NACCO Industries Inc (NC) 2024 Q4 法說會逐字稿

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the NACCO Industries 2024 fourth quarter and full year earnings conference call. (Operator Instructions)

女士們、先生們，早上好，歡迎參加 NACCO Industries 2024 年第四季和全年收益電話會議。（操作員指示）

This call is being recorded on Thursday, March 6, 2025. I would now like to turn the conference over to Christina Kmetko, Investor Relations, please go ahead.

本次通話於 2025 年 3 月 6 日星期四錄製。現在我想將會議交給投資者關係部的 Christina Kmetko，請繼續。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Good morning everyone and welcome to our 2024 fourth quarter and full year earnings call and webcast. Thank you for joining us this morning. I'm Christina Kmetko, and I'm responsible for investor relations at NACCO. Joining me today are J.C. Butler, President and Chief Executive Officer, and Elizabeth Loveman, Senior Vice President and controller.

大家早安，歡迎參加我們 2024 年第四季和全年收益電話會議和網路廣播。感謝您今天上午加入我們。我是 Christina Kmetko，負責 NACCO 的投資人關係。今天與我一起的還有總裁兼執行長 J.C. Butler 和高級副總裁兼財務主管 Elizabeth Loveman。

Yesterday we published our 2024 fourth quarter and full year results and filed our 10k. This information is available on our website. Our remarks that follow, including answers to your questions, contain forward-looking statements. These statements are subject to several risks and uncertainties that could cause actual results to differ materially from those expressed in the forward-looking statements made here today. These risks include among others matters that we've described in our earnings release 10K and other SEC filings.

昨天，我們公佈了 2024 年第四季和全年業績，並提交了 10k。這些資訊可在我們的網站上找到。我們接下來的評論（包括對您的問題的回答）包含前瞻性陳述。這些聲明受多種風險和不確定性的影響，可能導致實際結果與今天在此做出的前瞻性聲明中表達的結果有重大差異。這些風險包括我們在收益報告 10K 和其他 SEC 文件中所述的事項。

We may not update these forward-looking statements until our next quarterly earnings conference call. We'll also be discussing non-GAAP information that we believe is useful in evaluating the company's operating performance. Reconciliations for these non-GAAP measures can be found in our earnings release and on our website. With the formalities out of the way, I'll turn the call over to J.C. for some opening remarks. J.C.

我們可能不會在下一次季度財報電話會議之前更新這些前瞻性聲明。我們也將討論我們認為有助於評估公司經營績效的非公認會計準則資訊。這些非公認會計準則指標的對帳可以在我們的收益報告和網站上找到。禮節結束後，我將把電話交給 J.C. 來致一些開場白。J.C.

Thank you, Christy, and good morning, everyone. We delivered solid fourth quarter results, which represented a strong finish to a successful year. For those who follow us closely, you will recall that last year, I noted that all the unfavorable comparisons we experienced throughout what was a challenging 2023 should turn favorable in 2024. Well, I'm pleased to say that is exactly what happened. Our company delivered robust 2024 fourth quarter net income of $7.6 million and full year net income of $33.7 million.

謝謝你，克里斯蒂，大家早安。我們取得了穩健的第四季業績，為成功的一年畫下了圓滿的句點。對於那些密切關注我們的人來說，你們會記得，去年我曾指出，我們在充滿挑戰的 2023 年所經歷的所有不利的比較在 2024 年都應該變得有利。嗯，我很高興地說事實確實如此。我們公司 2024 年第四季淨收入強勁，達到 760 萬美元，全年淨收入達 3,370 萬美元。

Fourth quarter adjusted EBITDA of $9 million increased almost 27% over fourth quarter of 2023, and full year adjusted EBITDA $59.4 million increased 116% year-over-year. Before I provide more color on the air, I want to recognize our outstanding employees. I'm extremely proud of the way these talented, dedicated, and motivated individuals continue to deliver success. These are the folks who produced our significantly improved 2024 results. They continue to find new and innovative ways to support our customers while working to implement our grow and diversify strategies.

第四季調整後的 EBITDA 為 900 萬美元，比 2023 年第四季成長近 27%，全年調整後的 EBITDA 為 5,940 萬美元，較去年同期成長 116%。在電視上提供更多新聞之前，我想先表揚我們傑出的員工。我對這些才華橫溢、敬業奉獻、積極進取的個人不斷取得成功的方式感到非常自豪。正是這些人，才使得我們在 2024 年的表現取得了顯著的進步。他們在努力實施我們的成長和多樣化策略的同時，不斷尋找新的創新方法來支持我們的客戶。

I want to thank each of them for the hard work and many contributions that they put forth to strengthen us today and to secure new opportunities for our future. I am honored each and every day to work alongside such an amazing team. Our strong 2024 performance was led by our coal mining segment where segment adjusted EBITDA more than quadrupled from 2023. North American mining delivered a 35% increase in segment adjusted EBITDA, and minerals management generated a 21% increase in segment adjusted EBITDA.

我要感謝他們每個人的辛勤工作和眾多貢獻，他們使我們今天更加強大，並為我們的未來帶來了新的機會。我很榮幸每天都能與如此出色的團隊一起工作。我們 2024 年的強勁業績得益於煤炭開採部門，該部門調整後的 EBITDA 較 2023 年增長了四倍多。北美採礦業分部調整後 EBITDA 成長了 35%，礦產管理分部調整後 EBITDA 成長了 21%。

Much of the coal mining segment's improvement occurred at Mississippi Lignite Mining Company. While this mine dealt with its customers' plant running with only one boiler for more than half the year, business interruption insurance income of $13.6 million received in the third quarter helped offset the reduction in customer demand. Despite lower revenues at Mississippi Lignite Mining Company due to reduced customer demand, the Redhills mine operated more efficiently in 2024 than a year ago when it was finalizing the move to a new mine area and contending with difficult mining conditions. Those challenges are now behind us.

煤炭開採領域的大部分改進發生在密西西比褐煤礦業公司。雖然礦場的客戶工廠在一年中有超過半年的時間只使用一台鍋爐運行，但第三季度收到的 1,360 萬美元的業務中斷保險收入幫助抵消了客戶需求的減少。儘管由於客戶需求減少導緻密西西比褐煤礦業公司的收入下降，但雷德希爾斯礦在 2024 年的營運效率比一年前更高，當時該公司正在最終確定遷移到新礦區並應對艱難的採礦條件。這些挑戰現在都已成為過去。

Earnings at our unconsolidated coal mining operations also improved with an increase in earnings at both Coteau and Falkirk. Specifically, Falkirk experienced increased customer demand at a higher per ton management fee beginning in June 2024 when the temporary price concessions associated with Rainbow Energy's acquisition of Cold Creek Station ended. We're encouraged that evolving policy frameworks seem to be creating a more favorable regulatory environment for the fossil fuel industry moving forward, and demand for dependable electricity is projected to outpace supply.

我們的非合併煤礦開採業務的收益也有所改善，其中科托和福爾柯克的收益均有所增加。具體而言，自 2024 年 6 月 Rainbow Energy 收購與 Cold Creek Station 相關的臨時價格優惠結束後，福爾柯克的客戶需求開始增加，每噸管理費也隨之增加。我們感到鼓舞的是，不斷發展的政策框架似乎正在為化石燃料產業的發展創造更有利的監管環境，預計可靠電力的需求將超過供應。

These developments are expected to further support coal as a central part of the energy mix in the United States for the foreseeable future. Shifting to North American mining, this segment continues to benefit from progress on operational and strategic projects that have improved profitability and will continue to do so. In addition to the segment adjusted EBITDA improvement, full year operating profit of $5.8 million was up 72% compared with 2023.

預計這些發展將在可預見的未來進一步支持煤炭成為美國能源結構的核心部分。轉向北美採礦業，該部門繼續受益於營運和戰略項目的進展，這些項目的盈利能力有所提高，並將繼續保持這種勢頭。除了分部調整後的 EBITDA 改善外，全年營業利潤 580 萬美元，較 2023 年成長 72%。

However, North American mining experienced lower profitability in the second half of 2024 compared with the first half. This decline was due in part to an overall reduction in demand partly attributable to the ongoing effects of 3 hurricanes in Florida in the second half of the year. We expect North American mining to generate increasing levels of operating profit and even adopt over time as benefits from new and extended contracts add to the profitability of existing contracts.

不過，2024年下半年北美採礦業的獲利能力與上半年相比有所下降。下降的部分原因是由於下半年佛羅裡達州 3 次颶風的持續影響導致整體需求減少。我們預計，隨著新合約和延期合約帶來的好處增加現有合約的獲利能力，北美採礦業將產生越來越高的營業利潤，甚至隨著時間的推移而採用。

During 2024, North American Mining executed two new contracts and amended an existing contract, all of which are expected to deliver NPV of after-tax cash flows of approximately $20 million over contract terms which range from 6 years to 20 years. Wrapping up my North American mining comments, let me mention Sawtooth mining, which is the exclusive contract mining miner for Lithium America's Thacker Pass lithium project in northern Nevada. Lithium Americas continues to make progress on the Thacker Pass project, and we continue to support the project by assisting with certain construction services as they ramp up work to build the lithium processing plant.

2024 年，北美礦業公司簽署了兩份新合約並修改了一份現有合同，預計所有合約將在 6 年至 20 年的合約期限內產生約 2000 萬美元的稅後現金流淨現值。總結我對北美礦業的評論，我想提一下 Sawtooth 礦業，它是 Lithium America 位於內華達州北部的 Thacker Pass 鋰項目的獨家合約採礦商。Lithium Americas 在 Thacker Pass 專案上繼續取得進展，我們將繼續透過協助提供某些建設服務來支援該項目，因為他們正在加緊建造鋰加工廠。

In the fourth quarter of 2024, we and Lithium Americas agreed to expand the scope of our work to include transportation of clay tailings once lithium production commences. This expansion of work comes with an expected increase in our income from this long-term project. Phase one production is estimated to begin in late 2027. At minerals management, the 2024 adjusted EBITDA dot improvement was primarily due to a $4.5 million gain on the sale of assets. Excluding the gain, Mineral Minerals Management's 2024 earnings were comparable to 2023.

2024 年第四季度，我們和 Lithium Americas 同意擴大工作範圍，包括在鋰生產開始後運輸黏土尾礦。此次工作擴展預計將使我們從這個長期項目獲得的收入增加。第一階段的生產預計將於 2027 年底開始。在礦產管理方面，2024 年調整後的 EBITDA 點數改善主要歸因於資產出售收益 450 萬美元。不計該收益，Mineral Minerals Management 2024 年的收益與 2023 年相當。

We are very pleased with the work done by the Catapult Mineral Partners team, which manages this segment. They have greatly expanded our portfolio of mineral interests so that we are now more diversified in terms of our oil and gas mix. We work with a wider range of operators. We have a greater geographic footprint, and we own interest in various stages of mineral development ranging from producing wells to undeveloped mineral interests.

我們對負責管理這一部門的 Catapult Mineral Partners 團隊所做的工作感到非常滿意。他們大大擴展了我們的礦產權益組合，使我們的石油和天然氣結構更加多樣化。我們與更廣泛的運營商合作。我們的地理覆蓋範圍更廣，並且擁有礦產開發各階段的權益，從生產井到未開發礦產權益。

This expansion continued in the fourth quarter of 2024 when minerals Management invested an additional $15.7 million in a company that holds non-operated working interests in oil and natural gas assets in the Kansas and Oklahoma portions of the Hugoton Basin. This investment is expected to be accretive to future earnings. While we continue to budget up to $20 million annually to expand our portfolio and provide long-term stable cash flow generation, our business model allows flexibility regarding the cadence and type of investment based on available opportunities that we believe will result in significant long-term value and increasing profitability.

這項擴張在 2024 年第四季繼續進行，當時礦產管理公司向一家公司額外投資了 1,570 萬美元，該公司持有休格頓盆地堪薩斯州和俄克拉荷馬州部分的石油和天然氣資產的非經營性工作權益。預計這項投資將增加未來的收益。雖然我們每年繼續預算高達 2000 萬美元來擴大我們的投資組合併提供長期穩定的現金流，但我們的業務模式允許根據現有機會靈活地安排投資節奏和類型，我們相信這將帶來顯著的長期價值並提高盈利能力。

We believe that this expansion and diversification program has us well positioned to generate increasing levels of operating profit and EBITDA well into the future. Moving the mitigation resources of North America, I'm pleased to note that the business contributed positively to operating profit and EBITDA during the 2024, fourth quarter and is expected to achieve full year operating profit in 2025 based on current expectations for the business.

我們相信，這項擴張和多元化計劃使我們在未來能夠創造更高的營業利潤和 EBITDA。轉移北美的緩解資源，我很高興地註意到，該業務在 2024 年第四季度對營業利潤和 EBITDA 做出了積極貢獻，並且根據目前對該業務的預期，預計 2025 年將實現全年營業利潤。

Our expectations were bolstered in January when the team secured a restoration project in Kentucky, which is expected to be accretive to earnings beginning in 2026. We believe that Mitigation resources is on track to increase profitability over time. Overall, I'm excited about our business trajectory, I'm optimistic about the future and I'm pleased with the way all of these businesses continue to advance their strategies. I believe 2025 is a pivotal year for our company as our legacy businesses stabilize and our new businesses gain traction.

今年 1 月，該團隊在肯塔基州獲得了一個修復項目，預計該項目將從 2026 年開始增加收益，這增強了我們的預期。我們相信，隨著時間的推移，緩解資源的獲利能力將會提高。總的來說，我對我們的業務發展軌跡感到興奮，我對未來充滿樂觀，並且我對所有這些企業繼續推進其策略的方式感到滿意。我相信 2025 年對我們公司來說是一個關鍵的一年，因為我們的傳統業務將趨於穩定，而新業務將獲得發展動力。

We are proud of what we have accomplished thus far and have confidence in our journey. We love our story and intend to increase our level of shareholder engagement in the coming year. Look for more information about that in the months to come. With that, I'll turn the call back over to Christy to cover our quarterly results at Outlook.

我們為迄今為止所取得的成就感到自豪，並對我們的未來充滿信心。我們熱愛我們的故事，並打算在未來一年提高股東參與度。在接下來的幾個月中尋找更多有關此內容的資訊。說完這些，我將把電話轉回給克里斯蒂，讓她介紹一下 Outlook 的季度業績。

Thank you, J.C.

謝謝你，J.C.

I'll start with some high-level comments about our consolidated fourth quarter financial results that helps test the results of our individual segments and our 2025 outlook. We reported consolidated operating profit of $3.9 million in net income of $7.6 million or $1.02 per share. Last year we reported fourth quarter operating loss of $67.4 million and a net loss of $44 million or a loss of $5.88 per share. Adjusted EBITDA increased to $9 million from $7.1 million in 2023.

我將首先對我們的第四季度合併財務業績發表一些高層評論，這有助於測試我們各部門的業績和 2025 年的展望。我們報告的綜合營業利潤為 390 萬美元，淨收入為 760 萬美元，即每股 1.02 美元。去年我們報告第四季營業虧損 6,740 萬美元，淨虧損 4,400 萬美元，即每股虧損 5.88 美元。調整後的 EBITDA 從 2023 年的 710 萬美元增至 900 萬美元。

The 2023 financial results included a $65.9 million pre-tax asset impairment charge. I'd note that $60.8 million of the impairment was in the 2023 coal mining segment results and $5.1 million was in mineral management results. Our coal mining segment reported operating profit of $2 million and generated segment adjusted EBITDA of $4.2 million in the 2024 fourth quarter. This compares to an operating loss of $62.3 million and segment adjusted EBITDA of $3.2 million in 2023. Segment adjusted EBITDA increased 32.6%, primarily due to higher earnings at the unconsolidated operations as a result of increased pricing at Falkirk and improved earnings at Coteau, as well as increased customer requirements at both mines.

2023 年財務表現包括 6,590 萬美元的稅前資產減損費用。我注意到，其中 6,080 萬美元的減損來自 2023 年煤炭開採部門的業績，510 萬美元來自礦產管理績效。我們的煤炭開採部門報告稱，2024 年第四季的營業利潤為 200 萬美元，部門調整後 EBITDA 為 420 萬美元。相較之下，2023 年的營業虧損為 6,230 萬美元，分部調整後 EBITDA 為 320 萬美元。分部調整後 EBITDA 成長 32.6%，主要由於 Falkirk 礦場定價上漲、Coteau 礦收益改善，以及兩座礦場客戶需求增加，導致非合併業務收益增加。

Lower operating expenses also contributed to the higher coal mining results. North American Mining reported a fourth quarter of 2024 operating profit of $800,000 compared with the $600,000 operating loss in the prior year. The improvements in operating results in segment adjusted EBITDA were mainly due to reduced operating expenses, particularly outside services. The prior year results also included a $500,000 loss on sale of the dragline sold in connection with the extension of a customer contract.

較低的營運費用也促進了煤炭開採業績的提高。北美礦業公司報告稱，2024 年第四季營業利潤為 80 萬美元，去年同期營業虧損為 60 萬美元。分部調整後 EBITDA 經營績效的改善主要得益於經營費用的減少，尤其是外部服務的減少。上一年的業績還包括因延長客戶合約而出售的拖纜造成的 50 萬美元損失。

Minerals Management's fourth quarter of 2024 operating profit improved to $7.2 million up from $2.5 million in 2023, primarily because the prior year quarter included a $5.1 million dollar impairment charge. Revenues in segment adjusted EBITDA, which excludes the 2023 impairment charge, were generally comparable to the prior year. Looking forward, our businesses provide critical inputs for electricity generation, construction and development, and the production of industrial minerals and chemicals.

礦產管理公司 2024 年第四季的營業利潤從 2023 年的 250 萬美元增至 720 萬美元，這主要是因為去年同期包含 510 萬美元的減損費用。分部調整後的 EBITDA 收入（不包括 2023 年減損費用）與前一年基本相當。展望未來，我們的業務為發電、建設和開發以及工業礦物和化學品的生產提供關鍵投入。

Increasing demand for electricity, onshoring, and current federal policies are creating favorable macroeconomic trends within these industries. As J.C. mentioned, we are confident in our trajectory and business prospects as we enter 2025 and prepare for longer term growth opportunities. Specifically, in 2025, we expect to generate a modest year-over-year increase in consolidated operating profit. In 2025, the coal mining segment anticipates solid customer demand, with deliveries expected to increase modestly from 2024.

電力需求、在岸生產和當前聯邦政策的不斷增長正在為這些行業創造有利的宏觀經濟趨勢。正如 J.C. 所提到的，我們對進入 2025 年的發展軌跡和業務前景充滿信心，並為長期成長機會做好準備。具體來說，我們預計 2025 年合併營業利潤將比去年同期小幅成長。2025 年，煤炭開採產業預計客戶需求將保持強勁，交付量預計將比 2024 年略有增加。

In addition, the coal mining segment expects to benefit from the absence of temporary price concessions at Falkirk. At our Mississippi Lignite Mining Company, they continued to recover from inefficiencies experienced while the customer's Redhill Power Plant operated on one of two generation units for more than half of 2024. With the power plant now anticipated to operate at a level consistent with historical averages, coal deliveries are expected to return to more normal levels, resulting in modestly improved cost efficiencies.

此外，煤炭開採部門預計將受益於法爾科克沒有臨時價格優惠。在我們的密西西比褐煤礦業公司，他們繼續從效率低下中恢復過來，而客戶的雷德希爾發電廠在 2024 年超過一半的時間裡只依靠兩台發電機組之一運作。目前預計發電廠的運作水平與歷史平均水平一致，煤炭交付量預計將恢復到更正常的水平，從而略微提高成本效率。

However, an anticipated reduction in the 2025 contractually determined per ton sales price compared with '24 is expected to offset these improvements, leading to lower results at Mississippi Lignite Mining Company. This combined with an anticipated increase in operating expenses in the coal segment. Overall, it's expected to result in a modest year over year decrease in coal mining segment operating profit. North American mining is expected to deliver improved results in 2025, predominantly in the second half of the year based on expectations for comparable year over year customer demand.

然而，預計 2025 年合約確定的每噸銷售價格與 24 年相比有所下降，這將抵消這些改善，導緻密西西比褐煤礦業公司的業績下降。這與煤炭部門營運費用的預期增加有關。總體而言，預計煤炭開採部門的營業利潤將比去年小幅下降。根據對同比客戶需求的預期，北美採礦業預計將在 2025 年取得更好的業績，主要是在下半年。

Minerals management's high quality diversified portfolio of oil and gas mineral interests provides a strong foundation of well positioned assets that are expected to continue to deliver solid financial results. Minerals Management's recent investment in the Hugoton Basin is expected to be accretive to earnings in 2025. Overall, Mineral Management's 2025 operating profit is anticipated to be comparable to '24. Lower first half earnings are expected to be offset by an improvement in the second half, given forecasted trends in oil and natural gas prices and projected volumes.

礦產管理公司的高品質多元化石油和天然氣礦產權益組合提供了良好的資產基礎，預計將繼續帶來穩健的財務表現。礦產管理公司最近對休戈頓盆地的投資預計將在 2025 年增加收益。總體而言，預計礦產管理公司 2025 年的營業利潤將與 2024 年相當。根據石油和天然氣價格趨勢和產量的預測，預計上半年獲利的下降將被下半年獲利的改善所抵消。

We started the process to terminate our defined benefit pension plan in 2024 and expect that process to be completed in 2025. This will eliminate future volatility from changes in our pension obligation. Once complete, obligations under the terminated plan will be transferred to a third party insurance provider. Although the plan is currently overfunded, a significant non-cash settlement charge is anticipated upon termination.

我們於 2024 年開始終止固定收益退休金計畫的流程，預計流程將於 2025 年完成。這將消除我們退休金義務變化帶來的未來波動。一旦完成，終止計劃下的義務將轉移給第三方保險提供者。儘管該計劃目前資金過剩，但終止時預計會產生大量非現金結算費用。

Excluding that anticipated charge, net income is expected to decrease moderately compared with 2024. Before I turn the call over to questions, let me close with some information about our liquidity and cash flow. We ended the year with consolidated cash of approximately $73 million and debt of $99.5 million. Availability under our revolver was approximately $99 million.

不計入該預期費用，預計淨收入將與 2024 年相比略有下降。在我將電話轉入提問之前，請允許我先介紹一些關於我們的流動性和現金流的資訊。截至本財年末，我們的綜合現金餘額約為 7,300 萬美元，債務為 9,950 萬美元。我們的循環信貸可用金額約為 9,900 萬美元。

In 2024, we paid $6.6 million in dividends, and we purchased approximately 317,000 shares of our Class A common stock at prevailing market prices for an aggregate purchase price of $9.9 million. As of December 31, 2024, we had $8.5 million remaining under our $20 million share repurchase program that expires at the end of this year 2025. We expect significant annual cash flow generation in 2025 in future years based on our current business plan. We will now turn to any questions you may have.

2024 年，我們支付了 660 萬美元的股息，並以現行市場價格購買了約 317,000 股 A 類普通股，總購買價為 990 萬美元。截至 2024 年 12 月 31 日，我們的 2,000 萬美元股票回購計畫剩餘 850 萬美元，該計畫將於 2025 年底到期。根據我們目前的業務計劃，我們預計未來幾年 2025 年將產生可觀的年度現金流。我們現在將回答您可能提出的任何問題。

Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. (Operator Instructions)

謝謝各位，女士們、先生們。（操作員指示）

Your first question comes from Doug Weiss with DSW Investments. Your line is now open.

您的第一個問題來自 DSW Investments 的 Doug Weiss。您的線路現已開通。

Well my guess is that was an accident. Doug's going to dial back in.

嗯，我猜那是一場意外。道格將重新撥號。

Okay. Give him a minute.

好的。給他一分鐘。

While we wait, I would like to provide a few reminders. Replay of our call will be available online later this morning. We'll also post a transcript on the investor relations website when it becomes available. If you have any questions, please reach out to me. You can reach me at the phone number on the press release.

在我們等待的同時，我想提供一些提醒。我們的通話重播將於今天上午晚些時候在網上提供。當報告可用時，我們也會在投資者關係網站上發布一份報告。如果您有任何疑問，請與我聯絡。您可以撥打新聞稿上的電話號碼與我聯絡。

Oh hi, yeah, sorry about that. My phone dropped just as the Q&A started.

哦，嗨，是的，很抱歉。問答環節剛開始，我的手機就掉下來了。

So, on the coal business. I think the results are a little better than they looked at first if I'm right, because you had a $6 million inventory write down in that division, is that accurate?

關於煤炭業務。如果我沒記錯的話，我認為結果比最初看起來要好一些，因為該部門的庫存減記了 600 萬美元，對嗎？

We have taken inventory right now so that's correct.

我們現在已經盤點了庫存，所以這是正確的。

I mean, yeah, so I think a lot of companies would add that back to EBITDA, and if I do that, the division did about $10 million of EBITDA that does. Would you argue that's not a reasonable adjustment, or I guess, in other words, is that a reasonable, if I add that back and start with the $10 million, is that a reasonable baseline for next year on a kind of run rate basis?

我的意思是，是的，所以我認為很多公司會將其加回到 EBITDA 中，如果我這樣做的話，該部門的 EBITDA 約為 1000 萬美元。您是否認為這不是一個合理的調整，或者換句話說，這是否合理，如果我將其加回去並從 1000 萬美元開始，這是否是明年基於某種運行率的合理基準？

I mean, we gave some information on the whole segment which specifically is our Redhill's mine, that we think the sales price is going to be lower next year compared to this year and it's really contractually determined sales price. So, I don't know, I look at what we said about Mississippi Lignite Mining Company and Outlook.

我的意思是，我們提供了一些有關整個部分的信息，特別是我們的 Redhill 礦，我們認為明年的銷售價格將比今年低，而且這實際上是合約確定的銷售價格。所以，我不知道，我會看看我們對密西西比褐煤礦業公司和展望的看法。

Right. Okay.

正確的。好的。

We haven't added it back, Doug, because it has been recurring over the past year. Each quarter we have taken a write down, so that is why we have included it within our numbers as opposed to excluding it.

道格，我們沒有將它添加回去，因為它在過去的一年裡一直反覆出現。每個季度我們都進行了減記，因此我們將其納入我們的數字中而不是排除在外。

Right, it's not like, it's called that as an individual number. I mean, everybody can do their own analysis if they want to add that back.

對，它不像這樣，它被稱為個人號碼。我的意思是，如果每個人都想將其添加回去，他們都可以進行自己的分析。

Right. Okay. And then I guess on the, on the, MLMC volumes, they, despite having a second boiler come back online they're still a little bit light but I guess your guidance suggests you see that strengthening next year.

正確的。好的。然後我想就 MLMC 產量而言，儘管第二台鍋爐重新上線，產量仍然有點少，但我想您的指導表明您會看到明年產量會增強。

Well, the plant was down, one boiler was down for half the year. They also had an outage, later in the year, anytime there's a significant outage, which this was, they get inside and decide what do they, what else might they need to do that they could schedule at the same time, and I think some of that took a little longer than we had expected. But I wouldn't read anything significant into the volumes from last year, compared to going forward.

嗯，工廠停工了，一台鍋爐停工了半年。他們也遇到過一次停電，在今年晚些時候，每當發生重大停電時，他們就會進入內部並決定他們該做什麼，他們可能還需要做什麼，以便可以同時安排，我認為其中一些花費的時間比我們預期的要長一些。但與未來相比，我不會從去年的銷售中看出任何重要的東西。

Okay. I guess I'm still struggling to kind of and maybe I just have to wait for next quarter, but to get a handle on what normal MLMC. Gross profit looks like. I guess last quarter at least kind of break even and a gross profit basis this quarter. It was a loss but then that includes that inventory right down. So, I don't know if there's any more you could say about and then you have stronger volume coming in, but then you have a price reduction so.

好的。我想我仍然在努力，也許我只需要等到下個季度，就可以了解正常的 MLMC。毛利看起來像。我猜想上個季度至少能達到收支平衡，而本季則能達到毛利。這是一筆損失，但其中包括了庫存。所以，我不知道您是否還能透露更多，然後您的銷售量就增加了，但價格卻降低了。

Let's if you don't mind, we'll just do the pieces of that, right? Of course, you got volume, when we know that there's going to be any kind of, significant outage that's going to affect volume, I think we generally, although not always try to signal that so that investors know what to expect. So that's the volume side. I mean, I will say in general. As we all know, there's increasing demand for electricity across the country, and it'll vary plant by plant, power plant by power plant. We think generally that's going to be helpful with respect to electron sales, which is directly related to all deliveries at all of our plants, or in all of our minds with respect to all of our utility customers.

如果您不介意的話，我們就做這些部分，對嗎？當然，當我們知道將會發生任何會影響交易量的重大中斷時，我認為我們通常會（儘管並不總是）嘗試發出信號，以便讓投資者知道會發生什麼。這就是音量方面。我的意思是，我會一般性地說。眾所周知，全國各地對電力的需求不斷增加，各電廠的需求各不相同。我們總體上認為這對電子產品銷售有幫助，因為這與我們所有工廠的所有交付直接相關，或者在我們所有人的心目中與我們所有的公用事業客戶直接相關。

So then you go to price right at Redhills, price is determined by a contractual formula that's based on some indices that reflect general costs involved in mining. I will tell you that, throughout the history of this mine, which is now 25 years, generally, the price has gone up with inflation, month-after-month, quarter-after-quarter, year-after-year. There's a way the formula works there's it's right now producing a decrease in price which I view that as an aberration rather as the norm.

那麼你去 Redhills 看看價格，價格是由合約公式決定的，該公式基於一些反映採礦一般成本的指數。我可以告訴你們，在這個礦井開採的 25 年歷史中，價格總體上是隨著通貨膨脹而上漲的，月復一月，季復一季，年復一年。這個公式的工作原理是，它現在導致價格下降，我認為這是一種異常現象，而不是常態。

I think that will readjust itself into a more normal pattern going forward, although we all know it's impossible to predict exactly where, inflation's headed generally as well as with respect to specific indices. Right, so you get volume, you've got price, and then the other part is our cost. And I would tell you, when you look at our cost, we've spent the last couple of years, and you know this, we spent the last couple of years, opening a new mine area and spending quite a bit of capital and getting all that up and running.

我認為，未來通貨膨脹將會重新調整為更正常的模式，儘管我們都知道，不可能準確預測通貨膨脹的整體走向以及具體指數的走向。對，所以你有了數量，就有了價格，然後另一部分就是我們的成本。我想告訴你，當你看看我們的成本時，你會發現，我們花了過去幾年的時間，你知道，我們花了過去幾年的時間，開闢了一個新的礦區，花費了相當多的資金，讓這一切開始運轉起來。

That's now done. But what that, what that's done is a significant amount of depreciation into our cost structure. And the life of the mind goes to 2032. We don't see significant additional capital requirements. There will be some, but they're not anywhere near the extent that we've had in the last few years. So, your depreciation, in a typical manufacturing business, you would think of depreciation and maintenance CapEx on offsetting each other.

現在已經完成了。但這會導致我們的成本結構大幅貶值。而精神生活則將持續到2032年。我們沒有看到顯著的額外資本需求。肯定會有一些，但遠不及過去幾年的程度。因此，在典型的製造業務中，您會認為折舊和維護資本支出是相互抵銷的。

In our businesses that's not really true. In particular here you're going to see, a gross profit as you mentioned operating profit is as we think about it, including an elevated level of depreciation that really is, to me it's an add back, because we're not in a position where we're going to have to replace that depreciation with more CapEx backs. So, those are just some things to think about as you're looking at MLMC in particular is that helpful?

在我們的業務中，事實並非如此。具體來說，你在這裡會看到，你提到的毛利，也就是營業利潤，正如我們所想的那樣，包括了一定程度的折舊，對我來說，這實際上是一種加回，因為我們不需要用更多的資本支出來彌補折舊。那麼，這些只是您在研究 MLMC 時需要考慮的一些事情，有幫助嗎？

That is helpful. The, I think you said $13 million of CapEx for that for the coal segment is some of that going to the unconsolidated entities?

這很有幫助。我想您說的是，煤炭部門的資本支出為 1300 萬美元，其中一部分會流向非合併實體嗎？

So, our customers fund all of the CapEx of the unconsolidated entities. We don't fund any of that CapEx. Customers pay all the costs. They provide all the capital.

因此，我們的客戶為非合併實體的所有資本支出提供資金。我們沒有為任何資本支出提供資金。顧客支付所有費用。他們提供所有資金。

Okay, so that, I mean. Push back a little bit, isn't that level of CapEx above your depreciation level for MLMC?

好的，我的意思就是這樣。稍微退一步，這個資本支出水準不是高於 MLMC 的折舊水準嗎？

Well, remember some of that CapEx is money from prior years that just didn't get spent. Okay, if you look back. I don't know, let's say a year ago, although I can't be you guys can be specific, but if you look back, we were saying 2025 was going to be lower CapEx levels, but we didn't spend things in 2024 and that's pushed over into 2025.

好吧，請記住，其中一部分資本支出是前幾年沒有花掉的資金。好吧，如果你回頭看的話。我不知道，就說一年前吧，雖然我無法告訴你們具體情況，但如果你回顧一下，我們說過 2025 年的資本支出水平會更低，但我們並沒有在 2024 年花錢，所以這被推遲到了 2025 年。

So sure, CapEx looks like it's bumped up a little bit, but, anytime you can delay spending capital, that of course, is a good thing. So, this isn't this capital expenditure isn't a surprise increase. It's just money that didn't get spent that's tailing into this year for the most part.

所以，確實，資本支出看起來有所增加，但是，任何時候你都可以推遲資本支出，這當然是一件好事。因此，這並不是一項令人意外的資本支出成長。這些錢大部分都還沒花掉，而且都留到今年了。

Got it. And then on the just quickly on the price reset. Are you able to take sort of what if inflation is still going up, is, are you able to say what? Created that aberration that brought you know the price down.

知道了。然後就快速重置價格。如果通貨膨脹持續上升，您能說什麼嗎？造成這種異常，導致價格下降。

It's an incredibly complex formula that looks at period versus period changes in a basket of specific indices that are related to Mining inputs. One of those is an index with respect to labor costs. One of those is related to diesel costs. There's another a number of other indices that are in there. And because there's period versus period comparison, so it's really looking at the change over time not a specific individual level.

這是一個極其複雜的公式，用於研究與採礦投入相關的一籃子特定指數的時期間變化。其中之一是有關勞動成本的指數。其中之一與柴油成本有關。其中還有許多其他指數。因為存在著不同時期之間的比較，所以它實際上觀察到的是隨時間的變化，而不是特定的個體層面的變化。

That's what can cause some of these swings. I will tell you that, this contract was executed back in the middle '90s, maybe early '90s, was before any of us were around. And it is not a pricing formula that any of us would sign up today. But it's what we live with, and it also ties to the contract between the power plant and TBA with respect to the electron sales, so it's kind of is what it is.

這就是造成某些波動的原因。我可以告訴你，這份合約是在 90 年代中期，也許是 90 年代初期簽訂的，那時我們還沒出生。這不是我們今天任何人會簽署的定價公式。但這就是我們的生活，它也與發電廠和 TBA 之間關於電子銷售的合約有關，所以它就是這樣。

I see, okay, got it. On the mineral management division, obviously gas prices have come up a lot over the last month or two. And I wondered if your guidance reflected some conservatism on prices or is it that Given the low prices last year, drilling has come down or you know well expansion has come down and it's going to take some time to get that going again assuming prices hold at these higher levels.

我明白了，好的，明白了。在礦產管理部門，顯然天然氣價格在過去一兩個月上漲了很多。我想知道您的指導是否反映了價格方面的一些保守態度，或者考慮到去年的低價，鑽探已經下降，或者您知道擴張已經下降，並且假設價格保持在較高水平，那麼要再次恢復還需要一些時間。

Well, I mean, I'll tell you generally, Culturally, we don't see a lot of upside in being overly optimistic. I know there's lots of companies out there that do that, but that to me leads to overpromising and underdelivering. We would rather, be more on the conservative side of things because I don't, there's just little upside in us.

嗯，我的意思是，我通常會告訴你，從文化角度來看，我們認為過度樂觀不會帶來太多好處。我知道有很多公司都這樣做，但對我來說，這會導致承諾過多而交付不足。我們寧願採取更保守的立場，因為我認為，這樣做對我們來說沒有什麼好處。

Getting out on the edge of our projections, so there's definitely some in there both with respect to pricing, I would say, as well as with respect to, volume production and the timing of new development. We tend to be pretty conservative how we think about those things. And if we end up with some nice upsides from that, that's great for all of us.

由於超出了我們的預測，所以我認為在定價、產量和新開發時機方面肯定存在一些問題。我們對這些事情的看法往往相當保守。如果我們最終能從中獲得一些好處，那麼對我們所有人來說都是一件好事。

Okay, great, makes sense. On North American mining. So, I guess, I guess first you had the weather effects at the end of last year and you had mentioned on the last call that sometimes you see a pickup, as there's some rebuilding after hurricanes. Is that, are you seeing that at this point?

好的，很好，很有道理。關於北美採礦業。所以，我想，首先，您在去年年底受到了天氣影響，並且您在上次電話會議上提到，有時您會看到回升，因為颶風過後會進行一些重建。是這樣的，你現在看到了嗎？

Maybe in a small way, but, there's the damage, was pretty severe, especially through Central Florida. And I think, we're yet to see how this really plays out with respect to pick up. Over and above what would be a normal level of production related to the hurricane.

或許影響不大，但損失相當嚴重，尤其是佛羅裡達州中部。我認為，我們還沒有看到這在實際復甦方面將如何發揮作用。超出了颶風造成的正常生產水準。

So, it's sort of back to normal, but you're not seeing elevated demand.

因此，情況有點恢復正常，但你並沒有看到需求增加。

I'm sorry, can you say that again?

抱歉，你能再說一次嗎？

So trends are kind of back to where they were before the hurricanes, but you haven't seen any sort of extra demand is that?

所以趨勢有點回到颶風之前的狀態，但你沒有看到任何額外的需求，對嗎？

Yeah, I'd say they're headed that direction, are we seeing a post hurricane bump yet? I don't think we are to any significant extent.

是的，我想說他們正朝著那個方向前進，我們是否已經看到颶風過後的衝擊了？我認為我們並沒有達到很大的程度。

Ok.

好的。

But I can't promise how it plays out in this, in this particular situation, but generally you do see a bump, 6 months to 12 months later, following the hurricanes. This is a little different because you got three in a row.

但我無法保證在這種特殊情況下情況會如何發展，但一般來說，颶風過後 6 到 12 個月內，你確實會看到一個高峰。這有點不同，因為你已經連續三次了。

Right, yeah and I spent some time. On the North American mining website and going through your case and I guess what I concluded and let me know if I'm wrong on this is that business is differentiated versus a lot of mining operations in both the dragline expertise and the ability to do to mine quarries that are submerged.

是的，是的，我花了一些時間。在北美採礦網站上，我瀏覽了您的案例，我想我得出的結論是，這項業務與許多採礦業務在拖纜專業知識和開採水下採石場的能力方面有所不同，如果我錯了，請告訴我。

But I've noticed that I think the language changed a little bit in the K you released yesterday and also the website. Seems to be changing a little bit and it, so my impression is that as you expand that business, you're going to be doing less of that work. So I guess, is that correct? And if that's true, is that an implications for the economics of the business and your ability to Add customers, I wonder if you could kind of talk to that a little bit.

但我注意到，您昨天發布的 K 和網站上的語言略有變化。似乎正在發生一些變化，所以我的印像是，隨著業務的擴展，你要做的工作會越來越少。所以我猜，這是正確的嗎？如果這是真的，這是否會對企業的經濟狀況和增加客戶的能力產生影響，我想知道您是否可以稍微談談這個問題。

Yeah, so North American mining, we're just, I apologize, but we're going to do a little bit of history here, right? North American mining came, back in 1995 was the origin of this working with a customer that we still work for in Southern Florida, and, we were, they were looking for somebody that had dragline operating expertise and we started helping them. That grew, somewhat, until 2015, over, that 20 years, and then in 2015, we really started focusing on, how do we grow this business pretty substantially.

是的，所以北美採礦業，我們只是，我很抱歉，但我們在這裡要講一點歷史，對吧？北美採礦公司於 1995 年成立，我們與南佛羅裡達州的一位客戶開始合作，現在我們仍在為其服務，當時，他們正在尋找具有拖纜操作專業知識的人，於是我們開始幫助他們。直到 2015 年，也就是 20 多年後，業務才有所成長。 2015 年，我們開始真正專注於如何大幅發展這項業務。

That led us to really take a deep dive into what is our, what are our unique skills that give us a competitive advantage in this space. Well, one of those competitive advantages is we are told by one of the largest equipment manufacturers in the world that they believe that we operate more draglines than any other company in the world. This there may be some countries. Who operate more but they think we operate more than anybody else.

這促使我們真正深入研究我們的獨特技能是什麼，這些技能使我們在這個領域具有競爭優勢。嗯，其中一個競爭優勢是，世界上最大的設備製造商之一告訴我們，他們相信我們經營的拖纜比世界上任何其他公司都多。有些國家可能存在這種情況。誰操作得更多，但他們認為我們比任何人都更操作。

So you start fundamentally with a unique piece of equipment that requires some specialized skills in order to get the full productivity capabilities out of that piece of equipment. Now, you take that to Florida, and it's even more specialized because in Florida, primarily, we're mining under, in, on quarries where the aggregates are underwater. So it's a further specialization of the skill. And we're really the only people that are doing that at any scale at all in the United States.

因此，您從根本上開始使用一件獨特的設備，該設備需要一些專業技能才能充分發揮該設備的生產力。現在，你把它帶到佛羅裡達州，它就更加專業了，因為在佛羅裡達州，我們主要是在採石場內進行採礦，而骨料都在水下。所以這是技能的進一步專業化。而且我們確實是美國唯一一家大規模進行此類活動的公司。

There are some small players, out there, but they tend to have smaller equipment, they're sort of much smaller businesses than we are. They don't have the resources to really approach this business like we do. Now Florida is not the only place that has quarries where you're mining underwater. I will tell you one of the contracts that we have signed with an existing customer. We will be mining starting in 2026. Starting in 2026, we're going to be mining underwater in Arizona.

有一些小公司，但他們的設備往往較小，他們的企業規模比我們小得多。他們沒有像我們一樣的資源來真正開展這項業務。現在，佛羅裡達州並不是唯一一個擁有水下採石場的地方。我將向您介紹我們與現有客戶簽訂的合約。我們將從 2026 年開始採礦。從 2026 年開始，我們將在亞利桑那州進行水下採礦。

When we first heard about this, I said there's no way that they're mining underwater in Arizona because the water table must be so that's not actually the case. So, this is an opportunity for us to do the same thing in Arizona and it can be done other places in the country as well. So, there's probably plenty of opportunities for us to continue to expand this business which we view as operating a very specialized piece of mining equipment, in a unique way. When you get beyond, draglines mining underwater, you'll note that we've also been using, surface miners, both in our coal operations, which we've been doing for a long time, for sort of surgical extraction of coal.

當我們第一次聽到這件事時，我說他們不可能在亞利桑那州的水下採礦，因為地下水位一定很高，所以事實並非如此。因此，這是我們在亞利桑那州做同樣事情的機會，也可以在該國其他地方做同樣的事情。因此，我們可能有很多機會繼續擴大這項業務，我們認為這項業務是以獨特的方式運作非常專業的採礦設備。當您了解水下挖土機以外的情況時，您會注意到，我們在煤炭作業中也一直在使用露天採礦機，這種做法我們已經做了很長時間了，目的是對煤炭進行外科手術式開採。

But we've been, operating a surface miner, which is like, when you're driving down the road, you see those milling machines that are chewing up the pavement and putting them in, putting it into a truck. It's the same kind of machine that we use except much larger and obviously with much stronger extraction capability. So we have been using a piece of equipment like that to help a customer extract limestone, and the advantages of that are you don't have to, the customer doesn't have to crush it to the same extent because the machine already grinds it up and you don't have to incur blasting.

但是我們一直在操作露天採礦機，就像當你在路上開車時，你會看到那些銑鉋機正在銑刨路面，然後把它們放進卡車裡。它與我們使用的機器是同一類型，只是體積更大，提取能力顯然也更強。因此，我們一直在使用這樣的設備來幫助客戶提取石灰石，這樣做的好處是你不需要，客戶也不需要將其粉碎到同樣的程度，因為機器已經將其磨碎了，你不需要進行爆破。

So you think about quarries in fast growing areas, we don't operate in this area, but I'm just going to say, there's quarries around San Antonio. When you think how San Antonio has grown tremendously in the last several years, they now have businesses and housing closer to these quarries and they have trouble with blasting. These are dry quarries. We think that this is a piece of equipment. Where again we've got very specific expertise, where we think that we can go provide this service to others in a way that would be good for their business.

所以你想想快速發展地區的採石場，我們沒有在這個地區經營，但我只想說，聖安東尼奧周圍有採石場。當你想到聖安東尼奧在過去幾年中的巨大發展時，你會發現他們的企業和住房現在都靠近這些採石場，而且他們在爆破方面遇到了麻煩。這些是乾燥採石場。我們認為這是一件設備。我們擁有非常專業的技能，我們認為我們可以以有利於他人業務的方式向他們提供這項服務。

Now, in every instance, our main competition for the work that we do is the quarry operator themselves. I would say a majority of quarry operators do their own binding. Well, as we work with more and more of these guys, we see that there are a lot of opportunities to bring our expertise to the table and let them, they want to focus on what they're good at, which is reading their market, securing their reserves, processing it in the proper way, selling it and all that.

現在，在任何情況下，我們所做工作的主要競爭對手就是採石場營運商本身。我想說大多數採石場經營者都是自己進行裝訂的。好吧，隨著我們與越來越多的人合作，我們發現有很多機會可以發揮我們的專業知識，讓他們專注於自己擅長的領域，即了解市場、確保儲備、以適當的方式處理、銷售等等。

Their expertise doesn't necessarily lie in mining. So, this is where we come in and we think that we can provide the mining services for them in a way that is more economical and effective than they can do themselves. And we can do so we can save them money, and we can make enough of a margin that is attractive to us. So that's really the framework around this business. Now, with respect to the aggregates, that's an aggregate quarry is a pretty simple thing where you're extracting the aggregate, you're crushing it, you're selling it.

他們的專長並不一定在於採礦。所以，這就是我們要做的，我們認為我們可以以比他們自己做的更經濟、更有效的方式為他們提供採礦服務。我們可以這樣做，既可以為他們節省資金，又可以獲得足夠的利潤，這對我們自己來說很有吸引力。這就是這項業務的真正框架。現在，就骨料而言，骨料採石場是一個非常簡單的東西，你可以提取骨料，將其粉碎，然後出售。

We're doing the same thing at Sawtooth in northern Nevada for the lithium mine, except there instead of just running the extraction equipment, we're actually running the coal mine. It's much more like a coal mining operation where you've got to strip the topsoil and, do permitting and do all this work ultimately. Extract the resource. So it's the same kind of very specialized mining, but in a very traditional way with respect to lithium mining. The long answer, but I hope that's helpful.

我們在內華達州北部的 Sawtooth 鋰礦也做著同樣的事情，只不過我們在那裡不僅僅運行提取設備，實際上還在運行煤礦。這更像是一個煤礦開採作業，你必須剝離表層土，然後獲得許可，並最終完成所有這些工作。提取資源。因此，這是一種非常專業的採礦，但就鋰礦開採而言，採用非常傳統的方式。答案很長，但我希望這會有所幫助。

That is helpful are the economics or the margins similar on the Dragline work versus the surface mining work.

這有助於了解拉鏟作業與露天採礦作業在經濟效益或利潤率的相似性。

I would say generally yes because again you're competing, our margins are tempered by how somebody could do it themselves. And the trick to the expansion in this business, and we, I guess we allude to this in the earnings releases when we land a new project. If it's purely services, we're operating equipment that's the dragline surface miner that's owned by the customer, then, there's very little cash out on our part and for the term of the contract, we're going to earn fees based on the work that we do.

我認為一般來說會的，因為我們再次處於競爭狀態，我們的利潤受到別人如何自己做事的限制。這是擴大該業務的訣竅，我想當我們獲得一個新專案時，我們會在收益報告中提到這一點。如果是純粹的服務，我們操作的設備是客戶擁有的拖纜露天採礦機，那麼我們這邊的現金支出就很少，並且在合約期限內，我們將根據我們所做的工作賺取費用。

If we have to put in capital, we will put in capital upfront. It's so there's a capital outlay at the beginning.

如果我們必須投入資金，我們就會預先投入資金。因此一開始就需要一筆資本支出。

But that's the capital outlay at the beginning. We're going to have to appreciate the equipment, but that's a non-cash charge. And over the life of the contract, we're going to generate very nice returns. These things have nice NPVs. They have attractive IRRs and if you think of an annual measurement of return on capital, well, obviously that's lower in the beginning when you've got undepreciated capital and it's much higher later in the contract and you lower depreciated capital.

但這是一開始的資本支出。我們必須對設備進行估價，但這是非現金費用。在合約有效期內，我們將獲得非常可觀的回報。這些東西有很好的淨現值。它們具有具有吸引力的 IRR，如果您考慮資本回報率的年度衡量標準，那麼，顯然，當您擁有未折舊資本時，它在開始時會較低，而在合約後期當您擁有較低的折舊資本時，它會高得多。

But our business overall, not just in North American Mining, is that we seek out long term contracts or long-term investments with respect to mitigation resources, and every year when we sign new contracts, we get new customers, we invest in minerals. We're making a single year investment that really I'm going to use the word annuity, but obviously in a straight up annuity.

但我們的整體業務（不僅僅是在北美採礦業）是尋求與緩解資源相關的長期合約或長期投資，並且每年當我們簽署新合約時，我們都會獲得新客戶，我們會投資礦產。我們正在進行一年期的投資，實際上我將使用年金這個詞，但顯然是直接年金。

But we sign these things up and then know that we're building in our revenue and profit streams for years to come. And that's what we've been doing the last 10 years in this business is, adding more businesses, adding more projects, adding more opportunities for growth and building where 2025 is kind of the point when all this is starting to reach a tipping point. When, as we mentioned, 2025, we think it's going to be cash positive, and we think that's going to continue in the future as we add more and more layers of contracts and investments and projects on top of each other.

但我們簽署了這些協議，然後知道我們將在未來幾年內建立我們的收入和利潤流。這就是我們過去 10 年在這個行業中所做的事情，增加更多的業務，增加更多的項目，增加更多的成長機會和建設機會，而 2025 年就是所有這一切開始達到臨界點的時間點。正如我們所提到的，到 2025 年，我們認為它將產生正現金流，而且我們認為，隨著我們不斷增加合約、投資和專案層級，這種情況將在未來持續下去。

Well, and then on Thacker Pass. Lithium prices have really come down over the last couple of years and I'm just curious if you have any visibility or any thoughts on the timing of, I think it's moved out a little bit, but do you think that's going to be somewhat dependent on a recovery in lithium prices, or do you think it's going to go ahead regardless?

好吧，然後是薩克山口。在過去幾年裡，鋰價確實下降了，我只是好奇您是否對時機有任何了解或想法，我認為它已經稍微落後了，但您認為這將在某種程度上取決於鋰價的複蘇，還是您認為它無論如何都會繼續下去？

Well, I mean, I think this project got a lot going for it. If you look at the lithium America's website, they've got a tremendous amount of information with respect to their project and their reserve and why they believe this is a compelling, investment for them. Their disclosures include discussion of their costs, and, Amongst the ways that you can get lithium, through whether it's bound up in rock or it's a brine process or whatever, the extraction process, and the mining process here is.

嗯，我的意思是，我認為這個專案有很多進展。如果你查看美國鋰業公司的網站，你會發現他們有大量關於他們的項目和儲備的信息，以及為什麼他們認為這對他們來說是一項引人注目的投資。他們的披露包括討論他們的成本，以及獲取鋰的方式，無論是透過岩石還是鹽水工藝，提取工藝，還是採礦工藝。

Comparatively low cost and the processing, the process that their facility will go through in order to extract the lithium from the clay is pretty standard stuff. There's no magic in this. It's a, it's all standard processes that have been used in other applications. So, they actually have a pretty low-cost approach to here to their product that, I think withstands a lot of price decrease and still leaves them with very significant profits.

成本相對較低，而且他們的工廠從粘土中提取鋰的過程是相當標準的。這沒有什麼魔法。這是，這是其他應用程式中使用的所有標準流程。所以，他們實際上對他們的產品採取了相當低成本的方法，我認為這種方法可以承受價格大幅下降，並且仍然可以獲得非常可觀的利潤。

I would also add that, they recently have issued a release where they they've proved out, we actually did some of this work with them. They proved out that they are now the largest proved lithium reserve in the world and it's domestic, right? This is in the United States. So, you think about the number of ways that this thing is highly competitive. It's low cost, even at current prices.

我還要補充一點，他們最近發布了一份新聞稿，證明我們確實與他們一起做了一些這方面的工作。他們已經證明，他們目前擁有世界上最大的已探明鋰儲量，而且是在國內，對嗎？這是在美國。所以，你想想這個東西在很多方面都有很強的競爭力。即使以當前價格計算，它的成本也很低。

It's in the United States, it's, even all the output of this factor pass project in phase one is a tiny drop in the bucket with respect to lithium, demand. So I feel pretty good about this project overall and our position as the contract miner for them. But I would encourage you to go look because they've got a tremendous amount of information. It's a really thoughtful, website with a lot of A lot of information, you can get way in the weeds in some of their details.

在美國，即使第一階段該要素通行證計畫的所有產出相對於鋰的需求來說也只是杯水車薪。因此，我對這個項目以及我們作為他們的合約礦工的地位總體上感到非常滿意。但我鼓勵你去看看，因為他們掌握了大量的資訊。這是一個非常周到的網站，包含大量信息，您可以透過其中的一些細節深入了解。

Okay, I'll do that. You had the, you took the reserve last quarter on the phosphate customer, is that still non-operating that phosphate work or is that going to start?

好的，我會這麼做。上個季度，你們為磷酸鹽客戶提取了儲備金，磷酸鹽業務是否仍處於停工狀態，還是即將開始營運？

That is not operating at the current time we're monitoring the situation, and you know trying to see how that plays out.

目前，我們正在監視情況，並試圖了解情況如何發展。

Okay, and then just on the cash flow, working capital was a significant use of cash and, I guess that was receivables and inventory, I guess a couple of questions there I guess, do you think will working capital be a source of cash do you think in 2025?

好的，然後僅就現金流而言，營運資本是現金的重要用途，我想那是應收帳款和庫存，我想這裡有幾個問題，您認為營運資本會成為 2025 年的現金來源嗎？

And then on the inventory itself, you give a little detail and it's primarily mining supplies. Is that something that's going to fluctuate or is that sort of an upward trend as you grow North American mining? Like what are those mining supplies? Yeah.

然後關於庫存本身，你給一些細節，它主要是採礦用品。隨著北美採礦業的發展，這種情況會有所波動嗎？還是會呈現上升趨勢？那些採礦用品是什麼？是的。

So let me give some thoughts on working capital and I'll give it to Liz for more detail. Working capital for our business operates very different than a typical, business that's making things and selling them and they're looking at how does all that work. For us, if you look at our North American mining business, we will stock parts in advance of significant outages, well, in advance of any outage, regular maintenance for the many draglines that we operate.

因此，讓我就營運資金提出一些想法，然後我會向 Liz 提供更多詳細資訊。我們業務的營運資本運作方式與典型的製造和銷售產品的業務非常不同，他們正在研究這一切是如何運作的。對我們來說，如果你看看我們的北美採礦業務，我們會在重大停電之前儲備零件，在任何停電之前，我們會對我們運營的許多拖纜進行定期維護。

Some of these, we own the drag lines and in other instances, our customer owns the draglines. So, as we see outages coming, we will increase our level of inventory because there may be specific parts that are very long lead time in their nature, and that will show up as an increase in inventory. For a period of time, even though we know that we're ultimately going to we're going to put those into an outage at a dragline and then the inventory will come down. So that's, kind of a normal [ebb] and flow that goes through North American mining based on what it sees coming with respect to outages.

其中一些，我們擁有拖纜，而在其他情況下，我們的客戶擁有拖纜。因此，當我們看到停產即將發生時，我們將增加庫存水平，因為某些特定零件的交貨時間可能很長，這將導致庫存增加。在一段時間內，儘管我們知道我們最終會將它們放入挖土機的停機位，然後庫存就會下降。因此，根據停電情況的預測，北美採礦業將經歷一種正常的起伏。

The other thing I'd add is that mitigation resources, the accounting there is as we develop Mitigation banking credits, whether they're stream credits or wetland credits, those show up as inventory and then, over the life of the mitigation bank those will be the Army Corps of Engineers we have agreed on a schedule. Under which those can be sold over a period of time. So, you'll see inventory buildup in that business as well because we create a product which is a dream or wetland credit. Go on the balance sheet as inventory and then as we sell it comes off inventory.

我想補充的另一件事是，緩解資源，在我們開發緩解銀行信用額度時進行的核算，無論是溪流信用額度還是濕地信用額度，這些都會顯示為庫存，然後，在緩解銀行的整個生命週期中，這些將由我們按照時間表商定的陸軍工程兵團負責。根據該規定，這些物品可以在一段時間內出售。因此，您也會看到該業務的庫存積累，因為我們創造了一種夢想或濕地信用產品。在資產負債表上將其作為庫存，然後當我們出售時，它就會從庫存中消失。

Let's go to.

我們去吧。

As J.C. mentioned, we do expect 2025 to be cash flow positive. Part of that is some favorable changes in working capital. We had some timing differences in trade receivables that should, kind of come back. In '25 and as J.C. mentioned, we're building up inventory. Part of that is some critical spares as well related to as we continue to increase the contract at North American Mining, we have a larger pool of draglines that we need critical spares for.

正如 J.C. 所提到的，我們確實預計 2025 年的現金流將為正值。其中一部分是營運資本的一些有利變化。我們的貿易應收款存在一些時間差異，這些差異應該會恢復。在 25 年，正如 J.C. 所提到的，我們正在建立庫存。其中一部分是一些關鍵備件，隨著我們繼續增加北美礦業的合同，我們擁有更大的挖掘機庫存，需要關鍵備件。

Okay, so when you talk about cash flow positive, you're talking free cash flow, sort of operating cash from operations less CapEx. --

好的，當您談論正現金流時，您談論的是自由現金流，即營運產生的營運現金減去資本支出。--

Sorry, I didn't hear you. What was that?

抱歉，我沒聽見。那是什麼？

Yes, cash will flow before financing.

是的，現金會在融資前流入。

Right, okay, yes, yeah, got it.

好的，好的，是的，是的，明白了。

Yeah, that's before financing.

是的，那是在融資之前。

Yeah, okay. All right, well, I think that's all I have. I really, as always, really appreciate the time and congrats on this, you're clearly making progress on all your initiatives. So, thanks again and look forward to talking next quarter.

嗯，好的。好吧，我想我所知道的就這些了。我真的一如既往地非常感謝您抽出時間並對此表示祝賀，您顯然在所有計劃上都取得了進展。所以，再次感謝並期待下個季度的交談。

Yeah, well, thank you for your question. Sorry you had a little technical glitch in the beginning, but glad we stuck around with your questions and like you said, we love our story and we're going to engage, in a more, wholesome way later this year in investor outreach, so we look forward to sharing information with everybody about that, in months to come.

是的，謝謝你的提問。很抱歉一開始出現了一點技術故障，但很高興我們一直在回答您的問題，就像您說的，我們喜歡我們的故事，我們將在今年晚些時候以更健康的方式參與投資者拓展活動，因此我們期待在未來幾個月與大家分享有關這方面的信息。

Great thanks.

非常感謝。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Ladies and gentlemen, as a reminder, should you have a question, please press one.

女士們、先生們，提醒一下，如果您有任何問題，請按 1。

There are no further questions at this time, I will now turn the call over to Christina for closing remarks.

目前沒有其他問題，我現在將電話交給克里斯蒂娜做結束語。

Thank you so much. I believe, as I mentioned earlier, if you do have any questions, please reach out to me. My phone number is on the release. I hope you enjoy the rest of your day, and I'll turn it back to Joel to conclude the call.

太感謝了。我相信，正如我之前提到的，如果您有任何疑問，請與我聯繫。我的電話號碼在新聞稿上有。我希望您今天過得愉快，然後我將把通話交給喬爾來結束。

(Operator Instructions) This concludes your conference call for today. We thank you for participating and ask that you please disconnect your lines.

（操作員指示）今天的電話會議到此結束。感謝您的參與，並請您斷開線路。