Companhia de Saneamento Basico do Estado de Sao Paulo - SABESP (SBS) 2026 Q1 法說會逐字稿

Good morning, and welcome to SABESP's fourth quarter of 2026 earnings presentation. With us here today are Carlos Piani, CEO; Daniel Szlak, CFO; and Thiago Levi, Investor Relations. Before we begin, we clarify that the statements made during this presentation will not include projections or estimates of future events. However, they may contain forward-looking statements indicating potential trends related to SABESP based on reasonable expectations, beliefs and assumptions of SABESP's management as of today.

各位早安，歡迎參加 SABESP 2026 年第四季財報簡報。今天與會者包括執行長 Carlos Piani、財務長 Daniel Szlak，以及投資人關係 Thiago Levi。在開始之前，我們說明本次簡報中的陳述不包含對未來事件的預測或估計。然而，其中可能包含前瞻性陳述，基於 SABESP 管理層截至今日之合理預期、信念與假設，指出與 SABESP 相關的潛在趨勢。

These statements involve risks and uncertainties and are based on assumptions and factors such as market, regulatory and economic conditions, which may not materialize in addition to the risk factors disclosed in SABESP's filings with the Brazilian Securities and Exchange Commission, B3 and on its Investor Relations website.

這些陳述涉及風險與不確定性，並以市場、監管與經濟狀況等假設與因素為基礎；除 SABESP 向巴西證券交易委員會、B3 以及其投資人關係網站所揭露之風險因素外，上述假設與因素亦可能不會實現。

Investors should understand that change in such factors may lead to outcomes that differ from current trends and that undue reliance should not be placed on these statements. The full disclaimer will be presented next and must be read carefully by all participants. This presentation is being recorded. (Operator Instructions). I will now turn the floor over to Daniel Szlak, who will discuss the results. Daniel, you may proceed.

投資人應理解，這些因素的變動可能導致結果與目前趨勢不同，且不應過度依賴此等陳述。完整免責聲明將於下一頁呈現，所有與會者務必仔細閱讀。本次簡報將進行錄音。（接線員指示）。接下來我將把時間交給 Daniel Szlak 介紹本季結果。Daniel，請開始。

Thanks, operator. Good morning, everyone, and thank you for joining us for SABESP's First Quarter 2026 Earnings Call. I'm Daniel Szlak, CFO, and I'll present our operational and financial highlights for the quarter, after which, I'll hand the call over to our CEO, Carlos Piani, to update you on our progress. We will then open the floor for the Q&A.

謝謝接線員。各位早安，感謝各位參加 SABESP 2026 年第一季法說會。我是財務長 Daniel Szlak，將先說明本季營運與財務重點，之後把電話交給我們的執行長 Carlos Piani，向各位更新我們的進展。接著我們將開放問答。

Before I begin, I would also like to clarify that all the numbers in this presentation are SABESP only and do not include MI's figures. For this first quarter, we have only consolidated the balance sheet. In the first quarter of 2026, total water production reached 778 million cubic meters, 4.6% lower versus a year ago. This decline reflects a milder summer with average temperatures 3.3 degrees Celsius lower than last year as well as the application of SCP Agua's operational rule of benight pressure management implemented for approximately 10 hours per day to enhance the system resilience.

在開始之前，我也要澄清，本簡報中的所有數字僅包含 SABESP，不包含 MI 的數據。本第一季我們僅合併資產負債表。2026 年第一季總供水產量達 7.78 億立方公尺，較去年同期下降 4.6%。此下滑反映夏季較為溫和，平均氣溫較去年低 3.3°C，亦反映 SCP Agua 所採行之夜間壓力管理（benight pressure management）營運規則的應用，每日約實施 10 小時，以提升系統韌性。

Our active customer base remains stable with about 9.5 million water and 8.2 million sewage connections. The slight year on year reduction is primarily driven by increased revenue assurance actions and the verticalization of the cities in which we operate. Excluding the impact of such actions, water connection would have remained flat year over year, while sewage active connections would have increased by approximately 0.2%.

我們的有效客戶基礎維持穩定，約有 950 萬個供水連接與 820 萬個污水連接。年對年小幅下降主要來自加強營收保障（revenue assurance）行動，以及我們營運城市的垂直化發展。若排除上述行動的影響，供水連接數將與去年同期持平，而污水有效連接數將約增加 0.2%。

We continue to prioritize service quality and operational reliability for the nearly 30 million customers, ensuring consistent water supply and sewage services, even amid varying weather conditions and operational challenges. Turning to our financial performance. Adjusted net revenue for the first quarter of 2026 was BRL6 billion, an increase of 11% year on year. Adjusted EBITDA was BRL3.8 billion, up 26% versus the year ago, reaching 62.9% margin, a significant expansion from where we were a year ago. This higher margin illustrates the impact of our continued efficiency efforts and disciplined cost control to free up resources for our CapEx plan.

我們持續優先確保近 3,000 萬名客戶的服務品質與營運可靠性，即使在不同天候條件與營運挑戰下，仍能提供穩定的供水與污水服務。接著看財務表現。2026 年第一季調整後淨營收為 60 億巴西雷亞爾（BRL），年增 11%。調整後 EBITDA 為 38 億 BRL，較去年同期成長 26%，EBITDA 利潤率達 62.9%，相較一年前顯著擴張。較高的利潤率顯示我們持續推動效率提升與嚴謹成本控管的成效，以釋放資源支持資本支出（CapEx）計畫。

Adjusted net income was BRL1.5 billion, growing 32% year over year, supported by improved operating results and lower spreads in our debt stack. Before we deep dive into the operating performance, let me briefly walk you through the reconciliation between reported and adjusted figures, same as we did in previous quarters.

調整後淨利為 15 億 BRL，年增 32%，主要受惠於營運成果改善以及我們債務結構中利差下降。在深入探討營運表現之前，我先簡要說明報表數與調整後數字之間的調節方式，與前幾季相同。

As usual, we exclude construction revenues for which we don't book any margin and the financial assets, which are merely accounting requirements and do not reflect in our view, the underlying operations of the business. In addition, during the quarter, we incurred BRL16 million of one-off M&A expenses.

一如往常，我們排除建造收入（construction revenues），因為該部分不認列任何利潤；同時排除金融資產（financial assets），其僅為會計要求，且在我們看來不反映業務的核心營運。此外，本季我們發生一次性併購（M&A）費用 1,600 萬 BRL。

Adjusted net revenue grew 11% year on year in Q1, driven by three main factors. First, price contributed 12%. This reflects the last tariff increase implemented in January with a 9.1% phasing from last year's bills invoiced in 2026. It also reflects an additional 2.8% gain from commercial initiatives, particularly the termination of large client contracts.

第一季調整後淨營收年增 11%，主要由三項因素驅動。第一，價格貢獻 12%。這反映 1 月實施的最新費率調整，以及去年帳單在 2026 年入帳所帶來的 9.1% 分期影響。同時也反映商業措施帶來的額外 2.8% 增益，特別是終止大型客戶合約。

Second, volume was up 2.4%. While the expansion of the customer base contributed 2.9%, this was partially offset by temperature effects that drove consumption per capita down 0.6%. Finally, mix reduced revenue by 3.4%, reflecting the expansion of subsidized tariff programs year over year. These programs now benefit more than 2 million connections and remain a key mechanism to ensure access to basic sanitation services at affordable prices for underprivileged communities. While this affects revenue mix in the short term, it is fully aligned with our social mandate and is covered within the regulatory framework.

第二，銷量成長 2.4%。客戶基礎擴張貢獻 2.9%，但部分被氣溫因素抵銷，使人均用量下降 0.6%。最後，組合（mix）使營收減少 3.4%，反映補貼費率方案年對年擴大。這些方案目前惠及超過 200 萬個連接戶，仍是確保弱勢社群以可負擔價格取得基本衛生服務的重要機制。雖然短期內會影響營收組合，但完全符合我們的社會使命，且已納入監管架構之中。

On the next slide, we deep dive into some of the aspects supporting the revenue performance. The price index, excluding mix effects, remained stable with a 9.1% increase driven by the January tariff adjustment. On the social front, the number of connections benefiting from subsidized tariffs surpassed 2 million. While this was virtually stable quarter on quarter, it represents a 23% increase year over year. This expansion reinforces SABESP's role in promoting social inclusion while continuing to broaden service coverage in a financially sustainable manner.

下一頁我們將深入說明支撐營收表現的部分因素。排除組合影響後的價格指數維持穩定，受 1 月費率調整帶動，上升 9.1%。在社會面向方面，受惠於補貼費率的連接戶數已超過 200 萬。雖然季對季幾乎持平，但年對年增加 23%。此一擴張強化 SABESP 促進社會包容的角色，同時以財務可持續的方式持續擴大服務覆蓋。

Moving to EBITDA. Adjusted figures grew 26% to BRL3.8 billion. This was underpinned by higher revenue and cost efficiency across multiple areas. G&A saw a gain from a $30 million past due settlement with one of our cities and generally tighter cost discipline. Cower went down largely from an increase in mix with the free market now representing 86% of total consumption. Personnel costs have declined as a reflect of our workforce restructuring.

接著看 EBITDA。調整後 EBITDA 成長 26% 至 38 億 BRL，主要受惠於營收提升以及多個領域的成本效率。管理與一般費用（G&A）受惠於與其中一個城市達成 3,000 萬美元的逾期款項和解，以及整體更嚴格的成本紀律。電力成本（Cower）下降，主要因組合變化，自由市場目前占總用量的 86%。人事成本因人力結構調整而下降。

The average workforce in Q1 '26 reduced 13% compared to the year ago to 8,800 employees. With revenues up and costs well contained, our EBITDA margin expanded to 63%, freeing up resources for our ambitious CapEx plan.

2026 年第一季平均員工數較去年同期減少 13%，至 8,800 人。在營收成長且成本控制得宜的情況下，我們的 EBITDA 利潤率擴張至 63%，釋放資源以支持我們具雄心的 CapEx 計畫。

Now deep diving into personnel, we saw a reduction of 26% year over year, which reflects a combination of a 13% headcount reduction and a gain in workforce job and salary mix. These structural measures more than offset the 5.5% wage inflation applied during the period. Reported net income was BRL1.7 billion for the quarter, up 18% from BRL1.5 billion in the year ago. The substantial EBITDA growth more than offset an increase in net financial expenses, which rose as expected due to higher interest rates and our higher average debt to fund the CapEx program. These effects were partially offset by a lower income tax expense aided by the deduction from interest on capital payments in the quarter.

進一步看人事方面，我們年對年下降 26%，反映 13% 的人數縮減，以及職務與薪酬組合改善所帶來的效益。這些結構性措施足以抵銷期間 5.5% 的薪資通膨調整。本季報表淨利為 17 億 BRL，較去年同期的 15 億 BRL 成長 18%。EBITDA 的大幅成長，足以抵銷淨財務費用增加；淨財務費用如預期上升，原因是利率較高，以及為資助 CapEx 計畫而提高的平均負債水準。上述影響部分被較低的所得稅費用所抵銷，主要受惠於本季資本利息（interest on capital）支付的扣抵。

Our transformation is most visible in the acceleration of the investment program. In the first quarter alone, CapEx reached BRL3.7 billion, up 31% year on year. This strong start to the year puts us well on track to achieve our ambitious plan. We have already delivered a large portion of our multiyear universal access targets as of Q1. We have fulfilled 87% of our water connection goal, 77% of our sewage collection goal and 71% of our sewage treatment target for the years of '24 through '26.

我們的轉型最明顯體現在投資計畫加速推進。僅第一季，CapEx 即達 37 億 BRL，年增 31%。今年強勁的開局使我們有望如期達成具雄心的計畫。截至第一季，我們已完成多年期普及接取目標中的大部分：在 2024 至 2026 年期間，我們已達成供水連接目標的 87%、污水收集目標的 77%，以及污水處理目標的 71%。

Moving to the next slide. Our major projects are advancing as planned. For example, under our Countryside Universal Access program, Phase 1 is underway with 11 projects involving $5 billion of investments already in execution phase. And earlier this year, we launched the Phase 2 tenders for additional eight projects, totaling another $5.4 billion in investments.

接著看下一頁。我們的重大專案正按計畫推進。例如，在「鄉村普及接取」（Countryside Universal Access）計畫下，第 1 期已啟動，包含 11 個專案，總投資 50 億美元，且已進入執行階段。今年稍早，我們也啟動第 2 期招標，新增 8 個專案，合計再投入 54 億美元。

We made further advances in the Integra Tietê program with the expansion of the Barueri sewage treatment plant, a BRL5.7 billion project that will boost the plant's capacity by 41%, benefiting about 4 million people by 2029. Turning now to our balance sheet. Our leverage ratios remain controlled even as we ramp up investments. At the end of March, net debt stood at BRL32.5 billion. Our average cost of debt remains low at roughly the benchmark rate, and we have extended our average debt maturity to 6.3 years. It's worth highlighting that 64% of our debt now matures in 2031 or later, reflecting our proactive efforts to push out maturity post universal access and lock in long-term financing.

我們在 Integra Tietê 計畫亦取得進一步進展，包括擴建 Barueri 污水處理廠；該專案投資額為 57 億 BRL，將使該廠產能提升 41%，預計至 2029 年可惠及約 400 萬人。接著看資產負債表。即使我們加大投資，槓桿比率仍維持可控。截至 3 月底，淨負債為 325 億 BRL。我們的平均負債成本仍維持在約等同基準利率的低水準，且平均到期年限已延長至 6.3 年。值得強調的是，目前 64% 的債務到期日在 2031 年或之後，反映我們在普及接取目標之後主動延後到期結構並鎖定長期融資的努力。

We also maintain a very strong liquidity position, BRL19.2 billion in cash at quarter end, which is sufficient to cover over five years of debt service. Our solid capital structure and balance sheet provides ample flexibility to continue executing our investment plan while safeguarding our financial stability. Finally, looking at our key financial ratios, net debt to adjusted EBITDA was 2.4% at the end of the quarter, still at a very comfortable level given our robust cash generation and long-term debt profile. Our profitability metrics remained strong and stable with a trailing ROIC of 11% and ROE about 17%, combining both growth with profitability.

我們也維持非常強勁的流動性部位，季末現金達1,920億雷亞爾（BRL19.2 billion），足以覆蓋超過五年的債務償付。我們穩健的資本結構與資產負債表，提供充足彈性，使我們能在維護財務穩定的同時，持續推進投資計畫。最後，從關鍵財務比率來看，季末淨負債對調整後EBITDA為2.4%，在我們強勁的現金創造能力與長期債務結構支撐下，仍處於非常舒適的水準。我們的獲利能力指標依然強勁且穩定，過去十二個月（TTM）ROIC為11%，ROE約17%，兼具成長與獲利。

With that, I will now hand over the call to Mr. Carlos Piani, our CEO, to discuss our strategic priorities and recent developments.

接下來，我將把電話會議交給我們的執行長Carlos Piani先生，請他說明我們的策略重點與近期進展。

Thanks, Daniel. Good morning, everyone, and thank you for joining the call. I will now provide an update on the strategic and operational progress achieved during the first quarter of 2026.

謝謝你，Daniel。各位早安，感謝大家參與本次電話會議。我現在將就2026年第一季在策略與營運方面所取得的進展提供最新資訊。

Turning to slide 17. You can see a summary of the key accomplishments across the four strategic pillars we presented at our Investor Day last April, quality, profitability, growth and society. Starting with growth and our universalization agenda, we maintained the strong investment pace established last year.

請看第17頁投影片。您可以看到我們在去年四月投資人日所提出的四大策略支柱——品質、獲利、成長與社會——之關鍵成果摘要。先從成長與普及化（universalization）議程談起，我們維持了去年建立的強勁投資步調。

CapEx reached BRL3.8 billion in the first quarter, approximately 31% higher year over year, clearly demonstrating our execution capacity and ability to accelerate project delivery. Visibility also remains high with a CapEx backlog of BRL39.8 billion from April 2026 through 2029, providing a solid foundation to sustain this investment cycle over the coming years.

第一季資本支出（CapEx）達38億雷亞爾，年增約31%，清楚展現我們的執行能力與加速專案交付的能力。投資能見度亦維持高水準，2026年4月至2029年的資本支出待執行量（backlog）為398億雷亞爾，為未來數年延續此投資循環提供堅實基礎。

Turning to profitability and operational efficiency. As discussed during our fourth quarter 2025 earnings call, we have substantially closed the historic gap related to discounts granted to large clients. At this stage, 80% of the related injunctions have been rolled in SABESP's favor, reinforcing both revenue quality and regulatory alignment. We also continue advancing our infrastructure modernization agenda with installation of 326,000 meters during the quarter, a 51% increase year over year. This initiative is expected to contribute to lower losses, greater billing accuracy and improve operational efficiency over time.

接著談獲利能力與營運效率。如同我們在2025年第四季法說會所討論的，我們已大幅縮小過去針對大型客戶所提供折扣的歷史落差。目前，相關禁制令（injunctions）中有80%已判定對SABESP有利，進一步強化營收品質與監管一致性。我們也持續推進基礎設施現代化議程，本季安裝了326,000具水表，年增51%。預期此舉將隨時間帶來更低的漏損、更高的計費準確性，並提升營運效率。

Collection performance also remained strong with a collection rate of 96.9% in the quarter, excluding court ordered debt payments. In digital transformation, the quarter was marked by the successful Go-live of SAP S/4HANA, a major milestone for the company. This implementation enhances agility, data quality and operational integration while also establishing an important foundation for the next phase of SABESP's transformation agenda.

收款表現同樣維持強勁，本季收款率為96.9%，不含法院命令的債務付款。在數位轉型方面，本季以SAP S/4HANA成功上線（Go-live）為重要里程碑。此一導入提升敏捷性、資料品質與營運整合，同時也為SABESP轉型議程下一階段奠定重要基礎。

On quality and customer experience, we continue to expand and strengthen our digital customer journey. Today, 10.5 million customers use our digital payment channels. Our WhatsApp platform continues to scale, averaging 2.8 million interactions per month while SABESP App maintains a strong 4.6 rating with approximately 1.5 million monthly interactions. At the same time, we're adapting our call center, branches and Bzman operations to a new commercial and operational reality. This includes redesigning processes, standardizing workflows and resizing teams to better match current demand volumes.

在品質與客戶體驗方面，我們持續擴展並強化數位客戶旅程。目前有1,050萬名客戶使用我們的數位支付渠道。我們的WhatsApp平台持續擴張，平均每月互動達280萬次；SABESP App亦維持4.6的高評分，每月互動約150萬次。同時，我們也在調整客服中心、營業據點與Bzman營運，以因應新的商業與營運現實，包括重新設計流程、標準化工作流程，以及調整團隊規模以更貼近目前的需求量。

Additional adjustments and improvements are planned for the coming quarters as we continue to enhance customer satisfaction and improve our Net Promoter Score.

未來幾季我們仍規劃進一步調整與改善，持續提升客戶滿意度並改善我們的淨推薦值（Net Promoter Score）。

Finally, on ESG, I would like to highlight two important achievements this quarter. Earlier this week, ISEP3 published its annual index composition and SABESP remains a member for the second consecutive year, reinforcing the strength of our ESG positioning in the Brazilian market. In addition, in January, we received a B rating in the CDP Climate Assessment, representing an improvement versus last year and reflecting continued advances in climate governance and environmental management. Taken together, these results demonstrate the consistency of our execution across all strategic pillars and reinforces our ability to deliver sustainable growth with quality, efficiency and positive social impact. Moving now to slide 18.

最後，在ESG方面，我想強調本季兩項重要成果。本週稍早，ISEP3公布其年度指數成分，SABESP連續第二年維持成分股身分，強化我們在巴西市場的ESG定位。此外，我們在1月於CDP氣候評估中獲得B級評等，較去年提升，反映我們在氣候治理與環境管理上的持續進展。綜合而言，這些成果展現我們在所有策略支柱上的執行一致性，並強化我們以品質、效率與正向社會影響實現永續成長的能力。接著請看第18頁投影片。

While we're making strong progress across priorities, it is equally important to remain transparent about the challenges ahead as we advance towards our 2029 commitments presented at Investor Day. Each year, this transformational journey brings a distinct set of priorities. In 2026, one of our main challenges is the implementation of the new regulatory accounting principles, including the new RAB methodology, which we expect to conclude by year-end. This is a complex but fundamental step to ensure greater transparency, consistency and alignment with the evolving regulatory framework.

雖然我們在各項優先事項上取得顯著進展，但在邁向投資人日所提出的2029年承諾之路上，同樣重要的是對未來挑戰保持透明。每一年，這段轉型旅程都會帶來不同的一組優先事項。2026年，我們的主要挑戰之一是導入新的監管會計原則，包括新的RAB方法論，我們預期將於年底前完成。這是一個複雜但關鍵的步驟，可確保更高的透明度、一致性，並與不斷演進的監管框架保持一致。

In this context, AE, our regulatory agency has launched a public consultation to discuss the new DRC methodology, and we intend to actively contribute to this process by submitting our recommendations by May 13 of this year. Successful delivery on this milestone will be critical not only from a compliance perspective, but also to support the next phases of our transformation agenda, including future tariff reviews, the advancement of universalization targets and the integration of new assets into our operating and financial model.

在此背景下，我們的監管機構AE已啟動公開諮詢，以討論新的DRC方法論；我們計畫積極參與此流程，並於今年5月13日前提交我們的建議。成功達成此里程碑不僅對合規至關重要，也將支撐我們轉型議程的下一階段，包括未來費率審查、普及化目標的推進，以及將新資產整合至我們的營運與財務模型之中。

With that, I conclude the session of the presentation. We can now move on to the Q&A.

以上，我結束本次簡報內容。我們現在可以進入問答環節。

(Operator Instructions) Mr. Guilherme Lima, Santander.

（接線員指示）Santander的Guilherme Lima先生。

Good morning, guys. I have here two questions. First, electricity and material expenses came in higher than we were expecting. Could you disclose to what extent these lines were impacted by the company's current hydrological situation? What could be normalized levels and whether a portion of these incremental costs could be subject to future reimbursement? And the other question is if you could share your expectations for the 2026 revenue loss stemming from social tariff benefits to be reimbursed in 2023 tariffs? That's it.

各位早安。我這裡有兩個問題。第一，電力與材料費用高於我們的預期。你們能否揭露這些項目在多大程度上受到公司目前水文情勢的影響？哪些水準可視為正常化水準？以及這些增量成本是否有一部分可能在未來獲得補償？第二個問題是，你們能否分享對2026年因社會費率（social tariff）優惠所造成的營收損失之預期，該損失將在2023年費率中予以補償？以上，謝謝。

Thank you, Guillermi. Good morning, Danielle here. Thank you for your questions. Look, starting from electricity materials, we don't see necessarily major shifts in electricity with regards to the hydrological situation versus what we had, for example, in the second half of last year.

謝謝你，Guillermi。各位早安，我是Danielle。謝謝你的提問。先從電力與材料談起，我們不認為就水文情勢而言，電力方面相較於例如去年下半年會出現重大變化。

What we see first is a decline year on year on power expenses. So we're actually consuming less versus the first quarter of last year as we have a lower production given by the fact that we're doing the night pressure management in connection with [Epego's] operating rule, which is good. What we see naturally, and we tried to signal that in the Investor Day is higher cost per kilowatt with regards to the captive market, given the price increases that have been already passed in the places where we operate. So this is one of the things.

我們首先看到的是電力費用年減。也就是說，相較去年第一季，我們實際用電量更少，因為在[Epego]的營運規則下，我們進行夜間壓力管理，導致產量較低，這是正面的。另一方面，我們自然也看到——且我們在投資人日也嘗試提示——在管制市場（captive market）下，每千瓦成本較高，原因是我們營運地區已反映的電價上調。因此，這是其中一點。

Looking to materials, I would attribute that mostly through phasing than anything else. There was no specific major item on materials in the quarter that would lead me to believe that we're in a different path. With regards to revenue loss from the social tariff, right, which is a timing effect naturally, what we see today, we have virtually stabilized the number of economies that actually access the benefit with about 2 million. If we look at year on year, this is a big impact, growing almost 50% year on year quarter. But when we look at Q4 versus Q1, the number is relatively stable.

至於材料，我會將其主要歸因於支出時點（phasing）而非其他因素。本季材料並沒有任何特定重大項目，會讓我認為我們正走在不同的趨勢上。關於社會費率造成的營收損失（這本質上是時間差效應），我們目前看到，實際享有該福利的用戶數（economies）幾乎已穩定在約200萬。如果看年比年，影響很大，本季年增接近50%。但若比較第四季與第一季，該數字相對穩定。

So I don't see major spikes from one quarter to the other.

因此，我不認為各季之間會出現明顯的尖峰。

What I do see and one thing that you have to keep in mind is every time that we grow, we're growing more and more to underprivileged communities. So as we grow, an important part of that growth is going to be eligible to the Tarifa Paulista or to the CadUnico depending on each level of eligibility. So this is going to add to that number. Is it going to be one for one for each economy that we grow? This is going to go there?

我確實看到、且你需要記住的一點是：每當我們成長時，我們的成長越來越多來自弱勢社區。因此，隨著我們擴張，成長中的一個重要部分將符合Tarifa Paulista或CadUnico的資格，取決於各自的資格層級。這會使該數字增加。是否我們每新增一個用戶（economy）就會一比一地落入其中？會全部都進去嗎？

I don't think so, but this is going to be -- this is something that's less predictable from a day-to-day perspective. You will see some growth, but this is going to be much more organic now, and it's going to be less storeasting -- sorry, less discrete, sorry.

我不這麼認為，但這將會——從日常角度來看，這件事較難預測。你會看到一些成長，但現在會更偏向有機成長，而且會比較不那麼——抱歉，較不那麼離散（discrete），抱歉。

Thank you, Daniel.

謝謝你，Daniel。

(Operator Instructions) Mrs. Maria Carolina, Safra.

（接線員指示）Safra的Maria Carolina女士。

Hi, everyone. Good morning. Thanks for the call and also for taking my questions. I have 2, one on regulatory front and the other on growth opportunities, starting with regulation. Can you comment on the recent normative that RCESB published presenting the guidelines for the discount policies for large users? What's your thoughts on these guidelines, expectations surrounding this definition? And how can this help you guys in future negotiations with big clients?

嗨，各位早安。謝謝這通電話會議，也謝謝你們回答我的問題。我有兩個問題，一個關於監管面，另一個關於成長機會，先從監管開始。你們能否評論RCESB近期發布的規範性文件（normative），其中提出大型用戶折扣政策的指引？你們對這些指引有何看法、對相關定義的預期為何？以及這將如何在未來與大型客戶的談判中幫助你們？

And secondly, the government announced the public hearing, as you guys mentioned on the Investor Day for the Universaliza Sao Paulo program. So looking to the documents released, what's your first thoughts on that, expectations for the blocks per se, if it's going to be more than one block and potential size of blocks here in case you have any views on that? And of course, expectations on possible differences between this model -- new model versus the first version and maybe the time line for that? Thank you.

第二點，政府宣布將舉行公開聽證會，正如各位在「Universaliza São Paulo」計畫的投資人日所提到的。因此，從已發布的文件來看，您對此的第一印象是什麼？對於標案區塊本身的預期——是否會多於一個區塊，以及若您有任何看法，這些區塊可能的規模？另外，對於此模式——新模式相較於第一版——可能存在的差異，以及相關時程的預期？謝謝。

Thank you, Carlos. A few thoughts, not definitive yet because I think we're still early days in some of these initiatives. First, regarding the commercial discount policy, not policy or ruling that AESP did. I think the next step is for SABESP to submit a policy and how to -- how would this deliberation work. Our expectation is to do this in the next couple of weeks, to be honest.

謝謝你，Carlos。我先分享幾點想法；目前還不是定論，因為我認為這些倡議有些仍在早期階段。第一，關於商業折扣政策——不是 AESP 所做的政策或裁定——我認為下一步是由 SABESP 提交一套政策，以及——這項審議將如何運作。我們的預期是，坦白說，會在接下來幾週內完成。

This has been long overdue. This segment of the market is expecting this since the privatization.

這件事早就該做了。自從私有化以來，市場的這個細分領域一直在期待這件事。

Our expectation is that SABESP will approve with any adjustments, the policy that we submit, I think, by the end of this quarter. And this would be, I think, valid for consumers on the second half of the year. The consequence would be, I think, consumers to adopt these new tariffs. We would probably -- this would have an impact on our second quarter -- second half of the year results as this rolls out, and we would be compensated two years down the road because of the volume, how the regulation works. But I think this would mitigate a lot of the pressure, a lot of the demands that some large clients, industrial and commercial clients have.

我們預期 SABESP 會在本季末前，對我們提交的政策在做出必要調整後予以核准。我認為這將在今年下半年對用戶生效。其結果將是，消費者採用這些新費率。我們可能——隨著推行，這會對我們今年下半年（第二個半年）的業績造成影響；但依照監管機制，我們會在兩年後因為用量而獲得補償。不過我認為，這將緩解許多壓力，以及一些大型客戶（工業與商業客戶）的諸多要求。

So all in all, I think that we'll have a clear view of definition of the policy that we're going to propose and if it's going to be approved by the end of that first half. And this would be applicable and valid for the second half of the year flowing through our numbers. Regarding Universalza, I think it was good to hear that this process is moving forward. I think the big unknown still is how many municipalities are going to be there for the formal process. This is still not set in stone. I think that's the big, I think, uncertainty.

總體而言，我認為我們會在上半年結束前，清楚掌握我們將提出的政策定義，以及是否會獲得核准。這將在下半年適用並生效，並反映在我們的財務數字中。至於 Universaliza，我認為聽到流程正在推進是好消息。我認為最大的未知數仍是，正式流程中會有多少個市鎮參與。這點仍未定案。我認為這是最大的、不確定性。

We don't have a clear view how many blocks. I think that depends at the end of the day how many municipalities will be in the process when the process formally starts. I think the new news, I think, is the drainage. It's small, but there's a piece of drainage in the process. This is different from what we had at SABESP.

我們對會有多少個區塊沒有清楚的看法。我認為最終取決於正式啟動時，有多少市鎮會納入流程。我認為新的消息是排水（drainage）。雖然規模不大，但流程中包含了一部分排水內容。這與我們在 SABESP 時的情況不同。

All the rest, I think, is most of the same. So that's good news because there's no surprise. There's also a provision of DRC to be -- what's going to be approved for SABESP is going to be rolled out for -- also for Universaliza Sao Paulo. So this is, I think, the unknown that may affect us and Universaliza, okay? So this is our takeaway for now and glad that see both of these initiatives moving forward during this year.

其餘部分我認為大多相同。所以這是好消息，因為沒有意外。另外也有一項關於 DRC 的規定——將要為 SABESP 核准的內容，也會推行到——同樣適用於 Universaliza São Paulo。因此我認為這是可能影響我們與 Universaliza 的未知因素，好嗎？以上是我們目前的重點結論，也很高興看到這兩項倡議今年都在推進。

Okay. Amazing. If I may add only one additional one here. We noted this quarter that the immunization curve seemed a little bit slower compared to the previous quarter. Of course, we're talking about tough comps, right, given you guys did a great job last year. But just to understand if there was any kind of events this quarter that changed a little bit the rhythm here or nothing to be noted on that?

好的。太棒了。如果我可以再補充一點：我們注意到本季的資產資本化（unitization）曲線似乎比上一季慢一些。當然，我們談的是高基期比較，對吧，畢竟你們去年做得非常好。但我想了解的是，本季是否有任何事件讓節奏稍微改變，或是沒有什麼特別需要注意的？

I can take it, Daniel can also comment if you want. But I think there's small seasonality. At the end of the day, there's a big push given how regulation works to have everything ready for the regulatory discussion by end of the year. So the fourth quarter is our peak and usually the first quarter is where from a seasonality standpoint, a little bit lower. I think nothing that concerns us.

我可以回答，Daniel 也可以補充（如果你希望）。但我認為有些小幅季節性因素。歸根結底，因為監管運作方式的關係，我們會在年底前為監管討論把所有事情準備好，所以第四季是高峰，而通常第一季從季節性角度來看會稍微低一些。我認為沒有什麼讓我們擔心的。

This has basically two things, the comp of the fourth quarter and I think the way that the construction works evolve through the year. I think the first quarter, usually, it's a little bit slower from a unitization standpoint.

基本上有兩點：第四季的比較基期，以及我認為工程建設的推進方式在一年中會逐步演進。我認為第一季通常在資產資本化（unitization）方面會慢一點。

I just wanted to add something here, Carlos Piani. We also had the cutover for SAP. We had to cut the month a little bit earlier in March. So we didn't have the typical days that we take at the end of every month to go through the unitization process. So this is going to be picked up in Q2, okay?

我想在這裡補充一下，Carlos Piani。我們也遇到 SAP 的切換（cutover）。我們在 3 月必須把月份稍微提前結帳。因此，我們沒有每個月月底通常用來完成資產資本化流程的那些典型天數。所以這部分會在第二季補回來，好嗎？

Okay. Thank you, guys.

好的。謝謝各位。

So we lost probably two of the 90.

所以我們大概少了 90 天中的兩天。

Okay. Thanks.

好的。謝謝。

Bruno Amorim, Goldman Sachs.

Goldman Sachs 的 Bruno Amorim。

Hi, good morning, everybody. Thanks for taking my questions. I have two here. The first one, could you comment or remind us where you are in the journey to improve operational efficiency of the company, just so we understand how much more room you still see for further cost and revenue efficiencies going forward? And the second question on the COPASA privatization, if SABES decides to participate, is it decided that, that would be together with Equatorial given none of those companies have exposure to Minas Gerais yet or are not necessarily? Thank you very much.

各位早安，謝謝回答我的問題。我有兩個問題。第一個，能否評論或提醒我們，你們在提升公司營運效率的旅程中目前進展到哪一步？讓我們了解未來在成本與營收效率方面，你們仍看到多少進一步改善的空間。第二個問題關於 COPASA 私有化：如果 SABES 決定參與，是否已決定會與 Equatorial 一起進行，因為這些公司目前都尚未曝險於米納斯吉拉斯州（Minas Gerais），還是不一定？非常感謝。

Daniel, you take the first one, I can take the second.

Daniel，你回答第一個，我來回答第二個。

Okay. So on the cost side, look, we have a lot of things that we did last year and thinking through why we're doing this, right? We've invested already BRL22 billion. We've invested another BRL3 billion plus this quarter. So we're investing a lot. And this is one of the ways that we free up resources for that investment, right? Interest rates are at 14.5%. So this is one of the things that why we do this, right? But thinking through this, we did a lot last year. There's a lot of carryover from last year.

好的。就成本面來說，你看，我們去年做了很多事情，也要想清楚我們為什麼要做，對吧？我們已經投資了 220 億雷亞爾（BRL22 billion），本季又投資了另外 30 億雷亞爾以上。所以我們投資很多。而這是我們釋放資源以支持投資的方法之一，對吧？利率在 14.5%。所以這也是我們為什麼要做這些事的原因之一。但回到這點，我們去年做了很多，且有不少效益會延續到今年。

But naturally, we are doing other things this year. And one of the things that we have that's big and it's going to come up is the auto production on power. We have some of that coming live now in Q2. some of that coming now live in the Q3. So we'll also see a carryforward benefit for that for next year. So this is one of the large things that we're doing.

但自然地，我們今年也在做其他事情。其中一項很大、且即將顯現的，是自發電（auto production on power）。其中一部分會在第二季開始上線，另一部分會在第三季上線。因此，我們也會在明年看到這部分帶來的延續性效益。這是我們正在做的重大事項之一。

But otherwise, one of the things that we are looking also is through the structural things like the SAP go live. We are also revisiting all our commercial efforts and our commercial processes also to improve the quality of the service and so on and so forth. So we try to avoid giving too much guidance on that front, as you are well aware, but this is what we can comment for now.

除此之外，我們也在看一些結構性事項，例如 SAP 上線（go live）。我們也在重新檢視所有商業拓展工作與商業流程，以提升服務品質等等。我們會盡量避免在這方面給出太多指引，你也很清楚，但目前我們能評論的大概就是這些。

And regarding M&A opportunity, the one you mentioned, I think given everything that's happening with us because we're still -- we're doing a transformation while being a public company and so forth, I think the partnership is welcome at this phase for any major opportunity. I cannot confirm partnership, but I think the partnership is something that we want to seek and Equatorial is a partner of choice if we decide to move forward. I think we're ready for the process and the partnership is something that we think it's good for us at this moment in time, and Equatorial would be a good partner. And in the right time, when we publicly make the decision in the process, this decision is going to become public. That's what I can say.

至於你提到的併購（M&A）機會，我認為考量到我們目前正在發生的一切——因為我們仍在進行轉型，同時又是一家上市公司等等——我認為在這個階段，對於任何重大機會，合作夥伴關係是受歡迎的。我無法確認合作夥伴安排，但我認為我們希望尋求合作，而如果我們決定推進，Equatorial 會是優先選擇的合作夥伴。我認為我們已準備好進入流程，而在此時此刻，合作夥伴關係對我們是有利的，Equatorial 會是很好的夥伴。到了適當時機，當我們在流程中公開做出決定時，這個決定也會對外公開。這就是我能說的。

Thank you. Have a good day.

謝謝。祝你今天愉快。

Fillipe, Itaú.

Itaú 的 Fillipe。

Good morning, everyone. Thanks for taking my questions. A quick follow-up on the previous question here. At its Investor Day, SABESP presented a CapEx estimate of roughly BRL20 billion for 2026. Could you please share your expectations on the disbursement curve in the coming quarters as well as the expected normalized utilization rate? And also if you could comment on the discussions with the regulatory agency regarding the CapEx plan for '24, '29. Do you have any sights on the timing or the outcome of these discussions? Thank you.

各位早安，謝謝回答我的問題。針對前一題做個快速追問：在投資人日，SABESP 提出 2026 年約 200 億雷亞爾（BRL20 billion）的資本支出（CapEx）估算。可否分享你們對未來幾季的支出曲線（disbursement curve）以及預期的常態化資本化率／利用率（normalized utilization rate）的看法？另外，也請評論一下你們與監管機構就 2024–2029 年資本支出計畫（CapEx plan）的討論進展。你們是否掌握這些討論的時程或可能結果？謝謝。

Okay. Thank you. Thank you for the question, Fillipe. Let me maybe start with the first part on the internal side and then talk a little bit more on the -- on the internal front, right, CapEx typically starts slower off the gate in Q1 and then ramps up throughout the year. Every place that I've worked in my life, this happened. It's no different here in SABESP. When we look at last year, a part of the slope of the curve of the acceleration was indeed because of how we were changing the processes, but there will always be a compounding curve throughout the year in terms of CapEx.

好的。謝謝，Fillipe，謝謝你的問題。我先從第一部分、也就是內部面向開始，然後再多談一些——內部層面，對吧。資本支出通常在第一季一開始會比較慢，然後在全年逐步加速。我人生中待過的每個地方都是如此，SABESP 也不例外。回顧去年，曲線加速斜率的一部分確實與我們如何改變流程有關，但就資本支出而言，一年之中本來就會有逐步累積、加速的曲線。

A part of that comes from the fact that we have started the countryside programs now.

其中一部分原因來自於我們現在已經開始推動鄉村計畫。

So we have split the countryside programs into two pieces. The first batch of those programs have started already. The second batch we're getting proposals now. So we'll start at some point still this year. And then we are also contracting the expansion of the major sewage treatment plants that will also increase the CapEx throughout the year, okay?

因此我們把鄉村計畫拆成兩個部分。第一批計畫已經啟動。第二批我們正在收提案，所以我們會在今年某個時間點開始。另外，我們也在簽約主要污水處理廠的擴建工程，這也會在全年推升資本支出（CapEx），好嗎？

So mechanically, this is how it will work. In terms of unitization, unitization also has to do with the good being put into use, right? So it needs to be commissioned, right? There needs to be water or sewage passing through that. And usually, some of these things, they happen throughout the year. So the unitization curve also grows throughout the year. As we've invoicing, we do not expect that for one will be unitized in the first two or three years.

所以從機制上來看，會是這樣運作。就資產投入使用（unitization）而言，這也與資產被投入使用有關，對吧？也就是需要完成投運（commissioned），對吧？需要有自來水或污水流經該設施。而通常其中一些事情會在全年陸續發生。因此，unitization 曲線也會在全年逐步上升。至於我們的開票（invoicing），我們不預期第一個會在前兩到三年就完成 unitization。

We expect that there will be more or less 2/3, 1/3 being left over 1/3 and unitizing about 2/3 of the CapEx, a little bit less than 2/3 of the CapEx every year and then reversing that trend in the last two years of the cycle. So this is more or less what we expect and what we are planning and seeing already in the day-to-day, okay? But then talking about the regulatory front, I'll defer to Piani, can provide better insight.

我們預期大致會是每年 unitize 約 2/3 的 CapEx、剩下約 1/3 留待後續；也就是每年 unitize 約 2/3（略低於 2/3）的資本支出，並在週期最後兩年反轉這個趨勢。這大致就是我們的預期、規劃，以及我們在日常營運中已經看到的情況，好嗎？但談到監管面，我會請 Piani 來回答，他能提供更好的洞見。

There's no time line from the regulatory standpoint for us to have a formal position on our CapEx projection. But we expect at least this discussion to have some -- we have some definition about the future in the beginning of the second half of this year because we need to start planning what we're going to do next year, right, and the years forward.

從監管角度來看，並沒有一個時間表要求我們就資本支出預測提出正式立場。但我們預期至少在今年下半年初，這個討論會有一些——我們會對未來有一些定義，因為我們需要開始規劃明年要做什麼，對吧，以及往後幾年的安排。

We already have a lot of the CapEx contracted given how things work here. And -- but there's some -- still some degrees of freedom how much money we're going to deploy next year and the following years. So from our perspective, I think we need to have some visibility of this alignment by the beginning of the third quarter of the year. And we'll try to pursue, if possible, this definition with the regulatory agency. But just to be clear, there's no formal time frame, no obligation from the regulatory agency to provide that in that time frame, okay. Thank you very much.

依照這裡的運作方式，我們其實已經簽約了相當多的 CapEx。只是——仍然有一些自由度，決定明年以及接下來幾年要投入多少資金。就我們的角度，我認為我們需要在第三季初之前，對這個對齊（alignment）有一定能見度。我們也會嘗試在可能的情況下，與監管機構推進這個定義。但要說清楚的是，監管機構沒有正式的時程，也沒有義務必須在那個時間點提供，好嗎。非常感謝。

(Operator Instructions) Matteo Morin from --

（接線員指示）Matteo Morin 來自——

Oh, hello, thank you for taking the question. Congratulations on the excellent results. I would like to understand a little bit more what are your actions through the remainder of this year regarding revenue assurance and how you're seeing this thing evolving throughout this year and maybe next year. Thank you very much.

喔，你好，謝謝讓我提問。恭喜你們取得優異的成果。我想更了解一下，今年剩餘時間你們在收入保障（revenue assurance）方面會採取哪些行動，以及你們如何看待今年、甚至明年的演變。非常感謝。

Thank you, Mateus. This is a very important pillar for us. I think that all the commercial efforts where revenue assurance resides are one of the major pillars of any transformation from a state-owned company to a privately held enterprise. We have been moving fast and furious on that front, many fronts like meters, substitution, collection workflow adjustments, putting a negative mark on consumers that don't pay on time and so forth. And this has generated a lot of volume on our customer service channels across the board that are at the same time being redesigned.

謝謝你，Mateus。這對我們而言是非常重要的一個支柱。我認為所有收入保障所涵蓋的商業面努力，都是任何公司從國營轉型為民營企業的主要支柱之一。我們在這方面推進得非常快、力度也很大，包含多個面向，例如水表、替換、收款流程調整、對未按時付款的用戶做負面註記等等。這也在我們各個客服渠道帶來了大量的服務量，而這些渠道同時也正在重新設計。

So as we described on the opening presentation, we're constantly discussing this balance between how much volume we put in the system and how much structure do we have to support this. And we know we are all customers as well from other utilities that usually the customer service is a little bit difficult. And we -- so we expect through this quarter that we're living, right, the second quarter already to the end of the year to make potential adjustments so we can help the consumer navigate this change of different commercial policies following the regulatory framework that it's a little bit tighter than it was in the past. We have more flexibility with partial installments for adjustments in volumes that are higher because of the meters that were obsolete. So all in all, Mateus, I think we're going to adjust.

因此，如同我們在開場簡報所描述的，我們一直在討論這個平衡：我們往系統裡導入多少量，以及我們有多少組織與結構來支撐。我們也知道，作為其他公用事業的客戶，客服通常會有點困難。我們——因此我們預期在我們正在經歷的這一季，也就是第二季，到年底這段期間，會做一些可能的調整，以便協助用戶在遵循監管框架下（相較過去更嚴格）理解並適應不同的商業政策變更。對於因舊水表導致用量偏高的調整，我們在分期付款方面也有更大的彈性。總的來說，Mateus，我認為我們會做出調整。

I think we're focusing on the long term. If it's required, we're going to -- we may reduce a little bit of the volume or invest a little bit more in the structure, so we can continue to evolve with a good customer service level. This is our challenge. We're looking in the long term and help our consumer in this transition to pay on time even if the bill is a little bit -- We will do so in the next -- in this -- in the next quarters to come by year-end.

我認為我們會聚焦長期。如果有需要，我們會——可能稍微降低導入的量，或在組織與結構上多投入一些，讓我們能在維持良好客服水準的同時持續演進。這就是我們的挑戰。我們著眼長期，協助用戶在這個轉型過程中按時繳費，即使帳單可能有點——我們會在接下來——在今年接下來幾個季度、直到年底來做到這點。

Thank you very much.

非常感謝。

(Operator Instructions) Giuliano Ajeje, UBS.

（接線員指示）Giuliano Ajeje，UBS。

Hello Pione, Daniel and good morning. I have three questions. Let me start with the -- about the tariff -- about the mix tariff. So you reported growth in terms of households with tariffs with subsidies. I have two questions here. The first one, if the company project this growth pace of tariff with subsidies will continue through 2027, 2028.

你好，Pione、Daniel，早安。我有三個問題。先從——關於費率——關於費率組合（mix tariff）開始。你們提到享有補貼費率的家庭數量有所成長。我這裡有兩個問題：第一，公司是否預期這種補貼費率的成長速度會持續到 2027、2028 年？

And if not, what should be the level? And my second one is regarding the status with the regulatory work to recompose this. Also another question is about COPASA. So it's a simple one if you already registered for the process. And finally, another question about the CapEx.

如果不會，那應該會落在什麼水準？第二個問題是關於監管端重新組合（recompose）這部分工作的進度。另外一個問題是關於 COPASA：很簡單，你們是否已經為該流程完成登記？最後還有一個關於 CapEx 的問題。

So the slide 13, you showed the CapEx expected for 2024 to 2029. And this is considering the anticipation of the second cycle. So assuming that you will not consider to anticipate what should be the CapEx? So my question is the initial BRL70 billion, how much should be adjusted by inflation and also -- and also second, how much should be the anticipation of the second cycle? Okay. So three topics here.

在第 13 張投影片，你們展示了 2024 到 2029 年預期的 CapEx，且這是考慮提前啟動第二個週期。那麼假設你們不考慮提前，CapEx 應該是多少？我的問題是：最初的 700 億巴西雷亞爾（BRL70 billion）需要因通膨調整多少？另外——另外第二個問題是：提前第二個週期的影響應該是多少？好的，三個主題。

All right. Maybe I'll take the first one, and then I'll take here. So on the first one, thank you for the questions. It's very helpful. So on the first one, we started this adding new tiers, right? So first, we had a methodology that was SABESP. And then the contract dictated us to move from that methodology to the Castro Unico, which is the federal social security scheme. And we moved to that throughout the last quarter of 2024. And then we realized that some people lost the benefits that -- but they still needed the benefits.

好的。也許我先回答第一個，然後再接著回答。關於第一個問題，謝謝你的提問，這非常有幫助。第一點，我們開始新增新的級距（tiers），對吧？一開始我們採用的是 SABESP 的方法論。之後合約要求我們從該方法論轉換到 Cadastro Único，也就是聯邦的社會保障登記制度。我們在 2024 年最後一季完成了轉換。然後我們發現有些人失去了原本的福利——但他們其實仍然需要這些福利。

So we maintain those benefits for a while to allow them to register into Cadastro Unico and so on and so forth. And then throughout that period, the concession approved another program called Tarifa Paulista. So throughout all this period, I think until the end almost of 2025, we had changing rules of who was entitled, what type of benefit and so on and so forth. It stabilized at the end of last year. So now I don't expect and one of the things that we'll also start seeing is some of these people getting into the transition tariffs, right?

因此我們暫時維持這些福利一段時間，讓他們可以完成 Cadastro Único 的登記等等。在此期間，特許經營方（concession）又核准了另一個名為 Tarifa Paulista 的方案。所以在這整段期間，我認為直到 2025 年末前後，關於誰有資格、享有何種福利等規則都在變動。這在去年年底已經穩定下來。因此現在我不預期——而且我們也會開始看到其中一些人進入過渡費率（transition tariffs），對吧？也就是享有福利 18 個月後，轉到不同的類別等等。

So people that had the benefit for 18 months and they transition to a different class and so on and so forth. But given that and assuming that there are no changes going forward, I think the adjustments here, they are going to be only organic. And what I mean by that is mostly driven by growth. So if we grow to underprivileged communities, some people will be more eligible. Even when we grow into more formal areas, we also have people that are eligible for social or Tarifa Paulista and so on and so forth. But I don't expect to see the same amount of bumps up and down that we saw throughout last year going forward.

但在此基礎上，並假設未來沒有變更，我認為這裡的調整只會是自然性的（organic）。我的意思是主要由成長所驅動：如果我們擴展到弱勢社區，會有更多人符合資格；即使我們擴展到更正式的區域，也同樣會有符合社會費率或 Tarifa Paulista 等資格的人。但我不預期未來會再看到像去年那樣大幅的上下波動。

I expect to see organic minor changes to those numbers going forward unless there are regulatory changes, okay? So that's the answer to your first question. To the second, talking about COPASA.

我預期未來只會看到小幅、自然性的變化，除非監管規則有所改變，好嗎？這就是對你第一個問題的回答。第二個，談到 COPASA。

COPASA, yes, we're going to register. We're going to participate. I think simple as that and process will depending how it evolves, we can share our views with the market. But yes, we're going to participate. And I think the last one regarding the total CapEx, I think we need to wait for the regulator, and Ajeje, I know this is a tough one because we need to be aligned.

COPASA，是的，我們會去登記。我們會參與。我想就這麼簡單；至於流程如何演變，我們可以再與市場分享我們的看法。但答案是：會，我們會參與。最後一個關於總 CapEx，我認為我們需要等待監管機構的意見；Ajeje，我知道這很棘手，因為我們需要對齊。

But at the end of the day, there's a little bit of everything, right? Daniel can explore, but there's a little bit of inflation on top of the BRL70 billion. There was a little bit changes of scope basically when we did all the geo reference of all the consumers that needed to be connected. Some of these works, I think, would be not prudent to be made and we discuss how to do this with the government and the -- with the agency, sorry. And they're discussing maybe there's other alternatives ways to provide service like we are going to do to rural.

但歸根結底，這裡面有多種因素，對吧？Daniel 可以再補充，但其中一部分是 700 億巴西雷亞爾之上的通膨因素；也有一些範疇（scope）的變更，基本上是在我們完成所有需要接管的用戶地理定位（geo reference）之後。有些工程我認為不宜（not prudent）去做，我們也在與政府以及——與主管機關討論該如何處理，抱歉，是與主管機關。他們也在討論是否有其他替代方式來提供服務，例如我們將在鄉村地區採用的方式。

There are some formal areas with rural characteristics and we can offer service with the same out of the role to some of the formal areas. This would reduce, I think, in a material way, a sample of the connections that we need to make. So all in all, I think we need -- I would like to wait a little bit more to give you this visibility. I think what is certain is what we're going to invest this year. I think we have been crystal clear.

有一些正式區域帶有鄉村特徵，而我們也可以在部分正式區域提供同樣的服務、以同樣的方式處理。這將會在我看來，以實質性的方式減少我們需要建立的一部分連接數量。總之，我認為我們需要——我希望再等一段時間再向各位提供更清楚的能見度。我認為可以確定的是我們今年要投資的金額。我想我們已經說得非常清楚了。

I think Daniel can give a little bit more detail. But I think that there's three components. There's inflation on the BRL70 billion. There's a little bit more complex connections that increases the average cost per consumer that we're negotiating. And there's good visibility that this will decline given our conversations up to this moment with the agency, and there's some timing between cycles that at the end of the day is a cost of capital decision, right, because the net present value may change a little bit more, but it's not different, right? And I think the final number we need to wait for the regulator.

我想 Daniel 可以提供更多細節。但我認為有三個組成部分：其一是對 700 億雷亞爾（BRL70 billion）的通膨影響；其二是我們正在談判的、較為複雜的連接，這會提高每位用戶的平均成本；其三是，根據我們截至目前與主管機關的對話，對於未來下降有很好的能見度，而且不同週期之間存在一些時點差異——歸根結底這是一個資本成本的決策，對吧？因為淨現值可能會有些變化，但本質上並沒有不同，對吧？而最終數字我們需要等待監管機構。

Okay. I agree. And can I have one more question. Okay. So the company reported a delinquency close to BRL50 million, BRL54 million this year. So my question is if the smart meters modernizations and also the digital channels improvement could change this for another level.

好的。我同意。我可以再問一個問題嗎？好的。公司今年披露的逾期金額接近 5,000 萬雷亞爾，約 5,400 萬雷亞爾。因此我的問題是，智慧電表的現代化以及數位渠道的改善，是否能把這個數字帶到另一個水準。

I think I'm going to join -- and let me start and then Daniel can pick it up later. But I think there's -- we reduced our provisions for our bad debt provision, right? And basically, the reduction was because the provision was made based on the behavior of the collection in the past. Given that we changed a lot of the policies and procedures, we're improving the collection rate as we move on. And because of that, the accounting provisions, they decreased.

我想我先補充——讓我先開始，之後 Daniel 可以再接著說。我認為我們——我們降低了壞帳準備（bad debt provision）的提列，對吧？基本上，降低的原因是，過去的提列是基於以往催收行為的表現。鑑於我們在政策與流程上做了很多調整，隨著推進，我們正在提升回收率。因此，會計上的準備金就下降了。

That's why they declined. It's simple, right? So we don't -- the policy has not changed. The bad debt provision is based on the collection history and given that the history is improving, so the anticipated provision declines. If the behavior changes, the provision will increase. It's simple as that. So we're aligned. Regarding the smart meters, I think they -- where they can help. We -- smart meters is not new in the world.

這就是它下降的原因。很簡單，對吧？所以我們——政策並沒有改變。壞帳準備是基於收款歷史，而由於這個歷史正在改善，所以預期提列就下降。如果行為改變，提列就會增加。就是這麼簡單。所以我們的理解一致。至於智慧電表，我認為它們——它們能幫上忙的地方是：我們——智慧電表在全球並不是新事物。

I think we're a laggard regarding smart meters to the Europe, U.S., Asia and so forth. But in one area that we -- that I think we're leading is that we implemented Evolve on the smart meters. So this will facilitate these connections and connections according to the rules of ASESP, right? So I think this will help, I think, to be more efficient.

我認為相較於歐洲、美國、亞洲等地，我們在智慧電表方面算是落後者。但有一個領域我認為我們走在前面：我們在智慧電表上導入了 Evolve。這將有助於這些連接的建立，並且依照 ASESP 的規則來進行連接，對吧？所以我認為這會有助於提升效率。

This will help the smart meters, as always, will help the consumer have a daily reading of their consumption. So there's going to be less surprises when they get -- they have a leak or they increase because they have visitors and they will discuss less and there's going to be less dispute, in my opinion, in aggregate of the final bills that they have, and we'll be able to collect more efficiency given my first comment. So I think on the margin, there are some benefits, but this will take time. I think the smart meters that we have this daily consumption information. To be relevant, this will take, I think, two years to have a relevant sample to make a dent in our numbers given our size.

這也會幫助智慧電表一如既往地讓用戶能每日讀取其用量。因此，當他們發生漏水，或因為有訪客而用量增加時，收到帳單時的意外會更少；他們爭議會更少，而我認為整體而言，對最終帳單的爭端也會更少；同時，基於我第一點的評論，我們也能更有效率地收款。所以我認為在邊際上會有一些好處，但這需要時間。我認為要讓我們擁有這種每日用量資訊的智慧電表在數據上具有代表性，考量到我們的規模，可能需要兩年才能累積到足夠的樣本，對我們的數字產生明顯影響。

Just to add one thing, guys, specifically for this quarter, we had a settlement with one of the cities that we serve that was a BRL30 million recovery. So this was also influencing the number for the quarter in a probably a bigger form than just like an aggregate number of the collection.

再補充一點，各位，特別是就本季而言，我們與我們服務的其中一個城市達成了一項和解，帶來 3,000 萬雷亞爾（BRL30 million）的回收。因此，這也影響了本季的數字，而且影響可能比單純的整體收款表現更大。

Okay. Thank you, Daniel.

好的。謝謝你，Daniel。

João Pimentel, Citi.

João Pimentel，花旗（Citi）。

Okay. Hi, guys. Good morning. I have a more broader question. I wanted to discuss how do you perceive SABESP acting allocating capital in eventually different markets, meaning like outside Brazil or eventually into different segments because SABESP is already $100 billion plus market cap company. Of course, we have COPASA, we have Uigasaliza. COPASA if you go in a consortium comparing to the size of the company, it's not that much of a big check. right?

好的。各位早安。我有一個更宏觀的問題。我想討論的是，你們如何看待 SABESP 在資本配置上，未來可能進入不同市場——也就是例如走出巴西，或進入不同的業務領域，因為 SABESP 已經是市值超過 1,000 億美元的公司。當然，我們有 COPASA，也有 Uigasaliza。以公司規模來看，如果你去做一個財團（consortium），COPASA 並不是一張非常大的支票，對吧？

So just trying to understand how do you perceive or how do you think you are prepared in your journey of universalization in a sense that, okay, now we are more in the run rate. We know how things operate. We are past the initial challenges of running -- of this migration from an SOE to a private company. And we're just too big eventually for where we currently operate. So how do you feel about investing in different segments or looking to other geographies, of course, taking into consideration different regulatory risks and FX exposure. So just trying to get your sense on that. Thank you.

所以我只是想了解，你們如何看待、或你們認為自己在普及化（universalization）的旅程中準備得如何：也就是說，現在我們的運行節奏更穩定了，我們知道事情如何運作，我們也已經度過了從國有企業（SOE）遷移到民營公司的初期挑戰。而就我們目前的營運範圍而言，我們可能終究會變得太大。因此，你們對投資不同領域或尋找其他地理市場有何感受？當然也要考量不同的監管風險與匯率（FX）曝險。我只是想聽聽你們的看法。謝謝。

Thanks for the question. I think this is in all the options of nonorganic growth, these are the most risky, right? And probably the ones that we don't have probably there's less alignment between shareholders and stakeholders and so forth. But given the nature and our nature that you mentioned that the size -- from a -- we have the fiduciary duty to look at all opportunities to generate alpha, right? I would say that I think we need to learn and do our homework.

謝謝你的問題。我認為在所有非有機成長（nonorganic growth）的選項中，這些是風險最高的，對吧？而且可能也是股東與利害關係人之間較難取得一致的那些選項。但如你所提到的，基於我們的性質以及我們的規模——從受託責任（fiduciary duty）的角度，我們有義務檢視所有能創造超額報酬（alpha）的機會，對吧？我會說，我認為我們需要學習並做好功課。

I think this is -- we're still in early days of our journey, only less than two years. I think we're 19, 20 months in. So I would say this is something that we're going to look at. Initially, if this makes sense, it needs to be almost like an option type of structure, right? It's easier that way. So if we have a very small opportunity outside in our industry, this would be a risk/reward relation easier to test the waters. But I would say there's nothing critical.

我認為這——我們仍處於旅程的早期階段，還不到兩年。我想我們大概才 19、20 個月。因此我會說，這是我們會去看的事情。一開始，如果這有意義，它需要幾乎像是一種選擇權（option）型的結構，對吧？那樣比較容易。所以如果在我們產業之外有一個非常小的機會，這種風險／報酬關係會更容易用來試水溫。但我會說，目前沒有什麼迫切性。

I think there's -- just to be clear to the market, we're not looking to do a deal outside our geography or outside the industry that's major that's going to change the risk profile of SABESP, okay? But given the nature and how regulation works and how probably the market cap will follow the increase of the recognition of the investments, the market cap will evolve and will be very large to the Brazilian market, water and sewage market.

我認為——為了讓市場清楚，我們並沒有在尋求在我們的地理範圍之外或產業之外做一筆重大的交易，去改變 SABESP 的風險輪廓，好嗎？但考量到監管的運作方式，以及市值可能會隨著投資被認可的提升而上升，市值將會演進，並且相對於巴西的供水與污水市場而言會變得非常大。

So we -- I think we have the obligation to look at this vis-a-vis the decisions to just distribute cash. And we have time for this. So I just want to be clear on the message. We are not going to try to be a holding company, invest a lot of things, but we're going to look at other opportunities to see how we can leverage our skill set, our knowledge, the people knowledge of the people that are here in different ways. If that -- if we believe that there is a risk-reward relationship that makes sense that we're convinced internally that we can convince our Board, we're going to try to convince the market.

所以我們——我認為我們有義務在這方面進行評估，並與「單純把現金分配出去」的決策相對照。我們也有時間來做這件事。所以我只是想把訊息說清楚：我們不會試圖成為一家控股公司，去投資很多事情；但我們會看看其他機會，看看如何以不同方式運用我們的技能組合、我們的知識，以及在這裡的人才所擁有的知識。如果——如果我們相信存在一個合理的風險—報酬關係，而且我們在內部確信能說服董事會，我們就會嘗試說服市場。

If we believe that the opportunity is not there, we're just going to stick here to Sao Paulo, do our homework, try to provide a better service to everyone and move on and distribute the cash. I'm just passing you the framework. There's no -- nothing set in stone. But I think we have the skill set if the opportunity arises in outside a little bit of our backyard, I think we can do it, but we don't -- we're not there yet.

如果我們認為機會不存在，我們就會專注在聖保羅，做好功課，努力為所有人提供更好的服務，然後繼續前進並分配現金。我只是把框架提供給你。沒有——沒有任何事情是板上釘釘的。但我認為如果機會出現在我們後院之外的一小部分範圍，我們具備相應的技能組合，我想我們可以做到，但我們——我們還沒到那一步。

All right, thank you. Super clear. Thank you, Piani.

好的，謝謝。非常清楚。謝謝你，Piani。

The Q&A session is now over. We wish to give the floor to Mr. Carlos Piani for the company's closing remarks.

問答環節現在結束。我們請 Carlos Piani 先生為公司做結語。

So again, I just want to thank everyone for the questions and for the continued interest in SABESP. We appreciate everyone joining on a quarterly basis or calls. Looking forward to keep you guys all updated on our progress on the quarters ahead. Have all a great day and see you next quarter. Bye-bye.

再次感謝大家的提問，以及持續關注 SABESP。我們很感謝各位每季參與我們的電話會議。期待在接下來的季度持續向各位更新我們的進展。祝大家今天愉快，我們下季再見。再見。

SABESP's earnings presentation is now closed. Thank you very much for your participation, and we wish you all a very good day.

SABESP 的財報簡報到此結束。非常感謝各位的參與，並祝各位有美好的一天。