西蒙地產 (SPG) 2024 Q4 法說會逐字稿

Greetings, and welcome to the Simon Property Group fourth quarter 2024 earnings conference call. (Operator Instructions) As a reminder, this conference is being recorded. It is now my pleasure to introduce your host, Tom Ward, thank you. You may begin.

大家好，歡迎參加西蒙地產集團 2024 年第四季財報電話會議。 （操作員指示）提醒一下，本次會議正在錄音。現在我很高興介紹您的主持人湯姆沃德，謝謝。你可以開始了。

Thank you, Matt, and thank you all for joining us this evening. Presenting on today's call are David Simon, Chairman, Chief Executive Officer and President; Brian McDade, Chief Financial Officer; and Adam Reuille, Chief Accounting Officer.

謝謝你，馬特，也謝謝大家今晚參加我們的活動。參加今天電話會議的有董事長、執行長兼總裁戴維·西蒙 (David Simon)； Brian McDade，財務長；以及首席會計官 Adam Reuille。

A quick reminder that statements made during this call may be deemed forward-looking statements within the meaning of the safe harbor of the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995 and actual results may differ materially due to a variety of risks, uncertainties and other factors. We refer you to today's press release and our SEC filings for a detailed discussion of the risk factors relating to those forward-looking statements.

需要快速提醒的是，本次電話會議中所作的聲明可能被視為《1995 年私人證券訴訟改革法》安全港含義內的前瞻性聲明，並且實際結果可能因各種風險、不確定性和其他因素而存在重大差異。請您參閱今天的新聞稿和我們向美國證券交易委員會提交的文件，以詳細討論與這些前瞻性陳述相關的風險因素。

Please note that this call includes information that may be accurate only as of today's date. Reconciliations of non-GAAP financial measures to the most directly comparable GAAP measures are included within the press release and the supplemental information in today's Form 8-K filing. Both the press release and the supplemental information are available on our IR website at investors.simon.com. Our conference call this evening will be limited to 1 hour. (Operator Instructions)

請注意，本次通話中包含的資訊可能僅在今天有效。新聞稿和今天的 8-K 表文件中的補充資訊中包含了非 GAAP 財務指標與最直接可比較的 GAAP 指標的對帳表。新聞稿和補充資訊均可在我們的 IR 網站 investors.simon.com 上找到。我們今晚的電話會議將限制在 1 小時內。 （操作員指令）

I am pleased to introduce David Simon.

我很高興介紹大衛·西蒙。

Simon. Good evening. I'm pleased with our financial and operational results in the fourth quarter, concluding an exceptional year for our company. We reported record total funds from operation of $4.9 billion or $12.99 per share. We generated $4.6 billion in real estate FFO or $12.24 per share, which was growth of 3.9% year-over-year. We returned a record of more than $3 billion to shareholders in cash dividends. And now we have paid approximately $45 billion to shareholders in dividends over our history as a public company.

西蒙。晚安.我對我們第四季度的財務和營運業績感到滿意，這對我們公司來說是一個非凡的一年。我們報告稱，營運資金總額達到創紀錄的 49 億美元，即每股 12.99 美元。我們的房地產 FFO 為 46 億美元，即每股 12.24 美元，年增 3.9%。我們向股東返還了創紀錄的超過 30 億美元的現金股利。在我們作為上市公司的歷史上，我們已經向股東支付了大約 450 億美元的股息。

We saw record leasing and retail sales volume and occupancy gains for the year. We completed last week, the acquisition of the mall, two well-known luxury outlet centers in Italy from Kering. We look forward to adding these high-quality luxury assets into our global portfolio while continuing to build upon their success. We opened a new fully leased Premium Outlet in Tulsa, Oklahoma, and we completed 16 significant redevelopment projects during the year.

今年，我們的租賃和零售銷售量以及入住率均創下了歷史新高。我們上週完成了從開雲集團收購義大利兩家知名奢侈品直銷中心和購物中心的交易。我們期待將這些高品質的奢侈資產納入我們的全球投資組合，同時繼續鞏固其成功。我們在俄克拉荷馬州塔爾薩開設了一家新的、已全面出租的 Premium Outlet，並且在年內完成了 16 個重大重建項目。

Development, redevelopment opportunities are growing within our portfolio. We delivered our A-rated balance sheet, providing additional capacity and flexibility to fund future growth.

我們的投資組合中的開發和再開發機會正在增加。我們提供了 A 級資產負債表，為未來成長提供了額外的能力和靈活性。

Now I'm going to turn it over to Brian, who we will cover our fourth quarter results in more detail and provide our outlook for 2025.

現在我將把時間交給 Brian，他將更詳細地介紹我們第四季度的業績並提供我們對 2025 年的展望。

Real estate FFO was $3.35 per share in the first in the fourth quarter compared to $3.23 in the prior year, 3.7% growth. Domestic and international operations had a very good quarter and contributed $0.18 of growth. During the quarter, we sold assets that resulted in a tax benefit which partially offset the prior tax expense from our ABG sale and essentially offset a write-off of predevelopment costs associated with a joint venture development project in California.

第四季第一季房地產 FFO 為每股 3.35 美元，去年同期為 3.23 美元，成長 3.7%。國內和國際業務本季表現非常好，貢獻了 0.18 美元的成長。在本季度，我們出售了產生稅收優惠的資產，這部分抵消了我們 ABG 出售產生的前期稅收支出，並基本上抵消了與加州合資開發項目相關的前期開發成本的註銷。

Leasing momentum continued across the portfolio. We signed more than 1,500 leases for 6.1 million square feet in the quarter. For the year, we signed a record 5,500 leases for more than 21 million square feet. Approximately 25% of our leasing activity for the year were new deals. Malls and outlet occupancy at the end of the fourth quarter was 96.5%, an increase of 70 basis points compared to the prior year. Our year-end occupancy is the highest level over the last 8 years.

整個投資組合的租賃動能持續強勁。本季度，我們簽署了 1,500 多份租約，總面積達 610 萬平方英尺。今年，我們創紀錄地簽署了 5,500 份租約，面積超過 2,100 萬平方英尺。我們今年的租賃活動中約有 25% 是新交易。第四季末商場及專賣店入住率為96.5%，較上年同期增加70個基點。我們的年終入住率是過去8年來的最高水準。

The Mills occupancy was 98.8%, an increase of 1% and is at a record level. Average base minimum rent for the malls and outlets increased 2.5% year-over-year and the Mills increased 4.3%. Retailer sales per square foot was $739 for the year. Strong revenue growth across our businesses, combined with expense discipline, resulted in a 100-basis point increase year-over-year in our industry-leading operating margin. Our occupancy cost at the end of the year was 13%.

Mills 的入住率為 98.8%，上漲 1%，達到歷史最高水準。購物中心和奧特萊斯的平均最低基本租金年增 2.5%，而 Mills 則上漲 4.3%。當年零售商每平方英尺的銷售額為 739 美元。我們各項業務的收入強勁成長，加上費用嚴格控制，使我們的產業領先營業利潤率年增了 100 個基點。我們年底的入住成本是13%。

Domestic NOI increased 4.4% year-over-year for the quarter and 4.7% for the year. Portfolio NOI, which includes our international properties at a constant currency, grew 4.5% for the quarter and 4.6% for the year. Fourth quarter funds from operations were $1.39 billion or $3.68 per share compared to $1.38 billion or $3.69 per share last year.

本季國內 NOI 年成長 4.4%，全年成長 4.7%。投資組合淨營運收入（包括我們以固定匯率計算的國際資產）本季成長了 4.5%，全年成長了 4.6%。第四季營運資金為 13.9 億美元，即每股 3.68 美元，去年同期為 13.8 億美元，即每股 3.69 美元。

Fourth quarter results include $0.20 per share of noncash after-tax gain from the combination of JCPenney and SPARC Group. The mark-to-market fair value of Klepierre's exchangeable bonds increased year-over-year, which offset a lower contribution from OPI operations. As a reminder, the prior year results include $0.33 per share in gain from the sale of part of our interest in ABG last year.

第四季業績包括 JCPenney 和 SPARC Group 合併產生的每股 0.20 美元的非現金稅後盈餘。 Klepierre 可交換債券的市價公允價值年增，抵銷了 OPI 業務貢獻的下降。提醒一下，去年的業績包括去年出售我們在 ABG 部分權益所得的每股 0.33 美元的收益。

Turning to new development and redevelopment. This year, we will open our first Premium Outlets in Jakarta, Indonesia in March and expect to begin construction on 4 to 5 mixed-use projects throughout the year. We expect to fund these redevelopments and mixed-use projects with our internally generated cash flow of over $1.5 billion after our dividend payments.

轉向新開發和再開發。今年3月，我們將在印尼雅加達開設第一家Premium Outlets名牌折扣購物中心，並預計全年開工4至5個綜合用途項目。我們預計，在支付股息後，我們將利用內部產生的超過 15 億美元的現金流為這些重建和綜合用途項目提供資金。

Other platform investments, JCPenney and SPARC Group combined to form a portfolio of iconic retailer banners called Catalyst Brands. Catalyst brings together SPARC's brands, Arrow Postal, Brooks Brothers, Eddie Bauer, Lucky and Nautica with JCPenney in its exclusive private brands. Catalysts sold Reebok in early January and is currently evaluating strategic options for Forever 21. We view the Catalyst transaction as a positive development that will create significant synergies with a solid balance sheet that will enable the company to drive EBITDA growth.

其他平台投資，JCPenney 和 SPARC Group 合併形成了一個名為 Catalyst Brands 的標誌性零售商品牌組合。 Catalyst 將 SPARC 的品牌 Arrow Postal、Brooks Brothers、Eddie Bauer、Lucky 和 ​​Nautica 與 JCPenney 的獨家自有品牌整合在一起。 Catalysts 我們認為 Catalyst 交易是積極的發展，將與穩健的資產負債表產生顯著的協同效應，使公司能夠推動 EBITDA 成長。

Catalyst shareholders include Simon, Brookfield, Authentic Brands Group and Sheen.

Catalyst 的股東包括 Simon、Brookfield、Authentic Brands Group 和 Sheen。

Turning to the balance sheet. During 2024, we completed $11 billion in financing activities, including issuing $1 billion in senior notes for the 10-year term and a 4.75% interest rate. We recasted our $3.5 billion revolving credit facility, with maturity extended to January of 2030 and no change in pricing or terms, and completed over $6 billion of secured loan refinancings and extensions.

轉向資產負債表。 2024年，我們完成了110億美元的融資活動，包括發行10年、利率4.75%的10億美元優先票據。我們調整了 35 億美元的循環信貸安排，將到期日延長至 2030 年 1 月，價格或條款沒有變化，並完成了超過 60 億美元的擔保貸款再融資和延期。

Lastly, we delevered our balance sheet by approximately $1.5 billion in the year and ended the year at 5.2 times net debt to EBITDA. Our A-rated balance sheet provides a distinct advantage with more than $10 billion of liquidity at year-end.

最後，我們今年將資產負債表的槓桿率降低了約 15 億美元，年底淨債務與 EBITDA 比率為 5.2 倍。我們的 A 級資產負債表提供了獨特的優勢，年底的流動資金超過 100 億美元。

Additionally, today, relative to our dividend, we announced a dividend of $2.10 per share for the first quarter, a year-over-year increase of 7.7%. The dividend is payable on March 31.

此外，今天，相對於我們的股息，我們宣布第一季的股息為每股 2.10 美元，比去年同期成長 7.7%。股息將於3月31日支付。

Now moving on to our 2025 guidance. Our real estate -- our real estate FFO guidance range is $12.40 to $12.65 per share. Our guidance reflects the following assumptions: Domestic property NOI growth of at least 3%, increased net interest expense compared to 2024 of between $0.25 to $0.30 per share, reflecting current market interest rates and projected cash balances compared to 2024. Lastly, our diluted share count of approximately 377 million shares and units outstanding.

現在我們來談談 2025 年的指導。我們的房地產—我們的房地產 FFO 指引範圍是每股 12.40 美元至 12.65 美元。我們的指引反映了以下假設：國內房地產 NOI 成長至少 3%，與 2024 年相比，淨利息支出增加 0.25 美元至每股 0.30 美元，反映當前市場利率和與 2024 年相比預計的現金餘額。

Due to the recent Catalyst Brands transaction, we will not include Catalyst guidance at this time. We expect there will be significant savings and synergies from the combination that will be coupled with potential restructuring costs. We expect Catalyst will generate positive EBITDA in fiscal 2025 and roughly breakeven FFO as they work through the combination.

由於最近的 Catalyst Brands 交易，我們目前不會納入 Catalyst 指引。我們預計，此次合併將帶來顯著的節省和綜效，同時也帶來潛在的重組成本。我們預計，Catalyst 在合併過程中將在 2025 財年產生正的 EBITDA，並且大致達到損益兩平的 FFO。

With that, thank you, and David and I are now available for your questions.

謝謝您，我和戴維現在願意回答您的問題。

(Operator Instructions)

（操作員指令）

Jeff Specter, Bank of America.

美國銀行的傑夫‧斯佩克特 (Jeff Specter)。

Great. I know you'll get through some of the numbers through some of the other questions. I wanted to focus on some of the initiatives you have to bring people to the mall. I know you have the Tomorrow Stars, the meet you at the mall, when your traffic was up at malls, Premium Outlets, can you talk a little bit more about some of the programs initiatives that you're doing to, again, bring the shopper to the mall? And how did those programs go for the holiday season? Thank you.

偉大的。我知道你會透過其他一些問題了解到一些數字。我想重點介紹吸引人們到商場的一些舉措。我知道你們有明日之星，他們會在購物中心與你們見面，當時你們的購物中心、名牌折扣購物中心的客流量很大，你們能否再談談你們正在實施的一些計劃和舉措，以便再次吸引購物者到購物中心？這些節目在假期期間進展如何？謝謝。

Well, listen, I think we're leaders in this area. Our national advertising campaign is all about talking about how it's fun to go to the mall and hang out just like in the '80s and '90s, we had a very good reception to it. We rebranded Simon Premium Outlets to Shop Simon. We're in the midst of creating our loyalty program. So -- and then obviously, we've got events -- thousands of events that drive traffic through the year, whether it's breast cancer awareness programs, Valentines Day, basically, every major event that occurs within the US, we try to drive an event around it, Easter down the road.

嗯，聽著，我認為我們是這個領域的領導者。我們的全國廣告活動都是關於如何讓大家感受到逛商場和閒逛的樂趣，就像 80 年代和 90 年代那樣，我們對此非常歡迎。我們將 Simon Premium Outlets 更名為 Shop Simon。我們正在創建我們的忠誠度計劃。所以 — — 顯然，我們舉辦了數千場活動 — — 全年吸引大量流量，無論是乳腺癌宣傳活動、情人節，基本上，美國境內發生的每一項重大事件，我們都會嘗試圍繞它舉辦一場活動，比如復活節。

So I couldn't be prouder of our marketing efforts. They're very digital. They're very fun. They use new media in a lot of ways. And I just expect more and more -- and more importantly, we're seeing return on investment. And we've got the data to prove that. And not that our peer group is wide and deep, but to the extent that it is, there's nobody doing more when it comes to data, digital comments -- commerce with Charles Simon, marketing events. You put it all together, we're leaps and bounds compared to what else is out there. Thank you.

因此我對我們的行銷努力感到無比自豪。它們非常數位化。他們非常有趣。他們以多種方式使用新媒體。我只是期待更多——更重要的是，我們看到了投資回報。我們有數據可以證明這一點。並不是說我們的同儕群體廣泛且深厚，而是就數據和數位評論（與查爾斯·西蒙進行商業活動、行銷活動）而言，沒有人做得比我們更好。如果你把所有這些綜合起來，你會發現我們與其他公司相比已經取得了長足的進步。謝謝。

Steve Sakwa, Evercore ISI.

史蒂夫·薩誇（Steve Sakwa），Evercore ISI。

Yeah, thanks. Good evening, David, you guys obviously had a great year with 21 million square feet of leasing, occupancy up, given where you're sitting on the occupancy side, I'm just curious how the discussions that your leasing team are having with the retailers is kind of shifting. And maybe talk about the pricing power and how that's kind of returned to the mall for the As. And to tie that into NOI growth, you've talked about greater than 3%, but you certainly beaten 4% for the last like 3 years in a row. So what are we missing on the 3% front? And maybe just comment on pricing power. Thank you.

是的，謝謝。晚上好，大衛，你們今年的表現非常出色，租賃面積達到了 2100 萬平方英尺，入住率也上升了，考慮到你們在入住率方面所處的位置，我只是好奇你們的租賃團隊與零售商的討論有何轉變。也許可以談論定價權以及如何將其返還給 A 的商場。為了將其與 NOI 成長聯繫起來，您談到了超過 3% 的成長，但在過去連續 3 年中，您的成長肯定超過了 4%。那麼我們在 3% 方面缺少了什麼呢？或許只是對定價權進行評論。謝謝。

Well, let me just talk about 3%. So look, we -- as we did last year, we budget flat sales. Why? I don't really know, but that's what we do. And when you do that, we've come up with a conservative number. To the extent that we have sales growth like we did this year, again, maybe not overall, but the retailers that matter, we generate overage rent, which obviously pops our NOI growth.

好吧，我只談 3%。所以看，我們 - 正如我們去年所做的那樣，我們預算銷售持平。為什麼？我確實不知道，但這就是我們所做的。當你這樣做時，我們得出了一個保守的數字。如果我們的銷售額像今年一樣成長，那麼可能不是整體成長，但對於重要的零售商來說，我們會產生超額租金，這顯然會促進我們的淨營業收入成長。

So I hope we're being conservative. Obviously, there's pretty good animal spirits in the US and its economy. We expect to participate in that. And again, I don't like the word pricing power. I just think we're able to -- we have deep relationships with our retailers. And we're able to generate a lot of new business. We see new retailers approach us all the time and new uses all the time, which essentially allows us to -- and one of the big things to grow, we're never stuck with the tenant mix that we have.

所以我希望我們能夠保持保守。顯然，美國及其經濟有著相當強烈的動物精神。我們希望參與其中。再說一次，我不喜歡定價權這個詞。我只是認為我們能夠——我們與零售商建立了深厚的關係。我們能夠創造許多新業務。我們看到新的零售商一直在與我們接洽，並且一直在有新的用途，這實際上使我們能夠——也是實現成長的一大因素是，我們永遠不會局限於現有的租戶組合。

So what -- and I think Brian knows the numbers specifically, but I think 25% of our leases this year renew. So what's driving a lot of what we do is we're able to take the retailers that aren't doing the sales and replace them with ones that will, and that -- because they'll do better volume, that drives rent growth. And then I don't call that pricing power. I just think that's improving our mix and doing what we need to do to drive our business forward.

那又怎樣——我認為布萊恩知道具體的數字，但我認為今年我們有 25% 的租約會續簽。因此，我們所做的許多事情的驅動力就是，我們可以選擇那些沒有進行銷售的零售商，並用那些可以進行銷售的零售商取而代之，因為他們的銷量會更好，從而推動租金成長。但我不稱之為定價權。我只是認為這會改善我們的組合，並做我們需要做的事情來推動我們的業務向前發展。

And as I said, I think, last call is we still think we have an opportunity because, frankly, we've been organizationally very focused on the -- for no better word, the As. We do think there's real effort, focus, growth for us in the Bs where we're investing our dollars. So that's a big program for us in '25 and '26.

正如我所說，我認為，最後的決定是我們仍然認為我們有機會，因為坦白說，我們在組織上一直非常專注於——沒有更好的字眼了，就是 A。我們確實認為，我們在 B 領域投入了真正的努力、專注和成長。所以這對我們25年和26年來說是一個大計畫。

And just to cap off your question, we still feel -- and again, it's hard to predict because there's always downtime, bankruptcies, et cetera. But we still feel like we have upside in our occupancy. We're still not at our high that was 97.1%, if I remember right, in 2014, Tom's shaking his head, yes. So we still -- some message to my leasing team, if they're listening. I don't mind if they're not, if they're making a lease, but assuming they're listening, let's get up to our record high in 2014, and then we'll take a deep breath, but we won't till then.

回到你的問題，我們仍然感覺到——再說一次，這很難預測，因為總是會有停機、破產等等。但我們仍然覺得我們的入住率還有上升空間。如果我沒記錯的話，我們還沒達到 2014 年的最高水準 97.1%，湯姆搖著頭，是的。因此，如果我們的租賃團隊在聽的話，我們仍然會向他們傳達一些訊息。如果他們不這樣做，或者簽訂了租約，我並不介意，但是假設他們在聽，那麼讓我們在 2014 年達到歷史最高水平，然後我們就可以深呼吸了，但是在那之前我們不會這樣做。

Michael Goldsmith, UBS.

瑞銀的麥可‧戈德史密斯。

Good evening. Thanks a lot for taking my question. Maybe just following off the last one, right, the NOI expectation dropped from 4% last year and for the last several years, down to 3%. So bridging the gap between those expectations, it sounds like some of that is retail sales. But it sounds like occupancy, there's still upside, but is there the same magnitude of upside? And then also, are you taking into account any sort of tenant bankruptcies or credit reserve in that as well, which is driving that by 100 basis points? Thanks.

晚安.非常感謝您回答我的問題。也許只是延續上一個，對吧，NOI 預期從去年的 4% 下降到過去幾年的 3%。因此，彌合這些預期之間的差距，聽起來其中一部分是零售額。但聽起來入住率仍有上升空間，但上升幅度是否相同？另外，您是否也考慮了任何類型的租戶破產或信用儲備，這會導致 100 個基點的成長？謝謝。

Hey Michael, it's Brian. So I think, first, we've historically put out at least 3% at the beginning of every year, including last year and then have subsequently beat that, which we've repeated here. I think you just heard David talk about the overage component we budgeted, assumed sales were flat. So there's a negative componentry mathematically to overage in the subsequent year.

嘿，邁克爾，我是布萊恩。因此我認為，首先，從歷史上看，我們每年年初都會投入至少 3%，包括去年，然後隨後就超過了這個數字，我們在這裡重複了這一點。我想你剛剛聽到大衛談論了我們預算的超額部分，假設銷售額持平。因此，從數學上講，下一年超額會產生負面影響。

You heard us just talk about mix. And so as we swap out tenants for new tenants, there is downtime, specifically associated with our full-price business as we build out those stores. Last thing I would mention, you just mentioned bad debt. Our numbers in '25 take it into consideration our historical approach to bad debt. We did slightly better than that in 2024, but we've taken an appropriate expectation into '25 relative to our standard approach.

您剛才聽到我們談論了混合。因此，當我們將租戶替換為新租戶時，就會出現停機時間，具體來說，這與我們在建造這些商店時的全價業務有關。最後我想說的是，您剛才提到了壞帳。我們 25 年的數據考慮到了我們處理壞帳的歷史方法。我們在 2024 年的表現略好一些，但相對於我們的標準方法，我們對 2025 年做出了適當的預期。

So those are the 3 major drivers that would get you kind of back to a -- from this year's number down to a 3% number for -- again, as a baseline starting in '25.

因此，這 3 個主要驅動因素會讓你從今年的數字回到 3% 左右，同樣，這是從 25 年開始的基準。

Very helpful. Thank you very much.

非常有幫助。非常感謝。

Craig Milman, Citi.

花旗銀行的克雷格‧米爾曼 (Craig Milman)。

Thanks, It's Nick Joseph here with Craig. David, I just want to touch on the potential impact for tariffs. Obviously, the news keeps changing. But just broadly, what are you hearing from your retailers? How is it impacting their business and kind of the uncertainty there and the potential impact of the de minimis exemption going away?

謝謝，我是克雷格，我是尼克約瑟夫。大衛，我只想談談關稅的潛在影響。顯然，新聞不斷變化。但總體來說，您從零售商那裡聽到了什麼消息？這對他們的業務有何影響？

Yeah, but I don't, it's interesting. Just our first -- I don't know where every retailer sources their good. But if you take Catalyst as an example, they only source 20% of their goods with all the brands of about 20 -- in China, okay? So -- and when we talk to Catalyst, their view of it is with respect to China that they will pass some of it on to the consumer, but also hope that the supplier tightens up the cost of goods sold. So many, many retailers have moved a lot of production out of China over the last several years.

是的，但是我不知道，這很有趣。這只是我們的第一次——我不知道每個零售商從哪裡採購他們的商品。但如果以 Catalyst 為例，他們所有約 20 個品牌的商品中只有 20% 是在中國購買的，好嗎？因此——當我們與 Catalyst 交談時，他們的觀點是，就中國而言，他們會將部分成本轉嫁給消費者，但也希望供應商降低銷售商品的成本。過去幾年裡，許多零售商將大量生產遷出中國。

And the good news is where we had the most exposure was shoes, which Reebok would have been more exposed. But as you know, we disposed of the Reebok operating business in January. So no one is really -- honestly, it hasn't affected buyout day-to-day decision-making. And it's relatively reduced amount for the retail.

好消息是，我們曝光率最高的是鞋子，而銳步的曝光率會更高。但如你所知，我們於一月份處理了銳步營運業務。所以沒有人真正——老實說，它並沒有影響日常的收購決策。對於零售來說，數量相對較少。

What's really going to be helpful to the American retailers and the non-Chinese retailers is to get rid of the de minimis rule, which basically exempts tariffs if you send a package over $800 to a customer. That's not a level playing field. That causes retailers to pay more, that ship in bulk and it's given real benefits to someone like Tau where they shipped purposely under the $800. Congress is taking up.

對美國零售商和非中國零售商真正有益的是廢除最低限度規則，該規則基本上規定，如果你向客戶發送價值超過 800 美元的包裹，就可以免徵關稅。這不是一個公平的競爭環境。這使得零售商需要支付更多的錢，進行大量運輸，這給像 Tau 這樣故意將運輸價格定在 800 美元以下的公司帶來了真正的好處。國會正在處理。

I know the President is taking it up, and that will absolutely be -- if enacted, will give a real shot in the arm to retailers that don't purposely try to send their goods to get under the $800 limitation. Not only to say it's also more green, it saves packaging costs, et cetera. It's good for our country. And I hope Congress and/or the President enact it. That, to me, is more material than any tariffs that are being talked about.

我知道總統正在考慮這個問題，一旦頒布，將為那些不刻意將商品價格控制在 800 美元以下的零售商提供真正的推動力。不僅如此，它還更環保，節省了包裝成本等等。這對我們的國家有好處。我希望國會和/或總統能夠頒布該法案。對我來說，這比正在談論的任何關稅都更為重要。

It's very helpful.

這非常有幫助。

Floris Van Dijkum, Compass Point.

弗洛里斯·範·迪庫姆 (Floris Van Dijkum)，Compass Point。

Hey, thanks for taking my question. Good to hear your voice, David. A couple of questions, but I guess I'm going to focus on the -- your latest acquisition in Italy. I note that Kering just snuck into your top 10 list this past quarter prior to the acquisition. I'm curious if you can talk about that acquisition, the returns that you expect to achieve, how you might be able to manage those assets going forward? .

嘿，謝謝你回答我的問題。很高興聽到你的聲音，大衛。我有幾個問題，但我想我將重點關注您在義大利的最新收購。我注意到，在收購之前的上個季度，開雲集團 (Kering) 剛剛悄悄進入了您的前十名榜單。我很好奇，您能否談談這次收購、您期望實現的回報以及您未來將如何管理這些資產？ 。

And also, what would Kering's percentage have been, had they been included? I guess -- I know that your top 10 is domestic only, but how much of an impact would that have on the -- if you were to include Kering's exposure in Europe as well?

此外，如果將開雲集團也包括在內，那麼他們的份額會是多少？我想——我知道您的前 10 名僅限於國內市場，但如果您將開雲集團在歐洲的曝光率也納入其中，這會有多大影響？

Well, let's -- on that particular point, you'll see that in our next supplement. So -- it will go up, but you'll see that in our next supplement. Look, I would say we're under a confidentiality agreement on the details other than the price, I will tell you we've been very, as you know, very selective on acquisitions. And we're only buying top stuff at the right price. This follows 100% of that strategy.

好吧，關於這一點，您會在我們的下一篇補充資料中看到。所以 - 它會上升，但你會在我們的下一個補充中看到它。聽著，我想說的是，除了價格之外，我們對其他細節都簽署了保密協議，我會告訴你，正如你所知，我們在收購方面非常挑剔。我們只以合適的價格購買頂級產品。這完全符合該策略。

So it's top stuff at the right price, Kering will remain a long-term tenant in that. They have a very -- they've had historically a very competent group that ran it for them, obviously, because they're not -- that's not their main business, as you know. We've taken over that team, we'll help them with strategic guidance and we think there's upside in the business.

因此，如果產品是頂級的，且價格合理，開雲集團將繼續成為其長期租戶。他們有一個非常——他們歷史上一直有一個非常能幹的團隊為他們管理，顯然，因為——如你所知，這不是他們的主要業務。我們已經接管了該團隊，我們將為他們提供策略指導，我們認為業務上存在上升空間。

We think it's NAV accretive for us. We also think it's earnings accretive for us. So it again is something we wanted to do years and years ago, but they weren't ready to do it. We're extremely excited about doing it. The location, Itay is in a renaissance. So it's got one of the positive growths in the EU, and this is -- these are the kind of deals we want to do and buy it at the right price. It's accretive to NAV, accretive to earnings, but it's also high quality with the right retailers -- and we couldn't have done a -- we couldn't have picked a better asset in terms of this.

我們認為這能為我們帶來資產淨值增值。我們也認為這會為我們增加收益。所以這是我們多年前就想做的事情，但他們還沒準備好。我們對此感到非常興奮。伊泰 (Itay) 地理位置優越，正處於復興時期。因此，它是歐盟的積極增長之一，這就是——我們想要達成的交易，並以合適的價格購買。它能增加資產淨值，增加收益，如果找到合適的零售商，它的品質也很高——從這個角度來說，我們不可能選擇比它更好的資產。

Thanks, David.

謝謝，大衛。

Greg McGinnis, Scotiabank.

加拿大豐業銀行的格雷格·麥金尼斯。

Hey, good evening, David. Following up on your comment regarding the focus on B mall investments in 2025, '26. Are you able to talk about the types of investments that you make in those malls, whether it differs from how you would approach investing in an A mall? And then any detail on the magnitude of those investments and expected return? Thanks.

嘿，晚上好，大衛。繼續跟進您關於 2025 年、2026 年重點關注 B 購物中心投資的評論。您能否談談您在這些商場中進行的投資類型，它與投資 A 級商場的方式是否不同？那麼這些投資的規模和預期回報有什麼細節嗎？謝謝。

I'll just be very generic. Brian can lay it out for you later. But to me it's a whole combination of things. These are important assets in the communities. We've been focused on the bigger assets historically. So it's a combination of adding boxes, updating the look, feel of the place, restaurants, tenants, everyone changes a little bit differently.

我就說得非常籠統。 Brian 可以稍後為您詳細說明。但對我來說，這是多種因素的綜合。這些都是社區的重要資產。我們過去一直專注於更大的資產。所以它是增加盒子、更新外觀、地方感覺、餐廳、租戶的組合，每個人都有一點不同的變化。

But I'll just take Smith Haven as an example, we're going to -- I've got to be careful because I don't know if I can announce it even though the lease is signed. So they got an announcement coming, this is in basically Eastern Long Island where we're going to update, renovate the property, add a great retailer and a huge box. We just added Primark, a hospital just opened up there, one of their health facilities.

但我僅以史密斯港為例，我們要——我必須小心，因為即使租約已經簽署，我也不知道是否可以宣布這一點。所以他們發布了一個公告，基本上是位於長島東部的，我們將更新、翻新物業，增加一個大型零售店和一個巨大的倉儲中心。我們剛剛在那裡增加了 Primark，這是一家剛開業的醫院，也是他們的醫療機構。

And that will probably be about a 12% return and over the next couple of years. And it will be a renovated, rejuvenated asset that because of all the progress we've made in the bigger ones, we're able to kind of reenergize our focus on an asset like that. But the -- a list of those is long.

未來幾年的回報率大概會達到 12% 左右。它將是一項經過翻新、煥發活力的資產，由於我們在較大資產上取得的所有進展，我們能夠重新將注意力集中在這樣的資產上。但—這些的清單很長。

So Brian can go through it, but that's just one that kind of jumps to top of mind. And to my team, I'm supposed to see a press release on that, but I haven't seen it. So please move that along. Thank you.

所以布萊恩可以經歷這一切，但這只是他首先想到的事情。對於我的團隊來說，我應該看到有關此事的新聞稿，但我還沒有看到。因此請繼續關注。謝謝。

Alexander Goldfarb, Piper Sandler.

亞歷山大·戈德法布，派珀·桑德勒。

Hey, good evening, David. Good to hear you and, I'm sure the people at Smithtown will appreciate the dollar spend. A question on your guidance for '25. Obviously, very good versus expectations despite the headwinds on the interest expense that Brian laid out.

嘿，晚上好，大衛。很高興聽到您的消息，我相信史密斯鎮的人們會感激您花的錢。關於您對 25 年的指導，有一個問題。顯然，儘管 Brian 指出利息支出存在阻力，但業績仍遠超預期。

So my question is, is this back to sort of the old Simon days, pre-pandemic, where you guys just had strong internal growth that was accelerating? Or is this more about removing OPI drag from the future? I'm just trying to understand if this is just all the side but not yet leases taking effect or if truly the underlying portfolio is accelerating, and we're going back to where you guys used to be pre-pandemic when the core portfolio would just -- was really just humming along.

所以我的問題是，這是否回到了疫情前的西蒙時代，那時你們的內部成長強勁，並且正在加速？或者這是否意味著未來可以消除 OPI 阻力？我只是想知道這是否只是所有附帶的但尚未生效的租約，或者基礎投資組合是否真的在加速，而我們將回到大流行之前的狀態，當時核心投資組合只是——真的只是嗡嗡作響。

Well, the $12.40 to $12.65 excludes Catalyst. The other investments in OPI are small. So they're and again, they're either FFO is probably the wrong way to look at those investments. But they run through FFO anyway because they're one is an asset management company and one is an e-commerce marketplace and an e-commerce retailer. And so FFO is the least important metric on those, but they run through our numbers.

嗯，12.40 美元到 12.65 美元不包括催化劑。對 OPI 的其他投資規模較小。因此，他們再次認為，FFO 可能是看待這些投資的錯誤方式。但他們無論如何都會透過 FFO 來經營，因為他們一個是資產管理公司，一個是電子商務市場，一個是電子商務零售商。因此，FFO 是其中最不重要的指標，但它貫穿了我們的數字。

So Catalyst is outside of that number, and I don't like the word old, Alex, but yes -- no, we're growing the portfolio, what we said at least 3%. I think we've said at least 3% in the last 2 years, maybe three, I don't remember, 3 years, Brian say. So hopefully, we can beat that.

因此，Catalyst 不在該數字之內，而且我不喜歡用「舊」這個詞，亞歷克斯，但是是的 — — 不，我們正在擴大投資組合，我們說過至少會成長 3%。布萊恩說，我認為我們說過，過去兩年至少成長了 3%，或者可能是三年，我不記得了，三年。所以希望我們能夠戰勝它。

And that's basically all the stuff that leads to that, which is leasing, focused operational margins, events, Simon Brand Ventures, replacing boxes, restaurants, all of the basics and we still see that. I think we've got a pretty good run, forget the big juice that we got back from getting back the business after we were unreasonably shut down by various state governments. But we've been clipping along 4 plus percent, even though we guided to 3%, and let's see how this year transpires, but we've got a lot going for us.

這些基本上都是導致這種情況的原因，包括租賃、集中營運利潤、活動、西蒙品牌風險投資、更換箱子、餐館，所有的基本要素，我們仍然看到這些。我認為我們的經營狀況非常好，忘記了我們在被各州政府無理關閉後重新獲得業務所獲得的巨大回報。但是，儘管我們預計成長 3%，但我們的成長速度已經超過了 4%，讓我們看看今年的情況如何，但我們已經有很多事情要做。

And the biggest of which is a great team, leasing is focused. We feel that there's upside in the portfolio across the board. But primarily in our historical bread and butter properties. We're going to do smart deals, we're prudent with a hell of a balance sheet. And I think -- and we're leased, leased, leased, I think it's not overly complicated.

其中最重要的是擁有優秀的團隊，我們專注於租賃。我們認為整個投資組合都有上漲空間。但主要還是在我們歷史悠久的產業上。我們將會進行明智的交易，我們將審慎處理出色的資產負債表。而且我認為——我們已經租賃、租賃、租賃了，我認為這並不太複雜。

And then Catalyst will -- it's honestly a big six months as they go through it, and we'll have a better sense of kind of -- it will be positive EBITDA for sure, we'll have better idea of FFO as the year progresses. But just to be clear, it's not in our number as of what we've guided to in the $12.40 to $12.65.

然後，Catalyst 將 — — 老實說，這是他們經歷的重要六個月，我們將有更好的了解 — — 它肯定會是正的 EBITDA，隨著時間的推移，我們將對 FFO 有更好的了解。但需要明確的是，這不在我們預計的 12.40 美元至 12.65 美元範圍內。

Okay, Good to see the magic.

好的，很高興看到魔術。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Juan Sanabria, BMO Capital Markets.

Juan Sanabria，BMO資本市場。

Hi, great to hear your voice, David, as well. Just a question on the leasing. It looks like about 5% is still month-to-month. I think that's still kind of above where you were pre-COVID in 2019. So just curious on how you think that will evolve over time. And it's just like a second or part B of a question, how has the SNO pipeline changed, if at all, over time? And could you just give us where it is as of year-end, please?

你好，大衛，我也很高興聽到你的聲音。我只想問一下關於租賃的問題。看起來大約 5% 仍然是按月​​計算的。我認為這仍然略高於 2019 年新冠疫情之前的水平。 所以很好奇，您認為隨著時間的推移，這種情況將如何發展。這就像問題的第二個或 B 部分，隨著時間的推移，SNO 管道發生了怎樣的變化（如果有的話）？您能否告訴我們截至年底的情況？

Hey Juan, it's Brian. SNO at the year-end, it was about 250 basis points as we brought occupancy on in the fourth quarter, and you saw that in the numbers. Month-to-month, we'll as we move leases through our leasing process, ultimately, not everything gets signed at the same time. So we put that into that category. Nothing there. We're in the process of renewals in year-end leasing. And so ultimately, we would expect that number to come down throughout the year.

嘿，胡安，我是布萊恩。由於我們在第四季度提高了入住率，因此年底的 SNO 約為 250 個基點，您可以從數字中看到這一點。隨著我們每月完成租賃流程，最終並非所有文件都會同時簽署。因此我們將其歸入該類別。那裡什麼也沒有。我們正在進行年底租賃的續約。因此，我們最終預計這一數字將全年下降。

I just would say we're slightly but I like to be understand why it takes so long. But put that aside, we do get our leases signed up, and we are slightly ahead of where we were last year on our renewals and side, I should say. But we've got commitments on a lot of.

我只是想說我們有點但我想了解為什麼需要這麼長時間。但拋開這一點不談，我們確實簽署了租約，而且我應該說，我們在續約方面比去年略有進步。但我們已經做出了很多承諾。

Sure.

當然。

Vince Tibone, Green Street.

文斯提博內 (Vince Tibone)，綠街。

Hi, good evening. I have a few questions related to the mixed-use projects you mentioned earlier. So what is the expected pro rata spend on the 4 to 5 mixed-use projects to break ground in '25? And also, like what's the common structure? Are you doing this primarily on your own balance sheet or using joint venture partners for the nonretail components? And also, is it mostly residential? Or like what are some of the other nonretail property types in there? Sorry for the multiple questions. But...

嗨，晚上好。我有幾個與您之前提到的混合用途項目相關的問題。那麼，25年將破土動工的4至5個混合用途項目的預期比例支出是多少？還有，它的共同結構是什麼樣的呢？您主要是在自己的資產負債表上進行此項工作，還是利用合資夥伴來處理非零售部分？而且，它主要是住宅區嗎？或其中還有哪些非零售物業類型？抱歉，我問了多個問題。但...

Yeah, I'm sorry I interrupted you. So it will be around $400 million to $500 million. And again, we are -- when I look at the ones that we're expecting to start this year, they're all JVs. And they will run from residential to a couple of hotels to office. And just to give you a sense what's in that category, we expect hotel in Roosevelt Field, a big residential project in Brea, office at Clearfork, and we're expanding a hotel at The Domain in Austin, Texas. Those are all pretty much planned for.

是的，很抱歉打擾了你。所以金額將在4億到5億美元左右。再說一次，當我看到我們預計今年開始的專案時，它們都是合資企業。他們的業務範圍從住宅區到酒店再到辦公室。為了讓您大致了解該類別的具體內容，我們預計在羅斯福球場 (Roosevelt Field) 有酒店，在布雷亞 (Brea) 有大型住宅項目，在 Clearfork 有辦公室，而且我們正在擴建位於德克薩斯州奧斯汀的 The Domain 的一家酒店。這些都已經計劃好了。

I would expect, Vince, to add to that this year. As you know, we've got Northgate under construction. We are going to somewhat accelerate, if we can, anything we're planning in California. I am very nervous about construction costs there given the horrific events in Southern Cal.

我希望文斯今年能在這方面取得進一步的進展。正如您所知，我們正在建造北門。如果可以的話，我們將在一定程度上加快在加州制定的任何計劃。鑑於南加州發生的可怕事件，我對那裡的建造成本感到非常擔心。

So we're looking at a couple of projects there that we might push before what's going on there. But I would expect us to add more to the pipeline, but those are kind of the ones that were pretty much until you got a shovel on the ground, it ain't over, but those are pretty much baked in the cake. And in this case, they all happen to be JVs, but that could change.

因此，我們正在研究幾個我們可能會在那裡發生的事情之前推動的項目。但我希望我們能夠在管道中增加更多內容，但這些內容基本上是在你用鏟子鏟到地上之前就已經存在了，它還沒有結束，但這些內容基本上是板上釘釘的。在這種情況下，它們恰好都是合資企業，但這種情況可能會改變。

No, that, that's really helpful. I get one more clarification. When you say joint ventures, like, is Simon typically like a 10% or 20%, partner in the non-retail portion, or are you an 80% owner of the non-retail? Just trying to get a sense of appetite for non-retail.

不，那，那真的很有幫助。我還需要澄清一點。當您說到合資企業時，西蒙通常是非零售部分 10％ 或 20％ 的合作夥伴，還是您是非零售部分 80％ 的所有者？只是想了解對非零售業的興趣。

Yeah. No, no, no, Vince, they're usually 50-50.

是的。不，不，不，文斯，通常情況下，它們的比例是 50-50。

Great. Thank you.

偉大的。謝謝。

Okay, no problem.

好的，沒問題。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Mike Mueller, JPMorgan.

摩根大通的麥克·穆勒。

Yeah, hi,I know you can't talk about the Kering pricing, but what's your sense as to how pricing on a comparable quality US asset would compare today? Do you think it'd be similar or stronger or weaker?

是的，嗨，我知道您不能談論開雲集團的定價，但您認為今天同等品質的美國資產的定價如何？您認為它會類似、更強還是更弱？

So. I missed the question. Can you say it one more -- I didn't understand it. Can you rephrase it?

所以。我錯過了這個問題。你能再說一次嗎——我沒明白。能重新表達一下嗎？

So, yeah, I was saying on the Italy purchase, we know you can't talk about the cap rate and the economics. But just curious, as a hypothetical, if you have something comparable quality in the US, how would you imagine the pricing would compare to what you were in for in Italy. Do you think it would be stronger, higher cap rate, lower cap rate, something similar? Just curious on thoughts there.

是的，我說過，關於義大利的購買，我們知道不能談資本化率和經濟性。但只是好奇，假設一下，如果你在美國有類似品質的東西，你認為它的價格與義大利的價格相比會如何。您認為它會更強、更高的資本化率、更低的資本化率，還是類似的？只是好奇那裡的想法。

It's a good question, and I'm trying to think if I can answer it. I'll try to be artful. I would say let me do a macro make a macro statement about Italy. Usually, macro or the even though properties are powerful and comparable, they'll tend to have higher cap rates than they would to the US. And obviously, that calculus is important as to how we think about this. How's that?

這是一個好問題，我正在思考我是否可以回答它。我會盡力表現得更巧妙。我想說，讓我對義大利做一個宏觀的陳述。通常情況下，宏觀或儘管資產強大且具有可比性，但它們的資本化率往往會高於美國。顯然，這種微積分對於我們如何思考這個問題很重要。怎麼樣？

That was good. I think you pointed in the direction, there you go.

那很好。我認為你已經指明了方向，就這樣。

Got it. Okay.

知道了。好的。

Okay, I appreciate it. Thank you.

好的，我很感激。謝謝。

Caitlin Burrows, Goldman Sachs.

高盛的凱特琳·伯羅斯 (Caitlin Burrows)。

Hi everyone. Maybe just another question on kind of acquisitions or capital allocation generally, but it sounds like you were targeting the Kering acquisition for a while, and I imagine there are many other deals that you've assessed over the past couple of years. So I was wondering if you could talk about the rest of the acquisition properties that might be out there that could be attractive to you and how you're balancing perhaps buying those versus your stock versus more redevelopment versus increasing the dividend, realizing that you're kind of doing a little bit of all of that.

大家好。也許這只是關於收購或資本配置的另一個問題，但聽起來您有一段時間一直在瞄準開雲集團的收購，我想過去幾年您也評估了許多其他交易。所以我想知道您是否可以談談其他可能對您有吸引力的收購物業，以及您如何在購買這些物業、股票、更多重建或增加股息之間取得平衡，您意識到您正在做所有這些事情。

Yeah. Listen, I would say, Caitlin, that we're not there's no big, big deal that is on the drawing board. So we're still interested in a few high-quality transactions. We're working on them. There's no guarantee. But I think since there's no big, big deal, we're going to do it all. And that's kind of my philosophy right now.

是的。聽著，我想說，凱特琳，我們不是在計畫什麼大事。所以我們仍然對一些高品質的交易感興趣。我們正在努力解決這些問題。沒有保證。但我認為既然沒有什麼大不了的事，我們就會全力以赴。這就是我現在的哲學。

So we may if there were a big deal to do you can define big deal, but several billion dollars, billions of dollars, let's say, then we might have to readjust our thinking. But I think we're going to the mindset right now is we can do it all. Remember, we've delevered. And so we're still working on a couple high-quality transactions, but they're not like we're not going to tip the scales from a leverage or financial consequence or capacity point of view.

因此，如果有一件大事要做，你可以將其定義為大事，但如果是幾十億美元、數十億美元的話，我們可能必須重新調整我們的思維。但我認為我們現在的心態是我們可以做到一切。請記住，我們已經去槓桿了。因此，我們仍在努力進行一些高品質的交易，但從槓桿率、財務後果或能力的角度來看，它們並非不會產生決定性的影響。

And as you know, development and redevelopment is a 3-year you build a house you buy a house, that's one thing. If you build it, you got 3 years to stroke the check every year, so or every month, unless you have a really nice contractor.

如你所知，開發和再開發需要 3 年時間，建造一棟房子，然後買一棟房子，這是一回事。如果你建造它，那麼你就有三年的時間來每年或每月進行檢查，除非你有一個非常好的承包商。

So honestly, I think we're going to do it all. Redevelop -- we don't mind buying our stock back. Obviously, subject to market conditions, we have the capacity to do so. And then I think redevelopment and development, we announced Nashville. We're really excited about that land. It's in the growth corridor. It's on an interstate, great ingress, egress, visibility, terrific long term, 100-acre site.

所以說實話，我認為我們會盡一切努力。重新開發—我們不介意回購我們的庫存。顯然，根據市場情況，我們有能力這樣做。然後我認為重新開發和發展，我們宣布了納什維爾。我們對那片土地感到非常興奮。它處於增長走廊。它位於州際公路上，入口、出口都極佳，視野開闊，長期來看非常好，佔地 100 英畝。

So we got stuff going on in Asia on development. Not being really on new development in Europe. So just maybe a couple of things here or there. But we're also looking at expanding some of our better assets like a Woodbury or a Toronto Premium Outlet or a Desert Hills, et cetera. So that stuff is high priority. So right now obviously, things change. But right now, we're planning to keep operating the same way we're operating, a little bit of everything.

因此我們在亞洲開展了開發工作。並沒有真正關注歐洲的新發展。所以也許這裡或那裡有幾件事。但我們也考慮擴大一些優質資產，如伍德伯里、多倫多名牌折扣購物中心、沙漠山購物中心等等。因此這些事情是高度優先的。所以現在顯然情況已經改變了。但現在，我們計劃繼續以同樣的運作方式運營，所有業務都會做一點。

Sounds like a lot of opportunity. Great, thanks.

聽起來有很多機會。太好了，謝謝。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Haendel St. Juste, Mizuho.

亨德爾聖朱斯特（Haendel St. Juste）、瑞穗。

Hey there, good evening. Thanks for taking my question. Good to hear you, David. My question, I guess, I wanted to go back a bit more to your plan on investing a bit more on your B assets here. I guess I'm curious how you're able to generate the 12% returns versus, I think, the 8% to 9% we've seen in more of your A projects here in the last couple of years. Is it the lower rent basis? Are you seeing, I guess, stronger -- any sense of stronger demand for space in those -- in any of those B malls? And is 12% more of an anomaly or more the norm for these B mall investments you're making?

嘿，晚上好。感謝您回答我的問題。很高興聽到你的消息，大衛。我的問題是，我想再回顧一下你關於在 B 類資產上增加投資的計劃。我很好奇您是如何實現 12% 的回報率的，而在過去幾年裡，您的 A 級專案中回報率一般為 8% 到 9%。這是較低的租金基礎嗎？我想，您是否看到，在這些 B 類商場中，對空間的需求更加強烈了？對於您所進行的 B 類商場投資來說，12% 是異常現象還是正常現象？

Yeah. I think the simple thing is right now, we have little to no income. But when we always give you a number on return, we're always backing out existing income. But in this case, if you have an empty box or empty space, there's no existing income. And that really drives the kind of the incremental return. That's the biggest element of it.

是的。我認為簡單的事情是，目前我們幾乎沒有收入。但當我們總是給你一個回報數字時，我們總是會放棄現有的收入。但在這種情況下，如果您有一個空盒子或空空間，就沒有現有收入。這確實推動了增量回報。這是其中最重要的因素。

And they're not all the 12% -- I kind of referred to what we see at Smith Haven, but they're not all that way. But in a lot of cases, it's just empty space or an empty box. And it's income basically, there's no offset against it because there's no existing retailer or and then it's just the capital we have to put in to do it.

而且他們並不全是那 12% — — 我有點參考了我們在 Smith Haven 看到的情況，但並非全是那樣。但在很多情況下，它只是空白空間或空盒子。它基本上是收入，沒有抵消，因為沒有現有的零售商，所以它只是我們必須投入的資本。

Got it. I appreciate that. And just thinking about that 12%, is that kind of reflective of the incremental risk return or risk premium perhaps for some of these assets? Just curious how that perhaps would...

知道了。我很感激。想想那 12%，是否反映了其中一些資產的增量風險報酬或風險溢價？只是好奇那也許會怎樣...

I think that's a good point, but I would recharacterize. So let's say there's and again, our B malls are probably some better than A malls. But let's just take a B mall and -- where we think the value very simplistically is an A cap rate, okay? We wouldn't want to invest in that asset at a six return because that would be dilutive to NAV.

我認為這是一個很好的觀點，但我會重新描述。所以，我們可以假設，我們的 B 類商場可能比 A 類商場更好。但是，我們僅以 B 類商場為例——我們認為其價值非常簡單地就是 A 類資本化率，好嗎？我們不想以六倍的報酬率投資該資產，因為這會稀釋資產淨值。

So part of what you're going to see and are seeing as we really look to improve that kind of portfolio is if we can't make NAV-accretive investments, we won't do it. So we're better off, in that case, just managing the cash flow to the best of our abilities. So I understand your point. I kind of recharacterized it not because of risk. It's not really risk adjusted. It's more, what's the value of the asset? And will this add to the value of that asset? Follow what I'm saying?

因此，當我們真正尋求改善此類投資組合時，您將會看到並且正在看到的是，如果我們不能進行能增加資產淨值的投資，我們就不會這麼做。所以在這種情況下，我們最好盡最大努力管理現金流。所以我理解你的意思。我重新對其進行了描述，但這並不是因為風險。它實際上並未經過風險調整。更重要的是，資產的價值是多少？這會增加該資產的價值嗎？明白我的意思了嗎？

Absolutely. And that's partly what I was getting at, so I appreciate that.

絕對地。這正是我要表達的意思，因此我對此表示感謝。

Linda Tsai, Jefferies.

傑富瑞 (Jefferies) 的 Linda Tsai。

Regarding the comment that you buy only really good stuff, after Kering, do you see more opportunities abroad or domestically?

關於您只購買真正好東西的評論，在離開開雲集團之後，您認為國內還是國外有更多機會？

I would say mostly domestic just because it's got to be really unique, which is what we saw the mall, which is rare. And again, as I mentioned earlier, I think I talked to them -- hard to remember, but it was definitely a couple of years pre-COVID. So I just think there's very few jewels like that in Europe that makes sense with what we do in Europe, if you understand what I'm saying. So we're not going to buy a mall in Europe just to have one mall in Europe. So the outlet business, we view it a little differently. So I would say by -- because of that, it's got to be really unique and more domestic. I'd say more domestic.

我想說主要是國內的，因為它必須非常獨特，這就是我們在購物中心看到的，這是很少見的。正如我之前提到的，我想我和他們談過了——雖然記不太清了，但那肯定是在新冠疫情爆發前的幾年。所以我認為，歐洲很少有這樣的珠寶與我們在歐洲的做法有意義，如果你明白我的意思的話。因此，我們不會只為了在歐洲擁有一個購物中心而購買歐洲的購物中心。因此，對於直銷業務，我們的看法略有不同。所以我想說——正因為如此，它必須真正獨特且更具本土特色。我想說的是更國內化。

And then how are you feeling about the consumer right now and -- high versus low end, US versus Europe?

那麼您現在對消費者有何看法──高端消費者與低端消費者、美國消費者與歐洲消費者？

Well, I think they're very cautious in Europe. And the US consumer is still -- I'm still nervous about the lower-end consumer. The better to the upper income, I feel pretty confident about that. A lot of whipsaws going on left and right. So it's very hard to predict. But generally, still concerned about the lower end, pretty bullish on the upper to high-end consumer.

嗯，我認為歐洲人非常謹慎。而美國消費者仍然——我仍然對低端消費者感到緊張。收入越高越好，我對此很有信心。左右兩邊都發生了很多拉鋸戰。所以很難預測。但整體而言，我們仍關注低端市場，對高端消費者相當看好。

Ronald Kamdem, Morgan Stanley

摩根士丹利的 Ronald Kamdem

If we could just go back to sort of the strong performance last year. Wondering if we could dig in a little bit between sort of the outlets and the mall business. Any sort of callout? What drove the performance? Is it traffic? Is it higher ticket prices, so on and so forth? And the second part of the question is really -- are you seeing any impact from the strong dollar on tourist centers?

如果我們能夠回顧去年的強勁表現。想知道我們是否可以在奧特萊斯和購物中心業務之間進行一些深入的探討。有什麼樣的標註嗎？是什麼推動了這項表現？是交通嗎？是票價上漲嗎，等等？問題的第二部分實際上是——您是否看到美元走強對旅遊中心產生了任何影響？

So Ron, it's Brian. There wasn't a big bifurcation kind of between asset classes. I think all 3 platforms performed exceedingly well. You did see the outlet in The Mills, which generally skew a little bit more value-oriented, outperform a little bit into the fourth quarter. It wasn't really kind of an anomaly, just kind of expected performance.

那麼羅恩，我是布萊恩。資產類別之間並沒有出現大幅的分化。我認為這三個平台的表現都非常出色。您確實看到了 The Mills 的門市，該店通常更偏向價值導向，在第四季度的表現略有出色。這其實並不是什麼異常現象，只是一種預期的表現。

And we've not seen any real-time impact yet to the tourist-oriented centers, but we're February 4. So still early in the year. But we would expect to see -- or if we continue to see dollar strength, you can see some impact over the course of the year, certainly in our translations of our foreign earnings.

目前我們還沒有看到對以旅遊為中心的中心產生任何實時影響，但現在是 2 月 4 日。但我們預計——或者如果美元繼續走強，那麼你會在一年內看到一些影響，當然，這肯定會影響到我們的外匯收益。

And I would just say, when we talk about reenergizing on the assets, don't just think malls. Think outlets, think a few of our Mills. So it's a wide portfolio focus, not just when people talk B, they always think malls. But for us, it's across our entire domestic portfolio.

我想說，當我們談論重新激活資產時，不要只想到購物中心。想想出口，想想我們的一些工廠。因此，這是一個廣泛的投資組合重點，而不僅僅是當人們談到 B 時，他們總是想到購物中心。但對我們來說，它涵蓋了我們整個國內投資組合。

This concludes the question-and-answer session. I'd like to turn the floor back to David Simon for any closing comments.

問答環節到此結束。我想將發言權交還給戴維·西蒙，請他發表最後評論。

Okay. Thank you, everybody, and look forward to talking in the future. Thank you.

好的。謝謝大家，期待以後的交流。謝謝。

This concludes the teleconference. You may disconnect your lines at this time. Thank you again for your participation.

本次電話會議到此結束。現在您可以斷開您的線路。再次感謝您的參與。