場中獲得了巨大的市場份額。因此，只要意識到——我們正在尋找——如果它保持在 40% 的範圍內，我們就認為它非常成功。然而，我認為它會比第一季度更高，就像第四季度一樣。

Okay. Great. And then just on the MSR sales, was that done at carrying value? Were there any sort of gains or losses on the MSR sales?

好的。偉大的。那麼，就 MSR 銷售而言，是否按賬面價值計算？ MSR 銷售有任何收益或損失嗎？

It's really tough to tell. There's some losses, it just depends on what day you sell it and what day you're marking it, comparing it to. If you're looking at from December 31, then there might be some loss. If you're looking at it from the day we sold it, there might be some gains. Like I don't know the exact details on each deal, but it's hard to really track it. That's why we just -- it's all part of the fair value markdown, which is a $337 million markdown.

這真的很難說。有一些損失，這取決於你在哪一天出售它，以及你在哪一天標記它，並將其與它進行比較。如果你從 12 月 31 日開始觀察，那麼可能會出現一些損失。如果你從我們出售它的那一天開始看它，可能會有一些收益。就像我不知道每筆交易的確切細節，但很難真正追踪它。這就是為什麼我們只是——這都是公允價值降價的一部分，即 3.37 億美元的降價。

And in reality, if you take that out of the $130 million loss, whatever the number is, we obviously, you can tell, from a core earnings perspective had an amazing quarter, as I pointed in my comments, even better in the first quarter. So once again, to the reporters that don't know what they're talking about, I'm sure there's some of you guys listening. You'll say that we made $450 million in the first quarter of last year, and this quarter we lost $130 million, whatever the number is. However, if you look at core earnings, we actually made more money in the first quarter this year than last year's first quarter.

事實上，如果你從 1.3 億美元的損失中剔除這一損失，無論數字是多少，我們顯然可以看出，從核心盈利的角度來看，正如我在評論中指出的那樣，我們的季度表現令人驚嘆，第一季度甚至更好。再次，對於那些不知道自己在說什麼的記者，我確信你們中的一些人在聽。你可能會說，去年第一季度我們賺了 4.5 億美元，而本季度我們虧損了 1.3 億美元，不管數字是多少。然而，如果你看一下核心收益，我們今年第一季度實際上賺的錢比去年第一季度還要多。

And on top of that, we had less volume and lower margins but I still made more money. So think about how we're doing that. We're monitoring and managing our business beyond what other people understand. But headline news and clickbait doesn't explain that stuff. So it's good for you to understand and see that the first quarter has been extremely successful from that perspective.

最重要的是，我們的銷量減少了，利潤也降低了，但我仍然賺了更多的錢。所以想想我們是如何做到這一點的。我們監控和管理我們的業務超出了其他人的理解。但頭條新聞和點擊誘餌並不能解釋這些事情。因此，從這個角度來看，第一季度非常成功，這對您來說是有好處的。

Your next question comes from the line of James Faucette with Morgan Stanley.

您的下一個問題來自摩根士丹利的 James Faucette。

This is Blake Netter on the line for James. First off, I'm wondering what size mortgage market are you managing the business for? And are there any particular areas of the business where you (inaudible) efficiencies as origination volumes come in lower than expected?

我是布萊克·內特（Blake Netter），正在為詹姆斯接線。首先，我想知道您管理的抵押貸款市場規模有多大？是否有任何特定的業務領域（聽不清）效率因原始數量低於預期而下降？

Yes. So thanks for the question. I don't think origination volumes would come in lower than expected. I think they're going to be -- as I've described, I think it's going to be a great year from the way we look at and manage the business. And so all around, the mortgage market is definitely smaller than it was last year and the year before. However, most lenders out there have tried to right size their businesses.

是的。謝謝你的提問。我認為原始數量不會低於預期。我認為，正如我所描述的，從我們看待和管理業務的方式來看，我認為這將是偉大的一年。因此，總的來說，抵押貸款市場肯定比去年和前年要小。然而，大多數貸款機構都試圖調整其業務規模。

Our business has been pretty sized well and prepared for scale. And so I'm more prepared for the future and what 2 questions ago was about, the '24 and '25, and the dominance that we're going to have -- show at that time. And so like I said -- I think we hired 100-plus people, hired -- joined this week alone. And so we're hiring people. We're growing, we're preparing for doubling this business over the next couple of years, right, from the volumes that you're seeing right now. And I'd be shocked if that didn't happen.

我們的業務規模相當大，並為擴大規模做好了準備。因此，我為未來做好了更充分的準備，以及之前的兩個問題是關於“24”和“25”的，以及我們屆時將展現的主導地位。就像我說的——我想我們僱傭了 100 多人，僅在本週就加入了。所以我們正在招聘人員。我們正在成長，我們正在準備在未來幾年內將這項業務從你現在看到的數量翻一番。如果那沒有發生我會感到震驚。

Got it. And as a quick follow-up, on your MSR portfolio, you guys highlighted that delinquency rates in your servicing portfolio are lower than the industry average. That said, are there any pockets of the portfolio where you see risk rising? And as the broader macro environment normalizes, do you think you'll see a need to increase staffing and servicing to help manage loan workouts and modifications?

知道了。作為快速跟進，在你們的 MSR 產品組合中，你們強調你們的服務組合中的拖欠率低於行業平均水平。也就是說，您認為投資組合中是否存在風險上升的部分？隨著更廣泛的宏觀環境正常化，您是否認為需要增加人員配備和服務以幫助管理貸款解決和修改？

No. So if you look at our delinquency rate, I think we were the lowest -- or one of the lowest, I'll say one of them because I don't have everyone's data, one of the lowest delinquency rates in America. The loan quality -- we still don't do loans that everyone else does. Everyone else goes to 580 FICO scores or 550 FICO scores. They're all digging deep to try to just get a couple of loans. We're still at 620 FICO. We have the lowest delinquency rates or really low delinquency, I'll call it one of the lowest, and one of the highest FICO scores of anyone in the market.

不。所以如果你看看我們的拖欠率，我認為我們是最低的——或者說是最低的之一，我會說其中之一，因為我沒有每個人的數據，我們是美國拖欠率最低的國家之一。貸款質量——我們仍然不像其他人那樣提供貸款。其他人都會選擇 580 FICO 分數或 550 FICO 分數。他們都在努力爭取幾筆貸款。我們的 FICO 仍為 620。我們的拖欠率最低，或者說拖欠率非常低，我稱之為市場上最低的之一，也是市場上 FICO 分數最高的之一。

And so our loan quality will get hit a lot less than -- or our delinquency get hit a lot less than everyone else. Do I see it being a massive issue in the industry? The answer is no, even without us being on the more conservative side of the credit profile. So I don't see it as a big thing. I think it's overblown, and I'm not as concerned about it as maybe other people would be talking. But in general, I think our book -- our servicing book is strong, our strategy is strong, and I feel really great about where we're at. But thank you for the question.

因此，我們的貸款質量受到的影響將遠小於其他國家，或者說我們的拖欠率受到的影響將遠小於其他國家。我認為這是行業中的一個大問題嗎？答案是否定的，即使我們的信用狀況不是比較保守。所以我不認為這是一件大事。我認為這有點言過其實了，而且我並不像其他人所說的那樣擔心。但總的來說，我認為我們的服務書籍很強大，我們的戰略很強大，我對我們所處的位置感到非常滿意。但謝謝你的提問。

Your next question comes from the line of Eric Hagen with BTIG.

您的下一個問題來自 BTIG 的 Eric Hagen。

Hope you're doing well. I think a follow-up on the MSR. How are you guys thinking about the size of the MSR portfolio, what you consider to be maybe a sustainable and comfortable level for you to manage that -- the composition of that portfolio? I don't think we saw any MSR sales in the quarter, but how are you guys are thinking about that too?

希望你做得很好。我認為是 MSR 的後續行動。你們如何看待 MSR 投資組合的規模？您認為管理該投資組合的可持續且舒適的水平是多少？我認為本季度我們沒有看到任何 MSR 銷售，但你們對此有何看法？

Thanks a lot, Eric. I appreciate the question. They're actually worse than MSR sales in the quarter. But to answer you, I think what you're trying to figure out is how big our MSR book going to be, and so what I would tell you, I think it's going to be around $300 billion. And I always just tell people we're originating a lot of volume. I basically assume even with -- if we do MSR sales -- if we don't do MSR sales, I think the book basically stays plus or minus 10% to 15% of where it's at right now.

非常感謝，埃里克。我很欣賞這個問題。實際上，該季度的銷售額比 MSR 的銷售額還要差。但要回答你，我認為你想要弄清楚的是我們的 MSR 賬簿將有多大，所以我要告訴你的是，我認為它將約為 3000 億美元。我總是告訴人們我們正在生產大量產品。我基本上假設，即使我們進行 MSR 銷售，如果我們不進行 MSR 銷售，我認為這本書基本上會保持目前水平的正負 10% 到 15%。

So if we don't do any sales, it will grow 15%, 20%, maybe. But if we do a bunch of sales, it could go down 10%, 15%. But basically, I think $300 billion seems like a good target. I think we're at $297 billion, I could be off quite slightly. But let's call it $300 billion. And that's kind of what we're looking at it going forward. So I look at it as -- it's been pretty consistent with that number.

因此，如果我們不做任何銷售，它可能會增長 15%、20%。但如果我們進行大量銷售，它可能會下降 10%、15%。但基本上，我認為 3000 億美元似乎是一個不錯的目標。我認為我們的目標是 2970 億美元，我可能會略有偏差。但我們姑且稱之為 3000 億美元吧。這就是我們未來的展望。所以我認為它與這個數字非常一致。

Our liquidity is so strong right now that the need for selling MSRs is not there. As you can see, our cash position, which is a critical focus of ours, and Andrew does a heck of a job for us on that along with Blake and the team managing that. And so looking at those numbers, our liquidity is in a great position. So we don't need to sell any MSR. So our MSR book could grow. However, if someone wants to offer us a good price, and we're opportunistic out there, we will do it as long as we're doing the right things by our brokers and by our business and by our shareholders.

我們現在的流動性非常強，不需要出售 MSR。正如你所看到的，我們的現金狀況是我們的一個關鍵焦點，安德魯和布萊克以及管理這方面的團隊在這方面為我們做了很多工作。因此，從這些數字來看，我們的流動性處於有利地位。所以我們不需要出售任何MSR。因此，我們的 MSR 書籍可以不斷增長。然而，如果有人想給我們提供一個好的價格，而我們是機會主義的，只要我們的經紀人、我們的業務和我們的股東做正確的事情，我們就會這麼做。

That's great detail. Can you say how many was the UPB of MSRs that you sold in the quarter was?

這是非常詳細的。您能說一下您本季度銷售的 MSR 的 UPB 是多少嗎？

It's not that clean so I don't know the exact number because it doesn't really represent it. Because sometimes you're not selling the UPB, you're selling the excess servicing. And so therefore, it's really not actually any UPB because I still hold the servicing while I sold the excess, which is a capital markets transaction, if you think of it that way. So I don't have the exact -- if I told you we did $20 billion but we brought in $500 million, you'd say that, that math doesn't work out. That's kind of how I think about it. So it's not apples to apples. And that's why you got to just look at the overall MSR book as, hey, $300 billion plus or minus 10%, 15%, and it will probably be pretty consistent in that number.

它不是那麼乾淨，所以我不知道確切的數字，因為它並不能真正代表它。因為有時您出售的不是 UPB，而是多餘的服務。因此，它實際上並不是任何 UPB，因為當我出售多餘部分時，我仍然持有服務，這是資本市場交易，如果你這樣想的話。所以我沒有確切的數據——如果我告訴你我們做了 200 億美元，但我們帶來了 5 億美元，你會說，數學不成立。我就是這麼想的。所以這不是蘋果對蘋果。這就是為什麼你只需要看看整個 MSR 賬簿，嘿，3000 億美元正負 10%、15%，而且這個數字可能非常一致。

Yes, yes. That's really helpful. One more. How are you guys thinking about managing the interest rate risk and the origination pipeline, I guess, both from the perspective of hedging the pipeline before delivery? And anything you're doing maybe to mitigate the higher interest expense from holding loans on warehouse?

是的是的。這真的很有幫助。多一個。我想，從交付前對沖管道的角度來看，你們如何考慮管理利率風險和發起管道？您正在採取哪些措施來減輕因倉庫貸款而產生的較高利息費用？

Yes. I mean, so we hedge our pipeline every day. We don't take any risk on any of our pipeline. So that's been a constant for years and years and years. And so we try to be risk-free in that. And obviously, there's always risk when you're hedging and trying to handle things in the capital markets world. But we have an amazing capital markets team and feel really great about what we're doing there. So that's kind of how I think about that risk. I'm sorry, your second part of the question, Eric, if you're still on the line?

是的。我的意思是，我們每天都會對沖管道。我們不會對任何管道承擔任何風險。所以多年來，這一直是不變的。因此，我們盡量做到無風險。顯然，當你在資本市場世界中進行對沖並試圖處理事情時，總是存在風險。但我們擁有一支出色的資本市場團隊，並且對我們在那裡所做的事情感到非常滿意。這就是我對這種風險的看法。對不起，埃里克，你的問題的第二部分，你還在電話裡嗎？

Yes, just mitigating -- anything you guys are doing to mitigate the higher interest expense from holding loans on warehouse and the NIM that you're kind of earning there.

是的，只是減輕——你們正在做的任何事情，以減輕因持有倉庫貸款和您在那裡賺取的淨息差而產生的更高利息費用。

Yes. So I mean, the interest expense, I know it's hard to see it, but it's actually pretty low relative to the market. However, we have debt. And so the interest expense includes that debt, and so a lot of that stuff there. But we're doing self-warehousing with some of our excess cash to drive that number down. And we'll continue to do that and take advantage of that opportunity because we have so much liquidity, and it's just sitting there. We're just sitting there looking at it.

是的。所以我的意思是，利息支出，我知道很難看到，但相對於市場而言，它實際上相當低。然而，我們有債務。因此，利息支出包括債務，以及其中的很多東西。但我們正在用一些多餘的現金進行自我倉儲，以降低這個數字。我們將繼續這樣做並利用這個機會，因為我們擁有如此多的流動性，而且它就坐在那裡。我們只是坐在那裡看著它。

So how do we use it? And Blake Kolo and his team and Andrew and his team do a great job of managing that. So I think the interest expense versus the interest income, the fact that it's a positive number shows that we're doing a really great job managing the because, remember, it's not just warehouse and loans, we have interest expense in there from our servicing -- not from our servicing, from our debt that we have out there.

那麼我們該如何使用它呢？ Blake Kolo 和他的團隊以及 Andrew 和他的團隊在管理方面做得非常出色。所以我認為利息支出與利息收入相比，它是一個正數，這一事實表明我們在管理方面做得非常出色，因為，記住，這不僅僅是倉庫和貸款，我們的利息支出來自我們的服務——而不是來自我們的服務，來自我們的債務。

(Operator Instructions) Your next question comes from the line of Doug Harter with Credit Suisse.

（操作員說明）您的下一個問題來自瑞士信貸銀行的 Doug Harter。

This quarter, it looked like the G&A expense fell by a meaningful amount. I was just hoping you could give some detail as to what drove that.

本季度，一般管理費用似乎大幅下降。我只是希望你能提供一些細節來說明是什麼推動了這一點。

Well, I think the reality, Doug, is we've been managing this for years. Everyone thinks -- everyone kind of wants to comment every time, "Oh, Mat's not laying anyone off." Of course, we're not laying anyone off. I'm actually hiring. But the G&A expense is not just people. There's a lot of things we manage. And once again, Andrew, our CFO, does a heck of a job, and I'll let him make a comment here in a second so he can give you any of his thoughts in addition.

嗯，我認為現實是，道格，我們多年來一直在處理這個問題。每個人都想——每個人每次都想發表評論，“哦，馬特沒有解僱任何人。”當然，我們不會解僱任何人。我其實是在招人。但一般管理費用不僅僅涉及人員。有很多事情是我們管理的。我們的首席財務官安德魯再一次做得非常出色，我會讓他稍後在這裡發表評論，這樣他就可以向您提供他的任何想法。

But the reality is we manage our costs, we manage our business to the T, to the dollar, understand everything we're spending. And it's not people, which everyone likes to talk about. A lot of times it's the vendors. A lot of times it's negotiating new deals. And we've done a great job of that. And you'll actually see some of those things come through throughout the year that we've been working on, not just in the first quarter but last year, in the second, third and fourth quarter.

但現實是，我們管理我們的成本，我們管理我們的業務，以美元為單位，了解我們所花的一切。而且這不是每個人都喜歡談論的人。很多時候是供應商。很多時候它都在談判新的交易。我們在這方面做得很好。實際上，您會看到我們全年一直在努力完成的一些事情，不僅是在第一季度，而且是在去年的第二、第三和第四季度。

And so the way I look at it is -- the most important thing, Doug, to look at is operating core income. We made more money this year's first quarter than last year's first quarter. And last year's first quarter, we did significantly more volume, more gain on sale. So obviously, we're managing the business very well, and all these details are coming through in a positive way, as I said it would over the last 4, 5 quarters I've been getting that question. So Andrew, I don't know if you have any comments to throw in that maybe I didn't hit.

因此，我的看法是——道格，最重要的事情是運營核心收入。我們今年第一季度賺的錢比去年第一季度多。去年第一季度，我們的銷量顯著增加，銷售收益也增加。顯然，我們的業務管理得很好，所有這些細節都以積極的方式得到落實，正如我所說，在過去的四、五個季度裡，我一直收到這個問題。所以安德魯，我不知道你是否有任何意見可以提出，也許我沒有擊中。

I think you covered it well, Mat. And I think on a sequential basis, it's down -- partially, there was a slight increase to our repurchase reserve in Q4 of last year. On a year-over-year basis, it's down a little bit, relatively flat. But Mat's comments remain the same.

我認為你講得很好，馬特。我認為從環比來看，它有所下降——部分原因是去年第四季度我們的回購準備金略有增加。與去年同期相比，略有下降，相對持平。但馬特的評論保持不變。

Your next question comes from the line of Kevin Barker with Piper Sandler.

你的下一個問題來自凱文·巴克和派珀·桑德勒的對話。

This is Brad Capuzzi on for Kevin Barker. It's nice to see you guys continue to guide to higher production, stable margins. Most of my questions have been answered. Just following up on Doug's question with G&A coming down. How do you guys view expenses going forward?

我是凱文·巴克 (Kevin Barker) 的布拉德·卡普齊 (Brad Capuzzi)。很高興看到你們繼續引導更高的產量和穩定的利潤。我的大部分問題都得到了解答。只是跟進 Doug 的問題，G&A 也隨之下降。大家如何看待未來的開支？

Well, I guess my perspective, depending on how you look at it, the volume is going to go up, right? And so there are a lot of expenses that are variable. So some of those numbers will go up. Obviously, we're going to continue to manage -- I just told you, we're hiring. So some of those expenses will go up. But overall, the thing I focus on, less on expenses and more on are we profitable. And we're extremely profitable. Core earnings were great, especially in one of the hardest markets. Because not only the first quarter was tough, but the fourth quarter ended in December was a slow month. And so that really bleeds into the first quarter across the board.

好吧，我想我的觀點是，取決於你如何看待它，成交量會上升，對吧？因此，有很多可變的費用。因此，其中一些數字將會上升。顯然，我們將繼續管理——我剛剛告訴過你，我們正在招聘。因此，其中一些費用將會增加。但總的來說，我更關注的是我們的盈利能力，而不是支出。而且我們的利潤非常豐厚。核心收益非常可觀，尤其是在最困難的市場之一。因為不僅第一季度很艱難，截至12月的第四季度也是一個緩慢的月份。因此，這確實全面影響到了第一季度。

And so I feel really good about it. Are we managing expenses? Yes. Do I have more expenses that are coming out of the business that you guide -- that aren't tied to anything besides vendors and partnerships and things we have outside? Yes. But I will not sacrifice -- I'm not trying to save a dollar -- jump over dollars to pick up pennies. And so I'm going to make sure we run our business the right way. And if I'm going to make investments in people, in technology and in business strategies, we're going to continue to do that. So I spend very little time focused on expenses while we're making a lot of money.

所以我對此感覺非常好。我們是否在管理開支？是的。我是否有更多的費用來自您指導的業務——除了供應商、合作夥伴關係以及我們外部的東西之外，這些費用與任何其他東西都沒有關係？是的。但我不會犧牲——我不想省一美元——跳過美元去撿便士。因此，我將確保我們以正確的方式經營我們的業務。如果我要對人員、技術和商業戰略進行投資，我們將繼續這樣做。因此，當我們賺很多錢時，我很少花時間關注開支。

What I do focus on is how do we drive revenue and help our brokers grow their business. When the brokers grow, UWM grows. And that's what's happening. That's why I talked at the beginning of the call about UWM LIVE! And I don't think you were there, but if you were at UWM LIVE!, you would have seen the broker channel, the camaraderie, the culture, the opportunity, the innovation and the upside. And I think you'll see some of that in the second quarter. We'll have a great quarter, as I already guided to. But on top of that, it's going to continue to roll. And so expenses is important. But if it's 1 of the first 5 things I talk about, then I'm not doing my job as a CEO because I'm jumping over pennies -- or dollars picking up pennies, and that's not who we are and never who we will be.

我真正關注的是我們如何增加收入並幫助我們的經紀人發展業務。當經紀商成長時，UWM 也會成長。這就是正在發生的事情。這就是為什麼我在電話會議開始時談到 UWM LIVE！我認為您不在場，但如果您在 UWM LIVE!，您就會看到經紀商渠道、友情、文化、機會、創新和優勢。我想你會在第二季度看到其中的一些。正如我已經指導的那樣，我們將度過一個美好的季度。但最重要的是，它將繼續滾動。因此費用很重要。但如果這是我談論的前五件事中的一件，那麼我就沒有履行首席執行官的職責，因為我跳過了小錢，或者說，錢撿到了小錢，而這不是我們現在的樣子，也永遠不會成為我們將來的樣子。

Your final question comes from the line of Michael Kaye with Wells Fargo.

你的最後一個問題來自邁克爾·凱與富國銀行的對話。

The Q1 gain on sale margin of 92 basis points was towards the high end of your guidance last quarter. But for Q2, you're still guiding to that original 75 to 100 basis point range. So the question is, why are you not taking more of that gain on sale momentum in Q1 and maybe top up the bottom end of that Q2 gain on sale margin guidance? Is it more control your own price program in Q2 or maybe other factors, like trying to provide extra pricing support for the brokers on spring purchase season? Or is this just more conservatism as you have a good track record of coming in toward the high end of the guidance?

第一季度銷售利潤率增長 92 個基點，接近上季度指導的上限。但對於第二季度，您仍將指引維持在最初的 75 至 100 個基點範圍。所以問題是，為什麼您不從第一季度的銷售勢頭中獲取更多收益，並可能補充第二季度銷售利潤率收益指引的底端？是在第二季度更多地控制自己的價格計劃，還是其他因素，比如試圖在春季採購季節為經紀人提供額外的定價支持？或者這只是更加保守，因為您在接近指導的高端方面有著良好的記錄？

Yes. I don't know if it's conservative. We always come in with our guidance, I say always, but we always have. It's been 10 quarters now, I believe, just like we're paying our dividend for 10 straight quarters. The way I look at it is I'm guiding you what I think the numbers will be. Margins can change, things can change up and down. We control how we price on a daily basis. But also there's different products at different margins, different opportunities. And so if you do more conventional, more government, more jumbo, margins are different on those different loan sizes.

是的。不知道這樣算不算保守。我們總是帶著我們的指導而來，我說總是，但我們總是如此。我相信現在已經過去了 10 個季度，就像我們連續 10 個季度支付股息一樣。我的看法是，我正在指導你我認為的數字。利潤可以改變，事情可以上下變化。我們每天控制定價方式。但也有不同的產品、不同的利潤、不同的機會。因此，如果你採取更傳統的、更多的政府、更多的巨額貸款，那麼不同貸款規模的利潤率是不同的。

And so I think the 75 to 100 is a good number. I would assume that's it's going to be in the middle of that number. Could it be a little on the lower end or higher end? That's why I guide -- gave 25 basis points. But we make sure -- the same thing with the $23 billion to $30 billion, could we be on the low end of that, the middle or the high? Like that's -- if I felt really confident we'd be in a different part of it, I'd guide to a lower number.

所以我認為 75 到 100 是一個不錯的數字。我認為它將位於該數字的中間。會不會有點低端或高端？這就是為什麼我給出了 25 個基點的指導。但我們要確保——對於 230 億至 300 億美元來說，我們是處於低端、中端還是高端？就像這樣——如果我真的有信心我們會處於不同的部分，我會引導到一個較低的數字。

However, honestly, Michael, you know me, like I'm not that focused on exactly those guidance. I'm focused on running the business on a day-to-day basis. If I see an opportunity to do more volume and margins go down a little bit, I'll do it. If I see an opportunity for margins, we'll take advantage of that and maybe we'll do a little less volume. There's a lot of things we do. But the reality of our business is we're running it for the broker's success. We want to bring on more mortgage brokers to the channel. We want to help more brokers, loan officers grow their business. And we can do that in many ways. As you saw in UWM LIVE!, Michael, you were here, the training, the coaching, the opportunity to learn, that's available. But there's also things on price. There's also things on helping them do social media.

然而，說實話，邁克爾，你了解我，就像我並不那麼專注於這些指導。我專注於日常業務運營。如果我看到有機會增加銷量並且利潤率稍微下降，我就會這麼做。如果我看到利潤機會，我們會利用它，也許我們會減少一點產量。我們做了很多事情。但我們業務的現實是，我們的運營是為了經紀商的成功。我們希望吸引更多抵押貸款經紀人加入該渠道。我們希望幫助更多的經紀人、信貸員發展業務。我們可以通過多種方式做到這一點。正如您在 UWM LIVE! 中看到的那樣，邁克爾，您在這裡，培訓、輔導、學習機會，這些都是可用的。但也有價格方面的事情。還有幫助他們做社交媒體的事情。

And so there's all these things we're doing. And so, I guess, a long way of saying, I feel confident $23 billion to $30 billion, I feel confident 75 to 100 basis points. And as I said at the very beginning of this call, in the trough of the mortgage industry, wholesale will be between 75 and 100. I think I said that last year and I'm saying it again this year. Now if the mortgage market comes out of the trough, then I will move the guidance up a little bit more. Or if it goes -- if it changes in a way, I'll move it up as we see fit. But that's my best estimate at this point, 75 to 100 and $23 billion to $30 billion. And I'm -- we're working extremely hard to hit those targets to make sure that we deliver what we tell you we're going to deliver, like we have every single time I've spoken on these calls. And I plan on continuing to do.

所以我們正在做所有這些事情。所以，我想，從長遠來看，我對 230 億至 300 億美元有信心，我對 75 至 100 個基點有信心。正如我在本次電話會議一開始所說的那樣，在抵押貸款行業的低谷中，批發金額將在 75 到 100 之間。我想我去年就說過了，今年我還會再說一遍。現在，如果抵押貸款市場走出低谷，那麼我會將指導意見上調一點。或者，如果它發生了——如果它以某種方式發生了變化，我會按照我們認為合適的方式將其上移。但這是我目前的最佳估計，75 比 100，230 億到 300 億美元。我——我們正在非常努力地實現這些目標，以確保我們能夠實現我們告訴你們的我們將要實現的目標，就像我每次在這些電話會議上發言時所做的那樣。我計劃繼續這樣做。

So what would it take for you to be towards that bottom end of the guidance? So you're saying it's more of mix or maybe you'll push pricing programs more? I'm just trying to understand the delta, why would you go from like 92 basis points towards that low end?

那麼，您需要怎樣做才能達到指南的底部呢？所以你是說這更多的是混合，或者你會更多地推動定價計劃？我只是想了解 Delta，為什麼你會從 92 個基點走向那個低端？

Yes. I mean, once again, it's -- there's a lot of things that vary. There's things that happen maybe that pushed it up to 92 that could have made it at 78 this quarter, right? And there's things that could be -- make it -- next quarter, it could be 99 or 76, right? I have to give a range because gain on sale is not as clean. There's derivatives, there's a lot of different numbers coming in. There's a lot of different things. There's timing of issues when we sell loans. There's timing of hedges. There's market movements.

是的。我的意思是，再一次，有很多事情是不同的。也許發生了一些事情，將其推升至 92，而本季度本可以將其升至 78，對吧？有些事情可能會在下個季度實現，可能是 99 或 76，對吧？我必須給出一個範圍，因為銷售收益並不那麼乾淨。有衍生品，有很多不同的數字。有很多不同的東西。當我們出售貸款時，會出現一些問題。有對沖的時機。有市場波動。

It's a lot more complex than just like, hey, you put a number on a piece paper and it just goes through. And so I want to give a little bit of a range for you. And so 75 to 100, I feel really strong about. And I will deliver that once again so you can be confident in that. But to try to narrow the view to the higher end or the lower end of the range, I'm not going to be able to do it for you, Michael, although I love you and I appreciate the question. 75 to 100, $23 billion to $30 billion, and I'll deliver once again for the 11th straight quarter of what I told you.

這比簡單地複雜得多，嘿，你把一個數字放在一張紙上，然後它就通過了。所以我想給你一點範圍。 75 比 100，我感覺真的很強大。我將再次傳達這一點，以便您對此充滿信心。但是，要嘗試將視野縮小到範圍的高端或低端，我無法為你做到這一點，邁克爾，儘管我愛你並且我很欣賞這個問題。 75 比 100，230 億美元到 300 億美元，我將連續第 11 個季度再次兌現我告訴你們的內容。

And you have a final follow-up question from Bose George.

博斯·喬治提出了最後一個後續問題。

This is actually Mike Smyth on for Bose. You kind of hit on the UWM LIVE!, but I was wondering if you could just touch on kind of the opportunity set in jumbo or any other products for that matter just with some of the stuff going on with banks.

這實際上是 Bose 的 Mike Smyth。你有點喜歡 UWM LIVE！，但我想知道你是否可以談談 Jumbo 或任何其他與銀行相關的產品中設置的機會。

Yes. Thanks for the question. Appreciate it. And so, yes, I think jumbo is one of the spots that we're really focused on to hopefully help gain some opportunity for our broker community. The only reason a retail loan officer stays at a bank would be because, a, they can't generate any business themselves; or b, they do a lot of jumbo loans and sometimes banks can offer jumbo product as a loss leader. I think with some of the bank valuers recently, as we've talked about, I think some of the banks are able to back off that strategy a little bit, which actually gives an opportunity upside for UWM in the broker community. How that will play out, I don't know, to be honest with you. As you know, that's a focus and we'd like to figure it out. We don't have it solved yet.

是的。謝謝你的提問。欣賞它。所以，是的，我認為 Jumbo 是我們真正關注的地方之一，希望能夠幫助我們的經紀商社區獲得一些機會。零售信貸員留在銀行的唯一原因是，a，他們自己無法創造任何業務；或者b，他們提供大量巨額貸款，有時銀行可以提供巨額產品作為虧損領導者。我認為最近一些銀行估值師，正如我們所討論的，我認為一些銀行能夠稍微放棄這一策略，這實際上為 UWM 在經紀人社區中提供了上升的機會。老實說，我不知道結果會如何。如您所知，這是一個焦點，我們希望解決這個問題。我們還沒有解決這個問題。

But with that being said, that's all upside because right now our jumbo production is very low. On the product side, in general, we're looking for high-quality loans, like -- looking at high-quality loans that can be done faster, easier and cheaper because brokers, and findamortgagebroker.com, which is the website where consumers are going to, is growing. And we want to continue to drive people there and educate them that the fastest, easiest, cheapest way to get a mortgage is through a broker. They are the expert that will shop on your behalf. And if I can add a couple of more products, jumbo being one of the many -- better product with jumbo, will that help that website? Will that help brokers? Yes, yes. So we are working on it. But at the same time, that's all upside because what you saw in the first quarter and what you see in my guidance in the second quarter is assuming that, that's not really solved by that time.

但話雖如此，這都是有利的，因為目前我們的巨型飛機產量非常低。在產品方面，總的來說，我們正在尋找高質量的貸款，比如——尋找可以更快、更容易和更便宜地完成的高質量貸款，因為經紀人和消費者要去的網站 findamortgagebroker.com 正在增長。我們希望繼續吸引人們去那裡，並教育他們，獲得抵押貸款最快、最簡單、最便宜的方式是通過經紀人。他們是代表您購物的專家。如果我可以添加更多產品，jumbo 就是其中之一——使用 jumbo 提供更好的產品，這會對網站有所幫助嗎？這對經紀人有幫助嗎？是的是的。所以我們正在努力。但與此同時，這都是有利的，因為你在第一季度看到的以及我在第二季度指導中看到的假設是，到那時這個問題還沒有真正解決。

Great. That's helpful.

偉大的。這很有幫助。

Yes. Thank you for the question. And I know that was the last question, I believe. And so I just want to say thank you to everyone who jumps on these calls. I appreciate your questions, I appreciate your thoughts. We appreciate all of you that came out to UWM LIVE! to really understand our culture and our team and the broker community. We're excessively -- exceedingly, if that's a better word, excited about the broker community. The broker community is growing and everyone that was at UWM LIVE, and a lot of you on this call, I see, saw it. And so hopefully, you guys feel that energy and that passion we have and the brokers have.

是的。感謝你的提問。我相信這是最後一個問題。所以我只想對所有參與這些​​電話的人表示感謝。我感謝你的問題，我感謝你的想法。我們感謝大家來到 UWM LIVE！真正了解我們的文化、我們的團隊和經紀人社區。我們對經紀商社區感到非常興奮，如果這是一個更好的詞的話。經紀人社區正在成長，UWM LIVE 的每個人，以及這次電話會議上的很多人，我看到了。希望你們能感受到我們和經紀人所擁有的能量和熱情。

And so we're going to keep winning together. Q2 is going to be a heck of a quarter and we're excited to share with you. I'll be talking to you guys after the quarter. And if you have anything in between, Blake's available, I'm available, Andrew and our team. We appreciate you guys and gals. Have a fantastic day.

因此，我們將繼續共同獲勝。第二季度將是一個非常重要的季度，我們很高興與您分享。本季度結束後我將與大家交談。如果您有任何介於兩者之間的事情，布萊克（Blake）有空，我有空，安德魯（Andrew）和我們的團隊也有空。我們感謝你們。擁有美好的一天。

This concludes today's conference call. You may now disconnect your lines.

今天的電話會議到此結束。您現在可以斷開線路。