FormFactor Inc (FORM) 2024 Q4 法說會逐字稿

Thank you, and welcome, everyone, to FormFactor's fourth quarter 2024 earnings conference call. On today's call are Chief Executive Officer, Mike Slessor; and Chief Financial Officer, Shai Shahar.

感謝大家，歡迎參加 FormFactor 2024 年第四季財報電話會議。參加今天電話會議的有執行長 Mike Slessor 和財務長 Shai Shahar。

Before we begin, Stan Finkelstein, the company's VP of Investor Relations, will remind you of some important information.

在我們開始之前，公司投資者關係副總裁 Stan Finkelstein 將提醒您一些重要資訊。

Thank you. Today, the company will be discussing GAAP P&L results and some important non-GAAP results intended to supplement your understanding of the company's financials. Reconciliations of GAAP to non-GAAP measures and other financial information are available in the press release issued today by the company and on the Investor Relations section of our website.

謝謝。今天，該公司將討論 GAAP 損益結果和一些重要的非 GAAP 結果，旨在補充您對公司財務狀況的了解。公認會計準則 (GAAP) 與非公認會計準則 (Non-GAAP) 指標的對帳及其他財務資訊可在本公司今天發布的新聞稿中以及我們網站的投資者關係部分找到。

Today's discussion contains forward-looking statements within the meaning of the federal securities laws. Examples of such forward-looking statements include those with respect to the projections of financial and business performance, future macroeconomic and geopolitical conditions; the benefits of acquisitions and investments in capacity and in new technologies; the impact of global, regional and national health crisis including the COVID-19 pandemic; anticipated industry trends; potential disruptions in our supply chain, the impacts of regulatory changes, including the recent US - China trade restrictions; the anticipated demand for products; our ability to develop, produce and sell products; and the assumptions upon which such statements are based.

今天的討論包含聯邦證券法所定義的前瞻性陳述。此類前瞻性陳述的例子包括：對財務和業務表現、未來宏觀經濟和地緣政治條件的預測；收購和投資產能及新技術的益處；包括 COVID-19 疫情在內的全球、區域和國家衛生危機的影響；預期的行業趨勢；我們供應鏈中的潛在中斷、監管變化的影響（包括最近的中美貿易限制）；預期的行業趨勢；我們供應鏈中的潛在中斷、監管變化的影響（包括最近的中美貿易限制）；預期的行業趨勢；

These statements are subject to known and unknown risks and uncertainties that could cause actual results to differ materially from those expressed during this call. Information on risk factors and uncertainties is contained in our most recent filing on Form 10-K with the SEC for the fiscal year ended December 30, 2023, and in our other SEC filings, which are available on the SEC's website at www.sec.gov and in our press release issued today. Forward-looking statements are made as of today, February 5, 2025, and we assume no obligation to update them.

這些聲明受到已知和未知的風險和不確定性的影響，可能導致實際結果與本次電話會議中表達的結果有重大差異。有關風險因素和不確定性的資訊包含在我們最近向美國證券交易委員會提交的截至 2023 年 12 月 30 日的財政年度的 10-K 表格文件中，以及我們向美國證券交易委員會提交的其他文件中，這些文件可在美國證券交易委員會網站 www.sec.gov 和我們今天發布的新聞稿中查閱。前瞻性陳述截至 2025 年 2 月 5 日做出，我們不承擔更新這些陳述的義務。

With that, we will now turn the call over to FormFactor's CEO, Mike Slessor.

現在，我們將把電話轉交給 FormFactor 的執行長 Mike Slessor。

Thanks, everyone, for joining us today. As expected, FormFactor reported sequentially lower fourth quarter revenue, gross margin and non-GAAP earnings per share, driven by the forecasted reduction in foundry and logic probe card revenue. This was partially offset by growth in DRAM probe card revenue, which set a third consecutive quarterly record.

感謝大家今天加入我們。正如預期的那樣，由於代工和邏輯探測卡收入預計將減少，FormFactor 報告第四季度收入、毛利率和非 GAAP 每股收益均季減。但 DRAM 探測卡收入的成長部分抵消了這一成長，創下了連續第三個季度的紀錄。

Like most broad-based equipment and consumable suppliers to the semiconductor industry, FormFactor's fourth quarter and full year 2024 results reflect two very different market dynamics. On the one hand, the explosive growth of generative AI and high bandwidth memory, which more than quadrupled over 2023 and added $100 million in revenue for FormFactor. On the other hand, lackluster demand persisted in important high unit volume markets like client PCs and mobile handsets. This overall theme is continuing in the first quarter of 2025 and we expect sequential reductions in demand for both non-HBM DRAM probe cards and systems.

與大多數半導體行業廣泛的設備和消耗品供應商一樣，FormFactor 的 2024 年第四季和全年業績反映了兩種截然不同的市場動態。一方面，生成式人工智慧和高頻寬記憶體呈現爆炸性成長，到 2023 年將成長四倍多，為 FormFactor 增加了 1 億美元的收入。另一方面，客戶端電腦和行動手機等重要的高銷售市場需求持續低迷。這個總體主題將在 2025 年第一季繼續，我們預計非 HBM DRAM 探針卡和系統的需求將連續減少。

As we move through 2025, we do expect an overall increase in demand for FormFactor's products and I'll provide some more details on these growth areas later.

隨著我們進入 2025 年，我們確實預計 FormFactor 產品的整體需求將會成長，稍後我將提供更多有關這些成長領域的詳細資訊。

Before diving into segments and market level details, I'd like to highlight two significant strategic developments that further strengthen FormFactor's leadership position in enabling the adoption of advanced packaging. Earlier today, we announced that together with MBK Partners, the largest private equity firm in North Asia, were acquiring FICT Limited, a leading supplier of complex multilayer organic substrates and printed circuit boards to semiconductor test and high-performance computing customers. This acquisition will solidify FormFactor's access to FICT's technologies and products, which are an important component of our advanced probe cards.

在深入探討細分市場和市場層面的細節之前，我想強調兩個重要的策略發展，它們將進一步加強 FormFactor 在採用先進封裝方面的領導地位。今天早些時候，我們宣布與北亞最大的私募股權公司 MBK Partners 聯合收購 FICT Limited，後者是一家為半導體測試和高效能運算客戶提供複雜多層有機基板和印刷電路板的領先供應商。此次收購將鞏固 FormFactor 對 FICT 技術和產品的使用權，這些技術和產品是我們先進探針卡的重要組成部分。

And early last month, we announced technology partnership and share purchase agreements with Advantest Corporation, the market leader in automated test equipment. These agreements build upon a multiyear collaboration between our companies, including FormFactor's 2020 purchase of Advantest probe card assets and the announcement last November to partner in developing wafer-level test cells for high-volume manufacturing of the silicon photonics integrated circuits used in co-packaged optics.

上個月初，我們宣布與自動化測試設備市場領導者 Advantest Corporation 達成技術合作夥伴關係和股份購買協議。這些協議建立在我們兩家公司多年合作的基礎上，包括 FormFactor 於 2020 年收購 Advantest 探針卡資產，以及去年 11 月宣布合作開發晶圓級測試單元，用於大量生產共封裝光學元件中使用的矽光子積體電路。

With the rapid adoption of advanced packaging, wafer-level test is increasingly important to leading-edge semiconductor manufacturers, especially for their high-performance compute devices powering generative AI applications. Our expanded partnerships with FICT and Advantest provide a platform to accelerate innovation and strengthen collaboration across the test and assembly supply chain, enabling us to work more closely together to meet the challenging technical and operational requirements driven by advanced packaging and high-performance compute.

隨著先進封裝的快速普及，晶圓級測試對於領先的半導體製造商來說越來越重要，尤其是對於支援生成性人工智慧應用的高效能運算設備而言。我們與 FICT 和 Advantest 擴大的合作夥伴關係提供了一個平台，可以加速創新並加強整個測試和組裝供應鏈的協作，使我們能夠更緊密地合作，以滿足先進封裝和高效能運算所驅動的具有挑戰性的技術和營運要求。

Now let's turn to market and segment level details. As I mentioned, in the fourth quarter, we again delivered record DRAM probe card revenue with solid DDR5 demand paired with sequential growth in HBM. HBM increased to approximately half the record quarterly DRAM revenue, and we expect similar HBM levels in the first quarter. In the first quarter, we continue to experience the normal period of digestion following record mid-2024 shipments of probe cards for HBM3 and HBM3E production designs.

現在讓我們來看看市場和細分層面的細節。正如我所提到的，在第四季度，我們再次實現了創紀錄的 DRAM 探測卡收入，這得益於 DDR5 的強勁需求以及 HBM 的連續成長。HBM 成長至創紀錄的季度 DRAM 收入的約一半，我們預計第一季的 HBM 水準與此類似。在第一季度，我們繼續經歷正常的消化期，此前 2024 年中期 HBM3 和 HBM3E 生產設計的探針卡出貨量創下了紀錄。

In addition, we now have a significant contribution from a second HBM customer, along with growing volumes of HBM4 designs. As a reminder, since probe cards are a device-specific consumable that's customized to each individual customer chip design, production ramps of new chip designs generate demand for new probe cards and the transition to new HBM4 designs will produce significant growth for DRAM probe card demand as this ramp begins in the middle part of 2025.

此外，我們現在有了第二位 HBM 客戶的重大貢獻，而 HBM4 設計的數量也在增加。提醒一下，由於探針卡是針對每個客戶晶片設計客製化的設備專用耗材，新晶片設計的生產坡道會產生對新探針卡的需求，而向新 HBM4 設計的過渡將為 DRAM 探針卡需求帶來顯著增長，因為這種坡道將於 2025 年中期開始。

We also expect some reduction in demand for non-HBM probe cards during the current first quarter, caused primarily by the recent further tightening of export controls, which limit our ability to ship probe cards for advanced node DRAM designs to China. As we discussed in the past, these export controls are a structural headwind that will continue to reduce our ability to serve customers in this region.

我們也預計，第一季非 HBM 探針卡的需求將有所減少，這主要是由於近期進一步加強出口管制，限制了我們向中國運送用於先進節點 DRAM 設計的探針卡的能力。正如我們過去所討論的，這些出口管制是一種結構性阻力，將繼續削弱我們為該地區客戶提供服務的能力。

Shifting to the foundry and logic probe card market. We experienced the anticipated fourth quarter reduction from the levels of the second and third quarter, and for the first time in many years, did not have a foundry and logic manufacturer as a 10% customer. In the first quarter, we expect foundry and logic demand to be similar to the fourth quarter as high unit volume end markets in which FormFactor has a strong competitive position, like mobile handsets and client PCs, remain weak. Like most industry participants, our view is that these end markets will return to growth at some point in 2025.

轉向代工和邏輯探針卡市場。正如預期，第四季度我們的銷售額較第二季和第三季有所下降，多年來首次沒有一家代工廠和邏輯製造商佔據 10% 的客戶份額。我們預計第一季代工和邏輯需求將與第四季度相似，因為 FormFactor 具有強大競爭地位的高單位數量終端市場（如行動手機和客戶端 PC）仍然疲軟。與大多數行業參與者一樣，我們認為這些終端市場將在 2025 年的某個時候恢復成長。

However, we have very limited visibility to the specific timing of the eventual recovery in either client PCs or mobile handsets because the lead times of our products are typically less than a quarter. In the interim, we remain vigilant in managing our cost structure to maximize profitability at these reduced revenue levels, while retaining sufficient capacity to ensure we can respond rapidly to meet customer demand when growth in foundry and logic returns.

然而，由於我們產品的交貨時間通常不到一個季度，因此我們對客戶端 PC 或行動手機最終復甦的具體時間的預測非常有限。在此期間，我們將繼續保持警惕，管理我們的成本結構，以在降低的收入水平下實現盈利能力最大化，同時保留足夠的產能，以確保當代工和邏輯業務恢復增長時，我們能夠迅速做出反應，滿足客戶需求。

The lower level of foundry and logic probe card demand, combined with robust levels for DRAM probe cards produce a challenging product mix. And it's this DRAM rich mix that is largely responsible for gross margins well below our target gross margin of 47% at $850 million of annual revenue. Although we do expect growth to return to the foundry and logic market, at the same time, we're executing multiple initiatives in both DRAM and foundry and logic to mitigate this mix effect and improve our gross margins.

代工和邏輯探測卡需求水準較低，加上 DRAM 探測卡需求水準較高，產生了具有挑戰性的產品組合。正是這種富含 DRAM 的產品組合，導致毛利率遠低於我們 47% 的目標毛利率（年收入為 8.5 億美元）。儘管我們確實預期代工和邏輯市場將恢復成長，但同時，我們正在 DRAM 和代工及邏輯領域實施多項舉措，以減輕這種混合效應並提高我們的毛利率。

In DRAM, we've refreshed our product road map to include a new cost competitive architecture for non-HBM applications which will be launched later this year, while also extending the differentiated high-speed and temperature scaling performance of our SmartMatrix platform in HBM applications. In foundry and logic, we continue to expand and diversify FormFactor's market position, both through new customer qualifications in client PC and server applications and through new products that improve our competitive position in high-performance compute GPU applications.

在 DRAM 方面，我們更新了產品路線圖，包括將於今年稍後推出的針對非 HBM 應用的具有成本競爭力的新型架構，同時還將擴展我們的 SmartMatrix 平台在 HBM 應用中的差異化高速和溫度縮放性能。在代工和邏輯領域，我們繼續擴大和多樣化 FormFactor 的市場地位，既透過客戶端 PC 和伺服器應用中的新客戶資質，也透過提高我們在高效能運算 GPU 應用中的競爭地位的新產品。

We've made progress on both fronts recently and have now met all technical performance requirements in our qualification for a focused application with a fabless microprocessor manufacturer, and expect to complete the qualification in the first half of 2025.

我們最近在這兩個方面都取得了進展，現在已經滿足了與無晶圓廠微處理器製造商合作的重點應用資格的所有技術性能要求，並預計將在 2025 年上半年完成資格認證。

Turning to our Systems segment. We delivered the expected sequential increase in fourth quarter revenue nearing the record levels of mid-2023, which included the FRT business we divested in the fourth quarter of 2023. Systems growth is driven by the rapid innovation of our customers in areas like quantum computing and high-performance compute, with development programs that require high-performance measurement systems like our CM300 lab probers and IQ 3000 cryogenic probers.

轉向我們的系統部分。我們實現了第四季度收入的預期環比增長，接近 2023 年中期的創紀錄水平，其中包括我們在 2023 年第四季度剝離的 FRT 業務。系統成長受到客戶在量子運算和高效能運算等領域的快速創新的推動，開發專案需要高效能測量系統，如我們的 CM300 實驗室探測器和 IQ 3000 低溫探測器。

One of the exciting opportunities in the high-performance computing space is co-packaged optics using silicon photonics, as our customers transition from development in the lab to pilot production volumes in the fab.

隨著我們的客戶從實驗室開發轉向工廠試生產，高效能運算領域的一個令人興奮的機會是使用矽光子學的共封裝光學元件。

This is a key area of focus in our systems business, and we're leveraging our leadership position from the lab space, where we have an installed base of over 100 systems worldwide to the production arena, where we now have multiple systems installed in leading customers' production facilities.

這是我們系統業務的一個重點關注領域，我們正在利用我們在實驗室領域的領導地位，我們在全球擁有超過 100 個系統的安裝基礎，到生產領域，我們現在已經在領先客戶的生產設施中安裝了多個系統。

We expect co-packaged optics to begin to ramp in volume later this year and into 2026 as it offers compelling data center energy efficiency benefit, helping address one of the major economic and environmental challenges for the compute industry and providing a new growth vector for both our systems and probe card businesses.

我們預計，共封裝光學元件的產量將在今年稍後和 2026 年開始增加，因為它提供了引人注目的資料中心能源效率優勢，有助於解決運算產業面臨的主要經濟和環境挑戰之一，並為我們的系統和探測卡業務提供新的成長方向。

In closing, we're continuing to strengthen FormFactor's industry and competitive position, both through development and differentiated products and through partnerships with leaders like Advantest and FICT. These internal and external initiatives are especially important and exciting as we meet the challenges of increased test intensity and higher test complexity associated with the adoption of advanced packaging in applications like high-bandwidth memory and co-packaged optics.

最後，我們將透過開發和差異化產品以及與 Advantest 和 FICT 等領導者的合作，繼續加強 FormFactor 的產業和競爭地位。這些內部和外部措施尤其重要且令人興奮，因為我們面臨著在高頻寬記憶體和共封裝光學元件等應用中採用先進封裝所帶來的測試強度增加和測試複雜性提高的挑戰。

Successful execution of these and other initiatives will allow us to achieve and then surpass our target model that delivers $2 of non-GAAP earnings per share on $850 million of revenue.

成功執行這些舉措和其他舉措將使我們能夠實現並超越我們的目標模式，在 8.5 億美元的營收上實現每股 2 美元的非 GAAP 收益。

Shai, over to you.

Shai，交給你了。

Thank you, Mike, and good afternoon. As you saw in our press release, Q4 revenues were $189.5 million, $0.5 million below the midpoint of our outlook range and non-GAAP gross margin of 40.2% was 0.8 percentage points below the midpoint of the range. These, together with operating expenses slightly lower than the midpoint of the outlook, resulted in a non-GAAP EPS of $0.27, $0.02 below the midpoint of our outlook range.

謝謝你，麥克，下午好。正如您在我們的新聞稿中看到的，第四季度營收為 1.895 億美元，比我們預期範圍的中點低 50 萬美元，非 GAAP 毛利率為 40.2%，比預期範圍的中點低 0.8 個百分點。這些因素加上略低於預期中點的營運費用，導致非 GAAP 每股收益為 0.27 美元，比我們預期範圍的中點低 0.02 美元。

Fourth quarter revenues decreased 9% from the all-time record revenues reached in the third quarter and increased 12.7% year-over-year from our Q4 '23 revenues. For fiscal '24, we recorded revenues of $764 million, up 15.2% from $663 million in fiscal '23. Almost all of this $100 million growth came from HBM revenues.

第四季營收較第三季創下的歷史最高收入下降 9%，較 23 年第四季營收年增 12.7%。24 財年，我們的營收為 7.64 億美元，較 23 財年的 6.63 億美元成長 15.2%。這 1 億美元的成長幾乎全部來自 HBM 收入。

Probe card segment revenues were $150.3 million in the fourth quarter, a decrease of $21.9 million or 12.7% from the third quarter. The decrease was driven by lower foundry and logic and flash revenues partially offset by a record high DRAM revenues. For fiscal '24, we recorded Probe Cards segment revenues of $626 million compared to $498 million in fiscal '23.

探測卡部門第四季營收為 1.503 億美元，較第三季減少 2,190 萬美元，降幅為 12.7%。下降的原因是代工、邏輯和快閃記憶體收入下降，但 DRAM 收入創歷史新高，部分抵消了下降。24 財年，我們的探針卡部門營收為 6.26 億美元，而 23 財年為 4.98 億美元。

The Systems segment revenues were $39.2 million in Q4, $3.4 million higher than the third quarter and comprised 20.7% of total company revenues, up from 17.2% in the third quarter. In fiscal '24, we recorded Systems segment revenues of $137.6 million, $27.6 million lower than the $165.2 million revenues in fiscal '23, with the decline due to the sale of our FRT business during the fourth quarter of fiscal 2013.

系統部門第四季的營收為 3,920 萬美元，比第三季高出 340 萬美元，占公司總營收的 20.7%，高於第三季的 17.2%。在 24 財年，我們的系統部門營收為 1.376 億美元，比 23 財年的 1.652 億美元低 2,760 萬美元，下降的原因是我們在 2013 財年第四季出售了 FRT 業務。

Within the Probe Cards segment, Q4 foundry and logic revenues were $83 million, a 22.5% decrease from the third quarter. Foundry and logic revenues decreased to 44% of total company revenues compared to 51.7% in the third quarter. DRAM revenues were a record $63.3 million in Q4, $3.1 million or 5.2% higher than the previous record that was set in the third quarter, an increase to 33.4% of total quarterly revenues as compared to 28.9% in the third quarter.

在探針卡領域，第四季代工和邏輯收入為 8,300 萬美元，比第三季下降 22.5%。晶圓代工和邏輯電路收入占公司總收入的比例從第三季的 51.7% 下降至 44%。第四季 DRAM 營收達到創紀錄的 6,330 萬美元，比第三季創下的前紀錄高出 310 萬美元或 5.2%，佔季總收入的 33.4%，而第三季為 28.9%。

Within DRAM, HBM revenues increased slightly as expected from $29 million in Q3 to $32 million in the fourth quarter. HBM revenues for fiscal '24 totaled $126 million, a nearly $100 million increase from fiscal '23. Flash revenues of $3.7 million in Q4 were down $0.9 million in the third quarter and were 1.9% of total revenues in Q4 as compared to 2.2% in Q3.

在 DRAM 領域，HBM 營收如預期般小幅成長，從第三季的 2,900 萬美元增至第四季的 3,200 萬美元。HBM 24 財年營收總計 1.26 億美元，較 23 財年增加近 1 億美元。第四季 Flash 營收為 370 萬美元，比第三季下降 90 萬美元，佔第四季總營收的 1.9%，而第三季為 2.2%。

GAAP gross margin for the fourth quarter was 38.8% as compared to 40.7% in Q3. Cost of revenues included $2.5 million of GAAP to non-GAAP reconciling items, which we outlined in our press release issued today and in the reconciliation table available in the Investor Relations section of our website. GAAP gross margin for fiscal '24 was 40.3% compared to 39% in fiscal '23.

第四季 GAAP 毛利率為 38.8%，第三季為 40.7%。收入成本包括 250 萬美元的 GAAP 與非 GAAP 調節項目，我們在今天發布的新聞稿中以及我們網站投資者關係部分提供的調整表中對此進行了概述。24 財年的 GAAP 毛利率為 40.3%，而 23 財年為 39%。

On a non-GAAP basis, gross margin for the fourth quarter was 40.2%, 2-percentage-points lower than the 42.2% non-GAAP gross margin in Q3 8-percentage-points below the midpoint of our outlook. The decrease as compared to Q3 is driven by lower non-GAAP gross margins in both segments. Non-GAAP gross margin for fiscal '24 increased to 41.7% compared to 40.7% in fiscal '23.

以非公認會計準則計算，第四季毛利率為 40.2%，比第三季 42.2% 的非公認會計準則毛利率低 2 個百分點，比我們預期的中點低 8 個百分點。與第三季相比，收入下降的原因是兩個部門的非公認會計準則毛利率較低。24 財年非公認會計準則毛利率由 23 財年的 40.7% 上升至 41.7%。

Our probe card segment gross margin was 40% in the fourth quarter, a decrease of 2.3 percentage points compared to 42.3% in Q3. The decrease from Q3 was mainly a result of the decrease in revenue volume. The decreases compared to the midpoint of the outlook range is attributable to lower utilization in line with lower production volumes. Our Q4 Systems segment gross margin was 40.8%, a decrease of 0.7 percentage points compared to 41.5% gross margin in the prior quarter.

我們探針卡部門的毛利率在第四季為40%，與第三季的42.3%相比下降了2.3個百分點。與第三季相比的下降主要是由於收入量的下降。與預期範圍中點相比有所下降，這是由於產量下降導致利用率下降。我們第四季系統部門的毛利率為 40.8%，與上一季的 41.5% 毛利率相比下降了 0.7 個百分點。

Our GAAP operating expenses were $65.7 million for the fourth quarter as compared to $67 million in the third quarter. Non-GAAP operating expenses for the fourth quarter were $55.2 million or 29.1% of revenues as compared with $59.3 million or 28.5% of revenues in Q3. The $4.1 million decrease relates mainly to lower payroll taxes and lower performance-based compensation. Company noncash expenses for the fourth quarter included $10.2 million for stock-based compensation, $1.3 million higher than in Q3 due to grant for features in the prior quarter that did not repeat, $0.7 million for the amortization of acquisition-related intangibles, similar to Q3 and depreciation of $8.1 million, slightly higher than in the third quarter.

我們第四季的 GAAP 營運費用為 6,570 萬美元，而第三季為 6,700 萬美元。第四季非公認會計準則營運費用為 5,520 萬美元，佔營收的 29.1%，而第三季為 5,930 萬美元，佔營收的 28.5%。410萬美元的減少主要與工資稅降低和績效薪酬降低有關。該公司第四季的非現金支出包括 1,020 萬美元的股票薪酬，比第三季高出 130 萬美元，原因是授予了上一季未重複的功能，收購相關無形資產的攤銷為 70 萬美元，與第三季相似，折舊為 810 萬美元，略高於第三季。

GAAP operating income was $7.9 million for Q4 compared to $17.9 million in Q3. Non-GAAP operating income for the fourth quarter was $20.9 million compared with $28.3 million in the third quarter, a decrease of $7.4 million or 26.3%. This reduction in operating income is due to lower revenues combined with lower gross margins, partially offset by the decrease in operating expenses. GAAP net income for the fourth quarter was $9.7 million or $0.12 per fully diluted share compared with GAAP net income of $18.7 million or $0.24 per fully diluted share in the previous quarter. For fiscal '24, GAAP net income was $69.6 million or $0.89 per fully diluted share compared with a GAAP net income of $82.4 million or $1.05 per fully diluted share in fiscal '23.

第四季 GAAP 營業收入為 790 萬美元，而第三季為 1,790 萬美元。第四季非公認會計準則營業收入為 2,090 萬美元，而第三季為 2,830 萬美元，減少 740 萬美元，降幅為 26.3%。營業收入的減少是由於收入減少和毛利率降低，但營業費用的減少部分抵消了這種影響。第四季 GAAP 淨收入為 970 萬美元，即每股攤薄收益 0.12 美元，而上一季 GAAP 淨收入為 1,870 萬美元，即每股攤薄收益 0.24 美元。24 財年，GAAP 淨收入為 6,960 萬美元，即每股攤薄收益 0.89 美元，而 23 財年的 GAAP 淨收入為 8,240 萬美元，即每股攤薄收益 1.05 美元。

The non-GAAP effective tax rate for the fourth quarter was 14.7%, a 1.3 percentage points increase from the 13.4% in the third quarter. For fiscal '24, the non-GAAP effective tax rate was 14.4%, at the low end of the previously communicated range of 14% to 18%. We expect a similar range in fiscal '25.

第四季非公認會計準則有效稅率為14.7%，較第三季的13.4%上升1.3個百分點。24 財年，非公認會計準則有效稅率為 14.4%，處於先前公佈的 14% 至 18% 範圍的低端。我們預計 25 財年也將出現類似的情況。

Fourth quarter non-GAAP net income was $21.3 million or $0.27 per fully diluted share, down from $27.2 million or $0.35 per fully diluted share in Q3. Non-GAAP net income for fiscal '24 was $90.2 million or $1.15 per fully diluted share compared with a non-GAAP net income of $56.8 million or $0.73 per fully diluted share in fiscal '23, an increase of 58% year-over-year.

第四季非 GAAP 淨收入為 2,130 萬美元或每股攤薄收益 0.27 美元，低於第三季的 2,720 萬美元或每股攤薄收益 0.35 美元。24 財年非 GAAP 淨收入為 9,020 萬美元，即每股攤薄收益 1.15 美元，而 23 財年非 GAAP 淨收入為 5,680 萬美元，即每股攤薄收益 0.73 美元，年增 58%。

Moving to the balance sheet and cash flow. We generated free cash flow of $28.8 million in the fourth quarter compared to $20 million in Q3. The main reasons for the increase were higher operating cash flows primarily driven by greater noncash expenses of $8 million, lower outflows for working capital of $10.2 million and CapEx lower by $1.3 million. Free cash flow for fiscal '24 increased to $83 million in comparison to $11.4 million in fiscal '23.

轉到資產負債表和現金流量表。我們第四季的自由現金流為 2880 萬美元，而第三季為 2000 萬美元。成長的主要原因是營運現金流增加，這主要是由於非現金支出增加 800 萬美元、營運資本流出減少 1,020 萬美元以及資本支出減少 130 萬美元所致。24 財年的自由現金流從 23 財年的 1,140 萬美元增至 8,300 萬美元。

We invested $7.7 million in capital expenditures during the fourth quarter compared to $8.9 million in Q3. This brings our annual fiscal CapEx to $38.4 million within the expected range of $35 million to $45 million. In fiscal '25, we expect a similar level of investment in capital expenditures. At quarter end, total cash and investments were $367 million, an increase of $6 million from Q3. At the end of the fourth quarter, we had one term loan with a balance totaling $13 million.

我們在第四季的資本支出為 770 萬美元，而第三季為 890 萬美元。這使我們的年度財政資本支出達到 3840 萬美元，處於預期的 3500 萬美元至 4500 萬美元範圍內。在25財年，我們預期資本支出的投資水準將與此類似。截至季末，現金和投資總額為 3.67 億美元，較第三季增加 600 萬美元。第四季末，我們有一筆定期貸款，餘額總計 1,300 萬美元。

Regarding stock buyback. During the fourth quarter, we repurchased shares worth $16.1 million. At quarter end, $20.5 million remained available for future purchases under the $75 million 2-year buyback program that was approved in Q4 '23. Our capital allocation strategy has not changed and our share repurchase program goal is to offset dilution from stock-based compensation.

關於股票回購。第四季度，我們回購了價值 1,610 萬美元的股票。截至季末，根據 2023 年第四季批准的 7,500 萬美元兩年期回購計劃，仍有 2,050 萬美元可供未來購買。我們的資本配置策略沒有改變，我們的股票回購計畫目標是抵銷股票薪資的稀釋。

As we have communicated in the past, M&A is an important part of our capital allocation strategy. As you saw in the press release, we are acquiring 20% of FICT for approximately $60 million. This transaction, which will be accounted for under the equity method is not expected to have a significant impact on our results of operations. Let me also note that the share repurchase agreement we signed with Advantest earlier this quarter added $15 million to our strong balance sheet.

正如我們過去所傳達的，併購是我們資本配置策略的重要組成部分。正如您在新聞稿中看到的，我們將以約 6000 萬美元的價格收購 FICT 20% 的股份。該交易將以權益法核算，預計不會對我們的經營業績產生重大影響。我還要指出的是，我們本季早些時候與 Advantest 簽署的股票回購協議為我們強大的資產負債表增加了 1500 萬美元。

Turning to the first quarter non-GAAP outlook. We expect Q1 revenues of $170 million, plus or minus $5 million, with the decrease in systems, flash and DRAM revenues. Foundry and logic revenues as well as HBM revenues within our DRAM revenues are expected to remain flat. This decline in revenues is expected to result in a lower non-GAAP gross margin of 38%, plus or minus 150 basis points.

轉向第一季非公認會計準則展望。我們預計第一季的營收為 1.7 億美元，上下浮動 500 萬美元，系統、快閃記憶體和 DRAM 收入將有所下降。我們的 DRAM 收入中的代工和邏輯收入以及 HBM 收入預計將保持穩定。預計收入下降將導致非 GAAP 毛利率下降 38%，上下浮動 150 個基點。

At the midpoint of these outlook ranges we expect Q1 operating expenses to be $51 million, plus or minus $2 million, approximately $4 million lower than Q4 mainly due to lower performance-based compensation. Non-GAAP earnings per fully diluted share for Q1 is expected to be $0.19, plus or minus $0.04.

在這些預期範圍的中間值，我們預計第一季的營運費用為 5,100 萬美元，上下浮動 200 萬美元，比第四季低約 400 萬美元，主要原因是基於績效的薪酬較低。預計第一季非公認會計準則每股攤薄收益為 0.19 美元，上下浮動 0.04 美元。

Finally, let me say a few words about our ongoing focus on profitability. As Mike noted, while we have benefited from robust growth in HBM due to the expansion in generative AI, we have also experienced soft demand in high unit volume markets like client PCs and mobile handsets.

最後，讓我談談我們對獲利能力的持續關注。正如 Mike 所指出的，雖然我們受益於產生 AI 擴充功能帶來的 HBM 強勁成長，但我們也經歷了客戶端 PC 和行動手機等高容量市場的需求疲軟。

While we expect this softness to persist at least through Q1, we continue to be attentive to our cost structure by making targeted adjustments to variable costs, allowing us to meet higher demand when growth returns to foundry and logic. A reconciliation of our GAAP to non-GAAP Q1 outlook is available on the Investor Relations section of our website and in our press release issued today.

雖然我們預計這種疲軟至少會持續到第一季度，但我們會繼續關注我們的成本結構，對可變成本進行有針對性的調整，以便在代工和邏輯業務恢復增長時滿足更高的需求。我們的網站的投資者關係部分和我們今天發布的新聞稿中提供了我們對 GAAP 與非 GAAP 第一季展望的調整。

With that, let's open the call for questions. Operator?

現在，讓我們開始提問。操作員？

(Operator Instructions) Charles Shi, Needham & Company.

（操作員指示）Charles Shi，Needham & Company。

Hey, good afternoon. Mike, a couple of questions. I think you provided segment color for your Q1 outlook. I think, Mike if you kind of unpack a little bit the foundry and logic, DRAM between non-HBM and HBM. And of course, you also mentioned about Systems and we will unpack that a little bit for us. But I do want to specifically ask you about the non-HBM DRAM probe cards since it looks like you're anticipating a sequential reduction in demand.

嘿，下午好。麥克，有幾個問題。我認為您為第一季的展望提供了細分顏色。我認為，Mike，如果你能稍微解開一下代工廠和邏輯，以及非 HBM 和 HBM 之間的 DRAM。當然，您也提到了系統，我們將對此進行一些解釋。但我確實想特別問您有關非 HBM DRAM 探測卡的問題，因為看起來您預計需求會連續減少。

But if I really back out CXMT, the China demand that was there before the export controls, if I back that out, your DRAM revenue, non-HBM DRAM, I think has been run rating at $1 million per quarter for almost two years, almost like there's no recovery in that part of the market. Mike, if you educate us a little bit of what's going on there and when could we see the outlook for that part of the market to turn a little bit more positive?

但如果我真的放棄 CXMT，即出口管制之前就存在的中國需求，如果我放棄這一點，那麼你們的 DRAM 收入，非 HBM DRAM，我認為近兩年來一直保持在每季度 100 萬美元的水平，幾乎就像該部分市場沒有復蘇一樣。麥克，您能否向我們介紹一下那裡的情況？什麼時候我們才能看到該部分市場的前景變得更加樂觀？

Sure, Charles. So as we bridge from Q4 to Q1, you've identified the biggest factor in the sequential decline between our Q4 results and our Q1 outlook, and that's non-HBM DRAM. We expect HBM DRAM to be approximately flat quarter-on-quarter. And by far, the largest component of the non-HBM DRAM reduction in Q1, is associated with advanced DRAM probe cards shipping into China.

當然，查爾斯。因此，當我們從第四季度過渡到第一季時，您已經發現了導致我們第四季業績與第一季展望之間連續下滑的最大因素，那就是非 HBM DRAM。我們預計 HBM DRAM 將與上一季基本持平。到目前為止，第一季非 HBM DRAM 減產的最大部分與運往中國的先進 DRAM 探測卡有關。

If you look at our results in the second half of 2024, you saw some significant growth there, and it was primarily associated with DRAM probe cards. With the recent export controls that have gone into place from the US Department of Commerce, we don't believe we can ship to those customers.

如果您查看我們 2024 年下半年的業績，您會看到一些顯著的成長，這主要與 DRAM 探測卡有關。由於美國商務部最近實施的出口管制，我們認為我們無法向這些客戶出貨。

And as a result, we've taken our outlook for DRAM probe card revenue into China down to 0 in the Q1 outlook, and we'd expect to have that persist throughout the year unless there's some dramatic change. That's a pretty significant impact. We were running in round numbers at about $10 million per quarter with that customer, with China DRAM and advanced probe cards. So that's definitely a headwind.

因此，我們在第一季的展望中將 DRAM 探測卡在中國的收入預期下調至 0，並且我們預計這種情況將持續到全年，除非出現一些重大變化。這是一個相當重大的影響。我們與該客戶每季的合作金額約為 1,000 萬美元，涉及中國 DRAM 和先進的探針卡。所以這絕對是一個阻力。

Some of the other pieces, we often see seasonality in the systems business. So a Q4 to Q1 step down is not all that unusual given our customers' budget cycles. And then we see primarily a flat outlook Q4 to Q1 overall in the foundry and logic business. And there's a few moving parts underneath that with various customers and various projects, as there always is inside any segment. But by far, the biggest component causing the Q4 to Q1 sequential reduction is the removal of non-HBM DRAM into China.

在其他一些方面，我們經常看到系統業務的季節性。因此，考慮到我們客戶的預算週期，第四季度至第一季的下降並不罕見。然後，我們看到代工和邏輯業務第四季度與第一季整體前景持平。這其中涉及一些活動部件，包括不同的客戶和不同的項目，就像任何細分市場一樣。但到目前為止，導致第四季與第一季環比下降的最大因素是非 HBM DRAM 撤出中國。

Yes. Sorry, maybe I asked the question a little bit too long, but the second part of the question, I do want to repeat here. But in the non-China non-HBM business?

是的。抱歉，也許我的問題問得有點長，但問題的第二部分，我確實想在這裡重複。但在中國以外的非 HBM 業務中呢？

Okay. The rest of the world.

好的。世界其他地方。

Yes.

是的。

Yes. DRAM, let's continue to call it non-HBM DRAM. So primarily DDR5 and some graphics DDR as well continues to operate at those cyclical low levels, around $20 million a quarter, and we don't see much activity there. There's new designs as our customers continue to release and ramp in limited volume, especially associated with DDR5. But as you noted for the past couple of years, that business has been operating at cyclical lows. HBM continues to be the highlight in the DRAM probe card business and really is what powered the 3 consecutive record quarter.

是的。DRAM，我們繼續稱之為非HBM DRAM。因此，主要的 DDR5 和一些圖形 DDR 也繼續在周期性低水平運行，每季度約為 2000 萬美元，而且我們沒有看到太多活動。隨著我們的客戶繼續發布和增加有限數量的產品，出現了新的設計，尤其是與 DDR5 相關的設計。但正如您在過去幾年中註意到的，該業務一直處於週期性低谷。HBM 繼續成為 DRAM 探測卡業務的亮點，並且是連續三個季度創下紀錄的真正動力。

Got it. Thank you. I'll be back to the queue.

知道了。謝謝。我會回到隊列。

Thanks. Thanks.

謝謝。謝謝。

Craig Ellis, B. Riley Securities.

克雷格·艾利斯 (Craig Ellis)，B. Riley 證券。

Yeah, thanks for taking.

是的，謝謝你接受。

The question, Mike, I wanted to start off just with a higher level question. I think over time, as you and I have interacted on the business, one of the things we've talked about is the business being very product cycle and node transition dependent with its product demand and much less volume dependent. And yet it seems like there is quite a bit of volume impacting the business 3E exit 2024 and going to 2025. So can you just come back and kind of square that circle? Why is it that volume is such a big impacting factor in the very near term here?

麥克，我想從一個更高層次的問題開始。我認為隨著時間的推移，當您和我就業務進行互動時，我們談論的事情之一是業務非常依賴產品週期和節點轉換，其產品需求而不是數量依賴性。然而，似乎有相當大的數量影響著 2024 年 3E 業務退出和 2025 年的業務。那麼你能回來並把這個圈子弄平嗎？為什麼交易量在短期內會成為如此重要的影響因素？

Sure. So for probe cards, the fundamental demand driver is new design releases by our customers. But those new design releases need to ramp in volume, Right? What drives the fundamental change from one set of probe cards to another is the design change or the mass set change, things like going from HBM3 to HBM4 or a node transition from 3-nanometer to 2-nanometer, those things definitely drive probe card demand. But also individual designs inside those nodes also drive probe card demand.

當然。因此對於探針卡來說，根本的需求驅動因素是客戶發布的新設計。但是這些新設計的發布需要增加數量，對嗎？推動從一組探針卡到另一組探針卡的根本變化的因素是設計變化或質量集變化，例如從 HBM3 到 HBM4 或從 3 奈米到 2 奈米的節點轉變，這些因素肯定會推動探針卡的需求。但這些節點內部的單獨設計也推動了探測卡的需求。

But the number of probe cards we sell, right, is dependent on the ramp volume associated with that. How many test cells are going to need to run, each of them needs a probe card. And so it's both. One thing that drives the refresh cycle, no question about it and why we're bullish about 2025 is things like the transition to HBM4, which we expect to drive growth in 2025 over 2024.

但是我們銷售的探針卡的數量取決於與之相關的產量。需要運行多少個測試單元，每個測試單元都需要一張探測卡。所以兩者皆有。毫無疑問，推動更新周期的一個因素以及我們看好 2025 年的原因是向 HBM4 的過渡，我們預計它將在 2025 年推動比 2024 年更多的增長。

But we also need all of these things to ramp in volume. The wafer volume, the test cell volume drives the number of probe cards. And so with markets like PC and mobile operating at continued cyclical lows, we're not getting the volume out of those markets that really drive the business.

但我們也需要提高所有這些東西的數量。晶圓體積、測試單元體積決定了探針卡的數量。因此，由於個人電腦和行動市場持續處於週期性低谷，我們無法從真正推動業務發展的市場中獲得銷售。

That's helpful color. And then as a follow-up, which is a take off really on that last point, there's a large US customer that did not appear on the 10% list in the fourth quarter. And from time to time, they just go through a period of probe card digestion. Can you address to what extent was that at play versus the demand levels in the prior couple of quarters versus their own share loss that may be impacting the volumes that would drive business with Form or other rather as you think you might?

這是很有幫助的顏色。然後作為後續問題，這實際上是對最後一點的補充，有一個大型美國客戶在第四季度沒有出現在 10% 的名單上。有時，他們只是經歷一段探測卡消化期。您能否解釋一下，與前幾季的需求水準相比，以及與他們的市佔率損失相比，這種影響在多大程度上影響了與 Form 或其他公司開展業務的銷售？

Yes. I think it's fair to say that we see fairly broad-based weakness across foundry and logic. But certainly, our microprocessor business, as you noted, is especially weak in the fourth quarter. No foundry and logic customer, including our large microprocessor company appeared as 10% of revenue. And so I think that's indicative of the weakness there.

是的。我認為可以公平地說，我們看到代工和邏輯領域存在相當廣泛的弱點。但正如您所說，我們的微處理器業務在第四季度尤其疲軟。沒有任何代工和邏輯客戶（包括我們的大型微處理器公司）的收入占到 10%。所以我認為這表明了那裡的弱點。

As we look at some of the initiatives for the company, obviously, that raises the importance increases the importance of something we've been committed to for a long time, and that's making sure we're qualified at all the leading customers across the industry. Now you've heard from all the customers in the x86 space that client PC is awfully weak.

當我們審視公司的一些舉措時，顯然，這增加了我們長期致力於的事情的重要性，那就是確保我們有資格滿足整個行業所有主要客戶的需求。現在您已經從 x86 領域的所有客戶那裡聽說客戶端 PC 非常弱。

So I don't know that, that would have made a really big difference to either our Q4 or Q1 outlook, but it remains a strategic imperative for us to qualify and be competing for business at all major customers. And as I said in the prepared remarks, we're making some good progress there and expect those things to positively impact FormFactor's growth in 2025.

所以我不知道這是否會對我們的第四季度或第一季的前景產生重大影響，但對於我們來說，獲得資格並與所有主要客戶競爭業務仍然是一項戰略要務。正如我在準備好的演講中所說，我們在那裡取得了一些良好的進展，並預計這些進展將對 FormFactor 在 2025 年的成長產生積極影響。

Thanks for that, Mike.

謝謝你，麥克。

Brian Chin, Stifel.

Brian Chin，Stifel。

Hi. Hi there. Well, I guess, in terms of the statement that you do expect an overall increase in demand as we move through the year, it sounds like you're saying that you do think HBM will be one of those drivers sequentially through the year. And when you think about the foundry logic business, is it reasonable to expect that even last year was not exactly a banner year in terms of phone and PC unit sales, for example. But there was release of new designs and levels of seasonality in production.

你好。你好呀。嗯，我想，就您確實預計隨著我們度過這一年，需求總體會增長的說法而言，聽起來您確實認為 HBM 將成為全年持續增長的驅動因素之一。當您考慮代工邏輯業務時，是否有理由預期，就手機和個人電腦銷售而言，去年也並不是一個豐收的一年？但新設計的發布和生產的季節性水準也隨之變化。

Would it be reasonable to expect that you can get back to sort of that $100 million a quarter kind of run rate in foundry logic if we have a similar kind of profile this year? And that's also incorporating, I guess, some of the progress you're seeing in terms of fabless microprocessor and GPU?

如果我們今年有類似的情況，那麼預期代工邏輯的運作率能回到每季約 1 億美元的水平是否合理？我想，這也包括您在無晶圓廠微處理器和 GPU 方面看到的一些進展？

Yes. I think about -- if I look at 2025 overall and the reason we're confident in growth, HBM and the transition to HBM4 is definitely one component. We're going to higher layer stacks, which amplifies the test intensity going from 8 to 12 to 16 stacks and then the higher test feeds amplify the test complexity. Those things historically have always ramped up test spending. And we saw it in 2024 with HBM3 and HBM3E.

是的。我認為——如果我總體展望 2025 年以及我們對成長充滿信心的原因，HBM 和向 HBM4 的過渡肯定是其中一個因素。我們將採用更高層的堆疊，這將使測試強度從 8 層堆疊增加到 12 層、再增加到 16 層，然後更高的測試饋送將增加測試的複雜性。從歷史上看，這些因素總是會增加測試支出。我們將在 2024 年看到 HBM3 和 HBM3E。

I think if we look at foundry and logic, it's certainly reasonable to assume a return to the -- let's call it, 100 million-ish levels with some activity associated with a PC refresh cycle, more activity and higher unit volumes off these new designs in PC and mobile. And so I think that's a reasonable place to think about the foundry and logic business returning with some FormFactor specific drivers being qualifications at some of these new customers, adding to revenue and balancing and diversifying the overall customer base.

我認為，如果我們看一下代工和邏輯，那麼假設回歸到——我們稱之為 1 億左右的水平，並且一些活動與 PC 更新周期有關，PC 和移動設備上的這些新設計將有更多的活動和更高的單位產量，這當然是合理的。因此，我認為這是一個合理的想法，可以考慮代工和邏輯業務的回歸，一些 FormFactor 特定的驅動程式將成為一些新客戶的資格，從而增加收入並平衡和多樣化整體客戶群。

Okay. Great. And maybe asking about the FICT acquisition. I guess it sounds like they've been a key supplier to you historically. And in terms of the motivation here, is this reflective of just how fast those product cycle road maps are moving in the AI data center arena and kind of that need to sort of exert some influence over key ecosystem partners, maybe still with an eye towards not fully internalizing or verticalizing some of these partners?

好的。偉大的。或許也會詢問有關 FICT 收購的情況。我想這聽起來好像他們一直以來都是您的主要供應商。就這裡的動機而言，這是否反映了產品週期路線圖在人工智慧資料中心領域的發展速度有多快，以及需要對關鍵生態系統合作夥伴施加一定的影響，或許仍然著眼於不完全內化或垂直化其中一些合作夥伴？

Yes. I think that's a good way to characterize one of the objectives. FICT has been a very important supplier to us and the overall probe card industry over the years and remains so. And with the accelerating complexity associated with high-performance compute and what our customers are asking us to do, we felt like we wanted a larger influence for that important supplier. The structure we executed here with MBK Partners allows us to have that influence in that closer coupling without taking on all of the financial and execution risks of a full cross-border acquisition.

是的。我認為這是描述其中一個目標的好方法。多年來，FICT 一直是我們和整個探針卡行業非常重要的供應商，現在仍然如此。隨著高效能運算的複雜性不斷增加以及客戶對我們提出的要求，我們覺得我們希望對這個重要的供應商產生更大的影響力。我們與 MBK Partners 共同實施的結構使我們能夠在更緊密的結合中發揮影響力，而無需承擔全面跨境收購的所有財務和執行風險。

So we think this is a good step forward to both solidify the supply chain, our supply chain but also offer us some increased access into advanced packaging. Runs a similar theme to some of the partnership announcements you've seen from Advantest, Advantest investing in us in and one of our competitors. Technoprobe investing -- or Teradyne investing in one of our competitors. You see these closer couplings across the industry just because of the complexity of what customers are requiring of us and the speed with which you need to deliver that complexity.

因此，我們認為這是一個很好的進步，不僅鞏固了我們的供應鏈，也為我們提供了更多進入先進封裝領域的機會。與您從 Advantest 看到的一些合作公告類似，Advantest 對我們和我們的競爭對手之一進行了投資。Technoprobe 投資——或 Teradyne 投資我們的某個競爭對手。您會看到整個行業之間的聯繫更加緊密，這是因為客戶對我們的要求非常複雜，而您需要以非常快的速度來滿足這種複雜性。

Okay, great. Thank you.

好的，太好了。謝謝。

David Duley, Steelhead Securities.

Steelhead Securities 的 David Duley。

Yeah, thanks for taking my questions. I guess I have a couple. As far as the HBM outlook goes, so I think I heard you say you have designs in hand or you should have revenue in hand from two customers, more significant revenue from 2 customers now. So does that mean you have two customers ramping up in HBM4?

是的，感謝您回答我的問題。我想我有幾個。就 HBM 的前景而言，我想我聽到您說您手頭上有設計，或者您應該從兩個客戶那裡獲得收入，現在從兩個客戶那裡獲得的收入更為可觀。那麼這是否意味著您有兩位客戶正在加大 HBM4 的投資？

Well, we've got a mix of HBM3 and HBM4, but I think the point you're keying on that we now have a significant contribution in our HBM revenue from a second customer is correct, right? So I want to make sure that doesn't get lost. Our HBM revenue is -- still mirrors pretty well our end customers' HBM market share in the end market. Dominated by one, a second customer coming up and taking more share and producing more volume. And the third one, we expect -- we're qualified and competing at all three of these.

嗯，我們有 HBM3 和 HBM4 的混合，但我認為您所強調的一點，即我們現在從第二個客戶那裡獲得了對我們 HBM 收入的重大貢獻，這是正確的，對嗎？所以我想確保它不會丟失。我們的 HBM 收入仍然很好地反映了我們的最終客戶在終端市場的 HBM 市場份額。在一個客戶主導下，第二個客戶出現並佔據了更多的市場份額，產量也更大。對於第三項，我們期望——我們有資格並有能力參加這三項比賽。

But our share, again, our contributions reflect their shares in the end market. But we've now added a significant second component to our HBM revenue in both HBM3 and HBM4. So it's still a mix. But we really expect HBM4 to ramp in significant volume as we go through the middle part of 2025.

但我們的份額，我們的貢獻反映了他們在最終市場的份額。但現在我們在 HBM3 和 HBM4 中為 HBM 收入增加了重要的第二個組成部分。所以它仍然是一種混合體。但我們確實預計，到 2025 年中期，HBM4 的產量將大幅增加。

Okay. And then I was curious, when you talk about qualifying new customers, I'm assuming one of those is the CPU customer that you don't have. And then I think you've probably got qualifications or business in hand with the hyperscalers? Could you elaborate a little bit more on what's going on with the hyperscalers?

好的。然後我很好奇，當您談到合格的新客戶時，我假設其中一個是您沒有的 CPU 客戶。然後我認為您可能已經具備了與超大規模企業合作的資格或業務？能否更詳細地介紹一下超大規模資料中心的情況？

Yes. So this is an interesting new business. These are generally these Custom ASICs that the hyperscalers are developing in-house sometimes with a design partner, sometimes directly with the foundry. And we've got good engagement there. A couple of projects that we're shipping the initial designs for here in the first quarter, but that's also a business that we expect to strengthen as we go through the year and kind of a new component of the overall probe card business.

是的。所以這是一項有趣的新業務。這些通常是超大規模企業內部開發的客製化 ASIC，有時與設計合作夥伴一起開發，有時直接與代工廠一起開發。我們在那裡有著良好的參與。我們在第一季交付了幾個專案的初步設計，但這也是我們預計在今年內會加強的業務，也是整個探測卡業務的一個新組成部分。

We used to just either deliver to the IDMs or the foundries. Here's a case where the hyperscalers are taking these new chip designs, mostly custom ASICs for AI applications and starting to develop that silicon themselves. And so a new growth area for us, one that I wouldn't say is going to materially affect us in the first half, but we're laying the groundwork to make sure as those new designs ramp as we go through 2025, that we're in a strong incumbent position to capitalize on these new opportunities.

我們過去只是向 IDM 或代工廠交付產品。在這種情況下，超大規模企業正在採用這些新的晶片設計（主要是用於 AI 應用的客製化 ASIC）並開始自行開發該晶片。因此，對我們來說，這是一個新的成長領域，我不認為它會在上半年對我們產生實質影響，但我們正在奠定基礎，以確保隨著 2025 年這些新設計的推出，我們能夠處於有利地位，利用這些新機會。

Okay. And just a follow on to that. I'm just kind of curious as far as inside your foundry logic business, I'm sure that's where you find the networking piece. I think you have exposure to the Avago food chain there and perhaps the NVIDIA food chain. Could you just talk about what you're seeing in networking?

好的。這只是對此的後續。我只是有點好奇，就你們的代工邏輯業務而言，我相信你們在那裡找到了網路部分。我認為您接觸過那裡的 Avago 食物鏈，也許還有 NVIDIA 食物鏈。您能談談您在網路中看到的情況嗎？

Yes. Networking, we do have good exposure there. And that is an area where, with those customers has offered some pretty significant growth over the past several quarters. Part of it is due to their product strategies. For example, you see some of these customers selling things like GPUs together with the networking components. And so the system level view that our customers are taking kind of drags along the networking chips with some of the higher-value GPUs, and that's caused those volumes to grow significantly and their product road maps to accelerate significantly as high-performance compute has gone to this one-year road map cadence.

是的。在網路上，我們確實在那裡獲得了良好的曝光。在過去的幾個季度中，這些客戶在該領域實現了相當顯著的成長。部分原因在於他們的產品策略。例如，您會看到一些客戶將 GPU 等產品與網路組件一起銷售。因此，從系統層面來看，我們的客戶正在利用一些高價值 GPU 來拖累網路晶片，這導致這些 GPU 的數量大幅增長，並且隨著高效能運算進入這一年路線圖節奏，他們的產品路線圖也顯著加速。

So the networking business, although it's not at the volumes of something like HBM, continues to be a strong and growing part of our overall foundry and logic business despite the weakness in areas like PC.

因此，儘管網路業務的產量不如 HBM，但儘管 PC 等領域表現疲軟，它仍然是我們整體代工和邏輯業務中強勁且不斷增長的一部分。

Okay. So it kind of sounds like you'll have a second half ramp in multiple different markets. And I guess I would assume that Q1 is going to be the bottom of revenue in this calendar year.

好的。因此，這聽起來像是您將在多個不同的市場中迎來下半年的成長。我想我會認為第一季將是今年收入的最低點。

That's certainly the way we currently see it. And if I point you back to 2024, we saw a very similar Q1. I'm not going to imprint seasonality on this, but there are often lumpiness in this business as things go through different product cycles and ramp cycles. And I'd take you back to 12 months ago, where we had a very similar Q1 and grew significantly over that. Remember, in 2024, we grew the top line 15% over 2023. I'm not suggesting that we're going to grow 15% again. But all of these factors, whether it's HBM4, PC recovery, some of the new customer qualifications, we do expect to drive year-over-year top line growth for FormFactor.

這確實是我們目前的看法。如果我回顧 2024 年，我們會看到非常相似的第一季。我不會將季節性因素強加於此，但隨著產品經歷不同的產品週期和成長週期，這個行業經常會出現波動。回顧 12 個月前，當時我們的第一季業績非常相似，但實現了顯著成長。請記住，2024 年我們的營收比 2023 年成長了 15%。我並不是說我們會再次實現 15% 的成長。但所有這些因素，無論是 HBM4、PC 復甦還是一些新客戶的資質，我們確實預計會推動 FormFactor 的營收年增。

(Operator Instructions) Krish Sankar, TD Cowen.

（操作員指示） Krish Sankar，TD Cowen。

Hi, this is Robert Mertens online for Chris. Thanks for taking my questions. One, just could you provide a bit more color on what you're seeing within the Systems business. The last 3 quarters have done quite well with silicon photonics being highlighted. But I know there are a lot of other R&D-driven portions of that business, whether it's silicon carbide or quantum. But looking at the March outlook, could you just sort of partition how much maybe due to typical seasonality versus near-term end digestion and then just further out in the year, if there are any sort of areas within that business, that would be the most meaningful drivers to growth?

你好，我是 Chris 的線上客服 Robert Mertens。感謝您回答我的問題。首先，您能否更詳細地介紹一下您在系統業務方面看到的情況。過去三個季度表現相當不錯，矽光子學尤為突出。但我知道該業務還有很多其他由研發驅動的部分，無論是碳化矽還是量子。但是從三月的展望來看，您能否區分出其中有多少可能是由於典型的季節性因素與近期的消化作用，以及在今年進一步發展的過程中，如果該業務中存在任何領域，那麼這些領域將成為最有意義的增長驅動力？

Yes. So the Systems segment often does have this seasonality, again, because of our customers' annual budgeting process, often their fiscal years and calendar years align. One of the things that's really got us excited in the Systems segment is the transition of silicon photonics and co-packaged optics to pilot production. This is an area where we've been engaged in the lab with leading customers for a long time and have an installed base of over 100 systems. And we're leveraging that know-how and those customer relationships to work with partners like Advantest to drive this to high-volume production.

是的。因此，系統部門通常具有這種季節性，同樣，由於我們客戶的年度預算流程，他們的財政年度和日曆年度通常是一致的。在系統領域，真正讓我們興奮的事情之一是矽光子學和共封裝光學元件向試生產過渡。在這一領域，我們長期與領先的客戶在實驗室合作，並擁有超過 100 個系統的安裝基礎。我們正在利用這些專業知識和客戶關係與 Advantest 等合作夥伴合作，推動大量生產。

We expect that to start to happen in the second half of 2025. We're working very actively with customers, with foundries right now on making sure we're ready for that ramp. I think if you interpolate our customers' road maps, it's probably really a 2026 volume event. But we definitely see some growth there. I think the other one to highlight is quantum, right? It's probably, again, not a 2025 event, but we're trying to build a leadership position in test and measurement for the quantum computing industry. It's in an investment phase right now for us and for the overall industry.

我們預計這將在 2025 年下半年開始實現。我們目前正在與客戶和代工廠積極合作，以確保我們已為這項產能提升做好準備。我認為，如果你插入我們客戶的路線圖，它可能真的是 2026 年的大量事件。但我們確實看到了一些成長。我認為另一個需要強調的是量子，對嗎？這可能不會在 2025 年發生，但我們正在努力在量子運算產業的測試和測量領域建立領導地位。對我們和整個產業來說，現在正處於投資階段。

And we are seeing some interesting opportunities and growth prospects there. The overall systems business growth is going to be driven by those factors but also our customers' continued investment in innovation and R&D in things like high power, in things like new silicon nodes. It's a very broad-based business. But I think probably the most exciting tangible growth opportunity in 2025 and into 2026 is co-packaged optics and silicon photonics.

我們在那裡看到了一些有趣的機會和成長前景。整體系統業務的成長將受到這些因素的推動，同時也將受到我們的客戶在高功率、新矽節點等領域的創新和研發的持續投資的推動。這是一項涉及面非常廣泛的業務。但我認為 2025 年和 2026 年最令人興奮的實際成長機會可能是共封裝光學和矽光子學。

Great. That's very helpful. And then maybe just if I can sneak one more in. I know we've gone over the high bandwidth memory quite a bit, but it looks like maybe the DRAM probe cards could benefit in the second half margin-wise with new non-high bandwidth memory probe cards being introduced. Have you ever given out a breakdown sort of between what the margins of high bandwidth memory are versus more of the traditional DDR designs?

偉大的。這非常有幫助。然後也許我還可以再偷偷地進去一個。我知道我們已經對高頻寬記憶體進行了相當多的討論，但看起來，隨著​​新的非高頻寬記憶體偵測卡的推出，DRAM 偵測卡可能會在下半年獲得邊際效益。您是否曾經詳細分析過高頻寬記憶體與傳統 DDR 設計的優缺點？

I will take this one. We didn't specify the differences between HBM gross margins and other DRAM gross margins. But we did say that HBM revenue because the cards are differentiated, because our technology there is unique is -- has higher margins within the DRAM gross margin family. Not all the way up to the foundry and logic gross margin, although it could be similar or equal to some low-end foundry and logic design gross margin.

我要這個。我們沒有具體說明HBM毛利率與其他DRAM毛利率的差異。但我們確實說過，由於 HBM 卡具有差異化，而且我們的技術獨一無二，因此在 DRAM 毛利率系列中利潤率更高。雖然它可能與一些低端代工和邏輯設計的毛利率相似或相等，但並非一直達到代工和邏輯設計的毛利率。

Okay. Got it. Thank you. That's helpful. That's all for me.

好的。知道了。謝謝。這很有幫助。對我來說就這些了。

Tom Diffely, D.A. Davidson.

湯姆·迪菲利、D.A.戴維森。

Yeah, good afternoon. Thank you for the questions. Shai, just following up on that previous question. If you see foundry and logic and maybe microprocessors being a smaller percentage of the business going forward. How impactful would that be to your kind of corporate gross margin going forward?

是的，下午好。謝謝您的提問。Shai，我只是想繼續回答之前的問題。如果您發現代工、邏輯和微處理器在未來的業務中所佔的比例會更小。這對貴公司未來的毛利率有何影響？

So it's a good reminder that we are committed to our target model. Our target model is 47% gross margin at $850 million of revenue. But we are currently delivering revenues with a very different mix than when we put our target model in place. Now there are a few things that we are working on to improve that, together with a few things that really needs to happen in the industry for us to achieve the target model gross margin.

所以這是一個很好的提醒，我們致力於我們的目標模型。我們的目標模式是實現 8.5 億美元的營收，毛利率達到 47%。但我們目前的收入結構與我們實施目標模式時相比有很大不同。現在，我們正在努力改進這一狀況，同時也正在做一些產業真正需要發生的事情，以便我們可以實現目標模型毛利率。

We are developing, as Mike mentioned in the prepared remarks, a lower-cost DRAM architecture that can improve the DRAM gross margin, bring it closer to the foundry and logic margin. But we're also targeting a higher market share in the higher-margin foundry and logic market. And we also have a few internal initiatives to improve margins, all targeting improving the margins across the different products. But an important part is we need the overall end markets to recover since we need the higher volume to achieve our target model.

正如 Mike 在準備好的演講中提到的那樣，我們正在開發一種低成本的 DRAM 架構，可以提高 DRAM 毛利率，使其更接近代工和邏輯利潤。但我們也瞄準了利潤率更高的代工和邏輯市場，以獲得更高的市場份額。我們也採取了一些內部措施來提高利潤率，所有措施都旨在提高不同產品的利潤率。但重要的是我們需要整體終端市場復甦，因為我們需要更高的銷售量來實現我們的目標模式。

Okay. That seems to make sense. And switching gears here, Mike, when you look at the acquisition, FICT, is the main thrust there just to keep an uninterrupted supply or maybe exclusivity of what you're currently getting? Or is it really to kind of mold or bend the work going forward to what you really need to have to happen?

好的。這似乎很有道理。麥克，換個話題，當您考慮收購 FICT 時，主要目的是否只是為了保持不間斷的供應，或者是為了保證目前所獲得產品的獨家供應？或者它真的是為了塑造或改變工作，使之朝著你真正需要的方向發展？

It's much more the latter. If we wanted exclusivity and vertical integration, we would have bought the whole thing. This is more about partnering to accelerate our product road map, FICT's product road map and as I said in response to one of the other questions, really make sure we're meeting the challenges associated with high-performance compute on the accelerating road map that high-performance compute is on. So the company is going to operate independently. We'll obviously have a seat at the table with a 20% ownership stake. But our goal is to grow that business and better align their future product road map with ours to produce more competitive products for FormFactor.

後者更為明顯。如果我們想要獨家經營和垂直整合，我們就會買下整個公司。這更多的是關於合作以加速我們的產品路線圖，FICT 的產品路線圖，正如我在回答另一個問題時所說的那樣，真正確保我們在高效能運算加速路線圖上應對與高效能運算相關的挑戰。因此該公司將獨立運作。我們顯然將擁有 20% 的所有權。但我們的目標是發展業務，並更好地將他們未來的產品路線圖與我們的路線圖結合起來，為 FormFactor 生產更具競爭力的產品。

And so when you look at the design cycles for those type of products, if you get involved today, is that for products that are one, two years out then?

那麼，當您查看這些類型產品的設計週期時，如果您今天參與其中，那麼這些產品是否需要一兩年的時間才能面世？

Yes. I mean there's two design cycles nested inside each other. There's if you like, an architectural design cycle where we're meeting maybe requirements for, let's call it, 1 nanometer logic. But inside that, there's a whole bunch of multiple designs that need to be customized and the integration between FICT's products and our products is a much higher frequency design cycle. So 1 to 2 years for that 1 nanometer transition, if you like, but much tighter cycles for collaborating on the individual customer design. So we should be able to exert some impact on this as we go through 2025.

是的。我的意思是有兩個設計週期相互嵌套。如果你願意的話，我們可以在一個架構設計週期中滿足所謂的 1 奈米邏輯的要求。但其中，有大量的多種設計需要客製化，而 FICT 的產品與我們的產品之間的整合是一個更高頻率的設計週期。因此，如果你願意的話，1 奈米的轉變需要 1 到 2 年的時間，但對於單一客戶設計的協作來說，週期要緊湊得多。因此，到 2025 年，我們應該能夠對此產生一些影響。

Great. Thank you for your time.

偉大的。感謝您抽出時間。

Christian Schwab, Craig-Hallum.

克里斯蒂安·施瓦布，克雷格·哈勒姆。

Hey guys that I had a question on high bandwidth memory. There's varying third-party research on growth rate, but the one, I guess, I'm looking says 26%. Given increased capital intensity on HBM4, if that 26% is accurate, is it safe to assume that high bandwidth memory should grow even faster than that in '25 over '24?

嘿，大家好，我有一個關於高頻寬記憶體的問題。關於成長率，第三方研究各不相同，但我看到的研究顯示成長率為 26%。考慮到 HBM4 的資本強度增加，如果 26% 是準確的，那麼是否可以安全地假設高頻寬記憶體的成長速度應該比 25 年比 24 年更快？

Yes, Christian, I think that's a fair assumption, right? When you look at the dynamics of moving from HBM3 to HBM4, more layers, and that means higher test intensity. We've already seen that in the move from HBM2 to HBM3 to HBM3E. And you can see that we added over $100 million in revenue associated with HBM in 2024. So a good proof point there.

是的，克里斯蒂安，我認為這是一個合理的假設，對嗎？當您觀察從 HBM3 到 HBM4 的動態變化時，會發現層數更多，這意味著測試強度更高。我們已經看到了從 HBM2 到 HBM3 再到 HBM3E 的轉變。您可以看到，我們在 2024 年增加了超過 1 億美元的與 HBM 相關的收入。這是一個很好的證明點。

I think the other piece that goes into it is complexity, and complexity in moving from HBM3 to HBM4 really is higher test speeds, higher chip clock rates, which are a more complex probe card and a more valuable probe card. So we do expect that we're going to be able to outgrow the overall HBM industry when it's in this phase of ramping quickly with high complexity and the need for our customers to push parts of the door.

我認為另一個因素是複雜性，從 HBM3 轉向 HBM4 的複雜性實際上在於更高的測試速度、更高的晶片時脈頻率，這是一種更複雜的探測卡和更有價值的探測卡。因此，我們確實期望，當 HBM 行業處於快速發展、高度複雜且需要我們的客戶推動部分業務的階段時，我們將能夠超越整個 HBM 行業。

Great. No other questions. Thank you.

偉大的。沒有其他問題。謝謝。

(Operator Instructions) And this does conclude the question-and-answer session of today's program. I'd like to hand the program back to Mike Slessor for any further remarks.

（操作員指示）今天節目的問答環節到此結束。我想將程式交還給 Mike Slessor，以便他提出進一步的意見。

All right. Thanks, everybody, for joining us today. We'll talk to you soon.

好的。感謝大家今天加入我們。我們很快會和你聯絡。

Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for your participation in today's conference. This does conclude the program. You may now disconnect. Good day.

女士們、先生們，感謝各位參加今天的會議。該計劃確實就此結束。您現在可以斷開連線。再會。