Ballard Power Systems Inc (BLDP) 2025 Q2 法說會逐字稿

Thank you for standing by. This is the conference operator. Welcome to the Ballard Power Systems Second Quarter 2025 Results Conference Call. (Operator Instructions) The conference is being recorded. [Operator Instructions]

感謝您的支持。我是會議主持人。歡迎參加 Ballard Power Systems 2025 年第二季業績電話會議。（操作員指示）會議正在錄音。[操作員說明]

I would now like to turn the conference over to Sumit Kundu, Investor Relations. Please go ahead.

現在我想將會議交給投資者關係部的 Sumit Kundu。請繼續。

Thank you, operator, and good morning. Welcome to Ballard's Second Quarter Financial and Operating Results Conference Call. Joining me today is Marty Neese, Ballard's new President and Chief Executive Officer; and Jay Murray, our Vice President of Finance and Corporate Controller, who is stepping in for Kate Igbalode this quarter. We will be making forward-looking statements that are based on management's current expectations, beliefs and assumptions concerning future events. Actual results could be materially different. Please refer to our most recent annual information form and other public filings for our complete disclaimer and related information.

謝謝接線員，早安。歡迎參加巴拉德第二季財務與經營業績電話會議。今天與我一起出席的還有 Ballard 新任總裁兼執行長 Marty Neese，以及我們的財務副總裁兼公司財務總監 Jay Murray，他將在本季接替 Kate Igbalode 的職務。我們將根據管理層對未來事件的當前預期、信念和假設做出前瞻性陳述。實際結果可能會有重大差異。請參閱我們最新的年度資訊表和其他公開文件，以了解我們的完整免責聲明和相關資訊。

I'll now turn the call over to Marty.

我現在將電話轉給馬蒂。

Thanks, Sumit. Good morning, everyone. As this is my first earnings call as CEO of Ballard, I'd like to begin by sharing some of my background and the principles I bring to Ballard. I'll apologize in advance for talking a bit about myself, but I believe context is important, both for understanding the journey that brought me here and the perspective I bring to our path forward. As the saying goes, the sum of your past moments is what led you to today. My journey includes leadership roles in both Fortune 100 companies like Flex and innovation-driven start-ups like Verdagy.

謝謝，Sumit。大家早安。這是我作為 Ballard 執行長的第一次財報電話會議，我想先分享我的一些背景以及我為 Ballard 帶來的原則。我先為談論一些關於我自己的事情道歉，但我相信背景很重要，這既是為了理解我來到這裡的旅程，也是為了理解我為我們前進的道路帶來的觀點。正如俗話所說，過去的點滴成就了今天的你。我的職業生涯包括在 Flex 等財富 100 強公司和 Verdagy 等創新驅動型新創公司擔任領導職務。

I've led product and service businesses, publicly traded companies and venture-backed teams. Each experience has reinforced my belief that there are always better ways to do things and that success lies in execution, innovation and delivering meaningful value to customers. I spent the first 15 years of my career in the electronic manufacturing services or the EMS industry. That experience shaped my understanding of the value of disciplined execution and cost control, delivering products with precision, frugality and extraordinary service.

我曾領導產品和服務企業、上市公司和創投支援的團隊。每一次經驗都強化了我的信念：總有更好的方法可以做事，成功在於執行、創新、提供客戶有意義的價值。我職業生涯的前 15 年是在電子製造服務或 EMS 行業度過的。那次經驗讓我深刻了解嚴格執行和成本控制的價值，以及以精準、節儉和卓越的服務提供產品的價值。

In EMS, success is earned through reliability, working capital efficiency and constant operational rigor. The past 18 years of my career have been focused on clean tech, serving as COO at SunPower, a vertically integrated public solar company and most recently as CEO of the hydrogen electrolyzer startup. These roles were centered on innovation-led value creation. First, to reach grid parity in solar and then to unlock fossil parity for green hydrogen. The importance of technical excellence, product innovation, urgency and establishing bankability was constant throughout.

在 EMS 中，成功是透過可靠性、營運資金效率和持續的營運嚴謹性獲得的。我職業生涯的過去 18 年一直專注於清潔技術，曾擔任垂直整合的公共太陽能公司 SunPower 的首席營運官，最近擔任氫電解器新創公司的執行長。這些角色以創新主導的價值創造為中心。首先，實現太陽能與電網的平價，然後實現綠色氫能與化石能源的平價。技術卓越、產品創新、緊迫性和建立融資能力的重要性始終如一。

In 2015, I joined Ballard's Board. Now as CEO, I'm both grateful and excited to be leading this company. Ballard has over 45 years of history pioneering and educating the world on the promise of hydrogen fuel cells. In recent years, we've transitioned from being primarily a technology development and solutions company to a product company with growing commercial traction in bus, rail, marine, stationary power and material handling.

2015 年，我加入了 Ballard 董事會。現在作為首席執行官，我既感激又興奮能夠領導這家公司。巴拉德擁有超過 45 年的歷史，致力於開拓並向世界宣傳氫燃料電池的前景。近年來，我們從一家主要提供技術開發和解決方案的公司轉型為一家產品公司，在公車、鐵路、船舶、固定電源和物料搬運領域的商業吸引力日益增強。

That transition hasn't been easy and it hasn't been linear. Tailwinds in policy and market enthusiasm have shifted in recent years. As we face new headwinds, uncertainty, changing regulations, tariffs and delayed adoption in certain sectors, we must evolve again. That change starts with me. We are charting a course toward becoming a sustainable cash flow positive business by the end of 2027.

這種轉變並不容易，而且並不是直線性的。近年來，政策和市場熱情的順風已經轉變。當我們面臨新的阻力、不確定性、不斷變化的法規、關稅以及某些領域的採用延遲時，我們必須再次進化。改變從我開始。我們正在規劃 2027 年底成為一家可持續現金流為正的企業。

To do that, we are aligning around what I believe are universal truths for any successful business, including Ballard. The value of execution and cost. Execution is fundamental. It starts with understanding, simplifying and reducing our costs across our operations, our products and our processes and coupling cost improvements with disciplined capital management.

為了實現這一目標，我們圍繞著我認為對任何成功企業（包括巴拉德企業）都適用的普遍真理進行協調。執行的價值和成本。執行是根本。首先要了解、簡化和降低我們的營運、產品和流程的成本，並將成本改善與嚴格的資本管理結合。

Our recent investments in automated manufacturing of MEAs and bipolar plates gives us a cost reduction advantage we intend to fully leverage. The value of service. Commercial success is earned from customer success, winning on total cost of ownership and delivering real measurable customer value is how we win. Just as important, our customers need to be willing to understand and pay for this delivered value.

我們最近在 MEA 和雙極板自動化製造方面的投資為我們帶來了降低成本的優勢，我們打算充分利用這一優勢。服務的價值。商業成功源自於客戶成功，贏得整體擁有成本並提供真正可衡量的客戶價值是我們取勝之道。同樣重要的是，我們的客戶需要願意理解並為這種交付價值付費。

That's how we build a self-sustaining business. The value of innovation. Innovation is not just about technology. It's about products, services, business models and partnerships from stack improvements to value-added balance of plant and from product simplification to customer-centric design. We are relentlessly focused on developing better, safer, higher-value solutions.

這就是我們建立自給自足的企業的方式。創新的價值。創新不僅涉及技術。它涉及產品、服務、商業模式和合作夥伴關係，從堆疊改進到工廠的增值平衡，從產品簡化到以客戶為中心的設計。我們堅持不懈地致力於開發更好、更安全、更高價值的解決方案。

As the saying goes, a designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. That's the mindset we bring to product development. The customer feedback we are receiving is very encouraging and bodes well for the future of our new products in development. We also see innovation opportunities beyond the product across our business model, supply chain and go-to-market approach. The value of deep experience and brand. Ballard has delivered over 300 million kilometers of fuel cell-powered transportation, more than any competitor by far.

俗話說，設計師知道自己已經達到完美，不是因為沒有什麼可以添加，而是因為沒有任何東西可以刪除。這就是我們對待產品開發的心態。我們收到的客戶回饋非常令人鼓舞，預示著我們正在開發的新產品的未來前景良好。我們也看到了產品以外的商業模式、供應鏈和市場進入方式的創新機會。深厚的經驗和品牌的價值。巴拉德已交付了超過 3 億公里的燃料電池驅動交通工具，遠遠超過任何競爭對手。

We have the most durable products, the best delivered TCO or total cost of ownership and a globally respected brand. Our reputation and technical depth are tremendous assets that we will continue to build upon. The path forward. We are taking a hard look at markets that are not moving as fast as expected. For example, we are adjusting our investments in the heavy-duty truck sector.

我們擁有最耐用的產品、最佳的 TCO 或總體擁有成本以及全球知名的品牌。我們的聲譽和技術深度是巨大的資產，我們將繼續在此基礎上進一步發展。前進的道路。我們正在密切關注那些發展速度不如預期的市場。例如，我們正在調整對重卡領域的投資。

These are hard choices, but they are necessary to maintain focus and discipline. Our recent realignment and headcount reduction efforts structurally lower our cost base and allow us to redirect resources toward near-term opportunities where we see clear product market fit and margin improvement potential.

這些都是艱難的選擇，但它們對於保持專注和紀律是必要的。我們最近的調整和裁員努力從結構上降低了我們的成本基礎，並使我們能夠將資源重新轉向短期機會，在這些機會中，我們看到了明顯的產品市場契合度和利潤率提高的潛力。

We are now supplementing our industry-leading innovation culture with a focus on continuous improvement, operational rigor, capital discipline and customer value delivery. Ballard's foundation is strong. We have no debt, no immediate capital needs and an unmatched global team.

我們現在正在補充我們行業領先的創新文化，重點關注持續改進、營運嚴謹性、資本紀律和客戶價值交付。巴拉德的基礎很牢固。我們沒有債務，沒有即時資本需求，並且擁有無與倫比的全球團隊。

This is why I joined and why I'm optimistic about the future we're building together. We'll provide more detail on financial implications of our restructuring on the Q3 call, and you can expect near-term updates on key strategic focus areas. We're also planning our next Ballard Capital Markets Day expected to take place in 2026, where we'll share more about our path forward.

這就是我加入的原因，也是我對我們共同建立的未來感到樂觀的原因。我們將在第三季電話會議上提供有關重組財務影響的更多詳細信息，並且您可以期待有關關鍵戰略重點領域的近期更新。我們也計劃於 2026 年舉辦下一屆 Ballard 資本市場日，屆時我們將分享更多有關我們未來發展方向的資訊。

Moving to our Q2 performance. We delivered a solid quarter, leading to an increase in revenue of 11% year-over-year, with growth, particularly in the rail vertical. Gross margin improved by 24 points, reflecting cost efficiencies driven by our 2024 restructuring activities and a net reduction in onerous contract provisions.

轉向我們的第二季業績。我們本季業績穩健，營收年增 11%，尤其是在鐵路垂直領域。毛利率提高了 24 個百分點，反映了我們 2024 年重組活動帶來的成本效率提高以及繁重合約條款的淨減少。

Despite soft order intake in Q2 of $8.3 million, we are progressing with key customers across our verticals. Notably, after the quarter, we secured one of the largest marine orders in our history with eCap and Samskip. Deliveries in the bus and rail segments remained on pace, and we are seeing renewed interest in material handling opportunities.

儘管第二季訂單量僅為 830 萬美元，但我們與各個垂直領域的關鍵客戶的合作仍在取得進展。值得注意的是，本季結束後，我們與 eCap 和 Samskip 簽訂了公司歷史上最大的海運訂單之一。公車和鐵路領域的交付量仍在穩步增長，我們看到了人們對物料搬運機會的新興趣。

We are also on schedule and progressing on Project Forge, our high-volume bipolar plate automated manufacturing initiative. This is a foundational element of our product cost reduction strategy. Before I hand the call over to Jay, I'll reiterate this. We believe deeply in the role of hydrogen and fuel cells to decarbonize key sectors of the global economy. While market adoption remains uneven, Ballard is taking steps needed to lead over the long term with discipline, clarity and resilience.

我們的大批量雙極板自動化製造計劃 Project Forge 也正在按計劃順利進行。這是我們產品成本降低策略的基礎要素。在我將電話交給傑伊之前，我要重申這一點。我們堅信氫能和燃料電池在全球經濟關鍵領域脫碳方面發揮重要作用。儘管市場採用情況仍不均衡，但巴拉德正在採取必要措施，以紀律、清晰度和韌性實現長期領導。

Jay, over to you.

傑伊，交給你了。

Thanks, Marty. As Marty mentioned, total revenue for Q2 was $17.8 million, up 11% year-over-year. The heavy-duty mobility market contributed $16.1 million, driven by bus and rail shipments. Gross margin improved to negative 8%, up 24 points compared to Q2 of last year. This improvement was due primarily to lower manufacturing overhead costs as a result of our September 2024 restructuring and by a net reduction in onerous contract provisions.

謝謝，馬蒂。正如 Marty 所提到的，第二季的總收入為 1,780 萬美元，年增 11%。受公車和鐵路運輸的推動，重型移動市場貢獻了 1,610 萬美元。毛利率改善至負8%，較去年第二季上升24個百分點。這項改善主要歸因於我們 2024 年 9 月重組導致的製造間接成本降低以及繁重合約條款的淨減少。

Total operating expenses were $31.7 million, down 12% year-over-year. However, excluding initial restructuring and related charges of [$5.9] million incurred in Q2 on our recent realignment and headcount reduction efforts, operating expenses decreased by 28% compared to Q2 of 2024. Cash operating costs declined in a similar manner to $22.7 million, a 27% year-over-year reduction.

總營運費用為 3,170 萬美元，年減 12%。但是，如果不包括我們最近的調整和裁員工作中在第二季度產生的初始重組和相關費用 [590 萬美元]，營運費用與 2024 年第二季相比下降了 28%。現金營運成本也下降至 2,270 萬美元，年減 27%。

Adjusted EBITDA was negative $30.6 million, a 13% improvement from negative $35.4 million last year, reflecting improved gross margin performance and lower operating costs, partially offset by an increase in restructuring expenses. Cash used by operating activities was $20.3 million, a 42% improvement versus Q2 of last year, reflecting lower cash operating losses combined with improved working capital.

調整後的 EBITDA 為負 3,060 萬美元，較去年的負 3,540 萬美元改善 13%，這反映了毛利率表現的提高和營運成本的降低，但重組費用的增加部分抵消了這一影響。經營活動所用現金為 2,030 萬美元，較去年第二季成長 42%，反映現金經營損失減少且營運資金增加。

We closed the quarter with $550 million in cash and cash equivalents, no bank debt and remain confident in our ability to fund operations and strategic initiatives without near-term financing. Finally, we expect full year capital expenditure and operating expenses, excluding restructuring charges, to come at the low end of our guidance ranges for 2025. Including restructuring charges,

本季結束時，我們擁有 5.5 億美元的現金和現金等價物，沒有銀行債務，我們仍然有信心在沒有短期融資的情況下為營運和策略計畫提供資金。最後，我們預計全年資本支出和營運支出（不包括重組費用）將達到我們 2025 年指導範圍的低端。包括重組費用，

restructuring to further reduce our operating cost structure and capital spend, we will update both our operating expense and capital spend guidance as part of Q3 reporting as appropriate. With that, I'll turn the call over to the operator for questions.

重組以進一步降低我們的營運成本結構和資本支出，我們將在第三季報告中適當更新我們的營運費用和資本支出指引。說完這些，我將把電話轉給接線生來回答問題。

Thank you. We will now begin the question-and-answer session. (Operator Instructions)

謝謝。我們現在開始問答環節。（操作員指示）

Rob Brown, Lake Street Capital Markets.

羅布布朗 (Rob Brown)，Lake Street Capital Markets。

Hi, good morning. Just on the markets that you see that are sort of seeing near-term activity, I think rail and marine in particular, you've talked about, but what are the kind of the near-term markets you're pursuing? And maybe how do you approach those markets now with sort of the different cost structure?

嗨，早安。就您所看到的近期活動市場而言，我認為特別是鐵路和海運，您已經談到了，但您所追求的近期市場是什麼樣的？那麼，您現在該如何利用不同的成本結構來進入這些市場呢？

Yes. So thanks for the question, Rob. In addition to the rail and marine market that you mentioned, we're seeing really good traction and a value proposition of significance in the bus market, both in North America and in Europe. And what really is the driver there is the total cost of ownership delivered for the asset owner operating a fleet or a bus. And hydrogen has a very strong role to play there and is winning specifically when you start seeing larger fleets where, let's say, battery electric buses are limited in their ability to scale up infrastructure and the cost of the additional infrastructure required for charging and other things in battery electric make those markets a little less attractive and make hydrogen a more favored solution as you go forward. So we're seeing that transition playing out in real time.

是的。謝謝你的提問，羅布。除了您提到的鐵路和海運市場之外，我們還看到北美和歐洲的客車市場表現出色，並且具有重要的價值主張。而真正的驅動因素是營運車隊或公車的資產所有者所承擔的總擁有成本。氫氣在其中發揮著非常重要的作用，特別是當你開始看到更大的車隊時，氫氣就會獲勝，比如說，電池電動公車在擴大基礎設施的能力方面受到限制，而充電和電池電動其他設備所需的額外基礎設施的成本使這些市場吸引力降低，並使氫氣成為未來更受歡迎的解決方案。因此，我們即時地看到這種轉變正在發生。

Okay. Great. And then could you give us some color on the marine order that you announced after the quarter end, sort of what's sort of driven that and some of the outcomes you're looking for there?

好的。偉大的。然後，您能否向我們介紹一下您在季度末宣布的海軍訂單，是什麼推動了這項訂單，以及您希望獲得哪些結果？

Yes. So that order, to my knowledge, is about a two-year sales cycle to get that order over the goal line. So this is not a product life that lends itself to like every three months, you do another one of these kinds of ships, if you will. So that was a couple of years in the making. And it's -- if I'm not mistaken, 6.3 megawatts in size, which is great. It's using our FCwave product that was developed considerably a while back, put it that way.

是的。據我所知，該訂單大約需要兩年的銷售週期才能超過目標線。因此，如果你願意的話，這並不是一種每三個月生產一次這種船的產品。所以這花了幾年的時間。如果我沒記錯的話，它的功率為 6.3 兆瓦，這很棒。可以這麼說，它使用了我們很久以前開發的 FCwave 產品。

And that value proposition starts looking like an interesting vertical over the long run because it's got the right kind of range requirements, the right kind of route requirements, the right kind of fueling infrastructure, ability to adapt to that kind of fueling infrastructure.

從長遠來看，這種價值主張開始看起來像一個有趣的垂直領域，因為它具有正確的範圍要求、正確的路線要求、正確的加油基礎設施以及適應這種加油基礎設施的能力。

And so it will be interesting to see how that market evolves as more and more people get familiar with how to do that kind of transition of a marine vehicle or vessel, if you will, and what that might mean to route optimization going forward with hydrogen infrastructure growing in the key ports around the geography in question.

因此，隨著越來越多的人熟悉如何進行海上交通工具或船舶的這種轉變，看看這個市場如何發展將會很有趣，以及這對路線優化意味著什麼，因為氫基礎設施在相關地區的主要港口不斷增長。

Okay, thank you. I'll turn it over.

好的，謝謝。我把它翻過來。

(Operator Instructions)

（操作員指示）

Jeffrey Osborne, TD Cowen.

傑弗裡·奧斯本 (Jeffrey Osborne)，TD Cowen。

So thank you, good morning. And just a couple of questions on my side. I was curious if we could just run through the OpEx cadence that you had in Q2. And then it sounds like there'll be more detail on Q3, but just trying to figure out what the new run rate will be. Is it similar to Q2? Or any details you could help articulate that? And then any restructuring charges that would flow through in Q3 that we should be modeling? Or was all of that incurred in Q2?

謝謝大家，早安。我這邊還有幾個問題。我很好奇我們是否可以簡單介紹一下您在第二季的營運支出節奏。然後聽起來好像會有關於第三季的更多細節，但只是想弄清楚新的運行率是多少。和Q2類似嗎？或者您能提供任何細節來幫助闡明這一點嗎？那麼，我們應該對第三季產生的任何重組費用進行建模嗎？或者所有這些都是在第二季度發生的？

Yes. So it was not all incurred in Q2. And Jay, do you want to provide a little bit more color from there?

是的。因此，並非所有費用都是在第二季產生的。傑伊，你想提供更多細節嗎？

Yes. We recently announced July restructuring. Most of the charges related to that will be incurred in Q2. We're not disclosing the amount now as we continue to work through the details of that. There was a CEO transition in there, and part of those costs are reflected in the Q2 restructuring numbers. I would say this recent restructuring in July is expected to reduce go-forward operating costs by another 30% with most of those realized in 2026. We'll see some benefit in the last half of the year, but not the full benefit.

是的。我們最近宣布了七月重組。與此相關的大部分費用將在第二季產生。目前我們不會透露具體金額，因為我們正在繼續研究細節。其中有一次執行長的變動，部分成本反映在第二季的重組數據。我想說，7 月的最新重組預計將使未來的營運成本再降低 30%，其中大部分將在 2026 年實現。我們將在下半年看到一些好處，但不是全部。

Got it. And then if I heard you right, you talked about realigning the business to be cash flow positive exiting ' 27 or it was unclear if it was exiting or for the full year of '27. But do you have like a framework on what you're aiming to achieve to get there? Is that sort of 15% to 20% gross margins and then the OpEx cuts that you're announcing now are aligned to match that and get you to sort of EBITDA cash flow neutral? Or just how do we think about like what the financial parameters are to make that statement?

知道了。如果我沒聽錯的話，您談到了重新調整業務，以便在 27 年底實現正現金流，或者目前還不清楚是 27 年底還是全年。但是，您是否有一個關於要實現的目標的框架？那是不是毛利率在 15% 到 20% 之間？您現在宣布的營運支出削減是否與此相符，並使 EBITDA 現金流達到中立？或者我們只是如何思考做出該聲明的財務參數是什麼？

Yes. So it is exiting 2027. It's not for the full year 2027. And yes, we have essentially a 10-quarter waterfall of how we'll get the gross margins expanded to the appropriate level and the cost reduced to the appropriate level. And we're refining that model as we progress through Q3. And just to go back a second, just a quick annotation. Jay mentioned the restructuring charges were in Q2. You meant some of the restructuring charges were in Q2. The bulk of the restructuring charges will be in Q3. So just making that quick edit on the fly.

是的。所以它將於 2027 年退出。這不是 2027 年全年的目標。是的，我們基本上有一個 10 個季度的瀑布計劃，用於說明如何將毛利率擴大到適當的水平，並將成本降低到適當的水平。隨著第三季的進展，我們正在完善該模型。讓我們回顧一下，做一個簡短的註釋。傑伊提到重組費用是在第二季產生的。您的意思是部分重組費用是在第二季發生的。大部分重組費用將在第三季發生。因此只需即時進行快速編輯即可。

[So the five] and change in Q2, it will be something meaningfully higher than that in Q3, but you're not quantifying that. Is that the right way to think about it?

[因此，第二季的五個]變化將比第三季明顯更高，但你沒有量化這一點。這是正確的思考方式嗎？

That's correct.

沒錯。

Got it. I think that's all I had. As it relates to the pipeline of orders that you're chasing for the second half of the year, you alluded to strength and following up on Rob Brown's question, rail and bus, et cetera. But I think you mentioned Marty, material handling. What are you seeing in that market?

知道了。我想這就是我所擁有的一切。由於這與您在下半年追逐的訂單管道有關，您提到了實力以及對 Rob Brown 的問題、鐵路和公車等的後續追蹤。但我認為你提到了 Marty，材料處理。您在那個市場看到了什麼？

Yes. We're seeing some green shoots in stack replacements. We're not actively doing battery box replacements or anything like that. That's not our core; however, we are seeing various integrators and OEMs talking to us about stack replacement as they start seeing the need for higher-performing stacks with greater durability and they're looking for ways to lower their total service costs of addressing that space. And we play extraordinarily well in that domain with the stack lifetimes that we've been able to achieve. So they're quite interested.

是的。我們在煙囪替換方面看到了一些新的進展。我們不會主動進行電池盒更換或類似的事情。這不是我們的核心；然而，我們看到各種整合商和原始設備製造商正在與我們討論堆疊更換，因為他們開始看到對具有更高耐用性的更高性能堆疊的需求，並且他們正在尋找降低解決該領域的總服務成本的方法。並且我們在該領域表現非常出色，並且我們已經能夠實現堆疊壽命。所以他們很有興趣。

Perfect. That's all I have. Thank you.

完美的。這就是我所擁有的一切。謝謝。

Mac Whale, Cormark Securities.

Mac Whale，Cormark 證券。

Hi, I just had a question on whether there are some concerns you may have that if you focus on the markets that are ready now, like you noted with the bus TCO looking attractive, will it sort of -- with the decline in your technology development necessarily allow you to be ready for when the other markets like truck start to see an improvement because that technology, I think, does need a steeper cost decline and probably a better performance increase. Can you just speak to how you're sort of future-proofing yourself on that front?

你好，我只是想問一下，如果您專注於現在已經準備好的市場，例如您提到的公車 TCO 看起來很有吸引力，那麼隨著技術開發的下降，您是否一定能為卡車等其他市場開始出現改善做好準備，因為我認為，這項技術確實需要更大幅度的成本下降，並且可能還需要更好的性能提升。您能否談談您在這方面如何做好未來的準備？

Yes. I would say that a couple of things. One is the core technology that continues to evolve and improve is the stack. And when you think about the fungibility of the stack across all the different applications, making meaningful progress on durability and lifetime and efficiency and all the key customer metrics that translates across all the verticals. So that march is going on now. Additionally, we're seeing markets like truck being more like 2030 and beyond. And so we've got plenty of time as you start thinking about market signals, if we were needing to adapt further, we could adapt from there.

是的。我想說幾件事。一是不斷發展和完善的核心技術是堆疊。當您考慮所有不同應用程式中堆疊的可互換性時，在耐用性、壽命和效率以及跨所有垂直領域的所有關鍵客戶指標方面都會取得有意義的進展。遊行現在仍在進行中。此外，我們看到卡車等市場更像 2030 年及以後。因此，當您開始考慮市場​​訊號時，我們有充足的時間，如果我們需要進一步適應，我們可以從那裡開始適應。

Lastly, I'd say that all of the markets are let's say, commercially sensitive and understanding the total cost of ownership explicitly end-to-end is the work product that we've got going on now that will serve us no matter what market we're entering now or in the future. And really, that's about getting the delivered value explicitly characterized so that we know exactly what the CapEx is, what the OpEx is and the lifetime of the asset we're trying to serve and making sure that we're developing a product and a service portfolio that addresses it appropriately.

最後，我想說，所有的市場都具有商業敏感性，明確地了解端到端的總體擁有成本是我們目前正在進行的工作成果，無論我們現在或將來進入哪個市場，它都將為我們服務。實際上，這是為了明確描述交付價值，以便我們確切地知道什麼是資本支出，什麼是營運支出，以及我們試圖服務的資產的壽命，並確保我們正在開發一個能夠適當解決這些問題的產品和服務組合。

Okay. So yes, it would be helpful next year, looking forward to that Capital Markets Day to dig in a lot of these issues --

好的。所以，是的，明年會很有幫助，期待資本市場日深入探討這些問題--

Absolutely.

絕對地。

Great. Thanks.

偉大的。謝謝。

[Craig Dettary], Raymond James.

[克雷格·德塔里]，雷蒙德·詹姆斯。

Hey, good morning. I think in the quarter though, there was a $2 million backlog adjustment being pulled out. Could we see more pieces of the business being exited? What are some of the margin profile of the backlog? And are there pieces of the business that you may view as suboptimal or unattractive?

嘿，早安。我認為本季有 200 萬美元的積壓調整被取消。我們是否可以看到更多業務被退出？積壓訂單的利潤如何？您是否認為業務中有些部分不夠理想或缺乏吸引力？

Yes. So in the case of that particular reversal, Jay, do you have the particulars on that particular ---

是的。那麼，傑伊，關於那個特定的逆轉，你有沒有具體細節？---

Not right now.

現在還不行。

Okay. So sorry, Fred, I'm not going to be able to get you the exact name of that particular reversal or what that market was. It's just too new for me at the moment. That said, we are establishing and improving our pricing disciplines and what opportunities meet a threshold and a hurdle rate and what opportunities do not. And when an opportunity does not meet a hurdle rate, that doesn't mean that we suspend work in that particular vertical or that customer account. It means we have to be more creative on the balance between a CapEx and an OpEx model and understanding what the customer is solving for. Are they solving for upfront costs? Are they solving for lifetime costs? And do we know the difference in how to price it accordingly.

好的。很抱歉，弗雷德，我無法告訴你那個特定逆轉的確切名稱或那個市場是什麼。目前它對我來說還太新了。也就是說，我們正在建立和改進我們的定價原則，以及哪些機會符合門檻和最低收益率，哪些機會不符合。當一個機會沒有達到最低收益率時，這並不意味著我們會暫停在該特定垂直領域或該客戶帳戶的工作。這意味著我們必須在資本支出和營運支出模式之間的平衡上更具創造力，並了解客戶正在解決的問題。他們是否解決了前期成本問題？他們是否解決了終身成本問題？我們是否知道如何相應地定價？

So I would just say that we've got more maturation to do in value pricing and making sure that the markets we're serving and the products we're delivering to those markets have a fit and they have a value proposition that wins and the customer recognizes that value and is willing to pay for it, whether it's upfront in the CapEx or whether it's ongoing in the services.

因此，我只想說，我們在價值定價方面還有更多的工作要做，以確保我們所服務的市場和我們向這些市場提供的產品是合適的，並且它們有一個成功的價值主張，客戶認可這個價值並願意為此付費，無論是資本支出中的前期費用還是服務中的持續費用。

Okay. And I see in the MD&A, there's still mention of the Rockwall, Texas facility being pushed out to be reviewed in 2026. Just wanted to know internally, what are you looking at specifically to give you the confidence if the facility were to get a go ahead, what sort of metrics are you using externally to sort of think about that?

好的。我看到，在 MD&A 中仍然提到德克薩斯州羅克沃爾工廠將被推遲到 2026 年接受審查。只是想從內部了解，如果該設施獲得批准，您會特別關注什麼以給您信心，您在外部使用什麼樣的指標來考慮這一點？

Yes. This is part of my kind of operational heritage, if you will. The first order effect for me as a former ops person is you always strive for more out of your installed capacity. And so as we look for ways to be more process efficient, and to see the benefits of our automation coming in, we'll keep looking at our overall capacity and understanding how much available capacity we have to address the markets that we're targeting and then what the role of a Texas facility would or would not do to help us on the capacity front. As we sit today, we're still on pause in Texas without a need for that additional capacity on the horizon. So we'll revisit that statement as we see the market evolve over the next couple of quarters. But as we head into 2026, we should be able to get to a more certain outcome.

是的。如果你願意的話，這是我的營運遺產的一部分。作為前營運人員，對我來說，首要的影響就是你總是努力從已安裝的容量中獲得更多。因此，當我們尋找提高流程效率的方法並看到自動化的好處時，我們會繼續關注我們的整體產能，並了解我們有多少可用產能來滿足我們的目標市場，然後了解德州的工廠在產能方面能發揮什麼作用或不能發揮什麼作用來幫助我們。截至今天，德克薩斯州仍處於暫停狀態，不需要額外的產能。因此，隨著我們觀察未來幾季的市場變化，我們將重新審視這項聲明。但隨著我們進入 2026 年，我們應該能夠獲得更確定的結果。

Okay, thanks.

好的，謝謝。

Craig Irwin, ROTH Capital Partners.

克雷格歐文（Craig Irwin），羅仕證券資本合夥公司（ROTH Capital Partners）。

Good morning and thanks for taking my questions. So Marty, I definitely appreciate the fresh look at the business model over at Ballard. Positive cash flows by the end of '27, not so many fuel cell companies have had positive cash flows even for very brief periods. A much more important milestone, I think, for investors is positive gross margins and maybe margins above a certain threshold of maybe 15% or 20%. Can you maybe talk about what might have you pause as far as putting out the margin target for investors?

早上好，感謝您回答我的問題。所以，馬蒂，我非常欣賞巴拉德對商業模式的全新看法。截至 27 年底，現金流為正，即使在很短的時期內，也沒有多少燃料電池公司擁有正現金流。我認為，對於投資者來說，更重要的里程碑是毛利率為正，或者利潤率可能超過某個門檻，例如 15% 或 20%。您能否談談在製定投資者保證金目標時可能讓您猶豫不決的原因是什麼？

Do we need to get past commitments in backlog where pricing might not have used the same discipline that you're going to bring over the next couple of years? Or are there other structural items that we might need to consider as you work towards this impressive goal of positive cash flows?

我們是否需要完成對積壓的承諾，因為在未來幾年中，定價可能不會採用相同的原則？或者，在您努力實現正現金流這一令人印象深刻的目標時，我們還需要考慮其他結構性因素嗎？

Yes. I would say it this way. I think there's an opportunity for us to do a few things at the same time. So while we have a backlog of orders that was derived in prior to me times, let's say, that doesn't mean that we don't have active engagements with those strategic customers, and we're not actively looking at ways to deliver lower product costs for them, while at the same time, improving our own margins simultaneously. So we share the benefit of a cost road map and at the same time, that helps them, that helps us.

是的。我會這樣說。我認為我們有機會同時做幾件事。因此，雖然我們積壓了之前的一些訂單，但這並不意味著我們沒有與這些策略客戶進行積極的合作，我們也沒有積極尋找為他們降低產品成本的方法，同時提高我們自己的利潤率。因此，我們分享成本路線圖的好處，同時這對他們有幫助，對我們也有幫助。

And so I would say that when you think about the backlog, you think about how would we improve that order book and how would we exchange value with those customers. And when I say that, that includes at the CapEx level and on the overall servicing of the account level. So think of it as total delivered value from the customer service standpoint with upfront and follow-on cost reductions and service improvements.

所以我想說，當你考慮積壓訂單時，你會考慮如何改進訂單簿以及如何與這些客戶交換價值。當我這麼說時，這包括資本支出水準和帳戶水準的整體服務。因此，從客戶服務的角度來看，可以將其視為總交付價值，包括前期和後續成本的降低和服務的改進。

Understood. That makes sense. So then one of the pieces of the equation that was kind of missing at Ballard in the past that -- or at least from my opinion, right, and many investors was a fuel strategy, right? A lot of what Ballard was doing is just saying our customers will figure it out, rather than taking a more active and strategic approach.

明白了。這很有道理。那麼，巴拉德過去缺少的一個環節──至少從我和許多投資人的角度來看，就是燃料策略，對嗎？巴拉德所做的很多事情只是說我們的客戶會解決問題，而不是採取更積極和更具策略性的方法。

Can you talk about whether or not considerations around fuel strategy are a part of what you're looking at these days? How do you feel the team tracked on their support for customers with fuels over the last several years as people are looking at different ways of buying hydrogen. Is this something that is worth a close look as you focus on these positive cash flows in the future?

您能否談談您最近是否正在考慮燃料策略？當人們正在尋找購買氫氣的不同方式時，您認為團隊在過去幾年中對燃料客戶的支持如何？當您未來關注這些正現金流時，這是否值得仔細研究？

Well, I'll give you a quick response, which is I just spent four years trying to develop partnerships on the other side of the table as a molecule producer. And so the partnerships required to deliver the total cost of ownership end-to-end for any one of our verticals require thoughtful partnerships on fuels.

好吧，我會給你一個快速的回答，那就是我剛剛花了四年時間試圖以分子生產商的身份在桌子的另一邊發展合作夥伴關係。因此，為我們的任何一個垂直行業提供端到端的總擁有成本所需的合作夥伴關係需要在燃料方面建立深思熟慮的合作夥伴關係。

To the extent that we can be more of a value add in that discussion with the right kind of strategic partners and bring the right type of imputed mileage, if you will, to bear on their offtake requirements. I think those are exchanges that would be welcome from molecule producers. Put it this way, if I had an opportunity to have partnered with Ballard at my last company, I would have loved to have done so.

在某種程度上，我們可以在與合適的策略夥伴的討論中增加更多價值，並提供正確類型的估算里程，以滿足他們的承購需求。我認為這些交流會受到分子生產商的歡迎。這麼說吧，如果我在上一家公司有機會與巴拉德合作，我會很樂意這麼做。

Fantastic. I knew you bring some new perspective. Thanks for taking my questions.

極好的。我知道你帶來了一些新的視野。感謝您回答我的問題。

[Jill Kanik], Private Investor.

[Jill Kanik]，私人投資者。

Can you hear me?

你聽得到我嗎？

Absolutely.

絕對地。

Yes. Welcome aboard, Marty. My question has to do with China. Can you sum up our activities, our present activities in China and the outlook there? Thank you.

是的。歡迎加入，馬蒂。我的問題與中國有關。您能總結一下我們的活動、我們目前在中國的活動以及前景嗎？謝謝。

Thanks for the question, [Jill]. And we are on materially a pause on China. We have not invested in any way, shape or form over the last quarter. And as we look forward, we're looking to make clear where or where it does not fit in our portfolio. We are continuing to buy components from China. It becomes -- it's a critical supply chain node for us. It's less clear of the demand environment of how the China market is available for us to address. And so we've just stopped approaching the demand side of the China market and instead have been using the supply side on the supply chain to help us lower cost for customers.

謝謝你的提問，[吉爾]。我們實際上正在暫停對中國問題的研究。上個季度我們沒有以任何形式進行投資。展望未來，我們希望明確它在我們的投資組合中哪些地方不適合或哪些地方不適合。我們將繼續從中國購買零件。它成為了我們一個關鍵的供應鏈節點。我們能滿足的中國市場需求環境尚不明確。因此，我們不再關注中國市場的需求方，而是利用供應鏈上的供應方來幫助我們降低客戶成本。

Thank you.

謝謝。

This concludes the question-and-answer session. I would like to turn the conference back over to Marty Neese for any closing remarks. Please go ahead.

問答環節到此結束。我想將會議交還給 Marty Neese 做最後發言。請繼續。

Thank you for joining us today. As I mentioned, Ballard is focused, aligned and operating with urgency. We will continue to take decisive actions to build a more capital-efficient, disciplined and commercially focused company. We look forward to updating you on our progress next quarter. Thank you very much.

感謝您今天加入我們。正如我所提到的，巴拉德專注、協調並且行動緊迫。我們將繼續採取果斷行動，打造一家資本效率更高、紀律更嚴明、以商業為中心的公司。我們期待下個季度向您通報我們的進展。非常感謝。

This brings to a close today's conference call. You may disconnect your lines. Thank you for participating and have a pleasant day.

今天的電話會議到此結束。您可以斷開線路。感謝您的參與並祝您有個愉快的一天。