Tim SA (TIMB) 2024 Q3 法說會逐字稿

Good morning ladies and gentlemen and welcome to TIM SA 2024 third quarter results video conference call.

早安，女士們、先生們，歡迎參加 TIM SA 2024 年第三季業績視訊電話會議。

We would like to inform you that this event is being recorded and all participants will be in listen-only mode during the company’s presentation.

我們謹通知您，該活動正在錄製中，所有參與者在公司演示期間都將處於僅聽模式。

There will be a replay for this call on the company's website.

該公司網站上將重播本次電話會議。

(Operator Instructions)

（操作員說明）

Hello, everyone and welcome to TIM SA's earnings conference for the third quarter of 2024.

大家好，歡迎參加 TIM SA 2024 年第三季財報會議。

Thank you for joining us.

感謝您加入我們。

I'm Vincente Ferreira, Head of Investor Relations.

我是投資者關係主管 Vincente Ferreira。

This video shares the key highlights of our recent performance and the strategic initiatives we are implementing to continue our sustainable cash flow growth afterward, we will host a live Q&A session with our CEO, Alberto Griselli; and our CFO, Andrea Viegas.

這部影片分享了我們近期業績的主要亮點以及我們為繼續可持續現金流增長而正在實施的戰略舉措，之後我們將與我們的首席執行官阿爾貝托·格里塞利(Alberto Griselli) 舉行現場問答環節；以及我們的財務長 Andrea Viegas。

Before we discuss our results, I remind you that management may make forward-looking statements and this presentation may contain them.

在我們討論我們的結果之前，我提醒您，管理階層可能會做出前瞻性陳述，本簡報可能包含這些陳述。

Please refer to the disclaimer on the screen also available on our earnings materials and Investor Relations website.

請參閱我們的收益資料和投資者關係網站上也提供的螢幕上的免責聲明。

With that, let's move to our results.

接下來，讓我們看看我們的結果。

Hello, everyone.

大家好。

I'm Alberto Griselli, CEO of TIM Brazil.

我是阿爾貝托·格里塞利 (Alberto Griselli)，TIM 巴西公司執行長。

Once again, we delivered solid financial and operational results in the quarter marked by cash flow generation.

我們在本季度再次實現了以現金流生成為標誌的穩健的財務和營運業績。

But before we discuss our results in detail, let me introduce a relevant part of our effort to improve our brand perception.

但在我們詳細討論我們的結果之前，讓我先介紹一下我們為提高品牌認知度所做的努力的相關部分。

In September this year, the Rock in Rio fast develop took place.

今年9月，《裡約搖滾》快速展開。

This is the biggest music festival in Latin America, lasting seven days and attended by more than 700,000 people.

這是拉丁美洲最大的音樂節，為期7天，有超過70萬人參加。

TIM is a master sponsor which reinforces a connection between the company and music that dates back to 2003.

TIM 是主要贊助商，自 2003 年起加強了公司與音樂之間的聯繫。

Since then, we have kept this connection but now we are expanding this as a platform to reshape clients' perceptions of our brand.

從那時起，我們一直保持著這種聯繫，但現在我們正在將其擴展為一個平台，以重塑客戶對我們品牌的看法。

Mobile network operates in extreme conditions during this type of event.

在此類事件期間，行動網路在極端條件下運作。

So we use the music festival to showcase our 5G network strength and reliability, while innovating in how we interact with our clients and prospects.

因此，我們利用音樂節來展示我們的 5G 網路實力和可靠性，同時創新我們與客戶和潛在客戶的互動方式。

This year's results were remarkable.

今年的成果非常顯著。

TIM was the number one brand mentioned with enormous favorability and color cell brand exposure.

TIM 是排名第一的品牌，擁有極高的好感度和 Color Cell 品牌曝光。

We expect that investments like this will help us close the gap in brand perception and clear the way for future growth.

我們預計這樣的投資將幫助我們縮小品牌認知度的差距，並為未來的成長掃清道路。

Back to our financial results.

回到我們的財務表現。

In the third quarter, we achieved a 6.1% growth in service revenues, outpacing inflation and maintaining the sustainability of our revenue dynamics in face of already expected tougher second half of the year.

第三季度，我們的服務收入實現了 6.1% 的成長，超過了通膨率，並在預計下半年會更加艱難的情況下保持了收入動態的可持續性。

Our revenues were driven mainly by mobile services which expanded by 6.3% compared to third quarter '23.

我們的收入主要由行動服務推動，與 2023 年第三季相比成長了 6.3%。

Mobile ARPU is an important lever, rising close to 5%, while post-paid customer base improved with migration and a new record low churn at 0.7%.

行動 ARPU 是一個重要的槓桿，成長了近 5%，而後付費客戶群則隨著遷移而改善，流失率創下新低 0.7%。

Our EBITDA grew by 7.5% during the same period with another quarter of margin expansion.

同期，我們的 EBITDA 成長了 7.5%，利潤率又成長了一個季度。

After third quarter 2024, we have 13 quarters of expanding margins, confirming our ability to push the boundaries of efficiency.

2024 年第三季之後，我們的利潤率將連續 13 個季度擴大，這證實了我們突破效率界限的能力。

Our proxy for operating cash flow reached a record high for the third quarter, growing above 20% year-over-year.

第三季我們的營運現金流代理創下歷史新高，年增超過 20%。

As a percentage of revenues, we reached 25% in quarter three and more than 21% in the first nine months of 2024.

佔營收的百分比在第三季達到 25%，2024 年前 9 個月超過 21%。

We have the highest cash conversion in the industry.

我們擁有業界最高的現金轉換率。

These solid financial results are accompanied by innovation and our offers, consistent infrastructure development and improvements in our services.

這些穩健的財務表現伴隨著創新和我們的產品、持續的基礎設施開發以及我們服務的改進。

We continue to develop the 3B content.

我們繼續開發3B內容。

So to build the best offers, we focus on the best value proposition.

因此，為了打造最佳報價，我們專注於最佳價值主張。

As we promised last quarter, we launched the best control plans in the market.

正如我們上季度所承諾的那樣，我們推出了市場上最好的控制計劃。

This comes as a part of a full revision of our post-paid portfolio establishing new price points to facilitate upselling while reviewing benefits and smoothing customer journey.

這是我們後付費產品組合全面修訂的一部分，建立了新的價格點，以促進追加銷售，同時審查利益並平滑客戶旅程。

This proactive approach to managing our customer base is helping to increase loyalty and improve churn.

這種主動管理客戶群的方法有助於提高忠誠度並減少客戶流失。

Our post-paid customer base is sustaining a solid pace, growing close to 8% year-on-year and 2% quarterly.

我們的後付費客戶群保持著穩健的步伐，年成長接近 8%，季度成長接近 2%。

In prepaid, we launched a new proposition with adjustment to our go-to-market aiming to improve our performance in this segment and to open opportunities for future growth.

在預付費領域，我們推出了一項新的主張，並對我們的市場走向進行調整，旨在提高我們在該領域的業績，並為未來的成長創造機會。

The second B of Best Network combines the largest coverage with the best quality and reliability.

最佳網路的第二個 B 結合了最大的覆蓋範圍和最佳的品質和可靠性。

As you know, TIM is the only operator to cover all cities of Brazil with 4G and it's also number one in cities with 5G, very close to 500 municipalities.

如您所知，TIM是唯一一家4G涵蓋巴西所有城市的營運商，也是5G城市排名第一的營運商，非常接近500個城市。

We are widening our leadership in consistent quality and we ranked first in reliability, a key metric for customer experience and more important than download speeds.

我們正在擴大我們在一致品質方面的領先地位，並且我們在可靠性方面排名第一，這是客戶體驗的關鍵指標，比下載速度更重要。

To deliver the best service, we work on addressing today's challenges while building an evolutionary path with artificial intelligence.

為了提供最好的服務，我們致力於應對當今的挑戰，同時利用人工智慧建構一條進化之路。

TIM is increasing first call resolution rates and facilitating digital interaction to maintain service quality at the highest standards efficiently.

TIM 正在提高首次呼叫解決率並促進數位交互，以有效地將服務品質保持在最高標準。

Therefore, call center NPS is improving and we continue to outperform the sector in resolution rankings.

因此，呼叫中心 NPS 正在改善，我們在解決方案排名方面繼續優於該行業。

Our AI initiatives continue to evolve TIM AIX is 100% rolled out to more than 5,000 attendants.

我們的 AI 計劃不斷發展 TIM AIX 已 100% 推廣到 5,000 多名服務員。

Speech and text analytics are producing insights into consumer complaints to improve and accelerate carrying activities.

語音和文字分析正在深入了解消費者投訴，以改善和加速攜帶活動。

Before Andrea joins us, I'd like to touch on an important topic for advancing our business.

在 Andrea 加入我們之前，我想談談推進我們業務的一個重要主題。

As we presented during our Investor Day a year ago, we have been working on expanding and developing new growth avenues such as our digital ecosystem and our B2B.

正如我們在一年前的投資者日上所介紹的那樣，我們一直致力於擴大和開發新的成長途徑，例如我們的數位生態系統和 B2B。

The expansion of this digital ecosystem is focused on verticals such as health, mobile apps, data monetization and education using partnership with consolidated companies.

這個數位生態系統的擴張重點是透過與整合公司的合作，在健康、行動應用、數據貨幣化和教育等垂直領域進行擴張。

Through venture capital investments, we use our 5G funds with upload Ventures to explore other segments with start-ups and scale-ups.

透過創投，我們利用 5G 基金與 upload Ventures 一起探索其他細分市場的新創公司和規模化企業。

Mobile ads and data monetization more than doubled the revenues in the past 12 months as we consolidate our position as a relevant player in these markets.

隨著我們鞏固作為這些市場相關參與者的地位，行動廣告和數據貨幣化的收入在過去 12 個月中增加了一倍以上。

In health, after the soft launch, we learned and adjusted the go-to-market and now we are bringing roughly 20,000 new customers to our partner.

在健康領域，軟啟動後，我們了解並調整了市場投放方式，現在我們為我們的合作夥伴帶來了約 20,000 名新客戶。

In Education, since the beginning of the partnership, more than 700,000 people subscribed to courses.

在教育領域，自合作夥伴關係開始以來，已有超過 70 萬人訂閱了課程。

Our fund now has two investees with promising addressable markets to be explored.

我們的基金現在有兩家被投資公司，他們的目標市場前景廣闊，有待探索。

In the coming weeks, we will announce initiatives in a new vertical to open further opportunities for TIM.

在未來幾週內，我們將宣布新垂直領域的舉措，為 TIM 帶來更多機會。

Regarding B2B, we are accelerating our execution to develop new IT market in Brazil.

在B2B方面，我們正在加速開發巴西新的IT市場。

We closed this quarter with more than BRL600 million in contracted revenues with two very relevant and new contracts signed.

本季結束時，我們簽訂了兩份非常相關的新合同，合約收入超過 6 億雷亞爾。

Additionally, we have a solid pipeline of potential clients for the coming months.

此外，我們在未來幾個月擁有穩定的潛在客戶管道。

Here, we also expect to go beyond the already known agri, straight lighting and highways vertical.

在這裡，我們也期望超越已知的農業、直線照明和高速公路垂直領域。

Stay tuned for novelties before the year-end.

年底前敬請關注新奇資訊。

Now we move along to more financial details with our CFO, Andrea.

現在，我們將與財務長 Andrea 討論更多財務細節。

Hello, everyone.

大家好。

I'm Andrea Viegas, CFO of TIM.

我是 Andrea Viegas，TIM 財務長。

I'm a pleasure to share that our performance continues to be strong with a clear highlight on our cash generation capacity as we had anticipated and communicated over recent quarters, supported by solid revenue growth above inflation, our EBITDA demonstrates robots results with a 7.5% increase and another quarter of margin expansion.

我很高興與大家分享，我們的業績繼續強勁，並明確強調了我們的現金生成能力，正如我們在最近幾個季度所預期和溝通的那樣，在高於通膨的穩健收入增長的支持下，我們的EBITDA 顯示機器人業績為7.5%成長和另一個季度的利潤率擴張。

After accounting for lease impacts, EBITDA after leases grew nearly 9%.

考慮到租賃影響後，租賃後 EBITDA 成長了近 9%。

Our tower decommissioning project no longer has a material impact.

我們的塔退役計畫不再產生重大影響。

A few tariffs were made to be financially decommissioned, we find still to be paid.

一些關稅是為了在經濟上退役而製定的，但我們發現仍然需要支付。

However, these numbers have significantly decreased.

然而，這些數字已顯著減少。

As a result, the EBITDA after leases margin expanded by an additional second point year-over-year.

因此，扣除租賃利潤後的 EBITDA 年比增加了第二個百分點。

Driven by TIM's overall strong performance, our net income saw double-digit growth when compared to third quarter '23, despite a lower interest on equity.

在 TIM 整體強勁業績的推動下，儘管股本利息較低，但與 2023 年第三季相比，我們的淨利潤仍實現了兩位數成長。

Additionally, operation cash flow grew over 20%, with margin expanding to 25%.

此外，經營現金流量成長超過20%，利潤率擴大至25%。

Despite the country challenge with ForEx exchange pressure, we're managing to maintain our CapEx levels within guidance bands.

儘管該國面臨外匯兌換壓力的挑戰，但我們仍設法將資本支出水準維持在指導範圍內。

Our nine months results are also quite positive with operating cash flow nearly 30% growth and exceeding 21% as a percentage of revenue.

我們 9 個月的表現也相當樂觀，營運現金流成長近 30%，佔營收的百分比超過 21%。

This third quarter confirms what I highlighted in our previous call.

第三季證實了我在上次電話會議中強調的內容。

Seasonal negative impact on working capital and CapEx have indeed reverted.

對營運資本和資本支出的季節性負面影響確實已經恢復。

Even with nearly BRL2 billion in debt and interest payment, we generate almost BRL2.3 billion in cash before dividends.

即使有近 20 億雷亞爾的債務和利息支付，我們仍能產生近 23 億雷亞爾的股息前現金。

These results underscore the strength of our strategy and I'm confident we are on track to meet our year-end guidance, even with a more challenging comparison base in the second half.

這些結果凸顯了我們策略的優勢，我相信，即使下半年的比較基礎更具挑戰性，我們也有望實現年終指引。

Now, back to Alberto.

現在，回到阿爾貝托。

To conclude our quarter discussions, it is worth recapping some developments in the past three months.

為了結束我們的季度討論，有必要回顧過去三個月的一些進展。

We saw some new pricing movements from our peers but competition remains healthy and we believe it will remain like that.

我們看到同行出現了一些新的定價變動，但競爭仍然健康，我們相信這種情況將會持續下去。

So much so that we reformulated our post-paid portfolio without using the pricing lever to improve the value proposition.

以至於我們重新制定了後付費投資組合，而沒有使用定價槓桿來改善價值主張。

We are carefully looking into our prepaid dynamics and adjusting our offer and go-to-market to regain momentum.

我們正在仔細研究我們的預付費動態，並調整我們的報價和上市以重新獲得動力。

We will implement our GenAI use cases that prove to be promising for our customer experience and efficiency.

我們將實施 GenAI 用例，事實證明這些用例對我們的客戶體驗和效率很有希望。

We will keep developing our business while caring for our people, society and the environment.

我們將不斷發展業務，同時關心我們的人民、社會和環境。

The third quarter was marked by outstanding cash flow performance.

第三季現金流表現優異。

We were also pleased with the post-paid contribution and the efficiency of our operations.

我們也對後付費捐款和我們的營運效率感到滿意。

We are positive we will deliver on our promises on all guidance lines.

我們確信我們將在所有指導方針上兌現我們的承諾。

Therefore, out of our three year guidance we gave, we confirm our intention to distribute an additional BRL2.7 billion in shareholder remuneration between dividends and interest on equity totaling BRL3.5 billion for 2024.

因此，在我們給出的三年指引中，我們確認打算在 2024 年在股利和權益利息中額外分配 27 億雷亞爾的股東薪酬，總額為 35 億雷亞爾。

The journey towards our aspiration of becoming Brazil's most preferred mobile operator requires firm commitment and consistency.

在實現成為巴西最受歡迎的行動營運商的過程中，我們需要堅定的承諾和一致性。

I'm sure we have the right people to deliver this throughout hard work, creativity and discipline.

我確信我們有合適的人透過努力工作、創造力和紀律來實現這一目標。

Now, let's move to the live Q&A session.

現在，讓我們進入現場問答環節。

(Operator Instructions)

（操作員說明）

Marcelo Santos, JPMorgan.

馬塞洛桑托斯，摩根大通。

Alberto Andrea.

阿爾貝托·安德烈亞.

I have actually two.

我其實有兩個。

The first question is on prepaid.

第一個問題是關於預付費的。

I wanted to get a better assessment on how do you think you're doing in this market?

我想更好地評估您在這個市場的表現如何？

Like are you losing space?

就像你失去空間一樣？

You mentioned in the release some lower recharges in some group.

您在新聞稿中提到了某些組別中的一些較低的儲值。

So just wanted to better understand the performance.

所以只是想更了解性能。

The second question is more in general about mobile service revenues.

第二個問題更多的是關於行動服務收入。

Not all the peers reported yet but you have been growing a bit below peers.

並非所有同行都報告了，但您的成長速度略低於同行。

So just wanted to understand the elements here.

所以只是想了解這裡的元素。

Do you think this is more of value-added services are growing a bit less?

您認為這更多的是增值服務的成長少了一點嗎？

Or is this more on the prepaid that's dragging you?

還是這更多是因為預付費拖累了你？

So, just wanted to get your assessment.

所以，只是想得到你的評估。

Thank you, Marcelo.

謝謝你，馬塞洛。

Hi, everybody.

大家好。

So let's go with the first one that it's somewhat related to the second one.

因此，我們先來看第一個，因為它與第二個有點相關。

So when it comes to prepaid, so what we are observing in this quarter, in this last three quarters that we are sort of going sideways.

因此，當談到預付費時，我們在本季、過去三個季度中觀察到的情況是，我們有點橫行。

So if you look at our prepaid revenues, you will see quite similar numbers quarter one, quarter two and quarter three.

因此，如果您查看我們的預付費收入，您會發現第一季、第二季和第三季的數字非常相似。

And if you look at our competitors' numbers, you are likely to see a quite similar pattern.

如果您查看我們競爭對手的數據，您可能會看到非常相似的模式。

When you look at the year-over-year performance, we had quite a good 2023 on prepaid.

從年比表現來看，我們在 2023 年的預付費業務表現相當不錯。

And therefore, the comparison is a revenue decrease on a quarter-for-quarter starting second quarter this year.

因此，比較的是從今年第二季開始的季度營收下降。

And this is basically due to a few factors.

這基本上是由於幾個因素造成的。

So let's recap what happened in the last quarter of last year, when we did some price adjustment across the board.

讓我們回顧一下去年最後一個季度發生的事情，當時我們進行了全面的價格調整。

Once we did this price adjustment across the board, basically, we made two things.

一旦我們全面進行了價格調整，基本上，我們做了兩件事。

We created a sort of a better incentive to migrate for prepaid to control.

我們創建了一種更好的激勵措施來遷移預付費控制。

And so in this 2024, we have a faster prepaid to control migration so far.

所以在這個2024年，我們有一個更快的預付費來控制迄今為止的遷移。

And this is, of course, impact our prepaid revenues.

當然，這會影響我們的預付費收入。

At the same time, we found out some less frequency of recharges in specific group of prepaid after the price adjustment.

同時，我們發現調價後部分預付費族群的儲值次數減少。

And so a sort of negative elasticity that created a negative impact on our prepaid revenues growth potential.

因此，一種負彈性對我們的預付費收入成長潛力產生了負面影響。

And so we got something that is intended and something that was not intended.

所以我們得到了一些有意的東西和一些無意的東西。

And this explains our prepaid performance in the first quarter, second quarter and third quarter.

這解釋了我們第一季、第二季和第三季的預付費業績。

A couple of months ago, we launched an upgraded value proposition to improve our prepaid performance going forward.

幾個月前，我們推出了升級的價值主張，以提高我們未來的預付績效。

That is basically centered around three concept.

這基本上圍繞著三個概念。

The first one is to be more appealing on prepaid in the market space.

第一個是預付費在市場空間中更具吸引力。

So if you look at the prepaid offering, it's -- they're quite similar and it's been quite similar for a while.

因此，如果你看一下預付費產品，你會發現它們非常相似，而且已經有一段時間了。

So we put on the market some innovation to be more appealing.

因此，我們向市場推出了一些創新產品，使其更具吸引力。

The second one is to increase the frequency of recharges for some specific groups and is primarily related to the Whatsapp benefit that we included.

第二個是增加某些特定群體的儲值頻率，主要與我們納入的 Whatsapp 福利有關。

And the third one is to stimulate the download and usage of our App Meu TIM which brings to us basically two benefits, an increased communication mechanisms and a better cost to serve.

第三個是刺激我們的 App Meu TIM 的下載和使用，基本上為我們帶來兩個好處，增加的溝通機制和更好的服務成本。

So when you look at the prepaid performance, this -- what is driving this is prepaid to control migration on one side and on the other side, the lower recurrency on specific lower-income subsegments of prepaid.

因此，當你觀察預付費的表現時，推動這一趨勢的因素一方面是預付費控制遷移，另一方面是預付費的特定低收入細分市場的較低復現率。

So this is for the first question.

這是第一個問題。

When you move to the second question, you look at our overall revenue performance you would see that we are quite on the right track on post-paid in line with our peers.

當您轉向第二個問題時，您會看到我們的整體收入表現，您會發現我們在後付費方面與同行一樣處於正確的軌道上。

And what is dragging us at a lower speed versus them is primarily the prepaid performance for us.

與他們相比，拖慢我們速度的主要是我們的預付費效能。

So what I've just said to prepaid impact our overall revenue profile.

所以我剛才所說的預付費會影響我們的整體收入狀況。

And that's the reason why we have been launching a new value proposition to capture the opportunities that we have on prepaid.

這就是為什麼我們一直在推出新的價值主張來抓住我們在預付費方面的機會。

Of course, then you have other revenue opportunities that are primarily related to our customer platform strategy and the business segment that are accretive on our revenue growth.

當然，您還有其他收入機會，這些機會主要與我們的客戶平台策略和業務部門相關，這些機會會增加我們的收入成長。

Vitor Tomita, Goldman Sachs.

維托·富田，高盛。

So two questions from our side.

我們這邊有兩個問題。

The first one would be on the post-paid side now, if you could give us an updated view on how you are seeing competition in post-paid, especially at the lower end of post-paid, the controller plans where you have been carrying out prepaid to post-paid migrations and also recently launched a new plan portfolio?

第一個現在是後付費方面，如果您能為我們提供關於您如何看待後付費競爭的最新觀點，特別是在後付費的低端，控制器計劃您一直在哪裡進行從預付費到後付費遷移，並且最近還推出了新的計劃組合？

And my second question would be on the mobile advertising initiative.

我的第二個問題是關於行動廣告計劃。

If you could give us a bit more color on how that has been evolving and how it is being operationalized in particular, what are the most common ways you usually display the ads to clients if it's mostly commonly done via push notifications or via videos that they can watch or other methods.

如果您能給我們更多關於它是如何發展的，特別是如何運作的信息，那麼您通常向客戶展示廣告的最常見方式是什麼（如果通常是通過推送通知或通過他們播放的視頻來完成）可以透過觀看或其他方式。

And on whether there are strong growth there in mobile ads has been more concentrated in your own hedging inventory or on sale of third-party inventories.

關於行動廣告是否有強勁成長，更集中在您自己的對沖庫存或第三方庫存的銷售。

Those would be my questions.

這些都是我的問題。

So let's go on post-paid, the first question and the competitive dynamics over there.

那麼，讓我們繼續討論後付費的第一個問題以及那裡的競爭動態。

So on pure post-paid, that the post-paid that's roughly the higher post-paid plans with an initial price point of around BRL110, BRL120, we see quite a rational environment.

因此，就純後付費而言，後付費大致是較高的後付費計劃，初始價格約為 110 雷亞爾、120 雷亞爾，我們看到了相當理性的環境。

So there are no big movements or updates there.

所以那裡沒有大的動作或更新。

And if you look at what we control -- what we define as the mid post-paid or entry post-paid which is the control plans or hybrid plans, we have been executing a price adjustment front book and back book in between the first quarter and the second quarter.

如果你看看我們控制的內容——我們定義為中期後付費或入門後付費，即控制計劃或混合計劃，我們一直在第一季度之間執行價格調整前書和後書和第二季度。

Another competitor did something quite similar in quite similar time period, so in between the first quarter and the third quarter.

另一個競爭對手在非常相似的時間段（即第一季和第三季之間）做了非常相似的事情。

And Claro did the same sort of movements in -- at the beginning of July and they decided to roll it back at the end of July -- at the end of July.

Claro 在 7 月初也做了同樣的動作，他們決定在 7 月底將其回滾。

So they went back to where we -- they were before the upgrade.

所以他們回到了我們升級之前的位置。

I would say that is something related to -- something that didn't work out.

我想說的是，這與一些沒有成功的事情有關。

So once you do a price adjustment, you're intentional on that.

因此，一旦你進行價格調整，你就是有意的。

So the fact that they went back signaled to us something that it didn't work out on their side.

因此，他們回去的事實向我們發出了這樣的訊號：他們這邊的情況並不順利。

But the price difference is quite thin among the big players.

但大公司之間的價格差異相當小。

And what happened and it's been on the press and your reports over the last few days is the launch of an MVNO by new bank with position the offer in this group of control sort of prices and they're a bit more aggressive versus us.

過去幾天媒體和你們的報導中發生的事情是，新銀行推出了 MVNO，並將報價定位在這組控制價格中，而且他們比我們更具侵略性。

We tend to look at this offer as a BTL offer that they intend to cross and upsell to their customer base.

我們傾向於將此優惠視為 BTL 優惠，他們打算將其交叉並向其客戶群追加銷售。

And to this respect, this offer is quite similar to our BTL offer.

從這方面來說，這個報價與我們的 BTL 報價非常相似。

So it's a bit more aggressive in prices but the offer itself, it's -- doesn't present at this point in time, nothing special.

因此，它的價格有點激進，但優惠本身目前還沒有出現，沒什麼特別的。

When you look at our strategy, we are committed to the overall more-for-more approach and to give you an example, Victor, we just launched our Black Friday value proposition for control whereby we are not touching the price.

當你看我們的策略時，我們致力於整體多對多的方法，給你舉個例子，維克多，我們剛剛推出了黑色星期五的控制價值主張，我們不觸及價格。

What we are giving to our customer is an extra benefit if they acquire -- if they subscribe to our promotion.

如果客戶訂閱我們的促銷活動，我們將為他們提供額外的好處。

What is this extra benefit?

這個額外的好處是什麼？

It's one year of Netflix subscription.

Netflix 訂閱已滿一年。

So we keep on playing on our side, the more-for-more approach and the Black Friday campaign that we just launched it's a confirmation of this.

因此，我們繼續站在自己這邊，多換多的方法和我們剛推出的黑色星期五活動就證實了這一點。

If we go to your second question which is related to mobile advertising.

如果我們討論你的第二個問題，它與行動廣告有關。

So the first point is, today, it is primarily on our own inventory.

所以第一點是，今天，它主要是在我們自己的庫存上。

So we are working on our own channels.

所以我們正在開發自己的頻道。

And these channels are primarily our app -- another subset of app that we have, our one-to-one communication mechanisms and the captive portal is -- that is where the customer go when they finish recharging and the format is variable depending on the channel.

這些管道主要是我們的應用程式——我們擁有的應用程式的另一個子集，我們的一對一通訊機制和強制門戶——這是客戶完成充電後所去的地方，並且格式根據不同的情況而變化。

So we can even some of them like the app or captive portal, you can have images and you can have just simple messages.

因此，我們甚至可以使用其中的一些應用程式或強制門戶，您可以有圖像，也可以只有簡單的訊息。

And so we have been working over the last years to build inventory and we have been working to create the pipeline of advertisers have been working on showing the advertising, the efficiency of our communication mechanisms and inventory.

因此，過去幾年我們一直在努力建立庫存，我們一直在努力創建廣告商管道，一直致力於展示廣告、我們的溝通機制和庫存的效率。

And this has been working quite well.

這一直運作良好。

And that's the reason why we have been able basically to expand inventory within our own perimeter, so not upside for the time being and capturing more customers and more clients on our side.

這就是為什麼我們基本上能夠在自己的範圍內擴大庫存，因此暫時沒有上升空間，並吸引更多的客戶和更多的客戶在我們這邊。

Gustavo Farias, UBS.

古斯塔沃·法裡亞斯，瑞銀集團。

Two from my end.

從我這邊算兩個。

The first one on prepaid and in the light of a less frequent recharging -- recharges in the prepaid market, do you guys see any impact -- relevant impacts of bets in prepaid?

第一個是關於預付費的，鑑於充值頻率較低——預付費市場的充值，你們是否看到任何影響——預付費投注的相關影響？

And my second question, if you guys could give us more color on the increase in leasing expenses quarter-over-quarter.

我的第二個問題，你們能否給我們更多有關租賃費用季度環比增長的信息。

So Gustavo, let me take the first one and then I will pass the second one here to Andrea.

古斯塔沃，讓我拿第一個，然後我將把第二個交給安德里亞。

So on the first one, the less frequency for prepaid, it's related to a sub -- so when you look at prepaid, you basically have different groups of customers in terms of profiles.

因此，在第一個方面，預付費的頻率較低，它與子相關 - 因此，當您查看預付費時，您基本上在配置文件方面擁有不同的客戶群。

So from one side, one extreme, we have lower income customers.

因此，從一方面，一個極端來看，我們的客戶收入較低。

And on the other side, on the opposite side, you have people without any economic restriction but people that prefer to pay on a prepaid mode.

另一方面，在另一邊，人們沒有任何經濟限制，但更喜歡以預付模式付款。

And so when I say that there is less frequency, the less frequency tends to impact the lower income segments.

因此，當我說頻率較低時，頻率較低往往會影響較低收入群體。

And in our view, it's related to the price adjustment that we did last year.

我們認為，這與我們去年的價格調整有關。

The bet impact, we don't have any data that suggests that bet is impacting in a negative way the profile of our recharges.

投注影響，我們沒有任何數據顯示投注會對我們的儲值狀況產生負面影響。

Gustavo, related to the leases we already expect an increase in the second half of this year.

Gustavo，與租賃相關，我們預計今年下半年會增加。

We have this increased major for 3 points.

我們把這個專業增加了3分。

The inflation adjustment related to our regular contracts.

通貨膨脹調整與我們的常規合約有關。

We also have new sites that came from our 5G expansion.

我們還擁有來自 5G 擴展的新站點。

And also, we have new contracts such as the solar -- the energy contracts that we have that also impact in these.

此外，我們還有新的合同，例如太陽能合約——我們對這些合約也有影響。

What we are working is -- continues to generate efficiency in design and we expect this line grow above the revenue of -- the growth of revenue will be higher than the growth of this lease.

我們正在努力的是——繼續提高設計效率，我們預計這條線的成長將高於收入的成長——收入的成長將高於該租賃的成長。

So for the first -- for the next quarter we still have this impact but the expectations to be under their control and lower than increase of the revenues.

因此，首先，對於下個季度，我們仍然會產生這種影響，但預期會受到他們的控制，並且低於收入的成長。

Phani Kanumuri, HSBC.

Phani Kanumuri，匯豐銀行。

So the first question is regarding how you're placed for price readjustments next year, considering that Claro has taken back and rolled back at price readjustment this year?

那麼第一個問題是，考慮到Claro今年的價格調整已經收回並回滾，那麼明年的價格調整你將如何定位？

And the second question is regarding CapEx guidance, specifically for 2025, '26 with the recent depreciation of BRL versus USD, do you see a risk to the guidance?

第二個問題是關於資本支出指導，特別是 2025 年、26 年雷亞爾兌美元最近貶值，您認為該指導有風險嗎？

So, the first one which is on price adjustment for next year, I'm not sure I got the second one, correct.

所以，第一個是關於明年的價格調整，我不確定我是否得到了第二個，是否正確。

You got it.

你明白了。

Okay, so on the first one, when it comes to the price adjustment, so the idea for next year is to repeat what we did this year in between the first quarter and the second quarter which is finally, the -- what we call the front book price adjustment and the back book price adjustment.

好的，第一個問題，談到價格調整，明年的想法是重複我們今年第一季和第二季之間所做的事情，最後，我們稱之為前書調價和後書調價。

And of course, so the distinction about these two is the following.

當然，這兩者的差別如下。

It's -- we have been doing this year in 2024 and 2023, the two movements together.

我們今年、2024 年和 2023 年一直在做這兩項運動。

So we increased the back book prices and the front book prices.

所以我們提高了背面書的價格和正面書的價格。

And for next year, when it comes to the back book prices, we're going to execute it anyway as we were executing beforehand.

明年，當談到過帳價格時，我們無論如何都會像之前執行的那樣執行。

When it comes for the front book price adjustment, this, of course, it's impacted by the overall movement of the industry.

封面書的價格調整，當然受到業界整體走勢的影響。

Now, if you look at -- so on post-paid, we feel pretty comfortable that we are at the right price point.

現在，如果你看看後付費的情況，我們會覺得我們的價格很合適。

So we should be able to execute both together.

所以我們應該能夠同時執行兩者。

For control today, we are at a price point where Vivo is at BRL60, we are at BRL57 and Clara is BRL55, so like the enterprises.

對於今天的控制，我們的價格點是 Vivo 為 60 雷亞爾，我們為 57 雷亞爾，Clara 為 55 雷亞爾，企業也是如此。

So they are very close to each other.

所以他們彼此非常接近。

We, therefore, are 100% sure on back book price adjustment and likely to do an inflationary adjustment also on front book prices as we did in 2024 and 2023, given the current competitive environment.

因此，考慮到當前的競爭環境，我們 100% 確定會調整後台圖書價格，並可能對前台圖書價格進行通貨膨脹調整，就像我們在 2024 年和 2023 年所做的那樣。

Related to the CapEx, we are in line with what we expect.

就資本支出而言，我們符合我們的預期。

CapEx the division of a quarter is not the big vision.

資本支出劃分四分之一並不是一個偉大的願景。

We have to see the full year.

我們必須看到全年。

And although we have a low -- a lot of efficiency generated by our contracts with 5G, we expect to maintain our guidance in the CapEx of full year.

儘管我們的 5G 合約產生的效率較低，但我們預計將維持全年資本支出的指導。

I don't know if I addressed your question correctly.

我不知道我是否正確地回答了你的問題。

Not so -- my question was that since BRL has been depreciating, Brazilia has been depreciating versus USD.

事實並非如此——我的問題是，由於巴西雷亞爾一直在貶值，巴西利亞兌美元也一直在貶值。

Does it impact your CapEx guidance, especially in 2025 and 2026?

這是否會影響您的資本支出指引，尤其是 2025 年和 2026 年？

Okay.

好的。

The exchange rate, we have -- we are in a good place related to our contracts, the band that we have for exchange rates.

我們的匯率－與我們的合約、我們的匯率區間相關，我們處於一個良好的位置。

Until now, we have no impact related to the dollar.

到目前為止，我們還沒有與美元相關的影響。

In 2025, we are working with the same range and we -- for now, with these exchange rates that we have now, we don't see any impact for 2025.

2025 年，我們將在相同的範圍內開展工作，目前，根據現有的匯率，我們認為 2025 年不會受到任何影響。

Maybe it's worth adding, Phani, that we just closed a new round a big (inaudible) with the 5G providers which is a big chunk of our CapEx or network CapEx a couple of months ago.

也許值得補充的是，Phani，我們剛剛與 5G 供應商完成了新一輪大型（聽不清楚）合作，這是幾個月前我們資本支出或網路資本支出的很大一部分。

And so the banks that we are looking at and we have they are banks that are compatible with the current exchange rates, of course.

因此，我們正在尋找的銀行以​​及我們擁有的銀行當然是與當前匯率相容的銀行。

If it changes a lot, then we may have an impact.

如果變化很大，那麼我們可能會產生影響。

But in the current status, we are okay even because we just closed the contracts for the next three years.

但就目前的情況來看，我們還好，因為我們剛結束了未來三年的合約。

And so the real was sort of already depreciated versus US dollars.

因此，雷亞爾相對於美元已經貶值了。

Gabriel Vaz de Lima, Morgan Stanley.

加布里埃爾·瓦茲·德利馬，摩根士丹利。

My question is on 2025 growth.

我的問題是關於 2025 年的成長。

Considering the macro and considering the new plans launched by Nubank, do you see risks of growing above inflation next year?

考慮到宏觀經濟並考慮到 Nubank 推出的新計劃，您認為明年成長是否有高於通膨的風險？

And what's your thoughts on growing above inflation for 2025?

您對 2025 年經濟成長超越通膨有何看法？

Well, Gabriel, our plan is to grow above inflation.

好吧，加布里埃爾，我們的計劃是實現高於通貨膨脹的成長。

And so far, we see the elements in place to be able to grow above inflation.

到目前為止，我們看到了能夠超越通膨成長的要素。

So -- the growth is primarily driven by -- if you look at post-paid, you look at an increase of customer base, an increase of ARPU which is in turn related to the price adjustment and we are planning to do this price adjustment as just -- I just discussed on Phani's question.

因此，成長主要是由後付費驅動的，你會看到客戶群的增加、ARPU 的增加，這反過來又與價格調整有關，我們計劃進行這次價格調整正如——我剛剛討論了法尼的問題。

And if you look at our performance on post-paid you will see that we have a growth driven on post-paid primarily on customer base growth and ARPU growth.

如果你看看我們在後付費方面的表現，你會發現我們後付費的成長主要是由客戶群成長和 ARPU 成長所推動的。

So I don't see this changing next year.

所以我認為明年這種情況不會改變。

On prepaid, we put in place the efforts and the commitment to parts to improve our performance.

在預付費方面，我們對零件做出了努力和承諾，以提高我們的績效。

If you -- what I already mentioned, if you look at quarter-on-quarter, you will see that we are going sideways and what we are looking at now is a month-over-month increase.

如果你——我已經提到過，如果你看一下季度環比，你會發現我們正在橫向發展，而我們現在看到的是逐月增長。

And so we launched the offer a couple of months ago.

因此，我們在幾個月前推出了該優惠。

It generally takes a few quarters to kick off.

通常需要幾個季度才能開始。

So we're looking now at the operational KPI and we are positive on a number of them.

因此，我們現在正在研究營運 KPI，我們對其中的許多指標持積極態度。

So the trend should improve going forward.

因此，未來趨勢應該會改善。

And we have another set of revenues like the customer platform revenues and the B2B revenues that is increasing constantly over time, not only in the contracted revenues but also in terms of the pipeline that we are looking at.

我們還有另一組收入，例如客戶平台收入和 B2B 收入，這些收入隨著時間的推移不斷增加，不僅在合約收入方面，而且在我們正在考慮的管道方面也是如此。

And so when you look at the inflation projection for next year and the efforts that we are putting in place, we are still comfortable that we are going to grow above inflation as in our current guidance that for next year, it's in between 5% and 6%.

因此，當你看到明年的通膨預測以及我們正在採取的努力時，我們仍然對我們的成長將高於通膨感到滿意，正如我們目前的指導那樣，明年的通膨率在5% 到5% 之間。

Just remember what is our target.

只要記住我們的目標是什麼就好了。

So for this year, it was in between 5% and 7% and starting next year, it's between 5% and 6%.

今年的比例在 5% 到 7% 之間，從明年開始，比例在 5% 到 6% 之間。

(inaudible)

（聽不清楚）

So I have two on my end.

所以我這邊有兩個。

The first one is I would love to hear your thoughts on the evolution of the customer from prepaid to control to post-paid.

第一個是我很想聽聽您對客戶從預付費到控制再到後付費演變的想法。

Maybe if you can talk a little bit about like the percentage of people who move to control and how many of those eventually maybe move to pure post-paid.

也許你可以談談轉向控制的人的百分比以及其中有多少人最終可能轉向純粹的後付費。

And what are the difference in churn rates between control and pure post-paid.

控制和純後付費之間的流失率有什麼不同？

And how also price sensitive the two different types of post-paid consumers are?

兩種不同類型的後付費消費者對價格的敏感度如何？

That will be the first question, please.

這是第一個問題。

And on the second one, maybe for Andrea.

第二個，也許是為了安德里亞。

The OPEC control has really been remarkable aside from what you just mentioned, Alberto, about the above inflation ARPU increase for next year, is there any further room that you can see for savings in OpEx so you can deliver further margin expansion?

除了你剛才提到的，Alberto，關於明年的上述通膨 ARPU 成長之外，歐佩克的控制確實非常顯著，你是否還可以看到營運支出節省的進一步空間，以便你可以實現進一步的利潤擴張？

So let's take the first one.

那我們就來看第一個。

So when it comes to prepaid to control migration, it's a good proportion of our net addition today.

因此，當談到控制移民的預付費時，它在我們今天的淨增加中佔有很大比例。

So it's something that it represents, I would say, on average, something like 50% of our overall number is growing double-digit year-over-year.

所以我想說，這代表著平均而言，我們總數的 50% 正在以兩位數的速度逐年增長。

And one of the stimulus to that is the fact that we price adjust prepaid and the fact that we are quite able to select the right customers to migrate from prepaid to control as well as control to control and control to pure post-paid.

對此的刺激因素之一是我們對預付費進行價格調整，並且我們完全能夠選擇合適的客戶從預付費遷移到控制，以及從控製到控制和控製到純後付費。

So when we design these migrations, what we look at is a fairly huge number of subgroups.

因此，當我們設計這些遷移時，我們看到的是相當大量的子組。

We are talking about tens and for each of them, we provide the starting point and the ending point which is different among different groups, so got a quite different lending point in terms of pricing and benefits.

我們談論的是幾十個，對於每個人，我們提供了不同群體之間不同的起點和終點，因此在定價和收益方面得到了完全不同的貸款點。

The way we designed this migration strategy is roughly the following.

我們設計這個遷移策略的方式大致如下。

We look at ARPU increase which is one of the driver and we look also at not increasing share and bad debt.

我們關注 ARPU 的成長，這是驅動因素之一，我們也關注份額和壞帳的不增加。

So that's the reason why we've got all these subsegments and that our marketing is working on the time.

這就是我們擁有所有這些細分市場並且我們的行銷正在及時開展的原因。

We select a group of people.

我們選擇一群人。

We try -- we start migrating people from that offer to another one.

我們嘗試 - 我們開始將人員從該職位遷移到另一個職位。

We look at the overall effect in terms of ARPU, churn and bad debt.

我們從 ARPU、客戶流失率和壞帳方面考察整體影響。

And when we find a favorable equation, we scale it up.

當我們找到一個有利的方程式時，我們就會擴大它的規模。

So we do the ARPU increase being quite cautious with potential negative impact of churn and/or bad debt.

因此，我們對 ARPU 的成長持非常謹慎的態度，考慮到客戶流失和/或壞帳的潛在負面影響。

And so this -- it's a fine tuned and optimized on a daily basis by our marketing team.

因此，我們的行銷團隊每天都會對其進行微調和優化。

And so this is the way we look at that.

這就是我們看待這個問題的方式。

And that's the reason why we keep on growing revenues without growing either bad debt which is quite stable at 1.9% of revenues or churn which is a record low.

這就是為什麼我們的收入持續成長，而壞帳（穩定在收入的 1.9%）或流失率（創歷史新低）的成長。

So we do this in a cautious way to increase the accretiveness on revenues but without impacting negatively our cost or our other operational KPI like churn, so like creating a washing machine.

因此，我們以謹慎的方式這樣做，以增加收入的成長，但不會對我們的成本或其他營運 KPI（例如客戶流失率）產生負面影響，就像製造一台洗衣機一樣。

Carlos, that was clear, was elaborate, I'm not sure you got the points that you were after.

卡洛斯，很明顯，很詳盡，我不確定你是否得到了你想要的要點。

Yeah.

是的。

I mean on the first one, very clear.

我的意思是第一個，非常清楚。

And then on the second one, was just thinking about potential margin expansion for next year, I was saying that the OpEx control has been very remarkable.

然後在第二個問題上，我只是在考慮明年潛在的利潤率擴張，我說營運支出控制非常出色。

So maybe you can shed light into what items within OPEC, you can maybe have a little bit of control to take it down so you can deliver the actual margin expansion aside from the above inflation pricing, please?

因此，也許您可以闡明歐佩克內部的哪些項目，您也許可以有一點控制權來將其取消，這樣除了上述通膨定價之外，您還可以實現實際的利潤擴張，好嗎？

[Carlos], working in efficiencies.

[卡洛斯]，注重效率。

Ours -- it's a continuous acting

我們的—這是一個持續的表演

(inaudible).

（聽不清楚）。

We are always looking for another opportunity and now we are working with some trials, reference to this activation challenge to work especially in the maintenance of the network and the carrying of the customer, the cost interest.

我們一直在尋找另一個機會，現在我們正在進行一些試驗，參考這個激活挑戰來工作，特別是在網路維護和客戶承載、成本利益方面。

So we always try to find another opportunity.

所以我們總是試著尋找另一個機會。

Of course, we already have a very high margin but our intention is to continue to grow the OpEx lower than the growth of the revenue.

當然，我們已經擁有非常高的利潤率，但我們的目的是繼續使營運支出的成長低於收入的成長。

So room for improvement, we are always looking for.

因此，我們一直在尋找改進的空間。

And our focus is to deliver at least maintain -- that we have and especially in (inaudible) -- we think we expect to increase a little bit our margin.

我們的重點是至少維持——我們已經做到了，尤其是（聽不清楚）——我們認為我們預計會增加一點利潤。

And Carlos, if I may add, if you want to look at the different, let's say, categories we are looking at we got discipline.

卡洛斯，如果我可以補充一下，如果你想看看不同的類別，比如說，我們正在研究的類別，我們有紀律。

So having everybody sort of committed to deliver -- to spend something and deliver something on top of the expenditure.

因此，每個人都承諾要交付一些東西——在支出的基礎上花費一些東西並交付一些東西。

And then we have the technology that Andrea just mentioned, like artificial intelligence is the last weave that we are implemented.

然後我們有安德里亞剛才提到的技術，就像人工智慧是我們實施的最後一個編織。

So where we stand which we demonstrated that we have the efficiency on a limited scale -- and so we already moved this year from limited scale to full deployment.

因此，我們已經證明了我們在有限規模上的效率，因此我們今年已從有限規模轉向全面部署。

And so we are working to capture the synergy at full scale.

因此，我們正在努力充分發揮協同作用。

The third lever that I think is worth mentioning is the continuous make versus buy decisions.

我認為值得一提的第三個槓桿是持續的自製與購買決策。

And for example, we got -- we implemented in the past several business process outsourcing initiatives for tower, fraud and billing.

例如，我們過去實施了多項針對塔、詐欺和計費的業務流程外包計畫。

We just closed another one for a piece of our infrastructure services and working on another one on customer value management.

我們剛剛關閉了另一項基礎​​設施服務，並致力於另一項有關客戶價值管理的服務。

So it's discipline, it's technology and it's a constant review of make versus buy activities in search of productivity increase and quality increase.

因此，這是紀律，是技術，是對製造與購買活動的不斷審查，以尋求生產力的提高和品質的提高。

Daniel Federle, Bradesco BBI.

丹尼爾費德爾 (Daniel Federle)，布拉德斯科 BBI。

Alberto, do you see room for making plans more simple, like easier to understand or removing SVAs?

Alberto，您認為計劃有變得更簡單的空間嗎，例如更容易理解或刪除 SVA？

And do you see any reason for making them simpler this way?

您認為有什麼理由讓它們變得更簡單嗎？

Additionally, if you see room for any significant improvement in the customer experience in-store and in the app and what the time line for making those experiences much better if it's something that takes time or that you could change from one year to the next?

此外，如果您認為店內和應用程式中的客戶體驗還有任何重大改進的空間，如果需要時間或您可以從一年到下一年進行更改，那麼改善這些體驗的時間表是怎樣的？

And the second question is given that we have new players come into the market, peer mobile players, how do you see the importance of a convergence offer, like bundle of fixed and wireless?

第二個問題是，我們有新的參與者進入市場，同儕的行動參與者，您如何看待融合產品（例如固定和無線捆綁）的重要性？

Daniel, let's go the first one.

丹尼爾，我們來第一個吧。

When it goes to the quality of the service that we provide, we -- this is an imperative of our strategy and important element of the more-for-more strategy.

當談到我們提供的服務品質時，我們——這是我們策略的必要條件，也是多多策略的重要組成部分。

So we say, okay, if we compete less on price, of course, we need to compete more on the perceived quality and value perceived by the customers.

所以我們說，好吧，如果我們減少價格競爭，當然，我們需要在客戶感知的品質和價值上進行更多競爭。

So when it comes to the more-for-more strategy, what we have been doing and what we did with the new post-paid portfolio, both pure post-paid and control portfolio that we just mentioned is include benefits that the customer value and generally this fall into the categories of bundle.

因此，當談到多對多策略時，我們一直在做的事情以及我們對新的後付費組合所做的事情，我們剛才提到的純後付費組合和控制組合都包括客戶重視的好處和通常這屬於捆綁類別。

And when we say that the customer value we know that they value because we know how many of them are subscribed to something else versus a mobile service.

當我們說客戶價值時，我們知道他們重視，因為我們知道他們中有多少人訂閱了其他服務而不是行動服務。

So if you look at our presentation, you will see that in post-paid, we have been growing this penetration 11%.

因此，如果您查看我們的簡報，您會發現在後付費領域，我們的滲透率一直在增加 11%。

And we say, okay but what is the starting line.

我們說，好吧，但是起跑線是什麼？

We are talking about something in the range of 30% to 40%, depending on the group of bundle penetration in our customer base.

我們談論的範圍是 30% 到 40%，具體取決於我們客戶群中捆綁滲透率的群體。

So it's pretty high.

所以它是相當高的。

And so customers value this.

所以客戶很重視這一點。

And this is about the benefits and the bundling of the benefits.

這是關於利益和利益的捆綁。

The other thing that we are working, so it's not just perceived value but perceived quality is to simplify a number of processes.

我們正在努力的另一件事是簡化許多流程，這不僅是感知價值，也是感知品質。

And so when you look at the control plans and post-paid plans that we just formulated, they have significant improvements in what we identified, we know that are some customers' hurdles.

因此，當您查看我們剛剛制定的控制計劃和後付費計劃時，您會發現它們對我們所確定的內容有了重大改進，我們知道這是一些客戶的障礙。

So it's a continuous process that started years ago and we keep on working every month to improve the customer experience.

因此，這是一個多年前就開始的持續過程，我​​們每個月都在努力改善客戶體驗。

You see this reflected in increased NPS as is presented in our results.

正如我們的結果所示，這反映在 NPS 的增加上。

It's a long journey but it's journey that is critical to us.

這是一段漫長的旅程，但對我們來說至關重要。

So we've got different activities and levers that we are deploying to achieve our objectives.

因此，我們正在部署不同的活動和槓桿來實現我們的目標。

When you go to the in-app improvements, just an example that you mentioned, we are now working on a new app that we are going to deploy at the beginning of next year and the app and the captive portal.

當您談到應用程式內改進時，只是您提到的一個例子，我們現在正在開發一個新應用程序，我們將在明年初部署該應用程式以及該應用程式和強制門戶。

The captive portal is where you go if you are a prepaid and you finish your credits.

如果您是預付費用戶並完成了積分，則可以前往強制入口網站。

These captive portal is already being implemented this year and the app with a much simpler interface and the better flow is going to be implementing at the beginning of next year.

這些強制門戶已於今年實施，具有更簡單介面和更好流程的應用程式將於明年初實施。

So this is part of our strategies and trigger a part and we are quite committed to it.

所以這是我們戰略的一部分，也是觸發的一部分，我們非常致力於它。

Just for you to have a reference, NPS, it's part of the management of the short-term incentive of all the leadership team.

僅供大家參考，NPS，是所有領導團隊短期激勵管理的一部分。

And -- or professionally in our company.

以及——或者說是我們公司的專業人士。

So it's quite an important KPI.

所以這是一個非常重要的KPI。

When you go to the second question which is related to the pure mobile approach, I think that this is something that like FWA, every year, we check and recheck.

當你談到與純移動方法相關的第二個問題時，我認為這就像 FWA 一樣，每年我們都會檢查並重新檢查。

And the convergence today in Brazil, it's a sort of limited in scope and in intensity depending on the segment where this intended to and the geographical scope of it.

今天在巴西的融合，其範圍和強度都有限，具體取決於其目標細分市場及其地理範圍。

At the end of the day, 65% of the broadband market is in the hands on fiber of somebody that don't have a mobile -- a value proposition.

歸根結底，65% 的寬頻市場都掌握在沒有行動裝置的光纖用戶手中——這是一個價值主張。

So it's offer driven by some players but this player represents 35% of the overall offer.

因此，它的報價是由一些玩家驅動的，但該玩家佔整體報價的 35%。

When you look at the potential results of -- or a potential difference in results of a pure post-paid versus a convergent approach, I think it's important to mention that we are growing our post-paid customer base faster than the market leader.

當您考慮純後付費與融合方法的潛在結果或結果的潛在差異時，我認為重要的是要提到我們的後付費客戶群成長速度比市場領導者更快。

And so we don't see any slowdown in that.

所以我們沒有看到這方面有任何放緩。

And when you look at churn, we are delivering the best churn ever.

當您觀察客戶流失率時，您會發現我們正在提供有史以來最好的客戶流失率。

So from an overall strategic point of view, I don't think this is something that is impacting us now.

因此，從整體策略角度來看，我認為這不會對我們產生影響。

And from a results point of view, I just confirm what I said.

從結果的角度來看，我只是證實了我所說的。

Lucca Brendim, Bank of America.

盧卡·布倫丁，美國銀行。

I have two here from my side.

我這邊有兩個。

The first one, usually working capital has a positive dynamic for TIM in the fourth quarter.

第一個因素，通常是營運資金，在第四季度對 TIM 產生正面的影響。

I just wanted to confirm if that will be the case in a similar manner this year as well?

我只是想確認今年是否也會出現類似的情況？

And the second one, you had a very strong performance in other mobile revenues.

第二，你們在其他行動收入的表現非常強勁。

This quarter, it was up more than 20% year-over-year.

本季年增超過20%。

You mentioned it was related mostly to some IoT projects.

您提到它主要與一些物聯網專案有關。

So we wanted to understand a little bit if that is something recurring.

所以我們想了解一下這種情況是否會反覆出現。

Is that a one-off?

那是一次性的嗎？

And if there are other initiatives in this line that could be helping results going forward?

在這方面是否還有其他措施可以幫助取得成果？

Okay.

好的。

Lucca, so let me start from the second one because you sort of -- you already gave the answer also besides the question.

盧卡，所以讓我從第二個開始，因為除了問題之外，你已經給了答案。

So other is something that is there to stay.

所以其他的東西是要留下來的。

It's intentional and it's part of our strategy.

這是有意為之的，也是我們策略的一部分。

So when you go to others, you have a number of things inside like the customer platforms strategy, the IoT strategy.

因此，當你去找其他人時，你會發現很多東西，例如客戶平台策略、物聯網策略。

We discussed, I think it was the first quarter, the roaming revenues that, by the way, are coming because we have a better position in post-paid.

順便說一句，我們討論了漫遊收入，我認為這是第一季的情況，因為我們在後付費方面擁有更好的地位。

So it's something that is growing.

所以它是一種正在成長的東西。

It needs to grow, its intentional and will keep growing.

它需要成長，這是有意的，並且會繼續成長。

This is for the second question.

這是針對第二個問題。

For the first question, when you look at the -- our dynamics, I would say it depends on what KPI you are looking at.

對於第一個問題，當您查看我們的動態時，我想說這取決於您正在查看的 KPI。

So we are trying to balance revenue growth, margin expansion and free cash flow growth.

因此，我們正在努力平衡收入成長、利潤率擴張和自由現金流成長。

So we will see in the fourth quarter, the same dynamics happening and this is -- basically, we are talking about revenue growing above inflation and margin expanding and free cash flow growing.

因此，我們將在第四季度看到同樣的動態發生，基本上，我們正​​在談論收入成長高於通膨、利潤率擴張和自由現金流成長。

When it goes specifically to the revenue dynamics, what is likely to happen at this point in time is that you will see what we are seeing today.

當具體到收入動態時，此時可能發生的情況是，您將看到我們今天所看到的情況。

So we will see the post-paid performing well.

所以我們會看到後付費表現良好。

The others keep growing and the prepaid sort of going sideways.

其他業務不斷成長，而預付費業務卻在橫行。

I think it's going to be a tough comparison because in the last quarter of 2023, we priced up and so the -- our prepaid revenue line is likely to perform sideline on a -- sideline is probably not the right because there is some seasonality in the first quarter in November and December.

我認為這將是一個艱難的比較，因為在 2023 年最後一個季度，我們定價較高，因此，我們的預付費收入線可能會在副業上表現不佳，因為存在一些季節性。 11 月和12 月。

But nonetheless, we got a difficult comparison because we priced up prepaid in the last quarter of 2023.

但儘管如此，我們還是很難進行比較，因為我們在 2023 年最後一個季度提高了預付費價格。

Relates to the working capital, we have this particular dynamic that in the first half of the year, we have a negative working capital, in the second -- second half, we have a positive.

與營運資本相關，我們有一個特殊的動態，在今年上半年，我們的營運資本為負，而在下半年，我們的營運資本為正。

So this has always been like this.

所以一直都是這樣。

And I confirm that the fourth quarter will have a positive working capital.

我確認第四季將有積極的營運資金。

If you look it from the first one to the fourth, we're coming -- increased the working capital.

如果你從第一個到第四個看，我們來了——增加了營運資金。

This is, like I mentioned, related to our dynamic, especially the dynamic with our major suppliers.

正如我所提到的，這與我們的動態有關，尤其是與我們主要供應商的動態有關。

Carlos Sequeira, BTG Pactual.

卡洛斯·塞奎拉 (Carlos Sequeira)，BTG Pactual。

I have a few questions.

我有幾個問題。

One on pricing.

一是關於定價。

Alberto, you mentioned that the price points of the controlled package, they are very similar between (inaudible) and that's true.

阿爾貝托，您提到受控軟體包的價格點非常相似（聽不清楚），這是事實。

But then came Nubank and made an offer that is like BRL10 lower than the cheapest one out there.

但隨後 Nubank 提出了比最便宜的報價低 10 雷亞爾左右的報價。

So my question is, do you think this price point -- usually control plans, especially the entry-level clients, they're price-sensitive, right?

所以我的問題是，你認為這個價格點——通常是控制計劃，尤其是入門級客戶，他們對價格敏感，對嗎？

Do you think this price at like BRL10 less would be enough to like change the price dynamics going forward?

您認為 10 雷亞爾左右的價格是否足以改變未來的價格動態？

I mean how do you see that evolving?

我的意思是你如何看待這種演變？

I know maybe it is too early, I don't know but just how you think about now that we have this new guy out there.

我知道也許現在還太早，我不知道，但現在我們有了這個新人，你會怎麼想。

I know we have to blame card on that but anyway, it is what it is.

我知道我們必須將此歸咎於卡，但無論如何，事情就是這樣。

So if you look at -- if you do the comparison like BRL60 versus BRL45, of course, or BRL55 versus BRL45, there is a difference.

因此，如果您進行比較，例如 BRL60 與 BRL45，或 BRL55 與 BRL45，就會發現差異。

Now I think that as always is life, you have different customer groups.

現在我認為生活一如既往，有不同的客戶群。

And so you got people that value the more-for-more strategy.

因此，人們重視「多換多」策略。

So the offers are not quite comparable because if you look at the BRL55 offers, you go there are bundles like the Netflix bundle that I was just mentioning.

因此，這些優惠並不具有可比性，因為如果您查看 55 巴西雷亞爾的優惠，您會發現有一些捆綁包，例如我剛才提到的 Netflix 捆綁包。

And so there is extra value there and we know that customer is like that.

所以那裡有額外的價值，我們知道客戶就是這樣。

Of course, there are a subset of customers that are more sensitive to price.

當然，有一部分客戶對價格更敏感。

And for these customers, this sort of offer might be appealing.

對於這些客戶來說，這種優惠可能很有吸引力。

But Carlos, you need to remember that we are comparing a BTL offer to what we call front book office offer.

但是卡洛斯，您需要記住，我們正在將 BTL 報價與我們所說的前台預訂報價進行比較。

We do have BTL offer.

我們有 BTL 報價。

So, when you migrate the prepaid to a control plan, you don't move it from BRL30 to BRL60 or BRL55 because the step is too big.

因此，當您將預付費轉移到控制計劃時，您不會將其從 30 雷亞爾轉移到 60 雷亞爾或 55 雷亞爾，因為步幅太大。

So you've got a number of offers in between there.

所以你在這之間有很多優惠。

And therefore, this -- I think it's fair to compare BTL with BTL.

因此，我認為將 BTL 與 BTL 進行比較是公平的。

And if you do that, the gap is not that big.

如果你這樣做的話，差距就不會那麼大了。

And therefore, we will need to see how these play off.

因此，我們需要看看它們如何發揮作用。

For the time being, the scope is quite limited.

就目前而言，範圍還相當有限。

If you are a customer, you want to change, you can make a number portability, it's quite a difficult process.

如果你是客戶，你想換號，你可以進行號碼攜號轉網，這是一個相當困難的過程。

You don't make a number portability, you need to call.

您不進行號碼攜帶，您需要撥打電話。

When you call, we know what to do.

當您致電時，我們知道該怎麼做。

So, I don't think that with what we have on the table today, the pricing dynamics will change.

因此，我認為就我們今天所討論的情況而言，定價動態不會改變。

No, perfect.

不，完美。

Okay.

好的。

And another question that I always wonder too is, I mean, you're growing top line super-nice above inflation for several quarters which is amazing.

我也一直想知道的另一個問題是，我的意思是，您的收入成長連續幾個季度都高於通貨膨脹，這真是太棒了。

We know how tough it is to grow above inflation in the sector.

我們知道該行業的成長要高於通膨是多麼困難。

But then there are other maybe bigger growth opportunities out there or maybe broadband or B2B.

但還有其他可能更大的成長機會，或者可能是寬頻或 B2B。

How are you seeing these opportunities going forward?

您如何看待這些未來的機會？

I think how meaningful you think that can be?

我想你認為這有多有意義？

So, let's talk -- both the two that you mentioned, they are both meaningful.

那麼，我們來談談──你提到的這兩個，都很有意義。

So let's start with the B2B one.

那麼就讓我們從 B2B 開始吧。

So the B2B one, if you look at the contracted revenues, we are accelerating quite fast.

因此，在 B2B 方面，如果你看看合約收入，我們的加速速度相當快。

We have a robust pipeline.

我們擁有強大的管道。

We've got a lot of actions going on.

我們正在進行很多行動。

We identified nice verticals where we moved first, we got some kind of advantage.

我們首先確定了一些不錯的垂直領域，我們獲得了某種優勢。

And when you look at that, you have the organic opportunity and you have the opportunity to enhance our set of capabilities to capture a wider set of the B2B revenues.

當你看到這一點時，你會發現有機機會，並且有機會增強我們的一系列能力，以獲取更廣泛的 B2B 收入。

And this could go, as we said on our Investor Day and in many meetings through organic growth which is material and nonorganic growth also to enhance the set of capabilities that will allow us to provide a larger portfolio.

正如我們在投資者日和許多會議上所說，透過有機成長（物質成長和非有機成長），這種成長也可以增強我們能夠提供更大投資組合的能力。

So on B2B, I think the answer is quite straightforward.

所以對於B2B，我認為答案非常簡單。

It is important for us.

這對我們來說很重要。

It's an important pillar of our strategy we are pursuing it with assertiveness and we want to succeed in that.

這是我們策略的重要支柱，我們正在堅定地追求它，我們希望在這方面取得成功。

When you go to broadband, the answer is a bit more complex because you have a marketplace which is quite competitive.

當您使用寬頻時，答案會稍微複雜一些，因為您擁有一個競爭相當激烈的市場。

It keeps being competitive.

它一直保持競爭力。

And as a matter of fact, competition is expanding because you have two levels of competition.

事實上，競爭正在擴大，因為有兩個層面的競爭。

You've got the national level, whereby everybody is sort of stable with the entry with a price at around BRL100 per subscription.

你已經有了國家級的服務，每個人的訂閱價格都在 100 巴西雷亞爾左右，每個人的訂閱價格都比較穩定。

But when you go on the regional level, you have a number of municipalities where the price competition is quite strong and you see prices going down to BRL50 or something like that.

但當你從地區層面來看，你會發現許多城市的價格競爭非常激烈，你會看到價格下降到 50 巴西雷亞爾或類似的價格。

Then the number of places where this is happening is increasing.

然後發生這種情況的地方越來越多。

So you have a situation whereby the market environment is not attractive because of a lot of competition that is pressure in churn and ARPU.

因此，您會遇到這樣的情況，即市場環境不具吸引力，因為激烈的競爭給客戶流失率和 ARPU 帶來了壓力。

So the point is we, of course, have the opportunity to grow in a space where we have 2% market share but the time is not right now to accelerate and that's the reason we maintain our sales selective and when it comes to nonorganic opportunities, they need to have a strategic fit at the right price.

所以重點是，我們當然有機會在擁有 2% 市場份額的領域實現增長，但現在還不是加速的時候，這就是我們保持銷售選擇性的原因，當談到非有機機會時，他們需要以合適的價格進行戰略調整。

So it's something that I think it's less relevant in the short term versus the B2B focus that I just mentioned.

因此，我認為與我剛才提到的 B2B 重點相比，它在短期內不太重要。

Perfect.

完美的。

That's very clear.

這非常清楚。

And if I may, one last question on CapEx for sales.

如果可以的話，我想問最後一個關於銷售資本支出的問題。

And it has been falling quarter after quarter, year after year, right?

而且它逐季逐年、逐年下降，對嗎？

I mean we've been seeing that happening, not only (inaudible) other companies or other geographies as well.

我的意思是，我們已經看到這種情況正在發生，不僅是（聽不清楚）其他公司或其他地區。

In your case, you're probably this year, maybe CapEx sales will be a little higher than 17%, somewhere between 17%, 17.5%.

就您而言，今年的資本支出銷售額可能會略高於 17%，介於 17% 至 17.5% 之間。

How low do you think you can get?

你認為你能得到多低？

I mean, looking longer term, right?

我的意思是，著眼長遠，對嗎？

I mean can it be like around 15%?

我的意思是大約15%左右可以嗎？

What is the number that you think it's a reasonable number for CapEx to sales going forward, please?

您認為未來資本支出與銷售額比合理的數字是多少？

I know it's not a direct question it can be anything but some idea.

我知道這不是一個直接的問題，它可以是任何東西，但只是一些想法。

Well, Carlos, it's, so the floor -- if you see -- I remember that a couple of years ago, we were discussing with investors where it's very difficult to go below 20% and we went below 20%.

嗯，卡洛斯，所以底線——如果你看到的話——我記得幾年前，我們正在與投資者討論，很難低於 20%，而我們低於 20%。

And now we closed 18.9%.

現在我們收盤上漲 18.9%。

We are going down this year another point likely, we see that our CapEx are quite under control.

今年我們可能會再下降一點，我們看到我們的資本支出得到了很好的控制。

So when we look at CapEx, you got the situation whereby we want to deploy our CapEx and we want to maintain our lead in terms of network quality and reliability.

因此，當我們考慮資本支出時，您會發現我們希望部署資本支出，並且希望在網路品質和可靠性方面保持領先地位。

And so we want to do both things together.

所以我們想一起做這兩件事。

And it's playing quite nicely on our side because in terms of coverage, we sort of did a big chunk of the job already because we are the only operator with 100 municipality covered with 4G.

它在我們這邊表現得非常好，因為就覆蓋範圍而言，我們已經做了很大一部分工作，因為我們是唯一一家擁有 100 個城市覆蓋 4G 的運營商。

The second one, I think it's -- if you are a 5,570 municipality.

我認為第二個是──如果你是人口 5,570 的城市。

The second one, I think, is 4,900.

我認為第二個是 4,900。

So there is a big gap.

所以差距很大。

On 5G, we are deploying faster.

在5G方面，我們的部署速度更快。

And so everything that we are doing is to increase quality and we are doing it.

因此，我們所做的一切都是為了提高質量，我們正在這樣做。

We are managing to keep a lead and with the last negotiation that we had with our vendors, we have an extra bundle of security that the intensity that we have today it's good to increase and to maintain a competitive advantage as we have today.

我們正在設法保持領先地位，並且透過與供應商的最後一次談判，我們獲得了額外的安全保障，我們今天擁有的強度有利於增加並保持我們今天擁有的競爭優勢。

And we didn't have this in the past.

而我們過去沒有這個。

So it's more an effort of communicating this to the customer base rather than delivery delivering it on a technical point of view.

因此，更多的是向客戶群傳達這一點，而不是從技術角度交付它。

So to make the story short, basically, we see our CapEx constant over the next years with revenue growing.

簡而言之，我們預計未來幾年我們的資本支出將保持不變，而收入將持續成長。

And so if you do the math, you would see that the ratio will keep going down in the next -- in the medium term in the next two to three years.

因此，如果你計算一下，你會發現這個比率將在未來兩到三年的中期繼續下降。

And so I don't see significant risk that may derail this trend.

因此，我認為不存在可能破壞這一趨勢的重大風險。

(Operator Instructions)

（操作員說明）

Gabriel Gusan, Citi.

加布里埃爾古桑，花旗銀行。

A quick one on my side.

我這邊很快。

Kind of inverting the question from Carlos on broadband.

有點顛倒了卡洛斯關於寬頻的問題。

If it doesn't make sense to invest and grow more in this market, would it make sense to sell this operation to someone else help to leverage the parent company, specialty dividends and things like this?

如果在這個市場上進行更多投資和成長沒有意義，那麼將這項業務出售給其他人是否有意義，以幫助利用母公司、特殊股息和類似的東西？

Today, we've got an optionality at the end of the day, right?

今天，我們最終有一個選擇，對嗎？

So we have -- we are a telco player, we have 2%.

所以我們——我們是一家電信公司，我們有 2%。

So we've got a quite credible brand.

所以我們有一個相當可信的品牌。

We've got a huge customer base.

我們擁有龐大的客戶群。

We've got a quite widespread commercial network.

我們擁有相當廣泛的商業網絡。

So if you look at broadband, it's an adjacency that we might -- we might pursue with, I would say, with sort of ease given our set of competencies.

因此，如果你看看寬頻，你會發現，鑑於我們的能力，我們可能會輕鬆地追求寬頻。

So it's an optionality.

所以這是一個可選項。

If we get to the conclusion that broadband the current context that won't change, we may want to sell it.

如果我們得出寬頻當前環境不會改變的結論，我們可能會想賣掉它。

But at the end of the day, as if we don't see from a consolidating point of view, quite an attractive market that would be valid for selling as well.

但歸根究底，似乎我們沒有從整合的角度來看，這是一個相當有吸引力的市場，也適合出售。

So we see the market consolidating in the future.

因此，我們看到未來市場將會整合。

On the service co level and on the network co level and we believe that we can play a part on it.

在服務公司層面和網路公司層面，我們相信我們可以在其中發揮作用。

And if we change demand in terms of -- we don't want to play part on it, the sell could be an option.

如果我們改變需求——我們不想參與其中，那麼出售可能是一種選擇。

Ladies and gentlemen, since there are no further questions, I will turn the floor to Mr. Alberto Griselli for his final remarks.

女士們、先生們，既然沒有其他問題了，我現在請阿爾貝托·格里塞利先生作最後發言。

Please, Mr. Alberto, you may proceed.

阿爾貝托先生，請繼續。

So everybody, thanks for staying with us today.

謝謝大家今天和我們在一起。

So we are nine months into the year, we have been delivering across the board in terms of revenue growing above inflation, margin expansion, expanding at EBITDA level, EBIT after lease level and the free cash flow level.

今年九個月以來，我們在營收成長高於通膨、利潤率擴張、EBITDA 水準、租賃後息稅前利潤水準和自由現金流水準方面全面實現了目標。

We got a sound strategy going forward.

我們制定了完善的未來策略。

We've got two months to go to finalize this year's results.

我們還有兩個月的時間來敲定今年的結果。

I want to thank the entire team for the efforts so far and the last couple of months to conclude 2024 according to our plans.

我要感謝整個團隊迄今為止以及過去幾個月為按照我們的計劃結束 2024 年所做的努力。

Thank you, everybody.

謝謝大家。

This does conclude the third quarter of 2024 conference call of TIM SA.

TIM SA 2024 年第三季電話會議至此結束。

For further information and details of the company, please access our website at tim.com.br/ir. You can now disconnect.

如欲了解更多資訊和公司詳情，請造訪我們的網站：tim.com.br/ir。您現在可以斷開連線。

And thank you once again.

並再次感謝您。