Ballard Power Systems Inc (BLDP) 2024 Q4 法說會逐字稿

Thank you for standing by. This is the conference operator. Welcome to the Ballard Power Systems fourth-quarter 2024 results conference call. As a reminder, all participants are in listen-only mode and the conference is being recorded.

感謝您的支持。這是會議主持人。歡迎參加 Ballard Power Systems 2024 年第四季業績電話會議。提醒一下，所有參與者都處於只聽模式，會議正在錄音。

(Operator Instructions)

（操作員指令）

I would now like to turn the conference over to Sumit Kundu, Manager of Investor Relations, please go ahead.

現在，我想將會議交給投資者關係經理 Sumit Kundu，請開始。

Thank you, operator, and good morning. Welcome to Ballard's Fourth Quarter Financial and Operating Results Conference Call. With us on today's call are Randy MacEwen, Ballard's CEO; and Kate Igbalode, Chief Financial Officer.

謝謝接線員，早安。歡迎參加巴拉德第四季財務與經營業績電話會議。參加今天電話會議的有 Ballard 執行長 Randy MacEwen；以及財務長 Kate Igbalode。

We will be making forward-looking statements that are based on management's current expectations, beliefs and assumptions concerning future events. Actual results could be materially different. Please refer to our newly filed annual information form and other public fillings for our complete disclaimer and related information.

我們將根據管理層對未來事件的當前預期、信念和假設做出前瞻性陳述。實際結果可能會有重大差異。請參閱我們新提交的年度資訊表和其他公開文件，以了解我們的完整免責聲明和相關資訊。

I'll now turn the call over to Randy.

我現在將電話轉給蘭迪。

Thank you, Sumit, and welcome, everyone to today's conference call. 2024 was a difficult year for the hydrogen fuel cell industry. Amidst prolonged policy uncertainty, a multiyear pushout in development of hydrogen projects and the deployment of fuel cell applications and a challenging funding environment, and industry rationalization is underway.

謝謝你，蘇米特，歡迎大家參加今天的電話會議。 2024年對於氫燃料電池產業來說是艱難的一年。在長期的政策不確定性、氫能項目開發和燃料電池應用部署的多年推動以及充滿挑戰的融資環境和行業合理化正在進行中。

Notwithstanding this challenging industry backdrop, Ballard achieved important progress in 2024. And I want to highlight four key achievements relating to order intake, product shipments, operating cost reductions and product development milestones.

儘管面臨這樣的產業挑戰，巴拉德仍在 2024 年取得了重要進展。我想強調與訂單量、產品出貨量、營運成本降低和產品開發里程碑相關的四個關鍵成就。

First, on order intake. Put simply, 2024 was a record-breaking year for Ballard for two -- total new order intake for our Power Products. We secured new order intake of approximately $113 million during 2024 punctuated by new order intake of $75.4 million in Q4. Both were records. We ended the year with a record year ending order backlog of $173.5 million, an increase of 41% compared to the end of Q3. This order backlog includes a 12-month order book of $98.9 million, up 48% compared to the prior year.

首先，關於訂單量。簡而言之，2024 年對 Ballard 來說，是創紀錄的一年，因為我們的電源產品新訂單總量創下了兩項紀錄。我們在 2024 年獲得了約 1.13 億美元的新訂單，其中第四季的新訂單量為 7,540 萬美元。兩項都是記錄。我們以創紀錄的 1.735 億美元的年末訂單積壓量結束了這一財年，與第三季末相比增長了 41%。該訂單積壓包括 12 個月的 9,890 萬美元訂單，比上年增長 48%。

Now this outcome is particularly noteworthy given the challenging industry dynamics and the contrast with most of our competitors underscoring Ballard's technology and market position, we were front and center for most major commercial order announcements in the European and North American markets for PEM fuel cells in our target applications in 2024.

鑑於充滿挑戰的行業動態以及與大多數競爭對手的對比，這一結果尤其值得注意，凸顯了巴拉德的技術和市場地位，在 2024 年的目標應用中，我們在歐洲和北美市場針對 PEM 燃料電池的大多數主要商業訂單公告中處於領先地位。

We move next to product shipments. Delivery of fuel cell engines in 2024 grew by approximately 30%, increasing from over 500 engines in 2023 to more than 660 in 2024. This marked the fourth consecutive year of engine shipment growth, representing a CAGR of approximately 40%.

接下來我們進行產品出貨。2024 年燃料電池引擎的交付量將成長約 30%，從 2023 年的 500 多台增加到 2024 年的 660 多台。這是引擎出貨量連續第四年增長，複合年增長率約為 40%。

Our 2024 deliveries of PEM fuel cell engines accounted for over 90% of our total revenue in 2024. We shipped a total of 56.5 megawatts of fuel cell engines, reflecting a 10% increase from 51.2 megawatts in 2023. These engine shipment milestones represent new records for Ballard and are critical proof points in our manufacturing execution capabilities.

我們 2024 年交付的 PEM 燃料電池引擎占我們 2024 年總收入的 90% 以上。我們總共出貨了 56.5 兆瓦的燃料電池發動機，比 2023 年的 51.2 兆瓦成長 10%。這些引擎出貨里程碑代表了巴拉德的新紀錄，也是我們製造執行能力的關鍵證明點。

With our shipments in 2024, we continue to grow industry-leading field deployments, with valuable real-world data on the performance of our PEM fuel cell engines in various applications and duty cycles. This data helps us gain deeper insights into our customer requirements, and product performance in various operating conditions.

隨著 2024 年的出貨量，我們將繼續擴大業界領先的現場部署，並提供有關 PEM 燃料電池引擎在各種應用和工作循環中的性能的寶貴真實數據。這些數據有助於我們更深入地了解客戶需求以及產品在各種操作條件下的表現。

This rich field data is another Ballard differentiator and helps inform our next-generation product development programs, reliability and warranty models and field maintenance approach. We're pleased to report we had another successful year with our engines deployed and monitored in the field, with 0 reported safety incidents and fuel cell engine availability around 99% in 2024.

豐富的現場數據是 Ballard 的另一個差異化因素，有助於我們了解下一代產品開發計劃、可靠性和保固模型以及現場維護方法。我們很高興地報告，我們的引擎在現場部署和監控方面又取得了成功的一年，報告的安全事故為 0 起，燃料電池引擎的可用性在 2024 年達到 99% 左右。

We move next to operating costs. In 2024, we observed further indicators of slowing hydrogen and fuel cell policy implementation and market adoption. We noted a material weakening of the financial position of certain customers, and we also observed a continuing deterioration in the financing environment for our industry.

接下來我們討論營運成本。2024 年，我們觀察到氫能和燃料電池政策實施和市場採用放緩的進一步指標。我們注意到某些客戶的財務狀況大幅減弱，我們也發現我們行業的融資環境持續惡化。

As this context represents a significant headwind to our corporate growth plan, we initiated a global corporate restructuring in September, to moderate our investment intensity and pacing to better align with delayed market adoption. We expect our restructuring to reduce total annualized operating costs by more than 30%, with a substantial part of the anticipated reductions being realized in 2025. Our restructuring included a sizable workforce reduction, rationalization and consolidation of certain global operations and facilities, and a reduction in certain planned capital expenditures.

由於這種情況對我們的企業成長計畫造成了重大阻力，我們在9月份啟動了全球企業重組，以調整我們的投資強度和節奏，以更好地適應延遲的市場採用。我們預計，重組將使年度總營運成本降低 30% 以上，其中預計削減的大部分將在 2025 年實現。我們的重組包括大量裁員、合理化和合併某些全球業務和設施以及削減某些計畫資本支出。

Given the revised industry outlook, there's no business case for production capacity expansion investments for the foreseeable future. Accordingly, we have deferred any final investment decision on the proposed Texas gigafactory to 2026, pending market adoption and demand indicators.

鑑於產業前景的修正，在可預見的未來，生產能力擴張投資沒有商業理由。因此，我們將對擬議的德州超級工廠的任何最終投資決定推遲到 2026 年，以待市場採用和需求指標。

With continued policy and other -- uncertainties and other challenges in the China fuel cell market and underperformance of the Weichai-Ballard JV, and as part of our global restructuring, we also reduced our corporate cost structure in China and initiated a strategic review of the Weichai-Ballard JV. Following this review, we will not be making any additional significant investments in China, including in the Weichai-Ballard JV for the foreseeable future.

由於中國燃料電池市場政策和其他不確定性及其他挑戰持續存在，以及濰柴巴拉德合資企業表現不佳，作為我們全球重組的一部分，我們還降低了在中國的企業成本結構，並啟動了對濰柴巴拉德合資企業的戰略審查。經過此次審查，在可預見的未來，我們將不會在中國進行任何額外的重大投資，包括對濰柴巴拉德合資企業的投資。

As we look to our long-term strategic plan, we continue to believe hydrogen and PEM fuel cells will play an important long-term role in decarbonizing select heavy mobility and stationary power applications. We believe there are certain use cases where customers will be attracted to the differentiated PEM fuel cell value proposition of long-range, fast refueling, heavy payload, and zero tailpipe emissions.

當我們著眼於我們的長期策略計畫時，我們始終相信氫和 PEM 燃料電池將在部分重型機動和固定式電力應用的脫碳過程中發揮重要的長期作用。我們相信，在某些用例中，客戶會被長距離、快速加油、重載和零廢氣排放等差異化的 PEM 燃料電池價值主張所吸引。

However, given near-term market challenges, we expect further industry rationalization, failures, restructurings and consolidation in 2025. We will continue to closely monitor various factors impacting the commercial adoption of our markets and products, and continue to reassess our investment plans, cost structure and cash usage based on these factors.

然而，考慮到近期的市場挑戰，我們預計 2025 年產業將進一步合理化、失敗、重組和整合。我們將繼續密切關注影響我們市場和產品商業應用的各種因素，並根據這些因素繼續重新評估我們的投資計劃、成本結構和現金使用。

We started 2025 with over $600 million in cash and no bank debt. With our reductions in operating costs, and changes to our long-term CapEx plans, we have no near or midterm financing requirements. Let me repeat that, we have no near or midterm financing requirements.

到 2025 年，我們手上已有超過 6 億美元現金，且沒有任何銀行債務。隨著我們營運成本的降低和長期資本支出計畫的改變，我們沒有近期或中期融資需求。讓我重複一遍，我們沒有近期或中期融資需求。

And now we move to product development milestones. 2024 was a banner year at Ballard for product innovation, including our programs on product cost reduction. We made important progress against our technology and product road map with the execution of high-impact development programs. We launched our ninth-generation high-performance fuel cell engine named FCmove-XD, resetting the industry standard for PEM fuel cell engine performance for heavy-duty mobility.

現在我們進入產品開發里程碑。 2024 年是巴拉德產品創新輝煌的一年，包括我們的產品成本降低計畫。我們透過實施高影響力的開發項目，在技術和產品路線圖方面取得了重要進展。我們推出了第九代高性能燃料電池引擎FCmove-XD，重新樹立了重型機動車PEM燃料電池引擎性能的業界標準。

FCmove-XD delivers significant improvements in reliability, durability and efficiency, power density, scalability, serviceability and total cost of ownership. We have programs underway to drive down the cost of next-generation modules through simplifying system design, reducing part count and joint supplier balance of plant component development.

FCmove-XD 在可靠性、耐用性和效率、功率密度、可擴展性、可維護性和整體擁有成本方面實現了顯著的提高。我們正在進行的計劃旨在透過簡化系統設計、減少零件數量以及聯合供應商平衡工廠組件開發來降低下一代模組的成本。

For our fuel cell stacks, we realized important milestones on our development programs for membrane electrode assemblies, bipolar plates and stack compression hardware. We also successfully completed the initial development phase of Project Forge, our high-volume bipolar plate manufacturing line that we've talked about before. This is a key achievement on our ongoing efforts to substantially lower bipolar plate costs and increased plate manufacturing capacity without expanding our Burnaby manufacturing footprint. Taken together, our product cost reduction initiatives are valuable levers to enable gross margin expansion.

對於我們的燃料電池堆，我們在膜電極組件、雙極板和堆壓縮硬體的開發項目中實現了重要的里程碑。我們也成功完成了 Project Forge 的初始開發階段，這是我們之前談到的大批量雙極板生產線。這是我們持續努力在不擴大本拿比製造基地的情況下大幅降低雙極板成本、提高板製造能力的一項重要成就。總的來說，我們的產品成本降低措施是提高毛利率的寶貴槓桿。

Next, I'd like to move to some comments on key verticals, starting with bus. The bus vertical was a standout in 2024, driven by growing demand for fuel cell buses in both Europe and North America. Industry-wide, in Europe, 378 fuel cell buses were registered in 2024, marking an impressive 82% increase from the previous year. Additionally, in the US Federal Transit Administration Low-No awards was the most successful for fuel cell buses to date, showing an increase of over 150% above the 2023 year awards.

接下來，我想就一些關鍵垂直行業發表一些評論，首先是公車。受歐洲和北美對燃料電池公車的需求不斷增長的推動，公車垂直產業在 2024 年將脫穎而出。在整個產業中，歐洲在 2024 年註冊了 378 輛燃料電池公車，比前一年增長了 82%。此外，美國聯邦運輸管理局的 Low-No 獎項是迄今為止燃料電池公車最成功的一次，比 2023 年的獎項增加了 150% 以上。

Ballard's bus market revenue was approximately $44 million in 2024, a 51% increase compared to 2023. And this represented over 60% of our total revenue for 2024. Bus engines account for almost half of our current order backlog. Indeed, over the past year, we've secured orders from seven bus OEMs for more than 1,600 fuel cell engines totaling around 130 megawatts, for city transit buses across Europe and North America. This is roughly triple the number of engines currently in operation today in those regions.

2024 年巴拉德的巴士市場收入約為 4,400 萬美元，比 2023 年成長 51%。這占我們 2024 年總收入的 60% 以上。客車引擎占我們目前訂單積壓的近一半。事實上，在過去的一年裡，我們已經從 7 家公車原始設備製造商那裡獲得了超過 1,600 台燃料電池引擎的訂單，總功率約為 130 兆瓦，將用於歐洲和北美的城市公車。這大約是這些地區目前運轉的引擎數量的三倍。

Notably, these orders include the largest fuel cell bus contracts on record in both Europe and North America. For example, early in 2024, Solaris signed a long-term supply agreement for 1,000 fuel cell engines. And New Flyer in North America, increased its order significantly doubling from the previous year with a purchase commitment for 200 fuel cell engines slated for delivery in the North American market in 2025. We also are collaborating with GILLIG, another leading heavy-duty transit bus manufacturer in the US to expand their zero bus lineup -- zero-emission bus line up.

值得注意的是，這些訂單包括歐洲和北美有史以來最大的燃料電池公車合約。例如，2024年初，Solaris簽署了1,000台燃料電池引擎的長期供應協議。北美地區的New Flyer訂單量較上年大幅增加一倍，承諾購買200台燃料電池發動機，計劃於2025年在北美市場交付。我們也與美國另一家領先的重型公車製造商 GILLIG 合作，擴大他們的零排放公車陣容。

We move next to truck. Now the truck market is disappointed with adoption time lines being materially pushed out. There's also been several business failures of smaller integrators of zero-emission trucks which has caused challenges in this market. While we continue engagements with multiple large truck OEMs as they consider long-term development and commercialization of fuel cell trucks. We don't anticipate any material volumes in the truck market in the near term.

我們移動到卡車旁邊。現在，卡車市場對採用時間表被大幅推遲感到失望。一些規模較小的零排放卡車整合商也相繼倒閉，為該市場帶來了挑戰。我們繼續與多家大型卡車原始設備製造商合作，因為他們考慮燃料電池卡車的長期開發和商業化。我們預計短期內卡車市場不會出現任何實質的銷售成長。

Turning next to rail. We're excited, indeed very excited about the market opportunity in the North American freight rail market, which is a market defined by long, heavy, high-powered trains operating on non-electrified long-distance routes. Hydrogen fuel cells present a transformative opportunity to replace traditional diesel engines with cleaner, low-emission powertrain solutions. CPKC, a leading North American rail operator is at the forefront of this innovation, leading the way in the adoption of fuel cell-powered locomotives.

在鐵軌旁轉彎。我們對北美貨運鐵路市場的市場機會感到非常興奮，這個市場的特點是在非電氣化長途路線上運行的長、重、高功率列車。氫燃料電池提供了一個改變的機會，可以用更清潔、低排放的動力系統解決方案取代傳統的柴油引擎。北美領先的鐵路營運商 CPKC 處於這項創新的前沿，在燃料電池機車的應用方面處於領先地位。

In December, Ballard signed a landmark Long Term Supply Agreement with CPKC to provide 98 fuel cell engines totaling approximately 20 megawatts for delivery in 2025. This order represents the largest PEM fuel cell engine contract ever placed for use in freight locomotives globally, underscoring the significant role Ballard is playing in this transition to sustainable and low-emission freight rail.

12 月，巴拉德與 CPKC 簽署了具有里程碑意義的長期供應協議，將提供 98 台燃料電池發動機，總計約 20 兆瓦，將於 2025 年交付。該訂單是全球貨運機車史上最大的 PEM 燃料電池發動機合同，凸顯了巴拉德在向可持續和低排放貨運鐵路轉型過程中發揮的重要作用。

We also marked additional engine sales for passenger rail applications with 8 megawatts to Stadler to support low-carbon transit in California rounding at a positive year of order intake for the rail vertical. Also I want to highlight in Germany, 6 Siemens Mireo Plus H trains powered by Ballard fuel cell engines have recently entered into passenger service in the Berlin area.

我們還向 Stadler 額外銷售了 8 兆瓦的客運鐵路發動機，以支持加州的低碳交通，使鐵路垂直行業的訂單量取得了積極的一年。我還想強調一下，在德國，6 輛搭載巴拉德燃料電池引擎的西門子 Mireo Plus H 列車最近已在柏林地區投入客運服務。

We move to stationary. And similar to the rail sector, while the stationary market remains in its early stages of adoption, we made significant progress and saw notable advancements throughout the year. We secured a 15-megawatt order from a repeat customer, specializing in renewable off-grid power generation.

我們移至靜止狀態。與鐵路行業類似，雖然固定市場仍處於採用的早期階段，但我們取得了重大進展，並在全年取得了顯著的進步。我們從一位回頭客那裡獲得了 15 兆瓦的訂單，該客戶專門從事可再生離網發電。

Additionally, we formed a strategic partnership with Vertiv to develop a backup power solution for data centers. Co-development work is underway and tracking to plan. In Q4, we divested our small backup power business, which was non-core to our strategy going forward. This allows us to focus more sharply on high-power station applications aligned with our core product strategy.

此外，我們與 Vertiv 建立了策略合作夥伴關係，共同開發資料中心備用電源解決方案。共同開發工作正在進行中並按計劃進行。在第四季度，我們剝離了小型備用電源業務，因為這對我們未來的策略來說不是核心業務。這使我們能夠更加專注於符合我們核心產品策略的高功率電站應用。

We next provide some commentary on the status of hydrogen policies in the dynamic US market. First, from September to January, the US Department of Energy was extraordinarily busy with various funding awards related to the hydrogen industry, including hydrogen hubs, grants, credits and loans.

接下來，我們將對動態美國市場中氫能政策的現狀提供一些評論。首先，從9月到1月，美國能源部異常忙碌，負責與氫能產業相關的各種資金獎勵，包括氫能中心、補助金、信貸和貸款。

And second, in early January, the Department of Treasury and IRS released at long last, the final rules for the 45V Clean Hydrogen Production Tax Credit. These rules were an improvement from the draft proposed in December 2023. Unfortunately, following that and with a flurry of executive orders, from the White House. What we've seen is a temporary pause on IRA and IIJA funds, including the issuance of new awards and disbursement of federal funds under open awards.

其次，1月初，財政部和國稅局終於發布了45V清潔氫生產稅收抵免的最終規則。這些規則比2023年12月提出的草案有所改進。不幸的是，隨後白宮又發布了一系列行政命令。我們看到的是 IRA 和 IIJA 資金的暫停，包括新獎項的發放和開放獎項下聯邦資金的支付。

Now we've seen a strong reaction to this proposed pause, including legal challenges. These developments likely mean the US hydrogen and fuel cell industry will experience continued policy uncertainty for the foreseeable future. Of course, we're closely tracking the dynamic tariffs context and the implications for our business.

現在我們看到了對這項暫停提議的強烈反應，包括法律挑戰。這些發展可能意味著美國氫和燃料電池產業在可預見的未來將繼續面臨政策不確定性。當然，我們正在密切關注動態關稅環境及其對我們業務的影響。

Now a few final comments before I hand the call over to Kate to walk through our financial results.

在我將電話交給凱特介紹我們的財務結果之前，我還有幾點最後的評論。

In 2024, while our financial results, including revenue and margins faced challenges from broader industry headwinds, we made significant progress in several important areas, including order intake, product shipments, operating cost reductions and product milestones. We started 2025 with an exciting position for expected deliveries for the year.

2024 年，雖然我們的財務表現（包括收入和利潤率）面臨著來自更廣泛的行業逆風的挑戰，但我們在訂單量、產品出貨量、營運成本降低和產品里程碑等幾個重要領域取得了重大進展。2025 年伊始，我們對於全年的預期交付量有著令人興奮的預期。

Our 12-month order book stood at $98.9 million, up 48% compared to the prior year. Based on our order book and sales activity, we expect a solid year for production and shipment of fuel cell engines for the bus, rail and stationary markets in 2025.

我們的 12 個月訂單金額為 9,890 萬美元，比上年增長 48%。根據我們的訂單和銷售活動，我們預計 2025 年將是公車、鐵路和固定市場燃料電池引擎生產和出貨量強勁的一年。

Our 2025 focus is on our customers and our controllables, including prioritized product development and product cost reduction programs, while also maintaining disciplined spending and balance sheet strength for long-term competitiveness and sustainability.

我們的 2025 重點是客戶和可控因素，包括優先產品開發和產品成本降低計劃，同時保持嚴格的支出和資產負債表實力，以實現長期競爭力和永續性。

With that, I'll now pass the call over to Kate.

說完這些，我現在將電話轉給凱特。

Thank you, Randy. Amidst challenging market conditions, particularly the delay in the availability of low-cost, low-carbon hydrogen, which has led to a slower adoption of hydrogen technology, compounded by materials removed from our order book that were communicated in Q3, Ballard reported $24.5 million in revenue for Q4, reflecting a 42% decrease compared to the same period last year.

謝謝你，蘭迪。在充滿挑戰的市場條件下，尤其是低成本、低碳氫化合物供應的延遲，導致氫氣技術的採用速度放緩，再加上我們在第三季度從訂單中刪除的材料，巴拉德公佈第四季度的收入為 2,450 萬美元，與去年同期相比下降了 42%。

For the full year, revenue totaled $69.7 million, representing a 32% decline compared to 2023. Ballard reported a Q4 gross margin of negative 13% and an improvement of 9 percentage points compared to Q4 2023. However, lower annual revenue and a product mix heavily weighted towards Power Products placed pressure on our gross margins for full year 2024, which decreased by 11 percentage-points from 2023, reaching negative 32%.

全年收入總計 6,970 萬美元，較 2023 年下降 32%。巴拉德報告第四季毛利率為負 13%，與 2023 年第四季相比提高了 9 個百分點。然而，較低的年收入和主要以電力產品為主的產品組合給我們 2024 年全年的毛利率帶來了壓力，較 2023 年下降了 11 個百分點，達到負 32%。

We reported total operating expenses of $161.3 million for the year, which included a $17 million restructuring provision, of which $0.7 million was incurred in the fourth quarter. Excluding these onetime costs, underlying total operating expenses were $144.3 million at the lower end of our guidance range of $145 million to $165 million.

我們報告的全年總營運費用為 1.613 億美元，其中包括 1,700 萬美元的重組準備金，其中 70 萬美元發生在第四季度。除這些一次性成本外，基本總營運費用為 1.443 億美元，處於我們 1.45 億美元至 1.65 億美元指引範圍的低端。

Looking ahead to 2025, we expect total operating expenses to range between $100 million and $120 million, representing an approximately 30% reduction or $45 million from 2024. Our 2024 capital expenditures were $27.6 million, also at the low end of our 2024 guidance range of $25 million to $40 million. We expect 2025 capital expenditures to fall between $15 million and $25 million, representing a reduction of approximately 38% or $12.5 million from 2024.

展望 2025 年，我們預計總營運費用將在 1 億美元至 1.2 億美元之間，比 2024 年減少約 30%，即 4,500 萬美元。我們的 2024 年資本支出為 2760 萬美元，也處於我們 2024 年 2500 萬至 4000 萬美元指導範圍的低端。我們預計 2025 年的資本支出將在 1,500 萬美元至 2,500 萬美元之間，比 2024 年減少約 38% 或 1,250 萬美元。

Our 2024 cash usage of $147 million was down 10% from the prior year due to only a portion of the restructuring benefit being realized in year. We expect to see the full benefit of our cost reduction initiatives to be achieved in 2025 with lower overall operating costs and capital investment. As of year-end, we had approximately $604 million in cash, a reduction of 20% from the previous year.

我們 2024 年的現金使用量為 1.47 億美元，較前一年下降了 10%，原因是當年僅實現了部分重組收益。我們預計，到 2025 年，我們的成本削減措施將充分發揮效益，整體營運成本和資本投資將降低。截至年底，我們擁有約 6.04 億美元現金，比上年減少 20%。

Given the current macroeconomic environment, and in the context of our 2025 operating plan, we remain disciplined in our spending, ensuring we continue to invest strategically in our growth while maintaining a robust balance sheet, accelerating our path to profitability and extending our cash runway. As Randy highlighted, as a result of these initiatives, we have no near or midterm financing requirements.

鑑於當前的宏觀經濟環境，並在我們的 2025 年營運計畫背景下，我們在支出方面仍保持紀律，確保我們繼續對我們的成長進行策略性投資，同時保持穩健的資產負債表，加快我們的獲利之路並延長我們的現金跑道。正如蘭迪所強調的，由於這些舉措，我們沒有近期或中期融資需求。

With that, I'll turn the call over to the operator for questions.

說完這些，我將把電話轉給接線生來回答問題。

Thank you. We will now begin the question-and-answer session. (Operator Instructions)

謝謝。我們現在開始問答環節。（操作員指令）

Rob Brown, Lake Street Capital Markets.

羅布布朗 (Rob Brown)，Lake Street Capital Markets。

Good morning.

早安.

Morning, Rob.

早安，羅布。

Just starting with kind of the order activity. It seems to be quite strong in the quarter. How does the order book look into '25? Is there sort of continuing activity? Or is the uncertainty there kind of weighing on things and it's too early to say kind of how '25 orders are shaping up?

剛開始某種訂單活動。本季它的表現似乎相當強勁。25 年的訂單狀況如何？是否有某種持續的活動？或者是那裡的不確定性對事情造成了壓力，現在判斷 25 個訂單的進展如何還為時過早？

Yes. Good question. I think, first of all, perhaps a comment just on the overall order backlog. So $173.5 million. I think it's notable roughly half of that is in the bus market. But interestingly, about 40% is in the rail market. And then when you look at the geographic split, roughly 60%, 40% Europe and North America. And so I do expect that split Europe, North America likely to continue as we move forward.

是的。好問題。我認為，首先，也許只是對整體訂單積壓發表評論。所以是1.735億美元。我認為值得注意的是其中大約一半是在公車市場。但有趣的是，約有 40% 在鐵路市場。然後從地理分佈來看，大約 60% 為歐洲，40% 為北美。因此我確實預計，隨著我們不斷前進，歐洲和北美的分裂局面可能會持續下去。

In terms of new order intake in 2025, there are a couple of opportunities we're working against right now that we would expect to close out likely in the April, May time frame. But I would say whether it's April, May, September, et cetera, historically, what we've seen is that Q4 is typically a large order intake month -- or quarter. We've seen that the last two years. And I do say there's volatility from quarter-to-quarter. And we are seeing when you kind of step back in 2024 and even a little bit in 2023 and Q4 of 2023, we are seeing some larger chunkier orders coming in, and so that does weight the order book in those quarters when they land.

就 2025 年的新訂單量而言，我們現在正在努力抓住幾個機會，預計這些機會可能會在 4 月或 5 月期間完成。但我想說，無論是四月、五月、九月等，從歷史上看，我們看到的是，第四季通常是訂單量較大的月份或季度。過去兩年我們已經看到了這一點。我確實說過，各季度之間確實存在波動。我們看到，當你回顧 2024 年，甚至 2023 年和 2023 年第四季時，我們會看到一些更大、更批量的訂單進來，因此當這些訂單到達時，這確實會對那些季度的訂單造成壓力。

Our goal, the last number of years has been to secure long-term supply agreements kind of platform wins with customers, lock them up, get our products into their infrastructure and into their platforms. And in some cases, those orders will effectively be burned off over the next year or two depending on how long those orders are for. So in some cases, it will take a period of time before those customers come back for follow-on orders. But we're very excited about the order intake we've really seen since Q4 2023, in Q1, 2024 and Q4, 2024, and we expect to see a couple of good quarters this year as well.

過去幾年來，我們的目標是與客戶達成長期供應協議，鎖定客戶，將我們的產品引入他們的基礎設施和平台。在某些情況下，這些訂單將在未來一兩年內被有效消耗掉，具體取決於訂單的有效期限。因此在某些情況下，這些客戶需要一段時間才能回來下後續訂單。但我們對自 2023 年第四季、2024 年第一季和 2024 年第四季以來的訂單量感到非常興奮，我們預計今年也會有幾個季度表現良好。

Okay. Great. And then on the stationary business, where are you seeing the demand growth? I know you talked about focusing on the higher power part of the market. But could you give us some color on kind of the stationary market growth that you're seeing?

好的。偉大的。那麼就文具業務而言，您看到哪些方面的需求成長？我知道您談到了關注市場上更高功率的部分。但您能否向我們介紹一下您所看到的文具市場的成長？

Yes, that's been one of the markets that I think surprised us with some of the orders and opportunity set that we've seen, and I expect we'll see some more significant orders from stationary in 2025. A couple of areas that we see is kind of the, I'll call it, weak grid or microgrid applications, think about things like filming sites or event sites or construction sites where you need power and there may not be high grid reliability. Similarly, we're seeing opportunities for EV charging, where there are some weak grid applications. So there are a few customers that are pulling on those market opportunities, and we're seeing demand from.

是的，我認為這是一個令我們感到驚訝的市場，我們看到的一些訂單和機會集，我預計 2025 年我們將看到更多來自固定裝置的重要訂單。我們看到的幾個領域，我稱之為弱電網或微電網應用，想想諸如拍攝現場、活動現場或建築工地之類的地方，這些地方需要電力，但電網可靠性可能不高。同樣，我們在一些電網應用薄弱的地方看到了電動車充電的機會。因此，有少數客戶正在抓住這些市場機會，我們也看到了需求。

And then the -- I think the data center market is still very early stage. We completed an important program or a trial, I should say, with Microsoft and Caterpillar. And now we're looking at next opportunities. And of course, we've announced the Vertiv development plan that we're working on. It's an interesting market opportunity, but we need to validate the value proposition for PEM fuel cells in that application.

然後——我認為資料中心市場仍處於早期階段。我應該說，我們與微軟和卡特彼勒合作完成了一個重要的專案或試驗。現在我們正在尋找下一個機會。當然，我們已經宣布了正在製定的 Vertiv 發展計劃。這是一個有趣的市場機會，但我們需要驗證 PEM 燃料電池在該應用中的價值主張。

So that's kind of the landscape. We're not really focused on small stationary applications. We're really looking at things that are typically 100, 200 kilowatts and up. And we have some customers that are looking at opportunities in the 1-megawatt plus range as well.

這就是景觀。我們實際上並不專注於小型固定應用。我們真正關注的是通常為 100、200 千瓦及以上的東西。我們有一些客戶也在尋找 1 兆瓦以上的機會。

Okay, thank you. I'll turn it over.

好的，謝謝。我把它翻過來。

Yeah. Thanks, Rob.

是的。謝謝，羅布。

Dushyant Ailani, Jefferies.

杜什揚特‧艾拉尼 (Dushyant Ailani)，傑富瑞 (Jefferies)。

Hi, yeah, thanks for taking my question. Just, I guess, the first one on the platform customers that you talked about. Could you share what percentage of your backlog or order book is, are those long-term platform customers versus how many of them are actually new customers?

嗨，是的，感謝您回答我的問題。我想，這只是您談到的平台客戶中的第一個。能否分享一下您的積壓訂單或訂單量佔比是多少，這些是長期平台客戶嗎？其中有多少是實際的新客戶？

Yes. The way I would think about it is that roughly, if you kind of look at our revenue last year and our revenue this year and our order book, we have probably eight customers that account for 70% to 80% of the business. And all of those eight customers are effectively repeat business. So we've done a very good job once we're getting into platforms to helping customers transition from development to trials and ultimately to more scale deployments. And so we've seen customers progress through that. There are additional customers that are on that journey as well.

是的。我的想法是，大致來說，如果你看看我們去年的收入、今年的收入和訂單，我們可能有 8 個客戶，佔業務的 70% 到 80%。而且這八位顧客其實都是回頭客。因此，一旦我們進入平台，我們就做得非常出色，幫助客戶從開發過渡到試驗，並最終實現更大規模的部署。我們看到客戶在這方面取得了進步。還有其他客戶也踏上了這樣的旅程。

Understood. And then just on the OpEx guide, the $100 million and $120 million. Could you talk about what are some of the levers you can pull to maybe kind of trend below that or towards the low end of the guide? Basically, just trying to figure out if there's any more room to stem the cash burn?

明白了。然後僅在 OpEx 指南中，就有 1 億美元和 1.2 億美元。您能否談談可以採取哪些措施，使價格趨於低於該水平或接近指南的低端？基本上，只是想弄清楚是否還有空間來阻止現金消耗？

Yes. I think that's an excellent question, particularly in light of the restructuring in September. I think Randy spoke to it very effectively in the script when we're looking at our overall program prioritization activities, and the rationalization of our product portfolio. So I think as we're moving kind of away from our legacy products and into our next generation of core products that are going to be introduced in the later part of this year and into next year, I think that's really an opportunity for us to find additional efficiencies.

是的。我認為這是一個非常好的問題，特別是考慮到九月的重組。我認為，當我們審視整體專案優先活動以及產品組合合理化時，蘭迪在腳本中非常有效地談到了這一點。因此，我認為，隨著我們逐漸擺脫傳統產品，轉向今年下半年和明年推出的下一代核心產品，我認為這對我們來說確實是尋找額外效率的機會。

Jordan Levy, Truist Securities, Inc.

喬丹·利維（Jordan Levy），Truist Securities，Inc.

Just going back to some of the earlier comments on kind of cadence of orders in 4Q, great to see that tick up. I'm just -- I think you mentioned that these -- the timing of orders can be lumpy in 4Q. I'm just wondering if at least in the US, we should expect that to be a little more lumpy this time around given some of the expiration of the fuel cell ITC and some of that sort of thing?

回顧一下之前關於第四季訂單節奏的一些評論，很高興看到這種節奏的上升。我只是 - 我想您提到過這些 - 第四季度的訂單時間可能會不穩定。我只是想知道，至少在美國，考慮到燃料電池 ITC 的部分到期以及諸如此類的事情，我們是否應該預期這次的情況會更加不穩定？

I don't think so. I think when we look at kind of the key market we have in the US is the bus market. And we continue to see a strong interest in that marketplace. And we're going to be delivering 200 engines at least in that market this year, and we're working with the key players in that market, and we're seeing that they've got sales pipelines that they're working against. And the funding that, that typically relates to the Low-No funding is really kind of not in the hydrogen space, if you would, it'll more in zero-emission buses. So we're not seeing any retraction from that initiative. Of course, everything is -- it's very dynamic and things could change. But right now, we're seeing kind of consistent type of growth opportunities in the US on the bus side.

我不這麼認為。我認為，當我們看美國的關鍵市場時，我們在美國的主要市場是公車市場。我們持續看到人們對該市場的濃厚興趣。我們今年將至少在該市場交付 200 台發動機，並且我們正在與該市場的主要參與者合作，我們發現他們已經擁有正在努力的銷售管道。通常與低排放資金相關的資金實際上並不在氫氣領域，如果你願意的話，它會更多地投入零排放公車。因此，我們沒有看到該倡議有任何撤回。當然，一切都是動態的，事情可能會改變。但目前，我們看到美國公車領域存在著持續的成長機會。

Great. And then maybe just a follow-up on Project Forge. I know you all kind of continue to make good progress on that. Can you just remind us, one, maybe on the timing of that? And then, two, kind of what the ultimate kind of impact you all expect from a margin perspective is? I know that ultimately kind of volume ramp is sort of the biggest lever, but I know that this is kind of another way to chop at some of that margin here.

偉大的。然後可能只是對 Project Forge 的後續行動。我知道你們在這方面都持續取得良好進展。您能否提醒我們一下，也許是關於時間的問題？然後，第二，從利潤率的角度來看，你們預期最終的影響是什麼？我知道最終銷售的成長是最大的槓桿，但我知道這也是削減部分利潤的另一種方式。

Yes. Well, I mean, this is a really critical initiative on the cost reduction for our bipolar plates, which we're looking at a potentially 70% cost reduction. This is pretty significant.

是的。嗯，我的意思是，這對於降低我們的雙極板成本來說是一個非常關鍵的舉措，我們希望將成本降低 70%。這是非常重要的。

In terms of the timing, we've had some challenges with one supplier of equipment that's delayed a little bit a couple of months. They did some testing and have completed some changes to that equipment and have since shipped those. So they've actually arrived here this week, some of the final pieces to that. So certainly, the front end, there are kind of five key steps in our bipolar plate production. All 5 steps have been reimagined with new processes and tack times, but importantly, with new equipment and a lot of automation.

在時間安排方面，我們遇到了一些挑戰，一家設備供應商的供貨稍微延遲了幾個月。他們做了一些測試，對該設備完成了一些改動，並已將其發貨。事實上，他們本週就已經抵達這裡，準備完成一些最後的準備工作。當然，在前端，我們的雙極板生產有五個關鍵步驟。所有 5 個步驟都經過重新設計，採用了新流程和新時間，但重要的是，採用了新設備和大量自動化。

And so we'll see a pretty significant increase, a 5x increase in the ability to produce bipolar plate capacity while also seeing that reduction in cost. That reduction in cost volume is not the key lever on that. It's very much the new processes and new materials. And so we're expecting that to likely really move into production in 2026. As you think about the timing, the additional equipment that's arrived recently here will be commissioned certainly by June. We'll look at some optimization in Q3 and into Q4 and start to see some real benefits from this in the 2026 timeframe.

因此，我們將看到相當顯著的成長，生產雙極板容量的能力將提高 5 倍，同時成本也會降低。成本量的降低並不是實現這一目標的關鍵。這很大程度上是新工藝和新材料。因此我們預計它可能會在 2026 年真正投入生產。從時間來看，最近運抵這裡的附加設備肯定會在六月投入使用。我們將在第三季和第四季研究一些優化，並在 2026 年的時間範圍內開始看到一些真正的好處。

Great thanks so much.

非常好，非常感謝。

Rupert Merer, National Bank Financial, Inc.

梅勒（Rupert Merer），國家銀行金融公司

Hi, good morning everyone. Thanks for taking the question. If I can start with the rationalization that you're seeing in the market. I'm wondering if you can talk about how that impacts your customers and supply chain. And maybe we can start with the 12-month backlog, if there's any potential for that to be impacted by further rationalization?

大家早安。感謝您回答這個問題。如果我可以從你在市場上看到的合理化開始。我想知道您是否可以談談這對您的客戶和供應鏈有何影響。也許我們可以從 12 個月的積壓開始，看看這是否有可能受到進一步合理化的影響？

Yes, Rupert, great question. Certainly, last year, we saw some drop out of the order book with rationalization. We had a few customers last year that went insolvent filed for bankruptcy. As you kind of look at the order book that we have this year and the customers we have in that order book, they don't have the same risk profile from a liquidity perspective that those customers, some of those customers did last year. So we're not expecting to see that type of duplication.

是的，魯伯特，這個問題問得很好。當然，去年我們看到一些訂單隨著合理化而減少。去年我們有幾個客戶破產了，並且申請破產。當您查看我們今年的訂單簿和訂單簿中的客戶時，您會發現從流動性角度來看，他們的風險狀況與去年的一些客戶不同。所以我們不希望看到這種重複。

I do think when we look at the kind of industry rationalization, we have seen some suppliers showing a lot of concern, particularly those suppliers who have invested in production capacity expansion, they're now seeing very low utilization and some of them thinking about the long-term strategy and whether this should be core for them going forward.

我確實認為，當我們審視行業合理化時，我們看到一些供應商表現出很大的擔憂，特別是那些已經投資擴大生產能力的供應商，現在他們的利用率非常低，其中一些供應商正在考慮長期戰略以及這是否應該成為他們未來發展的核心。

But overall, a number of the suppliers we have been working with, we've revalidated their commitment and feel pretty strong about the key supplier list that we have right now, not just in the stack material set, but also in the key balance of plant components. I think tariffs will pose another challenge for us on the supply front, but I think we've done quite a bit of work on that front.

但總體而言，我們已經重新驗證了與我們合作的許多供應商的承諾，並且對我們目前擁有的關鍵供應商名單感到非常滿意，不僅在堆疊材料方面，而且在工廠組件的關鍵平衡方面。我認為關稅將在供應方面給我們帶來另一個挑戰，但我認為我們在這方面已經做了相當多的工作。

In terms of just the other aspect on industry rationalization, this, on the competitive side, does offer opportunity. And what we're seeing is that probably about 9, 10 companies in the space that went bankrupt last year. We obviously had another one filing for bankruptcy overall in 2025 already. That's not good for the industry. It's not good for overall landscape. But of course, it does mean there are a few players that we were competing with before that really had very de minimis market share, and we're putting out very low prices to try and grab market share. We've seen some of those players fall off in 2024.

就行業合理化的另一個方面而言，這在競爭方面確實提供了機會。我們看到的是，去年該領域大約有 9 到 10 家公司破產。顯然，2025 年已經有一家公司申請破產了。這對該行業來說不是好事。這對於整體景觀來說並不好。但當然，這確實意味著我們之前競爭的少數公司確實擁有非常小的市場份額，而我們則以非常低的價格試圖搶佔市場份額。我們已經看到一些球員在 2024 年退出。

We actually kind of look at a five-year outlook on what does the competitive landscape look like 5 years from now. And with the investments we're planning, with the position we have currently, we feel very strongly about our five-year outlook in terms of our competitive positioning.

我們實際上會以五年為一個展望，看看五年後的競爭格局是什麼樣的。透過我們計劃的投資以及我們目前的地位，我們對我們的競爭定位的五年前景非常有信心。

Great, so yeah, thanks for calling. Great. And a quick follow-up on that. Does that open up any M&A opportunities or any -- those competitors that are falling off that maybe have some interesting technology opportunities for you?

太好了，謝謝您的來電。偉大的。並對此進行快速跟進。這是否會為您帶來任何併購機會，或者那些正在下滑的競爭對手可能會為您提供一些有趣的技術機會？

Yes. In the cases of some companies that have filed for bankruptcy or insolvency, we didn't see anything there that we found that was attractive or additive to our business. One of the things we are loath to do is make an investment that would increase our cash burn. And so certainly, as we look at M&A opportunities in a market that's going through rationalization and we haven't seen a lot of consolidation, but I expect to see some happening. One of the highest criteria for us to assess any opportunity is whether it's a cash flow positive contributing as opposed to cash burning.

是的。在一些申請破產或無力償債的公司中，我們沒有發現任何對我們的業務有吸引力或附加價值的東西。我們不願意做的事情之一就是進行會增加現金消耗的投資。因此，當我們在一個正在經歷合理化的市場中尋找併購機會時，我們還沒有看到很多的整合，但我預計會看到一些整合的發生。我們評估任何機會的最高標準之一是看它是否能為現金流帶來積極貢獻而不是燒錢。

Oh great, I'll leave it there. Thank you.

噢，太好了，我就把它留在那裡了。謝謝。

Yeah, thanks, Rupert.

是的，謝謝，魯伯特。

Martin Malloy, Johnson Rice.

馬丁·馬洛伊、約翰遜·賴斯。

Good morning. Thank you for taking my question. Just a bigger picture question. I would love to get your thoughts as you look out on availability of hydrogen for your customers, and how that might change going forward? Particularly interested in your thoughts about gray and blue hydrogen potentially becoming more available. There are some larger projects in that area. If you could just maybe offer your thoughts on that and how you see that developing in the timetable.

早安.感謝您回答我的問題。這只是一個更大的問題。我很想聽聽您對於向客戶提供氫氣的想法，以及未來氫氣供應可能如何變化？我特別感興趣的是您對灰色和藍色氫可能變得更加可用的想法。該地區有一些較大的項目。如果您能就此提出您的想法以及您認為該問題在時間表上將如何發展。

Yes, Martin, thanks for the question. We actually have spent quite a bit of time in the last 60 days on some European customer trips and industry events, and then at the Fuel Cell & Hydrogen Expo in Tokyo recently as well, and have the opportunity to meet with a lot of partners and customers and industry players and exchange thoughts on what's happening in the industry in 2024, what's happening in 2025, what are the key trends?

是的，馬丁，謝謝你的提問。事實上，在過去的 60 天裡，我們花了相當多的時間參加一些歐洲客戶旅行和行業活動，最近還參加了東京的燃料電池和氫能博覽會，有機會與許多合作夥伴、客戶和行業參與者會面，就 2024 年行業動態、2025 年動態以及主要趨勢等交換意見。

And one of the big topics of discussion, of course, Martin, is the availability of low-cost low carbon hydrogen. But as you point out, there's an increasing perspective, including in some markets where we saw really reluctance on looking at what I would characterize as blue and gray hydrogen market opportunities as well.

當然，馬丁，討論的一大議題就是低成本低碳氫化合物的可用性。但正如你所指出的，有一種觀點越來越多，包括在某些市場，我們看到人們真的不願意關注我所說的藍色和灰色氫市場機會。

So I do think, as you think about the Europe -- the US context right now with the new leadership there, there's far more support, I would say, for blue hydrogen than we've seen probably a few years ago. And to us, particularly between now and 2030, 2035 time frame, the color for hydrogen is not too critical for us. Of course, we'd like to see lower emissions. But what is important to us is getting deployment of vehicles and stationary power applications with low-cost hydrogen and seeing over the longer term, a transition to much lower forms of hydrogen in terms of carbon intensity.

因此我確實認為，當你考慮歐洲——美國目前的情況和那裡的新領導層時，我想說，對藍氫的支持比幾年前要多得多。對我們來說，特別是從現在到 2030 年、2035 年的時間範圍內，氫的顏色對我們來說並不太重要。當然，我們希望看到更低的排放量。但對我們來說重要的是使用低成本氫氣部署車輛和固定電力應用，並從長遠來看，過渡到碳強度較低的氫氣形式。

I do think the next two or three years will be important on how the hydrogen, the Clean Hydrogen Production Tax Credit plays out in the US marketplace. But we're seeing and just had some discussions with a key industry participant yesterday on the dynamics in that market. And there's certainly development going on, that is associated with blue hydrogen opportunities. And I think there's some progress being made on CCUS and SAF and certainly some applications where you could see some offtake.

我確實認為未來兩三年對於氫氣、清潔氫氣生產稅收抵免在美國市場的發揮至關重要。但我們昨天剛與一位關鍵的行業參與者就該市場的動態進行了一些討論。目前確實正在進行開發，這與藍氫機會有關。我認為 CCUS 和 SAF 方面取得了一些進展，當然還有一些應用可以看到其應用範圍。

So I would say kind of mixed report overall. Policies aren't as strong as we'd like to see. The financing environment is challenged when policy is uncertain. But we are seeing more opportunities on the gray and blue hydrogen side. And in terms of green hydrogen coming online, I do think that the revised forecast put out by the Hydrogen Council in the late fall are kind of forecast that we think are a credible forecast for 2030 and 2035.

因此，我認為總體而言，這是一個好壞參半的報告。政策並不像我們希望看到的那麼強大。當政策不確定時，融資環境就會面臨挑戰。但我們在灰氫和藍氫方面看到了更多機會。就綠氫能的上線而言，我確實認為，氫能委員會在秋末發布的修訂預測對於 2030 年和 2035 年來說是可信的。

Great, I appreciate your thoughts. Thank you.

太好了，我很欣賞你的想法。謝謝。

Yeah, thank you.

是的，謝謝。

Craig Irwin, ROTH Capital Partners.

克雷格歐文（Craig Irwin），羅仕證券資本合夥公司（ROTH Capital Partners）。

Good morning and congratulations on the strong bookings, Randy. It's nice to see the progress there. So one thing I was hoping you might be able to do is kind of bridge the disclosures around shipments in '25 versus '24. So Today, you said '24 had 660 engines shipped representing 56 megawatts, and that was up 30% over '23. Last year, you said 540 modules and 74 megawatts.

早安，蘭迪，恭喜你獲得如此高的預訂量。我很高興看到那裡取得的進展。因此，我希望您能夠做的一件事就是彌合 25 年和 24 年出貨量的揭露差距。所以今天，您說 24 年共出貨了 660 台發動機，代表了 56 兆瓦，比 23 年增長了 30%。去年你說的是540個模組、74兆瓦。

Obviously, the module definition is a little bit broader. Can you maybe close the gap and help us understand that if we use the wider definition, what the megawatts shipped could have been for '24. Is this still similar to a 30% growth rate? Or is there something else here that maybe you're deemphasizing to pursue these large orders you're booking?

顯然，模組定義要更廣泛一些。您能否縮小差距並幫助我們理解，如果我們使用更廣泛的定義，24 年的出貨量可能會是多少兆瓦。這還類似30%的成長率嗎？或者這裡是否存在其他您可能不再重視的事情，而去追求您正在預訂的這些大訂單？

Yes. So Craig, thanks for the question. A couple of things. First of all, we're providing two metrics because they're both critically important. So one is the engine unit volumes. And certainly, when we look at our revenue forecast internally, for example, at 2028, 2030, et cetera, the revenue lines are important. But to me, I'm always looking at the engine unit volumes line to see how that is going to impact supply chain and cost reduction opportunities, et cetera.

是的。所以 Craig，謝謝你的提問。有幾件事。首先，我們提供兩個指標，因為它們都至關重要。一個是引擎單元的體積。當然，當我們內部查看收入預測時，例如 2028 年、2030 年等，收入線很重要。但對我來說，我總是關注引擎機組產量線，看看這將如何影響供應鏈和成本削減機會等等。

What you do see in terms of the difference between the number of engines that we ship versus the megawatts is which engines we're shipping. So we have 70-kilowatt engines, which typically are being shipped for the European bus market for 12-meter buses. We have 100-kilowatt engines that are typically being shipped to the US bus market, plus the European 18-meter bus market. And then you have 200-kilowatt engines that we're shipping for a variety of applications, originally designed for marine, but we've been able to use the container package solution quite elegantly for some other market applications, including for rail and for stationary power market applications as well. So that's typically what's driving the difference.

從我們運送的引擎數量與兆瓦數之間的差異來看，您確實看到了我們運送的是哪種引擎。因此，我們有 70 千瓦的發動機，通常運往歐洲公車市場的 12 公尺公車。我們有 100 千瓦的發動機，通常運往美國公車市場以及歐洲 18 公尺公車市場。然後，我們將為各種應用運送 200 千瓦的發動機，這些發動機最初設計用於船舶，但我們已經能夠非常優雅地將貨櫃包裝解決方案用於其他一些市場應用，包括鐵路和固定電力市場應用。所以這通常就是造成差異的原因。

I think what you'll see this year is we're going to have quite a few 200-kilowatt engine shipping in 2025, given the rail order we have from CPKC. So the total megawatts relative to the number of units will be disproportionately higher, I would say, in 2025 based on that driver. They're both critical numbers because as you scale up the megawatts, certainly, that's improving our leverage on the MEAs and bipolar plates and stacks overall. And then as you scale up the number of unit, volume units on modules, that's really helping on components that go into our engines as well.

我認為，考慮到我們從 CPKC 獲得的鐵路訂單，我們今年將會看到在 2025 年有相當多的 200 千瓦引擎出貨。所以我想說，基於這個驅動因素，到 2025 年，相對於發電單位數量而言，總兆瓦數將會不成比例地高。它們都是至關重要的數字，因為隨著兆瓦數的增加，這肯定會提高我們對 MEA、雙極板和整個堆疊的槓桿作用。然後，隨著您擴大模組上的單元數量、體積單元數量，這對進入我們引擎的組件也確實有幫助。

Understood. Understood. Then as I look at the forecast out there for adjusted EBITDA for this year, it seems you're positioned for some fairly dramatic improvement over the last couple of years. Your restructuring activities and then the progress you've made on gross margins. But the point of uncertainty that most of us are looking at right now is not how effectively you budget your frictional costs right? You've done a good job there, is gross margins.

明白了。明白了。然後，當我查看今年調整後的 EBITDA 預測時，似乎你們在過去幾年將實現相當顯著的改善。您的重組活動以及您在毛利率方面的進展。但是，我們大多數人現在關注的不確定點不是您如何有效地預算摩擦成本，對嗎？您在這方面做得很好，就是毛利率。

So maybe can you unpack the puts and takes as far as the gross margin outlook for this year? Is it feasible for us to see positive gross margins before the end of the year? Is that really an operating priority right now, given that you are serving several customers at the early stage of a multiyear ramp.

那麼，您能否分析今年毛利率前景的利弊？我們有可能在年底前看到正的毛利率嗎？鑑於你們正在為處於多年期成長初期的多個客戶提供服務，這真的是目前的營運重點嗎？

Yes. So a great question and good observation. Before I talk about margins and Kate can supplement as well. Just to comment on the cash operating costs, I appreciate the commentary that we've made some progress there. We're still looking, though, at opportunities for additional cost reduction, particularly, we're tracking the market adoption indicators very closely. And if we see changes there that we think require changes in our cost structure, we'll take action as well.

是的。這是一個很好的問題，並且觀察得很好。在我談論利潤之前，凱特也可以補充一下。只是為了評論現金營運成本，我很欣賞我們在那裡取得一些進展的評論。不過，我們仍在尋找進一步降低成本的機會，特別是我們正在密切追蹤市場採用指標。如果我們發現變化，認為需要改變我們的成本結構，我們也會採取行動。

When we look at gross margin, and I want to talk about contribution margin first. A couple of key really important levers there are pricing and then our total variable costs. And we have spent quite a bit of time assessing both pricing and total variable costs. And I think we have strategies on how to improve, in some cases or hold the line, in some cases, on the pricing side.

當我們看毛利率時，我想先談談貢獻利潤率。其中真正重要的幾個關鍵槓桿是定價和總變動成本。我們花了相當多的時間來評估定價和總變動成本。我認為，在定價方面，我們有改進的策略，在某些情況下，或維持原有的策略。

And then importantly, reducing our total variable costs on existing modules that we're shipping in 2025 and '26, et cetera. We have 11 key initiatives underway here that will improve contribution margins in 2025 and into 2026. So I do think we're going to see a nice movement on contribution margins, and that will drop down to gross margins as well.

然後重要的是，降低我們在 2025 年和 2026 年等交付的現有模組的總變動成本。目前我們正在實施 11 項關鍵舉措，旨在提高 2025 年和 2026 年的貢獻利潤率。因此我確實認為我們將看到貢獻利潤率的良好變動，並且毛利率也會下降。

I did want to highlight, though, on the gross margin front, the fixed production overhead costs we have there's fairly limited levers to adjust that cost structure at this stage. We consolidated -- did some rooftop consolidation with some of our European facilities in 2025. That will show up a little bit in our gross margin expansion in 2020 -- sorry, in 2024 that will show up in 2025. But we now are going to need volume to help see the move from contribution margin to gross margin expansion. And that is going to take candidly, a couple of years before you really see some acceleration there.

不過，我確實想強調的是，在毛利率方面，我們固定的生產間接成本在現階段調整成本結構的手段相當有限。我們在 2025 年對一些歐洲設施進行了合併——一些屋頂合併。這將在我們 2020 年的毛利率擴張中有所體現——抱歉，是在 2024 年，將在 2025 年體現出來。但我們現在需要透過銷量來實現從貢獻利潤率到毛利率的擴張。坦白說，這還需要幾年時間才能真正看到加速。

So the levers are mostly at the contribution margin level. And there's a high -- you asked whether this is a priority. I can tell you, it's probably the highest corporate priority is that contribution gross margin, those lines.

因此，槓桿主要作用於貢獻毛利水準。還有一點——你問這是否是優先事項。我可以告訴你，企業最優先考慮的可能是貢獻毛利率，就是這些。

Kate, anything you want to add?

凱特，您還有什麼要補充嗎？

I think the only thing I would add is, I think Randy walked through that beautifully. I think the only thing I would point out is in terms of the trajectory and the expectation on gross margin for 2025. We clearly do not provide guidance for gross margin, but I would expect due to all the things that Randy had mentioned that we would see a step-wise improvement on gross margin on the year kind of looking at the trajectory from '23 to '24 and then into 2025. So again, I don't expect us to be positive gross margin on the year, but certainly a lot more positive than we were in 2024.

我想補充的唯一一點是，我認為蘭迪很好地詮釋了這一點。我認為我唯一要指出的是關於2025年的發展軌跡和毛利率的預期。我們顯然沒有提供毛利率的指導，但我預計，由於蘭迪提到的所有事情，我們會看到毛利率在今年逐步提高，就像從23年到2024年以及2025年的軌跡一樣。因此，我再次預計我們今年的毛利率不會為正，但肯定會比 2024 年高得多。

Understood. Last question, if I can squeeze another one in. You guys have been disciplined around CapEx. The suspension of your investments into the gigafactory everybody understands that in this environment. Can you maybe talk about what priorities you have in this $15 million to $25 million CapEx guide for the year? And that $10 million delta in there. Are there individual projects? Or is this maybe just a contingency for upgrades or repairs in existing facilities?

明白了。最後一個問題，我是否可以再擠出時間問一個。你們在資本支出方面一直很嚴格。在這種環境下，每個人都明白暫停對超級工廠的投資。您能否談談您在今年 1500 萬至 2500 萬美元的資本支出指南中的優先事項是什麼？其中有 1000 萬美元的差額。有單獨的項目嗎？或者這可能只是對現有設施升級或修復的緊急措施？

Yes. I'll start and then Kate can supplement, Craig, and it's a good question. So certainly, as we look at 2025 CapEx, one of the key contributions to the planned spend this year is the completion with Project Forge. And that's a program we had budgeted about three years ago, about $18 million in total. And so there's a component that will land this year as well as we complete that project.

是的。我先開始，然後凱特可以補充，克雷格，這是一個很好的問題。因此，當我們展望 2025 年的資本支出時，今年計畫支出的主要貢獻之一就是 Forge 專案的完成。這是我們大約三年前預算的項目，總額約 1800 萬美元。因此，當我們完成該項目時，有一個組件將在今年落地。

Beyond that, we're looking at fairly modest CapEx spend in year. And we typically have kind of between $5 million and $8 million a year just in, I'll call it, maintenance CapEx for our facilities and testing infrastructure and then some modest investments in additional testing improvements, I would say.

除此之外，我們預計今年的資本支出將相當適中。我們通常每年的支出大約在 500 萬到 800 萬美元之間，我稱之為設施和測試基礎設施的維護資本支出，然後我會說對額外的測試改進進行一些適度的投資。

Kate, anything you want to add there?

凱特，您還有什麼要補充嗎？

No. All good.

不。一切都很好。

Well, thanks again for taking my questions. Congratulations on the bookings.

好吧，再次感謝您回答我的問題。恭喜您預訂成功。

Thanks, Craig.

謝謝，克雷格。

Jeffrey Osborne, TD Cowen.

傑弗裡·奧斯本（Jeffrey Osborne），TD Cowen。

Hey, good morning, Randy. Randy, just two questions on my side. One, a quick one on the orders in Q4. Were any of those safe harbor related as it relates to cash timing or delivery timing? I assume not given the comments about second half weighted.

嘿，早上好，蘭迪。蘭迪，我只有兩個問題。第一，快速問一下第四季的訂單。這些安全港是否與現金時間或交貨時間有關？我認為沒有給出關於下半部分加權的評論。

So Jeff, welcome back, first of all. And I apologize, I don't think we heard the question clearly.

首先歡迎傑夫回來。而且我很抱歉，我認為我們沒有聽清楚這個問題。

Yes, I was asking about -- thanks for the welcome back. But I was asking about any orders in Q4, were those related to safe harboring activity for the 2024 investment tax credit?

是的，我問的是——感謝您的回來。但我問的是第四季的任何訂單，這些訂單是否與 2024 年投資稅收抵免的安全港活動有關？

Yeah, no, none.

是啊，沒有，沒有。

That's what I assume. And then just as you look at the 40% of the backlog as it relates to the US or North America, I think for the US portion of that, are you going through sort of account by account on both the bus and the rail side to ascertain the potential delays and timing of the hydrogen build-out associated with those bus depots or other locations? Or are these folks producing on-site? Just with the third-party delays, does that pose any risk to the timing of deliveries of the finished bus module?

我也是這麼認為的。然後，當您看到與美國或北美相關的 40% 積壓訂單時，我認為對於美國部分，您是否會逐一檢查公車和鐵路方面的情況，以確定與這些公車站或其他地點相關的氫氣建設的潛在延誤和時間？或者這些人是在現場生產嗎？只是第三方的延遲，是否會對成品公車模組的交付時間造成風險？

Yes. So first of all, on the rail side, the two key deliveries we have on the rail side are the North American locomotive market with CPKC. They've already installed two hydrogen refueling stations, one in Edmonton and one in Calgary. They also have electrolyzer hydrogen production. So they have in-house hydrogen production capacity.

是的。首先，在鐵路方面，我們在鐵路方面的兩個主要交付是與 CPKC 合作的北美機車市場。他們已經安裝了兩座加氫站，一座在埃德蒙頓，一座在卡加利。他們還有電解器生產氫氣。所以他們有內部氫氣生產能力。

So there's no linkage with that order to availability of hydrogen. The second one in the rail market is the Stadler order, for a commuter rail application in the San Bernardino area, and that one already has hydrogen availability secured. So no issues there.

因此，該命令與氫氣的供應沒有關聯。鐵路市場中的第二個訂單是 Stadler 訂單，用於聖貝納迪諾地區的通勤鐵路，並且該訂單已經確保了氫氣供應。因此那裡沒有問題。

On the bus side, a number of bus transit operators that we've been selling to through our vehicle OEM, typically New Flyer, that they've been selling their buses to with our engines. Already have on-site in some cases, hydrogen fueling stations. So there's no infrastructure requirements in terms of dispensing. And they're procuring and have been procuring hydrogen for some time. A couple of them have actually on-site hydrogen production.

在公車方面，我們透過車輛原始設備製造商向許多公車運輸業者（通常是 New Flyer）銷售車輛，他們向這些業者銷售搭載我們引擎的公車。在某些情況下，現場已經設有加氫站。因此，在分配方面沒有基礎設施要求。他們正在採購氫氣，並且已經採購氫氣有一段時間了。其中一些實際上已經實現現場氫氣生產。

So if you look at AC Transit in Oakland, if you look at OCTA in Orange County and SunLine in Palm Desert area, there's a few of them that have very locked down hydrogen strategies as well. Of course, there's a number of new transit operators, by the way, Foothill Transit in the LA area already has their hydrogen strategy as well. So I don't see a lot of challenge with the deliveries in 2025 on the bus side in the US market.

所以如果你看看奧克蘭的 AC Transit，如果你看看奧蘭治縣的 OCTA 和棕櫚沙漠地區的 SunLine，你會發現他們中的一些人也擁有非常明確的氫氣戰略。當然，還有許多新的交通運輸業者，順便說一句，洛杉磯地區的 Foothill Transit 也已經制定了氫能策略。因此，我認為 2025 年美國市場客車交付不會面臨太大挑戰。

And what we have seen, of course, from time to time, there are delays where the transit operators aren't ready to take the buses and that causes the bus OEM to push back on our delivery schedule. We're not foreseeing that this year. But of course, that's always a possibility.

當然，我們時常看到，由於公車業者尚未準備好營運公車，因此出現延誤，這導致公車原始設備製造商推遲我們的交貨時間表。我們今年沒有預見到這種情況。但當然，這總是有可能的。

Great to hear. That's all I have.

很高興聽到這個消息。這就是我的所有了。

Thank you. Sure, thank you.

謝謝。當然，謝謝。

Yeah.

是的。

This concludes the question-and-answer session. I would like to turn the conference back over to Randy MacEwen for any closing remarks. Please go ahead.

問答環節到此結束。我想將會議交還給蘭迪·麥克尤恩 (Randy MacEwen)，請他作最後發言。請繼續。

Thanks, Toshiya, and thank you, everyone, for joining us today. Kate, Sumit and I look forward to speaking with you next quarter. Thanks again.

謝謝 Toshiya，也謝謝大家今天的參與。凱特、薩米特和我期待下個季度與您交談。再次感謝。

This brings to a close today's conference call. You may disconnect your lines. Thank you for participating and have a pleasant day.

今天的電話會議到此結束。您可以斷開您的線路。感謝您的參與並祝您有愉快的一天。