FormFactor Inc (FORM) 2024 Q4 法說會逐字稿

Thank you, and welcome, everyone, to FormFactor's Fourth Quarter 2024 Earnings Conference Call.

感謝大家，歡迎大家參加 FormFactor 2024 年第四季財報電話會議。

On today's call are Chief Executive Officer, Mike Slessor; and Chief Financial Officer, Shai Shahar.

參加今天電話會議的有執行長 Mike Slessor；和財務長Shai Shahar。

Before we begin, Stan Finkelstein, company's VP of Investor Relations, will remind you of some important information.

在我們開始之前，公司投資者關係副總裁 Stan Finkelstein 將提醒您一些重要資訊。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Today, the company will be discussing GAAP P&L results and some important non-GAAP results intended to supplement your understanding of the company's financials.

今天，該公司將討論 GAAP 損益結果和一些重要的非 GAAP 結果，旨在補充您對公司財務狀況的了解。

Reconciliations of GAAP to non-GAAP measures and other financial information are available in the press release issued today by the company and on the Investor Relations section of our website.

公認會計準則與非公認會計準則指標的對帳表及其他財務資訊可在本公司今天發布的新聞稿中以及我們網站的投資者關係部分中找到。

Today's discussion contains forward-looking statements within the meaning of the federal securities laws.

今天的討論包含聯邦證券法意義內的前瞻性陳述。

Examples of such forward-looking statements include those with respect to the projections of financial and business performance, future macroeconomic and geopolitical conditions; the benefits of acquisitions and investments in capacity and in new technologies, the impact of global regional and national health crisis including the COVID-19 pandemic, anticipated industry trends, potential disruptions in our supply chain, the impacts of regulatory changes, including the recent U.S.-China trade restrictions the anticipated demand for products, our ability to develop, produce and sell products and the assumptions upon which such statements are based.

此類前瞻性陳述的例子包括有關財務和業務績效、未來宏觀經濟和地緣政治狀況的預測；在產能和新技術方面進行收購和投資的好處、包括 COVID-19 疫情在內的全球、區域和國家衛生危機的影響、預期的行業趨勢、我們供應鏈中的潛在中斷、監管變化的影響（包括最近的中美貿易限制）、預期的產品需求、我們開發、生產和銷售產品的能力以及這些聲明所基於的假設。

These statements are subject to known and unknown risks and uncertainties that could cause actual results to differ materially from those expressed during this call.

這些聲明受已知和未知的風險和不確定因素的影響，可能導致實際結果與本次電話會議中表達的結果有重大差異。

Information on risk factors and uncertainties is contained in our most recent filing on Form 10-K with the SEC for the fiscal year ended December 30, 2023, and in our other SEC filings, which are available on the SEC's website at www.sec.gov and in our press release issued today.

有關風險因素和不確定性的資訊包含在我們最近向美國證券交易委員會提交的截至 2023 年 12 月 30 日財政年度的 10-K 表格中，以及我們向美國證券交易委員會提交的其他文件中，這些文件可在美國證券交易委員會網站 www.sec.gov 和我們今天發布的新聞稿中查閱。

Forward-looking statements are made as of today, February 5, 2025, and we assume no obligation to update them.

前瞻性陳述截至 2025 年 2 月 5 日為止，我們不承擔更新這些陳述的義務。

With that, we will now turn the call over to FormFactor's CEO, Mike Slessor.

現在，我們將電話轉交給 FormFactor 的執行長 Mike Slessor。

Thanks, everyone, for joining us today.

感謝大家今天的參與。

As expected, FormFactor reported sequentially lower fourth quarter revenue, gross margin and non-GAAP earnings per share, driven by the forecasted reduction in foundry and logic probe card revenue.

如預期，FormFactor 報告第四季營收、毛利率和非 GAAP 每股盈餘環比下降，因為代工和邏輯探測卡收入預計會下降。

This was partially offset by growth in DRAM probe card revenue, which set a third consecutive quarterly record.

但 DRAM 探測卡收入的成長部分抵消了這一影響，DRAM 探測卡收入連續第三個季度創下紀錄。

Like most broad-based equipment and consumable suppliers to the semiconductor industry, FormFactor's fourth quarter and full year 2024 results reflect 2 very different market dynamics.

與半導體行業大多數廣泛的設備和消耗品供應商一樣，FormFactor 的 2024 年第四季和全年業績反映了兩種截然不同的市場動態。

On the one hand, the explosive growth of generative AI and high bandwidth memory, which more than quadrupled over 2023 and added $100 million in revenue for FormFactor.

一方面，生成式AI和高頻寬記憶體呈現爆炸性成長，到2023年將成長四倍以上，為FormFactor增加了1億美元的營收。

On the other hand, lackluster demand persisted in important high unit volume markets like client PCs and mobile handsets.

另一方面，客戶端個人電腦和行動手機等重要的高銷售市場需求持續低迷。

This overall theme is continuing in the first quarter of 2025 and we expect sequential reductions in demand for both non-HBM DRAM probe cards and systems.

這個總體主題將在 2025 年第一季繼續，我們預計非 HBM DRAM 探針卡和系統的需求將連續減少。

As we move through 2025, we do expect an overall increase in demand for FormFactor's products and I'll provide some more details on these growth areas later.

隨著我們進入 2025 年，我們確實預計 FormFactor 產品的需求將整體成長，稍後我將提供更多有關這些成長領域的詳細資訊。

Before diving into segments and market level details, I'd like to highlight 2 significant strategic developments that further strengthen FormFactor's leadership position in enabling the adoption of advanced packaging.

在深入探討細分市場和市場層面的細節之前，我想強調兩個重要的策略發展，它們將進一步加強 FormFactor 在採用先進封裝方面的領導地位。

Earlier today, we announced that together with MBK Partners, the largest private equity firm in North Asia, were acquiring FICT Limited, a leading supplier of complex multilayer organic substrates and printed circuit boards to semiconductor test and high-performance computing customers.

今天早些時候，我們宣布與北亞最大的私募股權公司MBK Partners聯合收購FICT Limited，後者是一家為半導體測試和高效能運算客戶提供複雜多層有機基板和印刷電路板的領先供應商。

This acquisition will solidify FormFactor's access to FICT's technologies and products, which are an important component of our advanced probe cards.

此次收購將鞏固 FormFactor 對 FICT 技術和產品的使用權，這些技術和產品是我們先進探針卡的重要組成部分。

And early last month, we announced technology partnership and share purchase agreements with Advantest Corporation, the market leader in automated test equipment.

上個月初，我們宣布與自動化測試設備市場領導者 Advantest Corporation 達成技術合作夥伴關係和股份購買協議。

These agreements build upon a multiyear collaboration between our companies, including FormFactor's 2020 purchase of Advantest probe card assets and the announcement last November to partner in developing wafer-level test cells for high-volume manufacturing of the silicon photonics integrated circuits used in co-packaged optics.

這些協議建立在我們兩家公司多年的合作基礎之上，包括 FormFactor 於 2020 年收購 Advantest 探針卡資產，以及去年 11 月宣布合作開發晶圓級測試單元，用於大批量生產共封裝光學器件中使用的矽光子集成電路。

With the rapid adoption of advanced packaging, wafer-level test is increasingly important to leading-edge semiconductor manufacturers, especially for their high-performance compute devices powering generative AI applications.

隨著先進封裝的快速應用，晶圓級測試對領先的半導體製造商來說越來越重要，尤其是對於支援生成性 AI 應用的高效能運算設備。

Our expanded partnerships with FICT and Advantest provide a platform to accelerate innovation and strengthen collaboration across the test and assembly supply chain, enabling us to work more closely together to meet the challenging technical and operational requirements driven by advanced packaging and high-performance compute.

我們與 FICT 和 Advantest 擴大的合作夥伴關係提供了一個加速創新和加強整個測試和組裝供應鏈協作的平台，使我們能夠更緊密地合作，以滿足先進封裝和高效能運算驅動的具有挑戰性的技術和營運要求。

Now let's turn to market and segment level details.

現在讓我們來討論市場和細分層面的細節。

As I mentioned, in the fourth quarter, we again delivered record DRAM probe card revenue with solid DDR5 demand paired with sequential growth in HBM.

正如我所提到的，在第四季度，我們再次實現了創紀錄的 DRAM 探測卡收入，這得益於 DDR5 的強勁需求和 HBM 的連續成長。

HBM increased to approximately half the record quarterly DRAM revenue, and we expect similar HBM levels in the first quarter.

HBM 成長至創紀錄的季度 DRAM 收入的約一半，我們預計第一季的 HBM 水準與此相似。

In the first quarter, we continue to experience the normal period of digestion following record mid-2024 shipments of probe cards for HBM3 and HBM3E production designs.

在第一季度，我們繼續經歷正常的消化期，此前 2024 年中期 HBM3 和 HBM3E 生產設計的探針卡出貨量創下了紀錄。

In addition, we now have a significant contribution from a second HBM customer, along with growing volumes of HBM4 designs.

此外，現在我們得到了第二位 HBM 客戶的重大貢獻，而 HBM4 設計的數量也不斷增加。

As a reminder, since probe cards are a device-specific consumable, that's customized to each individual customer chip design, production ramps of new chip designs generate demand for new probe cards and the transition to new HBM4 designs will produce significant growth for DRAM probe card demand as this ramp begins in the middle part of 2025.

提醒一下，由於探針卡是特定於設備的耗材，可以根據每個客戶的晶片設計進行定制，新晶片設計的生產爬坡會產生對新探針卡的需求，而向新 HBM4 設計的過渡將為 DRAM 探針卡需求帶來顯著增長，因為這種爬坡將於 2025 年中期開始。

We also expect some reduction in demand for non HBM probe cards during the current first quarter, caused primarily by the recent further tightening of export controls, which limit our ability to ship probe cards for advanced node DRAM designs to China.

我們也預計，目前第一季非 HBM 探針卡的需求將有所減少，這主要是由於最近進一步加強出口管制，限制了我們向中國運送用於先進節點 DRAM 設計的探針卡的能力。

As we discussed in the past, these export controls are a structural headwind that will continue to reduce our ability to serve customers in this region.

正如我們過去所討論的，這些出口管制是一種結構性阻力，將繼續削弱我們為該地區客戶提供服務的能力。

Shifting to the foundry and logic probe card market.

轉向代工和邏輯探測卡市場。

We experienced the anticipated fourth quarter reduction from the levels of the second and third quarter, and for the first time in many years, did not have a foundry and logic manufacturer as a 10% customer.

我們經歷了第四季度預期的較第二季度和第三季度水準的下降，並且多年來首次沒有代工廠和邏輯製造商作為 10% 的客戶。

In the first quarter, we expect foundry and logic demand to be similar to the fourth quarter as high unit volume end markets in which FormFactor has a strong competitive position, like mobile handsets and client PCs remain weak.

我們預計第一季代工和邏輯需求將與第四季度相似，因為 FormFactor 具有強大競爭地位的高銷售終端市場（如行動手機和客戶端個人電腦）仍然疲軟。

Like most industry participants, our view is that these end markets will return to growth at some point in 2025.

與大多數行業參與者一樣，我們認為這些終端市場將在 2025 年的某個時候恢復成長。

However, we have very limited visibility to the specific timing of the eventual recovery in either client PCs or mobile handsets because the lead times of our products are typically less than 1/4.

然而，我們對客戶端個人電腦或行動手機最終復甦的具體時間的預測非常有限，因為我們產品的交貨時間通常不到 1/4。

In the interim, we remain vigilant in managing our cost structure to maximize profitability at these reduced revenue levels while retaining sufficient capacity to ensure we can respond rapidly to meet customer demand when growth in foundry and logic returns.

在此期間，我們將繼續密切管理我們的成本結構，以在降低的收入水平下實現盈利能力最大化，同時保持足夠的產能，以確保當代工和邏輯業務恢復增長時，我們能夠迅速做出反應，滿足客戶需求。

The lower level of foundry and logic probe card demand, combined with robust levels for DRAM probe cards produce a challenging product mix.

代工和邏輯探測卡需求水準較低，加上 DRAM 探測卡需求水準強勁，產生了具有挑戰性的產品組合。

And it's this DRAM rich mix that is largely responsible for gross margins well below our target gross margin of 47% at $850 million of annual revenue.

正是這種富含 DRAM 的產品組合導致毛利率遠低於我們 8.5 億美元年收入 47% 的目標毛利率。

Although we do expect growth to return to the foundry and logic market, at the same time, we're executing multiple initiatives in both DRAM and foundry and logic to mitigate this mix effect and improve our gross margins.

雖然我們確實預期代工和邏輯市場將恢復成長，但同時，我們正在 DRAM 和代工及邏輯領域實施多項舉措，以減輕這種混合效應並提高我們的毛利率。

In DRAM, we've refreshed our product road map to include a new cost competitive architecture for non-HBM applications, which will be launched later this year while also extending the differentiated high-speed and temperature scaling performance of our SmartMatrix platform in HBM applications.

在 DRAM 方面，我們更新了產品路線圖，包括針對非 HBM 應用的具有成本競爭力的新型架構，該架構將於今年稍後推出，同時還將擴展我們的 SmartMatrix 平台在 HBM 應用中的差異化高速和溫度縮放性能。

In foundry and logic, we continue to expand and diversify FormFactor's market position, both through new customer qualifications and client PC and server applications and through new products that improve our competitive position in high-performance compute GPU applications.

在代工和邏輯領域，我們繼續擴大和多樣化 FormFactor 的市場地位，透過新的客戶資格和客戶端 PC 和伺服器應用程序，以及透過提高我們在高效能運算 GPU 應用程式方面的競爭地位的新產品。

We've made progress on both fronts recently and have now met all technical performance requirements in our qualification for a focused application with a fabless microprocessor manufacturer, and expect to complete the qualification in the first half of 2025.

我們最近在這兩個方面都取得了進展，現在已經滿足了無晶圓廠微處理器製造商的重點應用資格認證的所有技術性能要求，預計將在 2025 年上半年完成資格認證。

Turning to our Systems segment.

轉向我們的系統部分。

We delivered the expected sequential increase in fourth quarter revenue nearing the record levels of mid-2023, which included the FRT business we divested in the fourth quarter of 2023.

我們實現了第四季度營收預期的連續成長，接近 2023 年中期的創紀錄水平，其中包括我們在 2023 年第四季剝離的 FRT 業務。

Systems growth is driven by the rapid innovation of our customers in areas like quantum computing and high-performance compute, with development programs that require high-performance measurement systems like our CM300 lab probers and IQ 3000 cryogenic prober.

系統成長是由我們的客戶在量子運算和高效能運算等領域的快速創新所推動的，這些開發專案需要高效能測量系統，例如我們的 CM300 實驗室探測器和 IQ 3000 低溫探測器。

One of the exciting opportunities in the high-performance computing space is co-packaged optics using silicon photonics as our customers transition from development in the lab to pilot production volumes in the fab.

隨著我們的客戶從實驗室開發過渡到工廠的試生產，高效能運算領域的一個令人興奮的機會是使用矽光子學進行共封裝光學元件。

This is a key area of focus in our systems business, and we're leveraging our leadership position from the lab space, where we have an installed base of over 100 systems worldwide to the production arena where we now have multiple systems installed in leading customers' production facilities.

這是我們系統業務關注的一個重點領域，我們正在利用我們在實驗室領域的領導地位，我們在全球範圍內擁有超過 100 個系統的安裝基礎，到生產領域，我們目前已在領先客戶的生產設施中安裝了多個系統。

We expect co-packaged optics to begin to ramp in volume later this year and into 2026 as it offers compelling data center energy efficiency benefit, helping address one of the major economic and environmental challenges for the compute industry and providing a new growth vector for both our systems and probe card businesses.

我們預計共封裝光學元件的產量將在今年稍後和 2026 年開始增加，因為它提供了引人注目的資料中心能源效率優勢，有助於解決運算產業面臨的主要經濟和環境挑戰之一，並為我們的系統和探針卡業務提供新的成長方向。

In closing, we're continuing to strengthen FormFactor's industry and competitive position, both through development and differentiated products and through partnerships with leaders like Advantest and FICT.

最後，我們將透過開發和差異化產品以及與 Advantest 和 FICT 等領導者建立合作夥伴關係，繼續加強 FormFactor 的產業和競爭地位。

These internal and external initiatives are especially important and exciting as we meet the challenges of increased test intensity and higher test complexity associated with the adoption of advanced packaging in applications like high-bandwidth memory and co-packaged optics.

這些內部和外部措施尤其重要且令人興奮，因為我們面臨著在高頻寬記憶體和共封裝光學元件等應用中採用先進封裝所帶來的測試強度增加和測試複雜性提高的挑戰。

Successful execution of these and other initiatives will allow us to achieve and then surpass our target model that delivers $2 of non-GAAP earnings per share on $850 million of revenue.

成功執行這些和其他舉措將使我們能夠實現並超越我們的目標模式，即在 8.5 億美元的營收上實現每股 2 美元的非 GAAP 收益。

Shai, over to you.

謝伊，交給你了。

Thank you, Mike, and good afternoon.

謝謝你，麥克，下午好。

As you saw in our press release, Q4 revenues were $189.5 million, $0.5 million below the midpoint of our outlook range and non-GAAP gross margin of 40.2% was 0.8 percentage points below the midpoint of the range.

正如您在我們的新聞稿中看到的，第四季度營收為 1.895 億美元，比我們預期範圍的中點低 50 萬美元，非 GAAP 毛利率為 40.2%，比預期範圍的中點低 0.8 個百分點。

These, together with operating expenses slightly lower than the midpoint of the outlook, resulted in a non-GAAP EPS of $0.27, $0.02 below the midpoint of our outlook range.

這些因素加上略低於預期中位數的營運費用，導致非 GAAP 每股收益為 0.27 美元，比我們預期範圍的中位數低 0.02 美元。

Fourth quarter revenues decreased 9% from the all-time record revenues reached in the third quarter and increased 12.7% year-over-year from our Q4 '23 revenues.

第四季營收較第三季創下的歷史最高收入下降 9%，較 23 年第四季營收年增 12.7%。

For fiscal '24, we recorded revenues of $764 million, up 15.2% from $663 million in fiscal '23.

24 財年，我們營收 7.64 億美元，較 23 財年的 6.63 億美元成長 15.2%。

Almost all of this $100 million growth came from HBM revenues.

這 1 億美元的成長幾乎全部來自 HBM 的營收。

Probe card segment revenues were $150.3 million in the fourth quarter, a decrease of $21.9 million or 12.7% from the third quarter.

探測卡部門第四季營收為 1.503 億美元，較第三季減少 2,190 萬美元，降幅為 12.7%。

The decrease was driven by lower foundry and logic and flash revenues partially offset by a record high DRAM revenues.

下降的原因是由於代工、邏輯和快閃記憶體收入下降，但 DRAM 收入創歷史新高，部分抵消了這一下降趨勢。

For fiscal '24, we recorded probe card segment revenues of $626 million compared to $498 million in fiscal '23.

24 財年，我們的探測卡部門營收為 6.26 億美元，而 23 財年為 4.98 億美元。

The Systems segment revenues were $39.2 million in Q4, $3.4 million higher than the third quarter and comprised 20.7% of total company revenues, up from 17.2% in the third quarter.

系統部門第四季的營收為 3,920 萬美元，比第三季高出 340 萬美元，占公司總營收的 20.7%，高於第三季的 17.2%。

In fiscal '24, we recorded Systems segment revenues of $137.6 million, $27.6 million lower than the $165.2 million revenue in fiscal '23, which declined due to the sale of our FRT business during the fourth quarter of fiscal 2013.

在24財年，我們記錄的系統部門收入為1.376億美元，比23財年的1.652億美元低2760萬美元，收入下降的原因是2013財年第四季出售了FRT業務。

Within the probe card segment, Q4 foundry and logic revenues were $83 million, a 22.5% decrease from the third quarter.

在探針卡領域，第四季代工和邏輯收入為 8,300 萬美元，較第三季下降 22.5%。

Foundry and logic revenues decreased to 44% of total company revenues compared to 51.7% in the third quarter.

晶圓代工和邏輯電路收入占公司總收入的比例從第三季的 51.7% 下降至 44%。

DRAM revenues were a record $63.3 million in Q4, $3.1 million or 5.2% higher than the previous record that was set in the third quarter, an increase to 33.4% of total quarterly revenues as compared to 28.9% in the third quarter.

第四季 DRAM 營收達到創紀錄的 6,330 萬美元，比第三季創下的前紀錄高出 310 萬美元或 5.2%，佔季總營收的 33.4%，而第三季為 28.9%。

Within DRAM, HBM revenues increased slightly as expected from $29 million in Q3 to $32 million in the fourth quarter.

在 DRAM 領域，HBM 營收如預期般從第三季的 2,900 萬美元小幅成長至第四季的 3,200 萬美元。

HBM revenues for fiscal '24 totaled $126 million, and nearly $100 million increase in fiscal '23.

HBM 24 財年營收總計 1.26 億美元，23 財年營收增加近 1 億美元。

Flash revenues of $3.7 million in Q4 were down $0.9 million in the third quarter and were 1.9% of total revenues in Q4 as compared to 2.2% in Q3.

第四季的 Flash 營收為 370 萬美元，比第三季下降 90 萬美元，佔第四季總營收的 1.9%，而第三季為 2.2%。

GAAP gross margin for the fourth quarter was 38.8% as compared to 40.7% in Q3.

第四季 GAAP 毛利率為 38.8%，第三季為 40.7%。

Cost of revenues included $2.5 million of GAAP to non-GAAP reconciling items, which we outlined in our press release issued today and in the reconciliation table available in the Investor Relations section of our website.

收入成本包括 250 萬美元的 GAAP 與非 GAAP 調節項目，我們在今天發布的新聞稿中以及我們網站投資者關係部分提供的調整表中對此進行了概述。

GAAP gross margin for fiscal '24 was 40.3% compared to 39% in fiscal '23.

24 財年的 GAAP 毛利率為 40.3%，而 23 財年為 39%。

On a non-GAAP basis, gross margin for the fourth quarter was 40.2%, 2 percentage points lower than the 42.2% non-GAAP gross margin in Q3 [indiscernible] percentage points below the midpoint of our outlook.

以非公認會計準則計算，第四季的毛利率為 40.2%，比第三季的 42.2% 非公認會計準則毛利率低 2 個百分點，比我們預期的中點低 [音訊不清晰] 個百分點。

The decrease as compared to Q3 is driven by lower non-GAAP gross margins in both segments.

與第三季相比，毛利率下降是由於兩個部門的非 GAAP 毛利率下降。

Non-GAAP gross margin for fiscal '24 increased to 41.7% compared to 40.7% in fiscal '23.

24財年非公認會計準則毛利率從23財年的40.7%上升至41.7%。

Our probe card segment gross margin was 40% in the fourth quarter a decrease of 2.3 percentage points compared to 42.3% in Q3.

我們探針卡部門的毛利率在第四季為40%，較第三季的42.3%下降了2.3個百分點。

The decrease from Q3 was mainly a result of the decrease in revenue volume.

與第三季相比，下降主要是由於收入量的下降。

The decreases compared to the midpoint of the outlook range is attributable to lower utilization in line with lower production volumes.

與預期範圍中點相比，產量下降的原因是利用率下降伴隨產量下降。

Our Q4 Systems segment gross margin was 40.8% and a decrease of 0.7 percentage points compared to 41.5% gross margin in the prior quarter.

我們第四季系統部門的毛利率為 40.8%，較上一季的 41.5% 毛利率下降 0.7 個百分點。

Our GAAP operating expenses were $65.7 million for the fourth quarter as compared to $67 million in the third quarter.

我們第四季的 GAAP 營業費用為 6,570 萬美元，而第三季為 6,700 萬美元。

Non-GAAP operating expenses for the fourth quarter were $55.2 million or 29.1% of revenues as compared with $59.3 million or 28.5% of revenue in Q3.

第四季非公認會計準則營業費用為 5,520 萬美元，佔營收的 29.1%，而第三季為 5,930 萬美元，佔營收的 28.5%。

The $4.1 million decrease relates mainly to lower payroll taxes and lower performance-based compensation.

410萬美元的減少主要與工資稅降低和績效薪酬降低有關。

Company noncash expenses for the fourth quarter included $10.2 million for stock-based compensation, $1.3 million higher than in Q3 due to grant for features in the prior quarter that did not repeat, $0.7 million for the amortization of acquisition-related intangibles, similar to Q3 and depreciation of $8.1 million, slightly higher than in the third quarter.

該公司第四季的非現金支出包括 1,020 萬美元的股票薪酬，比第三季高出 130 萬美元，原因是上一季授予的功能沒有重複，收購相關無形資產攤銷 70 萬美元，與第三季相似，折舊 810 萬美元，略高於第三季。

GAAP operating income was $7.9 million for Q4 compared to $17.9 million in Q3.

第四季 GAAP 營業收入為 790 萬美元，而第三季為 1,790 萬美元。

Non-GAAP operating income for the fourth quarter was $20.9 million compared with $28.3 million in the third quarter, a decrease of $7.4 million or 26.3%.

第四季非公認會計準則營業收入為 2,090 萬美元，而第三季為 2,830 萬美元，減少 740 萬美元，降幅為 26.3%。

This reduction in operating income is due to lower revenues combined with lower gross margins, partially offset by the decrease in operating expenses.

營業收入的減少是由於收入減少和毛利率下降，但營業費用的減少部分抵消了這種影響。

GAAP net income for the fourth quarter was $9.7 million or $0.12 per fully diluted share compared with GAAP income of $18.7 million or $0.24 per fully diluted share in the previous quarter.

第四季 GAAP 淨收入為 970 萬美元，或每股攤薄收益 0.12 美元，而上一季 GAAP 淨收入為 1,870 萬美元，或每股攤薄收益 0.24 美元。

For fiscal '24, GAAP net income was $69.6 million or $0.89 per fully diluted share compared with a GAAP net income of $82.4 million or $1.05 per fully diluted share in fiscal '23.

24 財年，GAAP 淨收入為 6,960 萬美元，即每股攤薄收益 0.89 美元，而 23 財年的 GAAP 淨收入為 8,240 萬美元，即每股攤薄收益 1.05 美元。

The non-GAAP effective tax rate for the fourth quarter was 14.7%, a 1.3 percentage points increase from the 13.4% in the third quarter.

第四季非公認會計準則有效稅率為14.7%，較第三季的13.4%上升1.3個百分點。

For fiscal '24, the non-GAAP effective tax rate was 14.4%, at the low end of the previously communicated range of 14% to 18%.

24 財年，非 GAAP 有效稅率為 14.4%，處於先前公佈的 14% 至 18% 範圍的低端。

We expect a similar range in fiscal '25.

我們預計25財年也將出現類似的範圍。

Fourth quarter non-GAAP net income was $21.3 million or $0.27 per fully diluted share, down from $27.2 million or $0.35 per fully diluted share in Q3.

第四季非 GAAP 淨收入為 2,130 萬美元或每股攤薄收益 0.27 美元，低於第三季的 2,720 萬美元或每股攤薄收益 0.35 美元。

Non-GAAP net income for fiscal '24 was $90.2 million or $1.15 per fully diluted share compared with a non-GAAP net income of $56.8 million or $0.73 per fully diluted share in fiscal '23, an increase of 58% year-over-year.

24 財年非 GAAP 淨收入為 9,020 萬美元，即每股攤薄收益 1.15 美元，而 23 財年非 GAAP 淨收入為 5,680 萬美元，即每股攤薄收益 0.73 美元，年增 58%。

Moving to the balance sheet and cash flow.

轉向資產負債表和現金流量。

We generated free cash flow of $28.8 million in the fourth quarter compared to $20 million in Q3.

我們第四季的自由現金流為 2880 萬美元，而第三季為 2000 萬美元。

The main reasons for the increase were higher operating cash flows primarily driven by greater noncash expenses of $8 million, lower outflows for working capital of $10.2 million and CapEx lower by $1.3 million.

成長的主要原因是營運現金流增加，這主要是由於非現金支出增加 800 萬美元、營運資本流出減少 1,020 萬美元以及資本支出減少 130 萬美元。

Free cash flow for fiscal '24 increased to $83 million in comparison to $11.4 million in fiscal '23.

24財年的自由現金流從23財年的1,140萬美元增加至8,300萬美元。

We invested $7.7 million in capital expenditures during the fourth quarter compared to $8.9 million in Q3.

我們在第四季的資本支出為 770 萬美元，而第三季為 890 萬美元。

This brings our annual fiscal CapEx to $38.4 million within the expected range of $35 million to $45 million.

這使我們的年度財政資本支出達到 3840 萬美元，處於預期的 3500 萬美元至 4500 萬美元範圍內。

In fiscal '25, we expect a similar level of investment in capital expenditures.

在25財年，我們預期資本支出的投資水準將與此類似。

At quarter end, total cash and investments were $367 million, an increase of $6 million from Q3.

截至季末，現金和投資總額為 3.67 億美元，比第三季增加 600 萬美元。

At the end of the fourth quarter, we had 1 term loan with a balance totaling $13 million.

截至第四季末，我們有 1 筆定期貸款，餘額總計 1,300 萬美元。

Regarding stock buyback.

關於股票回購。

During the fourth quarter, we repurchased shares worth $16.1 million.

第四季度，我們回購了價值 1,610 萬美元的股票。

At quarter end, $20.5 million remained available for future purchases under the $75 million 2-year buyback program that was approved in Q4 '23.

截至季末，根據 23 年第四季批准的 7,500 萬美元兩年期回購計劃，仍有 2,050 萬美元可供未來購買。

Our capital allocation strategy has not changed and our share repurchase program goal is to offset dilution from stock-based compensation.

我們的資本配置策略沒有改變，我們的股票回購計畫目標是抵銷股票薪資的稀釋。

As we have communicated in the past, M&A is an important part of our capital allocation strategy.

正如我們過去所傳達的，併購是我們資本配置策略的重要組成部分。

As you saw in the press release, we are acquiring 20% of FICT for approximately $60 million.

正如您在新聞稿中看到的，我們將以約 6000 萬美元的價格收購 FICT 20% 的股份。

This transaction, which will be accounted for under the equity method is not expected to have a significant impact on our results of operations.

此項交易將以權益法核算，預計不會對我們的經營業績產生重大影響。

Let me also note that the share repurchase agreement we signed with Advantest earlier this quarter added $15 million to our strong balance sheet.

我還要指出的是，我們本季稍早與 Advantest 簽署的股票回購協議為我們強勁的資產負債表增加了 1,500 萬美元。

Turning to the first quarter non-GAAP outlook.

談到第一季非 GAAP 展望。

We expect Q1 revenues of $170 million, plus or minus $5 million, with the decrease in systems, flash and DRAM revenues.

我們預計第一季的營收為 1.7 億美元，上下浮動 500 萬美元，系統、快閃記憶體和 DRAM 收入將減少。

Foundry and logic revenues as well as HBM revenues within our DRAM revenues are expected to remain flat.

我們的 DRAM 收入中的代工和邏輯收入以及 HBM 收入預計將保持穩定。

This decline in revenues is expected to result in a lower non-GAAP gross margin of 38%, plus or minus 150 basis points.

預計收入下降將導致非 GAAP 毛利率下降 38%，上下浮動 150 個基點。

At the midpoint of these outlook ranges we expect Q1 operating expenses to be $51 million, plus or minus $2 million, approximately $4 million lower than Q4 mainly due to lower performance-based compensation.

在這些預期範圍的中間值中，我們預計第一季的營運費用為 5,100 萬美元，上下浮動 200 萬美元，比第四季低約 400 萬美元，這主要是由於基於績效的薪酬較低。

Non-GAAP earnings per fully diluted share for Q1 is expected to be $0.19 plus or minus $0.04.

預計第一季非 GAAP 每股攤薄收益為 0.19 美元，上下浮動 0.04 美元。

Finally, let me say a few words about our ongoing focus on profitability.

最後，讓我談談我們對獲利能力的持續關注。

As Mike noted, while we have benefited from robust growth in HBM due to the expansion in generative AI, we have also experienced soft demand in high unit volume markets like client PCs and mobile handsets.

正如 Mike 所說，雖然我們因生成式人工智慧的擴展而受益於 HBM 的強勁成長，但我們也經歷了客戶端 PC 和行動手機等高容量市場的需求疲軟。

While we expect this softness to persist at least through Q1, we continue to be attentive to our cost structure by making targeted adjustments to variable costs, allowing us to meet higher demand when growth returns to foundry and logic.

雖然我們預計這種疲軟至少會持續到第一季度，但我們會繼續關注我們的成本結構，對變動成本進行有針對性的調整，以便在代工和邏輯業務恢復增長時滿足更高的需求。

A reconciliation of our GAAP to non-GAAP Q1 outlook is available on the Investor Relations section of our website and in our press release issued today.

我們的網站的「投資者關係」部分以及我們今天發布的新聞稿中提供了我們的 GAAP 與非 GAAP 第一季展望的對帳表。

With that, let's open the call for questions.

現在，我們開始提問。

Operator?

操作員？

(Operator Instructions) Charles Shi from Needham & Company.

(操作員指示) Needham & Company 的 Charles Shi。

Hey, good afternoon.

嘿，下午好。

Mike, a couple of questions.

麥克，有幾個問題。

I think you provided segment color for your Q1 outlook, I think, Mike if you kind of unpack a little bit the foundry and logic, DRAM between non-HBM and HBM.

我認為您為第一季的展望提供了細分顏色，我認為，Mike，如果您能稍微解開一下代工廠和邏輯，非 HBM 和 HBM 之間的 DRAM。

And of course, you also mentioned about system and we will -- unpack that a little bit for us.

當然，您也提到了系統，我們將為您稍微解釋一下。

But I do want to specifically ask you about the non-HBM DRAM probe cards since it looks like you're anticipating a sequential reduction in demand.

但我確實想特別問您有關非 HBM DRAM 探測卡的問題，因為看起來您預計需求會連續減少。

But if I really back out CXMT, the China demand that was there before the export controls, if I back that out, your DRAM revenue, non-HBM DRAM, I think has been run rating at $1 million per quarter for almost two years, almost like there's no recovery in that part of the market.

但如果我真的退出 CXMT，即出口管制之前就存在的中國需求，如果我退出，那麼你們的 DRAM 收入，非 HBM DRAM，我認為已經以每季度 100 萬美元的評級運行了近兩年，幾乎就像該部分市場沒有復蘇一樣。

Mike, if you educate us a little bit of what's going on there and when could we see the outlook for that part of the market to turn a little bit more positive?

麥克，你能否向我們介紹那裡發生的情況，什麼時候我們才能看到該部分市場的前景變得更加樂觀？

Thanks.

謝謝。

Sure, Charles.

當然，查爾斯。

So as we bridge from Q4 to Q1, you've identified the biggest factor in the sequential decline between our Q4 results and our Q1 outlook, and that's non HBM DRAM.

因此，當我們從第四季度過渡到第一季時，您已經確定了導致我們第四季業績與第一季展望之間連續下滑的最大因素，那就是非 HBM DRAM。

We expect HBM DRAM to be approximately flat quarter-on-quarter.

我們預計 HBM DRAM 將與上一季基本持平。

And by far, the largest component of the non-HBM DRAM reduction in Q1, is associated with advanced DRAM probe cards shipping into China.

到目前為止，第一季非 HBM DRAM 減產的最大部分與運往中國的先進 DRAM 探測卡有關。

If you look at our results in the second half of 2024, you saw some significant growth there, and it was primarily associated with DRAM probe cards.

如果您查看我們 2024 年下半年的業績，您會看到一些顯著的成長，而且這主要與 DRAM 探測卡有關。

With the recent export controls that have gone into place from the U.S. Department of Commerce, we don't believe we can ship to those customers.

由於美國商務部最近實施的出口管制，我們認為我們無法向這些客戶出貨。

And as a result, we've taken our outlook for DRAM probe card revenue into China down to 0 in the Q1 outlook, and we'd expect to have that persist throughout the year unless there's some dramatic change.

因此，我們在第一季將 DRAM 探測卡在中國的收入預期下調至 0，並且我們預計這種情況將持續到全年，除非出現一些重大變化。

That's a pretty significant impact.

這影響相當大。

We were running in round numbers at about $10 million per quarter, with that customer with China DRAM and advanced probe cards.

我們每季的支出約為 1000 萬美元，該客戶擁有中國 DRAM 和先進的探針卡。

So that's definitely a headwind.

所以這無疑是個阻力。

Some of the other pieces, we often see seasonality in the systems business.

在其他一些方面，我們經常看到系統業務的季節性。

So a Q4 to Q1 step down is not all that unusual given our customers' budget cycles.

因此，考慮到我們客戶的預算週期，第四季至第一季的下滑並不罕見。

And then we see primarily a flat outlook Q4 to Q1 overall in the foundry and logic business.

然後我們看到代工和邏輯業務第四季與第一季整體前景持平。

There's a few moving parts underneath that with various customers and various projects, as there always is inside any segment.

這其中涉及幾個活動部件，包括不同的客戶和不同的項目，就像任何細分市場中都存在的那樣。

But by far, the biggest component causing the Q4 to Q1 sequential reduction is the removal of non-HBM DRAM into China.

但到目前為止，導致第四季與第一季環比下降的最大因素是中國撤出非 HBM DRAM。

Yeah, sorry, maybe I asked the question a little bit too long.

是的，抱歉，也許我的問題問得有點太長了。

But the, but the second part of the question I do want to repeat here in the non China, non HB.

但是，但是問題的第二部分我確實想在這裡重複一下，非中國，非 HB。

M, the rest the rest of the world, DRM, let's continue to call it non HB MD RM.

M，其餘世界其他地方，DRM，我們繼續稱之為非HB MD RM。

So primarily DDR five and some graphics DDR as well continues to operate at those cyclical low levels around $20 million a quarter.

因此，主要的 DDR5 和一些圖形 DDR 也繼續在每季 2000 萬美元左右的周期性低水平上運行。

And we don't see much activity there.

我們沒有看到那裡有太多的活動。

There's new designs as our customers continue to release and ramp in limited volume, especially associated with DDR five.

隨著我們的客戶繼續發布和增加有限數量的產品，我們有了新的設計，尤其是與 DDR 5 相關的設計。

But as you noted for the past couple of years that business has been operating at cyclical lows HBM continues to be the highlight in the D A pro business and really is what powered the three consecutive record for.

但正如您在過去幾年中註意到的那樣，業務一直處於週期性低谷，HBM 繼續成為 D A pro 業務的亮點，並且真正推動了連續三項創紀錄的實現。

Got it.

知道了。

Thank you.

謝謝。

I'll be back to the queue.

我會回到隊列。

Thanks.

謝謝。

Thanks.

謝謝。

Thank you.

謝謝。

And our next question comes from the line of Craig Ellis from B Riley Securities.

我們的下一個問題來自 B Riley Securities 的 Craig Ellis。

Your question, please.

請問您的問題。

Yeah, thanks for taking.

是的，謝謝你接受。

The question, Mike.

問題是，麥克。

I wanted to start off just with a higher level question.

我想從一個更高層次的問題開始。

I think over time as you and I have interacted on the business, one of the things we've talked about is the business being very product cycle and no transition dependent with its product demand and much less volume dependent.

我認為，隨著時間的推移，當您和我就業務進行互動時，我們談論的事情之一就是業務非常依賴產品週期，並且不依賴產品需求的轉變，也不太依賴數量。

And yet it seems like there is quite a bit of volume impacting the business as we exit 2024 and go into 2025.

然而，當我們離開 2024 年並進入 2025 年時，似乎有相當大的數量對業務產生了影響。

So can you just come back and kind of square that circle?

那你能回來把那個圓圈弄平嗎？

Why is it that volume is such a big impacting factor in the very near term here?

為什麼成交量在短期內會成為如此重要的影響因素？

Sure.

當然。

So for probe cards, the fundamental demand driver is new design releases by our customers.

因此對於探針卡來說，根本的需求驅動因素是客戶發布的新設計。

But those new design releases need to ramp in volume, Right?

但是這些新設計的發布需要增加數量，對嗎？

what drives the fundamental change from one set of probe cards to another is the design change or the mass set change, things like going from HBM3 to HBM4 or a node transition from 3-nanometer to 2-nanometer those things definitely drive probe card demand but also individual designs inside those nodes also drive proper demand.

推動從一組探針卡到另一組探針卡的根本變化的因素是設計變化或質量集變化，例如從 HBM3 到 HBM4 或從 3 奈米到 2 奈米的節點轉變，這些因素肯定會推動探針卡的需求，但這些節點內的個別設計也會推動適當的需求。

But the number of probe cards we sell, right, is dependent on the ramp volume associated with that.

但是，我們銷售的探針卡的數量取決於與之相關的產量。

How many test cells are going to need to run, each of them needs a probe card.

需要運行多少個測試單元，每個測試單元都需要一張探針卡。

And so it's both.

所以兩者皆有。

One thing that drives the refresh cycle, no question about it and why we're bullish about 2025 is things like the transition to HBM4, which we expect to drive growth in 2025 over 2024.

毫無疑問，推動更新周期的因素之一是向 HBM4 的過渡，我們之所以對 2025 年充滿信心，我們預計 HBM4 將在 2025 年而非 2024 年推動成長。

But we also need all of these things to ramp in volume.

但我們也需要所有這些東西的產量都大幅增加。

The wafer volume, the test cell volume drives the number of probe cards.

晶圓體積、測試單元體積決定探針卡的數量。

And so with markets like PC and mobile operating at continued cyclical lows, we're not getting the volume out of those markets that really drive the business.

因此，由於個人電腦和行動市場持續處於週期性低迷，我們無法從真正推動業務發展的市場中獲得銷售。

That's a book color.

那是一本書的顏色。

And then it's the follow up, which is a take up really on that last point.

然後是後續問題，其實是對最後一點的討論。

There's a large US customer that did not appear on the 10% list in the fourth quarter.

有一家大型美國客戶在第四季沒有出現在 10% 名單中。

And from time to time, they just go through a period of probe card digestion.

有時，他們只是經歷一段探測卡消化期。

Can you address to what extent was that play versus the demand levels in the prior couple of quarters versus their own share loss that may be impacting the volumes that would drive business form or other issues?

您能否解釋一下，與前幾季的需求水準相比，這種表現與他們的市場份額損失相比，在多大程度上可能影響到銷量，從而推動業務形式或其他問題？

Thank you, Mike.

謝謝你，麥克。

Yeah, I think it's fair to say that we see fairly broad based weakness across founder and logic, but certainly our microprocessor business, as you noted is especially weak in the fourth quarter.

是的，我認為可以公平地說，我們看到創始人和邏輯業務都存在相當普遍的疲軟，但正如您所說，我們的微處理器業務在第四季度尤其疲軟。

You know, no founder and logic customer, including our large microprocessor company appeared as 10% of revenue.

你知道，沒有任何一位創辦人和邏輯客戶，包括我們的大型微處理器公司，佔了營收的 10%。

And so I think that's indicative of, of the weakness there.

所以我認為這表明了那裡存在弱點。

You know, as we look at some of the initiatives for the company, obviously that raises the importance increases the importance of something we've been committed to for a long time.

你知道，當我們審視公司的一些舉措時，顯然我們長期致力於的事情的重要性得到了提升。

And that's making sure we're qualified at all the leading customers across the industry Now, you've heard from all the customers in the X 86 space, that client PC is awfully weak.

這是為了確保我們能夠滿足整個行業所有主要客戶的要求。

So I don't know that that would have made a really big difference to either our Q4 or Q1 outlook, but it remains a strategic imperative for us to qualify and be competing for business at all major customers.

因此，我不知道這是否會對我們的第四季度或第一季的前景產生重大影響，但這仍然是我們獲得資格並競爭所有主要客戶的業務的戰略要務。

And as I said in the prepared remarks, we're making some good progress there and expect those things to positively impact form factors growth in 2025.

正如我在準備好的演講中所說，我們在那裡取得了一些良好進展，並預計這些事情將對 2025 年的形式因素成長產生積極影響。

Thanks for that, Mike.

謝謝你，麥克。

Thank you.

謝謝。

And our next question comes from the line of Brian Chin from Steve your question, please.

下一個問題來自史蒂夫的 Brian Chin，請回答您的問題。

Hi.

你好。

Hi there.

你好呀。

Well, I guess, in terms of the statement that you do expect an overall increase in demand as we move through the year, it sounds like, like you're saying that you do think HBM will be one of those drivers sequentially through the year.

嗯，我想，就您確實預計隨著我們度過這一年，需求總體會增長的說法而言，聽起來，您確實認為 HBM 將成為全年持續增長的驅動因素之一。

And when you think about the foundry logic business, is it reasonable to expect that even last year was not exactly a banner year in terms of phone and PC unit sales, for example.

當您考慮代工邏輯業務時，是否有理由預計，即使去年在手機和個人電腦銷售方面也並不是豐收的一年？

But there was release of new designs and levels of seasonality in production.

但已經發布了新的設計並且生產的季節性水平。

Would it be reasonable to expect that you can get back to sort of that $100 million a quarter kind of run rate in foundry logic if we have a similar kind of profile this year?

如果我們今年的狀況與去年類似，那麼預期代工邏輯的運作率能回到每季約 1 億美元嗎？

And that's also incorporating, I guess, some of the progress you're seeing in terms of fabulous microprocessor and GPU?

我想，這也包括您在微處理器和 GPU 方面所看到的一些進步吧？

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

I think that if I look at 2025 overall and the reason we're confident in growth HBM and the transition to HBM four is definitely one component.

我認為，如果我總體看待 2025 年，我們對 HBM 成長和向 HBM 4 過渡充滿信心的原因肯定是其中一個因素。

We're going to hire layer stacks which amplifies the test intensity going from 8 to 12 to 16 stacks and then the higher test fees amplify the test complexity.

我們將採用層堆疊，從而將測試強度從 8 堆疊放大到 12 堆疊到 16 堆疊，然後更高的測試成本會增加測試的複雜性。

Those things historically have always ramped up test spending and we saw it in 2024 with HBM three and HBM three.

從歷史上看，這些因素總是會增加測試支出，我們在 2024 年看到了 HBM 3 和 HBM 3 的出現。

I think if we look at foundry and logic, it's certainly reasonable to assume a return to the -- let's call it, 100 million-ish levels with some activity associated with a PC refresh cycle, more activity and higher unit volumes of these new designs in PC and mobile.

我認為，如果我們看一下代工和邏輯，那麼肯定有理由假設會回到——我們稱之為 1 億左右的水平，其中一些活動與 PC 更新周期有關，PC 和移動設備上這些新設計的活動更多、單位產量更高。

And so I think that's a reasonable place to think about the foundry and logic business returning with some FormFactor specific drivers being qualifications at some of these new customers adding to revenue and balancing and diversifying the overall customer base.

因此，我認為，這是一個合理的想法，即代工和邏輯業務的回歸，一些 FormFactor 特定的驅動程式將成為一些新客戶的資格，從而增加收入，平衡和多樣化整體客戶群。

Okay.

好的。

Great.

偉大的。

And maybe asking about the FICT acquisition.

或許也會詢問有關 FICT 收購的情況。

I guess it sounds like they've been a key supplier to you historically.

我想這聽起來好像他們一直以來都是您的主要供應商。

And in terms of the motivation here, is this reflective of just how fast those product cycle road maps are moving in the AI data center arena and kind of that need to sort of exert some influence over key ecosystem partners, maybe still with an eye towards not fully internalizing or verticalizing some of these partners?

就這裡的動機而言，這是否反映了這些產品週期路線圖在人工智慧資料中心領域的發展速度有多快，以及需要對關鍵生態系統合作夥伴施加一定的影響，也許仍然著眼於不完全內化或垂直化其中一些合作夥伴？

Yeah.

是的。

I think that's a good way to characterize one of the objectives.

我認為這是描述其中一個目標的好方法。

FICT has been a very important supplier to us and the overall probe card industry over the years and remains so.

多年來，FICT 一直是我們和整個探針卡行業非常重要的供應商，現在仍然如此。

And with the accelerating complexity associated with high-performance compute and what our customers are asking us to do, we felt like we wanted a larger influence for that important supplier.

隨著高效能運算的複雜性不斷增加以及客戶對我們要求的工作日益增加，我們覺得我們希望對這個重要的供應商產生更大的影響力。

The structure we executed here with MBK Partners allows us to have that influence in that closer coupling without taking on all of the financial and execution risk of a full cross-border acquisition.

我們與 MBK Partners 共同實施的結構使我們能夠在更緊密的結合中發揮影響力，而無需承擔全面跨境收購的所有財務和執行風險。

So we think this is a good step forward to both solidify the supply chain, our supply chain but also offer us some increased access into advanced packaging.

因此，我們認為這是一個很好的進步，不僅鞏固了我們的供應鏈，也為我們提供了更多進入先進封裝領域的機會。

Runs a similar theme to some of the partnership announcements you've seen from Advantest, Advantest investing in us in and one of our competitors.

與您從 Advantest 看到的一些合作公告類似，Advantest 對我們和我們的競爭對手之一進行了投資。

Technoprobe investing -- or Teradyne investing in one of our competitors, you see these closer couplings across the industry just because of the complexity of what customers are requiring of us and the speed with which you need to deliver that complexity.

Technoprobe 投資——或者 Teradyne 投資我們的一個競爭對手，你會看到整個行業之間的聯繫更加緊密，這是因為客戶對我們的要求非常複雜，而我們需要以極快的速度來滿足這種複雜性。

Okay, great.

好的，太好了。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Thank you.

謝謝。

And our next question comes from the line of David Duley from Steelhead Securities.

我們的下一個問題來自 Steelhead Securities 的 David Duley。

Your question, please.

請問您的問題。

Yeah, thanks for taking my questions.

是的，感謝您回答我的問題。

I guess I have a couple as far as the HBM outlook goes.

我想就 HBM 觀點而言我有幾個看法。

So I think I heard you say you have designs in hand or you should have revenue in hand from two customers, more significant revenue from two customers now.

所以我想我聽到你說你手邊有設計或你應該從兩個客戶那裡獲得收入，現在從兩個客戶那裡獲得的收入更為可觀。

So you have, does that mean you have two customers ramping up in HBM four?

那麼，這是否意味著您有兩位客戶正在加大 HBM 4 的投資？

Well, we've got a mix of HBM3 and HBM4, but I think the point you're keying on that we now have a significant contribution in our HBM revenue from a second customer is correct, right?

嗯，我們有 HBM3 和 HBM4 的混合，但我認為你所關注的觀點，即我們現在從第二個客戶那裡獲得了對我們 HBM 收入的重大貢獻，這是正確的，對嗎？

So I want to make sure that doesn't get lost.

所以我想確保它不會丟失。

Our HBM revenue is still mirrors pretty well our end customers' HBM market share in the end market.

我們的 HBM 收入仍然很好地反映了我們的最終客戶在終端市場的 HBM 市場份額。

Dominated by one, a second customer coming up and taking more share and producing more volume.

在一家客戶主導的情況下，第二家客戶逐漸崛起，佔據更多的份額，生產更多的產品。

And the third one, we expect -- we're qualified and competing at all 3 of these.

對於第三項，我們預計——我們已經具備資格並可以參加所有這三項比賽。

But our share, again, our contributions reflect their shares in the end market.

但是我們的份額，我們的貢獻反映了他們在終端市場的份額。

But we've now added a significant second component to our HBM revenue in both HBM3 and HBM4.

但現在我們在 HBM3 和 HBM4 中為 HBM 收入增加了重要的第二個組成部分。

So it's still a mix.

因此它仍然是一種混合體。

But we really expect HBM4 to ramp in significant volume as we go through the middle part of 2025.

但我們確實預計，到 2025 年中期，HBM4 的銷量將大幅增加。

Okay.

好的。

And then I was curious, when you talk about qualifying new customers, I'm assuming one of those is the CPU customer that you don't have.

然後我很好奇，當您談到合格的新客戶時，我假設其中一個是您沒有的 CPU 客戶。

And then I think you've probably got qualifications or business in hand with the hyperscalers?

然後我認為您可能已經獲得了超大規模企業的資格或業務？

Could you elaborate a little bit more on what's going on with the hyperscalers?

能否進一步詳細說明超大規模資料中心的情況？

Yeah.

是的。

So this is an interesting new business.

這是一項有趣的新業務。

These are generally these custom Asics that the hyperscalers are developing in house, sometimes with a design partner, sometimes directly with the foundry.

這些通常是超大規模企業內部開發的客製化 Asics，有時與設計合作夥伴合作，有時直接與代工廠合作。

And, and we've got good engagement there.

而且我們在那裡的參與度很好。

A couple of projects that we're shipping the initial designs for here in the first quarter.

我們將在第一季交付幾個項目的初步設計。

But that's also a business that we expect to strengthen as we go through the year and kind of a new component of the overall probe card business.

但這也是我們希望在今年加強的一項業務，也是整個探測卡業務的新組成部分。

We used to just either deliver to the ID MS or the foundries.

我們過去只是將產品交付給 ID MS 或鑄造廠。

Here's a case where the hyperscaler are taking these new chip designs, mostly custom Asics for A I applications and starting to develop that silicon themselves.

在這種情況下，超大規模企業正在採用這些新的晶片設計，主要是針對人工智慧應用的客製化 Asics，並開始自行開發矽片。

And so a new growth area for us, one that I wouldn't say is going to materially affect us in the first half.

所以這是我們的一個新的成長領域，但我不會說它會在上半年對我們產生實質影響。

But we're we're laying the groundwork to make sure as those new designs ramp as we go through 2025 that we're in a strong incumbent position to capitalize on these on these new opportunities.

但我們正在奠定基礎，以確保隨著這些新設計在 2025 年的推出，我們能夠佔據有利地位，利用這些新機會。

Okay?

好的？

And just to follow on to that I'm just kind of curious.

只是為了繼續追問下去，我只是有點好奇。

As far as inside your family logic business, I'm sure that's where you find the networking piece.

就您的家族邏輯業務而言，我相信您會在那裡找到網路部分。

I think you have exposure to, you know, the Avago food chain there and perhaps the NVIDIA food chain.

我認為您接觸過那裡的 Avago 食品鏈，也許還有 NVIDIA 食品鏈。

Could you just talk about what you're seeing in networking?

您能談談您在網路中看到的情況嗎？

Yeah.

是的。

Networking.

聯網。

We do have good exposure there.

我們在那裡確實有很好的曝光率。

And that is an area where, with those customers has offered some pretty significant growth over the past several quarters.

在過去幾個季度中，這些客戶在這一領域實現了相當顯著的成長。

Part of it is due to their product strategies, for example, you see some of these customers selling things like GP us together with the networking components.

部分原因在於他們的產品策略，例如，你會看到一些客戶將 GP 產品與網路元件一起銷售。

And so the system level view that our customers are taking kind of drags along the networking chips to some with some of the higher value GPUS.

因此，從系統層面來看，我們的客戶正在將網路晶片拖向一些具有更高價值的 GPU。

And that's caused those volumes to grow significantly and their product road maps to accelerate significantly as high performance computes go to this one year road map cadence.

隨著高效能運算進入這一年路線圖節奏，這導致了其數量大幅增長，其產品路線圖也顯著加速。

So the networking business, although it's, not at the volumes of something like HBM continues to be a strong and growing part of our overall, our overall foundry and logic business despite the weakness in areas like DC.

因此，儘管網路業務的規模不如 HBM 那麼大，但它仍然是我們整體代工和邏輯業務中強勁且不斷增長的一部分，儘管在 DC 等領域表現疲軟。

Okay.

好的。

So it kind of sounds like, you'll have a second half ramp in multiple different markets.

所以這聽起來像是，你將在多個不同的市場迎來下半年的成長。

And I guess I would assume that Q1 is going to be the bottom of revenue in this calendar year.

我認為第一季將是今年收入的最低點。

That that's certainly the way we currently see it.

這確實是我們目前的看法。

And if I point you back to 2024 we saw a very similar Q1, I'm not going to imprint seasonality on this.

如果我回顧 2024 年，我們會看到非常相似的第一季度，我不會將季節性因素加於其上。

But, you know, there are often lumpiness in this business as things go through different product cycles and ramp cycles.

但是，您知道，隨著產品經歷不同的產品週期和成長週期，這個行業經常會出現一些波動。

And I'd take you back to 12 months ago where we had a very similar, similar Q1 and grew significantly over that.

回顧 12 個月前，當時我們的第一季業績非常相似，而且實現了顯著成長。

Remember in 2024 we grew the top line 15% over 2023.

請記住，2024 年我們的營收比 2023 年成長了 15%。

I'm not suggesting that we're going to grow at 15% again.

我並不是說我們將再次實現 15% 的成長。

But all of these factors, whether it's HBM four PC recovery, some of the new customer qualifications we do expect to drive year over year, top line growth form factor.

但所有這些因素，無論是 HBM 四核心 PC 的復甦，還是一些新客戶的資格，我們確實預計會推動營收年增。

(Operator Instructions) Krish Sankar from TD Cowen.

（操作員指示）TD Cowen 的 Krish Sankar。

Hi, this is Robert Mertens online for Chris.

你好，我是 Chris 的 Robert Mertens。

Thanks for taking my questions.

感謝您回答我的問題。

One just could you provide a bit more color on what you're seeing within the systems business?

您能否詳細介紹一下您在系統業務中看到的情況？

The last three quarters have done quite well with you know, sin photonics being highlighted, but I know there are a lot of other R&D driven portions of that business, whether it's looking carbide or, or quantum.

過去三個季度表現相當不錯，其中光子學特別突出，但我知道該業務還有很多其他由研發驅動的部分，無論是碳化物還是量子。

But looking at the March outlook, could you just sort of partition how much maybe due to typical seasonality versus near term that my indigestion and then just further out in the year, if there are any sort of areas within within that business, that would be the most meaningful drivers to growth.

但是，回顧 3 月的展望，您能否區分出在多大程度上可能是由於典型的季節性因素，還是在短期內導致的消化不良，以及在一年內進一步發展，如果該業務中存在任何領域，那將是最有意義的增長驅動力。

Yeah, so the system segment often does have this this seasonality again because of our customers annual budgeting process, often their fiscal years and calendar years align.

是的，因此係統部分通常會再次出現這種季節性，因為我們客戶的年度預算流程，通常他們的財政年度和日曆年度是一致的。

One of the things that's really got us excited in the system segment is the transition of silicon photonics and co package optics to pilot production.

在系統領域真正讓我們興奮的事情之一是矽光子學和共封裝光學元件向試點生產的轉變。

This is in an area where we've been engaged in the lab with leading customers for a long time and have an installed base of over 100 systems and we're leveraging that knowhow and those customer relationships to work with partners like Advantest to drive this to high volume production.

在這個領域，我們長期與領先的客戶在實驗室中合作，並擁有超過 100 個系統的安裝基礎，我們正在利用這些專業知識和客戶關係與 Advantest 等合作夥伴合作，推動其實現大批量生產。

We expect that to start to happen in the second half of 2025.

我們預計這將在 2025 年下半年開始實現。

We're working very actively with customers with found right now on making sure we're ready for that ramp.

我們目前正在與客戶積極合作，以確保我們已為此做好準備。

I think if you interpolate our customers' road maps, it's probably really a 2026 volume event, but we definitely see some growth there.

我認為，如果你插入我們客戶的路線圖，它可能真的是 2026 年的產量事件，但我們肯定會看到一些成長。

I think the other one to highlight is quantum, right?

我認為另一個要強調的是量子，對嗎？

It it's probably again, not a 2025 event, but we're trying to build a leadership position in test and measurement for the quantum computing industry.

這可能不是 2025 年發生的事件，但我們正在努力在量子運算產業的測試和測量領域建立領導地位。

It's in an investment phase right now for us and for the overall industry and we are seeing some interesting opportunities and growth prospects there.

對於我們和整個產業來說，現在正處於投資階段，我們看到了一些有趣的機會和成長前景。

The overall systems, business growth is going to be driven by those factors.

整個系統和業務成長將由這些因素推動。

But also our customers continued investment in innovation in R&D in things like high power in things like new silicon nodes.

但我們的客戶也持續對新矽節點等高功率領域的研發創新進行投資。

It's a very broad based business, but I think probably the most exciting tangible growth opportunity in 2025 and into 2026 is co package optics and silicon photonics.

這是一項基礎非常廣泛的業務，但我認為 2025 年和 2026 年最令人興奮的實際成長機會可能是共封裝光學和矽光子學。

Right?

正確的？

That that's very helpful and then maybe just if I can sneak one more and I know we've gone over the high bandwidth memory quite a bit.

這非常有幫助，然後也許如果我可以再偷偷地做一次，我知道我們已經相當多地超出了高頻寬記憶體。

But it looks like maybe the D AM probe cards could benefit in the second half margin wise with new nonhigh with memory probe cards being introduced.

但看起來，隨著​​新型非高內存探測卡的推出，D AM 探測卡可能在下半年受益於利潤。

But have you ever given out a breakdown sort of between what the margins of high bandwidth memory are versus more the traditional DDR designs?

但是，您是否曾經詳細分析過高頻寬記憶體與傳統 DDR 設計之間的優缺點？

I will take this one.

我要這個。

We didn't specify the differences between HBM gross margins and other DRAM gross margins.

我們沒有具體說明HBM毛利率與其他DRAM毛利率的差異。

But we did say that HBM revenue because the cards are differentiated because our technology there is unique is -- has higher margins within the DRAM gross margin family.

但我們確實說過，由於 HBM 卡具有差異化，而且我們的技術獨一無二，因此在 DRAM 毛利率系列中利潤率更高。

Not all the way up to the foundry and logic gross margin, although it could be similar or equal to some low-end foundry and logic design gross margin.

並非一直達到代工和邏輯毛利率，儘管它可能與一些低端代工和邏輯設計的毛利率相似或相等。

Okay.

好的。

Got it.

知道了。

Thank you.

謝謝。

That's helpful.

這很有幫助。

That's all for me.

對我來說這就是全部了。

Thank you.

謝謝。

And our next question comes from the line of Thomas Diffely from D.A Davidson.

我們的下一個問題來自 D.A Davidson 的 Thomas Diffely。

Your question, please.

請問您的問題。

Yeah, good afternoon.

是的，下午好。

Thank you for the questions.

感謝您的提問。

Shai just following up on that previous question, if you see Foundry logic and maybe microprocessors being a smaller percentage of the business going forward.

Shai 只是跟進前面的問題，如果您認為代工廠邏輯和微處理器在未來的業務中所佔的比例會更小的話。

How impactful would that be to your kind of corporate gross margin going forward?

這對貴公司未來的毛利率會有多大影響？

So it's a good reminder that we are committed to our target model.

所以這很好地提醒了我們，我們致力於我們的目標模型。

Our target model is 47% gross margin at $850 million of revenue.

我們的目標模式是，營收達到 8.5 億美元，毛利率達到 47%。

But we are currently delivering revenues with a very different mix than when we put our target model in place.

但我們目前的收入組合與我們實施目標模型時有很大不同。

Now there are a few things that we are working on to improve that together with a few things that really needs to happen in the industry for us to achieve the target model gross margin.

現在，我們正在努力做一些事情來改善這種情況，同時也致力於業界中真正需要發生的一些事情，以便我們可以實現目標模型毛利率。

We are developing, as Mike mentioned in the prepared remarks, a lower-cost DRAM architecture that can improve the DRAM gross margin, bring it closer to the foundry and logic margin.

正如 Mike 在準備好的演講中提到的那樣，我們正在開發一種低成本的 DRAM 架構，可以提高 DRAM 毛利率，使其更接近代工和邏輯利潤。

We're also targeting a higher market share in the higher-margin foundry and logic market.

我們也瞄準利潤率更高的代工和邏輯市場，佔據更高的市場份額。

And we also have a few internal initiatives to improve margins all targeting improving the margins across the different products.

我們也採取了一些內部措施來提高利潤率，旨在提高不同產品的利潤率。

But an important part is we need the overall end markets to recover since we need the higher volume to achieve our target model.

但重要的是我們需要整體終端市場復甦，因為我們需要更高的銷售量來實現我們的目標模式。

Okay.

好的。

That seems to make sense.

這似乎有道理。

And switching gears here, Mike, when you look at the acquisition, FICT, is the main thrust there just to keep an uninterrupted supply or maybe exclusivity of what you're currently getting?

麥克，讓我們換個話題，當您考慮收購 FICT 時，其主要目的是否僅僅是為了保持不間斷的供應，或者是保持目前所獲得產品的獨家供應？

Or is it really to kind of mold or bend the work going forward to what you really need to have to happen?

或者它真的是為了塑造或改變工作，使之朝著你真正需要的方向發展？

It's much more the latter.

後者的情況更為明顯。

If we wanted exclusivity and vertical integration, we would have bought the whole thing.

如果我們想要獨家經營和垂直整合，我們就會收購整個業務。

This is more about partnering to accelerate our product road map, FICT's product road map and as I said in response to one of the other questions, really make sure we're meeting the challenges associated with high-performance compute on the accelerating road map that high-performance compute is on.

這更多的是關於合作以加速我們的產品路線圖，FICT 的產品路線圖，正如我在回答另一個問題時所說的那樣，真正確保我們在高效能運算的加速路線圖上應對與高效能運算相關的挑戰。

So the company is going to operate independently.

因此該公司將獨立運作。

We'll obviously have a seat at the table with a 20% ownership stake.

我們顯然將擁有 20% 的所有權。

But our goal is to grow that business and better align their future product road map with ours to produce more competitive products for FormFactor.

但我們的目標是發展業務，並使他們未來的產品路線圖與我們的路線圖更好地保持一致，為 FormFactor 生產更具競爭力的產品。

And so when you look at the design cycles for those type of products, if you get involved today, is that for products that are one, two years out then?

那麼當您查看該類產品的設計週期時，如果您今天參與其中，那麼這是否適用於一、兩年後的產品？

Yeah, I mean, there's, there's two design cycles nested inside each other.

是的，我的意思是，有兩個設計週期相互嵌套。

There's if you like an architectural design cycle where we're meeting maybe requirements for let's call it one nanometer logic.

如果你喜歡架構設計週期，我們可能會滿足稱之為一奈米邏輯的要求。

But inside that, there's a whole bunch of multiple designs that need to be customized.

但其中，有大量的設計需要客製化。

And the integration between F IC TS products and our products is a much higher frequency design cycle.

並且F IC TS產品與我們產品的整合是一個更高頻率的設計週期。

So 1 to 2 years for that one nanometer transition if you like but much tighter cycles for collaborating on the individual customer design.

因此，如果你願意的話，一奈米的轉變需要 1 到 2 年的時間，但對於單一客戶設計的協作週期則要緊湊得多。

So we should be able to exert some impact on this as we go through 2025.

因此，在 2025 年到來之際，我們應該能夠對此產生一些影響。

Great.

偉大的。

Thank you.

謝謝。

For your time.

為了您的時間。

Christian Schwab from Craig-Hallum.

來自 Craig-Hallum 的 Christian Schwab。

Hey guys that I had a question on high bandwidth memory.

嘿夥計們，我有一個關於高頻寬記憶體的問題。

There's varying third-party research on growth rate, but the one, I guess, I'm looking at 26%.

關於成長率，第三方研究各不相同，但我猜我看到的是 26%。

Given increased capital intensity on HBM4, if that 26% is accurate, is it safe to assume that high bandwidth memory should grow even faster than that in '25 over '24?

考慮到 HBM4 的資本密集度增加，如果 26% 是準確的，那麼是否可以安全地假設高頻寬記憶體的成長速度應該比 25 年比 24 年更快？

Yeah, Christian, I think that's a fair assumption, right?

是的，克里斯蒂安，我認為這是一個合理的假設，對嗎？

When you look at the dynamics of moving from HBM3 to HBM4, more layers, and that means higher test intensity.

當您觀察從 HBM3 移動到 HBM4 的動態時，會發現層數更多，這意味著測試強度更高。

We've already seen that in the move from HBM2 to HBM3 to HBM3E.

我們已經看到了從 HBM2 到 HBM3 再到 HBM3E 的轉變。

And you can see that we added over $100 million in revenue associated with HBM in 2024.

您可以看到，我們在 2024 年增加了與 HBM 相關的 1 億美元收入。

So a good proof point there.

這是一個很好的證明點。

I think the other piece that goes into it is complexity, and complexity in moving from HBM3 to HBM4 really is higher test speeds, higher chip clock rates, which are a more complex probe card and a more valuable probe card.

我認為另一個因素是複雜性，從 HBM3 轉向 HBM4 的複雜性實際上在於更高的測試速度、更高的晶片時脈頻率，這是一個更複雜的探測卡和更有價值的探測卡。

So we do expect that we're going to be able to outgrow the overall HBM industry when it's in this phase of ramping quickly with high complexity and the need for our customers to push parts of the door.

因此，我們確實期望，當 HBM 行業處於快速發展、複雜性不斷提高且需要我們的客戶推動部分業務發展的階段時，我們將能夠超越整個 HBM 行業。

Great.

偉大的。

No other questions.

沒有其他問題。

Thank you.

謝謝。

(Operator Instructions) I'd like to hand the program back to Mike session for any further remarks.

（操作員指示）我想將程式交還給 Mike，以便進行進一步的評論。

All right.

好的。

Thanks everybody for joining us today.

感謝大家今天的參加。

We'll talk to you soon.

我們很快就會和你談話。

Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for your participation in today's conference.

女士們、先生們，感謝大家參加今天的會議。

This does conclude the program.

該計劃確實結束了。

You may now disconnect.

您現在可以斷開連線。

Good day.

再會。