Altisource Portfolio Solutions S.A. (ASPS) 2024 Q4 法說會逐字稿

Good day, and thank you for standing by. Welcome to Altisource fourth-quarter 2024 earnings conference call. (Operator Instructions)

各位好，感謝您撥冗等候。歡迎參加 Altisource 2024 年第四季財報電話會議。(接線員指示)

Please be advised that today's conference is being recorded. I would now like to hand the conference over to your speaker today, Michelle Esterman, Chief Financial Officer. Please go ahead.

請注意，今天的會議將被錄音。現在我想把會議交給今天的發言人——財務長 Michelle Esterman。請開始。

Thank you, operator. We first want to remind you that the earnings release and quarterly slides are available on our website at www.altisource.com. These provide additional information investors may find useful.

謝謝，接線員。我們首先提醒各位，新聞稿與季度簡報投影片已公布於我們的網站 www.altisource.com。這些資料提供投資人可能覺得有用的補充資訊。

Our remarks today include forward-looking statements, which involve a number of risks and uncertainties that could cause actual results to differ. Please review the forward-looking statements sections in the company's earnings release and quarterly slides, as well as the risk factors contained in our 2023 Form 10-K and our 2024 Form 10-K once filed.

我們今天的發言包含前瞻性陳述，涉及多項風險與不確定性，可能導致實際結果有所差異。請查閱公司財報新聞稿與季度簡報投影片中的前瞻性陳述章節，以及我們 2023 年 Form 10-K 與 2024 年 Form 10-K（提交後）所載的風險因素。

These describe some factors that may lead to different results. We undertake no obligation to update statements, financial scenarios and projections previously provided or provided herein as a result of a change in circumstances, new information or future events. During this call, we will present both GAAP and non-GAAP financial measures. In our earnings release and quarterly slides, you will find additional disclosures regarding the non-GAAP measures. A reconciliation of GAAP to non-GAAP measures is included in the appendix to the quarterly slides.

上述文件描述了可能導致結果不同的一些因素。因情勢變化、新資訊或未來事件，我們不承擔更新先前提供或於本次提供之陳述、財務情境與預測的義務。在本次電話會議中，我們將同時呈現 GAAP 與非 GAAP 財務衡量指標。在我們的財報新聞稿與季度簡報投影片中，您將可找到關於非 GAAP 指標的額外揭露。GAAP 與非 GAAP 指標之調節表收錄於季度簡報投影片的附錄中。

Joining me for today's call is Bill Shepro, our Chairman and Chief Executive Officer. I'll now turn the call over to Bill.

今天與我一同參與電話會議的還有我們的董事長兼執行長 Bill Shepro。接下來我把電話會議交給 Bill。

Thanks, Michelle, and good morning. I'll begin on slide 4. We're pleased with our full year and fourth quarter 2024 performance as we continue to improve our financial results and win new business. In the face of serious market headwinds for both business segments, we had strong performance across the board.

謝謝你，Michelle，大家早安。我將從第 4 頁投影片開始。我們對 2024 全年與第四季的表現感到滿意，因為我們持續改善財務成果並贏得新業務。在兩大業務部門都面臨嚴峻市場逆風的情況下，我們整體表現依然強勁。

For the year, we grew total company service revenue by 10% and adjusted EBITDA by $18.3 million. In February 2025, we executed an exchange and maturity extension transaction with our lenders, significantly strengthening our balance sheet and reducing interest expense.

就全年而言，我們的公司整體服務營收成長 10%，調整後 EBITDA 增加 1,830 萬美元。2025 年 2 月，我們與貸方完成債務交換與到期日展延交易，顯著強化資產負債表並降低利息費用。

Turning to our financial performance on slide 5. For 2024, we generated $150 million of service revenue, a 10% increase over 2023. The service revenue increase was driven by growth in both business segments. 2024 total company adjusted EBITDA of $17.4 million represents an $18.3 million improvement over 2023. The improvement was largely from the business segment service revenue growth and higher adjusted EBITDA margins and from the corporate segment's lower adjusted EBITDA loss.

接著看第 5 頁投影片的財務表現。2024 年我們創造 1.5 億美元服務營收，較 2023 年成長 10%。服務營收的增加來自兩大業務部門的成長。2024 年公司整體調整後 EBITDA 為 1,740 萬美元，較 2023 年改善 1,830 萬美元。此改善主要來自業務部門服務營收成長與調整後 EBITDA 利潤率提高，以及公司部門調整後 EBITDA 虧損降低。

The business segments generated $44.6 million of adjusted EBITDA at 29.7% adjusted EBITDA margins, representing a $10.4 million improvement in adjusted EBITDA and a 462 basis points improvement in adjusted EBITDA margins compared to 2023.

業務部門合計產生 4,460 萬美元的調整後 EBITDA，調整後 EBITDA 利潤率為 29.7%，相較 2023 年調整後 EBITDA 改善 1,040 萬美元，調整後 EBITDA 利潤率提升 462 個基點。

The Corporate segment's adjusted EBITDA loss declined by $7.9 million or 22% to $27.2 million, primarily from efficiency initiatives. We also finished the year strong.

公司部門的調整後 EBITDA 虧損減少 790 萬美元（或 22%）至 2,720 萬美元，主要來自效率提升措施。我們也以強勁態勢結束全年。

As you can see on slide 6, fourth quarter service revenue of $38.4 million marked the highest level since the third quarter of 2021 and adjusted EBITDA of $4.7 million was the strongest quarter since the third quarter of 2020. Compared to the same period in 2023, fourth quarter 2024 service revenue grew by 19% and adjusted EBITDA grew by $4.5 million.

如第 6 頁投影片所示，第四季服務營收為 3,840 萬美元，創下自 2021 年第三季以來的最高水準；調整後 EBITDA 為 470 萬美元，為自 2020 年第三季以來最強的一季。與 2023 年同期相比，2024 年第四季服務營收成長 19%，調整後 EBITDA 增加 450 萬美元。

In February 2025, we completed an exchange and maturity extension transaction with our lenders, significantly strengthening our balance sheet and reducing interest expense. We also closed a $12.5 million super senior credit facility to fund the transaction costs and for general corporate purposes.

2025 年 2 月，我們與貸方完成債務交換與到期日展延交易，顯著強化資產負債表並降低利息費用。我們也完成一筆 1,250 萬美元的超優先（super senior）信貸融資，用於支付交易成本及一般公司用途。

Slides 7 through 9 provide additional information on these transactions. As a result of these transactions, we reduced our debt by over $60 million from $233 million to $172.5 million. Our new debt is comprised of $110 million term loan a $50 million noninterest-bearing exit fee, which is reduced on a pro rata basis with the repayment of the term loan and a $12.5 million super senior credit facility.

第 7 至第 9 頁投影片提供了關於這些交易的更多資訊。因這些交易，我們的債務由 2.33 億美元降至 1.725 億美元，減少超過 6,000 萬美元。我們的新債務包括：1.1 億美元定期貸款、5,000 萬美元不計息退出費（隨定期貸款償還按比例減少），以及 1,250 萬美元超優先信貸融資。

The interest rate on the $110 million term loan and the $12.5 million super senior credit facility is SOFR plus 650 basis points or 10.8% today. At today's SOFR rate, this represents $13.4 million in annual cash interest costs, which is an approximately $18 million per year reduction in cash and PIK interest compared to our prior facility. $158.6 million of the new term loan matures on April 30, 2030, and $1.4 million matures on January 15, 2029. The super senior credit facility matures on February 19, 2029.

1.1 億美元定期貸款與 1,250 萬美元超優先信貸融資的利率為 SOFR 加 650 個基點，亦即目前為 10.8%。以目前 SOFR 利率計算，年度現金利息成本為 1,340 萬美元，較我們先前的融資安排在現金與 PIK 利息方面每年約減少 1,800 萬美元。新定期貸款中，1.586 億美元於 2030 年 4 月 30 日到期，140 萬美元於 2029 年 1 月 15 日到期。超優先信貸融資於 2029 年 2 月 19 日到期。

In connection with these transactions, the lenders exchanged $72.9 million of debt for approximately 58.2 million Altisource common shares, representing 63.5% of the pro forma equity of the company. To provide for the potential for pre-transaction stakeholders to increase their ownership interest in the company as the share price increases. Altisource will be issuing warrants to pre-transaction shareholders, penny warrant holders, and restricted stock unit holders as of the February 14 record date.

就這些交易而言，貸方以 7,290 萬美元的債務交換取得約 5,820 萬股 Altisource 普通股，約占公司備考（pro forma）股權的 63.5%。為使交易前利害關係人能在股價上升時提高其在公司的持股比例。Altisource 將向截至 2 月 14 日股權登記日的交易前股東、便士認股權證持有人以及限制性股票單位持有人發行認股權證。

These warrants enable stakeholders to purchase approximately 114.5 million common shares of Altisource and an exercise price of $1.20 per share. This equates to 3.25 shares of Altisource common stock for each share or right to common stock held. 50% of the warrants expire on April 3, 2029, and require the exercise price to be paid in cash to the company. The other 50% of the warrants expire on April 30, 2032, and require a net settlement through the forfeiture of shares to the company for the exercise price.

這些認股權證使利害關係人得以購買約 1.145 億股 Altisource 普通股，行使價為每股 1.20 美元。這相當於每持有 1 股普通股或享有取得普通股之權利者，可獲得 3.25 股 Altisource 普通股。50% 的認股權證於 2029 年 4 月 3 日到期，且行使價須以現金支付給公司。其餘 50% 的認股權證於 2032 年 4 月 30 日到期，並要求以淨額交割方式，透過向公司交付（沒收）股份以抵付行使價。

We believe the transactions put the company on a much stronger financial footing and should be accretive to pre-transaction shareholders in the medium to long term. The transactions also provide us with additional time to execute our turnaround plan by removing the April 2025 refinancing risk, improving Altisource's balance sheet, and leverage ratios and eliminating a major distraction for Altisource's team, shareholders, and customers.

我們相信，這些交易使公司具備更強健的財務基礎，並且在中長期應可為交易前股東帶來增益。這些交易亦透過消除 2025 年 4 月的再融資風險、改善 Altisource 的資產負債表與槓桿比率，並排除對 Altisource 團隊、股東與客戶的一項重大干擾，為我們執行轉型計畫爭取了更多時間。

Moving to slide 10 and our countercyclical Service and Real Estate segment. For 2024, service revenue of $120 million was 11% higher than 2023 from the launch and growth of our renovation business and sales wins despite a market-wide 6% decline in foreclosure starts and 14% decline in foreclosure sales.

接著看第 10 頁投影片，以及我們具逆週期特性的服務與不動產事業部門。2024 年，服務營收為 1.20 億美元，較 2023 年成長 11%，主要來自我們整修業務的推出與成長以及銷售勝出，儘管全市場止贖啟動件數下滑 6%、止贖出售下滑 14%。

2024 adjusted EBITDA of $42.1 million for the segment was $5 million, or 14% higher than 2023. Adjusted EBITDA margins improved to 35.1% from 34.4%. Adjusted EBITDA growth and margin improvement reflects service revenue growth and cost reduction and efficiency initiatives, partially offset by revenue mix.

該部門 2024 年調整後 EBITDA 為 4,210 萬美元，較 2023 年增加 500 萬美元（或 14%）。調整後 EBITDA 利潤率由 34.4% 提升至 35.1%。調整後 EBITDA 成長與利潤率改善反映服務營收成長以及成本降低與效率提升措施，部分被營收組合所抵銷。

Slide 11 provides a summary of our Service and Real Estate sales wins and pipeline. For the year, we won new business that we estimate will generate $25.8 million in annual service revenue on a stabilized basis over the next couple of years. We had significant sales wins in our trustee, Hubzu and Granite businesses, that should help contribute to 2025 service revenue growth.

第 11 頁投影片提供我們服務與不動產銷售勝出與管線的摘要。全年我們贏得的新業務，估計在未來幾年達到穩定水準後，可帶來每年 2,580 萬美元的服務營收。我們在受託人（trustee）、Hubzu 與 Granite 業務方面取得顯著銷售勝出，應有助於推動 2025 年服務營收成長。

We ended the year with a Servicer and Real Estate segment total weighted average sales pipeline of $29.4 million of annual service revenue on a stabilized basis, most of which we anticipate will impact 2026 and beyond.

年底時，服務與不動產事業部門的加權平均銷售管線總額為每年 2,940 萬美元的服務營收（以穩定水準計），其中大部分我們預期將在 2026 年及之後反映。

Moving to our origination segment on slide 12. 2024 service revenue of $30.4 million was 6% higher than 2023, and adjusted EBITDA improved by $5.4 million to $2.5 million. This primarily reflects revenue growth in the Lenders One business from customer wins from our newer solutions, price increases, and market share gains in our Trelix loan fulfillment business, partially offset by revenue declines in our other origination businesses that were impacted to a greater degree by lower purchase origination volumes.

接著看第 12 頁投影片的放款起源（origination）事業部門。2024 年服務營收為 3,040 萬美元，較 2023 年成長 6%，調整後 EBITDA 增加 540 萬美元至 250 萬美元。這主要反映 Lenders One 業務的營收成長，來自我們較新解決方案帶來的客戶勝出、價格上調，以及我們 Trelix 貸款履約（loan fulfillment）業務的市占提升；部分被其他起源業務的營收下滑所抵銷，這些業務因購屋貸款起源量較低而受到更大影響。

Adjusted EBITDA improved from revenue growth and stronger margins for certain business units from efficiency initiatives. For 2024, the Originations segment's gross profit, gross profit margins, adjusted EBITDA, and adjusted EBITDA margins all improved relative to 2023.

調整後 EBITDA 的改善來自營收成長，以及部分事業單位因效率措施而帶來的更高利潤率。2024 年，起源事業部門的毛利、毛利率、調整後 EBITDA 與調整後 EBITDA 利潤率皆較 2023 年改善。

Slide 13 provides a summary of our origination segment sales wins and pipeline. During a difficult origination market, our focus on helping our Lenders One members save money and better compete drove substantial interest in our solutions. On an annualized, stabilized basis, we won an estimated $12.6 million in new business for the year. Our weighted average sales pipeline at the end of 2024 was $13.2 million, with $2.4 million of it in the contracting stage.

第 13 頁投影片提供我們起源事業部門銷售勝出與管線的摘要。在艱困的起源市場中，我們專注於協助 Lenders One 會員節省成本並提升競爭力，帶動市場對我們解決方案的高度興趣。以年化、穩定水準計，全年我們贏得估計 1,260 萬美元的新業務。截至 2024 年底，我們的加權平均銷售管線為 1,320 萬美元，其中 240 萬美元處於簽約階段。

Turning to our Corporate segment on slide 14. We continue to bring down our operating costs. 2024 corporate adjusted EBITDA loss of $27.2 million was $7.9 million, or 22% better than 2023. The lower adjusted EBITDA loss reflects our cost savings and efficiency initiatives.

接著看第 14 頁投影片的公司（Corporate）部門。我們持續降低營運成本。2024 年公司部門調整後 EBITDA 虧損為 2,720 萬美元，較 2023 年改善 790 萬美元（或 22%）。調整後 EBITDA 虧損縮小反映我們的節省成本與效率提升措施。

Moving to slide 15. The business environment over the last few years has been very difficult for Altisource. The default market was virtually shut down in 2020 and has still not recovered. 2024 foreclosure starts were 35% lower than 2019 levels and foreclosure sales were 53% lower than 2019 levels. Driven by low delinquency rates and home price appreciation, 2024 foreclosure starts were also 6% lower than 2023, and foreclosure sales were 14% lower than 2023.

接著看第 15 頁投影片。過去幾年 Altisource 的經營環境非常艱困。違約市場在 2020 年幾乎停擺，至今仍未復甦。2024 年止贖啟動件數較 2019 年水準低 35%，止贖出售較 2019 年水準低 53%。在低逾期率與房價上漲的帶動下，2024 年止贖啟動亦較 2023 年低 6%，止贖出售較 2023 年低 14%。

The origination market has also had its challenges. 2024 mortgage origination volume was 35% lower than 2019 levels driven by higher interest rates. And while 2024 origination volume was higher than '23, this was driven entirely by refinance activity with purchase volume down for the year.

起源市場同樣面臨挑戰。受利率上升影響，2024 年房貸起源量較 2019 年水準低 35%。此外，雖然 2024 年起源量高於 2023 年，但完全是由再融資活動所帶動，全年購屋量則下滑。

Despite this difficult default in origination market, we've won meaningful new business and implemented efficiency initiatives that helped drive 10% service revenue growth and an $18.3 million improvement in adjusted EBITDA in 2024 compared to 2023. Since 2021, we have grown adjusted EBITDA by almost $50 million.

儘管違約與起源市場如此艱困，我們仍贏得具意義的新業務並推動效率措施，促使 2024 年服務營收較 2023 年成長 10%，調整後 EBITDA 改善 1,830 萬美元。自 2021 年以來，我們的調整後 EBITDA 已增加近 5,000 萬美元。

Turning to slide 16 and our outlook for 2025. We believe our sales wins, improved margins and corporate cost structure position us for another year of service revenue and adjusted EBITDA growth and for the first time since 2019, positive operating cash flow. Based upon our current business and market expectations, which assumes roughly flat delinquency rates and 13% growth in origination volume, we are forecasting service revenue of $165 million to $185 million and adjusted EBITDA of $18 million to $23 million.

接著看第 16 頁投影片以及我們對 2025 年的展望。我們相信，我們的銷售勝出、改善的利潤率與公司成本結構，使我們有條件在新的一年再度實現服務營收與調整後 EBITDA 成長，並且自 2019 年以來首次達成正向營運現金流。根據我們目前對業務與市場的預期（假設逾期率大致持平且起源量成長 13%），我們預測服務營收為 1.65 億至 1.85 億美元，調整後 EBITDA 為 1,800 萬至 2,300 萬美元。

At the midpoint, this represents 16% annual service revenue growth and 18% adjusted EBITDA growth over 2024. We anticipate service revenue growth will be driven by the continued ramping of sales wins, converting pipeline opportunities to sales wins, price increases for certain services, and growth of newer Lenders One solutions.

以中位數計，這代表相較 2024 年服務營收年增 16%，調整後 EBITDA 成長 18%。我們預期服務營收成長將由持續放量的銷售勝出、將管線機會轉化為銷售勝出、部分服務的價格上調，以及較新 Lenders One 解決方案的成長所帶動。

We anticipate the adjusted EBITDA improvement will be driven by service revenue growth and higher business unit margins for many businesses, primarily from the full year benefit of 2024 efficiency initiatives and scale, partially offset by product mix and a modest increase in corporate operating costs due to certain nonrecurring benefits in 2024.

我們預期調整後 EBITDA 的改善將由服務營收成長與多數業務較高的事業單位利潤率所帶動，主要來自 2024 年效率措施與規模效益的全年貢獻；部分被產品組合影響以及公司營運成本的小幅增加所抵銷，該增加係因 2024 年若干一次性利益不再發生。

From a cash flow perspective, we anticipate generating positive operating cash flow for the year.

就現金流角度而言，我們預期全年將產生正向的營運現金流。

In closing, we believe we are positioned to diversify our revenue base and ramp business we have won while maintaining cost discipline and significantly reducing corporate interest expense to support longer-term growth we are focusing on accelerating the growth of certain of our businesses that we believe have tailwinds. When the default market returns to normal, we should also benefit from stronger revenue, and adjusted EBITDA growth in our largest and most profitable businesses.

最後，我們相信我們已具備條件在維持成本紀律的同時，分散我們的營收基礎並加速推進我們已贏得的業務，同時大幅降低公司利息費用，以支持我們所聚焦的長期成長；我們正專注於加速我們認為具備順風因素的部分業務成長。當違約市場回歸正常時，我們也應可受惠於更強勁的營收，以及我們最大且最具獲利能力業務的調整後 EBITDA 成長。

I'll now open up the call for questions. Operator?

我現在開放提問。接線員？

(Operator Instructions) Ramin Kamali, CSAM.

(接線員指示) Ramin Kamali，CSAM。

Hi, good morning. Thank you for the for the presentation and congrats on the results. Can you just comment on kind of some of the nature of some of the wins you've had across, I guess, originations and servicing, but also more importantly, kind of talk about kind of the nature of the conversations you're having with some of these potential opportunities pro -- or post restructuring or post transaction? Has that changed at all?

嗨，早安。感謝簡報，也恭喜你們的成果。你能否評論一下你們在我想是承作（originations）與服務（servicing）方面所取得的一些勝利的性質；但更重要的是，談談你們與這些潛在機會在重整前後或交易前後的對話性質？這方面有任何改變嗎？

Great. Thanks, Ramin. Yes, we had a couple of initiatives last year focused primarily on our construction renovation business, our trustee business and what was the third -- well, in the construction -- I'm sorry, and our Lenders One origination business.

很好。謝謝你，Ramin。是的，我們去年有幾項計畫，主要聚焦在我們的建築翻新業務、我們的受託人（trustee）業務，還有第三個——嗯，在建築——抱歉，還有我們的 Lenders One 承作業務。

In the Construction business and in the Lenders One business, we launched two new products, one just under two years ago and on a year ago, and I'm proud to say that both of those products, the credit product, and the renovation business each did north of $1 million a month, I think it was in February of this quarter, of this year. And so we've launched basically from scratch to $1 million a month in each of those businesses through those initiatives last year, and we're quite proud of those results.

在建築業務與 Lenders One 業務中，我們推出了兩項新產品，一項是在將近兩年前推出，另一項是在一年前推出；我很自豪地說，這兩項產品——信用產品與翻新業務——在今年本季的二月，各自每月都做到超過 100 萬美元，我想是這樣。因此，透過去年這些計畫，我們基本上從零起步，把這兩項業務各自做到每月 100 萬美元，我們對這些成果感到相當自豪。

As we look to 2025, there are several areas we're focused on. One is, I think we could take those two businesses, the renovation business, and the origination business. We've got the opportunity to more than double, I think the monthly revenue of those businesses by the end of this year. We've got a very exciting pipeline in both those businesses and certainly are completing the transaction with our lenders has helped in the conversation we're having with our customers.

展望 2025 年，我們聚焦在幾個領域。其中之一是，我認為我們可以把這兩項業務——翻新業務與承作業務——在今年年底前，讓這些業務的月營收有機會增加到超過兩倍。我們在這兩項業務都有非常令人振奮的案源管線，而與放款人完成這筆交易，確實也有助於我們與客戶的對話。

We're also looking at expanding our Hubzu business. Historically, Hubzu has primarily been focused on managing foreclosure auctions and REO auctions. We've recently done a soft launch of a commercial auction platform inside of Hubzu, and we're also looking at selling non-distressed residential auctions on that platform.

我們也在評估擴展 Hubzu 業務。過去 Hubzu 主要聚焦於管理法拍（foreclosure）拍賣與 REO 拍賣。我們最近已在 Hubzu 內部對商用拍賣平台進行小規模上線（soft launch），同時也在評估在該平台上銷售非困境（non-distressed）的住宅拍賣。

So more to come as we develop those two products. We're continuing to grow our Granite renovation -- sorry, construction risk management business. We had some success in growing the revenue and earnings in that business last year.

因此，隨著我們開發這兩項產品，後續會有更多進展。我們也持續成長我們的 Granite 翻新——抱歉，是建築風險管理業務。去年我們在該業務的營收與獲利成長方面取得一些成果。

And we see some tailwinds with some customer wins this year, again, I think, helped by the transaction. And we're also continuing to build out that renovation business I just discussed by adding additional customers.

而我們看到今年因一些客戶得標而帶來的順風因素，我認為同樣也受惠於這筆交易。此外，我們也持續透過新增客戶來擴建我剛才提到的翻新業務。

And then finally, on Lenders One, we're going to continue to grow the new product. We launched the credit product, and we're looking to essentially launch and relaunch and grow our homeowners insurance product this year. So we've got four or five initiatives that we think will contribute to our growth this year and help us diversify our customer base. We're pretty excited about those.

最後，在 Lenders One 方面，我們將持續擴大新產品。我們已推出信用產品，今年也希望本質上推出、重新推出並成長我們的屋主保險產品。因此，我們有四到五項我們認為將在今年貢獻成長、並協助我們分散客戶基礎的計畫。我們對此相當興奮。

I guess maybe one more question. Can you -- I guess we're almost done with Q1. Can you give us some color on how things are trending thus far in 2025

我想也許再問一個問題。你能否——我想我們第一季快結束了。能否提供一些 2025 年迄今為止的趨勢色彩？

Yes, sure. We've started the year very strong from our perspective. We had a very good -- we've seen our unaudited, of course, January revenue and EBITDA results, which were quite strong. Revenue was in line with our plan. EBITDA was better than our plan.

好的，當然。就我們的觀點而言，今年開局非常強勁。我們已看到（當然是未經審計的）一月營收與 EBITDA 結果，表現相當強。營收符合我們的計畫。EBITDA 優於我們的計畫。

February revenue also was right on target. We haven't seen our February EBITDA yet, but I believe it's going to perform well also.

二月營收也完全達標。我們尚未看到二月的 EBITDA，但我相信表現也會很好。

So I think we're off to a really good start at or ahead of plan at plan on revenue and slightly ahead from an adjusted EBITDA perspective.

因此，我認為我們有一個非常好的開始：營收達到或優於計畫；從調整後 EBITDA 的角度來看，則略微領先。

(Operator Instructions) Robert Heimowitz, Concise Capital.

(接線員指示) Robert Heimowitz，Concise Capital。

Hey, guys. Congratulations on the transaction. I just want to start by asking about foreclosure starts seem to be picking up. And so I'm just curious when you think this starts to get reflected in the results, what's the lag time here?

嘿，各位。恭喜完成這筆交易。我想先問一下，法拍啟動（foreclosure starts）似乎正在回升。所以我很好奇，你們認為這會在何時反映到業績上？這裡的落後時間（lag time）大概多久？

Yes. It's kind of interesting, and we've not done a great job, I would say, forecasting what's going to happen with foreclosure starts. And so in our plan for this year, we're assuming that the market -- the delinquency rates remain roughly flat. That said, I do think there is -- the market is wobbling a little bit.

是的。這有點有趣，而我會說，我們在預測法拍啟動會如何發展方面做得不是很好。因此，在我們今年的計畫中，我們假設市場——逾期率大致維持持平。話雖如此，我確實認為市場有——有點搖擺。

We ended the year from a delinquency rate perspective, both 30-plus, and I think, 90-plus ahead of where we were in the middle of the year, but just slightly ahead of where we were at the end of '23. And so it hasn't changed that much.

從逾期率角度來看，我們在年底時，無論是 30 天以上，還是我想是 90 天以上，都高於年中水準，但僅略高於 2023 年底的水準。因此變化並不大。

And then as you saw in our prepared remarks, foreclosure starts, and sales were also down in '24 compared to '23. So from a modeling and forecasting perspective, at Altisource, we're being very conservative and assuming it remains roughly the same. I can tell you what we're hearing anecdotally from our clients is that they're getting ready and expecting an increase in foreclosure starts.

另外，如同你們在我們事先準備的講稿中所看到的，2024 年的法拍啟動與拍賣量也較 2023 年下降。因此，從 Altisource 的建模與預測角度來看，我們非常保守，假設其大致維持相同。我可以告訴你們，我們從客戶那裡聽到的軼事是，他們正在做準備並預期法拍啟動將增加。

The VA moratorium on foreclosures ended in -- at the end of December. So we got a bit of a sort of one time set of referrals in January and February related to VA loans, and that will then start to normalize on a go-forward basis.

VA 對止贖的暫緩令已於——12 月底到期結束。因此，我們在 1 月與 2 月收到了一些與 VA 貸款相關、帶有一次性特徵的轉介案件，之後在未來將開始回歸常態。

And our clients are telling us that they're expecting delinquency rates will start to pick up. We're monitoring unemployment, that's usually a pretty good leading indicator. If you look at other credit assets like auto loans, credit card delinquencies, things like that, the delinquency rates are continuing to rise in those areas.

而我們的客戶告訴我們，他們預期逾期率將開始上升。我們正在監測失業率，那通常是一個相當不錯的領先指標。如果你看其他信貸資產，例如汽車貸款、信用卡逾期等，那些領域的逾期率仍在持續攀升。

At some point, it's likely all translate into mortgage delinquencies as well, but we haven't seen it yet.

在某個時間點，這些很可能也會反映到房貸逾期上，但我們目前還沒看到。

That's helpful. And you mentioned the VA moratorium. Are there other agencies that are, for lack of a better term, implementing unfriendly creditor type of policies that you see those types of policies coming to an end like the VA moratorium that might impact the business as well.

這很有幫助。你提到了 VA 的暫緩令。是否還有其他機構——姑且這麼說——正在推行對債權人不太友善的政策，而你認為這類政策也會像 VA 暫緩令一樣走向結束，進而也可能影響業務？

I mean the big one is FHA. When interest rates were going down, they had a streamlined modification program that allowed delinquent borrowers to essentially refi into a new loan with a lower interest rate, if they could qualify for mortgage with that lower interest rate.

我的意思是，最大的就是 FHA。當利率下行時，他們有一個簡化修改方案（streamlined modification program），讓逾期借款人基本上可以再融資成一筆利率更低的新貸款，只要他們能以該較低利率的條件符合房貸資格。

And then when rates were going up, no one could qualify for a streamline refi anymore. And so the government initiated a new program where you could wave don't hold me to the exact number, but I think it's 25% or you can defer 25% of the principal to the end of the loan. And if you could qualify for those payments, you could essentially mod that loan.

但當利率上升時，就沒有人還能符合簡化再融資（streamline refi）的資格了。於是政府推出了一個新方案，你可以——不要要求我一定要精確數字——但我想是 25%，也就是你可以把 25% 的本金延後到貸款期末再付。如果你能負擔並符合那些還款條件，你基本上就可以對那筆貸款做修改（mod）。

What we're seeing though is that even after going through that process, those borrowers are continuing to default on those loans. And in the fourth quarter, we actually saw a pretty good sized uptick in our FHA related revenue and a slight decline in our non-FHA related revenue and the decline in the non-FHA revenue was a combination of two things.

不過我們看到的是，即使走完那個流程，這些借款人仍持續在那些貸款上違約。而在第四季，我們其實看到與 FHA 相關的營收有相當幅度的上升，同時非 FHA 相關營收略有下滑；非 FHA 營收的下滑是兩個因素共同造成的。

The revenue per delinquent loan went down a little bit due to typical seasonality. That was partially offset, however, because the number of delinquent loans we are managing went up a little bit on the non-GSE. And so, I think we're starting to see that FHA market open up a bit, and there's only so many times these borrowers can attempt to modify their loan and then go delinquent again before they're going to ultimately go through the whole process.

每筆逾期貸款的收入因典型季節性而小幅下降。不過，這部分被部分抵銷，因為我們在非 GSE 領域所管理的逾期貸款數量小幅增加。因此，我認為我們開始看到 FHA 市場有些開放；而這些借款人能嘗試修改貸款、然後又再次逾期的次數終究有限，在那之前他們最終會走完整個流程。

And I suspect that's going to start to happen more this year under the new administration compared to the last.

我猜在新政府之下，相較於上一屆，今年這種情況會更常發生。

And for Q1, it's not your EBITDA guide, but you guys should see a sizable gain that should add some solid equity or reduce the negative equity position on the balance sheet, correct?

那就第一季而言，這不是你們的 EBITDA 指引，但你們應該會看到一筆可觀的收益，能增加一些實質股東權益或降低資產負債表上的負股東權益部位，對嗎？

I'll let Michelle get into sort of how it translates into the income statement and balance sheet. But in terms of -- from an EBITDA perspective, I think we did $4.7 million of EBITDA in the fourth quarter. I think in the fourth quarter, look we still haven't closed out our books for February, and we're still have March. But I think we should be in that range or better in the first quarter than the fourth quarter. So we should, from a revenue perspective, I think, see a very strong revenue quarter.

我讓 Michelle 來說明它如何反映在損益表與資產負債表上。但就——從 EBITDA 的角度來看，我想我們第四季做了 470 萬美元的 EBITDA。我想第四季——你看，我們 2 月的帳還沒結完，3 月也還在進行中。但我認為第一季應該會落在那個區間或更好，優於第四季。所以我認為從營收角度，我們第一季應該會是一個非常強勁的營收季度。

We'll probably see a similar, probably, if not better, results from an EBITDA perspective in which which case, both will be a better quarter than each quarter last year. So we're off to a very strong start. We're happy with our performance out of the gate this year.

我們可能會看到類似、甚至更好的 EBITDA 表現；在那種情況下，兩者都會比去年每一季更好。所以我們今年開局非常強勁。我們對今年一開始的表現感到滿意。

From a book perspective, remember, we had the prior debt through February 19. So you're going to see higher interest expense in the first quarter of the year than you will for the remaining quarters of '25.

從帳面角度來看，請記得我們先前的債務一直到 2 月 19 日。因此，你會看到今年第一季的利息費用會高於 2025 年其餘各季。

Okay. But you guys had a lot of, let's say, PIK interest in Q4 that you're never going to have to actually pay off. So you should analyze some sort of gain there, right?

好的。但你們在第四季有很多——比如說——PIK 利息，你們其實永遠不需要真的去償還。所以你們應該能在那裡認列某種收益，對吧？

Yes. No, I think you're going to see interest expense we're still finalizing all the accounting related to the transaction. But putting that aside interest expense is going to be coming down, as we mentioned on the call from something like $32 million a year to $13.4 million a year on an annualized basis.

是的。不，我想你會看到利息費用——我們仍在敲定與該交易相關的所有會計處理。但先不談那個，正如我們在電話會議中提到的，利息費用將會下降，年化基礎上大約會從每年 3,200 萬美元降到每年 1,340 萬美元。

(Operator Instructions) At this time, I would now like to turn the conference back over to Bill Shepro for closing remarks.

(接線員指示) 此時，我想把電話會議交回給 Bill Shepro 作結語。

Thanks, operator. We're pleased with our performance last year and believe we're off to a good start in 2025. We appreciate all your support. We'll talk to you soon. Thank you.

謝謝，接線員。我們對去年表現感到滿意，並相信我們在 2025 年有個良好的開端。感謝各位的支持。我們很快再聊。謝謝。

This concludes today's conference call. Thank you for participating. You may now disconnect.

今天的電話會議到此結束。感謝各位參與。您現在可以掛線。