Ballard Power Systems Inc (BLDP) 2024 Q2 法說會逐字稿

Thank you for standing by. This is the conference operator. Welcome to the Ballard Power Systems second quarter 2024 results conference call. (Operator Instructions).

感謝您的支持。我是會議主持人。歡迎參加 Ballard Power Systems 2024 年第二季業績電話會議。（操作員指令）。

I would now like to turn the conference over to Kate Igbalode, Vice President, Investor Relations. Please go ahead.

現在，我想將會議交給投資者關係副總裁 Kate Igbalode。請繼續。

Thank you, operator, and good morning. Welcome to Ballard's second quarter financial and operating results conference call. With us on today's call are Randy MacEwen, Ballard's CEO; and Paul Dobson, Chief Financial Officer. We will be making forward-looking statements that are based on management's current expectations, beliefs and assumptions concerning future events. Actual results could be materially different. Please refer to our most recent annual information form and other public filings for our complete disclaimer and related information.

謝謝接線員，早安。歡迎參加巴拉德第二季財務與經營業績電話會議。參加今天電話會議的有 Ballard 執行長 Randy MacEwen 和財務長 Paul Dobson。我們將根據管理層對未來事件的當前預期、信念和假設做出前瞻性陳述。實際結果可能會有重大差異。請參閱我們最新的年度資訊表和其他公開文件，以了解我們的完整免責聲明和相關資訊。

I'll now turn the call over to Randy.

我現在將電話轉給蘭迪。

Thank you, Kate, and welcome, everyone to today's conference call. During Q2, we made measured progress on key 2024 deliverables related to products, advanced manufacturing and markets. All in support of our long-term strategy.

謝謝凱特，歡迎大家參加今天的電話會議。在第二季度，我們在與產品、先進製造和市場相關的 2024 年關鍵交付成果方面取得了顯著進展。所有這些都是為了支持我們的長期策略。

On products, we launched our ninth generation PEM fuel cell engine, resetting the industry standard for PEM fuel cell engine performance for heavy-duty mobility. Enabled by an innovative open architecture design and other new design advances the powerful and compact FCmove XD enables several important performance improvements as compared to our prior generation engine, including 120 kilowatt power output from our latest high-performance single stack.

在產品方面，我們推出了第九代PEM燃料電池發動機，重新定義了重型汽車PEM燃料電池發動機性能的行業標準。由於創新的開放式架構設計和其他新的設計進步，強大而緊湊的 FCmove XD 與上一代引擎相比實現了多項重要的性能改進，包括我們最新的高性能單堆的 120 千瓦功率輸出。

33% reduction in total park count, significantly improving reliability and reducing costs. High peak system efficiency at greater than 60%, enabling improved fuel consumption and efficient heat rejection. Wide operating temperature range up to 95 degrees C. Integrated power controller incorporates DC/DC converter, air compressor inverter and a power distribution unit, along with proprietary software controls, enabling improved engine operation and efficiency.

停車場總數減少 33%，顯著提高可靠性並降低成本。峰值系統效率高達 60% 以上，可改善燃料消耗並提高散熱效率。工作溫度範圍寬，最高可達攝氏 95 度。整合式電源控制器包含 DC/DC 轉換器、空氣壓縮機逆變器和配電裝置，以及專有軟體控制，可改善引擎的運作和效率。

Rapid up and down transient times with an innovative hot standby mode, enabling rapid power increase, improved manufacturability with assembly times cut by more than half and easier access to parts for faster and lower-cost field maintenance.

採用創新的熱待機模式，可實現快速的啟動和停止瞬態時間，從而實現快速的功率提升，提高可製造性，裝配時間縮短一半以上，並且更容易獲取零件，從而實現更快、更低成本的現場維護。

An additional compelling feature of our new FCmove XD is scalability based on modularity. We can offer customers efficient integration of 120 kilowatt, 240 kilowatt and 360 kilowatt solutions depending on vehicle class, use case and duty cycle. For example, two engines totaling 240 kilowatts of power output can be easily installed in the engine compartment of a typical Class 8 heavy-duty truck and enhancing standardization and offering redundancy.

我們的新 FCmove XD 的另一個引人注目的特點是基於模組化的可擴展性。根據車輛類別、使用情況和工作週期，我們可以為客戶提供 120 千瓦、240 千瓦和 360 千瓦解決方案的高效整合。例如，兩台總輸出功率為 240 千瓦的引擎可以輕鬆安裝在典型的 8 級重型卡車的引擎室內，從而提高標準化並提供冗餘度。

With the design life of 30,000 hours plus hours of operation or over 1 million miles in truck operation at typical duty cycles. The FCmove XD engine is developed to deliver class-leading durability and low total cost of ownership.

設計壽命為 30,000 小時以上運行小時數，或在典型工作週期內卡車運行超過 100 萬英里。FCmove XD 引擎旨在提供一流的耐用性和較低的整體擁有成本。

We already have initial units in the hands of some select customers and have been receiving positive feedback. There's growing market interest and we have manufacturing builds planned during the remainder of the year.

我們已經將初始設備交付給一些特定客戶，並收到了正面的回饋。市場興趣日益增長，我們計劃在今年剩餘時間內進行製造。

On advanced manufacturing, we're tracking to plan against project forge, which is our program to scale graphite bipolar plate production by approximately 10 times and reduced cost of next-generation plates by up to 70%. We have developed several novel manufacturing processes that enable full automation of the bipolar plate production processes, which we expect to result in significantly reduced labor costs, improved material yield, reduced production tack times, reduce energy demand and the elimination of water consumption from plate manufacturing. We expect commissioning and optimization of our new bipolar plate production processes in Burnaby in late 2025.

在先進製造方面，我們正在追蹤鍛造項目計劃，該計劃旨在將石墨雙極板產量擴大約 10 倍，並將下一代板的成本降低高達 70%。我們開發了幾種新穎的製造工藝，可以實現雙極板生產過程的完全自動化，我們期望這將顯著降低勞動力成本、提高材料產量、縮短生產追蹤時間、減少能源需求並消除板製造過程中的水消耗。我們預計將於 2025 年底在本拿比調試和優化新的雙極板生產流程。

And on markets, we announced a strategic technology partnership with Vertiv to demonstrate the technical feasibility and customer benefits of fuel cell back of power solutions for the fast-growing data center market. Initial validation tests at Vertiv's facility in Ohio have demonstrated successful operation of zero-emission fuel cell backup power integrated in Vertiv, UPS architecture for data centers. We're continuing to work with Vertiv to understand the market requirements, develop and optimize technical solution and engage the market.

在市場方面，我們宣布與 Vertiv 建立策略技術合作夥伴關係，以展示燃料電池備用電源解決方案在快速成長的資料中心市場中的技術可行性和客戶利益。在俄亥俄州 Vertiv 工廠進行的初步驗證測試表明，整合在 Vertiv 資料中心 UPS 架構中的零排放燃料電池備用電源已成功運作。我們將繼續與 Vertiv 合作，了解市場需求、開發和優化技術解決方案並參與市場。

I'd like to make a few comments about our order book and also about broader market adoption. First, on the order book. Following almost $130 million total new orders in the previous two quarters, Q2 net order intake was soft at $5 million as certain customers deferred new orders. Given the stage of development of the industry, we expect continued quarter orderly lumpiness for the foreseeable future.

我想對我們的訂單以及更廣泛的市場採用發表一些評論。首先，關於訂單簿。繼前兩季新訂單總額近 1.3 億美元之後，第二季淨訂單額僅為 500 萬美元，因為某些客戶推遲了新訂單。考慮到產業的發展階段，我們預計在可預見的未來，季度有序波動將繼續存在。

Second, on overall market adoption, it's important to note that while we remain confident in the long-term value proposition of hydrogen fuel cells, the time line for market adoption is clearly moving to the right. We continue to observe a slow pace of contract awards for new clean hydrogen projects. We've spoken before about the slowing effects of the inflationary and interest rate environment over the past few years that are creating challenging economics for many hydrogen projects. We're also seeing projected policy uncertainty that is slowing market adoption. As an example, there's continued uncertainty in the US, including the extended discussion around the 45V clean hydrogen production tax credit rules.

其次，就整體市場採用而言，值得注意的是，雖然我們對氫燃料電池的長期價值主張仍然充滿信心，但市場採用的時間線顯然正在向右移動。我們繼續觀察到新的清潔氫計畫合約授予步伐緩慢。我們之前曾談到過去幾年通膨和利率環境的放緩效應，這給許多氫能項目帶來了經濟挑戰。我們也看到預期的政策不確定性正在減緩市場採用。例如，美國仍然存在不確定性，包括圍繞 45V 清潔氫生產稅收抵免規則的長期討論。

The draft regulations, which were released eight months ago are still being debated by the industry. It remains unclear whether these regulations will be resolved before the US presidential election. This is delaying investment in the US hydrogen industry including in large-scale clean hydrogen projects. We also continue to observe policy uncertainty and related market delays in Europe and China.

該法規草案已於八個月前發布，但目前業界仍在對此進行爭論。目前尚不清楚這些規定是否會在美國總統大選前解決。這推遲了對美國氫能產業的投資，包括對大型清潔氫能計畫的投資。我們也持續觀察歐洲和中國的政策不確定性和相關市場延遲。

Overall, we see a multiyear pushout on the availability of low-cost, low-carbon hydrogen and hydrogen refueling infrastructure, which represents a significant headwinds in our markets, including the truck vertical. Given this environment, we continue to carefully track market adoption indicators and scrutinize the pace of our investments and spending. For example, and as Paul will note, we have toggled back our 2024 CapEx spend.

總體而言，我們看到低成本、低碳氫化合物和氫燃料補給基礎設施的可用性將面臨多年的推遲，這對我們的市場（包括卡車垂直市場）構成了重大阻力。在這種環境下，我們將繼續密切追蹤市場採用指標並審查我們的投資和支出步伐。例如，正如保羅所指出的，我們已經削減了 2024 年的資本支出。

With this backdrop, we want to provide a brief update on our proposed production facility in Texas, where we've been awarded US funding totaling $94 million. We continue to do our work to assess the business case for this project. We're conducting a thorough analysis of the scope, timing, cost, alternatives and financial return on the proposed project. including an analysis of capital deployment timing relative to market adoption and volume timing.

在此背景下，我們想簡要介紹我們在德克薩斯州擬建的生產設施，我們已在那裡獲得了總計 9400 萬美元的美國資助。我們將繼續進行工作來評估該專案的商業案例。我們正在對擬議項目的範圍、時間、成本、替代方案和財務回報進行徹底的分析，包括相對於市場採用和數量時間的資本部署時間分析。

We're also reviewing project permitting, conditions and documentation including with the US DOE, other funding sources and related to site acquisition. This is important work and it's being done to support making a go or no-go final investment decision later in 2024. We look forward to providing an update on this later in the year.

我們也正在審查專案許可、條件和文件，包括美國能源部、其他資金來源以及與場地收購相關的文件。這是一項重要的工作，旨在支持在 2024 年稍後做出是否進行最終投資的決定。我們期待在今年稍後提供有關此事的最新消息。

Before I turn the call over to Paul to discuss our Q2 financials, I want to emphasize again that notwithstanding the stalling timeline for market adoption, we remain confident in the long-term direction of travel including important role at hydrogen fuel cells employee in helping decarbonize our global economy, including in the heavy-duty mobility markets as well as Ballard's long-term positioning.

在我將電話轉給保羅討論我們的第二季度財務狀況之前，我想再次強調，儘管市場採用的時間表停滯不前，但我們仍然對長期的發展方向充滿信心，包括氫燃料電池員工在幫助全球經濟脫碳方面發揮的重要作用，包括在重型移動市場以及巴拉德的長期定位。

We continue to focus on controllables, including customer experience, product development programs, product cost reduction initiatives, advanced manufacturing capacity planning all while maintaining a strong balance sheet for long-term sustainability.

我們持續專注於可控因素，包括客戶體驗、產品開發計劃、產品成本降低計劃、先進的製造能力規劃，同時保持強勁的資產負債表以實現長期永續發展。

With that, I'll now pass the call over to Paul.

說完這些，我現在將電話轉給保羅。

Thanks, Randy. In Q2, Ballard delivered $16 million in revenue, driven by strong growth in the bus vertical, up 84% quarter-over-quarter. Our fuel cell product sales revenue was up 48% year-over-year and made up 84% of the total revenue versus 59% in Q2 last year, once again emphasizing our shift into a commercial products company. As a reminder, from previous years, we see that Ballard's revenue is typically heavily indexed to Q4 and in 2024 is following a similar trend.

謝謝，蘭迪。在第二季度，巴拉德實現了 1,600 萬美元的營收，這得益於公車垂直業務的強勁成長，季增 84%。我們的燃料電池產品銷售收入年增 48%，佔總收入的 84%，而去年第二季為 59%，再次強調了我們向商業產品公司的轉變。提醒一下，從前幾年的情況來看，我們發現 Ballard 的收入通常與第四季密切相關，而 2024 年也將呈現類似的趨勢。

With the shift in revenue mix to power products and the burden of fixed production overhead costs being spread over seasonally low revenue, we saw a gross margin of negative 32% and an 11 point decrease compared to Q2 of 2023. We are still anticipating underlying gross margins will breakeven in Q4 as revenue increases and product cost reduction activities have greater impact. We reported total operating expenses of $36.2 million and cash operating costs of $30.9 million, both relatively flat compared to prior year comparables.

隨著收入結構向電力產品轉變，以及固定生產間接成本負擔分攤到季節性低收入上，我們的毛利率為負 32%，與 2023 年第二季相比下降了 11 個百分點。隨著營收增加和產品成本削減活動產生更大影響，我們仍預期第四季基礎毛利率將達到收支平衡。我們報告的總營運費用為 3,620 萬美元，現金營運成本為 3,090 萬美元，與去年同期相比基本持平。

Capital expenditures totaled approximately $7 million in Q2. We are maintaining our guidance range for total operating expenses. However, we are reducing our guidance for capital expenditures for the year to $25 million to $40 million from $50 million to $70 million. We believe it is the prudent decision is to reduce our capital spending in light of market conditions and adoption rates and to take advantage of the flexibility within our capital project timelines. We have a strong balance sheet, ending the quarter with $678 million in cash and cash equivalents.

第二季資本支出總額約 700 萬美元。我們維持總營運費用的指導範圍。不過，我們將今年的資本支出預期從 5,000 萬至 7,000 萬美元下調至 2,500 萬至 4,000 萬美元。我們認為，根據市場狀況和採用率減少資本支出並利用資本項目時間表內的靈活性是明智的決定。我們的資產負債表強勁，本季末現金和現金等價物為 6.78 億美元。

With that, I'll turn the call over to the operator for questions.

說完這些，我將把電話轉給接線生來回答問題。

(Operator Instructions).

（操作員指令）。

Rupert Merer, National Bank.

魯珀特·梅勒，國家銀行。

Hello. Good morning, everyone. Maybe if I could start the questions on your product, your ninth generation of PEM fuel cell. You told us a little about the performance improvements, Randy. How does this compare to the competition? And what do you do next? How much better can you get from here?

你好。大家早安。也許我可以開始詢問有關你們的產品，即第九代 PEM 燃料電池的問題。蘭迪，您向我們介紹了一些有關性能改進的情況。與競爭對手相比如何？接下來你要做什麼？從這裡你還能得到多少好處？

Morning, Rupert. Thanks for the question. I think when you look at the competitive dynamics, there's certainly a lot of investment going on from some of the players that are introducing products or planning to introduce products. When we look at things like durability, the 30,000-plus hours of durability, we think that is a major competitive advantage at Ballard. When we look at power density, whether that's measured by volumetric or gravimetric power density, we're seeing that this FCmove XD actually has the highest power density industry for the heavy-duty applications.

早上好，魯伯特。謝謝你的提問。我認為，當你觀察競爭動態時，你會發現一些正在推出產品或計劃推出產品的參與者確實投入了大量資金。當我們考慮耐用性等方面時，超過 30,000 小時的耐用性，我們認為這是 Ballard 的主要競爭優勢。當我們觀察功率密度時，無論是透過體積功率密度還是重量功率密度來衡量，我們都發現 FCmove XD 實際上具有重型應用中最高的功率密度產業。

And then I think when we look at the architecture and the part counts, we continue to reduce the part counts, we think that, that's critically important. I think some of the other things, too, is just the integration of DC/DC and software and the air compressor inverter. All these things are bringing together a solution that's easier for customers to integrate and easier for customers to package in service.

然後我認為，當我們查看架構和零件數量時，我們會繼續減少零件數量，我們認為，這是至關重要的。我認為其他一些東西也只是 DC/DC 和軟體以及空氣壓縮機逆變器的整合。所有這些因素共同構成了一個解決方案，使客戶能夠更輕鬆地集成，也使客戶能夠更輕鬆地打包服務。

So I think overall, we feel very, very happy about not just the improvement this represents on our prior generation, but where it stands in the competitive marketplace.

因此我認為總體而言，我們感到非常高興，不僅因為它比上一代產品有所改進，還因為它在競爭激烈的市場中的地位。

So if you look at the plan you laid out a few years ago on your technology plan and cost reduction, how far along are you now? How much further do you have to go on that path?

因此，如果您回顧一下幾年前製定的技術計劃和成本削減計劃，現在進展如何？這條路你還要走多遠？

Yeah. It's a great question. We highlighted kind of two aspects of that plan. One we called 3/3, which was looking at a 70% cost reduction for our stacks. And then on top of that, also looking at about a 70% cost reduction on balance of plant components.

是的。這是一個很好的問題。我們強調了該計劃的兩個方面。我們打電話給 3/3，希望將我們的堆疊成本降低 70%。除此之外，還要考慮將工廠組件的成本降低約 70%。

And certainly, the work that we've done on MEA over the last number of years, the work that we just described today on next-generation bipolar plates and the enabling of lower-cost plate production, which is after MEA is the second most important cost into the stack.

當然，我們在過去幾年中對 MEA 所做的工作，我們今天剛剛描述的有關下一代雙極板的工作以及實現低成本板生產的工作，這是繼 MEA 之後電池堆中第二重要的成本。

And then the work we've done on developing engines and the supply chain to reduce balance of plant components. There's a lot of work that I would say, over the past three years, we've seen not just the in-house designs, but strong collaboration with, I would characterize it as a maturing supply chain for a new balance of plant components.

然後我們在開發引擎和供應鏈方面所做的工作是為了減少工廠零件的平衡。我想說，在過去三年中，我們做了很多工作，不僅看到了內部設計，還看到了強有力的合作，我將其描述為工廠組件新平衡的成熟供應鏈。

So I think we've made significant progress. We're probably about two-thirds of the way through perhaps more than that overall, and we expect to see over the next 18 to 24-months kind of completion of these important projects, particularly with the bipolar plate project completing by the end of next year.

所以我認為我們已經取得了重大進展。總體來說，我們可能已經完成了三分之二甚至更多，我們預計在未來 18 到 24 個月內完成這些重要項目，特別是雙極板項目將於明年年底完成。

Great Rand. I'll leave it there and get back in the queue. Thank you.

偉大的蘭德。我會把它留在那裡並回到隊列中。謝謝。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Mac Whale, Cormark Securities.

Mac Whale，Cormark 證券。

Hey, good morning, Randy, I'm wondering like how should we think about that transition on the introduction of the next gen? Like would your customers be flipped over to that product within a year? Or how do we think about that?

嘿，早上好，蘭迪，我想知道我們應該如何看待下一代產品的推出的轉變？例如，您的客戶會在一年內轉向該產品嗎？或者我們如何看待這個問題？

Yeah, great question, Mac. I would say it really is different for different customers. So some customers that have already integrated products into their platform. And have been enjoying success with those products may want to keep those products for a certain period of time. And then other customers may want to move over to products fairly quickly. What I'm seeing with newer customers is that they are looking to adopt the latest technology.

是的，這個問題問得很好，麥克。我想說對於不同的客戶來說確實是不同的。一些客戶已經將產品整合到他們的平台中。並且已經享受到這些產品帶來的成功的人可能希望在一定時期內保留這些產品。然後其他客戶可能希望很快轉向產品。我發現新客戶正在尋求採用最新技術。

And also, I would say this engine is specifically designed to be attractive for the truck market. And that's where we have seen -- if I kind of characterize the markets we typically look at bus truck, rail, marine and stationery, the bus market, we have products that are mature and proven in the field. We had an extraordinary first half of the year actually on the bus market with growth up over 120% for delivery of fuel cell engines and revenue associated with the bus market.

而且我想說的是，這款引擎是專門為吸引卡車市場而設計的。這就是我們所看到的——如果我來描述我們通常關注的市場，那就是公共汽車、卡車、鐵路、船舶和文具市場，在公共汽車市場，我們擁有成熟且在該領域經過驗證的產品。事實上，我們在客車市場上度過了非凡的上半年，燃料電池引擎的交付量和與客車市場相關的收入增長了 120% 以上。

So the bus market has products there. This engine designed for the truck market, though, I would say the truck market has been slower to adopt, but we have -- introducing this new product should be helpful in terms of kind of catalyzing that.

所以客車市場那裡有產品。雖然這款引擎是為卡車市場設計的，但我想說卡車市場對此的採用速度較慢，但我們推出這款新產品應該有助於促進這一進程。

Just going back, I did want to highlight as well, the same bus, rail and stationary the three markets where we continue to be kind of pleased with the progress there with truck and marine being the two markets that I say are going much lower than expected.

回過頭來看，我確實也想強調一下，同樣的公車、鐵路和固定式車輛這三個市場，我們對這些市場的進展感到滿意，而卡車和船舶這兩個市場的進展則遠低於預期。

Okay. And when we look at the backlog, how does it work with the new -- when you're introducing a new generation. Do the orders in the backlog reflect old products? Or is there an option in those to convert over to a newer generation. Like how do we think about looking at the backlog in a period where you're introducing a new generation.

好的。當我們查看積壓訂單時，它會如何與新產品配合使用——當你推出新一代產品時。積壓訂單是否反映舊產品？或是否有轉換至新一代的選項。例如，在推出新一代產品期間，我們如何看待積壓問題。

Yeah. The lion's share, almost all of the backlog relates to existing products that customers are working with. There'll be a small amount in our order book that relates to new orders for those -- for the XD. However, I would say you'd see more XD filling out the backlog and order book as we move to the end of the year and into mid-next year.

是的。大部分積壓訂單，幾乎所有積壓訂單都與客戶正在使用的現有產品有關。我們的訂單簿中會有少量與 XD 的新訂單相關的內容。然而，我想說，隨著我們進入今年年底和明年年中，你會看到更多的 XD 填補積壓和訂單簿。

Okay. And just lastly on that, does that mean as we see the order book, let's say, over the next couple of years evolve on a kilowatt basis, like presumably, you're passing some of the cost savings in pricing over. So the equivalent dollar value in revenue and backlog going forward would actually represent a different number of kilowatts. Is that fair?

好的。最後，這是否意味著，當我們觀察到未來幾年的訂單量以千瓦為單位變化時，您可能會將部分成本節省轉化為定價。因此，未來收入和積壓訂單的等值美元價值實際上代表不同的千瓦數。這樣公平嗎？

Yeah, for sure. The cost per kilowatt sold to a customer is certainly reducing. We've seen that already reducing over the last few years. The challenge for us, and I think why we're investing so much in product development and advanced manufacturing is to make sure that we're reducing our costs faster than the erosion of selling price, so we see margin expansion.

是的，當然。出售給客戶的每千瓦時電費成本肯定在降低。我們已經看到過去幾年這種現象減少。我們面臨的挑戰，以及我們在產品開發和先進製造方面投入如此多資金的原因，是為了確保我們降低成本的速度快於銷售價格下降的速度，這樣我們才能看到利潤率的擴大。

Okay. And just if I may, on the last question I had was on the CapEx guidance shift. Was there any -- in the previous guidance, was there any spend on the Texas facility contemplated in that number?

好的。如果可以的話，我最後一個問題是關於資本支出指導轉變的。在先前的指導中，是否考慮過在德州工廠的支出？

Yeah. Mac, it's Paul here. Yeah, there was some which we've -- as we mentioned, we've dialed that back to a rather de minimis amount this year. We do expect we're going to have an FID decision later this year -- and even if we go forward with it, I still expect the CapEx for that facility to be relatively modest this year, just given the timing of that. So more to come on that later.

是的。麥克，我是保羅。是的，正如我們所提到的，今年我們已經將其調回了相當低的水平。我們確實預計我們將在今年稍後做出最終投資決定——即使我們繼續推進，考慮到時間安排，我仍然預計今年該工廠的資本支出將相對適中。稍後我們會對此進行更多介紹。

Okay. Thanks. That's all for me. Thanks.

好的。謝謝。對我來說就這些了。謝謝。

Thanks Mac.

謝謝 Mac。

Aaron MacNeil, TD Cowen.

亞倫·麥克尼爾（Aaron MacNeil），TD Cowen。

Good morning. Thanks for taking my questions. I just wanted to dig in a bit more to the booking deferrals. I guess can you speak to the magnitude of those potential orders that were maybe close but deferred? Like are they sort of bigger Siemens or Solaris type bookings or are they more smaller dollar orders?

早安.感謝您回答我的問題。我只是想更深入地了解一下預訂延期的情況。我想您能談談那些可能已經接近但被推遲的潛在訂單的數量嗎？它們是西門子或 Solaris 類型的較大訂單，還是更小額的美元訂單？

Yeah, Aaron. Good morning. And thanks for the question. There are -- I would just characterize kind of three significant orders that we've been working on through the year and are -- have been pushed into the second half of the year, hopefully. But, don't want to quantify them, but they're, they're quite material for us.

是的，亞倫。早安.感謝您的提問。我只想描述我們今年一直在處理的三筆重要訂單，希望這些訂單能延後到下半年。但是，不想量化它們，但它們對我們來說非常重要。

Okay. And then switching to -- I guess, same line of thinking is the reduced capital spending. I can appreciate that the priority is still cost reduction initiatives, but how could we expect, R&D spending to trend into 2025? Like, do you think we'll see a reduction there, like we've seen on the capital side?

好的。然後轉換到──我想，同樣的想法就是減少資本支出。我可以理解當務之急仍然是降低成本，但我們如何預期研發支出會呈現 2025 年的趨勢呢？例如，您認為我們會看到那裡的減少，就像我們在資本方面看到的那樣嗎？

Yeah, I think, Aaron, with the current environment and the push-out we discussed earlier, we are carefully tracking, those market adoption indicators and trying to pace our investment. So, yes, we're scrutinizing our investments. And I think you probably expect to see some reduction in 2025.

是的，我認為，Aaron，在當前環境和我們之前討論過的推動下，我們正在仔細追蹤那些市場採用指標，並試圖調整我們的投資。所以，是的，我們正在審查我們的投資。我認為到 2025 年可能會看到減少。

Okay. Thanks. I'll turn it back.

好的。謝謝。我會把它轉回去。

Yeah. Thanks, Aaron.

是的。謝謝，亞倫。

Jordan Levy, Truist Securities.

喬丹·利維（Jordan Levy），Truist Securities。

Good morning, all. Thanks for all the details. I just wanted to start on the margin front. Now, you may have mentioned this, but could you just talk to kind of -- we know where gross margins came in for the quarter, but -- change in that relative to where contribution margins came in of the products themselves? And then, kind of along those lines, too, any change in kind of the timeline with this slowdown in market activity on the gross margin break-even side of things?

大家早安。感謝您提供所有詳細資訊。我只是想從邊緣方面開始。現在，您可能已經提到了這一點，但是您能否談談——我們知道本季的毛利率是多少，但是——相對於產品本身的貢獻利潤率，毛利率有何變化？那麼，沿著這樣的思路，隨著市場活動放緩，毛利率損益平衡方面的時間表有什麼變化嗎？

Yeah, again, Paul here. So just on the gross margin in the quarter, just minus 32%, it was 4 points higher than Q1, but 11 points lower than Q2 of last year. So with that 11 point difference quarter on year-on-year, most of that was in the contribution margin. So both the power products, we had the deferral of certain orders to future quarters, at higher margins.

是的，又是保羅。因此，僅就本季的毛利率而言，僅為-32％，比第一季高4個百分點，但比去年第二季低11個百分點。因此，季度年比差異為 11 個百分點，其中大部分是貢獻利潤。因此，對於電力產品，我們將某些訂單推遲到未來幾個季度，以獲得更高的利潤率。

We did have strategic pricing for some key customers. The product mix and cost as well influenced that. So the contribution margin was lower. Also, we had lower revenues in our technology solutions business as well -- and lower margins on the active customers.

我們確實對一些關鍵客戶制定了策略定價。產品組合和成本也對此產生了影響。因此貢獻利潤較低。此外，我們的技術解決方案業務的收入也有所下降，活躍客戶的利潤率也較低。

Offsetting that though, or partially offsetting that I should say, the provisions that we had, particularly on inventory, inventory write-downs versus last year, for the older generation products, we did a lot of that clean up last year, and so that represented an improvement. And -- so net that so contribution margins down into quarter, partially offset by better on provisions.

不過，為了抵消這一點，或者應該說是部分抵消這一點，我們所做的準備，特別是庫存準備，與去年相比，對於老一代產品的庫存減記，我們去年做了很多清理工作，所以這代表著一種進步。因此，淨利潤率下降到季度，部分被更好的撥備所抵消。

In the quarter, we were down by 11 points. So we look at the full year, we are forecasting an improvement in the gross margin overall versus last year, and it could be in the range of 5 to 10 points, depending on the final revenue figures. We are expecting, as I mentioned in the comments, Q4 to be positive gross margin. What we're seeing on the contribution margin side of things, we are seeing improvements on the power products.

本節比賽我們落後了11分。因此，我們展望全年，我們預測整體毛利率將比去年有所提高，可能在 5 到 10 個百分點之間，具體取決於最終的收入數字。正如我在評論中提到的，我們預計第四季度的毛利率將為正值。從貢獻利潤率來看，我們看到了電力產品的改進。

So year-on-year, as cost reductions come through and as volume grows, we are seeing contribution margin for power products going up. But again, that's offset -- being offset by lower contribution margin from technology solutions, which will have a lower impact over time, but we are still seeing it, we're going to see it this year. Again, also for the full year, we took a large write-down at inventory last year. And Q4 for inventory, we're not expecting that to repeat. And that combined with the contribution margin will mean our gross margins will be slightly improved on last year, 5 to 10 points, as I mentioned.

因此，隨著成本的降低和產量的成長，我們看到電力產品的貢獻利潤率逐年上升。但同樣，這是抵消——被技術解決方案的較低貢獻利潤所抵消，隨著時間的推移，其影響會越來越小，但我們仍然會看到它，今年我們會看到它。同樣，就全年而言，我們去年也對庫存進行了大幅減記。對於第四季的庫存，我們預計這種情況不會重複。正如我所提到的，這與貢獻利潤率相結合意味著我們的毛利率將比去年略有提高，5 到 10 個百分點。

Also I should mention on our fixed overheads, slightly lower, so not a big impact or change on the gross margin percentage. As Randy just mentioned, though, on all of our spending, we are continuing to scrutinize that quite heavily, of spending across the board and could see reduction in some of our overheads going into next year, which will help gross margin as well.

另外我應該要提到我們的固定間接費用略低，因此對毛利率百分比沒有太大的影響或變化。正如蘭迪剛才提到的那樣，對於我們所有的支出，我們將繼續嚴格審查，全面審查支出，並可能看到明年我們的一些管理費用減少，這也有助於提高毛利率。

Thanks for that, Paul. And then maybe just an update around the Texas facility. I know you guys haven't made a go or no go decision there. But I think, when you guys were thinking through the initial investment there that came after a decision to forego for their CapEx investment in the China market.

謝謝你，保羅。然後也許只是有關德克薩斯州工廠的最新消息。我知道你們還沒做出去或不去的決定。但我認為，當你們考慮在那裡進行的初始投資時，這是在決定放棄在中國市場的資本支出投資之後做出的。

So, I guess I'm just curious. I know you all are very low-versed, and have done a lot of work into the European market as well. So when you're looking at the decision there and then, kind of as part of that, any potential alternatives you might look to, what does that look like, or does it sort of just become a when is the right time to make this move sort of decision?

所以，我想我只是好奇。我知道你們都很精通，也為歐洲市場做了很多工作。因此，當您當時正在考慮這個決定時，作為其中的一部分，您可能會考慮的任何潛在替代方案是什麼樣的，或者它是否只是變成了何時是做出這一舉措的正確時機的決定？

Yeah, good question, Jordan. I think one of the challenges, quite frankly, is that the funding that we've secured in the US is very significant, kind of in the range of $94 million of total funding, including from the DOE and some of the 48C credits. And when you look at that in aggregate, it's a significant amount of capital that's kind of almost, a once-in-a-lifetime top of opportunity for funding.

是的，喬丹，問得好。坦白說，我認為其中一個挑戰是，我們在美國獲得的資金非常可觀，總計約 9,400 萬美元，其中包括來自美國能源部的資金和部分 48C 信貸。從整體來看，這是一筆相當大的資金，幾乎是一生難得的融資機會。

The challenge is that overall investment cycle, is coming earlier than the market adoption. And so that's really what we're wrestling with, is making sure that we're trying to pace the timing of our own investments at Ballard, to make sure that when we're bringing production online, we have demand for that product.

挑戰在於整體投資週期早於市場採用週期。所以，我們真正要努力解決的問題是，確保我們嘗試把握好我們在巴拉德的投資時機，以確保當我們開始生產時，對該產品有需求。

Now, we don't have an order book clearly for that type of volume that we're talking about for a three-gigawatt facility in Texas at this time. So we're continuing to see, make sure we have as much time as possible to see the market adoption indicators, before we pull trigger on capital. So that's the challenge in a nutshell.

目前，我們還沒有明確的訂單，以滿足我們目前談論的德克薩斯州 3 千兆瓦發電廠的這種容量。因此，我們會繼續觀察，確保在投入資金之前，我們有盡可能多的時間來觀察市場採用指標。簡而言之，這就是挑戰。

Thanks so much. Appreciate it.

非常感謝。非常感謝。

Saumya Jain, UBS.

瑞銀的 Saumya Jain。

Hi, do you guys have any updates on the Solaris order? And I guess, how's the timeline for supply-looking? And if you have any more orders or anything from New Flyer as well?

大家好，請問你們有關於 Solaris 訂單的最新消息嗎？我想問一下，供應時間表是怎麼樣的？您還有更多訂單或其他來自 New Flyer 的產品嗎？

Yeah, Somya, thanks for the question. I think it's important to highlight, again, that the bus market is growing quite well for us and up 84% in the quarter, and over 120% year-to-date, almost $20 million of revenue for us in the first half of the year.

是的，Somya，謝謝你的提問。我認為有必要再次強調，我們的巴士市場成長勢頭良好，本季度增長了 84%，年初至今增長了 120% 以上，上半年我們的收入接近 2000 萬美元。

I do want to highlight as well in the US market you mentioned New Flyer, we're pretty encouraged with the fact that we've got some low -- or no-emission grant program that's been out there with the Federal Transit Administration in the US.

我確實想強調您提到的美國市場 New Flyer，我們非常高興看到我們與美國聯邦運輸管理局合作推出了一些低排放或零排放的補助計劃。

It is now up significantly. So awards this year have been awarded are approaching $300 million, it's about 150% higher over last year. So that's kind of an encouraging indicator to support bus program growth into next year, as those low-no funds get deployed. So that's critically important. New Flyer typically orders later in the year, for the following year.

現在已大幅上漲。今年頒發的獎金接近 3 億美元，比去年高出約 150%。因此，隨著這些低額資金的部署，這是一個令人鼓舞的指標，可以支持公車計畫在明年的成長。所以這至關重要。New Flyer 通常會在當年稍後訂購下一年的訂單。

So, we expect to see some opportunities there in the second half of the year for the order book for 2025. And then Solaris, we've been executing as the numbers show against Solaris, and other bus customers in the first half of the year. We also signed an order for 70 modules, or engines for a right bus that we commented on earlier this year. So overall, I would say we've had some additional orders from Solaris, since that large order that we mentioned, but it's been pretty incremental as compared to that large order.

因此，我們預計今年下半年會出現一些 2025 年訂單的機會。然後是 Solaris，正如數據顯示的，我們在上半年針對 Solaris 和其他公車客戶的執行情況。我們還簽署了一份 70 個模組的訂單，或者說是我們在今年早些時候評論過的一款右路公車的引擎。所以總的來說，我想說自從我們提到的那個大訂單以來，我們又從 Solaris 那裡得到了一些額外的訂單，但與那個大訂單相比，這個數字是相當可觀的。

Got it. Thank you. And so I guess, how do you see Ballard playing out in the U.S. rail market as well, more specifically?

知道了。謝謝。那麼我想，您如何看待巴拉德在美國鐵路市場的表現呢？更具體地說？

Yeah, that's a great question. The rail market, we're seeing opportunities both in passenger rail. And we see some opportunities developing there that we're working against, as well as for freight locomotives. And we're working on that as well. So both those markets, we have significant opportunities that we're trying to advance in the second half of the year. And I believe the freight locomotive market, will be a hydrogen market.

是的，這是一個很好的問題。在鐵路市場，我們看到了客運鐵路方面的機會。我們看到那裡正在出現一些機遇，我們正在為此努力，貨運機車也是如此。我們也正在努力實現這一點。因此，在這兩個市場中，我們都擁有重大機遇，並試圖在下半年取得進展。我相信貨運機車市場將會是氫氣市場。

The question is just the timing of that. And so, we think when you look at that application, heavy trains, long routes, you're talking about very high power requirements, 1.2 to 2 megawatts of power for some of these line haul locomotives. This is the only way, in my opinion, for them to decarbonize is, to go with hydrogen. So we're excited about both those markets.

問題只是時機而已。因此，我們認為，當您考慮該應用時，重型列車、長途路線對功率的要求非常高，對於某些幹線機車來說，功率需要 1.2 到 2 兆瓦。在我看來，這是他們脫碳的唯一方法，就是使用氫氣。因此我們對這兩個市場都感到興奮。

I think we're going to see important market indicators here over the next 6 to 12-months that show both those markets in North America, both for freight as well as for passenger showing next stage of development and demonstration and commercialization.

我認為，在未來 6 到 12 個月內，我們將看到重要的市場指標，這些指標表明北美的貨運市場和客運市場都將進入下一階段的發展、展示和商業化階段。

Got it. Thank you.

知道了。謝謝。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Kashy Harrison, Piper Sandler.

卡西·哈里森、派珀·桑德勒。

Good morning. Thank you for taking my questions. So the first one on the deferred orders, apologies if I missed this, but what are your customers telling you is the driver behind the deferment of orders? Is it the US elections or is it something else?

早安.感謝您回答我的問題。因此，第一個關於延期訂單的問題，如果我錯過了這一點，請原諒，但是您的客戶告訴您訂單延期背後的驅動因素是什麼？是美國大選還是其他原因？

Yeah, in these cases, these opportunities we're describing, they're not dependent at all on the US election. So it's more about the customer timing for finalizing funding -- finalizing program timing, making sure that their access to hydrogen is secure. So mostly those are the variables, but they're all fairly well in hand on these three opportunities that we're discussing.

是的，在這些情況下，我們所描述的這些機會根本不依賴美國大選。因此，這更多的是關於客戶最終確定資金的時間——最終確定計劃的時間，確保他們能夠安全地獲得氫氣。所以，這些大多是變量，但對於我們正在討論的這三個機會來說，它們都相當容易掌控。

Got it. And then on the slower market adoption, so let's say, just for -- let's just say theoretically, the 45V rules were finalized today, and it's much easier to qualify for the credit. How long do you think it would take, for your business to see that benefit roll through in orders and revenues? What does that lag look like?

知道了。然後，由於市場採用速度較慢，所以我們可以說，只是從理論上講，45V 規則今天已經最終確定，獲得信貸資格要容易得多。您認為您的企業需要多長時間才能在訂單和收入中看到效益？這種滯後是什麼樣的？

Yeah, so it's a good question. I think we can kind of look to the European hydrogen bank program as an illustrative example of the timing that might happen, because it's very similar. So in Europe, they have a $2.2 billion hydrogen bank program, and the first auction was announced in April of this year with seven projects, about EUR720 million funding. And those seven projects are in Spain, Portugal, Norway, and Finland.

是的，這是個好問題。我認為我們可以將歐洲氫能銀行計劃視為可能發生的時間的一個說明性例子，因為它們非常相似。歐洲有一個價值 22 億美元的氫能銀行計劃，第一次拍賣於今年 4 月宣布，共有 7 個項目，資金總額約 7.2 億歐元。這七個項目分別位於西班牙、葡萄牙、挪威和芬蘭。

They're supposed to be signed, by the end of November. But project developers are required to actually enter production within five years. Many of them are kind of indicating they're expecting production within three years, but the program allows for five years. So the way I would think about it is, if we had clarity in the US market, I would think about three to five years as a time line.

他們預計將於十一月底簽署協議。但專案開發商必須在五年內真正投入生產。他們中的許多人表示他們預計在三年內實現生產，但該計劃允許五年時間。所以我的想法是，如果我們對美國市場有清楚的認識，我會考慮以三到五年為一個時間線。

Before you'd actually see hydrogen production coming online, at scale for offtake opportunities. I think perhaps more importantly, though, is having the visibility, having the clarity on the policies, knowing that capital is going to be there to support hydrogen project development, and the build-out of hydrogen infrastructure. To me, that's enough for customers to then, start planning their next stage of deployment at larger scale.

在你真正看到氫氣生產上線之前，大規模地獲取氫氣的機會。不過，我認為也許更重要的是要有可見性，要對政策有清晰的認識，要知道資金將會支持氫能計畫的開發和氫能基礎設施的建設。對我來說，這足以讓客戶開始規劃下一階段的更大規模部署。

Because some of these deployments, they'll lead three, five years of planning. So, I don't think the -- I don't think you're going to see anything happen in the next two to three years, even if from a scale perspective that would be triggered by the passing of the regulations. And by the way, how those regulations get resolved is also important. So the current concepts of adding additionality and regionality and time matching, how those get resolved will not only impact perhaps the timing, but will also impact the scale of that timing through 2030.

因為對於其中一些部署，他們將進行三到五年的規劃。所以，我認為，即使從規模角度來看，法規的通過不會引發任何變化，但在未來兩到三年內你也不會看到任何變化。順便說一句，如何解決這些規定也很重要。因此，目前增加額外性、區域性和時間匹配的概念，如何解決這些問題不僅會影響時間，還會影響 2030 年的時間規模。

Got it. And then that's all super helpful color there. And then I guess, maybe that's a good segue into my question on the FID decision in Texas later this year. Do you have a -- can you give us a sense of timing? Is this a December, November, October decision and then, what indicators specifically are you and your team looking at, to help you make the decision one way or another?

知道了。這些都是非常有用的顏色。然後我想，也許這可以很好地引出我關於今年稍後德克薩斯州 FID 決定的問題。您能給我們一個時間概念嗎？這是 12 月、11 月或 10 月的決定嗎？然後，您和您的團隊具體關注哪些指標來幫助您做出決定？

Yeah. We certainly will be making that decision in Q4. There's some timing pressures from different stakeholders. So it's a complicated answer given that we're in sensitive discussions with different stakeholders at this time.

是的。我們肯定會在第四季做出這個決定。不同利害關係人帶來了一些時間壓力。鑑於我們目前正在與不同的利害關係人進行敏感討論，所以這是一個複雜的答案。

So all I can say, is we're really trying to make sure that we can have as much runway as possible before decisions on actually spending on facilities, and spending on equipment have to be triggered. And so, the timing between contract and actual capital deployment, and the off ramps are all things that we're considering.

所以我只能說，我們確實在努力確保在實際花費設施和設備費用之前，我們能夠擁有盡可能多的跑道。因此，合約和實際資本部署之間的時間以及退出管道都是我們正在考慮的事情。

Got it. Appreciate the color. Thank you.

知道了。欣賞色彩。謝謝。

Rob Brown, Lake Street Capital Markets.

羅布布朗 (Rob Brown)，Lake Street Capital Markets。

Just following up on the sort of the cross currents in the truck market. What are some of the things that sort of need to happen for you to see that market moving forward? Is it really the government support things? Or is it getting closer to the timeline and some of the clean truck stuff in California, just a sense of where the truck market at and how you see it playing out over the next total 18-months?

只是追蹤卡車市場的逆流。您認為需要發生哪些事情才能推動該市場向前發展？這真的是政府支持的事嗎？或者它越來越接近時間表和加州的一些清潔卡車產品，只是了解卡車市場的現狀以及您如何看待它在未來 18 個月內的發展？

Yes. Good question, Rob. I think -- there's one thing that is pretty clear to me is that there's a lot of end market interest in zero-emission solutions. So that -- there's been really no change there. I'd say the ESG pendulum has swung back a little bit, but most of the large fleet operators that we've been talking with, as end users are very committed to go to zero emission on their fleet.

是的。問得好，羅布。我認為——有一件事對我來說非常清楚，那就是終端市場對零排放解決方案有著濃厚的興趣。所以——那裡確實沒有發生任何變化。我想說 ESG 鐘擺已經擺回了一點，但我們與之交談過的大多數大型車隊營運商，作為最終用戶，都非常致力於實現車隊的零排放。

So there's no change there. I do think that the vehicle OEMs are struggling with investing across a different basket of technologies. So it's not just cleaner diesel fuel cells, in some cases, hydro internal combustion engine, in some cases and then, of course, battery electric, autonomy, and ADAS features. So there's a lot of investment being made. And so, allocating capital to the highest priority is, I think, a challenge for the OEMs.

所以那裡沒有變化。我確實認為汽車原始設備製造商在投資不同的技術組合時遇到了困難。因此，它不僅僅是更清潔的柴油燃料電池，在某些情況下，還有水力內燃機，當然還有電池電動、自主性和 ADAS 功能。因此，有大量的投資正在進行。因此，我認為，將資本分配給最高優先順序對於 OEM 來說是一個挑戰。

And given the time line for adoption of hydrogen, I think this is just sequenced a little bit later than some of the other investments. So there aren't a number of OEMs that have, fuel cell ready trucks at this time. We've talked about what we call our dual lane strategy where we're working with some of the large OEMs for long-term market adoption as well as these scrappier upfitters that are launching products earlier.

考慮到氫氣的應用時間表，我認為這只是比其他一些投資晚一點。因此，目前擁有燃料電池卡車的原始設備製造商並不多。我們討論了所謂的雙車道策略，即我們與一些大型原始設備製造商合作，以實現長期市場採用，同時也與一些較早推出產品的改裝商合作。

As an illustrative example, we have a partner called Wisdom Motor's that is developing fuel cell trucks, and buses for a number of markets outside of China. And they've seen quite a bit of progress in their product offering, as well as market engagement and demonstration projects, including in Australia, the Middle East and Europe. So, I would say those two pathways are running in parallel. And they're taking longer than we'd like. And we are trying to focus again on those, even with trucks on those applications where you can have centralized depot refueling, or point-to-point refueling. So you have the lower barrier to entry, on the hydrogen fueling infrastructure.

舉個例子，我們有一個名為智慧汽車的合作夥伴，該公司正在為中國以外的多個市場開發燃料電池卡車和巴士。他們的產品供應、市場參與和示範計畫都取得了相當大的進展，其中包括在澳洲、中東和歐洲。所以，我想說這兩條路徑是並行的。而且他們花的時間比我們期望的還要長。我們正試圖再次關注這些問題，即使是卡車，也可以在那些可以進行集中加油或點對點加油的應用上。因此，氫燃料基礎設施的進入門檻較低。

Okay. Thanks for the color. I'll turn it over.

好的。謝謝你的顏色。我把它翻過來。

Thanks, Rob.

謝謝，羅布。

Ameet Thakkar, BMO Capital Markets.

Ameet Thakkar，BMO 資本市場。

Hi, good morning, guys. Thanks for taking my question. Randy, I think you kind of kind of mentioned the 45V credit a couple of times here today. I was just wondering the Section 48E guidelines, for that were released at the end of May. They appeared pretty stringent to us, and I think to some of your fuel cell peers. Is that an investment credit that your US based customers have availed themselves, of much in the past? And kind of given that it goes in effect in 2025, do you anticipate any pull forward in demand in the US at least to kind of get ahead of that? Thanks.

大家好，早安。感謝您回答我的問題。蘭迪，我想你今天在這裡提到過幾次 45V 信用。我只是想知道第 48E 條指南，因為它是在 5 月底發布的。對我們來說，這些標準似乎相當嚴格，我想對你們的一些燃料電池同行來說也是如此。這是你們美國客戶過去利用的投資信貸嗎？並且考慮到該法案將於 2025 年生效，您是否預計美國的需求會有所提前，至少可以領先於該法案？謝謝。

Yeah. I haven't seen that where we've seen a pull forward, and I haven't seen that there's high reliance on this credit for our market applications. When you look at our market applications, the US market for us right now is very heavily dominated by the transit bus market, which isn't subject to that credit. You're typically talking about low-no and other federal funding to support transit operators.

是的。我還沒有看到我們看到的這種向前推進，也沒有看到我們的市場應用高度依賴這種信貸。從我們的市場應用來看，目前美國市場主要由公車市場主導，而公車市場並不享有此優惠。您通常會談論低額資金和其他聯邦資金來支持交通運輸業者。

Great. And then you talked about some of the -- I guess, kind of some of the challenges for adoption on the mobility front. I was just wondering, do you have any updates on kind of how your stationary power product, is kind of seeing maybe some more receptivity, kind of given some of the I guess, questions around power supply here going forward, whether it's on a backup basis, et cetera?

偉大的。然後您談到了一些——我想，這可以說是移動性方面採用過程中面臨的一些挑戰。我只是想知道，您是否有任何關於您的固定電源產品的最新消息，也許會有更多的接受度，考慮到我猜想的一些關於未來電源的問題，是否是備用電源等等？

Yes. It's a great question. And we're seeing basically two opportunities, I would say, in stationary power that are compelling. One is where you have either off-grid, or grids that aren't reliable and you're seeing a number of applications, things like filming applications or event applications, where standby power or backup power, primary power in any of those cases are required for, I'll call it, a relatively short period of time for an event.

是的。這是一個很好的問題。我想說，我們在固定電源領域看到了兩個引人注目的機會。一種情況是，要么是離網，要么是電網不可靠，你會看到許多應用，例如拍攝應用或活動應用，在這些應用中，備用電源或備用電源，即主要電源，都需要在相對較短的時間內為活動供電。

So, we're seeing that construction, for example, is another type of market. The one that to me is really quite interesting, of course, is the data center market. And here, we're not talking about primary power and renewable energy is the clear enabler for data centers in terms of time to market. But as you look past primary power, you start looking at backup power.

因此，我們看到建築業是另一種類型的市場。當然，對我來說真正有趣的是資料中心市場。在這裡，我們不討論主要電力，再生能源是資料中心在上市時間方面的明顯推動因素。但是，當您回顧主要電源時，您就會開始注意備用電源。

It's very clear that the customers or end users are looking for zero-emission solutions throughout their kind of critical infrastructure. And our announcement with our strategic technology partnership with Vertiv, I think there are kind of four important points there to highlight. One is this large and fast-growing market, not just for the primary power for data centers as a result of Gen AI and the compute power increase. But also for required backup power. The second is having a partner in that market, who is a market leader and we're very fortunate to be working with Vertiv, who is very well positioned in the data center market. The third is, really kind of validating the value proposition. And I think there are five key points on the value proposition here, as we look at fuel cells for backup power, the UPS architecture.

很明顯，客戶或最終用戶正在尋找其關鍵基礎設施中的零排放解決方案。我們宣布與 Vertiv 建立策略技術合作關係，我認為有四個要點需要強調。一是這個市場規模龐大且成長迅速，不僅僅是由於人工智慧和運算能力的提升而為資料中心提供的主要電力。而且還可用於所需的備用電源。第二是在該市場擁有一個合作夥伴，他是市場領導者，我們很幸運能夠與 Vertiv 合作，他們在資料中心市場佔據著非常有利的地位。第三，真正驗證價值主張。當我們研究備用電源的燃料電池和 UPS 架構時，我認為這裡的價值主張有五個關鍵點。

The first is that you're talking about having kind of single supply, very complex power infrastructure from one supplier. And so Vertiv is basically doing all the systems integration for all of the critical infrastructure for backup power. Second is not just zero emissions, but also low noise. And when you put those two together compared to diesel generators, you're seeing this is becoming increasingly important for permitting.

首先，您談論的是來自一個供應商的單一供應、非常複雜的電力基礎設施。因此，Vertiv 基本上負責所有關鍵基礎設施的備用電源系統整合。第二個不僅是零排放，而且噪音也低。當你將這兩者與柴油發電機進行比較時，你會發現這對許可變得越來越重要。

Third is kind of low maintenance. We think that hydrogen fuel cells will offer a cost advantage here in the long run against diesel generator backup solutions for maintenance. And then also extended backup, so having UPS for days, not for hours. And so, there with a fuel cell engine, your only limit really is your fuel storage capacity. And the last is really the ability to optimize your footprint to have megawatt scale applications in a tight configuration, which we can accomplish with fuel cells and you can't accomplish with batteries.

第三是維護成本低。我們認為，從長遠來看，氫燃料電池比柴油發電機備用維護解決方案具有成本優勢。然後還延長了備份時間，因此 UPS 可以使用幾天，而不是幾小時。因此，對於燃料電池引擎來說，唯一的限制實際上就是燃料儲存容量。最後，實際上是優化您的足跡，以便在緊密的配置中實現兆瓦級應用的能力，我們可以用燃料電池來實現，但您無法用電池來實現。

So, I think there's a lot of advantages that fuel cells can offer. We're validating these value propositions, and working to make sure we have the optimized solution for what I think could be a very game-changing market opportunity for Ballard, and with a very strong partner that's investing in this solution with Vertiv.

所以，我認為燃料電池有很多優點。我們正在驗證這些價值主張，並努力確保我們擁有優化的解決方案，我認為這對 Ballard 來說是一個非常具有改變遊戲規則的市場機會，並且我們有一個非常強大的合作夥伴與 Vertiv 一起投資於該解決方案。

Great. Thanks.

偉大的。謝謝。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Craig Irwin, ROTH Capital Partners

克雷格歐文（Craig Irwin），羅仕證券資本合夥公司

Hi. Good morning, and thanks for taking my question. So Randy, can you maybe comment a little bit about the pricing environment? Is there much that's changed in the last quarter or last year? Are customers actually price-sensitive? Or do they tend to move more on functionality and quality?

你好。早上好，感謝您回答我的問題。那麼 Randy，您能否對定價環境發表一些評論？上個季度或去年有很大變化嗎？顧客真的對價格敏感嗎？或者他們更傾向於注重功能和品質？

Yeah. Great question, Craig. I would say we haven't seen any change in the last quarter. Certainly, over the last year, we've certainly seen some downward pressure, but it's mostly where we're seeing customers who are looking at now larger scale programs and wanting to look at their cost points there. I still think in kind of the demonstration of earlier-stage projects, it's more about safety, reliability, durability, making sure that when they deploy their first box, or they deploy their first truck or their first train.

是的。很好的問題，克雷格。我想說我們在上個季度沒有看到任何變化。當然，在過去的一年裡，我們確實看到了一些下行壓力，但主要是我們看到客戶正在考慮更大規模的項目，並希望在那裡查看他們的成本點。我仍然認為，在早期專案的演示中，更多的是關於安全性、可靠性和耐用性，確保當他們部署第一個箱子、第一輛卡車或第一輛火車時。

They've got Ballard technology that they know, is going to deliver on promise. So, I don't think pricing is the e-driver in the smaller orders in the demonstration market, but as you move to higher volume orders as we saw earlier this year, for example, with Solaris for 1,000 fuel cell buses, pricing becomes very important.

他們擁有 Ballard 技術，他們知道，這項技術將會兌現承諾。因此，我認為定價並不是示範市場中小額訂單的驅動因素，但隨著訂單量轉向更大，例如我們今年早些時候看到的 Solaris 的 1,000 輛燃料電池公車，定價就變得非常重要。

Thank you for that. So my second question is about positive gross margins in the fourth quarter. Can you maybe unpack the risk there for us -- are we looking at the greatest risk maybe being around business mix? Or are there timing issues? Or is there any price sensitivity in the fourth quarter? I mean, what should we see as sort of a, the biggest risk to reaching positive gross margins this year?

謝謝你。我的第二個問題是關於第四季的正毛利率。您能否為我們分析其中的風險—我們是否認為最大的風險可能在於業務組合？或存在時間問題？或者第四季是否存在價格敏感度？我的意思是，我們應該把什麼視為今年實現正毛利率的最大風險？

Yeah. So maybe I'll just make a quick comment, Craig, and then turn it over to Paul. From my perspective, one of the most significant risks on a period of time, Q4 revenue is -- Q4 gross margin really relates to the revenue and you get sufficient revenue to cover your fixed overhead costs beyond contribution margin.

是的。所以也許我只是想快速評論一下，克雷格，然後把它交給保羅。從我的角度來看，一段時間內最大的風險之一是第四季度收入——第四季度毛利率實際上與收入相關，並且您獲得足夠的收入來支付貢獻利潤以外的固定間接成本。

And that's what we're forecasting for Q4. We still need additional orders in order to make that revenue happen for Q4. And Q4 could be 50%, 60% of our revenue for the full year. So there's some risk there. I'll let Paul add some additional color as well.

這就是我們對第四季的預測。我們仍然需要額外的訂單才能在第四季度實現這一收入。第四季的收入可能占到我們全年收入的 50% 到 60%。因此這其中存在一些風險。我會讓保羅也添加一些額外的顏色。

Yeah. No, I think that captures it. So it's -- we've got a good line of sight on what has been booked in the margins that we expect to earn on those and of course, our costs and are working towards that. There is still some that is unbooked. But have got good line of sight on where those bookings could come from. I suppose the other risk is to if there is additional deferrals by customers if they want to push orders or deliveries, I should say, into the next quarter.

是的。不，我想這就抓住了重點。因此，我們對預計獲得的利潤以及成本有了很好的了解，並且正在努力實現這一目標。還有一些尚未預訂。但對於這些預訂的來源，我們已經有了清晰的了解。我想另一個風險是，如果客戶想將訂單或交貨推遲到下個季度，他們可能會進一步推遲交貨。

We're not seeing a significant amount of that for Q4 at this point. But that certainly could be a risk as well. So as I mentioned also in the prior comments, and another question, we're not expecting the same level of provisioning on our inventory. So our inventory management now is much sharper. And as we build up inventory in anticipation of deliveries, we'll see inventories come down.

目前，我們還沒有看到第四季出現顯著的成長。但這當然也可能是一種風險。因此，正如我在之前的評論和另一個問題中提到的那樣，我們並不期望我們的庫存達到相同水平的供應。所以我們現在的庫存管理更加精細了。隨著我們為了準備交貨而增加庫存，我們會看到庫存下降。

And are quite confident that we won't have the same sort of write-offs, anywhere near the level that we had last year. We did a lot of that cleanup work, which will have a big contribution to gross margin as well. So at this point, we are looking forward to positive gross margins in the quarter, everything else equal.

我們非常有信心，我們不會出現同樣的註銷情況，遠不及去年的水平。我們做了很多清理工作，這也將對毛利率產生很大的貢獻。因此，就目前而言，在其他條件相同的情況下，我們預期本季的毛利率為正。

Okay. Just a point of clarification, though. Randy, you mentioned it could be as much as 50% to 60% of deliveries this year. Do you need the fourth quarter to have that level of revenue contribution? Or is positive gross margin achievable at lower levels?

好的。不過，這只是一個澄清點。蘭迪，你提到今年的交貨量可能會達到 50% 到 60%。您是否需要在第四季度實現這種水準的收入貢獻？或是在較低水準上是否能實現正毛利率？

Yeah. I think right now, when you look at Q1, Q2, Q3 revenue run rates, they're not sufficient at current contribution margins to drive to a gross margin with our fixed overhead cost structure. So you do need to have sufficient revenue. So I think that's one of the challenges that we have is still is that the fixed overhead cost structure has been invested in, we need to scale the revenue and get a more consistent revenue across the fourth quarters going forward.

是的。我認為現在，當你查看第一季、第二季、第三季的營收運行率時，它們不足以在目前的貢獻利潤率下以我們的固定間接成本結構實現毛利率。所以你確實需要有足夠的收入。所以我認為這仍然是我們面臨的挑戰之一，即固定間接成本結構已經投入，我們需要擴大收入並在未來第四季獲得更穩定的收入。

Fantastic. Thanks again for taking my questions.

極好的。再次感謝您回答我的問題。

Yeah, thanks, Craig.

是的，謝謝，克雷格。

This concludes the question-and-answer session. I would like to turn the conference back over for any closing remarks.

問答環節到此結束。我想將會議轉回以便發表結束語。

Yeah. Thank you for joining us today. Paul, Kate and I look forward to speaking with you next quarter.

是的。感謝您今天加入我們。保羅、凱特和我期待下個季度與您交談。

This brings to a close today's conference call. You may disconnect your lines. Thank you for participating, and have a pleasant day.

今天的電話會議到此結束。您可以斷開線路。感謝您的參與，祝您有個愉快的一天。