台積電 ADR (TSM) 2002 Q2 法說會逐字稿

Welcome to Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company's Q2 2002 results webcast conference call. Today's event is hosted by Mr. Harvey Chang, Senior Vice President and Chief Information Officer and Dr. Tsai, President and Chief Operating Officer. This conference call is being webcast live via the TSMC website at www.TSMC.com. And only in audio mode. Your dial-in lines are also in a listen-only mode. This call is being recorded at the request of TSMC. If there are any objections, you may disconnect at this time.

歡迎參加台灣半導體製造公司 2002 年第二季業績網路廣播電話會議。今天的活動由資深副總裁兼資訊長 Harvey Chang 先生和總裁兼營運長蔡博士主持。本次電話會議透過台積電網站 www.TSMC.com 進行現場直播。並且僅在音訊模式下。您的撥入線路也處於只聽模式。應台積電的要求，本次通話正在錄音。如果有任何異議，此時您可以斷開連接。

At the conclusion of management presentation we will be opening the floor for questions. At that time further instructions will be provided as to the procedure to follow if you would like to ask any questions. Please be advised. for those participants who do not yet have a copy of the press release. you may download it directly from the TSMC website at WWW.TSMC.com. Please also download the summary slides in relation to today's quarterly review presentation. Once again, the URL is WWW.TSMC.com. I would now like to turn the conference over to Mr. Leon Chu (ph) Head of Investor Relations for TSMC. for the cautionary statement before the main presentation by Mr. Chang and Dr. Tsai.

管理層演示結束後，我們將開放提問環節。如果您想提出任何問題，屆時我們將提供有關應遵循的程序的進一步說明。請注意。對於那些尚未收到新聞稿副本的參與者來說。您可以直接從台積電網站 WWW.TSMC.com 下載。請同時下載與今天的季度審查報告相關的摘要投影片。再次強調，該 URL 是 WWW.TSMC.com。現在，我想將會議交給台積電投資人關係主管 Leon Chu 先生（音譯）。在張先生和蔡博士發表主要演講之前，我們發出了警示聲明。

Good morning and good evening to all participants. This is Leon Chu, Head of Investor Relations for TSMC. Before we begin our conference call, I would like to state that the management's comments about TSMC's current expectations made during this conference call are forward-looking statements, subject to significant risks and uncertainties, and that actual results may differ materially from those contained in the forward-looking statements. Information as to those factors that could cause actual results to differ materially from TSMC's forward-looking statements, may be found in TSMC's annual report on form 20-S, filed with the United States Security and Exchange Commission on May 9, 2002. And such other documents as the Company may file with or submit to the SEC from time to time. And now, I would like to turn the conference call over to Mr. Harvey Chang, our Senior Vice President and the Chief Financial Officer.

各位與會人員早安、晚上好。我是台積電投資人關係主管 Leon Chu。在我們開始電話會議之前，我想聲明的是，管理層在本次電話會議中對台積電當前預期的評論屬於前瞻性陳述，受重大風險和不確定性的影響，實際結果可能與前瞻性陳述中的結果存在重大差異。有關可能導致實際結果與台積電前瞻性陳述存在重大差異的因素的信息，可在台積電 2002 年 5 月 9 日向美國證券交易委員會提交的 20-S 表年度報告中找到。以及公司可能不時向美國證券交易委員會提交或備案的其他文件。現在，我想將電話會議轉交給我們的高級副總裁兼財務長 Harvey Chang 先生。

Thank you Leon. Hello everyone. I would like to welcome all of you to come to our second quarter results conference call. I will begin by making sort of a quick summary on our second quarter results, and then we will open the floor for questions.

謝謝你，Leon。大家好。歡迎大家參加我們的第二季業績電話會議。我將首先對我們的第二季業績做一個簡要總結，然後我們將開始回答問題。

To begin with, let me begin by giving you a very quick highlight of what happened during second quarter. For our second quarter this year, actually our total wafer shipment have reached 719,000 wafers, which has brought up our utilization to the level of 85%. This is roughly 20% growth versus our wafer shipment in the first quarter. Our total revenue for the second quarter is in the dollar 44 billion. Our net profit after tax, roughly 9.3 billion, which are equivalent to 49 cents in the dollar, per share.

首先，讓我簡單介紹一下第二季發生的情況。今年第二季度，我們的晶圓總出貨量實際上已達到 719,000 片，這使我們的利用率達到了 85% 的水平。與第一季的晶圓出貨量相比，成長了約 20%。我們第二季的總營收為 440 億美元。我們的稅後淨利潤約為 93 億美元，相當於每股 49 美分。

If we compare these numbers to the same period last year, our second quarter revenue 44.1 billion has showed a much higher growth rate of 68%, and our gross profit 16.4 billion or 229% higher than the same period last year. Gross margin is 30% -- 37% versus last year's 19%. And our operating profits are 11.9 billion NT, and net profit after tax 9.3, versus last year which was only .3 billion. So all these numbers are way higher than what we had the same period last year.

如果和去年同期相比，我們第二季的營收441億，成長高達68%，毛利164億，比去年同期高出229%。毛利率為 30% - 37%，去年同期為 19%。我們的營業利潤是新台幣119億元，稅後淨利是新台幣93億元，去年同期只有新台幣3億元。所以所有這些數字都遠高於去年同期的數字。

If you take a look at balance sheet cash flow, we can see that our financial structure continues to remain sound, and we continue to have a very strong balance sheet. In terms of our cash positions, actually end of second quarter, our total cash on hand have reached 66.4 billion, which is roughly 28 billion higher than last year. Our debt has increased to 6 billion, and the total assets, which is roughly 37 -- 375 billion and it's about 11% higher than the same period last year. The depreciation amortization number for the second quarter is roughly 14 billion NT, compared to last year's 11.9. Total capital expenditure this quarter is roughly 10.4 billion compared to 18.3 last year. Our ROE for the second quarter long, after annualized, is around 11.2% versus 6.6 last year second quarter. And our return on asset is 9.5% versus 5.6% last year.

如果你看一下資產負債表現金流，我們可以看到我們的財務結構持續保持穩健，我們的資產負債表仍然非常強勁。就我們的現金狀況而言，截至第二季末，我們的現金總額已達到 664 億美元，比去年同期高出約 280 億美元。我們的債務增加到 60 億美元，總資產約為 370-3750 億美元，比去年同期增長了約 11％。第二季折舊攤提金額約新台幣140億元，去年同期為119億元。本季總資本支出約 104 億美元，去年同期為 183 億美元。我們第二季的 ROE (經年化後) 約為 11.2%，而去年第二季為 6.6%。我們的資產報酬率為 9.5%，去年為 5.6%。

On the sequential comparison basis, if you compare to our -- our first quarter this year and our growth rate in terms of revenue is roughly 23%. This 23% basically is what we have stated that the wafer shipments have already grown 20%. Also we see a modest increase in terms of ASP that would compare the second quarter ASP versus the first quarter. Due to the increase of wafer shipment, our utilization grew from the first quarter's 67% to as high as 85% second quarter. And our gross margin grew from 34% first quarter to 37%. Gross profit also grew 37% from first quarter.

以環比比較，如果與今年第一季相比，我們的營收成長率約為 23%。這個23%基本上就是我們所說的晶圓出貨量已經成長了20%。我們也看到，與第一季相比，第二季的平均銷售價格略有上漲。由於晶圓出貨量的增加，我們的利用率從第一季的67%成長到第二季的85%。我們的毛利率從第一季的34%成長到37%。毛利也較第一季成長了37%。

On the operating expenses. second quarter operating expenses is roughly 44.5 billion -- I'm sorry 4.45 billion which is roughly 10% of the total revenue versus 11% in the first quarter. Our operating income is 11.9 billion which is 46% higher than first quarter. After tax 5.3 which is also roughly 41% higher than first quarter.

關於營業費用。第二季的營運費用約為 445 億美元——準確的說是 44.5 億美元，約佔總收入的 10%，而第一季為 11%。我們的營業收入為119億，比第一季高出46%。稅後 5.3，也比第一季高出約 41%。

Also let's take a look at the balance sheet and cash flow on a sequential basis. On a sequential basis, actually we don't see a significant change except that we see that we have a higher cash balance at end of second quarter. And also amortization, which increased from first quarter's 12.8 to 14 in the second quarter. Capital expenditure last quarter was 6.6 billion NT, and this quarter is 10.4. ROE increased from first quarter 5.4 to a second quarter 11.2. ROA also increased from 8.1 to 9.5%.

我們也讓我們按順序看一下資產負債表和現金流量。從連續性來看，實際上我們並沒有看到顯著的變化，只是我們看到第二季末的現金餘額更高。攤銷也從第一季的 12.8 增加到第二季的 14。上季資本支出66億新台幣，本季則為104億新台幣。ROE 從第一季的 5.4 上升至第二季的 11.2。ROA 也從 8.1% 增加到 9.5%。

Let's take a look at the business side in the second quarter. First we going to see is the revenue break down by terms of technology. As you can see from this graph, that actually our .13 is roughly one percent, which is the red color on the top. So one percent of total revenue in first quarter and second quarter also one percent. And almost 5 -- 30% first quarter, actually it was down a little bit to 29%.

我們來看看第二季的業務方面。首先我們要看到的是按技術劃分的收入分佈。從該圖可以看出，實際上我們的 .13 大約是百分之一，也就是頂部的紅色。因此第一季和第二季的總收入各佔 1%。第一季幾乎成長了 5-30%，實際上略有下降，至 29%。

In terms of absolute dollars, actually also continue to went up. Eventually they went up 19%. So on the .13, I just stated, although it stay at one percent, actually the actual dollar value does goes up roughly 23%. .18, stay flat 22%, which means dollar value 23% growth. .25 actually came down from 25% to 23%. Dollar wise, actually they went up 14%. .35 go up from 13% to 14%. So dollar wise it means it go up about 33%. And the .5 from 9% first quarter to 11%, so dollar wise went up roughly 51%. So that's the revenue breakdown by technology.

從絕對美元來看，實際上也繼續上漲。最終，股價上漲了 19%。因此關於 0.13，我剛才說過，雖然它保持在 1%，但實際上美元的實際價值確實上漲了約 23%。.18，持平22%，這意味著美元價值成長23%。.25 實際上從 25% 下降到了 23%。從美元角度來看，實際上上漲了 14%。.35 從 13% 上升至 14%。因此從美元角度來看，這意味著它將上漲約 33%。從第一季的 9% 上升到 11%，因此美元上漲了約 51%。這就是按技術劃分的收入分佈。

And if we look at the different applications in terms of computer communication and consumers, and we will see actually we see fairly significant change, actually in the second quarter. Here, let's see. At this time I wanted to [INAUDIBLE] from the bottom.. The bottom, the purple color. The first quarter was computer was 56%. We come to the second quarter this is 45% on the computer. And then the green color -- the green color which is the communications was 18% actually in first quarter, they go up quite a bit to 26% on the second quarter. When you go up to 26% dollar wise that means it went up close to 80%. Consumer from 21% to 23%. Memory from 2% to 3%. Others remain flat at roughly 3%. So that's very significant change in terms of the sales break down by computer and the communications.

如果我們從電腦通訊和消費者的角度來觀察不同的應用，我們會發現，實際上在第二季度，我們會看到相當顯著的變化。來，我們看看。這時我想從底部[聽不清楚]。底部是紫色。第一季計算機佔56%。到了第二季度，電腦佔比達到 45%。然後是綠色 — — 綠色代表通訊，在第一季實際上佔 18%，而在第二季度則大幅上升至 26%。當美元匯率上漲至 26% 時，這意味著它上漲了近 80%。消費者從21%降至23%。記憶體從 2% 到 3%。其他國家則保持平穩，約 3%。因此，從電腦和通訊領域的銷售分佈來看，這是一個非常重大的變化。

Let me talk a little bit more about these segments. Actually, during the quarter we see, actually on the computer side, I think the weakening application side area of graphics and chip sets, the area that still show pretty good gross momentum is flat panel display as well as [INAUDIBLE]. On the communication segment, actually [INAUDIBLE] wireless. The wire line show good growth momentum during the second quarter. The strongest sub segment is still coming from the wireless segment. Primarily on the mobile phone hand set, on the wireless LAN, as well as cordless phone. The wireless have good gross. And their gross area are in the area of Ethernet switch, network interface card, as well as ADSL.

讓我進一步談談這些部分。實際上，在本季度我們看到，實際上在電腦方面，我認為圖形和晶片組的應用方面領域正在減弱，而仍然顯示出相當好的整體勢頭的領域是平板顯示器以及[聽不清楚]。在通訊領域，其實是 [聽不清楚] 無線。有線業務在第二季度表現出良好的成長勢頭。最強大的細分市場仍然來自無線市場。主要在行動電話機上，在無線區域網路上，以及無線電話上。無線網路整體不錯。它們的總面積主要分佈在乙太網路交換器、網路卡以及ADSL領域。

On the consumer side, actually have stated this from 21 to 23%. dollar wise it means it's 35% growth. The stronger sub segment are in the areas of the DVD, VCD, digital camera, set up box. These are the growth areas.

在消費者方面，實際上已經有 21% 至 23% 的人表示了這一比例。從美元角度來看這意味著35%的成長。較強的子細分市場包括 DVD、VCD、數位相機和機上盒領域。這些是成長領域。

Let's go on to the next one in terms of geographic distribution. We don't see a lot of change in terms of geographical distribution. Actually, North American continues to be the dominant segment of geographic distributions in second quarter. North American account for 79% of the total revenue. Europe stay at straight. Asia Pacific actually went down a little bit from 14 to 12. Japan go up from 5 to 6%.

我們繼續按地理分佈討論下一個問題。從地理分佈方面來看，我們沒有看到太大的變化。實際上，北美仍然是第二季地理分佈的主導部分。北美佔總收入的79%。歐洲保持平直。亞太地區實際上從 14 位略有下降，降至 12 位。日本則上漲5%至6%。

Next if we look at distribution between Fabless and the IDMs, then we will see actually the IDM actually grow a little bit actually on the second quarter. The IDM actually grew from the first quarter's 21% to 26%, which actually is pretty good growth in terms of the distributions. The Fabless from 73 to 7 -- 78 down to 73. But still I think they are the dominant segment during the second quarter.

接下來，如果我們看一下Fabless和IDM之間的分佈，那麼我們實際上會看到IDM在第二季度實際上有所成長。IDM 實際上從第一季的 21% 增長到了 26%，從分佈來看這實際上是相當不錯的增長。無晶圓廠數量從 73 家減至 7 家——從 78 家減至 73 家。但我仍然認為他們是第二季的主導部分。

And then on the Fab utilization and the ASP trend, I have already indicated that the second quarter utilization was 85%, big jump from the 67%. And first quarter ASP was essentially flat. So we see a modest growth in terms of ASP in the second quarter versus the first quarter.

然後關於 Fab 利用率和 ASP 趨勢，我已經指出第二季的利用率為 85%，比 67% 大幅增加。第一季的平均售價基本持平。因此，我們看到第二季的平均銷售價格與第一季相比略有成長。

Next one we are going to give you this table which will outline the store capacity by different Fabs. We are going to tell you that what we have at end of June, and what we plan to have at end of December. You will see two columns of separate -- the right-hand side column on December is actually what we have gave you during last conference call, but I think we change modest in terms of our plans. The most noticeable I think for the Fab 12 originally it was meant to be 13,000 wafers per month end of this year. We actually revised that down a little bit to 10,000 wafers. Basically to cope with the demand situation, and I think it takes a little bit longer for the customers to jump into the 12-inch. So I think you have all those numbers and I will not bore you with that. I think you can look at that later on.

接下來我們將為您提供這個表格，其中概述了不同 Fab 的商店容量。我們將告訴您我們在六月底擁有什麼，以及我們計劃在十二月底擁有什麼。您將看到兩列單獨的數據——右側的 12 月數據實際上是我們在上次電話會議中提供給您的數據，但我認為我們的計劃會略有改變。我認為最引人注目的是Fab 12最初計劃在今年年底前每月生產13,000片晶圓。實際上，我們將其略微下調至 10,000 片晶圓。基本上是為了應對需求情況，我認為客戶需要更長的時間才能進入 12 英寸。所以我想你已經知道了所有這些數字，我不會用這些數字來煩你。我想您可以稍後再看看。

Last one we going to talk to you about are overall capacity plans. And basically this graph will give you an idea where we stand in terms of our most advanced technologies, which actually is the orange one there. Down on the bottom is .13 the blue one is .15. And the red one is .18. As you can see, they grew quite rapidly, actually in the last several quarters. For this quarter -- or for last quarter, actually for .18 and more advanced technology, they accounted for roughly 30% of our total capacity.

我們最後要和您討論的是整體容量計劃。基本上，這張圖表會讓你了解我們在最先進技術方面的立場，實際上就是那個橙色的技術。底部的是.13，藍色的是.15。紅色的是.18。正如你所看到的，實際上在過去幾個季度裡，它們的成長相當迅速。就本季或上季而言，實際上對於 0.18 和更先進的技術而言，它們約占我們總產能的 30%。

And as we indicated, at that time, we think that the .18 and advance would account for 47% of our total capacity by the end of this year. And we have also realized a little bit right now we plan to have about 42% of our total capacity in .18 advanced technology at the end of this year. With that, I think the last, actually we have a basically a recap of the major events that happened in the second quarter this year. And, again, I think I will not read through each one of them.

正如我們當時指出的那樣，我們認為到今年年底，.18 和預付款將占我們總產能的 47%。我們現在也意識到了一點，我們計劃在今年年底將總產能的 42% 左右用於 0.18 先進技術。最後，我認為我們實際上基本上回顧一下今年第二季度發生的重大事件。而且，我想我不會逐一讀完它們。

But I do want to mention the bullet point regarding the independent directors that in May, during our shareholder meetings, that we have elected two additional members of the board which are Mr. Lester Thurow a professor at MIT. And Peter Bonfield former CEO of British Telecom to serve as our independent director. Also we have invited Mr. Michael Porter to join our supervisory group. And this are done, I think, certainly with the purpose or objective to further enhance our corporate governance structure.

但我確實想提一下關於獨立董事的要點，在 5 月份的股東大會上，我們選舉了另外兩名董事會成員，他們是麻省理工學院的教授 Lester Thurow 先生。英國電信前執行長 Peter Bonfield 擔任我們的獨立董事。我們也邀請了麥可波特先生加入我們的監管小組。我認為，我們這樣做的目的或目標肯定是為了進一步加強我們的公司治理結構。

Also, I think our chairman, Morris Chang, during today's conference call he has indicated that it is our plan to submit to the board that will be held in August this year, that we are going to form an audit committee under the board, at our August board meeting, and the audit committee will consist of three to four members. They will be primarily be independent directors as well as members of our supervisory board. [ INAUDIBLE ] and they were elected as the chairman for audit committee, so we don't know who that person is going to be. We will certainly, I think, keep all our shareholders posted on the development on their side. Now, I think actually we talk about second quarter also maybe I will let Rick talk a little bit about our coming quarter guidance. Rick, I hand over the floor to you.

另外，我記得我們的董事長張忠謀在今天的電話會議中已經表示，我們計劃在今年8月份的董事會會議上提交給董事會，我們將在8月份的董事會會議上成立一個董事會下的審計委員會，該委員會將由三到四名成員組成。他們主要擔任獨立董事以及我們的監事會成員。[聽不清楚] 他們被選為審計委員會主席，所以我們不知道那個人是誰。我認為，我們一定會向所有股東通報他們方面的進展。現在，我認為我們實際上談論的是第二季度，也許我會讓里克談談我們下一季的指導。里克，我把發言權交給你。

All right. I think the - good morning, good evening. I think the guidance we are giving out for the third quarter is as follows. One, the shift in customer demand to communications and consumer applications during second quarter 2002 is expected to continue into the third quarter. Second, the amount of wafers shipped will be off modestly by about a low single digit percentage rate on a sequential basis. Three, ASP will be 5% lower sequential, due to the product mix shift. Four, gross margin will be adversely impacted by the depreciation in the U.S. dollar. We have assumed a U.S. dollar depreciation of 5% in the third quarter, compared to the second quarter. In that case our gross margin may be reduced by about 2.2% due to this factor alone.. Number 5, overall capacity utilization rate will be in the low 70's, due to both softening demand on the back of it, and also we also have an increase in our capacity by about 11.5%, compared to the second quarter. With the result of the softening demand, we have lowered our Cap-X in 2002 to below U.S. 2 billion. We also, the last one is that, July revenue will be seasonably lower compared to June. That's our guidance for the third quarter. We are ready to answer some questions.

好的。我認為——早上好，晚上好。我認為我們對第三季給出的指導如下。一是2002年第二季客戶需求向通訊和消費應用的轉變預計會持續到第三季。其次，晶圓出貨量將與上一季相比略有下降，降幅約為個位數的百分比。三，由於產品結構的變化，平均售價將比上一季下降 5%。四、美元貶值將對毛利率產生不利影響。我們預計第三季美元將較第二季貶值5%。那麼，僅由於這個因素，我們的毛利率就可能減少約 2.2%。第五，由於需求疲軟，整體產能利用率將在 70% 以下，與第二季相比，我們的產能也增加了約 11.5%。由於需求疲軟，我們在 2002 年將 Cap-X 降低至 20 億美元以下。我們也指出，最後一個因素是，7 月的收入將比 6 月季節性下降。這是我們對第三季的預測。我們已準備好回答一些問題。

On the July revenue because, according to the Taiwan regulation, actually before the 10th of each following month, we will announce the revenue number of July which is roughly two weeks from now. And I think Morris has actually indicated that this afternoon that we, right now, our forecast show that July will be lower number, and -- but he asks people to relax. Don't get panicked because on an overall basis, it is sort of turns out the percentage of falling is a little bit high, but is not going to be accelerated. So I think we just want to give you that forewarning and ask you not to panic about when you see the July number.

關於7月份的收入，因為根據台灣的規定，實際上在每個月的10號之前，我們都會公佈7月份的收入數字，大約是兩週後。我認為莫里斯今天下午實際上已經表示，我們目前的預測顯示七月份的數字將會較低，而且——但他請大家放鬆。不要驚慌，因為從整體來看，下跌的比例有點高，但不會加速。所以我認為我們只是想給你一個預警，並請你在看到七月份的數字時不要驚慌。

The other thing I think I can compliment on Rick's guidance, is that during the Q & A sessions that people further ask about these trends, the demand switching to communication and consumer and the weakening demand from computer segment and how significant is this. And we have seen that the computer first quarter 56% and fall to 45%. And I have indicated in the afternoon I think the computer segment weighting will probably fall to below 33%, and the weighting on communications will actually go up more than 1/3 during the second quarter I think that's an indication on the trend. So with all that I think that -- Rick I don't know, you have any other complimentary commentary? Otherwise we'll just open the floor for questions.

我認為我可以讚揚 Rick 的指導的另一件事是，在問答環節中，人們進一步詢問這些趨勢，需求轉向通訊和消費者以及電腦領域的需求減弱以及這有多重要。而我們看到計算機第一季的56%又下滑到了45%。我在下午已經指出，我認為電腦部門的權重可能會降至 33% 以下，而通訊部門的權重實際上在第二季度將上升超過 1/3，我認為這表明了趨勢。因此，我認為——里克，我不知道，你還有其他補充評論嗎？否則，我們就開放提問環節。

No, let's go to the questions I think.

不，我們來談談我所認為的問題。

Thank you. At this time we will open the floor for questions. If you would like to ask a question, please press the star one keys on your touch tone phone now. Questions will be taken in the order in which they are received. Please limit your questions to one at a time to allow all participants an opportunity to ask questions of the management members. Our first question comes from Bavan Shaw of J.P. Morgan.

謝謝。現在我們將開始接受提問。如果您想提問，請立即按下按鍵電話上的星號鍵。我們將按照收到問題的順序進行處理。請將您的問題限制為一次一個，以便所有參與者都有機會向管理層成員提問。我們的第一個問題來自摩根大通的 Bavan Shaw。

Yes. I just -- a couple of questions. In terms of the tax expense, would it be fair for me to assume that it's noncash? In other words your cash tax expenses is roughly one to two percent and this is just a matter of timing, in other words in some quarters you have tax credit, but this quarter you have tax expense. So I was wondering if you could add some more color on that? And second question was with respect to the change in the Cap-X plan, any thought you have on capacity outlook next year? That would be helpful. Thanks.

是的。我只是——有幾個問題。就稅費而言，我可以假設它是非現金的嗎？換句話說，您的現金稅費大約是百分之一到二，這只是一個時間問題，換句話說，在某些季度您有稅收抵免，但這個季度您有稅費。所以我想知道您是否可以添加更多顏色？第二個問題是關於 Cap-X 計畫的變化，您對明年的產能前景有何看法？那將會很有幫助。謝謝。

We are having a big echo there.

我們在那裡聽到了很大的迴響。

Hello?

你好？

Hello?

你好？

hello?

你好？

Hello?

你好？

Can you hear me now?

現在你能聽到我的聲音嗎？

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Okay. That's fine. I think -- I got your question, but there was a big echo there.

好的。沒關係。我想——我明白你的問題了，但是反應很大。

Okay.

好的。

First of all I want to say I am impressed each time you must be waiting on the line for half an hour to get on first in the question line. I am very impressed with that. And so, let me say, your question is about tax expense, the other is about what?

首先我想說，每次你們都要等上半小時才能在提問隊列中排到第一個，這讓我印象深刻。我對此印象非常深刻。那麼，讓我說一下，您的問題是關於稅費，另一個問題是關於什麼？

Capacity.

容量。

About capacity. Okay. Let me talk a little bit about the tax expense. Well, basically I think that the tax expense is going to be on an increasing mode primarily because that we have several fabs that continue to be graduating from the tax holidays. The tax benefit we got from -- during these new Fabs, they are two-fold. One is so-called tax credit. That is one-time credit when you [INAUDIBLE] a new investment. That the government will allow a certain percentages of the investment to be able to offset the tax you are going to pay.

關於容量。好的。我先簡單講一下稅費問題。嗯，基本上我認為稅收費用將呈增加趨勢，主要是因為我們有幾家晶圓廠即將結束免稅期。在這些新晶圓廠建設期間，我們獲得的稅收優惠是雙重的。一是所謂的稅收抵免。當你[聽不清楚]進行一項新投資時，這是一次性信貸。政府將允許一定比例的投資來抵銷您要繳納的稅金。

And the second one is something like a five-year holiday. Tax holiday. And many of our fabs, for example Fab 3, Fab 4, actually also according to the different expansion stage, they are gradually graduating from big tax holidays. The rules of the tax holiday are fairly stringent, and they are quite ridged rules and not that flexible. So whenever the demand I think pick up, I think if we are busy trying to coping with the customers' requests, and I think we try to get all the Fabs running and we can't really think too much of that. Therefore, those older Fabs -- not older, more maturing Fabs who are -- which will be able to afford some tax. And when that happens, they have to pay a little bit more tax. So I think looking forward, I think certainly I think you will see that our tax expense increasing. Hello?

第二個就像是五年假期。免稅假期。而我們的許多晶圓廠，例如Fab 3、Fab 4，實際上也根據不同的擴張階段，正逐步脫離大型免稅期。免稅假期的規定相當嚴格，而且是相當死板的規定，不太靈活。因此，每當需求增加時，我想如果我們忙於應對客戶的要求，我們會嘗試讓所有晶圓廠運作起來，我們不能想太多。因此，那些較老的晶圓廠——而不是較老、較成熟的晶圓廠——將能夠承擔一些稅。當這種情況發生時，他們就必須多繳一點稅。因此我認為展望未來，我肯定會看到我們的稅費增加。你好？

Yes. I'm here.

是的。我在這裡。

Okay. Good. I have a strange sound here so bear with me for one minute. Can you hear me?

好的。好的。我這裡發出了奇怪的聲音，所以請忍耐一下一分鐘。你聽得到我嗎？

Yes. Hello? Okay? Are you okay? Hello?

是的。你好？好的？你還沒有事嗎？你好？

Yes. Yes, Rick, can you talk about the Fabs?

是的。是的，瑞克，你可以談談 Fabs 嗎？

Yes. Yes. Sure. Can you hear me?

是的。是的。當然。你聽得到我嗎？

Yes, I can. Please.

是的，我可以。請。

Sure, this is not a trick. [ LAUGHTER ]. To avoid answering the question. We are, as you can imagine, we are actually right now looking at our capacity for next year, real time as Morris said earlier in the afternoon. Actually we had a meeting in the morning. So I don't really have a number for you, but what I can say is the -- we certainly will continue investing in 21 Micron in both 8-inch and 12-inch. But most of the investment will be in 12-inch next year because most of the 8-inch investment will be completed probably by end of this year or early next year. We do not really plan to invest in anything below or greater than [INAUDIBLE] . We -- the pace of the 12 inch ramp up is also slowing down somewhat, really pending on the vicious environment. We need a little time to get some better visibility, we hope, into next year. So, again, these all constitute the basis for reduction of the Cap-X to below 2 billion this year. We will probably have a much better idea in our next conference call. Okay.

當然，這不是什麼詭計。[笑聲]為了避免回答問題。正如你所想像的，我們實際上現在正在實時考慮明年的產能，正如莫里斯在下午早些時候所說的那樣。實際上我們早上有一個會議。所以我真的無法給你一個具體數字，但我可以說的是——我們肯定會繼續在 8 英寸和 12 英寸領域投資 21 美光。但明年大部分投資將集中在 12 英寸，因為大部分 8 英寸投資可能將在今年年底或明年年初完成。我們實際上不打算投資低於或高於 [聽不清楚] 的任何項目。我們 - 12 吋產能提升的速度也正在放緩，這確實取決於惡劣的環境。我們需要一點時間來獲得更好的可見性，我們希望，到明年。所以，這些都是今年將 Cap-X 削減至 20 億以下的基礎。我們可能會在下次電話會議中提出更好的想法。好的。

But we need to come back to this tax expense. Basically they are gradually increasing up. So for --

但我們需要回到這個稅費問題。基本上都是逐漸增加的。因此——

Uh-huh.

嗯嗯。

So forth year, I think on the -- on the tax expense, and I'm not sure what would be a very good number. I think maybe you can use something like, I say maybe 10%. I think you should not be too far from it.

所以第四年，我認為在稅收費用方面，我不確定什麼是一個很好的數字。我認為也許您可以使用類似這樣的數字，比如說 10%。我想你應該不會離它太遠。

I see. Would that 10% be close to the actual cash tax you would have to pay? Or that's -- that's my -- that's what I was trying to direct.

我懂了。這 10% 是否接近您必須支付的實際現金稅？或者這就是 — — 這就是我的 — — 這就是我試圖指導的。

Yes, probably.

是的，可能吧。

Thanks.

謝謝。

Thank you. Our next question comes from David Wu of Wedbush Morgan securities.

謝謝。我們的下一個問題來自 Wedbush Morgan 證券公司的 David Wu。

Good evening, gentlemen. Can you help us on two things? Number one is, what have you been seeing lately, i.e., in the month of May or June, in terms of customers scaling back their forecast for the September quarter? And the second question I have is, at this point, given your lead times, do you have any first clue about the outlook for demand in the month of September?

先生們，晚上好。您能在兩件事上幫助我們嗎？第一，您最近看到什麼情況，例如在五月或六月，客戶是否下調了對九月季度的預測？我的第二個問題是，考慮到您的交貨時間，您是否對九月份的需求前景有任何初步的線索？

Um -- okay. The last couple months certainly the company in the PCs area is [INAUDIBLE] They have also a much less visibility going into the next quarter. People in general believe that the third quarter will be better than the second quarter by maybe 10%. Maybe a little better 10 to 15%. But they all believe that the growth for the third quarter will be weaker compared to the historical track record.

嗯--好的。過去幾個月，PC 領域的公司確實 [聽不清楚]他們對下一季的預測也更加不確定。人們普遍認為第三季會比第二季好10%左右。也許更好一點，10%到15%。但他們都認為，第三季的成長將低於歷史記錄。

For the communications, I think because of the general business environment, and all the noises, all the issues from the corporate scandals, people are now also getting less certain compared to a couple months ago. With our lead time, our outlook for September is, you know, we still have about two months of visibility and that's why we are giving our guidance for third quarter as I just said earlier on.

就溝通而言，我認為由於整體商業環境、各種噪音以及公司醜聞帶來的所有問題，與幾個月前相比，人們現在變得不那麼確定了。由於我們的交貨時間，我們對 9 月的展望是，我們仍然有大約兩個月的可見性，這就是我們給出第三季度指引的原因，正如我之前所說的。

Thank you.

謝謝。

All right.

好的。

Thank you. Our next question comes from Mark Fitzgerald of Banc of America Securities.

謝謝。我們的下一個問題來自美國銀行證券公司的馬克·菲茨杰拉德。

Thank you. I was wondering if you could make some comment about the outlook for 300 millimeter and pulling back on that. What that says about your view for the growth rate for the semi-conductor business in '03, given the lead times for 300 millimeter?

謝謝。我想知道您是否可以對 300 毫米的前景及其後退做出一些評論。考慮到 300 毫米的交貨時間，您對 2003 年半導體業務的成長率有何看法？

Um -- your question is about the 300 millimeter lead time, or it's about --?

嗯 — — 您的問題是關於 300 毫米的前置時間，或者是關於 — —？

No, it's given -- I'm curious -- if you are pulling in 300 millimeter spending, obviously it has very long lead times. That must say something about your view of what the semi-conductor industry's growth rate and what your growth rates for 2003 are.

不，這是給定的——我很好奇——如果你投入 300 毫米的資金，顯然它的交貨時間會非常長。這肯定反映了您對半導體產業成長率的看法以及您們 2003 年的成長率。

Oh. I want to be careful in my statement about 300 millimeter investment for next year. What I said, we will invest mostly in 300 millimeters and of course .13 micron technology. However the pace of our 300 millimeter ramp rate will be slower than what we planned say a few months earlier. Am I making that clear?

哦。我想對明年的300毫米投資聲明保持謹慎。我說過，我們將主要投資於 300 毫米和 0.13 微米技術。然而，我們的 300 毫米產量提升速度將比幾個月前的計畫要慢。我說清楚了嗎？

Yes. No, I understand. But, I mean if you are slowing it, that does say you are looking down the road and seeing you don't need as much capacity in '03 if you are slowing it today. So I was just wondering what that meant for your view of the growth rate for the industry and for TSMC's revenue opportunity in '03?

是的。不，我明白。但是，我的意思是，如果你放慢速度，那就表明你正在展望未來，並且會發現如果你今天放慢速度，那麼在 2003 年你就不需要那麼大的容量。所以我只是想知道這對您對產業成長率和台積電 2003 年營收機會的看法意味著什麼？

Well, Mark, you know, when you look at our capacity end of this year, we still have 10,000 wafers, which means that's 22,000 wafers in terms of 8-inch equipment. That's quite a bit of wafers. I think what we are saying here is that we have sort of slowed down, a little bit, in terms of coming up with the capacity in 12-inch for this year. And this is primarily because, in terms of customers' intent to switch, to jump into 12-inch they are not as enthusiastic as we think they are going to be. In a way it's also understandable because this is something new. And basically everybody is waiting for others to come in first. There's a Chinese proverb saying that the dumb bird will fly first. They are all waiting for the dumb bird, and then they can follow. And also I think they have less confidence. They really don't want to go through the hassle of trying to go through the qualification and try to wait for the year to get stabilized, which is all a lot of work. So basically, I think they are not as fast in responding to this switching to 12-inch. But I don't think that is real reflection on the 2003. Actually on the other hand, you can see that we have sensed this, actually, for awhile. That's one reason, why actually we have added a little bit more 8-inch. Because we worry that if people are not switching to 12-inch and if we don't have enough 8, they will go to others.

嗯，馬克，你知道，當你看我們今年年底的產能時，我們仍然有 10,000 片晶圓，這意味著 8 英寸設備有 22,000 片晶圓。那是相當多的晶圓。我想我們在這裡要說的是，就今年 12 吋的產能而言，我們的速度已經有所放慢。這主要是因為，就客戶轉換意願而言，他們對於使用 12 吋產品的熱情並不如我們想像的那麼高。某種程度上來說這也是可以理解的，因為這是一件新事物。基本上每個人都在等待別人先進來。中國有句諺語說：笨鳥先飛。他們都在等待那隻愚蠢的鳥，然後他們就可以跟隨。而且我認為他們缺乏信心。他們真的不想經歷通過資格審查的麻煩，也不想等待一年的穩定，因為這需要大量的工作。所以基本上，我認為他們對切換到 12 英寸的反應不夠快。但我不認為這是對 2003 年的真實反映。實際上，另一方面，你可以看到，我們實際上已經感覺到這一點有一段時間了。這就是我們實際上增加了一點 8 英寸的原因之一。因為我們擔心，如果人們不轉用 12 吋並且我們的 8 吋庫存又不夠，他們就會轉而使用其他產品。

Do you still subscribe then to the SIA's forecast of I think it's 20 or 25% type of growth rates for the semi-conductor industry in '03 then? Is that what you are planning your own business around?

那麼您是否仍同意 SIA 的預測，我認為 2003 年半導體產業的成長率將達到 20% 或 25%？這就是您所規劃的自己的事業嗎？

Yes, Rick, why don't you.

是的，瑞克，你為什麼不呢？

Yes. I think Morris commented in the afternoon, that the -- we now believe the growth rate for semi-conductor industry will be lower than that number you just mentioned from SIA. However, we continue to believe that the TSMC's growth rate will be higher than the semi-conductor growth rate. We will have shown you for this year.

是的。我認為莫里斯下午評論說——我們現在認為半導體行業的增長率將低於您剛才提到的 SIA 的數字。不過，我們仍然相信台積電的成長率將高於半導體的成長率。今年我們將向您展示這一點。

Okay. And just one more question to follow-on. The comment that a lot of your customers are not willing to go through the expense and the heart ache of going to 300 millimeter. Is that a decision that on an outlook for their own business? Because obviously the cost advantages have been -- would suggest that it's pretty strong economic argument for going to 300 millimeters. So I don't quite understand given the pricing environment now, why they wouldn't want 300 millimeter technology?

好的。還有一個問題要繼續問。很多客戶都不願意花費巨額資金和心力去實現 300 毫米的尺寸。這是基於他們自身業務前景的決定嗎？因為顯然成本優勢已經顯現——這表明採用 300 毫米具有相當強的經濟理由。所以我不太明白，考慮到現在的定價環境，為什麼他們不想要 300 毫米技術？

The cost environment, basically we are talking about when the thing get mature. When it has fully ramp. And so that's two years from now. That's why, I think that, we are talking about the dumb bird fly first. Everybody wants to enjoy the benefit, but nobody wants to pay the expense.

成本環境，基本上我們談論的是事物成熟時的情況。當其已完全坡道時。那是從現在起的兩年後。這就是為什麼我認為，我們首先討論的是愚蠢的鳥飛。人人都想享受利益，卻沒人願意付出代價。

Okay. Fair enough. Thank you.

好的。很公平。謝謝。

Thank you. Our next question comes from Shakar Prumanik of Prudential.

謝謝。我們的下一個問題來自 Prudential 的 Shakar Prumanik。

Hi. Good evening. Just two questions. Do you still expect, at this point, that we should see a Q4 being somewhat better than Q3? At least some kind of a seasonal trend?

你好。晚安.僅兩個問題。您現在是否仍預期第四季的表現會比第三季有所好轉？至少是某種季節性趨勢？

We certainly don't have any reason to challenging that statement.

我們當然沒有任何理由質疑這個說法。

Okay. Do you -- I mean, based on, you know, client viewpoint, I mean, are you seeing any kind of wafer starts which are improving from these levels in the next three or four weeks?

好的。您是否 - 我的意思是，基於客戶的觀點，您是否看到任何類型的晶圓開工量在未來三到四周內從這些水平有所改善？

Wafer starting improvement is--

晶圓起始改良是--

Which will be out into Q4, or you -- currently you are not expecting your wafer starts to improve in the next few weeks?

哪些會在第四季度推出，或者您 - 目前您不預計您的晶圓會在接下來的幾週內開始改善？

What do you think, Rick? I don't think so. What do you think, Rick?

你怎麼看，瑞克？我不這麼認為。你怎麼看，瑞克？

Well, our lead time is roughly two months. So our wafer start right now is in the September out period. We have some limited visibility into early fourth quarter, but I think it's too early to tell right now.

嗯，我們的準備時間大約是兩個月。因此，我們現在的晶圓生產是在九月。我們對第四季初期的預測有限，但我認為現在下結論還為時過早。

But you are still hopeful that Q4 will be better than Q3?

但您仍然希望第四季的表現會比第三季更好嗎？

Always.

總是。

O.K. The second question, you know, on ASP trend, what needs to happen to see the, you know, ASP starts to move up? Is that of course more 1.3 loading. Could we start to see that in Q4?

好的。第二個問題，就 ASP 趨勢而言，需要發生什麼才能看到 ASP 開始上漲？這當然是更多的 1.3 加載。我們能在第四季開始看到這一點嗎？

We don't know yet. We do have a number of customers that not only [INAUDIBLE] also we start to ship them commercial volume quantities on a .13. But I don't see that they can be sort of a holding factor to sort of hold up the ASP. Certainly the total volume of .13 I think, is still low compared to overall. And what we see here is primarily, I think, as you see, that the drop of .15 and .18. And hopefully that we will see more advanced application users coming back asking for more wafers.

我們還不知道。我們確實有許多客戶，不僅 [聽不清楚]，我們也開始以 0.13 的價格向他們運送商業批量產品。但我不認為它們可以成為支撐 ASP 的某種限制因素。當然，我認為，0.13 的總量與總體相比仍然較低。我認為，我們在這裡主要看到的是 0.15 和 0.18 的下降。我們希望看到更多高級應用程式用戶回來要求更多的晶圓。

Great. And one more question. If you could update us a little bit on the copper and .13 yield issues, there's a lot of speculation on that front.

偉大的。還有一個問題。如果可以向我們稍微介紹一下銅和 .13 產量問題的話，這方面有很多猜測。

You are asking me .13 yield issue?.

您問我.13 產量問題嗎？

No, I mean, whether the use of copper use of, you know at level which are normal at this point, or are they lower than normal? Some kind of commentary?

不，我的意思是，您知道現在銅的使用量處於正常水平嗎，或者是否低於正常水平？某種評論？

Oh, okay. I think the -- actually our .13 micron technology proposed, as you know, the use of copper and with the two kinds of dimetric material, FST material and the Lokay (ph) material. Both of the technology has been qualified completely. FST is seeing a pretty high volume production. They yield, you know, most copper [INAUDIBLE] is performing well, up to our expectation. However, also we also agree that as the yield weakens, we can still continue to improve. And we believe as the volume continue to go up, you know, our quarter-to-quarter volume will double during the last two quarters. We believe our learning curve will go down rather quickly. So we are quite confident about the .13 micron production.

哦好的。我認為——實際上我們提出的 0.13 微米技術，如您所知，使用銅和兩種二聚體材料，FST 材料和 Lokay (ph) 材料。這兩項技術均已完全合格。FST 的產量相當高。你知道，它們的產量大多是銅 [聽不清楚]，表現良好，符合我們的預期。不過，我們也同意，隨著殖利率下降，我們仍然可以繼續改善。我們相信，隨著銷售持續上升，我們過去兩季的季度銷售將會翻倍。我們相信我們的學習曲線會下降得相當快。所以我們對0.13微米的生產非常有信心。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Thank you. Our next question comes from Dan Hayler of Merrill Lynch.

謝謝。我們的下一個問題來自美林證券的 Dan Hayler。

Thanks. Can you guys hear me?

謝謝。你們聽得到我的聲音嗎？

Yes.

是的。

Great. Okay. Yeah, just wanted to follow-up on a couple things. First, on the 0.13 first, and 300 millimeter. Is it fair to say if -- on 300 millimeter to bring up that capacity, obviously you would like to bring that up and to utilize that Fab. Is it fair to assume that you may do other geometries other than 0.13 to do that?

偉大的。好的。是的，只是想跟進幾件事。首先，先上0.13，再上300毫米。是否可以這樣說——如果要提高 300 毫米的產能，顯然您希望提高產能並利用該 Fab。是否可以公平地假設您可以做除了 0.13 之外的其他幾何圖形來做到這一點？

You mean for 300 end year?

你是指年底 300 嗎？

Right, 0.15, how high would you go?

對，0.15，你會選擇多高？

We're doing actually Dan, we are doing -- we are not just doing .12 on 300 millimeter.

我們實際上正在做丹，我們正在做 - 我們不只是在 300 毫米上做 .12。

Right, you are doing .18, right.

對，你做的是 .18，對。

You know, .15 and .18's, we are in production for 300 millimeter. And --

您知道，.15 和 .18，我們正在生產 300 毫米的。和 -

Right. And --

正確的。和 -

Yep.

是的。

Okay. So what I'm wondering is, given that, could you -- are you migrating -- can you migrate other customers forward on that to bring up that capacity in order to bring costs down for them?

好的。所以我想知道的是，有鑑於此，您是否可以 - 您正在遷移 - 您是否可以將其他客戶遷移到該位置以提高容量，從而降低他們的成本？

Um -- yes, we have some high volume customers we have already moved to 300 millimeter .15. And we also have customers actually being qualified for .12 micron production right now. It will be qualify the .12 microns, that's what I'm talking about, probably in the next month or at most two.

嗯 - 是的，我們有一些大批量客戶，我們已經轉向 300 毫米 .15。而我們目前也確實有資質進行 0.12 微米生產的客戶。它將達到 0.12 微米的水平，這就是我所說的，可能在下個月或最多兩個月內。

Right. Okay. And then I guess what Harvey's point was, I didn't quite get that. It was just an inconvenience for them -- for these guys to switch over, that they wanted to stick on 8 inch to do that?

正確的。好的。然後我想哈維的觀點是什麼，我不太明白。這對他們來說只是一種不便——對於這些人來說，他們為什麼要堅持使用 8 英寸來做到這一點？

It is inconvenient, as you can imagine. As for any new Fab, assume it's a 8 inch new Fab. Most, you know, customers would like to see other people to go in on that kind of [INAUDIBLE]. And, you know, they qualify and they have to qualify the products with their customers, and so forth and so on. So, you know, now is the 12 inch they have to do the same thing and with [INAUDIBLE]. Higher risk, at the beginning, and they also have to work on together, we are actually working with them together to also to be sure that the back end will be available for them, also.

你可以想像這有多不方便。對於任何新的 Fab，假設它是一個 8 英寸的新 Fab。你知道，大多數顧客都希望看到其他人參與這種 [聽不清楚]。而且您知道，他們必須經過資格審查，並向客戶提供合格的產品，等等。所以，你知道，現在他們必須對 12 英寸做同樣的事情，並且 [聽不清楚]。一開始風險較高，而且他們也必須共同努力，我們實際上正在與他們合作，以確保後端也可以為他們使用。

Okay.

好的。

It's more infrastructure work compared to 8 inch as you can, again, imagine.

你可以想像，與 8 吋相比，它需要更多的基礎設施工作。

O.K., and then what's going to drive you to the, you know to the 10K level with this capacity? What are your level of shipment expectation by the fourth quarter? And what do you think those products would be?

好的，那麼什麼能推動您達到這種容量的 10K 等級呢？您對第四季的出貨量預期是多少？您認為這些產品是什麼？

I think the products will be, again, the high volume ones such as in the PC area, wireless area, some of the other communication products. That's what we move first. And usually what those customers would like to have because they also need flexibility for those technologies.

我認為這些產品將再次成為大批量產品，例如個人電腦領域、無線領域以及一些其他通訊產品。這就是我們首先要採取的行動。通常這些客戶都希望擁有這些技術，因為他們也需要這些技術的彈性。

Okay.

好的。

Bottom line, I think will be a significant amount of that 10K. I cannot say for sure right now, but the -- already now we are utilizing a significant portion of the capacity.

底線是，我認為這將占到那 10,000 的很大一部分。我現在不能肯定地說，但是——現在我們已經在利用相當大一部分的容量。

Okay. Great. And just one more and then I'll go. Harvey, on the comments regarding the stock options today and stock grants, obviously this is a contentious, high-profile issue. The concerns that were raised that you would lose some competitive advantage by expensing your grants or -- I didn't quite understand why there was a pretty firm opinion to not start to, you know, change over to options or to start to account for these.

好的。偉大的。再說一次我就走了。哈維，關於今天的股票選擇權和股票贈與的評論，顯然這是一個有爭議的、備受關注的問題。有人擔心，你會因為支出補助而失去一些競爭優勢——我不太明白為什麼會有如此堅定的意見，不開始轉向選擇權或開始考慮這些問題。

I was joking to Leon this afternoon saying that if you ask that question again, I will tell people that if I'm an investor of your company, I'd like to see all the analyst [INAUDIBLE] cut by half, which will benefit the shareholders..

今天下午我和 Leon 開玩笑說，如果你再問這個問題，我會告訴人們，如果我是貴公司的投資者，我希望看到所有分析師 [聽不清楚] 的薪酬減少一半，這將有利於股東。

Right.

正確的。

It's a little bit like that. Basically, let me -- now let me stop joking and tell you about what Morris means. What it means is that because we have been under -- our compensation system have been under this stock grant for some years --

有一點像那樣。基本上，讓我——現在讓我停止開玩笑並告訴你莫里斯的意思。這意味著，由於我們的薪酬制度多年來一直受到股票獎勵制度的影響，

Right.

正確的。

And so actually and we are not the one who invented this, and actually a lot of the firms in the science park, they are all doing this. So he said -- what he said to the one who asked that question, is that if I follow your advice, I'm afraid 'm going to lose a lot of good people to our competitors. That's what he say.

事實上，我們並不是這項技術的發明者，事實上，科技園區內的許多公司都在這樣做。所以他說——他對提出這個問題的人說，如果我聽從你的建議，我擔心我們會失去很多優秀人才，他們都會流失到我們的競爭對手那裡。他就是這麼說的。

Okay. Would this be -- do you foresee -- what do you see the Taiwan regulatory environment going on this issue?

好的。您是否預見到台灣在這個問題上的監管環境會是怎麼樣？

I don't see the Taiwan regulatory environment is going to do anything about it. Actually not them. If you really want to look deeply into this, actually this stock bonuses involve a lot of the very fundamental system. And the biggest issue I think is on this [ INAUDIBLE ]. Our stock market operate on $10 NT. [ INAUDIBLE ] And your stock market don't. That's the biggest difference. So as long as we operate on a par value system, I think there is a lot of difficulties in terms of doing what you guys have been suggesting. You are not getting stock dividend from the shares you invest in the U.S. But you are getting this from Taiwan. And actually that is basically the same thing.

我不認為台灣的監管環境會對此採取任何措施。事實上不是他們。如果你真的想深入研究這個問題，實際上股票紅利涉及很多非常基本的製度。我認為最大的問題在於這個[聽不清楚]。我們的股票市場以10新台幣運作。[聽不清楚]但你的股市卻不是這樣。這就是最大的差別。所以，只要我們實行平價體系，我認為照你們的建議去做就會有很多困難。您不會從您投資的美國股票中獲得股票紅利。但你是從台灣得到這個的。事實上這基本上是同一件事。

So if you are looking at this year and what I read from the press watching from the T.V. Saying that look, TSMC is distributing 6.5 billion for bonuses to the employees. Meanwhile if you take another look. If that is true, then we have actually distributed 100 billion NT value to the shareholders this year in terms of the stock dividends. It's the same thing. Because we operate on a par value system. So this is actually -- this is not an easy issue. And I'm sure that the regulatory agencies want to talk to them about it, they try to stay away from it because they don't want to deal with it. It's not -- we don't have a perfect solution for it. But longer on basis, I actually think that there will be a gradual shift into the option system, but it just takes time to do it.

所以，如果你看看今年以及我從報紙和電視上看到的內容。說著說著，台積電就拿出65億發給員工獎金。同時如果你再看一下。如果真是這樣的話，今年我們實際上已經以股票紅利的形式，給股東分配了1000億新台幣的價值。這是同樣的事情。因為我們是依照平價體系運作的。所以這實際上——這不是一個容易的問題。我確信監管機構想與他們討論此事，但他們試圖避免此事，因為他們不想處理此事。事實並非如此——我們還沒有完美的解決方案。但從更長遠的角度來看，我實際上認為將會逐步轉向選擇權系統，但這需要時間。

From your perspective, if your competitors in the U.S. in the semi-conductor business started to show these in terms of what it actually -- what the expense is and account for this expense, such that investors could understand it, would TSM, based on that, be willing to at least show on a pro forma basis -- you already do, of course on your ADR, but would you --

從您的角度來看，如果您在美國半導體行業的競爭對手開始展示這些費用，以便投資者能夠理解，那麼 TSM 是否願意至少在形式上展示這些費用？當然，您已經在 ADR 上這樣做了，但是您會嗎？

Our ADR, Dan I'm sorry we do it under our U.S. GAAP.

我們的 ADR，丹，很抱歉，我們是根據美國 GAAP 進行的。

Right.

正確的。

We cannot change our GAAP unless they change it, okay?

除非他們改變，否則我們無法改變我們的 GAAP，好嗎？

Gotcha. But on a quarterly basis, would you be willing to start to show these on your income statements?

明白了。但是按季度計算，您願意開始在損益表上顯示這些內容嗎？

Why? Why should we?

為什麼？我們為什麼要這麼做？

I mean, assuming if your competitors started to do this in the U.S.?

我的意思是，假設你的競爭對手在美國開始這樣做？

As I have explained, our competitor is operating -- they are operating in a country called the United States. So it's natural for them to report their account system under U.S. GAAP. We are operating in a country called ROC. So it's natural for us to operate our accounts under the ROC GAAP. But in order for help the shareholders to understand it, each year we actually spend quite a bit of money, and actually getting our CPAs to spend quite a bit of time to do the recalculations. It's more complex actually than you can imagine. It actually takes them quite a bit of time to do that.

正如我已經解釋過的，我們的競爭對手正在一個叫美國的國家開展業務。因此，他們依照美國公認會計準則報告其帳戶體係是很自然的。我們的業務經營地是中華民國 (ROC)。因此，我們按照中華民國公認會計準則 (GAAP) 來管理我們的帳戶是很自然的。但為了讓股東理解這一點，我們每年實際上花費了相當多的錢，並且實際上讓我們的註冊會計師花了相當多的時間來重新計算。事實上它比你想像的要複雜得多。他們實際上要花相當多的時間才能做到這一點。

To go back to U.S. GAAP, I understand you do that every year. O.K. Thanks a lot.

回到美國公認會計準則，我知道你們每年都會這樣做。好的。多謝。

You're welcome.

不客氣。

Thank you. Our next question comes from Terrance Coke of Casanov.

謝謝。我們的下一個問題來自 Casanov 的 Terrance Coke。

Hi, good evening. Just on average starting prices, your guiding for 5% decline, that's quite a big decline. Can you just tell us, is it primarily due to mix or is there some pricing pressure as well?

嗨，晚上好。僅就平均起始價格而言，您預計下降 5%，這是一個相當大的下降。您能否告訴我們，這主要是由於混合原因還是也存在一些價格壓力？

It is primarily due to the change of the product mix as we have indicated, that the weakening of the computer segment, particularly I think those who use the more advance technology like graphics, chip sets and all that, I think. So actually we expect to see utilization of .18 and .15 to be lower in the third quarter. And as a result we see the weighted average selling price they will also be lower.

正如我們所指出的，這主要是由於產品結構的變化所造成的，即電腦領域的弱化，特別是那些使用更先進技術（如圖形、晶片組等）的電腦領域。因此實際上我們預計第三季的利用率將低於 0.18 和 0.15。因此我們看到加權平均售價也會更低。

Okay. You also saying obviously that the communication chips, at what -- at what [INAUDIBLE] are they fabricated under?.

好的。您還顯然說過，通訊晶片是在什麼 [聽不清楚] 下製造的？

Well, we are talking about a very high diversity of product. I think, Rick, maybe you can compliment that a little bit later. But basically, a couple years ago was when we were talking about communications, I think we are looking primarily at .35, but I think they are switching over to .25, actually a lot of them are being [INAUDIBLE] directly into .18. And, Rick, I think he has talked about it when you look at the .13 customer, actually very good percentage of them are actually in the communications segment. So actually, it's very difficult to generalize it.

嗯，我們談論的是產品的高度多樣性。我想，里克，也許你可以稍後再稱讚這一點。但基本上，幾年前當我們談論通信時，我認為我們主要關注的是 .35，但我認為他們正在切換到 .25，實際上其中很多正在 [聽不清楚] 直接切換到 .18。里克，我認為他已經談論過這個問題，當你看到 0.13 客戶時，實際上他們中很大一部分實際上屬於通訊領域。因此實際上，很難將其概括出來。

Okay. And just finally, on every selling price. I mean, looking at your capacity indications for quarter 4, it looks like you [INAUDIBLE] a lot of lagging edge capacity, for example at Vanguard.. So could we interpret that as you are going to see a lot of older technology growing -- driving your growth in quarter four and therefore average selling price to continue to weaken in quarter four? Thank you.

好的。最後，關於每一個銷售價格。我的意思是，查看您第 4 季的容量指標，看起來您 [聽不清楚] 有很多滯後容量，例如在 Vanguard。那麼我們是否可以將其解讀為，您將看到許多舊技術的成長——推動第四季度的成長，因此平均售價在第四季度繼續走弱？謝謝。

No. That's not a good very good interpretation. Actually Vanguard is independent company. We cannot really dictate all their strategies, but basically what Vanguard did is they had convert some of their existing memory equipment production lines into more suitable [ INAUDIBLE ], which actually have a different configuration. And they are doing this, of course they have seeing that this year, that particularly, I think is very obvious in second quarter the more mature technology demands have picked up. Also I think during the past six to nine months, when we are adding more capacity to our .18, .15 we actually have converted quite a bit of the .35. So Vanguard, I think has sort of s strategic alliance of ours, they think there's an opportunity on the more mature products. So they made an independent decision. But I think once they have converted to say foundry friendly, and they are obviously, they want to make this available to us and they asked us to take these capacity into consideration. We do this, and actually, we will put them [INAUDIBLE], primarily because we want to be consistent, so that you know what's going on. But this is not an indication we think that we do see a serious demand, I think on the more mature technology.

不。這不是一個很好的解釋。實際上 Vanguard 是一家獨立的公司。我們無法真正決定他們的所有策略，但基本上 Vanguard 所做的就是將一些現有的記憶體設備生產線改造成更合適的 [聽不清楚]，實際上具有不同的配置。他們正在這樣做，當然他們已經看到今年的情況，特別是在第二季度，我認為對更成熟的技術的需求有所回升。此外，我認為在過去的六到九個月裡，當我們增加.18、.15的容量時，我們實際上已經轉換了相當一部分.35。所以我認為 Vanguard 與我們形成了某種策略聯盟，他們認為在更成熟的產品上有機會。因此他們做出了獨立的決定。但我認為，一旦他們轉變為對代工廠友好，他們顯然希望讓我們能夠使用它，並要求我們考慮這些能力。我們這樣做，實際上，我們會把它們放在 [聽不清楚] 中，主要是因為我們想要保持一致，這樣你就知道發生了什麼。但這並不表示我們確實看到了嚴重的需求，我認為是在更成熟的技術上。

Okay. Thank you very much.

好的。非常感謝。

Thank you. Our next question comes from Teddy Tye of Morgan Stanley.

謝謝。我們的下一個問題來自摩根士丹利的泰迪泰伊（Teddy Tye）。

Hi. Sorry [INAUDIBLE]. Just two quick questions just want to clarify. First one, when Morris comments on the topic of ROE in the afternoon session. When he mentioned 20%, is that the Company target average 20% return on equity? Or it's become like a pick target? This is the first one. I think, actually. lot of confusion out there and I'm asking is this the pick target or this is the average target? Second one actually also related to some of the information being disclosed by the company. We look our your sales [INAUDIBLE], actually .25 and above the sell actually percentage to sell increased from 47 -- I think 47 to 48% in the second quarter. Your ASP actually increased so what's the reason behind it? Thank you.

你好。抱歉 [聽不清楚]。只想澄清兩個簡單問題。第一個是下午 Morris 對 ROE 主題發表評論。當他提到 20% 時，是否表示公司目標平均 20% 的股本回報率？或者它已經成為了一個挑選目標？這是第一個。我認為，事實上。存在著許多令人困惑的問題，我想問這是選擇目標還是平均目標？第二個其實也與公司揭露的一些資訊有關。我們看你的銷售[聽不清楚]，實際上.25及以上的實際銷售百分比從47％增加 - 我認為第二季度是47％到48％。你們的 ASP 其實增加了，背後的原因是什麼？謝謝。

Let me see. When you talk about ROE thing, [INAUDIBLE] you've been following us for many years and you should know better than I do what we are talking about. We are talking about -- i think we actually -- we are talking about this has been [INAUDIBLE]. And sort of our average basis, and I think for this year it's kind of hard if we try to make that a target.

讓我看看。當你談到 ROE 事情時，[聽不清楚] 你已經關注我們很多年了，你應該比我更清楚我們在談論什麼。我們正在談論——我認為我們實際上——我們正在談論這個已經[聽不清楚]。這是我們的平均基礎，我認為，如果我們今年試圖實現這個目標的話，會比較難。

Yeah. Harvey, I would understand. But I think I have to [INAUDIBLE] know.

是的。哈維，我會理解。但我認為我必須[聽不清楚]知道。

Just want to make sure.

只是想確認一下。

Yes. There's some concern from clients. Yes. Thank you.

是的。客戶有些擔憂。是的。謝謝。

Okay.

好的。

And the second question is regarding the -- yeah, why is this improved under the condition that .25 and above sales increase?

第二個問題是關於——是的，為什麼在 0.25 及以上的銷售額增加的情況下，情況會有所改善？

Rick, do you have a good answer for that?

瑞克，你對此有什麼好的答案嗎？

Actually,. [ INAUDIBLE ] You are reading a bit too much into the T.V. I mean there's a very small increase in the percentage, and there are so many wafers, I think, you know we didn't reach technology node and we have also a spectrum of prices. So, I mean I think it's been very difficult to just -- to say it's a 47 to 48% for the .25 micron and above and very modest increase into ASP, we try to derive the correlation. I think that's not possible. But basically what you can say is probably the ASP -- the price environment during this period of time has been fairly stable. I think that's probably something we can convert to.

實際上，。 [聽不清楚] 你對電視的解讀有點太多了。我的意思是，百分比的增長非常小，而且有這麼多的晶圓，我想，你知道我們還沒有達到技術節點，而且我們的價格也有一個範圍。所以，我的意思是，我認為這是非常困難的——要說 0.25 微米及以上的增長幅度為 47% 到 48%，而 ASP 的增長幅度非常小，我們試圖推導出相關性。我認為這是不可能的。但基本上您可以說的是 ASP——這段時間的價格環境一直相當穩定。我認為這可能是我們可以轉換的東西。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Thank you. Our next question comes from Michael McConnell of Pacific Press Securities.

謝謝。我們的下一個問題來自太平洋證券公司的麥可麥康奈爾。

Good evening guys. Was just curious looking at your Cap-X spent thus far in 2002. There's still a lot of room, obviously to come down from the, you know, the 2 billion you are expecting. So I was kind of wondering when you said less than 2 billion if you can kind of give us a range on your expectations at this point. A little bit more granularity in terms of where you think actually Cap-X will be for 2002? Thank you.

大家晚上好。只是好奇地看看您在 2002 年迄今為止的 Cap-X 支出。顯然，距離您預期的 20 億美元還有很大的下降空間。所以我想知道，當您說少於 20 億時，您是否可以給我們一個您目前的預期範圍。您認為 2002 年 Cap-X 的實際水準能否更詳細一些？謝謝。

Well, if you remember that last time the indication was 2.5, now is 2 and, of course we continue to review all these numbers, but I'm afraid that the Cap-X number is such a dynamic number that I really can't give you fully information until we have made more decisions.

好吧，如果您還記得的話，上次的指示是 2.5，現在是 2，當然，我們會繼續審查所有這些數字，但恐怕 Cap-X 數字是一個動態數字，在我們做出更多決定之前，我真的無法向您提供完整的信息。

Okay. And just one other question I had. In terms of when you say graphics chip sets, do you put that in the PC bucket, or does that go into the consumer bucket?

好的。我還有一個問題。當您說到圖形晶片組時，您把它歸類為 PC 類，還是消費者類？

It's primarily in the PC.

它主要存在於 PC 中。

Okay. Thank you very much.

好的。非常感謝。

You're welcome.

不客氣。

Thank you. Our next question comes from David Van Hoitmah of Julius Bear.

謝謝。我們的下一個問題來自 Julius Bear 的 David Van Hoitmah。

Yeah, Hi. Just actually very simple question. In your second half Cap-X, do you plan to push out any tool orders that you have in the books of the various equipment companies?

是的，你好。實際上這只是一個非常簡單的問題。在下半年的 Cap-X 中，您是否計劃推遲各設備公司帳簿上的任何工具訂單？

Rick, I'm not sure we should say about that. Well, usually, I think a reduction on a general basis the reduction is a combination of everything when you try to reduce the Cap-X. And certainly I think there's no reason we want to include the pushing out. But we, on the other hand talk about it too much it might make our vendors unhappy.

里克，我不確定我們是否應該談論這個。嗯，通常，我認為一般情況下的減少是當您嘗試減少 Cap-X 時所有因素的結合。當然，我認為我們沒有理由將其包括在內。但另一方面，我們談論太多可能會讓我們的供應商不高興。

I think my line went dead there for a bit. Would it be possible to repeat the last sentence? Sorry?

我覺得我的電話線在那裡斷了一會兒。可以重複一下最後一句話嗎？對不起？

You actually didn't miss anything because what I say is that if I talk too much about it my vendors will be on my back.

你實際上並沒有錯過任何事情，因為我說的是，如果我談論太多，我的供應商就會反對我。

Okay. [ LAUGHTER ]. I understand. Actually that's the -- that makes it clear. Thank you very much.

好的。[笑聲]我明白。事實上，這才是—清楚的。非常感謝。

Thank you. Our next question comes from Chip Morris of Integral Capital.

謝謝。我們的下一個問題來自Integral Capital的Chip Morris。

Hi. I was curious how much of the commentary about the decline in computer and the commentary of July is a function of a single graphics customer? Thank you.

你好。我很好奇，關於電腦衰退的評論和七月份的評論有多少是來自單一圖形客戶的評論？謝謝。

Um -- we don't talk about single customers. I think that's all we can say.

嗯——我們不談單一顧客。我想我們只能說這些了。

I guess what I'm trying to get at is what we are seeing for July and your quarter, are your commentary on ASPs and wafer starts or shipments systemic to the computer industry, or quite frankly, just a function of a problem at a single customer or two?

我想我想知道的是，我們看到的 7 月份和本季度的情況，您對 ASP 和晶圓開工或出貨量的評論是否對計算機行業具有系統性，或者坦率地說，僅僅是一個或兩個客戶的問題所致？

Well, I can only repeat my same answer.

好吧，我只能重複我的同一個答案。

Okay. Thank you.

好的。謝謝。

Thank you. Our next question comes from Chalice Jately of Numera Securities.

謝謝。下一個問題來自 Numera Securities 的 Chalice Jately。

Yeah, Hi. If you could just help me reconcile the numbers between your presentation slides and official press release. I was looking at the sales breakdown by applications. And in your press release it says that memory accounted for 12%, whereas your slide presentation says 3% and the corresponding numbers for computer communications and consumers and the presentation slide is much higher. Should I interpret that from your release -- press statement you have taken out the memory component which goes in the PC and communications and computers [INAUDIBLE] and basically classified it again?

是的，你好。如果您能幫我核對一下您的簡報投影片和官方新聞稿之間的數字就好了。我正在查看按應用程式劃分的銷售明細。你們的新聞稿中說內存佔 12%，而您的幻燈片演示中說的是 3%，並且計算機通信和消費者及演示幻燈片中的相應數字要高得多。我是否應該從你們的新聞稿——新聞聲明中解讀為，你們已經取出了個人計算機和通信及計算機中的內存組件 [聽不清]，並且基本上再次對其進行了保密？

The 12% fall under second quarter last year. So that's one year ago.

比去年第二季下降了 12%。那是一年前的事了。

Oh, okay. Sorry. That's a mistake. Secondly, I wanted to also just figure out this discussion about expensing the options. I fully agree with Harvey that probably the regulatory authorities would do nothing about it, simply because if all the companies start expensing it, the taxable fine for the authorities would go down significantly. But given the environment where your taxation is increasing, won't it make sense to expense -- start expensing and increase the cash flows accrued to the shareholders?

哦好的。對不起。這是一個錯誤。其次，我還想弄清楚有關費用化選擇權的討論。我完全同意哈維的觀點，監管機構可能不會對此採取任何行動，因為如果所有公司都開始將其費用化，當局應繳納的罰款就會大幅下降。但考慮到您的稅收不斷增加的環境，開始費用化並增加股東應計現金流是否更有意義？

I think you have to push [INAUDIBLE] a little bit harder. I certainly don't see that benefit right now. Right now, actually the expenses the so-called -- you are talking about, they are -- they don't have any cash flow, right. But I basically, I don't think it's going to happen.

我認為你必須再多推動一下 [聽不清楚]。我現在確實看不到這個好處。現在，實際上您所談論的所謂費用——他們沒有任何現金流，對吧。但我基本上不認為這會發生。

Okay. And one last question about the revenue guidance you are giving for July because you would have seen the wafer starts coming down in the month of May. So what are the reasons that you basically held back your [INAUDIBLE] for 2, 2 1/2 months? And because you are stressing on July, does it mean that sequentially for the month of August and September we should see -- expect sequential improvements?

好的。最後一個問題是關於您給出的7月份收入預期，因為您可能已經看到5月份晶圓銷售開始下降。那麼，您基本上將 [聽不清楚] 推遲了 2 個、2 個半月的原因是什麼？而且因為您強調的是7月份，這是否意味著我們應該看到8月份和9月份的環比增長——預計會出現環比改善？

Well, I think maybe -- I think you have sort of a misunderstood and our friendly sort of warning on July. Basically we have already offered our third quarter guidance. Unfortunately, we no longer give you guidance on total quarter revenue basis because this is not allowed by our regulatory authority. So since we cannot give you that number, and then we sort of concerned that when you see the July number you will try to generalize that into all the three quarters, that's all we are saying here. So we are saying that yes, there will be a decrease, and when you see the July number, that, relax a little bit, try to push your pencil a little bit harder and try to figure out what the total quarter will look like. Because, don't try to generalize one quarter and then particularly don't try to think that that indicates a trend that is a sort of going downhill sign. That's not a case. That's all we try to say here.

嗯，我想也許——我覺得你有點誤解了我們七月的友善警告。基本上我們已經提供了第三季的指導。遺憾的是，我們不再為您提供基於季度總收入的指導，因為我們的監管機構不允許這樣做。因此，由於我們無法給您這個數字，並且我們有點擔心，當您看到七月份的數字時，您會嘗試將其推廣到所有三個季度，這就是我們在這裡所說的全部。所以我們說，是的，數字將會下降，當你看到七月份的數字時，請稍微放鬆一下，試著稍微用力一點，試著算出整個季度的數字會是什麼樣子。因為，不要試圖概括一個季度的情況，特別是不要試圖認為這表明了一種走下坡路的趨勢。事實並非如此。這就是我們在這裡想說的全部。

Okay. Thank you.

好的。謝謝。

Thank you. Our next question comes from Prenab Sarma of Diowa Securities.

謝謝。我們的下一個問題來自 Diowa Securities 的 Prenab Sarma。

Hi. Good evening, gentlemen. Would it be possible for you to let us know in the second quarter of '02 how much of your -- how much losses you have incurred due to the foreign exchange, basically like you say the dollar has probably appreciated 1.5% up at first quarter '02 on average basis.

你好。先生們，晚上好。您能否告訴我們，在 2002 年第二季度，您因外匯遭受了多少損失，基本上就像您說的，美元在 2002 年第一季平均可能升值了 1.5%。

We have give you a number for the third quarter because that number is significant. We tend to think that for the third quarter that any dollar versus U.S. foreign exchange rate will stay at the current level throughout the quarter. And so the extent of change is significant, roughly 5%. And then we have give you sort of 2.2%, translated into a 2.2% impact. And actually you can do the same thing. You know -- .

我們為您提供了第三季的數字，因為這個數字很重要。我們傾向於認為，第三季美元兌美元的匯率將在整個季度保持在當前水準。因此變化的程度很大，大約是5％。然後我們給你 2.2% 左右，轉換為 2.2% 的影響。事實上你也可以做同樣的事情。你知道 - 。

I have that schedule, [INAUDIBLE] but it appears to me around $300 million losses in the dollar, am I right in my assumption?

我有那個時間表，[聽不清楚]但在我看來損失約為 3 億美元，我的假設正確嗎？

Can you repeat again? Because you sort of interrupted me and I'm not sure of that. Can you just --

你能再重複一遍嗎？因為你打斷了我的話，我對此不太確定。你能不能——

Sorry about that. Same we like 2.2% I have [INAUDIBLE] for second quarter '02, it appears around .7% margin losses on second quarter '02 if I assume like a 1.5% appreciation in the anti-dollar. And in that case it translates out around $300 million anti-dollar for-x losses in second quarter.

很抱歉。同樣，我們對 2.2% 的預期是 [聽不清楚]，對於 2002 年第二季度，如果我假設美元兌日圓升值 1.5%，那麼 2002 年第二季度的利潤損失似乎在 0.7% 左右。在這種情況下，第二季的美元兌日圓匯率損失約為 3 億美元。

I think your in the ball park.

我認為你已經在球場上了。

Okay. And would it be possible to let us know a little bit about, in July book-to-bill ratio is lower than the June? Or are are you seeing any stability in the book-to-bill ratio or improvement in the book-to-bill ratio now?

好的。您能告訴我們一些關於七月訂單出貨比低於六月的情況嗎？或者您現在看到訂單出貨比的穩定或改善？

We are seeing some improvement. Maybe Rick, Rick, maybe you can talk more about it. But I think we are seeing a little bit more, some improvement and gradually going back to one or close to one.

我們看到了某些進步。也許里克，里克，也許你可以多談談這個。但我認為我們看到了更多、一些改善並逐漸回到 1 或接近 1。

Yes. Yes. You are right, Harvey. We are moving gradually I think to one and a bit above.

是的。是的。你說得對，哈維。我認為我們正在逐步朝著一以上邁進。

Okay. And my last question will be on the Cap-X side, about another $1.5 billion you are supposed to spend in second half '02 based on current guidance. And how much of that will be for 12-inch Fab?

好的。我的最後一個問題是關於 Cap-X 方面，根據目前的指導，你們預計在 2002 年下半年還將支出約 15 億美元。其中有多少是用於12英寸Fab的？

We -- let me take a look at it. Okay. Right now we are looking roughly one-third on the 12 inch.

我們——讓我看一下。好的。目前，我們正在研究 12 英吋的大約三分之一。

Okay. On 500 million for 12-inch for second half. Thank you very much, gentlemen.

好的。下半年12吋的售價為5億。非常感謝各位先生。

Thank you. Our next question comes from Leo Lee of Credit Suisse First Boston.

謝謝。下一個問題來自瑞士信貸第一波士頓的 Leo Lee。

Well, we are hearing a lot from our old friends in the afternoon. I think in the interest of time we will take -- including this one we'll take two more questions.

嗯，下午我們聽到了很多老朋友的消息。我想為了節省時間，我們將——包括這個問題在內，我們將回答另外兩個問題。

Hi, good evening Harvey. I think just two questions. One question is that for second quarter revenue breakdown, how much for your top five customers account for your second quarter revenue percentage? And is any customer in the third quarter account for more than 10% of your budget revenue in the third quarter? That's my first question.

嗨，晚上好，哈維。我認為只有兩個問題。一個問題就是第二季的營收細節，你們前五大客戶佔你們第二季營收的比例是多少？第三季是否有任何客戶佔您第三季預算收入的 10％ 以上？這是我的第一個問題。

Leo, it's a very good try. We basically talk about our top ten. We really don't want to go too much details into that. But that the -- in terms of our top 10 customers, they are in a declining trend. And our top 10 include the first quarter, they are actually close to two-thirds, and the second quarter they fall to the mid-50 level. And I think will continue to fall in the third quarter. I think that's the best we can do.

Leo，這是一次非常好的嘗試。我們主要討論我們的前十名。我們確實不想談論太多細節。但就我們的前十大客戶而言，他們呈現下降趨勢。我們的前十名包括第一季度，他們實際上接近三分之二，而第二季度他們下降到50中間的水平。我認為第三季還將繼續下降。我認為這是我們能做的最好的事情。

And thank you. My second question is that Motorola in the second quarter earning conference they mention that they are working with TSMC for the product called magnetic RAM. Can you comment a little bit on that kind of product? When do you think that it will be ready for mass production? Or hits the market. Thank you.

謝謝你。我的第二個問題是，摩托羅拉在第二季的財報會議上提到，他們正在與台積電合作開發名為磁性 RAM 的產品。您能對這類產品發表一些評論嗎？您認為什麼時候可以進行量產？或進入市場。謝謝。

We have to apologize. We have not learned from [INAUDIBLE]. Now we have, as you know, we do have manufacturing agreement with Motorola and the joint technology development relationship. So we are working on a multi-front in both technologies and the production. So as to the magnetic, when specifically, I don't think we can comment specifically. But there is something. [ INAUDIBLE ] in commercial use yet Last question.

我們必須道歉。我們並沒有從[聽不清楚]中學到教訓。如您所知，我們現在與摩托羅拉簽訂了製造協議並建立了聯合技術開發關係。所以我們在技術和生產兩方面都開展了多方面的工作。至於磁性，具體來說，我認為我們無法具體評論。但有一件事。[聽不清楚] 尚未投入商業使用最後一個問題。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Thank you. Our next question comes from Ito Chang of Lehman Brothers.

謝謝。我們的下一個問題來自雷曼兄弟的Ito Chang。

Hello. My question is with regard to the strength you are seeing in the communication side. I was wondering if you could give us a bit more color on that in terms of whether this is due to more outsourcing, new product launches, or whether it's perhaps inventory replenishment? I also have follow-up questions. What about communication with respect to outsourcing? Pardon me? Trying to understand your question. I think, Rick, the question is the demand pick up of the communications segment. Are they coming from replenishment of inventory or coming from more outsourcing?

你好。我的問題是關於您在溝通方面所看到的優勢。我想知道您是否可以提供更多詳細信息，這是否是由於更多的外包、新產品的推出，或者是否可能是庫存補充？我還有一些後續問題。關於外包的溝通怎麼樣？對不起？嘗試去理解你的問題。里克，我認為問題在於通訊領域的需求回升。這些資金是來自庫存補充還是來自更多的外包？

Oh. I believe more out -- well, it's a combination of outsourcing and also new product.

哦。我相信更多的是——這是外包和新產品的結合。

Okay.

好的。

And new product. I mean we do see some replenishment, but it's getting to be quite low now. Mostly new product.

還有新產品。我的意思是我們確實看到了一些補給，但是現在已經變得相當低了。大部分是新產品。

Okay. As a follow-up, your communications segment grew considerably in the second quarter and you are also guiding for [INAUDIBLE] growth in the third quarter as well. Do you think this strength can be continued going into the fourth quarter?

好的。另外，您的通訊部門在第二季實現了大幅成長，您也預計第三季也將實現[聽不清楚]成長。您認為這種強勁勢頭還能持續到第四季嗎？

You know, we -- we believe our communication ratio communication we probably say -- probably at the third quarter level or may improve somewhat, but it's too early to say. Probably stay at the third quarter level, we can say that.

你知道，我們相信我們的溝通比率可能會達到第三季的水平或可能會有所改善，但現在說還為時過早。我們可以這麼說，可能會保持在第三季的水平。

Okay. My last question, quick question on flat panel display segment. Did you say that this was part of the sub segments that were seeing growth or seeing declining growth? That's what I have said that's what we saw. We see some growth, I think this quarter. But for the next quarter, actually they are not as strong. Okay. Great. Thanks. This quarter means second quarter, okay? Okay. Thank you. Okay.

好的。我的最後一個問題是關於平板顯示器領域的快速問題。您是否說過，這是正在成長或正在下降的細分市場的一部分？這就是我所說的，也是我們看到的。我認為本季我們看到了一些成長。但對於下一季來說，實際上它們並不那麼強勁。好的。偉大的。謝謝。這個季度意味著第二季度，好嗎？好的。謝謝。好的。

Thank you. Our next question comes from Ashid Kumar of Credit Suisse First Boston.

謝謝。下一個問題來自瑞士信貸第一波士頓的阿希德·庫馬爾。

Operator, after this one, this is definitely the last one, okay?

接線員，接完這個，這一定就是最後一個了，好嗎？

Sorry, Harvey. Good evening to you.

對不起，哈維。晚安.

Yeah, I know we can't stop, I know. [ LAUGHTER ].

是的，我知道我們不能停下來，我知道。[笑聲]

You know, I am just trying in sort of a different way to ask you two things and people have tried it earlier. First is that if hypothetically, you know, our company was to be without our top customer that is revenue excluding the top customer, would the revenue have shown a sequential improvement in quarter three or quarter two?

你知道，我只是嘗試以一種不同的方式向你問兩個問題，而且人們之前也已經嘗試過了。首先，如果假設我們公司沒有了最大客戶，也就是除去最大客戶的收入，第三季或第二季的收入會不會有連續改善？

I'm sorry, you have to repeat your question again.

抱歉，你不得不再次重複你的問題。

No problem. I was asking, Harvey, that, you know, our company without the top customer, that is a revenue without top customer, quarter two over quarter three or quarter three or quarter two actually would that be sequentially up?

沒問題。哈維，我問的是，您知道，我們公司如果沒有最大客戶，也就是沒有最大客戶，第二季與第三季或第三季或第二季相比，收入實際上會連續上升嗎？

You you lost me.

你把你失去我了。

Okay.

好的。

You're going to have to try again. I understand the question, but we have not -- Harvey, he's asking the revenue without the top customers how is the revenue doing from second quarter to third quarter? Am I right to say that?

你必須再試一次。我明白這個問題，但我們還沒有──哈維，他問的是，在沒有頂級客戶的情況下，第二季到第三季的營收狀況如何？我這樣說對嗎？

Yeah, and actually I'm not even asking for, you know, a magnitude or anything. I'm just trying to get a sense of direction that TSMC without the top customer, would the revenue in third quarter be higher than the second quarter?

是的，實際上我甚至沒有要求幅度或任何東西。我只是想知道，如果沒有最大客戶，台積電第三季的營收是否會高於第二季？

I really cannot respond to that. But I think I have dropped enough hints on that.

我實在無法回應這個問題。但我認為我已經給出足夠的暗示了。

Sure. Okay. Okay. And I think you did answer, but I couldn't hear it probably, so I -- I'll ask again. . After, you know, you did sort of in a friendly fashion, you know, warn us about the July month [INAUDIBLE], what the wafer the number might be, would August and September be, you know, sort of higher than the month of July to get to your full quarter guidance?

當然。好的。好的。我想你確實回答了，但我可能沒聽清，所以我——我會再問一次。 。您知道，在您以友好的方式警告我們 7 月份的業績之後，[聽不清] 確切的數字可能是多少，8 月和 9 月的業績是否會高於 7 月份，以達到您整個季度的預期？

Um -- I can't really talk about it. I will get into trouble with the regulators. We actually -- I actually -- let me try to explain this. I think after -- I'm thinking our last quarter result they have already noticed that we stopped giving you guidance on the revenue and on the profitability side. In the past we give you a range. That is because, I think early January that we got a notice from our local SFC which is equivalent to the U.S. SEC. Basically saying that if companies are giving -- offering guidance, specific guidance on revenue or profits, then this will be perceived by the regulators that the company has the intent to voluntarily made their financial forecast for whole year available. So after they have done that, within 48 hours they have to make the whole year forecast available to everyone. Since we are not prepared to make forecasts for the whole year, and so I think we have to, somehow, modify our guidance.

嗯——我實在不能談論這個。我會和監理機關產生麻煩。我們實際上——我實際上——讓我嘗試解釋這一點。我想——我想我們上個季度的業績之後他們已經注意到我們停止向您提供有關收入和盈利方面的指導。過去我們給你一個範圍。因為，我記得在一月初我們就收到了當地證監會（相當於美國證券交易委員會）的通知。基本上說，如果公司提供指引，關於收入或利潤的具體指引，那麼監管機構就會認為該公司有意自願提供全年財務預測。所以他們完成這項工作後，必須在 48 小時內向所有人提供全年預測。由於我們沒有準備好對全年做出預測，所以我認為我們必須以某種方式修改我們的指導。

Sure. Sure. Thank you so much.

當然。當然。太感謝了。

Okay. I think that will conclude our today's conference call. And certainly want to thank everyone for patiently staying with us. Thank you very much.

好的。我想我們今天的電話會議就到此結束了。當然，我也要感謝大家的耐心陪伴。非常感謝。

Thank you. Before we conclude TSMC's second quarter 2002 earnings webcast conference call today, please be advised that the replay of the conference call will be accessible through TSMC's website at WWW.TSMC.com. Finally, for all participants who have not previously submitted their e-mail addresses to the company or would like to update their e-mail addresses and contact details please contact TSMC's IR team at invest @tsmc.com.gw, as soon as possible. Thank you all, you may disconnect at this time.

謝謝。在我們今天結束台積電 2002 年第二季度收益網路電話會議之前，請注意，您可以透過台積電網站 WWW.TSMC.com 重播該電話會議。最後，對於所有尚未向公司提交電子郵件地址或想要更新其電子郵件地址和聯絡資訊的參與者，請盡快聯絡台積電的 IR 團隊 invest@tsmc.com.gw。謝謝大家，現在您可以斷開連線了。