台積電 ADR (TSM) 2002 Q4 法說會逐字稿

Welcome to the Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company's fourth quarter 2002 results web cast conference call. Today's event is hosted by Mr. Harvey Chang Senior Vice President and Chief Financial Officer and Rick Tsai, president and chief operating officer. This call is being web cast live versus the TSM web site at www.tsmc.com and in audio mode. Dial-in lines are in a listen-only mode.

歡迎參加台積電 2002 年第四季度業績網絡直播電話會議。今天的活動由高級副總裁兼首席財務官 Harvey Chang 先生和總裁兼首席運營官 Rick Tsai 先生主持。此電話會議通過 TSM 網站 www.tsmc.com 以音頻模式進行網絡直播。撥入線路處於只聽模式。

At the conclusion of the presentation we will be opening up the floor for questions. At that time further instructions will be provided as to the procedure to follow if you would like to ask questions. Please be advised for those participants who do not yet have a copy of the press release, you may down load it from TSMC's web site at www.tsmc.com. Please also download the summary slides in relation to today's quarterly review presentation. Once again, the URL is www.tsmc.com. I'd like to now turn the conference over to Ms. Julie Chen for the cautionary statement before the main presentation by Mr. Chang and Dr. Rick Tsai .

在演示結束時，我們將開始提問。屆時，如果您想提出問題，將提供有關應遵循的程序的進一步說明。請注意那些還沒有新聞稿副本的與會者，您可以從 TSMC 的網站 www.tsmc.com 下載它。另請下載與今天的季度審查演示文稿相關的摘要幻燈片。 URL 再次是 www.tsmc.com。現在我想將會議轉交給 Julie Chen 女士，讓她在張先生和 Rick Tsai 博士的主要演講之前發表警示性聲明。

Good morning and good evening to all participants. On behalf of TSMC welcome to our fourth quarter taught results conference call. Before we begin, I would like to state that management's comments about TSMC's current expectations made during this call are forward-looking statements subject to significant risk and uncertainties. And that actual results may differ materially from those contained in the forward-looking statements. Information as to those factors that would cause actual results to differ materially from TSMC's forward-looking statements may be found in TSMC's annual report on form 20 F filed with the United States Securities and Exchange Commission on May 9th, 2002. And such other documents as the company may file with or submit to the SEC from time to time. And now I would like to turn the conference call over to Mr. Harvey Chang, our Senior Vice President and Chief Financial Officer. Harvey.

各位與會者早上好，晚上好。我代表台積電歡迎參加我們第四季度教學成果電話會議。在我們開始之前，我想聲明管理層在本次電話會議期間對台積電當前預期的評論是前瞻性陳述，存在重大風險和不確定性。並且實際結果可能與前瞻性陳述中包含的結果存在重大差異。有關可能導致實際結果與台積電前瞻性陳述存在重大差異的因素的信息，請參見台積電於 2002 年 5 月 9 日向美國證券交易委員會提交的 20F 表年度報告。以及其他文件公司可能會不時向美國證券交易委員會備案或提交。現在我想將電話會議轉交給我們的高級副總裁兼首席財務官 Harvey Chang 先生。哈維。

Good morning and good evening to everyone. And welcome to our quarterly review conference call. I would like to begin today's conference call by making some comments on the fourth quarter results and then I think that we will proceed with Q&A. And currently we scheduled to have finished this call in about 75 minutes. That will be 9:15 U.S. time, 10:15 in the p.m., Taiwan time.

大家早上好，晚上好。歡迎參加我們的季度審查電話會議。我想通過對第四季度業績發表一些評論來開始今天的電話會議，然後我認為我們將繼續進行問答。目前我們計劃在大約 75 分鐘內完成此次通話。那將是美國時間 9 點 15 分，台灣時間晚上 10 點 15 分。

Let me begin by reviewing the fourth quarter results. Our fourth quarter revenue for 2001 is roughly 41 billion NT and gross profit around 10.6 billion NT, operating income 5.6 and profit after tax, 1.5 billion, which is roughly cash equivalent to EPS of 13 cents.

讓我首先回顧一下第四季度的結果。我們 2001 年第四季度的收入約為新台幣 410 億元，毛利約為新台幣 106 億元，營業收入為 5.6 元，稅後利潤為 15 億元，現金大致相當於 EPS 13 仙。

And we look at year 2002 on the total basis and the total year revenue. It's 160 billion and the gross profit roughly 51 billion and the operating income roughly 34 billion. And net profit after tax 21 billion, which is cash equivalent to EPS of $1.14. If we compare -- a quick comparison between the 2002 results with previous year 2001, we will see that our revenue growth are roughly 28 percent. And gross profit, roughly 43 percent. And net income, roughly 49 percent. Our EPS, $1.14, versus 2001 EPS, 75 cents. Let me give you some highlights of the fourth quarter operating results. I already talked about sales and net income EPS.

我們看一下 2002 年的總收入和年度總收入。 1600億，毛利510億左右，營業收入340億左右。稅後淨利潤210億美元，現金相當於每股收益1.14美元。如果我們比較——將 2002 年的結果與上一年的 2001 年進行快速比較，我們將看到我們的收入增長大約為 28%。毛利潤約為 43%。淨收入約為 49%。我們的每股收益為 1.14 美元，而 2001 年每股收益為 75 美分。讓我向您介紹第四季度經營業績的一些亮點。我已經談到了銷售額和每股收益淨收入。

And a quick look at the balance sheet side. We finished the quarter with roughly 61 billion cash on hand. Debt remains around 39 billion, which makes us measurably a debt free company, shareholder equity at 295 billion. Total [inaudible] in the quarter is 682,000 K wafers. Utilization during the quarter is 61 percent.

并快速查看資產負債表方面。我們在本季度結束時手頭現金約為 610 億美元。債務仍然在 390 億美元左右，這使我們可以說是一家無債務公司，股東權益為 2950 億美元。本季度總 [聽不清] 為 682,000 K 晶圓。本季度的利用率為 61%。

Year-over-year comparison, if we compare the fourth quarter of 2002 with fourth quarter 2001, we see that fourth quarter 2002 had about 24 percent gross on revenue. However, gross margin was down to 26 percent from 33 percent. And the operating income down by four percent from 5.8 to 5.6 billion and the biggest reason for the dropping margin is the depreciation and amortization is much higher.

同比比較，如果我們將 2002 年第四季度與 2001 年第四季度進行比較，我們會發現 2002 年第四季度的總收入約為 24%。然而，毛利率從 33% 降至 26%。營業收入從 5.8 億美元下降 4% 至 56 億美元，利潤率下降的最大原因是折舊和攤銷費用高得多。

If we turn to the next page, you will see that the depreciation and amortization for fourth quarter 2001 was roughly 12.4 billion. For this quarter it's 16.1. so that has actually a big impact on the gross profit. As to other changes on the balance sheet, appeared two years ago, I think the biggest change is we're holding a lot more cash now. Our cash position now is 51 billion versus 33, which I will have already talked about.

如果我們翻到下一頁，您會看到 2001 年第四季度的折舊和攤銷大約為 124 億美元。本季度為 16.1。所以這實際上對毛利潤有很大的影響。至於兩年前出現的資產負債表上的其他變化，我認為最大的變化是我們現在持有更多的現金。我們現在的現金頭寸是 510 億美元，而我已經談到了 33 億美元。

If we look at our quarter-over-quarter comparison, compared with third quarter last year, revenue wise there's a modest three percent growth. However, gross profit down from 32.2 p percent to 26 percent, are part of the sales in fourth quarter coming from sale of finished goods inventories that was on the book at the end of the third quarter.

如果我們看一下我們的季度比較，與去年第三季度相比，收入方面有 3% 的適度增長。然而，毛利潤從 32.2% 下降到 26%，這是第四季度銷售額的一部分，來自第三季度末帳面上的成品庫存銷售。

As you can see, if we take a look at -- a close look at the inventory, that at the end of the third quarter last year, we have inventory totaled roughly 13.3 billion, including 1.1 billion raw material, 8.7 billion of work in process and 3.5 billion finished goods. If we come to fourth quarter, the amount of inventory totaled was reduced by 3 billion. So they reduced from 13.3 billion to 10.3 billion. And all of which raw material roughly at one billion so not much change. Work in process reduced from 8.7 to 7.5 and also finished goods reduced by 1.7 billion. So this is what we're referring to.

正如你所看到的，如果我們仔細觀察一下庫存，去年第三季度末，我們的庫存總額約為 133 億美元，其中包括 11 億美元的原材料，87 億美元的工作過程和 35 億成品。如果我們來到第四季度，庫存總量減少了 30 億。所以他們從133億減少到103億。所有這些原材料大約有 10 億，所以變化不大。在製品從 8.7 減少到 7.5，製成品也減少了 17 億。所以這就是我們所指的。

But if we look at also second quarter last year, finished goods balance was roughly one billion total. Between one billion end of second quarter and 3.5 billion end of third quarter, there's a big difference. Now we're back to 1.8, which is considered to be in the normal range. So this is one reason why when our revenue increased meanwhile our utilization went down. Because the utilization went down from 79 percent, which was in third quarter, to 61 percent. So the total fixed costs that went up. And therefore the gross margin dropped from 32.2 percent to 26 percent.

但如果我們再看看去年第二季度，成品餘額總額約為 10 億美元。二季度末的10億和三季度末的35億之間，差距很大。現在我們回到1.8，這被認為是在正常範圍內。所以這就是為什麼當我們的收入增加時我們的利用率卻下降的原因之一。因為利用率從第三季度的 79% 下降到 61%。所以總固定成本上升了。因此，毛利率從 32.2% 下降到 26%。

Okay. Other than the -- we want to talk about the wafer shipment. Actually there's a small increase, a modest increase from 677K wafers to 682 K. But ASP wise it's a modest drop by .6 percent. The other thing I would like to mention is on the R&D expense. Our R&D expense is 3.6 effect million which is much higher than the 2.8 billion in the third quarter. As a result our total operating expense was higher than the third quarter and our operating income for from 8.3 billion in the third quarter to 5. 6 billion.

好的。除了 - 我們想談談晶圓出貨量。實際上有一個小的增加，從 677K 晶圓適度增加到 682K。但平均售價明智地下降了 0.6%。我想提的另一件事是研發費用。我們的研發費用是36億，遠高於三季度的28億。因此，我們的總營業費用高於第三季度，我們的營業收入從第三季度的 83 億美元增加到 5. 6 億美元。

The other factor that has also caused our net profit to go down is because of the downturn of the semiconductor industry. Our investments, Wafer Tag (ph), SMC Singapore (ph) as well as in Vanguard (ph), they suffer from it, their losses increased during the fourth quarter.

另一個導致我們淨利潤下降的因素是半導體行業的低迷。我們的投資 Wafer Tag (ph)、SMC Singapore (ph) 以及 Vanguard (ph) 都遭受了損失，他們的虧損在第四季度有所增加。

The other thing that compared with third quarter is a positive change on the tax expense. As you know, in the third quarter that we have unusually high tax expense. And now as we come to this quarter, the tax expense are now back at normal levels. So that's sort of a quick look at the first quarter financials. And let's take another look on the revenue analysis.

與第三季度相比，另一件事是稅收支出發生了積極變化。如您所知，在第三季度，我們的稅收支出異常高。現在我們來到這個季度，稅收支出現在回到了正常水平。所以這是對第一季度財務狀況的快速瀏覽。讓我們再看一下收入分析。

On the revenue side, the first thing we're going to look at is look at the breakdown by technology. You will notice that actually the biggest change is that the .13 micron revenue now accounts for eight percent of fourth quarter revenue and total advanced technology which means .18 and smaller geometries, they in the fourth quarter account for roughly 53 percent, of total revenue, versus 48 percent in the second quarter.

在收入方面，我們首先要看的是技術細分。你會注意到實際上最大的變化是 .13 微米收入現在佔第四季度收入和先進技術總量的 8%，這意味著 .18 和更小的幾何形狀，它們在第四季度約佔總收入的 53% ，而第二季度為 48%。

If we take a look at the sales breakdown by application, we will see that computer in the fourth quarter was down from 36 percent to 39 percent now. Communications, 35 percent, up one percent from third quarter. Consumer, 18 percent, down four percent from third quarter. Foundries (ph) three percent, others five percent.

如果我們按應用程序查看銷售明細，我們會發現第四季度的計算機從 36% 下降到現在的 39%。通信，35%，比第三季度增長 1 個百分點。消費者，18%，比第三季度下降 4%。鑄造廠 (ph) 百分之三，其他百分之五。

As far as the geometry -- geography break down North America still accounts for 76 percent of total revenue in fourth quarter. Europe five percent, Asia Pacific, 14 percent, which is one percent up. Japan five percent, which is one percent down.

就幾何形狀而言——北美地區在第四季度仍佔總收入的 76%。歐洲 5%，亞太地區 14%，上升了 1%。日本百分之五，也就是百分之一。

As far as customer tech is concerned, if we look at the fabless percentages versus IDM, actually the fabless percentage went up from 64 percent to 68 percent. IDM percentage went down from 35 versus 31 percent

就客戶技術而言，如果我們比較無晶圓廠百分比與 IDM，實際上無晶圓廠百分比從 64% 上升到 68%。 IDM 百分比從 35% 下降到 31%

The next chart will give you an idea on the ASP trend as far as on the fab utilization. As you can see our ASP actually has in the past couple quarters basically remained flat. And as far as the utilization is concerned, last quarter was 61 percent which we have already talked about.

下一張圖表將讓您了解晶圓廠利用率方面的 ASP 趨勢。正如您所看到的，我們的 ASP 在過去幾個季度實際上基本持平。就利用率而言，上個季度是我們已經討論過的 61%。

Next we're going to give you an idea on the installed capacity for this quarter. Total historical capacity for last quarter was 1.067 million wafers for last quarter and this quarter basically remain flat at 1.068 million versus 67,000 last quarter.

接下來，我們將為您介紹本季度的裝機容量。上一季度歷史總產能為106.7萬片晶圓，本季度基本持平於106.8萬片，上一季度為6.7萬片。

Next graph is the trend, give you an idea on the distribution of different technologies. You can see that at the bottom -- the bottom orange color, that is the point 3, give you an idea that this year we're going to continue to increase our 0.13 capacity.

下圖是趨勢，讓您了解不同技術的分佈。您可以在底部看到 - 底部橙色，即第 3 點，讓您知道今年我們將繼續增加 0.13 容量。

The next one is a recap of the major events was released to the public that during the quarter. I'm not going to go into the details of that. Then I think we are going to talk about guidance and KPACs (ph) for 2003. Give me a minute so we can show you. As far as the guidance is concerned, based on the current business outlook that we continue to expect that TSMC revenue will bottom out during the course of the first quarter. But we also expect 2003 semiconductor industry revenue growth to be around eight percent, of which it's actually a little bit lower than many of the industry forecasts currently for the year.

下一個是對本季度向公眾發布的重大事件的回顧。我不打算詳細說明。然後我想我們將討論 2003 年的指南和 KPAC (ph)。給我一分鐘，我們可以向您展示。就指引而言，根據目前的業務前景，我們繼續預計台積電收入將在第一季度觸底反彈。但我們也預計 2003 年半導體行業的收入增長將達到 8% 左右，這實際上比許多行業目前對這一年的預測要低一點。

Also our experience shows that in the past we'd be able to -- we've always been able to exceed the industry growth rate. And we expect TSMC to continue to have growth rate exceeding the industry growth rate for 2003. For the first quarter of 2003, we expect wafer shipment to decline by a low single digit percentage rate on a sequential basis. And ASP to decline by about seven percent due to essentially flat percentage shipment of the nano-technologies and a general product decline.

此外，我們的經驗表明，過去我們能夠——我們始終能夠超過行業增長率。我們預計台積電 2003 年的增長率將繼續超過行業增長率。對於 2003 年第一季度，我們預計晶圓出貨量將環比下降一個較低的個位數百分比。由於納米技術的出貨百分比基本持平以及產品普遍下降，平均售價將下降約 7%。

I had talked about that, for example, let me elaborate just a little bit. I had talked about last quarter our shipment of the advanced technology is roughly 63 percent. For this quarter, actually, we expect that percentage will basically remain flat. But that percentage will start to go up again I think in the second quarter, 2003. But for this quarter, because we expect shipment of advanced technology to stay flat. So actually it will be a more obvious effect in terms of the price point and pricing pressure on our technologies. Also we expect the utilization to be around 60 percent and the customer demand mix by product location to remain similar to that in 4 Q. And the communication will be showing slight improvement. On the K packs (ph) we expect the 2003 K packs (ph) to be in the range of one-to-one and a half billion U.S. dollars. That's my brief presentation for the fourth quarter and I think we will now open up for questions.

例如，我已經談到了這一點，讓我稍微詳細說明一下。我在上個季度談到了我們先進技術的出貨量約為 63%。實際上，對於本季度，我們預計該百分比將基本保持不變。但我認為該百分比將在 2003 年第二季度再次開始上升。但對於本季度，因為我們預計先進技術的出貨量將保持平穩。所以實際上，就我們技術的價格點和定價壓力而言，這將是一個更明顯的影響。此外，我們預計利用率將在 60% 左右，按產品位置劃分的客戶需求組合將與第四季度保持相似。溝通將略有改善。在 K 包 (ph) 上，我們預計 2003 年的 K 包 (ph) 將在一對一和 5 億美元的範圍內。這是我對第四季度的簡要介紹，我想我們現在可以開始提問了。

At this time we will open the floor for questions. If you would like to ask a question, please press star then 1 on your touch-tone telephone. Questions will be taken in the order they are received. If at any time you would like to remove yourself from the questioning queue, please press star then 2. Please limit your questions to one at a time to allow all participants to ask questions from the management members. Our first question comes from Suresh (ph) Balaraman (ph) with Equity Partners (ph).

現在我們將開始提問。如果您想提問，請在按鍵式電話上按星號，然後按 1。問題將按照收到的順序進行處理。如果您想在任何時候將自己從提問隊列中移除，請按星號，然後按 2。請一次只提一個問題，以便所有參與者都可以向管理人員提問。我們的第一個問題來自 Suresh (ph) Balaraman (ph) with Equity Partners (ph)。

Good morning, guys. A couple of questions regarding capital expenditure plan I'm wondering why does such a wide range in terms of what your spending will be and historically you've given more precise numbers even when we had demand that was not great. And I was wondering if there were other factors such as EELs which would determine where your spending for the year would ultimately end up at.

早上好傢伙。關於資本支出計劃的幾個問題我想知道為什麼你的支出會有如此廣泛的範圍，而且從歷史上看，即使我們的需求不是很大，你也會給出更精確的數字。我想知道是否還有其他因素（例如 EEL）會決定您當年的支出最終會在哪裡結束。

Well, [inaudible] that number is always a dynamic number. So in the past actually we probably changed several times during the year. So I think actually in order not to mislead people, I think actually we give a value range, but still give you a feeling of what the overall business dynamics is like and what the spending is likely going to be

好吧，[聽不清] 這個數字始終是一個動態數字。所以過去實際上我們可能在一年中改變了幾次。所以我認為實際上為了不誤導人們，我認為實際上我們給出了一個值範圍，但仍然讓你了解整體業務動態是什麼樣的以及支出可能會是多少

Can you also comment on how the ramp in spending will be? In terms of Q3 to Q4 a little bit more back end loaded and where do you expect the bulk of your spending? Is it going to be more on copper or 300 millimeter? Can you give us color on that?

您能否也評論一下支出的增長情況？在第 3 季度到第 4 季度，後端負載增加了一點，您預計大部分支出在哪裡？它會更多地使用銅還是 300 毫米？你能給我們一些顏色嗎？

Rick, you want to take it?

瑞克，你想接受嗎？

Sure. I think the K packs will be spent on 0.13 micron and the copper at 300 millimeter wafer fab. I think the ramping will be fairly uniform. The second -- I think the Chairman said in the afternoon that we will see a lot better probably around the mid-year time, to have a feeling about the 2004. I think if we believe 2004 will be more promising, we're probably going to increase the spending in the second half. As you know we do have a single facility ready for the rapid capacity [inaudible]

當然。我認為 K 封裝將用於 0.13 微米和 300 毫米晶圓廠的銅。我認為斜坡將相當均勻。第二——我想主席在下午說過，我們可能會在年中左右看到好得多，對 2004 年有一種感覺。我認為如果我們相信 2004 年會更有希望，我們可能會下半年將增加支出。如您所知，我們確實有一個設施可用於快速產能 [聽不清]

Let me compliment that by saying that if we finish the year 2003 on the low side of the range, I think we'll probably fairly evenly distribute it. If we finish the year on the high side, we'll probably back end load it and we'll see more spending in the second half, because it really depends on our feeling of what is going to happen in 2004

讓我恭維一下，如果我們在範圍的低端結束 2003 年，我認為我們可能會相當平均地分配它。如果我們以較高的水平結束這一年，我們可能會在後端加載它，我們會在下半年看到更多的支出，因為這實際上取決於我們對 2004 年將要發生的事情的感覺

Great. Thanks. Can you also comment on the 0.13 will increase sequentially from Q4 to Q1, you said overall it will be flatish.

偉大的。謝謝。您能否也評論一下 0.13 將從第 4 季度到第 1 季度依次增加，您說總體上會持平。

We are saying that because last quarter was 50 percent plus and we are saying that for this quarter for advanced technology, which is a total, the sum of 0.13, 0.15 and .18 will also roughly be 50 percent plus. All of which I will say that we'll see some increase I think on the 0.13 side.

我們說的是因為上一季度是 50% 以上，而我們說的是本季度的先進技術，即總計，0.13、0.15 和 .18 的總和也將大致超過 50%。所有這些我都會說我們會在 0.13 方面看到一些增長。

Thank you. Very good

謝謝。非常好

Our next question comes from Tim Arkuri with Deutsche Bank.

我們的下一個問題來自德意志銀行的 Tim Arkuri。

Can you tell us the 1-1.5 billion includes anything for fab 14?

你能告訴我們 1-15 億包括 fab 14 的任何東西嗎？

Right now, probably not much. Maybe from -- I would say not much.

現在，可能不多。也許來自——我不會說太多。

Not much. Okay. So if you were to spend on fab 14, not saying you would, but if you were, what would the incremental amount be? Can you kind of put a number on that?

不多。好的。所以如果你要在 fab 14 上花錢，不是說你會，但如果你是，增量金額是多少？你能給個數字嗎？

We can't.

我們不能。

No, we don't have a number, no

不，我們沒有號碼，不

Okay. Great. And what's the target again for wafer starts in fab 12 by the end of '03?

好的。偉大的。到 03 年底，12 號晶圓廠開始生產晶圓的目標是什麼？

I think we should be able to do a 12 to 13,000 per month

我認為我們應該能夠每月完成 12 到 13,000 個

And that ramp will be pretty linear through the year?

並且這個斜坡在一年中會非常線性？

I think so, yes, for the year

我想是的，是的，今年

Okay. Great. Thanks a lot.

好的。偉大的。多謝。

Our next question comes from Mark Fitzgerald with Bank c of America Securities. Please go ahead

我們的下一個問題來自 Bank c of America Securities 的 Mark Fitzgerald。請繼續

Can you help us with depreciation here, kind of the trend going forward? And can you give us a quick explanation how you calculate the depreciation?

你能幫我們解決貶值問題嗎，這是未來的趨勢嗎？你能給我們快速解釋一下你是如何計算折舊的嗎？

How we calculate depreciation? The depreciation basically goes, the tools, equipment, go five years, three line. Facilities and depends on ten years. Some longer than ten years. If you want to sort of have a quick number for 2003, I would say if you use last quarter's number, kind of annualized it, I think you'll be close.

我們如何計算折舊？折舊基本走，工具，設備，走五年，三線。設施又要看十年。有的超過十年。如果您想知道 2003 年的快速數字，我會說如果您使用上一季度的數字，將其年化，我認為您會很接近。

Okay. And would you suggest that's going to peak out this year and that you would -- depreciation would come down going into '04?

好的。你會建議這將在今年達到頂峰並且你會 - 折舊會在 04 年下降嗎？

It might come down a little bit. But we don't really know right now.

它可能會下降一點點。但我們現在真的不知道。

Okay. Thank you

好的。謝謝

Our next question comes from Johnny Chen with Credit Suisse First Boston. Please go ahead with your question.

我們的下一個問題來自瑞士信貸第一波士頓的 Johnny Chen。請繼續你的問題。

I'd like to ask two questions. First question is on your projected first quarter utilization rate of 60 percent. We saw that the latest book-to-bill ratio is about 1.25. Shouldn't that translate into higher utilization rate compared to fourth quarter? I guess another way of asking this is where there's 60 percent utilization rate in first quarter is enough to give you a similar type of wafer shipment that we saw in the fourth quarter.

我想請教兩個問題。第一個問題是關於您預計第一季度 60% 的利用率。我們看到最新的訂單出貨比約為1.25。與第四季度相比，這不應該轉化為更高的利用率嗎？我猜想問這個問題的另一種方式是，第一季度 60% 的利用率足以讓您獲得與我們在第四季度看到的類似類型的晶圓出貨量。

Second question is on the Low-k. We know TSMC has been very successful in copper with the SG. I'd like to know the status of Low-k and which customers are driving your efforts on the Low-k. Thank you.

第二個問題是關於 Low-k 的。我們知道台積電通過 SG 在銅方面非常成功。我想知道 Low-k 的狀態以及哪些客戶正在推動您在 Low-k 上的努力。謝謝。

I certainly feel confident that the number we give you right now, the roughly 60 percent utilization will give us the amount of wafers that we expect to ship during the quarter. So I'm not sure that actually what is your question. Maybe, Rick, you could talk about the other question first and maybe Johnny can come back and talk a little bit more about what he wants to know

我當然有信心我們現在給你的數字，大約 60% 的利用率將為我們提供我們預計在本季度出貨的晶圓數量。所以我不確定你的問題到底是什麼。也許，里克，你可以先談談另一個問題，也許約翰尼可以回來再多談談他想知道的事情

Low-k, we are running again more volume production. The customer who is writing Low-k usage of course on the performance driven customers right now, moving the communication sectors, the wire line, wire line communication

低 k，我們再次進行更多的批量生產。寫 Low-k 用法的客戶現在當然是性能驅動的客戶，移動通信部門、有線線路、有線線路通信

Johnny

約翰尼

Do you have another question?

你還有其他問題要問嗎？

Okay. Thank you.

好的。謝謝。

Our next question comes from Mike O'Brien with sound SoundView Technology Group. Please go ahead with your question

我們的下一個問題來自 SoundView Technology Group 的 Mike O'Brien。請繼續你的問題

Good evening. I have a question on your guidance on communications percentage being up a little bit for the first quarter. Could you tell me whether that's more wireless related, wire line? Is it both? What are you seeing from your communications customers? Any worry on the wireless side that there's some kind of an inventory build? Thanks

晚上好。我對您關於第一季度通信百分比略有上升的指導有疑問。你能告訴我這是否與無線、有線線路更相關嗎？兩者都有嗎？您從通信客戶那裡看到了什麼？無線方面是否擔心存在某種庫存構建？謝謝

The growth probably came more from wireless than wire line. And the major area for growth is the mobile phone and the wireless LAN. We have a fairly diversified customer base for the mobile phone, the handsets. So I think we're looking at the more balanced picture for the mobile phone. We have quite a several of them, and very different technology.

增長可能更多地來自無線而不是有線。增長的主要領域是移動電話和無線局域網。我們擁有相當多元化的手機客戶群。所以我認為我們正在為手機尋找更平衡的畫面。我們有很多，而且技術非常不同。

You may be answering that for the fourth quarter. But I think you may have mentioned for the first quarter that communication may be up as a percentage a little bit. I guess I'm just curious on what's driving that or what's driving communications in the first quarter. Are you seeing any drop-off in wireless offset by an increase in wireline, maybe some of your customers moving to 0.13 micron processes from 0.15. If you could give me more color on the communication side of things for first quarter.

您可能會在第四季度回答這個問題。但我想你可能已經提到第一季度，溝通的百分比可能會有所上升。我想我只是好奇是什麼推動了這一點，或者是什麼推動了第一季度的溝通。您是否看到有線線路增加導致無線偏移量下降，也許您的一些客戶從 0.15 微米工藝轉向 0.13 微米工藝。如果你能在第一季度的溝通方面給我更多的顏色。

Again, still, the wireless is showing growth in first quarter, along with some of the wire line. Not as strong as wire line growth. Wire line such as the ethernet switch and ethernet niche market seems to have a more moderate growth

同樣，無線在第一季度與一些有線線路一起顯示出增長。不如有線增長強勁。以太網交換機和以太網利基市場等有線線路似乎增長較為溫和

Maybe just one final thing on wireless. Do you think that that's -- is that new customer, new customer wins or are your already established customers increasing their wafer starts in the first quarter?

也許只是無線的最後一件事。你認為那是新客戶，新客戶贏得還是你已經建立的客戶在第一季度增加了他們的晶圓啟動？

Actually, we're seeing, other than one customer, we're seeing a fairly uniform good demand, both in their demand. Most of our customers are reasonably well.

實際上，我們看到，除了一個客戶之外，我們看到了相當統一的良好需求，無論是在他們的需求中。我們的大多數客戶都相當健康。

One final thing on the PC side of things. Maybe what you're seeing there, are you seeing some seasonal down tick post the holiday season for the first quarter from wafer starts or will that be offset by some new product ramp maybe on the graphic side. Thanks

PC 端的最後一件事。也許你在那裡看到的是，你是否看到從晶圓開始的第一季度假期後出現一些季節性下降，或者這會被圖形方面的一些新產品斜坡所抵消。謝謝

In general, yeah, you're right. For the first quarter, the PC segment is showing weaker signs. And we're seeing that in most areas, I mean, the only place that may have some stronger signs, the LCD driver, controllers type application.

總的來說，是的，你是對的。第一季度，個人電腦市場表現疲軟。我們在大多數領域都看到了這一點，我的意思是，唯一可能有一些更強跡象的地方是 LCD 驅動器、控制器類型的應用程序。

Okay. Thank you

好的。謝謝

Our next question comes from Shalesh Jayzee (ph) with Nomura Securities. Please go ahead with your questions

我們的下一個問題來自野村證券的 Shalesh Jayzee (ph)。請繼續你的問題

If you could provide some of the data regarding the utilization for the capacities at advanced nodes that is 0.18 and less with exposure capacities

如果您可以提供一些有關高級節點容量利用率的數據，即 0.18 和更小的曝光容量

Generally speaking, the utilization for the advanced technology are higher than the mature technology

一般來說，先進技術的利用率高於成熟技術

Would it be in the 90 plus percent range, can we say capacity are very tight or that would be supply of capacity in that segment?

它會在 90% 以上的範圍內嗎，我們可以說產能非常緊張，還是該部分的產能供應？

No we have not reached that stage

不，我們還沒有達到那個階段

Okay. And for your capex that you have budgeted for this year, roughly what percent of this capex would be going to adding the incremental capacity versus enhancing the process nodes that you look at FT (ph)?

好的。對於您為今年制定的資本支出預算，該資本支出的大致百分比是用於增加增量容量還是增強您在 FT (ph) 中看到的流程節點？

As I said earlier, the increase will be 0.13 micron capacity. We do not have any plan to upgrade the older technology.

正如我之前所說，增加的將是 0.13 微米的容量。我們沒有任何升級舊技術的計劃。

Okay. One final question, if I may ask. If you could provide, because in your guidance you have said that perhaps second quarter both the 0.13 micron and also the overall revenue base should increase. Is it based on your experience of seasonality, or are you seeing some visibility from the customers?

好的。最後一個問題，如果我可以問的話。如果你能提供，因為在你的指導中你說過也許第二季度 0.13 微米和整體收入基數都應該增加。它是基於您的季節性經驗，還是您看到了客戶的一些可見性？

It's not seasonality. I think it's sort of our general feeling of the industry momentum. I think plus, I think we expect certain customer will be able to deliver in larger quantities of 0.13 to them

這不是季節性的。我認為這是我們對行業發展勢頭的普遍感覺。我認為另外，我認為我們希望某些客戶能夠向他們交付更多的 0.13

We're certainly, to compliment Harvey's comments, we're of course working with customers for their demand forecast in the next few quarters. And I think the demand for 0.13 - at least the demand forecast of 0.13 for more customers definitely is increasing over the quarters

我們當然要讚揚哈維的評論，我們當然會與客戶合作，了解他們在未來幾個季度的需求預測。而且我認為對 0.13 的需求——至少對更多客戶的 0.13 需求預測在這幾個季度中肯定在增加

Okay. Thank you

好的。謝謝

Our next question comes from Matt Gable (ph) with Calypso (ph) Capital. Please go ahead with your question

我們的下一個問題來自 Matt Gable (ph) 和 Calypso (ph) Capital。請繼續你的問題

I was wondering if you gave any Q1 guidance on gross margin EPS and if you gave any guidance on total 2003 revenue in EPS.

我想知道您是否給出了第一季度每股收益毛利率的指導，以及您是否給出了 2003 年每股收益總收入的指導。

We don't. We are not allowed to do that by our regulatory agencies.

我們沒有。我們的監管機構不允許我們這樣做。

And did you say that 0.13 micron revenue would be down sequentially in Q1.

您是否說過 0.13 微米的收入將在第一季度連續下降。

We did not say that. We said it would be up.

我們沒有那樣說。我們說它會起來。

Would be up sequentially. Thank you very much for clarifying that. Thank you.

會依次上升。非常感謝您澄清這一點。謝謝。

Our next question comes from Kalpesh Kapedia (ph) with Ungeberg.

我們的下一個問題來自 Kalpesh Kapedia (ph) 和 Ungeberg。

The consumer segment which was down 15 percent quarter to quarter in quarries and due to customer inventories and market weakness. What do you see -- you talked about flat percentage composition going into Q1, what do you see in terms of units going into Q1 for consumer segment?

由於客戶庫存和市場疲軟，採石場的消費品季度環比下降 15%。你看到了什麼——你談到了進入第一季度的固定百分比構成，你對進入第一季度消費者細分市場的單位有什麼看法？

I think for Q1 the consumer will stay flat to maybe a minor decrease. There is the seasonal factor will continue into Q1.

我認為對於第一季度，消費者將持平甚至略有下降。季節性因素將持續到第一季度。

Typically seasonally it's down 10, 15 percent for the end market standpoint, exiting Q4. But do you think flat to minor degrees, there's something else going on there?

從終端市場的角度來看，通常季節性下降 10%、15%，第四季度結束。但是你認為平坦到較小的程度，那裡還有其他事情嗎？

We don't see -- I think some of our products probably don't really follow the seasonality factor as well, as much as the regular end-market indicators. So I think that particular one may have impact on our mix. I'm not sure that will be consistent with the general market.

我們沒有看到——我認為我們的一些產品可能也沒有真正遵循季節性因素，就像常規的終端市場指標一樣。所以我認為那個特定的可能會對我們的組合產生影響。我不確定這是否與一般市場一致。

What's your view on the general market for Q1? Consumer? What is your view of the general market for consumers in Q1?

您對第一季度的整體市場有何看法？消費者？您對第一季度消費者的總體市場有何看法？

I think Q1, in general, it's still flat to weak. We don't see a strong first quarter in general

我認為 Q1，總的來說，它仍然持平到疲軟。我們總體上看不到第一季度的強勁表現

Is that specific strength you have seen, is it related to any particular product or customer or is it just the new product?

您所看到的特定優勢是什麼，它與任何特定產品或客戶有關，還是僅僅是新產品？

As I said, we do have one specific product I think to behave somewhat differently from the seasonality factor. I cannot really tell you what that product is.

正如我所說，我認為我們確實有一種特定產品的表現與季節性因素有所不同。我真的不能告訴你那個產品是什麼。

Thank you anyways.

無論如何謝謝你。

Our next question comes from Alec Berman with Pangea Capital. Please go ahead with your question

我們的下一個問題來自 Pangea Capital 的 Alec Berman。請繼續你的問題

A couple questions. Any thoughts yet as far as 90 nanometer, when that might ramp, when that might become meaningful or small percentage of revenues, what time frame that might occur in? And also the wireless, wire line mix, whether you have a sense of mix of wireless and wire line in Q4 and Q1 and a couple of follow-up questions.

幾個問題。任何關於 90 納米的想法，什麼時候可能會增加，什麼時候可能變得有意義或占收入的一小部分，可能發生在什麼時間範圍內？還有無線、有線混合，你是否有 Q4 和 Q1 中無線和有線混合的感覺，以及幾個後續問題。

The first question is regarding the 90 nanometers. As we stated before, our 90 nanometer qualification will be done sometime in the end of second quarter this year or early third quarter. We do not really expect volume production for the remainder of the year. Some kind of a volume pass-through might occur near the end of the year, I believe. I don't think I catch your second question well.

第一個問題是關於 90 納米的。正如我們之前所說，我們的 90 納米資格認證將在今年第二季度末或第三季度初的某個時間完成。我們真的不希望今年剩餘時間實現量產。我相信，在年底附近可能會出現某種交易量傳遞。我認為我沒有很好地理解你的第二個問題。

I was asking about communications and what was the approximate breakdown between the wireless and the wire line piece of communications in the fourth quarter and how did you see that in the first quarter.

我問的是通信，第四季度無線和有線通信之間的大致故障是什麼，你在第一季度是怎麼看的。

In general, wireless will grow stronger compared to wire line. From point of view, it's also significantly larger, wireless than wire line

一般來說，與有線相比，無線會變得更強大。從角度來看，它也明顯更大，無線比有線

Great. Comparison basis, okay. And based on the cap ex you're talking about right now, I don't know if you said it already, what's your assumption, what will happen to your wafer start capacity in 2003 versus where it ended 2002? How much do you think that will grow?

偉大的。比較基礎，好吧。根據你現在談論的 cap ex，我不知道你是否已經說過，你的假設是什麼，你的晶圓啟動產能在 2003 年與 2002 年結束時會發生什麼變化？你認為它會增長多少？

You're asking assumption, wafer start in 2003?

您是在問假設，2003 年開始生產晶圓？

Your capacity. What will your capacity be at the end of 2003 versus what it is right now? What's your guess, based on your current thoughts

你的能力。與現在相比，2003 年底您的產能是多少？根據你目前的想法，你的猜測是什麼

As you see, our capacity actually increased a little ability la bit last quarter. The last quarter, increased by roughly six percent from roughly one billion to one billion and 60,000 plus. And if right now most likely it will go up to more than 1.1 million per quarter by the time we get to fourth quarter

如您所見，上個季度我們的產能實際上增加了一點點。上個季度，從大約 10 億增加到 10 億和 60,000 多個，增長了大約 6%。如果現在很可能到第四季度時每季度將超過 110 萬

All right. Thanks

好的。謝謝

Our next question comes from Greg Punezny (ph) with Piper Jaffray, please go ahead with your question

我們的下一個問題來自 Greg Punezny (ph) 和 Piper Jaffray，請繼續你的問題

Could you talk a little bit about what types of products you're currently running at 0.13 with copper and what types of products you expect to move on to that technology node as you move throughout the year?

您能否談談您目前使用銅以 0.13 運行哪些類型的產品，以及您希望在全年移動時將哪些類型的產品轉移到該技術節點？

I think the product covers -- communication to computer such as handsets, computer, TC graphics. Quite a few wire line communication products. So of course the FPGA products, strong CPU, network processors. I think the ones that will move into 0.13 are probably the DVD players, some of the set top boxes. I think we're seeing more DSL customers are moving

我認為該產品涵蓋與計算機的通信，例如手機、計算機、TC 圖形。相當多的有線通信產品。所以當然是FPGA產品，強大的CPU，網絡處理器。我認為將進入 0.13 的可能是 DVD 播放器，一些機頂盒。我認為我們看到更多的 DSL 客戶正在遷移

Is that going to happen gradually throughout the year, or is there a period of the year where you expect a number of these products to move to 0.13 simultaneously?

這會在全年逐漸發生，還是一年中有一段時間您預計這些產品中的一些會同時升至 0.13？

Probably not necessarily continuously. This is very much customer-dependent, whether they're to utilize over time or not that sort of thing. So I think the intention for them is to move into production sooner rather than later. We're getting pretty steady takeouts every month of 0.1

可能不一定連續。這在很大程度上取決於客戶，他們是否會隨著時間的推移使用這類東西。所以我認為他們的意圖是儘早投入生產。我們每個月都會收到 0.1 的相當穩定的外賣

Also, I wanted to ask you, based on your current information from customers, what do you think Q2 looks like in terms of what we could see for sequential revenue growth from Q1?

另外，我想問你，根據你目前從客戶那裡得到的信息，你認為從第一季度開始的連續收入增長來看，第二季度是什麼樣子的？

I don't think that we can give you sort of a number right now. But we certainly, the feeling right now is that as we have already stated [inaudible] that the feeling right now is we should hit bottom sometime this quarter and we expect to see sequential growth in the second quarter. If you want me to guess, I would guess that would be a double digit growth on a quarter-over-quarter basis

我不認為我們現在可以給你一個數字。但我們當然，現在的感覺是，正如我們已經說過的[聽不清]，現在的感覺是我們應該在本季度的某個時候觸底，我們預計第二季度會出現連續增長。如果你想讓我猜的話，我猜這將是環比兩位數的增長

Great. Thank you

偉大的。謝謝

Next question comes from Christina Osmeda with Needham and Company

下一個問題來自 Christina Osmeda 和 Needham and Company

Do the announced capex plans include capex plans for JVs and if not what are they and what were the actuals in 2002

宣布的資本支出計劃是否包括合資企業的資本支出計劃？如果沒有，它們是什麼？2002 年的實際情況是什麼

Repeat it again.

再重複一遍。

Does your capex budget include your capex for the JV?

您的資本支出預算是否包括合資企業的資本支出？

No

不

Could you give us a breakout, please of that?

你能給我們一個突破嗎？

For 2003, actually, the cap ex number are actually fairly modest. Wafer tech is below $10 million. [Inaudible] roughly 30 million and assets SMC around 25 million

實際上，2003 年的 cap ex 數字相當適中。晶圓技術低於 1000 萬美元。 [聽不清] 大約 3000 萬，資產 SMC 大約 2500 萬

Okay. Was it just as low in 2002, and if not could you give us a breakout of that, too?

好的。它和 2002 年一樣低嗎？如果不是，你能給我們一個突破嗎？

2002 --

2002 --

I'm sorry, I .

對不起，我。

I'm sorry, I don't have that information. Could you send us an e-mail to invest@tsmc.com I'll reply you on that.

對不起，我沒有那個信息。你能給我們發一封電子郵件到 invest@tsmc.com 我會回复你的。

Okay. Thanks

好的。謝謝

Next question comes from Shalesh Jayzee with Nomura Securities.

下一個問題來自野村證券的 Shalesh Jayzee。

Could you share your timetable for expansion plans in China. Do you expect them to keep moving this year?

你能分享一下你在中國的擴張計劃的時間表嗎？你預計他們今年會繼續前進嗎？

We don't actually have a timetable because we're not in control of the timetable, our government is in control of the timetable. Assuming we just now come to the first stage of approval and there are a few other hurdles we have to wade through, assuming we'll be able to go through all those procedures smoothly, the fastest I think we can ramp up production is second half next year

我們實際上沒有時間表，因為我們無法控制時間表，我們的政府可以控制時間表。假設我們現在剛剛進入審批的第一階段，還有一些其他的障礙我們必須克服，假設我們能夠順利通過所有這些程序，我認為我們最快可以提高產量是下半年明年

I didn't get it. You said second half of next year?

我沒明白。你說明年下半年？

Yeah. That's the fastest that -- if everything moves smoothly

是的。這是最快的——如果一切順利的話

Thanks. Also if you could just help explain the EPS decline which you're guiding forward, despite your expectations of improving product mix.

謝謝。另外，儘管您期望改善產品組合，但您能否幫助解釋您正在指導的每股收益下降。

Yeah, yes, we do expect improvement, pickup in terms of the shipment of 0.13. But at this point that the number of wafers is still not significant enough plus the fact that there are of those 0.13 solutions want 0.15, 0.18, 0.13 so for this quarter we expect total wafers that ship for 0.15, 0.18, 0.13, will be roughly the same. And I think last quarter I think we see pretty good improvement in terms of 0.13 use. And it seems the customer are really buying ties, not buying wafers. So the use went down significantly not buying wafers but the reason why we expect sort of a flat growth that this quarter in terms of advanced technologies.

是的，是的，我們確實希望在 0.13 的出貨量方面有所改善。但此時晶圓數量仍然不夠多，加上這些 0.13 解決方案中有 0.15、0.18、0.13 的事實，因此本季度我們預計 0.15、0.18、0.13 出貨的晶圓總數將大致為相同。而且我認為上個季度我認為我們在 0.13 使用方面看到了相當不錯的改進。看起來顧客真的是在買領帶，而不是威化餅。因此，使用量大幅下降不是購買晶圓，而是我們預計本季度先進技術將出現持平增長的原因。

Irene Leo is now online.

Irene Leo 現已上線。

Excuse me?

打擾一下？

I was trying to understand, should your improving years, overall should increase despite you're being paid on DI-basis rather than wafer?

我試圖理解，儘管你的報酬是基於 DI 而不是晶圓，但你的改善年限應該總體增加嗎？

Depends on customer, yeah. It's primarily on tie basis.

取決於客戶，是的。這主要是在平局的基礎上。

Okay. Thank you

好的。謝謝

Our next question comes from Mark Fitzgerald with Bank of America Securities. Please go ahead with your question

我們的下一個問題來自美國銀行證券公司的馬克菲茨杰拉德。請繼續你的問題

Thank you. Can you give us an idea in the fourth quarter what the mask business was in terms of percentage of revenues for the company?

謝謝。你能告訴我們第四季度口罩業務占公司收入的百分比嗎？

The mask usually account for less than 10 percent of the total revenue

面膜通常佔總收入不到10%

Okay. And do you have any idea of the number of your customers that are running wafers with you that are using your mask shop?

好的。您是否知道使用您的掩模車間與您一起運行晶圓的客戶數量？

Most of them. I would say 90 percent plus

他們中的大多數。我會說百分之九十以上

Okay. Thank you.

好的。謝謝。

Ladies and gentlemen, if you have any additional questions, please press star followed by the 1 at this time. If you are using speaker equipment, you will need to lift the handset before pressing the numbers. One moment please for our next question. Our next question comes from Shaw Lavin. Please go ahead with your question

女士們，先生們，如果您有任何其他問題，請按星號，然後按 1。如果您使用的是揚聲器設備，則需要在按數字之前拿起聽筒。請稍等一下我們的下一個問題。我們的下一個問題來自 Shaw Lavin。請繼續你的問題

A few questions. Just clarifying depreciation. Harvey, you mentioned we can annualize it on a Q4 number basis. But will it actually come down first in the first quarter and then bring some of it, bump in the fourth quarter might be related to the inventory and then ride through the year to get to the annualized number?

幾個問題。只是澄清折舊。哈維，你提到我們可以根據第四季度的數字對其進行年度化。但它真的會在第一季度先下降然後帶來一些，第四季度的增長可能與庫存有關，然後通過一年來達到年化數字嗎？

No, depreciation number has nothing to do with inventory.

不，折舊數與存貨無關。

So it will stay flat during the year, is that what you mean by taking a fourth quarter number and analyzing it?

所以它在這一年內將保持平穩，這就是你所說的第四季度的數字並進行分析的意思嗎？

Roughly.

大致。

Okay. Now, your guidance that your growth will be higher than the industry. Will it be fair to say that you would be very disappointed if you grew anything less than, say, two times the industry growth rate in 2003?

好的。現在，您的指導說明您的增長將高於行業。公平地說，如果您的增長低於 2003 年行業增長率的兩倍，您會非常失望嗎？

Yes, those are fair questions. I will not say it's fair or not fair.

是的，這些都是公平的問題。我不會說這公平或不公平。

All right. The inventory sales in fourth quarter, was the gross margin substantially lower than your overall gross margin in fourth quarter?

好的。第四季度的庫存銷售，毛利率是否大大低於第四季度的整體毛利率？

You mean -- can you repeat it

你的意思是——你能重複一遍嗎

The revenues you generated from the inventories that you shipped in fourth quarter, was that gross margin lower than your overall gross margins, in other words to state substantially lower?

您從第四季度發貨的庫存中產生的收入，毛利率是否低於您的整體毛利率，換句話說，顯著降低？

We saw some statements in the analyst reports. Those are not really true.

我們在分析報告中看到了一些陳述。這些都不是真的。

Question on pricing, you talk about a general pricing decline, what is driving that? Is it competitive dynamics, primarily and I guess you're saying it's across the board. But then you pretty highly utilize the cutting edge, so why there's pricing pressure and do you think it will sustain through next year or is it sort of a run off early in the year or how does it look?

關於定價的問題，你談到普遍的定價下降，是什麼推動了它？主要是競爭動態嗎，我猜你是說它是全面的。但是你相當高地利用了尖端技術，那麼為什麼會有定價壓力，你認為它會持續到明年還是在今年年初有點流失或者它看起來如何？

Basically where we encounter pricing pressure because of the old economic demand and supply law. And then also I think that maybe Rick can help on this, is from customer, I think they migrate from the one technology to another. They also need to be -- have to be economically justified to them. So they have sort of their own formal way of calculating this. For example, I think that [inaudible] that 0.18 and technology from 0.15 to 0.18 was [inaudible] but when we further migrate to 0.13, actually there were a lot of challenges and we gradually overcome them. Which means actually the cost of wanting to bring 0.13 is really significantly higher. So as far as the customer is concerned they're still looking at sort of their formula trying to figure out that this is the economically justifiable to them or not. So sometimes we will constantly actually wrestling with seems like that. They don't care what your cost is. And so that's I think cost certain pricing pressure

基本上，由於舊的經濟供求規律，我們遇到定價壓力。然後我認為也許 Rick 可以在這方面提供幫助，來自客戶，我認為他們從一種技術遷移到另一種技術。他們還需要——必須在經濟上對他們來說是合理的。所以他們有自己的正式計算方法。例如，我認為 [聽不清] 0.18 和從 0.15 到 0.18 的技術是 [聽不清] 但是當我們進一步遷移到 0.13 時，實際上有很多挑戰，我們逐漸克服了它們。這意味著實際上想要帶來 0.13 的成本確實要高得多。因此，就客戶而言，他們仍在研究他們的公式，試圖弄清楚這對他們來說是否在經濟上是合理的。所以有時我們會不斷地與這樣的事情搏鬥。他們不關心你的成本是多少。所以這就是我認為成本一定的定價壓力

Really the biggest price -- end market pressure. All the high volume product that you can think of or have very deep price production curve. You probably know that better than we do

真正最大的代價——終端市場壓力。您能想到的所有大批量產品或具有非常深的價格生產曲線。你可能比我們更了解這一點

Okay. Talking about high volume for 2003. I imagine handsets, wireless handset is probably one of your top growth areas. What will be the other two or three key growth areas in that you would be looking forward to for the year.

好的。談到 2003 年的高銷量。我想手機、無線手機可能是你們增長最快的領域之一。您期待今年的其他兩個或三個關鍵增長領域是什麼？

We believe the handset, some of the wireless LAN, I think the display devices, some of the consumer stuff, I think the camera and the DVD will continue also growth this year.

我們相信手機，一些無線局域網，我認為顯示設備，一些消費品，我認為相機和 DVD 今年也會繼續增長。

Okay. Let me just step back here and -- make a quick comparison of 2002 with let's say year 2000. The reason for that being the revenues are roughly at a similar level. But obviously the earnings are significantly lower. The biggest difference I can think of is the two. One is depreciation is higher. Obviously your position is a lot lower. So as it improves, there's a lot of flow through, I imagine, into the margins. I was wondering if you would agree with that, that the flow through in the coming year will be very high? And second, is perhaps the other gap that I see is in the non-operating side whereas you had a positive number in 2000, you have I a very large negative number in 2002. And I'm wondering if there are any significant strategic steps you want to do to address that so there are two questions there.

好的。讓我退後一步，將 2002 年與 2000 年進行快速比較。原因是收入大致處於相似水平。但顯然收益要低得多。我能想到的最大區別是兩者。一是折舊率較高。顯然你的位置低了很多。因此，隨著它的改進，我想會有很多流量流入利潤率。我想知道您是否同意來年的流量會非常高？其次，我看到的另一個差距可能是在非運營方面，而 2000 年是正數，2002 年是非常大的負數。我想知道是否有任何重要的戰略步驟你想解決這個問題，所以那裡有兩個問題。

Well, I think that your observation is generally correct that we basically agree that certainly utilization is the biggest factor. Of course our own experience, with respect to those good years, even mature technology, utilization still stay very high. A lot of times they're still fully loaded. But right now I think what we see is that we do see a lot of excess capacity in the more mature technologies. We also see people continue to build in China. I think they're certainly I think effect the loaded number of the mature technology, which will then I think effect the profitability. Your second question, you're talking about.

好吧，我認為您的觀察大體上是正確的，我們基本上同意利用率肯定是最大的因素。當然我們自己的經驗，相對於那些好的年頭，即使是成熟的技術，利用率還是很高的。很多時候他們仍然滿載。但現在我認為我們看到的是，我們確實看到更成熟的技術存在大量產能過剩。我們還看到人們繼續在中國建設。我認為他們肯定會影響成熟技術的加載數量，我認為這將影響盈利能力。你說的第二個問題。

Yes, investment income

是的，投資收益

Yes. well, our investment is primarily in these three entities, wafer fab, SSMC and Vanguard. Wafer tag and SMSC, they really, they just, in terms of the fab at the wrong timing. So they're not able to run. I think as quickly as they would like to. So that is a problem. But wafer tag actually, we have been paying a lot of attention to get more loading. Right now they are still, I think, useful to certain customers North American and we don't really have any plans in terms of wafer tag. In terms of SSMC, it is there. They have not even reached a kind of peak yet, so I think its sort of a pre-mature judgement.

是的。好吧，我們的投資主要在這三個實體，晶圓廠，SSMC和Vanguard。晶圓標籤和 SMSC，他們真的，他們只是在錯誤的時間就晶圓廠而言。所以他們跑不了。我想他們想的一樣快。所以這是一個問題。但事實上，wafer tag，我們一直在關注以獲得更多的負載。我認為，現在它們仍然對某些北美客戶有用，我們在晶圓標籤方面並沒有任何計劃。就 SSMC 而言，它就在那裡。他們甚至還沒有達到某種高峰，所以我認為這是一種過早的判斷。

On the Vanguard, it is an independent company and actually we ought to talk about it this afternoon in the Vanguard release about strategy.

在 Vanguard 上，它是一家獨立的公司，實際上我們應該在今天下午的 Vanguard 戰略發布中討論它。

Thank you

謝謝

Our next question comes from Jonathan Ross with Goldman Sachs. Please go ahead with your question

我們的下一個問題來自高盛的喬納森羅斯。請繼續你的問題

Hello. Just two quick questions. First one has to do with Nexsys (ph) and I know it's probably early days there, but you have been trying to position your 90 nanometer offering as a common industry platform. I'm wondering if you're still pursuing this and do you see any traction there, or is it just still too early to say? I'll ask the second question after this.

你好。只是兩個簡單的問題。第一個與 Nexsys (ph) 有關，我知道這可能還處於早期階段，但您一直在嘗試將您的 90 納米產品定位為一個通用的行業平台。我想知道你是否還在追求這個，你是否看到任何牽引力，或者現在說還為時過早？之後我會問第二個問題。

Yeah, I think the fact that we're building the 90 nanometer technology, together with the, with the other partners in the joint technology development program, basically [inaudible] perhaps you're also right it's probably a bit too early to tell right now. [Inaudible] we're just starting to ramp 0.13 not too long ago. I think that most of the industry, if you look at the companies in the industry, most of them -- and now even 0.13 production yet. You can look at the foundry industry, clearly

是的，我認為我們正在與聯合技術開發計劃中的其他合作夥伴一起構建 90 納米技術，基本上 [聽不清] 也許你也是對的，現在說對吧，可能有點為時過早現在。 [聽不清] 不久前我們才剛剛開始提升 0.13。我認為大多數行業，如果你看一下行業中的公司，他們中的大多數——現在甚至還有 0.13 的產量。可以看看代工行業，一清二楚

Great. Thank you. Second question, just quickly related to the book-to-bill that Morris showed this afternoon, right around 1.25. You're guiding for essentially flat shipments in the first quarter. So just a quick question. Is the pickup in book-to-bill you're showing then, is that entirely a function of shipments, in other words the denominator falling, or are orders also rising but you're being conservative in guiding for a flat first quarter? Book-to-bill is a ratio, the numerator you've got orders and the denominator you've got shipments. So the big pick up in the book-to-bill could be a function of shipments falling or orders rising, but you are guiding flat on shipments in the first quarter. So just wondering if that means that the pickup in the book-to-bill is just really past shipments falling off.

偉大的。謝謝。第二個問題，很快就與莫里斯今天下午展示的訂單出貨比相關，大約在 1.25 左右。您正在指導第一季度基本持平的出貨量。所以只是一個快速的問題。那麼您顯示的訂單到賬單的提貨是否完全是出貨量的函數，換句話說，分母下降，或者訂單也在增加，但您在指導第一季度持平時持保守態度？訂單出貨比是一個比率，分子是訂單，分母是發貨。因此，訂單出貨比的大幅回升可能是出貨量下降或訂單增加的結果，但您對第一季度的出貨量持平。所以只是想知道這是否意味著訂單到賬單中的提貨真的只是過去的發貨量下降。

I think it's in that category and we are not purposely giving you a low number in terms of wafer shipment.

我認為它屬於那個類別，我們並不是故意給你一個較低的晶圓出貨量。

Great. Thanks Harvey.

偉大的。謝謝哈維。

Our next question comes from Pernaud Kumar de Sarnay (ph) with Daiwa Institute of Research.

我們的下一個問題來自大和研究所的 Pernaud Kumar de Sarnay (ph)。

First question is basically on 0.13 micron level. If you can give us some color whether you are making money at this particular technology node or especially at the gross profit level or if not when do you think you'll be able to break even in this particular node?

第一個問題基本上是0.13微米級別的。如果你能給我們一些顏色，你是否在這個特定的技術節點上賺錢，或者特別是在毛利潤水平上，或者如果不是，你認為你什麼時候能夠在這個特定的節點上實現收支平衡？

Right now, the volume is not large enough to reach a break-even. But I think that sometimes second half we should be able to reach that level

目前，交易量還不足以達到收支平衡。但我認為有時候下半場我們應該能夠達到那個水平

Next one is on the 90 millimeter, of course you said it may be a little too early but my main question is probably with a little bit foundry model, from 90 nanometer technology do you think you need to change your foundry model a little bit. Maybe basically on the more basic material resource as well?

下一個是關於 90 毫米的，當然你說這可能有點太早了，但我的主要問題可能是代工模型，從 90 納米技術開始，你認為你需要稍微改變你的代工模型嗎？也許基本上也是在更基本的物質資源上？

The foundry strategy, what are you thinking about? Is it from business model?

代工戰略，你在想什麼？是來自商業模式嗎？

I'm talking about the R&D point of view.

我說的是研發的觀點。

, yeah I think not just from 90 nanometer, I starting its about 0.13 micron. Your foundry technology strategy. I'm not sure we call it strategy. But that we have been spending more resources in R&D. And we are also, you're also right in saying we're spending money on more longer term research. We actually have an organization under our CTO, Dr. Chenming Hu who besides the research [inaudible] R&D,

，是的，我認為不僅僅是從 90 納米開始，我從大約 0.13 微米開始。您的鑄造技術戰略。我不確定我們稱之為戰略。但我們一直在研發上投入更多資源。我們也是，你說我們在更長期的研究上花錢也是對的。實際上，我們的 CTO Chenming Hu 博士領導下有一個組織，除了研究 [聽不清] 研發外，

Is it safe to say in that case probably by year 2004 your R&D expenses might go above 10 percent of your revenue?

在那種情況下，到 2004 年，您的研發費用可能會超過收入的 10%，這樣說是否安全？

No, I think that will be probably an over estimate.

不，我認為這可能是高估了。

Thank you very much

非常感謝

Our next question comes from Leo Lee with ABN Amro. Please state your question

我們的下一個問題來自荷蘭銀行的 Leo Lee。請說出你的問題

My question is regarding the depreciation and amortization. Actually, in the presentation we had seen a depreciation & amortization of about 16.1 billion. However, in a detailed note we see the depreciation in the first quarter only 13.3 billion. So what's the difference, why the amortization number go up to close to three billion? And are we booking under the cost of goods sold or are the other administration expense is my first question?

我的問題是關於折舊和攤銷。實際上，在演示文稿中我們看到了大約 161 億的折舊和攤銷。但是，在詳細的說明中，我們看到第一季度的貶值只有 133 億。那麼有什麼區別，為什麼攤銷數字會上升到接近三十億？我的第一個問題是我們是按銷售成本預訂還是其他管理費用？

Can you explain again?

你能再解釋一下嗎？

Yes, in the presentation we are seeing that total depreciation and amortization is about 16.1 million.

是的，在演示文稿中我們看到折舊和攤銷總額約為 1610 萬。

I understand that. I just want you to repeat your last statements.

我明白那個。我只想讓你重複你最後的話。

I think that in page number 3 of the detailed note, we are talking about gross margin analysis. And actually in this chart, in the first chart we mention in the first quarter 2002 that depreciation number is only 13.3 billion. Just wondering why the amortization number go, the difference between 16.1 to 30.3. why did it go up to such a big number in the fourth quarter. And are we booking under the cost of goods sold or the other operating expenses

我認為在詳細說明的第 3 頁，我們正在談論毛利率分析。實際上在這張圖表中，在我們提到的 2002 年第一季度的第一個圖表中，折舊數字僅為 133 億美元。只是想知道為什麼攤銷數去，16.1 到 30.3 之間的差異。為什麼在第四季度上升到這麼大的數字。我們是根據銷售成本還是其他運營費用進行預訂

We're booking under other operating expenses. They are under expenditures that are amortized

我們在其他運營費用項下預訂。它們在攤銷的支出項下

I see. My second question is regarding the capex number, assuming that we have around 1.2 billion this year. Would that be like a front end loaded or the back end loaded and what's the percentage, can we give several numbers here?

我懂了。我的第二個問題是關於資本支出數字，假設我們今年有大約 12 億美元。那是前端加載還是後端加載，百分比是多少，我們可以在這裡給出幾個數字嗎？

Leo, did you just join the conference call, because we went over that at the beginning of the conference call?

Leo，你剛剛加入電話會議嗎，因為我們在電話會議開始時討論過這個問題？

Sorry about that. My last question would be regarding the wafer tech. Are we expecting it to break even by the end of this year?

對於那個很抱歉。我的最後一個問題是關於晶圓技術。我們預計到今年年底它會收支平衡嗎？

Depends on the business conditions and the demand, certainly, I think they should be able to make money. It's really a function of utilization

看企業的情況和需求，當然，我覺得應該是可以賺錢的。這真的是一個利用的功能

Okay. I see. Because I think I remember that last time company mentioned regarding the 0.13 will be around 20 percent, more than 20 percent by the end of this year. If that's indeed the case right now.

好的。我懂了。因為我想我記得上次公司提到 0.13 將在 20% 左右，到今年年底將超過 20%。如果現在確實是這樣的話。

That's still the scenario we see. Around 20 percent, that's still the scenario. But I think this is a dynamic world. It's subject to change.

這仍然是我們看到的場景。大約 20%，情況仍然如此。但我認為這是一個充滿活力的世界。它可能會發生變化。

Thank you very much

非常感謝

Our next question comes from Carlin Carinder (ph) with Bear Stearns. Please state your question.

我們的下一個問題來自貝爾斯登的 Carlin Carinder (ph)。請說出你的問題。

My question relates to the ASP decline of seven percent is that a typical ASP decline you see in the absence in a change in technology mix towards the higher end?

我的問題與 7% 的 ASP 下降有關，您看到的典型 ASP 下降是在沒有向高端技術組合發生變化的情況下發生的嗎？

Well, it's not a typical for us to see that ASP change in the higher technology shipment, because in the past always the increase percentage of that technology, this is actually something new to us.

好吧，我們看到 ASP 在更高技術出貨量中的變化並不典型，因為過去總是該技術的增長率，這對我們來說實際上是新事物。

But if all things were constant would you normally see a seven percent decline in ASPs, quarter on quarter?

但是，如果一切都保持不變，您通常會看到 ASP 環比下降 7% 嗎？

We don't normally see that, as you know well.

正如您所知，我們通常不會看到這一點。

I guess my second question is, you obviously mentioned that your technology mix would improve in Q2. But if you're sort of comparing apples to apples, what would roughly sort of the ESP decline be in the seven percent range in Q2 also? Is this a trend which is developing in terms of just of more pricing pressure?

我想我的第二個問題是，你顯然提到你的技術組合將在第二季度得到改善。但是，如果您將蘋果與蘋果進行比較，那麼第二季度的 ESP 下降幅度在 7% 範圍內的大致範圍是多少？這種趨勢是否只是在定價壓力更大的情況下發展起來的？

Well, we have indicated in the afternoon that we do expect the advanced technology percentage will go up and that overall ASP should go up. If we -- saying if we knowing that factor, I guess this is -- we can make some assumptions, but I would assume that the pricing level would not be as significant as what we have seen in the first quarter

好吧，我們在下午表示我們確實預計先進技術的百分比會上升，整體平均售價應該會上升。如果我們 - 說如果我們知道這個因素，我想這是 - 我們可以做出一些假設，但我會假設定價水平不會像我們在第一季度看到的那樣重要

Okay. Thank you.

好的。謝謝。

Our next question comes from Ashesh Kumar with CSFB. Please go ahead

我們的下一個問題來自 CSFB 的 Ashesh Kumar。請繼續

In your book-to-bill of point 125 in type A is that for the month of December or the month of January?

在您的 A 類第 125 點的訂單到賬單中，是 12 月還是 1 月？

Actually nobody said 1.25 from the company side. It's all from the audience side that they are saying this. Then also we are not showing any pb (ph) ratio in the first quarter. So those are the fourth quarter graph.

實際上公司方面沒有人說1.25。他們都是從聽眾的角度說這些的。然後我們在第一季度也沒有顯示任何 pb (ph) 比率。這些是第四季度的圖表。

I'm sorry, but January is almost over. How does that look for January, just the trend not 1.25. Is it higher or lower compared to December?

抱歉，一月快結束了。一月份的情況如何，只是趨勢不是 1.25。與 12 月相比是更高還是更低？

I actually don't think 1.25 is the right number.

實際上我認為 1.25 不是正確的數字。

I was asking that irrespective of the number, as you said this has come more from us than the company. Is the book-to-bill showing a trend which is inching up or for January or December or is it flatish or is it trending down?

我問的是不管數量如何，正如你所說，這更多地來自我們而不是公司。 1 月或 12 月的訂單出貨比是否顯示出緩慢上升的趨勢，還是持平或呈下降趨勢？

It's not inching up. It is down.

它沒有緩慢上升。它下來了。

Thank you very much.

非常感謝。

At this point we can only take one more question

此時我們只能再做一個問題

Our final question comes from Daniel Haylor (ph) with Merrill Lynch. Please go ahead with your question

我們的最後一個問題來自美林證券的 Daniel Haylor (ph)。請繼續你的問題

Hi guys. What was the book-to-bill, Harvey? Because those charts, you eyeball it, looked like it was close to 1.25. What was the actual number?

嗨，大家好。哈維，訂單出貨量是多少？因為那些圖表，你仔細觀察，看起來接近 1.25。實際數字是多少？

We had talked about in the news release they're all over one.

我們在新聞稿中談到過它們是一體的。

Yes, but the chart that was flashed today was pretty close to 1.2, no?

是的，但今天閃現的圖表非常接近 1.2，不是嗎？

Harvey, I think they're referring to one of the handouts. I think for the month of December it's book-to-bill ratio is quite a bit better than 1. I think the trend -- the trend for January, Harvey, is not as good as December. But I think still reasonably good.

哈維，我認為他們指的是其中一份講義。我認為 12 月份的訂單出貨比比 1 好很多。我認為趨勢——哈維，1 月份的趨勢不如 12 月份。但我認為還是相當不錯的。

More than one. Then second on the IDM business you said that the IDM business actually declined in the fourth quarter. That was somewhat counter intuitive given some of the strength I guess you had seen in the wireless area from the IDM business. Was that decline in share more a function of some of the inventory that you were clearing out? And if so where do you see the IDM business going in the first quarter?

超過一個。其次是 IDM 業務，你說 IDM 業務實際上在第四季度有所下降。鑑於我猜你已經從 IDM 業務的無線領域看到了一些優勢，這有點違反直覺。份額的下降更多是因為您正在清理一些庫存嗎？如果是這樣，您如何看待 IDM 業務在第一季度的發展情況？

I think January is pretty correctly and our yield has been improving especially along the .12 micron area. I think our, the ratio probably will improve, will go up somewhat in the first quarter

我認為一月份是非常正確的，我們的產量一直在提高，尤其是在 0.12 微米區域。我認為我們的比率可能會有所改善，第一季度會有所上升

I guess I'm particularly interested in seeing what you're seeing for the IDM outsourcing business for the first half. What can we kind of model in terms of growth rate? Should it be growing at a much faster rate or in a mildly faster rate than your overall business?

我想我特別想知道上半年 IDM 外包業務的情況。我們可以在增長率方面建立什麼樣的模型？它的增長速度應該比您的整體業務快得多還是略快？

Dan, I think anywhere between 30, 35 percent is pretty normal, will be a pretty good range for our business, from IDM customers. We have a very strong fabless customer base. They do grow pretty well also. But on the other hand, I think IDM outsource rate is -- I don't think it's slowing down. Probably not as fast as [inaudible]

丹，我認為 30% 到 35% 之間的任何地方都很正常，這對我們的業務來說是一個很好的範圍，來自 IDM 客戶。我們擁有非常強大的無晶圓廠客戶群。他們也長得很好。但另一方面，我認為 IDM 外包率是——我不認為它正在放緩。可能不如 [聽不清]

Right. And the richer mix nature of that is helping it grow, yes? That is, it's predominantly, the advanced technology portion that unlike previous downturns, is it a much higher ratio than --

正確的。更豐富的混合性質正在幫助它成長，是嗎？也就是說，它主要是先進技術部分，與以前的經濟衰退不同，它的比率是否比 -

I think you're right as we're reaching the advanced technology.

我認為你是對的，因為我們正在使用先進的技術。

Just on the mask situation, given the huge number of discussions on mask costs and the second half of last year. Given that your volume on 0.13 is reaching some nice economies of scale, are you starting to see mask costs internally start to come down along a more normal cost down curve?

就口罩情況而言，考慮到去年下半年關於口罩成本的大量討論。鑑於您在 0.13 上的交易量達到了一些不錯的規模經濟，您是否開始看到掩膜成本在內部開始沿著更正常的成本下降曲線下降？

You mean our mask costs, production costs?

你是說我們的口罩成本，生產成本？

Correct.

正確的。

I think actually mask has one of the best cost structure in the industry for both scale of economy and really a very good, excellent operation management organization. And I'm quite sure our -- it applies to our 0.13 micron mass.

我認為實際上 Mask 在經濟規模和真正非常優秀的運營管理組織方面擁有業內最佳成本結構之一。而且我很確定我們的 - 它適用於我們的 0.13 微米質量。

I guess where I'm coming from is I've heard mixed points on 0.13 mask that we've been hearing some reports that the actual merchant market costs have been coming down of late. And I was just wondering if, did you agree with that? And are you seeing, are you helping people move down that curve as well?

我想我的出發點是我聽到關於 0.13 掩碼的混合點，我們聽到一些報告說實際的商業市場成本最近一直在下降。我只是想知道，你同意嗎？你看到了嗎，你也在幫助人們沿著這條曲線向下移動嗎？

It's a function of supply and demand. We're certainly, I think one sure thing is we do not do our mask business. I mean we do not make our mass to be the bottleneck of the wafer business.

這是供求關係的函數。我們當然是，我認為可以肯定的是我們不做我們的面具業務。我的意思是我們不會讓我們的質量成為晶圓業務的瓶頸。

Right. Given that you've got the leverage of amortizing the costs across --

正確的。鑑於你有分攤成本的槓桿——

Yeah, we have flexibility. But we also have a very efficient operation compared to our other competitors [inaudible] I believe.

是的，我們有靈活性。但我相信，與其他競爭對手 [聽不清] 相比，我們的運營效率也非常高。

Thanks, that's it.

謝謝，就是這樣。

Okay. Thanks. I think we have a pretty good 80 minute session and I want to thank you all who joined us this morning and this evening. And we'll see you next time.

好的。謝謝。我認為我們有一個很好的 80 分鐘會議，我要感謝今天早上和今晚加入我們的所有人。我們下次再見。

Before we conclude, TSMC's fourth quarter 2002 earnings revenues conference call today, please be advised that this replay of the conference call will only be accessible through TSMC's web site at www.tsmc.com. Thank you all.

在我們結束今天台積電 2002 年第四季度收益收入電話會議之前，請注意電話會議的重播只能通過台積電的網站 www.tsmc.com 訪問。謝謝你們。