伊塔烏聯合銀行 (ITUB) 2024 Q3 法說會逐字稿

Hello. Good morning, everyone, and thank you very much for taking part in another quarterly earnings conference, this time to talk about the third quarter of 2024, which we are broadcasting, as always, from our office in Avenida Faria Lima, in Sao Paulo. The event will be divided into two parts. In the first part, Milton will take you through our performance and earnings for the third quarter of 2024 and then we will have a Q&A session, during which analysts and investors will be able to interact with us directly.

你好。大家早安，非常感謝大家參加另一場季度收益會議，這次會議討論的是 2024 年第三季度，我們一如既往地在聖保羅法裡亞利馬大道的辦公室進行廣播。活動將分為兩個部分。第一部分，米爾頓將向您介紹我們2024年第三季的業績和收益，然後我們將進行問答環節，在此期間分析師和投資者將能夠直接與我們互動。

I would like to provide some guidance to help you make the most of our meeting today. For those viewing this through our website, there are three audio options on the screen. You can choose to listen to the entire content in Portuguese, the entire content in English, or just the original audio. For the first two options, we will have simultaneous translation. To choose your preferred option, just click on the flag at the top of your screen.

我想提供一些指導，幫助您充分利用我們今天的會議。對於透過我們的網站查看此內容的人，螢幕上有三個音訊選項。您可以選擇收聽葡萄牙語的全部內容、英語的全部內容或僅收聽原始音訊。對於前兩個選項，我們將提供同聲翻譯。要選擇您喜歡的選項，只需點擊螢幕頂部的標誌即可。

Questions can also be sent via WhatsApp. For those viewing through the website, just click on the button on the screen, or simply send a message directly to the number +55-11-96176-8561. Today's presentation will be available for download on the website screen and, as always, on our Investor Relations website. That's it for now.

問題也可以透過 WhatsApp 發送。對於透過網站查看的用戶，只需點擊螢幕上的按鈕，或直接發送訊息至號碼+55-11-96176-8561。今天的簡報可在網站螢幕上以及一如既往地在我們的投資者關係網站上下載。現在就這樣。

I will now hand over the floor to Milton, who will begin the earnings presentation, and then I will come back to you at the end to moderate the Q&A session. Milton, the floor is yours.

我現在將發言權交給米爾頓，他將開始收益演示，然後我將在最後回到您身邊主持問答環節。米爾頓，地板是你的。

Good morning, everyone. Welcome to another earnings presentation to talk about the third quarter earnings. I will try to keep my presentation brief, so that we have more time for our Q&A chat. I will talk about earnings, ESG, digital, technology, transformation, and at the end a little more about our guidance.

大家早安。歡迎參加另一場收益報告，討論第三季財報。我會盡量保持演講簡短，以便我們有更多時間進行問答聊天。我將討論收益、ESG、數位、技術、轉型，最後再談我們的指導。

Starting with the earnings for the third quarter of 2024, we saw quarterly managerial recurring results of BRL10.7 billion, which is a very strong result, growing 6% quarter over quarter and almost 20% year over year on a comparable basis. This result leads us to a consolidated return on equity of 22.7% and a return on equity in Brazil of 23.8%. These are very important results.

從 2024 年第三季的收益開始，我們看到季度管理經常性業績為 107 億雷亞爾，這是一個非常強勁的業績，季度環比增長 6%，同比增長近 20%。這結果使我們的綜合股本回報率為 22.7%，巴西的股本回報率為 23.8%。這些都是非常重要的結果。

That being said, it is always important to pay attention to capital. In this quarter, we delivered a Common Equity Tier I ratio of 13.7% with a growth of 60 basis points in the period, and we are substantially above our capital approved by the Board within the risk appetite, which is a Common Equity Tier I ratio of 11.5%.

話雖如此，關注資本始終很重要。本季度，我們的普通股一級資本比率為 13.7%，期間增長了 60 個基點，遠高於董事會在風險偏好範圍內批准的資本，即普通股一級資本比率11.5%。

If we were to simulate what the ROE would be adjusted by the minimum capital ratio approved by the Board of Directors, we would be running at 24.6% in the consolidated ROE and, in Brazil, at 26.4%. So, this shows you the level of profitability that is most comparable in relation to the numbers that have been released.

如果我們模擬根據董事會批准的最低資本比率調整 ROE，我們的綜合 ROE 將為 24.6%，而在巴西則為 26.4%。因此，這向您顯示了與已發布的數字最具可比性的盈利水平。

An ROE of 26.4% in Brazil is truly a very strong profitability, with significant growth. In the loan portfolio, we grew 1.9% quarter over quarter, with a growth of almost 10% in the year. Later on, I will give more details about the portfolio and present the delinquency levels, which are within acceptable thresholds, with drops in both short- and long-term indicators.

巴西26.4%的ROE確實是非常強勁的獲利能力，且成長顯著。在貸款組合中，我們環比成長 1.9%，全年成長近 10%。稍後，我將提供有關投資組合的更多詳細信息，並介紹拖欠水平，該水平在可接受的閾值內，短期和長期指標均有所下降。

We also have very positive news concerning the Financial Margin with Clients, which has grown 4.5% quarter over quarter and 8.2% year over year on a comparable basis. So, this is the summary that I always bring to you, and the numbers speak for themselves.

我們還有關於客戶財務保證金的非常積極的消息，按可比計算，該保證金季度環比增長 4.5%，同比增長 8.2%。所以，這就是我一直帶給大家的總結，數字不言而喻。

I think we are succeeding in delivering a very solid performance, with good profitability and the capacity to generate capital, while at the same time investing in the bank's growth.

我認為我們成功地實現了非常穩健的業績，具有良好的獲利能力和產生資本的能力，同時投資於銀行的成長。

We added an additional column to the loan portfolio presentation this quarter, which I think is important for us to conduct the presentation in the best possible way. The individual loans segment grew 2.5% quarter over quarter, which is a very important growth.

我們在本季度的貸款投資組合演示中添加了一個附加欄，我認為這對於我們以最佳方式進行演示非常重要。個人貸款部分較上季成長2.5%，這是一個非常重要的成長。

This happened throughout the quarter, which shows that the average balance for individuals is reasonably well in line with the growth in the quarter, which is what matters for the NII and NIM, showing the bank's full revenue generation capacity.

這種情況在整個季度都發生了，這表明個人平均餘額與本季的成長相當吻合，這對 NII 和 NIM 來說很重要，顯示了銀行的全部創收能力。

The SME portfolio posted a quarter-over-quarter growth of 4.1%. This is slightly lower in the average balance, which shows that much of the growth occurred towards the end of the quarter. But the most important thing for this picture is to look at what happens with the portfolios of Large Corporates and Latin America.

中小企業投資組合較上季成長 4.1%。平均餘額略低，這表明大部分增長發生在季度末。但對於這張圖來說，最重要的是看看大型企業和拉丁美洲的投資組合會發生什麼。

In Large Corporates, despite a growth of only 0.7% in the period, we must remember that an asset that left the balance sheet in this quarter had a significant effect. We saw the recovery of a credit case at the end of the period, which we mentioned a lot in the last presentations, which shows that the average balance grew 5.9% in the quarter. And it is this growth that affects the bank's NIM and NII.

在大型企業中，儘管這段期間僅成長了 0.7%，但我們必須記住，本季離開資產負債表的一項資產產生了重大影響。我們在期末看到了信貸案件的恢復，我們在上次的演示中多次提到了這一點，這表明該季度的平均餘額增長了 5.9%。正是這種成長影響了銀行的NIM和NII。

In the Latin America portfolio, this effect is even stronger. The portfolio grew 1.2% quarter over quarter. Excluding the effect I mentioned, it grew 8.2% in the average balance. So, we could say that when we talk about gross NIM, that is without the risk adjustment, the main effect of this 10 basis points drop was due to the average portfolio of Latin America having grown more than the average portfolio of Large Corporates and more than the average portfolio of individuals and SMEs. So, this is the mathematical effect of the mix on the average balance of the portfolios.

在拉丁美洲投資組合中，這種效應更為強烈。該投資組合季增 1.2%。排除我提到的影響，平均餘額增加了8.2%。因此，我們可以說，當我們談論總淨利差（NIM）時，即沒有風險調整的情況下，這10 個基點下降的主要影響是由於拉丁美洲的平均投資組合增長超過了大型企業的平均投資組合。因此，這就是組合對投資組合平均餘額的數學影響。

When we remove the cost of credit, we see an expansion in the risk-adjusted NIM, going from 5.7% to 6.0% in the consolidated. When we look at Brazil's risk-adjusted NIM, which naturally does not include the Latin America effect and can be explained by the mix between Large Corporate, SMEs, and Individuals, we see a 30 basis points expansion, going from 6.2% to 6.5%.

當我們剔除信用成本後，我們發現風險調整後的淨利差有所擴大，綜合數據從 5.7% 上升至 6.0%。當我們觀察巴西的風險調整後淨利差時（自然不包括拉丁美洲的影響，可以用大型企業、中小企業和個人的混合來解釋），我們看到了30 個基點的擴張，從6.2% 上升到6.5% 。

During this presentation, I will go into a little more detail about the dynamics of the cost of credit. I would also like to present another number that is also relevant to you. The Financial Margin with Clients grew by BRL1.2 billion quarter over quarter, which represents 4.5% growth.

在本次演講中，我將更詳細地介紹信貸成本的動態。我還想介紹另一個與您相關的數字。客戶財務利潤季增 12 億雷亞爾，增幅為 4.5%。

Considering the Financial Margin with Clients ex-Argentina, which was present during seven months of 2023, we had a comparable growth of 8.2%, or BRL2.1 billion, which shows a very significant result in this line.

考慮到 2023 年 7 個月內與阿根廷以外的客戶的財務保證金，我們的可比增長率為 8.2%，即 21 億雷亞爾，這表明該領域取得了非常顯著的成果。

The financial margin with the market did not show any major highlights in the period, but we can say that we had a good result considering that we started from an exceptional second quarter, which shows that the bank was still able to grow its earnings, with a dynamic of greater financial margin with clients, better cost of credit, and lower financial margin with the market. So, I understand that this trend is positive for the mix.

在此期間，與市場的財務利潤率沒有出現任何重大亮點，但我們可以說，考慮到我們從出色的第二季度開始，我們取得了良好的業績，這表明該銀行仍然能夠增長其盈利，與客戶的財務利潤增加、信貸成本降低、與市場的財務利潤降低的動態。所以，我知道這種趨勢對混合是正面的。

In Brazil, we are performing well, not the same as the previous quarter, but substantially better than in fourth quarter 2023 and first quarter 2024. Everything remains constant in the financial margin with the market, with no major changes, with the exception of the cost of capital index hedge, which has been slightly higher due to the interest rate differential.

在巴西，我們的表現不錯，與上一季有所不同，但比 2023 年第四季和 2024 年第一季要好得多。財務保證金與市場保持一致，沒有發生重大變化，但資本指數對沖成本因利差略有上升。

I don't have anything major to highlight when it comes to commissions, fees, and results from insurance, but I do want to pass on some important messages. We grew 7% year over year, which is very significant, and some lines attract more attention, such as asset management, where we had 5.2% growth in the quarter and 16.9% growth year over year.

當談到佣金、費用和保險結果時，我沒有什麼重要的事情要強調，但我確實想傳遞一些重要的訊息。我們比去年同期成長了7%，這是非常顯著的，有些業務更受關注，例如資產管理，我們這個季度成長了5.2%，比去年同期成長了16.9%。

In advisory services and brokerage, despite observing a drop in the quarter, it is important to remember that the previous quarter was exceptional, especially in fixed income, which posted the best result in the bank's history. So, although we had a good result in this period, it was lower than what we had in the last quarter.

在諮詢服務和經紀業務方面，儘管本季度出現下滑，但重要的是要記住，上一季的表現非常出色，尤其是在固定收益領域，該季度創下了銀行歷史上最好的業績。因此，儘管我們在這段時期取得了不錯的成績，但低於上季的成績。

When we look year over year, we grew 11%, that is we continue to hold a leading (technical difficulty) that we have posted very consistent results in all lines of commissions and insurance operations, and that we continue with a very positive trend.

當我們逐年查看時，我們成長了 11%，也就是說，我們繼續保持領先（技術難度），我們在所有佣金和保險業務領域都發布了非常一致的結果，並且我們繼續保持非常積極的趨勢。

(technical difficulty) showed a positive evolution. So, when we look at the indicators for NPL 15-90 in Brazil, total, and Latin America, we can see that they are all improving. And we continue with the same dynamic in NPL 90, with an improvement of more than 10 basis points in the quarter in Brazil, which is the best indicator in the series, even considering the pre-pandemic period.

（技術難度）呈現出正向的演變。因此，當我們查看巴西、總計和拉丁美洲的不良貸款15-90的指標時，我們可以看到它們都在改善。我們在 NPL 90 中繼續保持同樣的動態，巴西本季改善了 10 個基點以上，這是該系列中最好的指標，即使考慮到疫情前時期也是如此。

We have very good news in NPL 15-90, both in Individuals and SMEs, with a drop of 20 basis points in both segments, which shows that we managed to grow and, what's more, with quality, which is reflected in this improvement in credit indicators. NPL 90 also shows a significant drop of 20 basis points in Individuals, and 10 basis points in SMEs.

我們在NPL 15-90 中得到了非常好的消息，無論是個人還是中小企業，這兩個細分市場都下降了20 個基點，這表明我們成功實現了增長，更重要的是，我們的質量也有所提高，這反映在信用指標上。NPL 90 也顯示個人顯著下降 20 個基點，中小企業顯著下降 10 個基點。

So, this picture shows how we have managed to navigate more challenging cycles with great quality. And we have managed not only to grow in terms of quality, but also to generate engagement and principality, with good results in the bank's balance sheet and good profitability. This has ultimately created value and generated capital to finance the bank's expansion.

因此，這張圖展示了我們如何以高品質應對更具挑戰性的周期。我們不僅在品質方面取得了成長，而且還建立了參與度和公信力，在銀行的資產負債表和獲利能力方面取得了良好的成果。這最終創造了價值並產生了為銀行擴張提供資金的資本。

In cost of credit, we see that, nominally, we had a better quarter than the previous one, having gone from BRL8.8 billion to BRL8.2 billion. But I would like to draw your attention to one point. In December 2022, we had a subsequent event involving a credit case from a retail company that led us to make a significant provision on the bank's balance sheet.

在信貸成本方面，我們看到，名義上，我們的季度比上一季更好，從 88 億雷亞爾增加到 82 億雷亞爾。但我想提請大家注意一點。2022 年 12 月，我們發生了一起涉及一家零售公司信用案件的後續事件，導致我們在該銀行的資產負債表上提列了重大撥備。

At the time, I told you that we had made a provision of almost BRL3 billion. Part of this impacted that quarter's result, and the other part was related to additional provisions that we had and that we allocated to this case, leaving it 100% provisioned. Thus, most of it was achieved through the provisions that were made during that period.

當時我告訴大家，我們已經撥備了近30億雷亞爾。其中一部分影響了該季度的業績，另一部分與我們擁有並分配給此案例的額外撥備有關，使其 100% 撥備。因此，其中大部分是透過該時期制定的規定來實現的。

This quarter, we made an important recovery that shows our ability to reverse such provisions. We recovered BRL500 million in the result, which is part of a total recovery of around BRL900 million in the bank's balance sheet. If you look at how much we reversed in relation to the mix of what was provisioned in the past, proportionally, we went through more in the result now than when we made the provision in December 2022.

本季度，我們取得了重要的復甦，這表明我們有能力扭轉此類規定。我們在結果中收回了 5 億雷亞爾，這是銀行資產負債表中約 9 億雷亞爾總收回額的一部分。如果你看看我們與過去撥備的組合相比有多少逆轉，按比例來看，我們現在的結果比我們在 2022 年 12 月撥備時經歷的更多。

The cost of credit is BRL500 million and I think it's important to make this visible to you. Naturally, this was a question that could have arisen if we hadn't mentioned it. Excluding this effect, the cost of credit over the portfolio would have been 2.8% and not 2.6%, once again demonstrating the strength of the balance sheet and our ability to reverse the provision in the same way as we originally provisioned.

信貸成本為 5 億雷亞爾，我認為讓您了解這一點很重要。當然，如果我們沒有提到的話，這個問題可能會出現。排除此影響，投資組合的信貸成本將為 2.8%，而不是 2.6%，這再次證明了資產負債表的實力以及我們以與最初撥備相同的方式扭轉撥備的能力。

When we look at the renegotiated portfolio, we can see excellent progress, with a continuous drop in the renegotiation indicator over the total portfolio, both in percentage and nominal terms, which shows that we continue to manage this portfolio excellently.

當我們查看重新談判的投資組合時，我們可以看到出色的進展，重新談判指標佔整個投資組合的百分比和名義值均持續下降，這表明我們繼續出色地管理該投資組合。

The coverage ratio fell in only one segment, related to the effect of this company, which had a significant balance of provisions on the bank's balance sheet, but which was not in overdue. Naturally, when we remove the provision balance, the coverage ratio drops. So, the coverage ratio dropped in the Large Corporates portfolio.

只有一個分部的覆蓋率下降，與該公司的影響有關，該公司在銀行資產負債表上有大量撥備餘額，但並未逾期。當然，當我們去掉撥備餘額時，覆蓋率就會下降。因此，大型企業投資組合的覆蓋率下降了。

However, if it weren't for this effect, the ratio would stand at 1,146% in Large Corporates and at 215% in the total portfolio, which shows that this drop of 10 percentage points is related to the specific case in which we had provision, but it was not overdue.

然而，如果沒有這種影響，大型企業的這一比率將達到 1,146%，總投資組合的這一比率將達到 215%，這表明這 10 個百分點的下降與我們提列撥備的具體情況有關。 ，但並沒有逾期。

On this slide, you will see two topics that I think are important to provide transparency and visibility for you, as we always seek to anticipate the news. Much has been said about the new CMN resolution 4966, which is the implementation of IFRS 9 for banks, and MP 1261, which is the Provisional Presidential Decree related to DTAs.

在這張投影片上，您將看到兩個主題，我認為這兩個主題對於為您提供透明度和可見性非常重要，因為我們始終致力於預測新聞。關於新的 CMN 4966 號決議（即銀行實施 IFRS 9）和 MP 1261（與避免雙重課稅協定相關的臨時總統令）已經談了很多。

So I think it's important to highlight two very relevant messages. The first is that this change will not have any impact on us, neither on the capital ratio, nor on equity, nor on the bank's cost of credit.

所以我認為強調兩個非常相關的資訊很重要。首先，這個改變不會對我們產生任​​何影響，無論是資本比率，或是股本，或是銀行的信貸成本。

We will make this transition as smooth as possible. First, because we have been working with the expected loss model since 2010. Second, because we have had this public consultation in 2018, so we have had enough time to work and adjust our processes since then.

我們將讓這項過渡盡可能順利。首先，因為我們自 2010 年以來一直在使用預期損失模型。第二，因為我們在2018年進行了這次公眾諮詢，所以從那時起我們有足夠的時間來工作和調整我們的流程。

Thirdly, because the bank's management model has always included the model for making provisions for expected losses on securities and other financial assets. So this is not something new in how we manage the bank's balance sheet.

第三，因為銀行的管理模式一直包含對證券等金融資產預期損失提列的模式。因此，這對我們管理銀行資產負債表的方式來說並不是什麼新鮮事。

The message to you is that this migration will not have any impact on the bank. It will not affect the cost of credit, the capital ratio, or the bank's equity. That's the first bit of good news. The second bit of good news concerns MP 1261, which is the provisional measure that allows the amortization of the allowance for loan losses to no longer take place in three years, as was the case with the original law, but rather in 7 or 10 years.

向您傳達的訊息是，此次遷移不會對銀行產生任何影響。它不會影響信貸成本、資本比率或銀行股本。這是第一個好消息。第二個好消息是MP 1261，這是一項臨時措施，允許貸款損失準備金的攤銷不再像原來的法律那樣在三年內攤銷，而是在七年或十年內攤銷。

Therefore, with the current deadlines, we will be able to absorb all of this tax credit expense over time, amortizing it without any impact on the capital ratio.

因此，在當前的最後期限內，我們將能夠隨著時間的推移吸收所有這些稅收抵免費用，並對其進行攤銷，而不會對資本比率產生任何影響。

So, this news is also related to CMN Resolution 4966. Let's talk about non-interest expenses. We saw an accumulated growth of 6.1% and a quarterly growth of 5.8%. The main effect here is the collective wage raise agreement. This is where the biggest impact on this line comes from.

所以，這個消息也跟CMN 4966號決議有關。我們來談談非利息支出。累計成長6.1%，季增5.8%。這裡的主要影響是集體工資上漲協議。這就是對這條線影響最大的地方。

When we look at the accumulated efficiency ratio over nine months, we are running at 37.5% in Brazil and at 39.1% in the consolidated, with a very positive trend and very solid indicators. The most important thing here is something I always talk about.

當我們查看九個月以來的累積效率時，我們在巴西的運作率為 37.5％，在合併中為 39.1％，具有非常積極的趨勢和非常可靠的指標。這裡最重要的是我經常談論的事情。

When we presented the 2024 guidance at the beginning of the year, I indicated that we would grow the bank's core costs below inflation and that has been the case. The bank's core costs have grown 4.0% in this period, compared to 12-month inflation, measured by the IPCA, of 4.4%.

當我們在年初提出 2024 年指引時，我表示我們將把銀行的核心成本提高到低於通膨的水平，事實也確實如此。在此期間，該銀行的核心成本成長了 4.0%，而根據 IPCA 衡量的 12 個月通膨率為 4.4%。

It's important to bear in mind that bank inflation is higher than the IPCA. However, we do not give up on making the necessary investments to expand the bank, strengthen our different segments, invest in technology, modernize our platforms, or improve our value proposition and the delivery of value to our clients.

重要的是要記住，銀行通膨高於 IPCA。然而，我們不會放棄進行必要的投資，以擴大銀行規模，加強我們的不同部門，投資技術，實現我們的平台現代化，或改善我們的價值主張和為客戶提供價值。

So, when we look at investments, the variation was BRL1.8 billion, with core costs growing BRL1.1 billion in the period. That is to say, the big offender of non-interest expenses are the investments we have been making, but it is precisely these investments that have allowed the bank to deliver this value and the profitability we have been achieving, increasing the top-line, improving our clients' experience, and expanding the organization. These are conscious decisions focused on the future and the bank's next 100 years.

因此，當我們查看投資時，變化為 18 億雷亞爾，其中核心成本在此期間增長了 11 億雷亞爾。也就是說，非利息支出的罪魁禍首是我們一直在進行的投資，但正是這些投資使銀行能夠實現這一價值以及我們已經實現的盈利能力，從而增加了營收，改善客戶體驗並擴大組織規模。這些都是著眼於未來和銀行未來 100 年的有意識的決定。

Allow me to give you an example of what these investments are. We have just talked about investments in technology, platform modernization, and artificial intelligence, but let's give an example of what value is being delivered by all that is already being done.

請容許我舉一個例子來說明這些投資是什麼。我們剛剛討論了對技術、平台現代化和人工智慧的投資，但讓我們舉一個例子來說明所有已經完成的工作正在帶來什麼價值。

We have some very relevant messages here. All the modernization we did on the platform has brought benefits. From 2018 to 2024, we reduced high-impact incidents by 99%. That is to say, it brought quality to the client's experience. It also brought speed. Today, we can implement solutions 15 times faster than we could in 2018.

我們這裡有一些非常相關的消息。我們在平台上所做的所有現代化改造都帶來了好處。從 2018 年到 2024 年，我們將高影響事件減少了 99%。也就是說，它為客戶的體驗帶來了品質。它還帶來了速度。如今，我們實施解決方案的速度比 2018 年快 15 倍。

This shows that we can not only solve clients demands much faster, but also generate value much more efficiently, with a much lower cost per transaction. So you can see that our cost on transactions have dropped by 55%. This is all combined with a powerful agenda of artificial intelligence, machine learning and models.

這表明我們不僅可以更快地解決客戶的需求，而且可以更有效地創造價值，而且每筆交易的成本更低。所以你可以看到我們的交易成本下降了 55%。這一切都與人工智慧、機器學習和模型的強大議程相結合。

We have over 430 data scientists, over 360 initiatives using generative AI, over 60 machine learning engineers, 450 skilled professionals working with generative AI, and over 1,000 AI models being used in the organization.

我們擁有超過 430 名資料科學家、超過 360 個使用生成式 AI 的計劃、超過 60 名機器學習工程師、450 名熟練的生成式 AI 專業人員以及組織內使用的超過 1,000 個 AI 模型。

This means that the bank is moving from the era of transformation and modernization that we have talked about so much, to the era of value delivery, hyper-personalization, value delivery at the client level, improved user experience, much greater speed, and a far greater capacity to react to clients' demands and needs.

這意味著銀行正在從我們談論的轉型和現代化時代轉向價值交付、超個人化、客戶層面的價值交付、改進的用戶體驗、更快的速度和更有效率的時代。要求和需求。

I would like to give you an example of a project that we have talked about a lot here. In all previous calls, we have been questioned about it, so we wanted to provide a clearer view of this initiative.

我想給你一個我們在這裡討論過很多次的項目的例子。在之前的所有電話會議中，我們都被問及過這一問題，因此我們希望對這項措施提供更清晰的看法。

We are transitioning from seven apps, which had completely different login methods, to two apps, the Super App and Ion, with a single login method. If we had tried to do this without having gone through all the modernization, with centralized data management and everything running in the cloud, it would not have been possible to deliver value at this speed.

我們正在從具有完全不同登入方法的七個應用程式過渡到具有單一登入方法的兩個應用程式：Super App 和 Ion。如果我們在沒有完成所有現代化、集中資料管理和雲端中運行的所有內容的情況下嘗試做到這一點，就不可能以這種速度交付價值。

The most important thing here is that there will be 15 million clients who now have a single-product experience with Itaú Unibanco and who will have a full-banking experience going forward. That is, while they did not have a full-banking experience before, now they will.

最重要的是，現在將有 1500 萬客戶擁有 Itaú Unibanco 的單一產品體驗，並且未來將擁有完整的銀行體驗。也就是說，雖然他們以前沒有完整的銀行經驗，但現在他們會了。

To bring some more concrete data, by the end of October we had already migrated 2 million clients, exceeding the original plan. We expect to migrate 5 million clients by the end of the year. This is not a goal, it is an objective, because we will always put our clients' experiences first.

更具體的數據是，到10月底我們已經遷移了200萬個客戶端，超出了原計劃。我們預計到今年底將遷移 500 萬個客戶。這不是一個目標，而是一個目的，因為我們總是將客戶的體驗放在第一位。

If there is any risk that the transition will not be done well or that the experience will not be good for the client, we will slow down the pace so that we can do it with high quality. But the fact is that we have been managing to achieve both things, speed and quality, based on everything I mentioned earlier. We expect to complete this migration next year and reach the transition for 15 million clients.

如果有過渡不好或給客戶帶來不好體驗的風險，我們會放慢節奏，以便高品質地完成。但事實是，基於我之前提到的一切，我們一直在設法實現速度和品質兩方面的目標。我們預計明年將完成此遷移，並為 1500 萬客戶實現過渡。

In practice, this means that in addition to having a full-banking offer, we are able to improve all our clients' journeys. The login journey time dropped by 54%, and the PIX journey improved the transaction time by 16%.

實際上，這意味著除了提供全面的銀行服務之外，我們還能夠改善所有客戶的旅程。登入旅程時間下降了 54%，PIX 旅程將交易時間縮短了 16%。

We are managing to do this with a unified, consolidated methodology and a unified design language within the bank so that the client experience, in terms of its look and feel, remains exactly the same for all of the organization's businesses.

我們設法在銀行內部採用統一、綜合的方法和統一的設計語言來實現這一目標，從而使組織所有業務的客戶體驗在外觀和感覺方面保持完全相同。

In this way, we have managed to deliver 33 new products this year alone, developed with the speed I mentioned earlier. This is always part of a journey, always with a view to solving a client's problem. This places us at another speed and another capacity to compete. Talking about capital, the news is super positive.

這樣，我們光是今年就推出了33個新產品，按照我前面提到的開發速度。這始終是旅程的一部分，始終著眼於解決客戶的問題。這使我們處於另一種速度和另一種競爭能力。談到資本，這個消息非常正面。

We went from a Common Equity Tier 1 of 13.1%, and grew with results in 50 basis points, already adjusted for the dividends, reaching 13.7%. This is a very important accumulation of capital. I have no doubt that the first question will be about dividends.

我們的普通股一級資本率為 13.1%，業績成長了 50 個基點（已針對股利進行調整），達到 13.7%。這是非常重要的資本累積。我毫不懷疑第一個問題將與股息有關。

We will talk about that in a moment, but this shows our ability to create value for shareholders. Naturally, I have talked a lot about our clients and the business, but in the end it all translates into the capital ratio of the organization. So this is super positive news for capital too.

我們稍後會討論這個，但這表明我們有能力為股東創造價值。當然，我談論了很多關於我們的客戶和業務的內容，但最終這一切都轉化為組織的資本比率。所以這對資本來說也是超級利好消息。

For us, ESG has three pillars. We have the pillars of Sustainable Finance, Diversity and Development, and Climate Transition. Let's focus here on Sustainable Finance. You may remember that at the end of 2019, we made a public commitment to reach BRL400 billion in structuring capital markets operations and individual loans in sectors with a positive impact on the economy and society.

對我們來說，ESG 有三大支柱。我們的支柱是永續金融、多元化與發展以及氣候轉型。讓我們專注於永續金融。大家可能還記得，2019年底，我們公開承諾將在對經濟和社會產生積極影響的行業構建資本市場運營和個人貸款方面達到4000億雷亞爾。

The good news is that we met that goal a year and a half early. The goal was to end 2025 with BRL400 billion and we surpassed that in June this year. So, the message I wanted to bring is that, as a result of this, we have set ourselves a new goal that is in line with what we believe can actually generate an impact on society, the country, and the economy.

好消息是我們提前一年半實現了這個目標。我們的目標是到 2025 年底實現 4,000 億雷亞爾的目標，我們在今年 6 月超越了這一目標。因此，我想傳達的訊息是，因此，我們為自己設定了一個新的目標，符合我們認為實際上可以對社會、國家和經濟產生影響的目標。

We are now proposing not only to make the BRL400 billion already achieved, but to expand this goal to reach BRL1 trillion by the end of 2030. Therefore, in a decade, we aim to be able to structure and develop operations that will sum BRL1 trillion in total in the various sectors and result in activities with a positive impact on society and the economy. We are very excited about this new challenge and are already working hard to make it happen.

我們現在提議不僅要實現已經實現的 4,000 億雷亞爾，還要擴大這一目標，到 2030 年底達到 1 兆雷亞爾。因此，我們的目標是在十年內能夠在各個部門建立和發展總計達 1 兆雷亞爾的業務，並開展對社會和經濟產生積極影響的活動。我們對這項新挑戰感到非常興奮，並且已經在努力實現這一目標。

Finally, I will talk about the consolidated guidance that was released at the beginning of the year, which also provides a view on a comparable basis, which excludes the effect of the sale of Itau Argentina that impacted seven months of 2023. When we look at the current guidance, we are maintaining all expectations, except for total credit portfolio growth. I would like to give you some more details about this change.

最後，我要談談今年年初發布的綜合指引，該指引也提供了可比較基礎上的觀點，其中排除了出售 Itau Argentina 影響 2023 年 7 個月的影響。當我們審視目前的指引時，我們維持除信貸投資組合總額成長之外的所有預期。我想向您提供有關此更改的更多詳細資訊。

You may recall that, after the guidance was released and after the first quarter results, there were many doubts as to whether we would be able to achieve the guidance for growth in the credit portfolio. Some analysts thought that we could fall below the guidance lower range and in that first quarter earnings presentation, I reinforced to you that we would indeed deliver that credit portfolio growth, as the biggest hurdle to that was the de-risking process of the high-risk portfolio that we were conducting. However, we expected to finish this process in the third quarter, as indeed it happened.

大家可能還記得，指引發布後和第一季業績公佈後，對於我們是否能夠實現信貸組合成長指引存在著許多疑問。一些分析師認為，我們可能會跌破指導下限，在第一季的收益報告中，我向大家強調，我們確實會實現信貸投資組合的成長，因為實現這一目標的最大障礙是高風險的去風險過程。然而，我們預計將在第三季完成這一過程，事實也確實如此。

So, when we look at the current scenario, we can see growth in the credit portfolio with a guidance between 9.5% and 12.5%. I would like to make an additional comment on this. If we look at the original 2024 guidance and exclude these changes from the FX rate variations, we would probably reach the end of the year with a credit portfolio growth closer to the guidance upper range.

因此，當我們審視當前情況時，我們可以看到信貸投資組合的成長指引值在 9.5% 至 12.5% 之間。我想對此補充一點意見。如果我們查看最初的 2024 年指引並將這些變更從外匯匯率變更中排除，我們可能會在年底時信貸投資組合成長接近指導上限。

That is what we were monitoring based on the growth rate that I mentioned to you just now. What is new is that the Brazilian Real is not weaking against the US dollar alone, but also against several currencies such as the Chilean peso, the Colombian peso, and others.

這就是我們剛才根據成長率進行監測的情況。新鮮的是，巴西雷亞爾不僅兌美元走弱，還兌智利比索、哥倫比亞比索等多種貨幣走弱。

There are several other currencies that have an impact on the loan portfolio, both a positive and negative one. So, when we only look at this implicit FX rate effect on the various currencies, we see the need to adjust the guidance to a range of between 9.5% and 12.5%, which means that what was previously the top of the range is now the bottom of the guidance.

還有其他幾種貨幣會對貸款組合產生正面和負面的影響。因此，當我們只考慮這種隱性匯率對各種貨幣的影響時，我們認為需要將指導調整到 9.5% 至 12.5% 之間的範圍，這意味著以前的範圍頂部現在是指南的底部。

The positive news is that, very importantly, we have been able to secure a good-quality loan portfolio and generate value, at the right price, with adequate profitability, generating capital for the organization, with the correct mix, and at the same time expanding our capital base. Therefore, we made this adjustment to the guidance as a result of this specific FX rate volatility event.

正面的消息是，非常重要的是，我們已經能夠獲得優質的貸款組合，並以合適的價格創造價值，具有足夠的盈利能力，透過正確的組合為組織創造資本，同時擴大我們的資本基礎。因此，由於這特定的匯率波動事件，我們對指引進行了調整。

With that, I finish the earnings presentation with the message that we had a very strong, solid, positive quarter with many opportunities. As usual, we have a lot of work ahead of us. Now I will join Renato so we can start our Q&A session to answer your questions. I would like to thank you once again for your time and attention. We will be back soon.

至此，我在財報的結尾傳達了這樣的訊息：我們度過了一個非常強勁、穩健、積極的季度，並且有很多機會。像往常一樣，我們還有很多工作要做。現在我將加入雷納托，以便我們可以開始問答環節來回答您的問題。我想再次感謝您的時間和關注。我們很快就會回來。

Thank you very much, Milton. It was a very interesting presentation. Besides the regulatory changes in technology, we are talking about ESG strategy. So now let's start with a Q&A session. (Event Instructions)

非常感謝你，米爾頓。這是一個非常有趣的演講。除了技術方面的監管變化之外，我們正在談論ESG策略。現在讓我們從問答環節開始。（活動須知）

Eric Ito, Bradesco.

艾瑞克‧伊藤，布拉德斯科。

Thank you. Good morning, Milton, Renato. Congratulations on the results. Milton, I think that my first question is going to be about capital and dividends. The bank is running with a CET I of 3.7%, much higher than the minimum of 12 and a half of dividends.

謝謝。早安，米爾頓，雷納托。祝賀結果。米爾頓，我認為我的第一個問題是關於資本和股息。該銀行的 CET I 為 3.7%，遠高於 12 倍半股息的最低要求。

So the result is robust incremental for the fourth-quarter and there's going to be an impact of 12, 6, 1 that should be impacting the index next year.

因此，第四季度的結果是強勁的增量，並將產生 12、6、1 的影響，這應該會影響明年的指數。

So I wanted to understand from you an update actually, if we can expect that the extraordinary dividend is going to get your CET I to close to the internal level of 12.5 in the last quarter or do you see any other capital needs that will leave some buffer for the higher level?

因此，我想了解您的最新情況，我們是否可以預期，特別股息將使您的 CET I 在上個季度接近 12.5 的內部水平，或者您是否看到任何其他資本需求，這將留下一些為更高級別提供緩衝？

Well, thank you for the question. Thank you, Eric. Well, the term of capital and dividends, very important to discuss since we're discussing capital. Over the last 12 months, we closed the sales of our participation at XP. So today we don't have any shares.

嗯，謝謝你的提問。謝謝你，埃里克。嗯，資本和股息這個術語非常重要，因為我們正在討論資本。在過去 12 個月裡，我們完成了 XP 參與的銷售。所以今天我們沒有任何股份。

We've done the communication at the market saying that there was 1.54% in Class B shares. And in that time, we converted that to Class A shares and we sold them 100%. So it was an important information to level the playing field.

我們在市場上做了溝通，說B類股有1.54%。當時，我們將其轉換為 A 類股票，並 100% 出售。因此，這是公平競爭環境的重要訊息。

So talking about capital, I think it's important, it's positive for the capital and the dividends. First, we have the capacity to roll the bank with quality, creating value and generating capital. That capital has been more than enough for the finance of the expansion of the portfolios, the credit of the bank and all the activities therein. So what do we have today and what do we have 12 months ago when we did the extraordinary dividends?

所以談到資本，我認為這很重要，這對資本和股息都是正面的。首先，我們有能力高品質地開展銀行業務，創造價值並產生資本。這些資本足以為投資組合擴張、銀行信貸及其所有活動提供資金。那麼，我們今天擁有什麼，以及 12 個月前我們發放特別股息時擁有什麼？

Well, last year we had a larger capital base this year in comparison to last year and we have less regulatory uncertainties than last year. What were the uncertainties? Basileia III operational risk. We are in a phase in now, which is 25 basis per year for four years.

嗯，去年我們的資本基礎比去年更大，而且監管方面的不確定性比去年更少。有哪些不確定因素？巴西利亞 III 操作風險。我們現在正處於一個階段，四年內每年 25 個基點。

We have an increment in the part of Basileia Ponder for the credit risk. So there is a marginal increase close to 25 basis points. So both 49 basis points, 50 basis points of capital consumption [499] which was a theme for attention and the DTAs. No impact whatsoever in the index of capital.

我們對Basileia Ponder 的信用風險部分進行了增量。因此，邊際漲幅接近 25 個基點。因此，資本消耗 49 個基點、50 個基點 [499] 都是關注的主題，也是 DTA 的主題。對資本指數沒有任何影響。

FRTB, the fundamental review of the trading book, also no impact should be generated on a capital deal on their public consultation, the sole basis that we understand that as a conglomerate we can go through smooth sailing without capital impact. The shares that I just commented that could generate a swing in the assets patrimony of the bank are not in the assets of the bank anymore. So we have less uncertainties and a capital base that is larger.

FRTB，對交易帳簿的基本審查，也不應該對他們的公眾諮詢產生資本交易的影響，這是我們理解作為一家集團公司可以在沒有資本影響的情況下順利航行的唯一依據。我剛才評論的可能導致銀行資產波動的股票不再屬於銀行資產。因此，我們的不確定性更少，資本基礎更大。

So following up on the policy that we just published, my expectation is that we're going to have capital in capital index dividend and capital index distributed that is higher than the extraordinary dividend of last year. But where we're going to calibrate the set one is to have the bank well capitalized.

因此，根據我們剛發布的政策，我的預期是，我們的資本指數股利和分配的資本指數將高於去年的特別股利。但我們要調整的目標是讓銀行擁有充足的資本。

Remember that the appetite of the board is 11.5, but it's a minimum of capital index. So it doesn't determine the board what should be the capital index of the organization, but what is the minimum?

請記住，董事會的意願是 11.5，但這是資本指數的最低值。因此，它並不能確定董事會該組織的資本指數應該是多少，但最低限度是多少？

Of course, when you're working with a minimum, you want to have a buffer for uncertainties, volatility, decision-making process, capacity of growth, investing capital allocation. So since we manage to allocate the capital adequately and throughout the cycles, we're very comfortable with the capital level, but we understand that it's not in our best interest to retain the capital more than necessary.

當然，當您使用最低限度時，您希望對不確定性、波動性、決策過程、成長能力、投資資本配置有緩衝。因此，由於我們設法在整個週期中充分分配資本，因此我們對資本水準非常滿意，但我們明白，保留超過必要的資本並不符合我們的最佳利益。

The best information that I can provide to you is that the extraordinary dividends of this year is the same level of the capital index that we distributed 0.9 last year, that would be nominally dividend, the dividend would be nominally larger than last year. The expectation is that we can distribute more capital index and nominally more thereafter.

我可以提供給你的最好資訊是，今年的特別股息與我們去年派發的資本指數0.9的水平相同，這將是名義上的股息，名義上的股息將比去年更大。預期我們可以分配更多的資本指數，之後名目也可以分配更多。

So we should close that at the beginning of the year when we have more clarity on the projection scenario. And me on the next earnings call, I'm going to talk about the guidance, results of the fourth quarter and I'm going to announce the extraordinary dividend. But you can expect a larger dividend than what was paid and declared last year.

因此，當我們對預測場景有了更清晰的了解時，我們應該在年初結束這項計劃。在下一次財報電話會議上，我將談論第四季度的指導和業績，並將宣布特別股息。但您可以預期比去年支付和宣布的股息更高。

Thank you, Milton. If you allow me, there is a doubt from the market in regards to our call of the AT1. Is there going to be any impact in the decision of paying dividends?

謝謝你，米爾頓。如果您允許的話，市場對我們對 AT1 的稱呼有疑問。是否會對支付股利的決定產生影響？

This is a great question. The answer is no. No impact in the policy of distribution of dividends of the bank. We've been working with an AT1 close to a one-and-half, given the set one level of the bank, we got to 13.7% in this quarter. This shows that the bank has a core equity that is very strong.

這是一個很好的問題。答案是否定的。對銀行股利分配政策不產生影響。我們一直在使用接近一倍半的 AT1，考慮到銀行設定的一級水平，本季我們達到了 13.7%。這顯示該銀行擁有非常雄厚的核心股權。

It doesn't mean that we can work with an AT1 level lower. We're always going to look at economically at the cost of the debt. We've done a liability management that is very important of those debt.

這並不意味著我們可以使用較低的 AT1 等級。我們總是會從經濟角度考慮債務成本。我們對這些債務進行了非常重要的負債管理。

We have the call of the AT1, so that was published yesterday that AT1 of BRL1 billion (technical difficulty) BRL3.8 billion subordinate perpetual which are very competitive at competitive prices.

我們收到了AT1的號召，所以昨天發布了AT1的10億雷亞爾（技術難度）38億雷亞爾的次級永續合約，價格非常有競爭力。

So we've done that management, active management of the AT1. But all the decision making on the payment of the dividend is going to be restricted to the base of CET I, which is much higher than the comfort that we have and the limits that are approved by the board. So even though the AT1 is going to be lower than 1.5, it's going to be 140. It's not going to impact distribution policy for the dividends.

所以我們對 AT1 進行了管理、主動管理。但所有關於支付股利的決策都將僅限於 CET I 的基礎，這遠高於我們所擁有的舒適度和董事會批准的限制。因此，儘管 AT1 將低於 1.5，但它仍將是 140。這不會影響股利分配政策。

Daniel Vaz, Safra Bank.

丹尼爾·瓦茲，薩夫拉銀行。

Good morning, Renato, Milton, congratulations on the results. Thank you for the opportunity. I wanted to focus on the portfolio. You've displayed great growth. Having said that, the spread before the cost of the risk is a bit lower than year-on-year. But that spread adjusted to the risk is doing well. So if you can comment on the lines that the bank has focused the growth on?

早安，雷納托、米爾頓，祝賀結果。謝謝你給我這個機會。我想專注於投資組合。你已經表現出巨大的成長。話雖如此，風險成本前的利差較去年同期略低。但根據風險調整後的利差表現良好。那麼您能否評論一下銀行重點關注的成長方向？

We've seen your competitor that is directing a lot of effort in the high income. I think that with collateral investment, FTPS, also talking about [indiscernible] the small businesses. So what are the lines that have the best return for the growth and the strong rhythm that the bank is going to focus its efforts?

我們看到你的競爭對手在高收入方面投入了大量精力。我認為，透過抵押投資、FTPS，也談論[音訊不清楚]小型企業。那麼哪些條線是成長回報最好、節奏較強的銀行重點發力的業務呢？

Thank you, Daniel. This is an important question and we have to clarify a few issues. Our management is based on NIN adjusted to the risk. That's how it's always been throughout the years. Generating higher NINs and growing in a relevant way in the short term generates a very gross NIN that is important. When you focus on a clean natural person fund with the long term, the cost of credit comes and then you have a line adjusted to the risk with lower thresholds.

謝謝你，丹尼爾。這是一個重要的問題，我們必須澄清幾個問題。我們的管理是基於根據風險進行調整的 NIN。多年來一直如此。產生更高的 NIN 並在短期內以相關方式成長會產生非常重要的總 NIN。當您長期關注乾淨的自然人基金時，信貸成本就會隨之而來，然後您就會根據較低門檻的風險調整額度。

So if you look at our records, you've seen that we have consistently expanded our line adjusted to the risk which shows a growth of dynamics that is growing with quality in all the segments of the bank. And because we are in a universal bank with a big portfolio in all segments, it depends on where that quarter has been more important. We've generated growth in all the segments that in the mix. If I'm growing more at wholesale in Latin America, it affects the NIN growth and you have to adjust it for risk as well.

因此，如果您查看我們的記錄，您會發現我們不斷擴大我們的業務範圍並根據風險進行調整，這表明銀行所有部門的活力隨著品質的增長而增長。因為我們是一家全能銀行，在所有細分市場都有大量投資組合，所以這取決於該季度的哪個季度更重要。我們在所有細分市場中都實現了成長。如果我在拉丁美洲的批發量增加，就會影響 NIN 的成長，你也必須根據風險進行調整。

So if you look -- it's very important to have that. Well, it's the overall income that generates the income and that impacts the NIN of the bank. And if you look at this quarter, even though the portfolio of the wholesale has grown just 0.7 at the end, the overall balance is above 5%. In the Latin American portfolio, we've seen a balance growing 8.2 for a portfolio that grew 1.2% in a quarter.

所以如果你看的話——擁有這一點非常重要。是整體收入產生收入並影響銀行的 NIN。如果你看一下本季度，儘管批發投資組合最終僅增長了 0.7，但總體餘額仍高於 5%。在拉丁美洲投資組合中，我們看到投資組合的餘額增加了 8.2，而投資組合在一個季度增加了 1.2%。

So when you look at the portfolio of natural persons, which is a portfolio that grows 2.5% and the small SMEs that is growing close to 4.1, we had a balance of 3.3 on average, which shows that on the margin, the average balance is the one that is generating the impact on the NIN, the gross and adjusted to the risk.

因此，當您查看自然人的投資組合時，該投資組合增長了 2.5％，而小型中小企業的增長接近 4.1％，我們的平均餘額為 3.3，這表明從邊際角度來看，平均餘額為對NIN 產生影響的一項，即總的和根據風險進行調整的。

If you look at Brazil, the NIN growth is stable. So it shows that we've been growing with quality. A few messages that are important here. First, all the de-risking that we've done all throughout the portfolio, throughout the years we've finished this process is never-ending. De-risking is part of the activity, but in a relevant way in the portfolio that we understood that is not resilient in cycles that are longer.

如果你看看巴西，NIN 成長穩定。這表明我們一直在高品質發展。這裡有一些重要的消息。首先，多年來我們在整個投資組合中所做的所有去風險工作都是永無止境的。去風險是該活動的一部分，但以我們了解的投資組合的相關方式，在較長的周期中沒有彈性。

The management of the portfolio, we could do this for this process in this quarter, in the third quarter. So what you're seeing now is all the inertia of the ever-growing high income that we are growing two digits in the all segments.

投資組合的管理，我們可以在本季、第三季完成此流程。所以你現在看到的是不斷增長的高收入的慣性，我們在所有領域都以兩位數的速度成長。

So the first message is we never stopped growing. We continue to grow with quality in resilient clients in longer cycles. So all the portfolio is working in the retail and wholesale. We've grown SMEs with good profitability and good returns.

所以第一個訊息是我們從未停止成長。我們在更長的周期內繼續在有彈性的客戶中實現高品質成長。所以所有的投資組合都在零售和批發領域運作。我們培育的中小企業具有良好的獲利能力和良好的回報。

In big companies, we have a portfolio that is more volatile. This quarter we had the effect of the retail that we dropped the credit at the end of the quarter. But we are growing, above two digits in big companies. And why? Because we saw an opportunity of doing assets with quality with adequate returns. Once again, looking at the long-term cycle and the capital markets that is very active.

在大公司中，我們的投資組合波動性較大。本季我們受到零售業的影響，我們在季度末放棄了信貸。但我們正在成長，大公司的成長率超過兩位數。為什麼？因為我們看到了做優質資產並獲得足夠回報的機會。再次來看長期週期和非常活躍的資本市場。

So the buffer for the big companies is the capital market. When you have capital markets that are very active, we are probably going to see credit portfolios that are lighter in big companies is, well, if you are efficient better for our clients to finance through the capital market and then we will direct and we have a relevant share of origination and distribution that higher than our fair share of credits in this segment.

所以大公司的緩衝就是資本市場。當資本市場非常活躍時，我們可能會看到大公司的信貸投資組合較輕，那麼，如果我們的客戶透過資本市場融資的效率更高，那麼我們將進行指導，我們有發起和分發的相關份額高於我們在該細分市場中的公平份額。

So, it shows the importance of having this capacity of developing and structuring and distributing operations for the capital market. So looking up ahead, I can see that the portfolios are going to continue to grow. Some portfolios that just started to work out, well, we did the risk industry, stronger credit cards. We see -- we should see expansion, personal credit expansion with quality. That's what we've seen.

因此，它顯示了擁有這種為資本市場開發、建構和分配業務的能力的重要性。因此，展望未來，我可以看到投資組合將繼續成長。一些剛開始發揮作用的投資組合，我們做了風險產業、更強大的信用卡。我們看到－我們應該看到擴張，個人信用擴張的品質。這就是我們所看到的。

SMEs, we continue to grow at an adequate growth, at an adequate rate. So there is no portfolio that is growing more or less. We see growth in all segments. But a relevant point here. The issue of the return of capital that is allocated is the mantra of the bank. So there is no hypothesis that we're going to grow in a portfolio without having the right price and the adequate return.

中小企業，我們繼續以適當的速度成長。因此，不存在或多或少成長的投資組合。我們看到所有細分市場都在成長。但這裡有一個相關的觀點。分配資本的返還問題是銀行的口頭禪。因此，如果沒有合適的價格和足夠的回報，我們就不能假設我們的投資組合會成長。

So when we realize the scenario of competition where the price and return is not necessarily the main driver, then we are very careful when we choose our operations and taking the decisions of credit. Well, growing portfolio without doing adequate price and where the return on capital is always easier. We're not going to forego growing with quality and good profitability. And I think the NIN shows how we've done that and the returns on capital as well.

因此，當我們意識到價格和回報不一定是主要驅動因素的競爭場景時，我們在選擇業務和做出信用決策時就會非常謹慎。好吧，在沒有做出足夠價格的情況下增加投資組合，而資本回報總是更容易。我們不會放棄高品質和良好獲利能力的成長。我認為 NIN 展示了我們是如何做到這一點的以及資本回報率。

So this is the mantra and we will not let it go. We are going to do the growth with profitability and quality. It's not positive spread. Its return on allocated capital that remunerates the cost of capital looking at the client vision -- client centric vision. Very important point.

所以這是口頭禪，我們不會放過它。我們將以盈利能力和品質來實現增長。這不是正面的傳播。它的分配資本回報率根據客戶願景（以客戶為中心的願景）來補償資本成本。非常重要的一點。

Renato Meloni, Autonomous.

雷納托·梅洛尼，自治。

Good morning. Congratulations on the results. Thank you for the opportunity. I need to go back to the issue of guidance. You commented during the call on the exchange rate here. Was it just the exchange rate influence or is there a potential more appetite for risk looking up ahead?

早安.祝賀結果。謝謝你給我這個機會。我需要回到指導問題。您在電話會議期間對匯率發表了評論。這只是匯率的影響還是展望未來潛在的風險偏好較大？

And then if you can reconcile that with the maintenance of the guidance of growth of financial margins? Once again, this is an issue of the exchange rate or this is an expectation of compression of NIN?

然後，您是否可以將其與維持財務利潤率成長的指導相協調？再說一遍，這是匯率問題還是NIN壓縮的預期？

Thank you, Renato. Thank you for the question. First of all, this question is important. If it wasn't for the exchange rate, we would be very close to the high end of the guidance with the growth of the portfolio. When we did the guidance at the beginning of the year, first quarter, we still had the process that was very intense of the reduction of the risk in the natural person's portfolio.

謝謝你，雷納托。謝謝你的提問。首先，這個問題很重要。如果不是因為匯率，隨著投資組合的成長，我們將非常接近指導的高端。當我們在年初第一季進行指導時，我們仍然有一個非常激烈的降低自然人投資組合風險的過程。

So we saw a portfolio that didn't grow. And the feeling was that mathematically we couldn't fulfill even the lower threshold of the guidance of the beginning of the year. And I reinforced that we would because there was a portfolio that was very relevant, that was growing, but it was masked, so to speak, because of the reduction in the portfolio.

所以我們看到了一個沒有成長的投資組合。感覺是，從數學上講，我們甚至無法實現年初指導的下限。我強調說，我們會這樣做，因為有一個非常相關的投資組合，它正在成長，但可以說，由於投資組合的減少，它被掩蓋了。

When we finish the third quarter, we can see clearly the natural persons are growing 2.5 in the quarter. SME is growing 4.1 in the quarter. So it's not that we change the appetite. I think that we are working with the appetite, the appetite for risk. It's important to highlight this is dynamic. It doesn't change, it changes every day.

當我們完成第三季時，我們可以清楚地看到該季度自然人成長率為 2.5。本季中小企業成長率為 4.1。所以不是我們改變了食慾。我認為我們正在帶著胃口、風險胃口來工作。重要的是要強調這是動態的。它不會改變，它每天都在改變。

We look at our models, the losses on the records, but more important than that is a prospective visions of the scenarios. These scenarios are volatile because of everything that we've seen happening throughout the world and here. So we are always paying attention to that.

我們查看我們的模型、記錄中的損失，但比這更重要的是對場景的前瞻性願景。由於我們所看到的世界各地和這裡發生的一切，這些情況是不穩定的。所以我們一直在關注這一點。

More important than the appetite is the competitiveness with which we take decorated decisions. Whether it is to concede, to change the policies, always taking care of the cycles, looking at the longer cycles.

比食慾更重要的是我們做出漂亮決定時的競爭力。無論是讓步，還是改變政策，總是要照顧週期，著眼於更長的周期。

So once again we never look at the growth, looking at growth in the short term that will generate margin because the margin comes at the beginning, because of the dynamic of the P&L. And we know that the cost of credit comes later. We can see what happens in the previous cycle. So the vision is growth with quality in a sustainable way. So growth that is resilient regardless of the adverse cycle. This is the first message.

因此，我們再一次從不關注成長，而是關注會產生利潤的短期成長，因為利潤是由於損益表的動態而在一開始就出現的。我們知道信貸成本是後來才出現的。我們可以看到上一個週期發生了什麼。因此，我們的願景是以可持續的方式實現高品質成長。因此，無論逆週期如何，成長都具有彈性。這是第一條訊息。

Now to answer, the representativeness at the exchange rate in all the lines of the guidance is more in the portfolio than in the margin. Since the portfolios on the foreign currency have a lower margin than the local currency, naturally, when I look portfolio with portfolio, the weight is the same.

現在回答一下，匯率在所有指導方針中的代表性更多的是在投資組合中而不是在保證金中。由於外幣投資組合的保證金低於本幣投資組合，因此當我查看投資組合與投資組合時，權重自然是相同的。

When I look at the margin, the weight of the exchange rate is lower. In lines where I have results that are proportionally much higher. And the growth of the effect of the exchange is at the end of the cycle. It shows that since the guidance shows the average portfolio, you have the mechanical effect of the exchange rate of the devaluing of the rail.

當我看保證金時，匯率的權重較低。在我得到的結果比例要高得多的行中。而兌換效果的成長則處於週期末期。它表明，由於指導顯示了平均投資組合，因此您具有鐵路貶值的匯率機械效應。

So, you are at the higher threshold of the guidance and with the devaluation of the rail, we had to -- we needed to open a new range. If you look at the range, it's the same size as the previous one, but we have last months. In the end, the reason for that is that the exchange rate is variable -- is an important variable. When we run the same exchange rate for the same lines with our P&L plus devaluing generates a positive impact in the last line, it's not material and relevant in the distribution of the lines.

因此，您處於指導的更高門檻，隨著鐵路的貶值，我們不得不 - 我們需要開設一個新的範圍。如果你看一下這個系列，它的尺寸與前一個相同，但我們有最後幾個月的產品。歸根究底，原因是匯率是可變的──是一個重要的變數。當我們對相同的行使用相同的匯率時，我們的損益加貶值會對最後一行產生正面的影響，它在行的分佈中並不重要且相關。

So, we don't have to change the ranges that are defined. The ranges that are there can absorb any effect of devaluing, but we've been working with most of them above the mid-range, which lets these lines being closer to the higher threshold than the medium point and those that are positive being higher than the medium.

因此，我們不必更改定義的範圍。那裡的範圍可以吸收貶值的任何影響，但我們一直在中間範圍之上處理大多數範圍，這使得這些線比中間點更接近更高的閾值，而那些正值則高於中間點媒介。

Thank you, Milton.

謝謝你，米爾頓。

Yuri Fernandez, JP Morgan.

尤里‧費爾南德斯，摩根大通。

Hello, everyone. IFRS very important. Congratulations on the slide. I wanted to understand, well, it's very clear, but is that related to the system? Can you comment on how do you read that? And the point that I wanted to explore was competitive advantages of Itau, because if it's neutral for you and it's not neutral for your peers, then you have capital conditions that are better.

大家好。國際財務報告準則非常重要。恭喜幻燈片。我想明白了，嗯，很清楚，但這和系統有關嗎？您能評論一下您是如何閱讀的嗎？我想探討的一點是 Itau 的競爭優勢，因為如果它對你來說是中性的，而對你的同行來說不是中性的，那麼你的資本條件就會更好。

My doubt is for '25, maybe the peers are going to have to focus on profitability and grow more with seasonality, and wouldn't that be good for Itaú? So, more industry, it's more about the industry than Itau, but I wanted to get your true sense.

我的疑問是，對於 25 年，也許同行將不得不關注盈利能力並隨著季節性增長更多，這對 Itaó 來說不是有好處嗎？所以，更多的是行業，更多的是關於行業而不是 Itau，但我想了解你的真實感受。

Well, I'm going to be very careful here because, obviously, we always try to avoid to talk about the market and every bank has their model, their policies, and the banks have published their results and they've discussed that, the doubts on the Q&A, et cetera. So, every bank is going to do their own positioning all throughout time. I can see a few points.

好吧，我在這裡要非常小心，因為顯然，我們總是盡量避免談論市場，每家銀行都有自己的模式、政策，銀行已經公佈了他們的結果，他們已經討論過這一點對問答等的質疑。因此，每家銀行都會始終進行自己的定位。我可以看出幾點。

First, the expected loss is something that we've worked for many, many years, since 2010. There's always a cost of working with the expected loss, specifically if the alternative is working with the incurred materialized losses. We thought that for sustainability of the risk and the decision-making process, the expected loss will give you more surety on the decision-making and having long-term and the recurrent loss.

首先，預期損失是我們自 2010 年以來多年來一直在研究的問題。處理預期損失總是有成本的，特別是如果替代方案是處理已發生的實際損失。我們認為，為了風險和決策過程的可持續性，預期損失將使您對決策更有把握，並避免長期和經常性損失。

This is our own decision for 10 years. We've, 14 years actually, communicated that there is a cost for the management, but we understand that this brings benefits for the capital allocation and profitability, and we think that the numbers speak for themselves.

這是我們自己10年來的決定。事實上，14 年來，我們一直在傳達管理成本是存在的，但我們知道這會為資本配置和獲利能力帶來好處，我們認為數字不言而喻。

Second aspect, very relevant. In the corporate clients, we also work with the expected loss and we've been working for many years. We always try to have a level of provision that is adequate, regardless of the results. So, our management of provisions is not of the result for the provisions.

第二個方面，非常相關。在企業客戶中，我們也與預期損失一起工作，並且我們已經工作了很多年。無論結果如何，我們始終盡力提供充足的供應水準。所以，我們對撥備的管理並不是撥備的結果。

From the provision to the result, we look at the case, we revisit all the credits every day. And the decision, first of all, is do the provision regardless of the result of the quarter. Why? Because this is an active, proactive management that shows to the market the best information that is available, and that we leave the balance without surprises. So, what we try to do is to remove the surprise event and lack of predictability.

從規定到結果，我們看案例，我們每天都會重新檢視所有的學分。首先，無論季度結果如何，都將提供撥備。為什麼？因為這是一種主動、主動的管理，可以向市場展示可用的最佳訊息，我們不會感到驚訝。因此，我們要做的就是消除意外事件和缺乏可預測性。

So, predictability for us is something very important when we do the provisioning of the balance. So, the example of Americanas is a great example of that, and I talk about Americanas because the wholesale, everybody knows the credit, the public - information is public. So when we did the provision, we published, and when we did the recovery, we reverted.

因此，當我們進行餘額配置時，可預測性對我們來說非常重要。所以，美洲的例子就是一個很好的例子，我談論美洲是因為批發，每個人都知道信用，公共資訊是公開的。因此，當我們進行規定時，我們發布了，當我們進行恢復時，我們進行了恢復。

We could have reinforced here and there, but why did we reverse the BRL500 million against the result? Because we had the balance provisioned correctly, regardless of other specific cases. If you work with a level of provision that is adequate, when you have a reversal, it's natural that that reversal will go through the results and I think that the numbers are public. Every bank has their own exposure and the level of recovery is relatively the same amongst all the banks. But again, it's up to every bank to have their own models.

我們本來可以到處加強，但為什麼我們要逆轉5億雷亞爾的結果呢？因為無論其他具體情況如何，我們都正確配置了餘額。如果你的供應量足夠，那麼當你出現逆轉時，這種逆轉自然會產生結果，我認為這些數字是公開的。每家銀行都有自己的風險敞口，所有銀行的回收水準相對相同。但同樣，每家銀行都有自己的模式。

How do you manage them? This is our way of managing about 4996. We thought that it was important to talk about it because you have a strong balance while provisioned, regardless of the level of capital. So creation of value and allocation of capital is a mantra here. And I've always, whenever they ask me, what is the differential of the organization? This is the differential. We work with capital allocation and creation of value. It's not a positive spread.

你如何管理它們？這是我們管理4996的方式。我們認為討論這個問題很重要，因為無論資本水準如何，在配置時都會有很強的餘額。因此，價值創造和資本配置是這裡的口頭禪。每當他們問我時，我總是會問，這個組織的差異是什麼？這就是差別。我們致力於資本配置和價值創造。這不是一個正面的傳播。

In all the segments of the organization, there is no decision that we make of investment, credits given operations. So, we always take capital in consideration. So, looking at management, looking at impact, whether if it's the return on the capital that is allocated, in our opinion, if you don't look at that, it's not adequate for the risk management.

在組織的所有部門中，我們沒有對投資、信貸和營運做出任何決定。所以，我們總是考慮資本。因此，看看管理，看看影響，無論是分配的資本回報率，我們認為，如果你不考慮這一點，那麼風險管理就不夠。

And we've done that risk management. So, it depends on the level of capital. The return on capital has to be as relevant in management as if we are running with a capital index that is below the appetite.

我們已經完成了風險管理。所以，這取決於資本水準。資本報酬率必須與管理密切相關，就好像我們的資本指數低於我們的胃口一樣。

So, we are at 13.7, we do not forego making decisions to return on capital. When we have access of capital, it's not that we're going to destroy the value of operations. So, this is a relevant message. So, rationality is always good for everyone.

因此，我們的利率是 13.7，我們不會放棄做出資本報酬率的決定。當我們獲得資本時，並不是說我們會破壞營運的價值。所以，這是一則相關訊息。所以，理性總是對每個人都有好處。

And rationality, being rational, is looking at a system that grows in a ordained, in a correct return and correct organization. The risk is when you do that is that you bring operations for developments that are not accretives for the ROI, they don't create value for the shareholders, and for the organization, they do not allow you to expand your capital index.

理性，即理性，是指一個在註定的、正確的回報和正確的組織中成長的系統。這樣做的風險在於，您帶來的開發營運不會增加投資報酬率，它們不會為股東和組織創造價值，它們不允許您擴大資本指數。

And therefore, they compromise your future capacity of growth. It's simple as that. This is the mechanics and this is the way that we do the piloting in the bank. So, every bank will publish their own. Of course, being rational is the word, but we've always defended that to have a rational market, correct application of capital competition is healthy.

因此，它們會損害你未來的成長能力。就這麼簡單。這就是機制，這就是我們在銀行進行試點的方式。因此，每家銀行都會發布自己的。當然，理性是一個詞，但我們一直認為，要擁有一個理性的市場，正確運用資本競爭才是健康的。

There are various competitors, very competent, capable of developing their business models. But if we are rational from the standpoint of capital allocation, it's going to be good for everyone. A healthy system that grows with quality, generating value for the clients and shareholders.

有各種各樣的競爭對手，他們非常有能力，有能力開發自己的商業模式。但如果我們從資本配置的角度來看是理性的，這對每個人都有好處。一個健康的系統，隨著品質的成長，為客戶和股東創造價值。

Thiago Batista, UBS.

蒂亞戈·巴蒂斯塔，瑞銀集團。

Hi. Thank you, Milton. So, congratulations on the result and on the slide. I think that it's going to be great, very explanatory. When we look at credit card, when we look at that business 6.5 quarter on quarter, so the losses on the quarters on COVID, that was very close to 2015.

你好。謝謝你，米爾頓。所以，祝賀結果和幻燈片。我認為這會很棒，非常有解釋性。當我們看信用卡時，當我們看該業務季度環比為 6.5 時，因此新冠疫情導致的季度損失與 2015 年非常接近。

My question is, have you done the adjustment, the change of mix that you're doing? Do you think that it went through the point or no? There is -- it's just a quick follow-up about the impact of the select rate. Well, before '25, there is going to be a change in threshold.

我的問題是，你所做的調整、混合的改變了嗎？你認為它是否通過了重點？這只是關於選擇率影響的快速跟進。好吧，在 25 年前，門檻將會改變。

Okay. Thank you, Thiago. Good to see you. Thank you for the questions. Credit card was a portfolio that we've done the biggest adjustment of risk. And we've talked about that, the market where we're capturing the open ocean clients where you have less records and then over-offering of credit cards generated a commitment of income for the families and the product of credit card.

好的。謝謝你，蒂亞戈。很高興見到你。謝謝你的提問。信用卡是我們風險調整最大的一個投資組合。我們已經討論過這一點，我們正在捕捉遠洋客戶的市場，那裡的記錄較少，然後過度提供信用卡為家庭和信用卡產品帶來了收入承諾。

So our decision was to do an important reduction. When we look at the financial system in Brazil, we see the delay of showing the worsening and we are improving six consecutive quarters, our delays over 90 days.

所以我們的決定是進行一次重要的削減。當我們觀察巴西的金融體系時，我們看到惡化的延遲，而我們連續六個季度正在改善，延遲超過 90 天。

So we improved before the market and we continue to improve the market got worse. So, it shows that in practice, that all the risking that we've done was adequate in clients and operations that do not generate value. The issue of value creation is a mantra here.

因此，我們在市場出現之前就有所改善，並且在市場變得更糟時我們繼續改善。因此，它表明，在實踐中，我們所做的所有風險對於不產生價值的客戶和營運都是足夠的。價值創造問題是這裡的一個口頭禪。

The spread is positive, okay, but the ROI is below the cost of capital. In clients where the capacity of extracting value, the capacity of generating other businesses is reduced in those monoliner clients where you just have the credit card, the only product of relationship with the client. But here, there is a series of information that is relevant.

利差是正數，好吧，但投資報酬率低於資本成本。在那些具有提取價值能力的客戶中，在那些只有信用卡（與客戶關係的唯一產品）的單一客戶中，產生其他業務的能力會降低。但在這裡，有一系列相關的資訊。

First, we understand that the chances of the credit card is very important for the relationships, frequency, engagement of these clients. So, in all those segments where we have a relationship that transcends the product, we've managed to grow 20% invoicing year on year, much higher than the market has grown, which shows a value proposition that is adequate, which shows a high level of engagement and the clients that are growing at the base. So a growth of the base is always important.

首先，我們知道信用卡的機會對這些顧客的關係、頻率和參與度非常重要。因此，在我們擁有超越產品的關係的所有細分市場中，我們的發票同比增長了 20%，遠高於市場增長，這表明了一個足夠的價值主張，這表明了我們的高價值主張。程度以及基地不斷成長的客戶。因此，基礎的成長始終很重要。

Second important information, which is relevant for your question, is about the appetite. I think that we are now going through the biggest migration of apps in the history of the bank, where we are migrating approximately 15 million clients that were primarily in apps of credit cards or in IT going to the super app. We delivered 2 million clients on the new platform. We should, at the end of the year, migrate 5 million and at the end of next year, complete the 15 million.

與您的問題相關的第二個重要資訊是關於食慾。我認為我們現在正在經歷銀行歷史上最大規模的應用程式遷移，我們正在將大約 1500 萬個主要使用信用卡或 IT 應用程式的客戶遷移到超級應用程式。我們在新平台上交付了 200 萬客戶。年底遷移500萬人，明年年底要完成1,500萬人。

This is very relevant. Why? Because we start to have a relationship with the client that goes beyond the product credit card. We see an offering for the client that is bank. We have the capacity of offering for the client many other products that are beyond the credit card. And all of that is done within the super app in a very simple, adequate and with a hyper personalization that is very important.

這是非常相關的。為什麼？因為我們開始與客戶建立超越產品信用卡的關係。我們看到為銀行客戶提供的服務。我們有能力為客戶提供信用卡以外的許多其他產品。所有這一切都是在超級應用程式中完成的，非常簡單、充分，並且具有非常重要的超個人化功能。

So understanding the need of every client, if you are a client that is more transactor, how you're going to experience the super app, if you take credit and you need other products, if you're an investor. So we can, with the data of the market and with information here and available, we can understand and service our clients in a more holistic way. This is very relevant.

因此，了解每個客戶的需求，如果您是一個更多的交易者客戶，您將如何體驗超級應用程序，如果您接受信貸並且需要其他產品，如果您是投資者。因此，我們可以利用市場數據和現有信息，以更全面的方式了解和服務我們的客戶。這是非常相關的。

Second, with our capacity of -- well, we've discussed that slide that I just presented. We have the capacity of delivering new products and new solutions. So, the super app today is what we have the best in the monoliner app and the credit card. So, we start to have it in the super app and those that were in the mono app, they start to have access to all the other products.

其次，我們已經討論了我剛才展示的幻燈片。我們有能力提供新產品和新解決方案。所以，今天的超級應用程式是我們在單線應用程式和信用卡中最好的。因此，我們開始在超級應用程式中使用它，而那些在單一應用程式中的應用程序，他們開始可以存取所有其他產品。

This is a relevant change in the way that we deliver value for our clients. So when we talk about the PIX credit within the journey, all of those are done within the chassis of the credit card. They are a new transactional way for the clients.

這是我們為客戶提供價值的方式的一個相關變化。因此，當我們談論旅程中的 PIX 積分時，所有這些都是在信用卡的框架中完成的。對客戶來說，它們是一種新的交易方式。

Our expectation is that once we finish those migrations is to increase the level of engagement and relationship with these clients, looking at being the main one. This is the name of the game and this is what we focus. Credit card will be taken into consideration less as a product as we look at as acquirance.

我們的期望是，一旦完成這些遷移，我們就會提高與這些客戶的互動和關係水平，並成為主要客戶。這是遊戲的名稱，也是我們關注的焦點。信用卡將不再被視為一種產品，而是被視為獲取。

We look at less as acquirance as a product, but it's a part of a solution of a complete offering for the clients. We talk about the numbers of the credit card, but it's important to look at the result of the segment where credit card is relevant, where we see the completeness of the relationships that go beyond the credit card.

我們不太將購買視為產品，而是將其視為為客戶提供的完整產品解決方案的一部分。我們談論信用卡的數量，但重要的是要查看與信用卡相關的細分市場的結果，我們可以看到信用卡以外的關係的完整性。

We are comfortable, we've grown the base. We continue to believe that this is a portfolio that grows more probably next year than this year from what we expect, given that the adjust -- relevant adjustment happened in 2014. It's happened throughout the years, but we concluded in 2024. This is the first point.

我們很舒服，我們已經擴大了基礎。我們仍然認為，考慮到 2014 年發生的相關調整，該投資組合明年的成長可能性將高於我們的預期。這種情況多年來一直在發生，但我們在 2024 年結束了。這是第一點。

Second question, CELIC rate. I'm going to give you an overview. I discussed this. Interest rate high for the bank in the medium long term, not good. Lower interest rates, more economy growing, more businesses, more capital markets, less delinquency.

第二個問題，CELIC費率。我將為您提供一個概述。我討論過這個。利率高對銀行中長期來說並不是好事。更低的利率，更多的經濟成長，更多的企業，更多的資本市場，更少的拖欠。

But throughout this volatility, what are the lines that are more impacted by the CELIC rate? Working capital of the bank, so when we do the hedge of the working capital at longer deadlines, in the same way that the CELIC drops, we don't capture the immediate value.

但在整個波動過程中，哪些線路受 CELIC 利率影響較大？銀行的營運資金，因此當我們在較長期限內對營運資金進行對沖時，就像 CELIC 下降一樣，我們無法取得即時價值。

When CELIC goes up, it captures throughout time because we're going to do the hedge in longer vertices. So working capital effect, all the liability management of the organization, the strength of the bank investments and management of liabilities and higher interest rates have unnatural migration for products of treasury. Many clients leaving the multi-market in variable income and going to the fixed income.

當 CELIC 上升時，它會捕獲整個時間，因為我們將在較長的頂點中進行對沖。因此，營運資金效應、組織的所有負債管理、銀行投資和負債管理的實力以及較高的利率都會對國庫產品產生不自然的遷移。許多客戶離開可變收入的多元市場並轉向固定收入。

So, these are products that we distributed or we issue ourselves. So, it's a positive ROI. So, these are the two impacts. And the negative impact of the interest rates going up is delinquency. We see for the companies, the companies are indexed to the CDI. That's CDI plus or a little bit of a percentage of CDI depends on the client, the fixed rate.

因此，這些是我們分發或我們自己發行的產品。所以，這是一個積極的投資報酬率。所以，這是兩個影響。利率上升的負面影響是拖欠。我們看到，對於這些公司來說，這些公司都被納入 CDI 指數。這是 CDI 加上或 CDI 的一點點百分比，取決於客戶，固定費率。

So it is the increase, the decrease of the spreads for the portfolios with rates of cap. So this is for the real estate credit. It generates a negative effect. The INSS reconciled. There is a capital of interest rate. So a reduction of cap -- as the interest rate goes up, the interest rate goes up and there is no change in the cap. So, we do not produce credit for the INSS for the clients because we are capped by the interest rates.

因此，這是具有上限利率的投資組合利差的增加和減少。所以這是針對房地產信貸的。它會產生負面影響。INSS 達成了和解。有利率資本。因此，上限降低——隨著利率上升，利率上升，但上限沒有變化。因此，我們不會為客戶提供 INSS 信貸，因為我們受到利率的限制。

The work, well, with the rotative -- you have to look at the credit, the working capital and the liabilities and delinquency specifically for the segment of clients, companies, higher interest rates, pressure in a relevant way, the delinquency. So there is impact of all the natures. We have to look at the intensity of the effect and the duration of the cycle.

這項工作，嗯，輪換——你必須專門針對客戶、公司、更高的利率、相關壓力、拖欠等部分來查看信貸、營運資金、負債和拖欠情況。所以存在著所有性質的影響。我們必須看看效果的強度和週期的持續時間。

Thank you, Milton.

謝謝你，米爾頓。

Tito Labarta, Goldman Sachs.

蒂托·拉巴塔，高盛。

For the next question, we're going to switch to English as we have with us . Hello, Tito. Great to have you with us today.

對於下一個問題，我們將切換到英語。你好，蒂托。很高興今天有你和我們在一起。

Hi, Renato. Hi, Milton. Thank you for the call and taking my question. I just wanted to get your thoughts on sort of the credit cycle, right? I mean, loan growth seems to be picking up overall asset quality. You showed further improvement, provisioning coming down a little bit.

嗨，雷納托。嗨，米爾頓。感謝您的來電並回答我的問題。我只是想了解您對信貸週期的看法，對嗎？我的意思是，貸款成長似乎正在改善整體資產品質。您表現出了進一步的進步，供應量有所下降。

So I mean, everything looks healthy. But when you think of the macro, inflation is still above the target, rates higher, concerns about the economy slowing, indebtedness is still relatively high.

所以我的意思是，一切看起來都很健康。但當你想到宏觀時，通膨仍然高於目標，利率更高，對經濟放緩的擔憂，債務仍然相對較高。

How comfortable are you with continuing to grow the loan book anywhere where you're concerned about credit quality that could get worse? And then do you see room for NPLs to actually improve further from here?

如果您擔心信用品質可能會變得更糟，您是否願意繼續增加貸款規模？那麼您認為不良貸款是否還有進一步改善的空間？

Yes. Well, thank you, Tito. Good to see you. Thank you for your question. Well, let me go through this topic. As I was saying previously, our risk appetite is dynamic. And we are always looking for the perspective on interest rate, unemployment, inflation, GDP, so on and so forth.

是的。好吧，謝謝你，蒂托。很高興見到你。謝謝你的提問。好吧，讓我來討論一下這個主題。正如我之前所說，我們的風險偏好是動態的。我們一直在尋找利率、失業率、通貨膨脹、GDP 等方面的觀點。

We still have seen a positive cycle and the numbers we've been dealing with show how we've been able to deliver a good growth in our portfolio in a very healthy way with a lower and low cost of credit and low delinquency ratios and improving significantly even compared to the period before the pandemic. So this is one topic.

我們仍然看到了一個積極的循環，我們一直在處理的數字表明，我們如何能夠以非常健康的方式實現投資組合的良好增長，信貸成本越來越低，拖欠率也越來越低，並且不斷改善與大流行之前相比，甚至顯著增加。所以這是一個話題。

The second, yes, we are looking forward and see that we might have more challenges. And this, it's a live process. So we're always trying to make adjustments and making decisions looking for a prospective cycle, that says that we are right now planning the 2025.

第二，是的，我們期待並看到我們可能會遇到更多挑戰。這是一個即時過程。所以我們一直在努力做出調整並做出決定，尋找一個預期的週期，也就是說我們現在正在規劃2025年。

We don't have yet all the numbers absolutely approved internally. We are discussing the details. So I believe the beginning of the year, we'll be able to show you our guidance and talk better about our perspective in about growing the portfolio.

我們尚未獲得內部絕對批准的所有數字。我們正在討論細節。因此，我相信今年年初，我們將能夠向您展示我們的指導，並更好地討論我們對擴大投資組合的看法。

But yes, we have some attentional signs. We have to keep an eye on that. We are not going to grow without taking into consideration the prospective scenario. So we might see more and less acceleration in certain portfolios depending on the prospective scenario.

但是，是的，我們有一些值得注意的跡象。我們必須密切注意這一點。如果不考慮未來的情況，我們就不會成長。因此，根據未來的情況，我們可能會看到某些投資組合的加速程度或多或少。

And this will naturally be released and informed to you by the beginning of next year. So how so far we feel comfortable with the pace? We're not estimating or expecting any downturn, a strong downturn. We still have a GDP growing. We still have a very solid unemployment rate, which is positive.

這個自然會在明年初發布並通知大家。那麼到目前為止我們對節奏感到滿意嗎？我們並不估計或預期會出現任何衰退，甚至是強烈的衰退。我們的 GDP 仍在成長。我們的失業率仍然非常穩定，這是積極的。

We've been seeing the wages increasing. We see some leverage, yes, in some segments of the economy, in some companies. And those are the places where we're going to be more cautious. In other segments, we see a lot of investments, improvement in infrastructure.

我們看到工資在上漲。是的，我們在某些​​經濟領域、某些公司看到了一些槓桿作用。這些是我們要更加謹慎的地方。在其他領域，我們看到大量投資和基礎設施的改善。

And those are the segments we're going to keep being very active. So the bank is very big and broad. That means that we should be looking always for long-term cycles and this is the way we'll be managing the portfolio.

這些是我們將繼續非常活躍的領域。所以銀行規模很大、範圍很廣。這意味著我們應該始終尋找長期週期，而這就是我們管理投資組合的方式。

And Tito also asked if you see any room for further improvement on NPLs?

鐵託也問，您認為不良貸款方面是否還有進一步改進的空間？

Yes, I believe so. In the short term, we might see still room to improve our NPL ratios. The cost of credit related to portfolio is still decreasing or is getting there to the minimums. So I think it's reasonable to expect. And the second topic is in a nominal basis. With the amount of the portfolio and the portfolios that we are growing, we might see some increase in the nominal numbers of cost of credit, but not in the relative numbers, which is much more important now.

是的，我相信是的。短期來看，我們的不良貸款率可能仍有改善的空間。與投資組合相關的信貸成本仍在下降或已降至最低水準。所以我認為這是合理的預期。第二個主題是名義上的。隨著投資組合的規模和我們正在成長的投資組合，我們可能會看到信貸成本的名目數字增加，但相對數字卻沒有增加，而相對數字現在更為重要。

But we still see improvement on the NPL. And the only segment that it's difficult to say that is on the big companies, large companies, because we are working with a very, very low indicator showing that there is no room to improve. But, of course, it depends on the scenario interest rate. If there is any normalization in the credit cycle of companies in general, so that might have any effect if that happens.

但我們仍然看到不良貸款有所改善。唯一很難說的是大公司，大公司，因為我們正在使用一個非常非常低的指標，顯示沒有改進的空間。但是，當然，這取決於情境利率。如果整個公司的信貸週期正常化，那麼如果發生這種情況可能會產生任何影響。

But the good news about that is that the provisions on the expected losses that we do are done before we have any delinquency in the NPL. So that's why we have that cover ratio so big on the companies in general, large companies, is because we do provisions before the cycle. It doesn't have a relation with the delinquency in the indicator.

但好消息是，我們所做的預期損失撥備是在不良貸款出現任何拖欠之前完成的。這就是為什麼我們對一般公司、大公司的覆蓋率如此之大，是因為我們在周期之前就做了撥備。它與指標中的拖欠率沒有關係。

(spoken in foreign language) Now going back to Portuguese and our question now, Brian Flores, Citibank.

（用外語發言）現在回到葡萄牙語和我們的問題，花旗銀行的 Brian Flores。

Thank you, Renato. Thank you, Milton. A question about Latin America. It seems to improve, but I wanted to get your true sense on what is the driver behind this improvement? What should we expect? Can we dream an ROI of 15% maybe as last year? And if you can remind us the hedging policy. As you said, the exposure to exchange rate is very relevant for this operation. Thanks.

謝謝你，雷納托。謝謝你，米爾頓。關於拉丁美洲的問題。它似乎有所改善，但我想了解您對這種改善背後的驅動因素的真實感受是什麼？我們該期待什麼？我們能否夢想像去年一樣實現 15% 的投資報酬率？如果您能提醒我們對沖政策。正如您所說，匯率風險與此操作非常相關。謝謝。

Thank you. First, Latin America, we've managed to improve all of the operations with solid results. But it's important to realize that in our business model, the way that we publish, we do the allocations, fiscal and capital allocations, looking at the consolidated overall. So the two biggest symmetries that we have in the operations abroad are the tax effect. So we have that logic of the universal taxing in Brazil.

謝謝。首先，在拉丁美洲，我們已經成功改善了所有業務並取得了紮實的成果。但重要的是要認識到，在我們的商業模式中，我們發布的方式，我們進行分配、財務和資本分配，並著眼於整體合併。因此，我們在海外業務中最大的兩個對稱性是稅收效應。所以我們有巴西普遍徵稅的邏輯。

So all the tax that I pay locally, I recognize 34 and 35, depending on the vehicle, which brings a higher tax rate, much higher than the compared peers that operate in the same countries. And since we operate with a capital level that is very high, much higher than the set one that these operations have outside of Brazil, that excess of capital for the appetite, we allocate it in the operations as well. So naturally, it pressures on the level of return.

因此，我在當地繳納的所有稅款，根據車輛的不同，我承認 34 和 35，這帶來了更高的稅率，遠高於在同一國家運營的同行。由於我們營運的資本水平非常高，遠高於這些業務在巴西境外的設定水平，超出了滿足胃口的資本，我們也將其分配到營運中。因此，這自然會對回報水平造成壓力。

And the last information that is also relevant, when we do the hedging of the capital index, we also allocate the cost of the hedge in the shareholder vision for that operation that generated the effect. So the cost of opportunity of the hedge of the capital index, we allocated in the business model.

最後一個資訊也是相關的，當我們對資本指數進行對沖時，我們也將對沖成本分配到產生效果的操作的股東願景。所以資本指數對沖的機會成本，我們分配在商業模式。

So I think that running with this level of return, even though it's below 14, which is what we published on the cost of capital calculated by our methodology, our operations that if you look at Chile, the cost of capital allocated, the COE, the cost of equity should be lower than 14.

所以我認為，以這樣的回報水平運行，即使它低於 14，這是我們根據我們的方法計算的資本成本發布的，我們的運營，如果你看看智利，分配的資本成本，COE，股權成本應低於14。

But since the investor today, the Italian bank doesn't give a COE that is different because of the ponderation of our balances and the size of the portfolio in the different countries, we end up, therefore, by simplification, do the same thing where we look at the profitability because we always look at the shareholder vision. I go back to the issue of management by the capital allocation and return on the allocated capital. This is the way that we measure.

但由於今天的投資者，義大利銀行並沒有因為我們對不同國家的餘額和投資組合規模的考慮而給出不同的COE，因此，通過簡化，我們最終會做同樣的事情我們關注盈利能力，因為我們總是關注股東的願景。我回到資本配置管理和資本配置報酬的問題。這就是我們測量的方式。

Having said that, there is a criteria for the results if we had to adjust the cost of equity in the countries that would be much closer to the cost of equity and possibly some countries would generate value, as the case of Chile. Clearly, Chile generates value if we see the cost of capital locally. If we do all the adjustment for the vision of the shareholder in Brazil, it generates side effects that I just mentioned.

話雖如此，如果我們必須調整那些更接近股權成本的國家的股權成本，並且可能有些國家會產生價值，例如智利的情況，那麼結果有一個標準。顯然，如果我們看到當地的資本成本，智利就會創造價值。如果我們針對巴西股東的願景進行所有調整，就會產生我剛才提到的副作用。

But it's the correct vision. That's why we measure it this way, and this is the reason why we do not do the expansion that is larger abroad because it doesn't seem to be a good capital allocation beyond what we already have and we manage to improve relevantly and with profitability. So this is the overall view. It's positive, but we will continue to follow up.

但這是正確的願景。這就是為什麼我們以這種方式衡量它，這就是為什麼我們不進行在國外更大規模的擴張的原因，因為這似乎不是一個超出我們已有資本配置的良好資本配置，而我們設法在盈利能力方面進行相關改進。所以這是總體的看法。這是積極的，但我們將繼續跟進。

On the second question, which is the cost of hedge of the index, what happens is we end up with a fine for each currency. We do that for every currency. So, we have the index to the currency and the RWA index to the currency. So if there is a variation with the currency, the patrimony walks along with the same proportion. So we do the hedge of the cost of index of the capital.

關於第二個問題，即指數的避險成本，最終我們會對每種貨幣處以罰款。我們對每種貨幣都這樣做。因此，我們有貨幣指數和貨幣 RWA 指數。因此，如果貨幣發生變化，遺產也會以相同的比例變化。所以我們對資金的指數成本進行了對沖。

But the cost of opportunity is to bring this capital back and invest it with a higher interest rate in reals. So, the cost of hedge of index is the difference between the pre rate in Brazil where I could apply that capital with a rate free in the currencies of the other countries. So that goes through P&L, this effect, and we see a growing effect for the cost of hedge.

但機會成本是將這些資本帶回來並以更高的雷亞爾利率進行投資。因此，指數對沖成本是巴西預利率之間的差異，在巴西，我可以使用其他國家貨幣的免費利率來應用該資本。因此，這貫穿了損益表，這種效應，我們看到對沖成本的影響越來越大。

So, if you ask me, for 2025, the cost of hedge of the index is going to be higher? Yes, it's going to be higher than 2024 because the differential of the interest rate is going to increase. The other side of the same coin is that we have an effect in the patrimony that, in this case, because of the devaluing, is positive.

那麼，如果你問我，2025年，指數的避險成本會更高嗎？是的，它會高於 2024 年，因為利率差異將會增加。同一枚硬幣的另一面是，我們對遺產產生了影響，在這種情況下，由於貶值，它是積極的。

When we look at what happens through the result, it's a hedge, it's an insurance so that we have less volatility in the capital index so we can have a policy of dividends that is much clearer and that we can do the distribution that is higher so we don't have to be provisioning capital for volatility in the index in the future.

當我們透過結果來看會發生什麼時，它是一種對沖，它是一種保險，這樣我們的資本指數波動性較小，因此我們可以製定更清晰的股息政策，並且我們可以進行更高的分配，以便我們不必為未來指數的波動提供資本。

So this brings a great capacity of management as a cost, but we see that this is an insurance that is important for the capital management of the operation.

所以這帶來了很大的管理能力作為成本，但我們看到這是一個保險，對於營運的資本管理很重要。

Mario Pierry, Bank of America.

馬裡奧·皮里，美國銀行。

Good morning everyone. Congratulations on the results. Very predictable, high profitability. Milton, focusing on profitability of the retail business, the ROI, you improved it 19% to 24% now from last year, but a great deal of the improvement is the reduction of the cost of credit. When we look at the index of efficiency, you see this number and it worsened from 45% to 47%.

大家早安。祝賀結果。非常可預測，獲利能力高。Milton，專注於零售業務的獲利能力，即投資回報率，現在比去年提高了 19% 到 24%，但很大一部分改進是信貸成本的降低。當我們查看效率指數時，您會看到這個數字，它從 45% 惡化到 47%。

Could you tell us about structural changes that you need to do to improve this index? I imagine that this is an index that you're not satisfied. And with all these changes that you've discussed of the One App, [Bonita U], the benefits are going to come in cost or just benefits in revenue. Thank you.

您能否告訴我們為了改善該指數而需要進行的結構性改變？我想這是一個你不滿意的指標。透過您討論的 One App [Bonita U] 的所有這些變化，收益將來自成本或僅僅是收入收益。謝謝。

Look, Mario, excellent question. Thank you for the initial words. Great to see you. First, we managed to consistently expand the ROI of retail. This ROI is materializing in two ways at the operation of retail in the companies and retails and the natural persons. So, we got at a low of 16.4%, which is when you asked me if I was satisfied with this profitability level.

聽著，馬裡奧，很好的問題。謝謝你最初的話。很高興見到你。首先，我們設法持續擴大零售投資報酬率。這種投資回報率透過兩種方式在公司、零售和自然人的零售營運中實現。所以，當你問我對這個獲利水準是否滿意時，我們的利潤率達到了 16.4% 的低點。

My answer was no. But in fact, because of the cycle of credit, it was more difficult. Given the relevance specifically of the portfolio credit cards and the balance of the bank, specifically on what we call the open ocean and the monoliner channels, we felt the cost of credit much stronger, which affected the profitability of the business as a whole.

我的回答是否定的。但事實上，因為信貸的周期，難度更高。考慮到信用卡組合和銀行餘額的相關性，特別是我們所說的遠洋和單一管道的相關性，我們認為信貸成本要高得多，這影響了整個業務的獲利能力。

So we are little by little expanding. If you look at the profitability of retail, it's aligned with the ROI of the bank. So it's not diluted further and it starts to be neutral and contributing and generating value when we look at the cost of capital of the bank.

所以我們正在一點一點地擴張。如果你看看零售業的獲利能力，它與銀行的投資報酬率是一致的。因此，當我們考慮銀行的資本成本時，它不會被進一步稀釋，並且開始保持中性並貢獻和創造價值。

So we look at results that are very healthy, the operation performing and evolving in a very important way, and all of them generating value in the aforementioned months in a very important way. This is the big news that we don't have a profitability that is just concentrated in a portfolio and below the cost of capital and the other ones. Everyone is generating value in different magnitudes, but all are generating value, the first information.

因此，我們著眼於非常健康的結果，營運以非常重要的方式執行和發展，並且所有這些都以非常重要的方式在上述幾個月中創造了價值。這是一個重大消息，我們的獲利能力並不只集中在投資組合中，而且低於資本成本和其他成本。每個人都在不同程度地產生價值，但所有人都在產生價值，也就是第一個訊息。

The efficiency index, you are correct. We did the derisking. There is an important work of sanitization of this portfolio. It was positive for the growth in profitability because regulatory changes, more competition, less fees. So how do we see the evolution of this operation?

效率指數，你是對的。我們進行了去風險化。該組合有一項重要的清理工作。由於監管變化、競爭加劇、費用減少，這對獲利能力的成長是正面的。那我們要如何看待這項行動的演變呢？

First, caps that were placed specifically in the overdraft fees, they removed profitability points. The cross-sell that was done and the way that the products were priced, there was a relevant change with the change in the market.

首先，特別設定透支費用上限，從而消除了獲利點。進行的交叉銷售以及產品定價的方式，隨著市場的變化而發生了相關的變化。

So today you have less dependency of fees, the fees that are known, the tariffs and so on. And you end up having a higher dependency of credit, the relationship with the client, which leads this operation to have a lower ROI level than what you had historically.

因此，今天您對費用、已知費用、關稅等的依賴減少了。最終，您對信用以及與客戶的關係有更高的依賴性，這導致該操作的投資回報率低於您歷史上的水平。

The name of the game is efficiency, scalability. And, of course, for you to do this, you need to have capacity in generating engagement, value proposition so that the client will engage with you in a model that is more efficient than the model that is traditional.

遊戲的名稱是效率、可擴充性。當然，要做到這一點，您需要有能力產生參與度和價值主張，以便客戶能夠以比傳統模型更有效的模型與您互動。

We've managed to work with the digital model. We are adjusting our footprint throughout these years, always doing this in a very careful and coordinated way because just doing the process for the reduction of costs, et cetera, is a process that if you're going to do it in an intelligent way and careful way, in the end what you're doing is you're telling your customers to go away and this is not what we want to do. We want to do the transition and having a value proposition in the business model for every profile of clients.

我們已經成功地使用數位模型。這些年來，我們一直在調整我們的足跡，總是以非常謹慎和協調的方式進行，因為僅僅進行降低成本等的過程，就是一個如果你打算以智能的方式進行的過程，並且小心點，最終你所做的就是告訴你的顧客離開，而這不是我們想要做的。我們希望進行轉型，並在商業模式中為每種類型的客戶提供價值主張。

So high income, we see profitabilities that are positive and a capacity of growing that is important. All the businesses being reviewed, all of them working with repositioning, nobody is resting under laurels, everybody is running and working diligently. But the cost of service in some of these businesses change thresholds, an example.

如此高的收入，我們看到了積極的獲利能力和成長能力，這一點很重要。各項業務都在重新審視，都在重新定位，沒有人固步自封，大家都在努力奔跑、努力工作。但其中一些企業的服務成本改變了門檻，例如。

We in the past worked in the high income segments with a vision that the management was the only point of relationship with the client. With the open platforms, the autonomous agents, we saw that it was important to specialize more and have consultants in these operations. These are the ION consultants for investment.

我們過去在高收入領域工作，我們的願景是管理階層是與客戶的唯一關係點。透過開放平台、自主代理，我們發現更專業並在這些操作中擁有顧問非常重要。這些都是ION的投資顧問。

So to serve as the same client, to defend the profitability, but with a cost of service that is higher because now I have besides the manager in the relationship, I have the consultant of insurance, investment, so you start to have a cost of service that is higher, which affects obviously your efficiency level, efficiency index.

因此，作為同一個客戶，捍衛盈利能力，但服務成本更高，因為現在除了經理之外，我還有保險、投資顧問，所以你開始有成本服務越高越好，這明顯影響你的效率水平、效率指數。

What is our logic in management? First of all, if we don't have the digital platforms that are state-of-the-art with a value offering that is state-of-the-art, to imagine that we're going to work with an efficiency level that is better, it's going to be in the brute force.

我們的管理邏輯是什麼？首先，如果我們沒有最先進的數位平台和最先進的價值產品，想像一下我們將以這樣的效率水平工作：更好，它將是暴力。

And we know that in brute force, you only get short-term results. You improve the cost, you adjust the structure, but you reduce substantially the lifetime value of your clients in the organization. So our focus all throughout these years was in modernization of the platform, migration for the cloud, the evolution of generative AI, and we increased even the headcount in technology to accelerate even more this process of digitalization of the bank.

我們知道，透過暴力，你只能得到短期結果。您提高了成本，調整了結構，但大大降低了組織中客戶的終身價值。因此，這些年來我們的重點是平台的現代化、雲端遷移、生成式人工智慧的發展，我們甚至增加了技術人員數量，以進一步加速銀行的數位化進程。

The 33 new products that I just mentioned are for that. And what we are working diligently is to understand what is the model of business, what is the efficiency level for me to work with different publics. Structurally, there is relevant work to be done, and we hope to get the results at the end of all these next years, so we can improve the efficiency level of the segments that really need to be more efficient so we can generate value.

我剛才提到的33個新產品就是為了這個目的。而我們正在努力工作的是了解商業模式是什麼，我與不同公眾合作的效率水平是多少。從結構上來說，還有相關工作要做，我們希望在未來幾年結束時得到結果，這樣我們就可以提高真正需要提高效率的部門的效率水平，以便我們能夠創造價值。

With this level of efficiency for some segments, we have profitability that are high. For others, the profitability is suppressed specifically for the low-income. And then there is a super app to tie all that down. If we look at the monoliner operation and compare to any new bank, we see our efficiency level is very similar.

憑藉某些細分市場的這種效率水平，我們的獲利能力很高。對其他人來說，獲利能力尤其受到低收入者的抑制。然後有一個超級應用程式可以解決這一切。如果我們觀察單一銀行的運作並與任何新銀行進行比較，我們會發現我們的效率水平非常相似。

The results are similar. What changes is the size of the portfolio of credit and the appetite for risk. If we remove that, we have the capacity today of growing and servicing these clients. And the super app will be the most efficient way for us to service these clients through an app that has the completeness that it should have so that the client that doesn't have the capacity, doesn't have the pockets to be serviced by the high-medium income, they start to have a value proposition that is more efficient.

結果是相似的。變化的是信貸組合的規模和風險偏好。如果我們消除這一點，我們今天就有能力發展和服務這些客戶。超級應用程式將是我們透過應用程式為這些客戶提供服務的最有效方式，該應用程式具有應有的完整性，以便那些沒有能力、沒有錢來接受服務的客戶中高收入者，他們開始提出更有效的價值主張。

This is the work of the super app that services not only the base of the mono app clients, but services for the clients that are going to have a completeness of offerings that are much better through a super app in a more efficient way with the capacity for generation revenue that is better with an experience that is much better. This is our strategy. This is the path moving forward. But we've never been so advanced and so doing so well to take the next steps.

這是超級應用程式的工作，它不僅為單一應用程式客戶群提供服務，而且還為那些將擁有完整產品的客戶提供服務，這些產品透過超級應用程式以更有效的方式和容量提供更好的服務透過更好的體驗來創造更好的收入。這是我們的策略。這是前進的道路。但我們從未如此先進、如此出色地採取了後續措施。

Bernardo Guttmann, XP.

貝爾納多·古特曼，XP。

Good morning, Renato, Milton. Thank you for the opportunity and congratulations on the results. You had an evolution in the sequential, in the credit origination at the beginning of the year because of the expansion of the guidance, but the appetite is more cautious in the lines that are for the natural persons, even though there is a quarterly growth.

早安，雷納托，米爾頓。感謝您提供的機會並祝賀結果。由於指導方針的擴大，年初的信貸發放出現了連續性的演變，但對自然人的貸款偏好更加謹慎，儘管出現了季度增長。

The question is, will the rollout of Itau-1 and their potential of cross-sale, would it contribute for an acceleration in your origination? The review of the guidance already predicts implicitly an acceleration that is stronger in this segment.

問題是，Itau-1 的推出及其交叉銷售的潛力是否會加速您的創始過程？對指南的審查已經隱含地預測了這一領域的加速。

Now that this process of risk-off has finished, can we expect the portfolio of natural persons converging for a higher threshold, maybe closer to the total portfolio in the next three, in the next quarters?

既然這個風險規避過程已經結束，我們是否可以預期自然人的投資組合會在接下來的三個季度內收斂到更高的門檻，也許更接近總投資組合？

Thank you. Thank you for the questions. Well, no, there is no impact in the growth of the portfolio of the super app in the review that we just conducted. It was exclusively the effect of the currency that I commented. It was a mechanical effect.

謝謝。謝謝你的提問。嗯，不，在我們剛剛進行的審查中，超級應用程式組合的成長沒有受到影響。我所評論的完全是貨幣的影響。這是一種機械效應。

But we believe that the super app is and will be a great avenue of growth, specifically in the natural persons. Why? Because it's not open ocean, because these are known clients. These are clients that we have a record of credit.

但我們相信超級應用程式現在和將來都會成為一個巨大的成長途徑，特別是在自然人中。為什麼？因為這不是公海，因為這些都是已知的客戶。這些是我們有信用記錄的客戶。

We have the behavior of this client and looking across the capacity of delivering other products for this client is a completeness of relationships and engagement that is different. This will make the client to have more to be the main -- we are going to be the main ones.

我們了解該客戶的行為，並審視為該客戶提供其他產品的能力，這是一種不同的關係和參與的完整性。這將使客戶有更多的機會成為主要的——我們將成為主要的。

You have the return allocated per client, which will allow you to expand the credit portfolio. And you can, with that, have less delinquency because of the time, the engagement that we have with the client, because we are the main bank. This is the strategy.

您可以為每位客戶分配回報，這將使您能夠擴大信貸投資組合。這樣一來，由於我們是主要銀行，我們與客戶的合作時間和參與度可以減少拖欠率。這就是策略。

Now, we are moving on this path. But to expect -- to administer this expectation, everything that we propose ourselves to do, we are over our expectations. But the crucial step, which is to see the cross-sell and growth, our portfolio has just started.

現在，我們正在這條路上前進。但要期望——管理這個期望，我們建議自己做的一切，我們都超越了我們的期望。但關鍵的一步是看到交叉銷售和成長，我們的投資組合才剛開始。

We are learning with this process. It's a continuous evolution. We are very positive and optimistic on the projects that we discuss the most and the ones that get the most updates. We are very positive in regards to that.

我們正在透過這個過程學習。這是一個持續的演變。我們對討論最多和更新最多的項目非常積極和樂觀。我們對此非常積極。

We're closing the expectation of the growth of portfolio and looking up ahead in the scenarios fundamental. So, this catch-up that we've done this year is a catch-up that we've done for many, many years. Growing the portfolio and target clients, which are masked by the reduction of the portfolio naturally in vehicles and credit cards, some things that we had to do strongly in the portfolio.

我們正在結束對投資組合成長的預期，並展望未來的基本面情況。因此，我們今年所做的追趕是我們多年來所做的追趕。擴大投資組合和目標客戶，這被車輛和信用卡自然減少的投資組合所掩蓋，這是我們必須在投資組合中大力做的一些事情。

Looking up ahead, our expectation is to grow in an adequate level the -- we tend to have a growth in the margin, so we expect to have a growth and we're going to generate top-line. But the most important thing here than generating the growing, generating top-line is the cost of credit that is well-behaved, which allows our financial margin to continue to expand and evolve looking up ahead.

展望未來，我們的預期是在適當的水平上成長——我們的利潤率往往會成長，因此我們預計會出現成長，並且我們將產生營收。但比產生不斷增長的收入更重要的是表現良好的信貸成本，這使得我們的財務利潤能夠繼續擴大和發展。

So, growing the top-line more than the cost of credit and the cost of credit will always have a relationship, natural relationship, with the growth of the portfolio. We see the capacity of growth in the portfolio. I wouldn't want to have an implicit that the review and guidance from 9 to 9.5 is not a point of lining for the next year.

因此，收入的成長超過信貸成本，而信貸成本始終與投資組合的成長存在著天然的關係。我們看到了投資組合的成長能力。我不想暗示從 9 到 9.5 的審查和指導不是明年的重點。

That's not the message. We haven't closed the numbers. We can see growth in all the segments, but we are not here saying we're anticipating that our guidance of growth of portfolio is going to be from 9.5 to 12.5. We're -- I'm not anticipating the guidance for '25 and we are going to discuss this at the beginning of the year with more data, more information, and more information on the scenario.

消息不是這樣的。我們還沒有關閉這些數字。我們可以看到所有細分市場的成長，但我們並不是說我們預期投資組合成長的指導值將從 9.5 升至 12.5。我們——我預計不會有 25 年的指導，我們將在今年年初討論這個問題，提供更多數據、更多資訊和更多有關場景的資訊。

So I believe that there's going to be the elections today in the US, all of that discussion in the fiscal tax, interest rate, inflation, exchange rate, very relevant variables that impact naturally the appetite for growth of the portfolios. And at the beginning of the year, we're going to have more information to be more precise and transparent with you guys.

因此，我相信美國今天將舉行選舉，所有討論都會涉及財政稅收、利率、通貨膨脹、匯率等非常相關的變量，這些變量自然會影響投資組合增長的意願。在今年年初，我們將向大家提供更多信息，以便更加準確和透明。

Perfect, thank you Milton.

完美，謝謝米爾頓。

Flipping back to English because we have with us now to make the next question, Carlos Gomez, HSBC.

回到英語，因為我們現在要提出下一個問題，卡洛斯‧戈麥斯，匯豐銀行。

Hola. Thank you very much and congratulations again on the results. So two technical questions. One is on your provisions for labor claims. I noticed that they have increased almost 70% this year versus last year. I wanted to know if there is something special that has changed or this is voluntary given that you are having a good result?

你好。非常感謝並再次恭喜結果。那麼兩個技術問題。其中之一是關於勞工索賠的規定。我注意到今年與去年相比增加了近 70%。我想知道是否有什麼特別的改變，或者考慮到你取得了良好的成績，這是自願的？

What is the reason and what we can expect in the future? And second, in regards to the provisional measure 1261, could you give us the details as to when it starts being applied and which period you are taking between 7 and 10 years. Thank you.

原因是什麼？第二，關於臨時措施1261，您能否詳細說明該措施何時開始實施以及實施時間為7年至10年。謝謝。

Yes, thank you very much, Carlos. About your first question, it's a great question. I'd like first to highlight that if you look to the level of provisions we have for labor, with respect with the payments we made in 2024, looking nine months, you will see that we have a ratio of 3.5.

是的，非常感謝你，卡洛斯。關於你的第一個問題，這是一個很好的問題。我首先想強調的是，如果你看看我們的勞動力準備金水平，考慮到我們在 2024 年支付的款項，看看 9 個月，你會發現我們的比率為 3.5。

That means that we have a level of provision 3.5 times the level of payments we made cash in 2024. So I think this shows you how strong is the level of provisions we have. And the same way we do for credit, we do for other risks, we do for labor provisions, the expected loss provisions.

這意味著我們的準備金水準是 2024 年現金支付水準的 3.5 倍。所以我認為這表明我們的供應水平有多強大。就像我們對信貸所做的那樣，我們對其他風險、勞工準備金、預期損失準備金也是如此。

So we are always anticipating the cycle and making provisions almost in our expected loss for labor discussions, labor claims. Talking about the growth, I think the most relevant information is that we see that the decisions are much faster in 2024 than it was in 2023. So we are seeing an increase in decisions being made by the court being 15% to 20% more than what we saw last year. So this is one of the effect.

因此，我們總是預測這個週期，並為勞工討論、勞工索賠的預期損失做好準備。談到成長，我認為最相關的資訊是我們看到 2024 年的決策比 2023 年快得多。因此，我們看到法院做出的判決比去年增加了 15% 至 20%。所以這就是效果之一。

The second one we had positive effects in 2023. So some reviews that we did, some reversals we did in our balance sheet. So there is a baseline comparison that it's not exactly the same. The third good information is that our cost by legal law, legal suit is specific on labor has been reducing strongly year by year. So we are much more efficient, we are being much more sharp in making those decisions and discussions in the court.

第二個我們在2023年取得了正面的效果。所以我們做了一些審查，我們在資產負債表中做了一些逆轉。所以有一個基線比較，它並不完全相同。第三個好消息是，我們因法律、針對勞工的法律訴訟而產生的成本逐年大幅下降。因此，我們在法庭上做出這些決定和討論時效率更高、更加敏銳。

So in general, I think it's a baseline comparison and the most relevant impact has to do with more cases, has to do with some restructurings we've been doing in the bank throughout the year. So we have more cases rising and also much more processes being discussed in the court. So that's the most relevant impact that I see. This is the first topic. The second question was?

所以總的來說，我認為這是一個基準比較，最相關的影響與更多案例有關，與我們全年在銀行進行的一些重組有關。因此，我們有更多的案件正在上升，法庭上正在討論更多的程序。這是我看到的最相關的影響。這是第一個主題。第二個問題是？

Provisions for resolution.

決議規定。

Andrew from Morgan Stanley. Hello, Andrew. Thanks for joining us.

來自摩根士丹利的安德魯。你好，安德魯。感謝您加入我們。

And the provisions on the DTA side, on the tax side. So my view here is that we haven't made the decision yet. I believe, as I was saying, that if it's for 7 or 10 years, we wouldn't have any capital index impact. But we are right now making these discussions because we have by the beginning of the year to make the election. And this will be applied beginning in 2026 on.

還有DTA方面、稅務方面的規定。所以我的觀點是我們還沒有做出決定。正如我所說，我相信如果持續 7 年或 10 年，我們就不會對資本指數產生任何影響。但我們現在正在進行這些討論，因為我們將在今年年初進行選舉。這將從 2026 年開始應用。

So 2025, it's like a grace period. And then from '26 on, we'll have this impact. But by the beginning of the year, we'll make this decision. Of course, it depends on many things, but as it's a long cycle, we have to make the decision according to those projections. So we haven't finalized yet. We should be releasing this information by the beginning of next year.

所以2025年，這就像一個寬限期。然後從 26 年開始，我們將產生這種影響。但到今年年初，我們將做出這個決定。當然，這取決於許多因素，但由於週期很長，所以我們必須根據這些預測來做出決定。所以我們還沒有最終確定。我們應該在明年初之前發布這些資訊。

Very clear. Thank you. Thanks, Milton. Thanks, Carlos.

非常清楚。謝謝。謝謝，米爾頓。謝謝，卡洛斯。

And we're going to remain in English as the next question comes from Andrew, Morgan Stanley.

我們將繼續使用英語，因為下一個問題來自摩根士丹利的安德魯。

Hi, Milton. Hi, Renato. Thank you for the opportunity to ask questions. I was hoping you could explain what you're seeing right now in the acquiring business, Andrea. There was a nice quarterly improvement in revenues, but the TPV I think of 4% year over year is about the lowest growth rate since 2020.

嗨，米爾頓。嗨，雷納托。感謝您給我提問的機會。安德里亞，我希望你能解釋一下你現在在收購業務中所看到的情況。每個季度的收入都有不錯的改善，但我認為 TPV 年比 4% 大約是 2020 年以來的最低成長率。

So is -- kind of curious what you think is driving that deceleration. Maybe it's competition, maybe it's simply the fact that your disclosures don't include PIX and there's a mix shift in the volumes to PIX, how that is impacting the business.

也是——有點好奇你認為是什麼導致了這種減速。也許是競爭，也許只是因為您的揭露不包括 PIX，並且向 PIX 的交易量發生了混合變化，這對業務有何影響。

And kind of curious on what you think will likely happen as the leak increases, whether you might see some other players try to increase prices, whether you may try to do the same. Just anything you can share on that side of the business would be helpful. Thank you.

我有點好奇隨著洩漏的增加，你認為可能會發生什麼，你是否會看到其他一些玩家試圖提高價格，你是否會嘗試做同樣的事情。您可以在業務方面分享的任何內容都會有所幫助。謝謝。

Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Andrew, for your question. First of all, when you take PIX in consideration, you will see that specifically on the debit side, PIX has a huge impact. That's for credit cards or debit cards and that's for acquiring business on the debit side as well.

好的。謝謝。謝謝你，安德魯，你的問題。首先，當您考慮PIX時，您會發現特別是在藉方方面，PIX具有巨大的影響。這適用於信用卡或金融卡，也適用於金融卡的業務收購。

We've been able -- the way we show the acquiring business is not reliant because it's separate in many lines of the MD&A. So part of the results are in the results of services, part of the results is in the financial margin with the client; the cost of funding is there, the flags or the MDR in the services margin. So we are thinking about how to give a better information for you, for the market from 2025 on.

我們已經能夠——我們展示收購業務的方式並不具有依賴性，因為它在 MD&A 的許多方面都是獨立的。所以部分結果是服務的結果，部分結果是與客戶的財務利潤；資金成本就在那裡，服務邊際中的標誌或 MDR。所以我們正在考慮如何為您、為2025年以後的市場提供更好的資訊。

But the most relevant information I need to give you is that we don't look to the acquiring business as a product anymore as we used to look in the past. I think at that time, we had many companies, all of them competing on the acquiring business the same way. We had a separate company. We had public companies. So everyone, everybody with an eye on that specific business.

但我需要向您提供的最相關資訊是，我們不再像過去那樣將收購業務視為一種產品。我想當時我們有很多公司，他們都以同樣的方式競爭收購業務。我們有一家獨立的公司。我們有上市公司。所以每個人，每個人都專注在這個特定的業務。

For us, we look for payments. We don't look for acquiring anymore. So the business of payments is 10 times the business of acquiring if we consider all of them together. And this is just another value proposition that we have when we're talking about payments and receivables with our clients. So it's part of the portfolio, the huge portfolio that we have. We have the acquiring business as another product that we offer to our clients.

對我們來說，我們尋求付款。我們不再尋求收購。所以如果我們綜合考慮的話，支付業務是收單業務的10倍。這只是我們與客戶討論付款和應收帳款時的另一個價值主張。所以它是我們擁有的龐大投資組合的一部分。我們將收單業務作為我們向客戶提供的另一種產品。

We've been very cautious in pricing. The TPV is basically flat. We've been increasing the capability to increase more financial products, and of course, looking the relationship with the client as a whole, not only looking the relationship with the client on a product view. So this is basically what we are seeing.

我們在定價方面一直非常謹慎。TPV基本持平。我們一直在增強能力，增加更多的金融產品，當然，我們也把與客戶的關係作為一個整體來看待，而不僅僅是從產品的角度來看待與客戶的關係。這基本上就是我們所看到的。

We've been able to defend market share somehow. We are the leading company in the market. We see a lot of efforts going on, but the way we see sometimes the market putting more people to sell, this is not the way we believe is the right way to move forward because at the end of the day, you can sell a lot, but you don't guarantee and you don't reduce necessarily the churn. The cost of acquisition is very high and you don't generate engagement.

我們已經能夠以某種方式捍衛市場佔有率。我們是市場上的領先公司。我們看到很多努力正在進行，但有時我們看到市場讓更多的人出售，這不是我們認為前進的正確方式，因為最終，你可以出售很多東西，但你不能保證，也不一定會減少客戶流失。獲取成本非常高，而且無法產生參與度。

And for us, the name of the game is engagement, long time value -- lifetime value and long-term relationship with the clients. That's why for me, acquiring business is one product that we have in a very broad portfolio of payments and receivables. So even though you are seeing this growth being a little bit lower on the credit side, it's been higher, and we have to look the other payment methods together in this portfolio to have a more broader view and the client view of course. So this is my view on that.

對我們來說，遊戲的名稱是參與度、長期價值——終身價值以及與客戶的長期關係。這就是為什麼對我來說，收購業務是我們在非常廣泛的付款和應收帳款組合中擁有的產品。因此，儘管您看到信貸方面的成長略低，但成長卻更高，我們必須同時考慮該投資組合中的其他支付方式，以獲得更廣泛的視野，當然還有客戶的視野。這就是我對此的看法。

Thank you, Milton. Now going back to the next question to Portuguese, we have Natalia Corfield, JPMorgan.

謝謝你，米爾頓。現在回到葡萄牙語的下一個問題，我們有來自摩根大通的娜塔莉亞·科菲爾德(Natalia Corfield)。

Good morning and thank you for taking my question. It's related to capitalization and the call of the AT1 that was announced yesterday. I am assuming that that AT1 will be totally substituted by local AT1. And I wanted to know if I am correct and I wanted to know what led you to do this call. What happened? What went through your mind? And what led this decision? And how do you see the balance in AT1 locals and AT1s that are international?

早安，感謝您提出我的問題。這與昨天宣布的 AT1 的大小寫和呼叫有關。我假設 AT1 將完全被本地 AT1 取代。我想知道我是否正確，我想知道是什麼促使你打這個電話。發生了什麼事？你想到了什麼？是什麼導致了這個決定？您如何看待本地 AT1 和國際 AT1 之間的平衡？

Well, thank you, Natalia. Thank you for the question. Great to see you. Look, first of all, going back to what I always say in the calls, the decision to take on a call of AT1 is an economic decision. Of course we take into consideration of other factors, but mainly this is an economic decision. First information.

嗯，謝謝你，娜塔莉亞。謝謝你的提問。很高興見到你。首先，回到我在電話中經常說的話，接聽 AT1 電話的決定是一個經濟決定。當然我們也會考慮其他因素，但主要是經濟決定。第一個訊息。

Second information; we don't have the obligation and not even the directive. We don't -- we didn't self-impose this directive of riding with the full tank. So what I say, we don't necessarily want to walk around with a full year run rate because it depends on the capitalization level of the bank.

第二訊息；我們沒有義務，甚至沒有指示。我們沒有——我們沒有自我施加這個滿油箱騎行的指令。所以我想說的是，我們不一定要考慮全年運作率，因為這取決於銀行的資本水準。

With a CET1 of 13.7, if we don't have a capacity of allocating in the market very efficiently, it doesn't make sense for us to carry debts with a threshold of coupon of interest rates that are so high. So the decisions are not necessarily 100% correlated.

在CET1為13.7的情況下，如果我們沒有非常有效地在市場上配置的能力，那麼我們背負如此高的利率門檻的債務是沒有意義的。因此決策不一定是 100% 相關的。

Of course, we exercise a call because we saw the opportunity of issuing locally with more competitive conditions than simply doing the reset and continuing with that perpetual open. That was the main decision.

當然，我們之所以進行看漲期權，是因為我們看到了以更具競爭力的條件在本地發行的機會，而不是簡單地進行重置並繼續永久開放。這是主要的決定。

Now, not necessarily I'm going to access the local market in the same volume that I exercise in the exercise of the call because we have the tolerance to go below 1.5 if necessary.

現在，我不一定會以與行使看漲期權時相同的交易量進入本地市場，因為如果有必要，我們可以容忍低於 1.5 的交易量。

If there is opportunity of capturing a volume that is equivalent to what we exercised in the foreign call exercise, then we are going to look for that opportunity locally, but for us to have the price and opportunity is more important than the volume of the offering.

如果有機會獲得相當於我們在國外看漲期權活動中行使的交易量，那麼我們將在本地尋找該機會，但對我們來說，擁有價格和機會比發行量更重要。

And just to give you numbers, from September to October, BRL3.8 billion in perpetuals, and we exercise that call BRL1,250 million. So we have less reais under call that we exercise now, and we are very comfortable with that, even though the AT1 is going to go to a threshold that is lower than 1.5, which is the maximum regulatory. And I go back to the original point that does not impact the dividend policy in the organization.

給大家一個數字，從 9 月到 10 月，永久債券為 38 億雷亞爾，而我們行使的金額為 12.5 億雷亞爾。因此，我們現在行使的待售雷亞爾減少了，我們對此感到非常滿意，儘管 AT1 將達到低於 1.5（最高監管水平）的門檻。我回到最初的觀點，即不影響組織的股利政策。

So when I exercise the call of the AT1 and I reduce the level of AT1 and the balance and the capital indexes of the bank, that doesn't mean that I am repurchasing as if it's repurchasing of shares and therefore reducing the payout of the dividends.

因此，當我行使 AT1 的贖回權並降低 AT1 的水平以及銀行的餘額和資本指數時，這並不意味著我像回購股票一樣回購，從而減少了股息的支付。

No. We are always going to look at the capital CET1 in the way that we publish. And this is where we have the decisions for the payment of dividends. So the decision was economic. We understood that in the current price, it's more efficient to issue locally than continue to carry over this operation, even though we could issue a lower volume than the call that was exercised. And this will always be the logic on our decision.

不。我們總是會以我們發布的方式來看待資本 CET1。這就是我們決定支付股息的地方。所以這個決定是經濟上的。我們知道，在當前價格下，本地發行比繼續結轉此操作更有效，儘管我們發行的數量可能低於已執行的看漲期權。這將永遠是我們決定的邏輯。

Oh, there's going to be a call in March of next year. How are you going to decide? Same rationale, depending on the market conditions and looking at the domestic market, looking at the foreign market. Oh, maybe you're going to issue new, or -- we don't know, we don't have the need.

哦，明年三月會有電話。你打算如何決定？同樣道理，要看市場狀況，看國內市場，看國外市場。哦，也許你會發行新的，或者——我們不知道，我們沒有這個需要。

That's the main information. What's difficult is when you go to the market is when you have the need because then price is not a variable that you control. We've managed to do this with anticipation. So we can do this at the best price and the best opportunity possible so that economically this is a decision of capital management that is adequate.

這就是主要訊息。困難的是，當你有需求時才去市場，因為那時價格就不是你控制的變數了。我們滿懷期待地做到了這一點。因此，我們可以以最好的價格和最好的機會來做到這一點，這樣從經濟上來說，這是一個足夠的資本管理決策。

Thank you, Milton. We are now going to switch back to English for the last question of the day, last but not least with Nicolas Riva, Bank of America.

謝謝你，米爾頓。我們現在將切換回英語回答今天的最後一個問題，最後一個但並非最不重要的問題是美國銀行的 Nicolas Riva。

Hi, Renato. Thanks very much for the chance to ask questions, and hi Milton as well. So I've got a follow-up question on what Natalia asked before. So she asked about the AT1s and your point was clear that you can have less than 150 basis points of AT1 capital. So we shouldn't expect, I think, an issuance in the international market at least of AT1s.

嗨，雷納托。非常感謝有機會提問，米爾頓也好。我對娜塔莉亞之前問過的問題有一個後續問題。因此，她詢問了 AT1 的情況，您的觀點很明確，即您可以擁有少於 150 個基點的 AT1 資本。因此，我認為我們不應該期望至少在國際市場上發行 AT1。

Regarding the Tier 2s, you have also announced recently you're going to be calling the 29s in November. The impact on capital is smaller. I think it's only 30 basis points. You have also been raising Tier 2 in the local market. In that case, should we assume there's not going to be -- there are no plans really to issue Tier 2 in international market? That's my question on the Tier 2s.

關於 Tier 2，您最近也宣布將於 11 月調用 29。對資本的影響較小。我認為只有30個基點。您也一直在本地市場籌集二級資金。在這種情況下，我們是否應該假設不會——實際上沒有計劃在國際市場上發行 Tier 2？這是我關於二級的問題。

And then second question on IFRS 9. So you had a slide in the presentation, and it seems that your message is there's not going to be any significant impact on provisions for loan losses on capital ratios. I understand you are already using expected losses to calculate provisions for loan losses.

然後是關於 IFRS 9 的第二個問題。因此，您在簡報中放了一張幻燈片，您的資訊似乎不會對資本比率的貸款損失準備金產生任何重大影響。據我所知，您已經在使用預期損失來計算貸款損失撥備。

In terms of the way you disclose asset quality, I believe you're going to be breaking out the loan portfolio in three stages based on the number of delinquency days. I want to confirm that stage 3 loans are going to be defined as 90-plus day NPLs as well. Thanks, Milton.

就您揭露資產品質的方式而言，我相信您將根據拖欠天數將貸款組合分為三個階段。我想確認第三階段貸款也將被定義為超過 90 天的不良貸款。謝謝，米爾頓。

Yes. Thank you. Thank you, Nicolas. Well, first of all, the same comments I made for the AT1 applies to the AT2. Okay? To the Tier 2, not AT2. So that means that on an economic perspective, we're going to be looking to the market, what are the market conditions, the price.

是的。謝謝。謝謝你，尼古拉斯。嗯，首先，我對 AT1 的評論同樣適用於 AT2。好的？到 Tier 2，而不是 AT2。因此，這意味著從經濟角度來看，我們將關注市場，市場狀況和價格如何​​。

Of course, we know the relevance of having an international curve for our debt. So we always try to have a mix in the way we fund the balance sheet of the organization, but at the level of price needs to be there. Otherwise, if there is any arbitrage or any incentive to do it locally, we're going to do it locally.

當然，我們知道擁有國際債務曲線的重要性。因此，我們總是嘗試在為組織的資產負債表提供資金的方式上進行混合，但價格水平需要存在。否則，如果有任何套利或任何在本地進行的激勵，我們將在本地進行。

If the price conditions, or if we understand that we have pricing conditions to do something offshore, will be there as well. So it's not only price. Price, it's a relevant input of our decision, but we take in consideration other information, as the one I was saying, the deepness of the market, how much I can raise, the needs that we have, if it's important to have a curve in US dollars and to have, of course, investors being served by this debt. So we take all of these in consideration and this is the way we're going to pursue.

如果價格條件，或者如果我們了解我們有在海外做某事的定價條件，也會在那裡。所以這不僅僅是價格。價格，這是我們決策的相關輸入，但我們會考慮其他信息，正如我所說的那樣，市場的深度，我可以籌集多少資金，我們的需求，如果有一條曲線很重要當然，投資者也能得到這筆債務的服務。所以我們考慮到所有這些，這就是我們要追求的方式。

So about the second questions on the IFRS 9, we have to remember that it's not exactly the way we see the IFRS 9 approved in Basel. So it's -- the guideline, it's pretty much the same, but we have a few adaptations for the Brazilian view. And this has to do with many topics.

因此，關於 IFRS 9 的第二個問題，我們必須記住，這並不完全是我們在巴塞爾批准 IFRS 9 的方式。所以，指導方針幾乎是一樣的，但我們根據巴西的觀點做了一些調整。這與很多話題有關。

So it's not exactly the way we provide the IFRS 9 today. It's a different way. So we are very comfortable about the level of the stages we have. You won't see many changes. There is some changes in accrual.

因此，這並不完全是我們今天提供 IFRS 9 的方式。這是一種不同的方式。所以我們對我們所擁有的階段水準感到非常滿意。您不會看到太多變化。應計費用有一些變化。

Today we have to do 60 days, it's going to be changed for 90 days. So in the other hand, the provisions for securities, we have to do on expected loss. So as soon as we have all the balance sheet consolidated there, you won't see a very different -- big difference in what we released today, but there is some adaptations for local laws, local regulation that we have to take in consideration. And those adjustments will be made and will be released as soon as possible.

今天要做60天，要改90天。所以另一方面，對於證券的撥備，我們必須對預期損失做準備。因此，一旦我們將所有資產負債表合併到那裡，您就不會看到我們今天發布的內容有很大不同，但我們必須考慮對當地法律、當地法規的一些調整。這些調整將會盡快做出並發布。

I think the key message is that when you mentioned at the beginning of your question is that there is not going to be any impact for us in the capital of the organization, in the index, capital Index, neither on the cost of credit. So this, I think it's the key message that I need to release. Other adjustments may be seen, but not relevant at all.

我認為關鍵的訊息是，當您在問題開頭提到時，我們的組織資本、資本指數和信貸成本都不會受到任何影響。所以，我認為這是我需要釋放的關鍵訊息。可能會看到其他調整，但完全不相關。

Thank you, Milton. And with that, we have the last question from the analysts, but remember, we received a lot of questions via WhatsApp. They're all going to be answered directly to you by the IR team. If you can finish the call with the messages for our audience.

謝謝你，米爾頓。至此，我們收到了分析師提出的最後一個問題，但請記住，我們透過 WhatsApp 收到了很多問題。IR 團隊將直接向您答覆這些問題。如果您能透過向我們的聽眾傳達的訊息來結束通話。

Thank you, Renato. Well, thank you everyone. It's been a great pleasure to be with you once again. This was a very solid quarter with a lot of quality, adequate mix, and positive perspectives, and we can deliver a better bank, larger bank and with good profitability.

謝謝你，雷納托。嗯，謝謝大家。很高興再次與您相聚。這是一個非常穩定的季度，有很多品質、充分的組合和積極的前景，我們可以提供更好的銀行、更大的銀行和良好的獲利能力。

Challenges are always there. We are humble facing these challenges. We cannot -- the past performance is not an assurance of future performance. We have to work with the higher engagement and higher level of energy in the organization, and as a company that is centered in the client. And we are a company that has transformed itself all throughout the years and this has been our purpose, daily purpose.

挑戰總是存在的。面對這些挑戰，我們很謙虛。我們不能－過去的表現並不能保證未來的表現。作為一家以客戶為中心的公司，我們必須在組織中以更高的參與度和更高的能量水平開展工作。我們是一家多年來不斷轉型的公司，這一直是我們的目標，日常目標。

So I would like to thank you for your trust, and all the questions, quality questions. Your questions make us think maybe there is something that we can do differently. And as we say in our culture, we do not know everything, but we are going to work on it and we have a positive energy, positive attitude and optimistic. We are optimistic. It's another hundred years in the future. So we have a lot of work to do.

所以我要感謝您的信任，以及所有的問題，高品質的問題。您的問題讓我們思考也許我們可以做一些不同的事情。正如我們文化中所說，我們並不知道一切，但我們會努力去做，我們有積極的能量、積極的態度和樂觀的態度。我們很樂觀。那是再過一百年的未來了。所以我們還有很多工作要做。

And I wanted to thank you for taking part in this presentation and we will see you briefly. It is always going to be the guidance, dividends. We're going to discuss dividends where I expect positive news and also on the results of the fourth quarter.

我想感謝您參加這次演講，我們將簡短地見到您。它永遠是指導、紅利。我們將討論我預計會出現正面消息的股息以及第四季度的業績。

Thank you very much and see you next time.

非常感謝您，下次再見。

Statements in English on this transcript were spoken by an interpreter present on the live call. The interpreter was provided by the company sponsoring this event.

本筆錄中的英語陳述是由現場通話中的口譯員說出的。口譯員由贊助本次活動的公司提供。