EchoStar Corp (SATS) 2025 Q4 法說會逐字稿

Greetings, and welcome to EchoStar Corporation Fourth Quarter 2025 Earnings Conference Call. (Operator Instructions) As a reminder, this conference is being recorded.

各位好，歡迎參加 EchoStar 公司 2025 年第四季財報電話會議。（操作說明）提醒各位，本次會議正在錄音。

I would now like to turn the conference over to your host, Mr. Dean Manson. Thank you. You may begin.

現在我將把會議交給主持人迪恩·曼森先生。謝謝。你可以開始了。

Thank you. Welcome to EchoStar's Third Quarter -- Year End 2025 Earnings Call. We will begin with opening remarks from Hamid Akhavan, CEO of EchoStar Capital; followed by Charlie Ergen, CEO and Chairman of EchoStar.

謝謝。歡迎參加 EchoStar 2025 年第三季至全年業績電話會議。我們將首先由 EchoStar Capital 執行長 Hamid Akhavan 致開幕詞；隨後由 EchoStar 執行長兼董事長 Charlie Ergen 致詞。

We request that any participant producing a report not identify other participants or their firms in such reports. We also do not allow audio recording, which we ask that you respect. All statements we make during this call, other than statements of historical fact constitute forward-looking statements made pursuant to the safe harbor provided by the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995. These forward-looking statements involve known and unknown risks, uncertainties and other factors that could cause our actual results to be materially different from historical results and from any future results expressed or implied by the forward-looking statements.

我們要求任何撰寫報告的參與者不要在報告中透露其他參與者或其公司的資訊。我們也不允許錄音，請您尊重此規定。除歷史事實陳述外，我們在本次電話會議中所做的所有陳述均構成前瞻性陳述，這些陳述符合 1995 年《私人證券訴訟改革法案》提供的安全港條款。這些前瞻性陳述涉及已知和未知的風險、不確定性和其他因素，這些因素可能導致我們的實際結果與歷史結果以及前瞻性陳述中明示或暗示的任何未來結果有重大差異。

For a list of those factors and risks, please refer to our annual report on Form 10-K for the fiscal year ended December 31, 2025, filed today, March 2, and our subsequent filings made with the SEC. This information and supplemental materials related to today's call will be posted on our Investor Relations website. All cautionary statements we make during this call should be understood as being applicable to any forward-looking statements we make wherever they appear. You should carefully consider the risks described in our reports and should not place any undue reliance on any forward-looking statements. We assume no responsibility for updating any forward-looking statements.

有關這些因素和風險的列表，請參閱我們今天（3 月 2 日）提交的截至 2025 年 12 月 31 日的財政年度的 10-K 表格年度報告，以及我們隨後向美國證券交易委員會提交的文件。與今天電話會議相關的資訊和補充資料將發佈在我們的投資者關係網站上。我們在本次電話會議中所做的所有警示性聲明應理解為適用於我們在任何地方作出的任何前瞻性聲明。您應仔細考慮我們報告中所述的風險，不應過度依賴任何前瞻性陳述。我們不承擔更新任何前瞻性陳述的責任。

We refer to OIBDA and free cash flow during this call. The comparable GAAP measure and a reconciliation for OIBDA is presented in our earnings release and in the case of free cash flow in our Form 10-K as filed today with the SEC. Before we begin, I will also note that EchoStar has filed an application that would allow us to participate in the FCC's upcoming AWS-3 spectrum auction designated as Auction 113. Pursuant to the FCC's anti-collusion rules, we are currently in a quiet period. Accordingly, we will not be making any comments or responding to any questions that relate to Auction 113.

本次電話會議中我們將提及 OIBDA 和自由現金流。可比較的 GAAP 指標和 OIBDA 的調節表已在我們的獲利報告中列出，而自由現金流的調節表已在我們今天向美國證券交易委員會提交的 10-K 表格中列出。在開始之前，我還想指出，EchoStar 已提交申請，允許我們參加 FCC 即將舉行的 AWS-3 頻譜拍賣，拍賣編號為 113。根據美國聯邦通訊委員會的反串謀規定，我們目前處於靜默期。因此，我們將不對與第 113 號拍賣相關的任何問題發表任何評論或回應。

With that, I'll turn it over to Hamid.

接下來，我將把麥克風交給哈米德。

Thank you, Dean. Welcome, everyone, and thank you for joining us today to discuss our 2025 end-of-year results. Before I hand over to Charlie, I would like to briefly comment on a few topics relevant to EchoStar Capital. As we await final regulatory approvals for our spectrum sale and the resulting influx of capital expected during the first half of this year, we remain committed to being excellent stewards of capital. We're preparing to allocate and utilize these funds based on our view of how we might maximize shareholder returns with actions spanning from immediate to over a long horizon.

謝謝你，院長。歡迎各位，感謝大家今天與我們一起討論我們 2025 年的年終業績。在將發言權交給查理之前，我想先簡單談談與EchoStar Capital相關的一些話題。在我們等待頻譜出售獲得最終監管批准以及預計在今年上半年由此帶來的資金流入之際，我們將繼續致力於成為優秀的資本管理者。我們正準備根據我們對如何最大化股東回報的看法來分配和使用這些資金，採取的行動涵蓋短期和長期兩個面向。

Our decisions are based on many considerations, including paying down expensive or maturing debt obligations, our current and anticipated tax liabilities and any mitigating avenues and investments and development opportunities at EchoStar Capital versus returning excess capital to the shareholders through the common short-term remuneration options. These considerations are both complex and interrelated, further complicated by dynamic external factors such as the possibility and the timing of a potential SpaceX IPO.

我們的決策基於諸多考量，包括償還高成本或即將到期的債務、我們當前和預期的稅務責任以及 EchoStar Capital 的任何緩解途徑和投資發展機會，以及透過常見的短期薪酬方案將多餘資本返還給股東。這些因素既複雜又相互關聯，加上SpaceX潛在IPO的可能性和時機等動態外在因素，讓情況更加複雜。

With this context as background, it would be difficult and potentially misleading for us to provide significant detail on most of these topics at this time. EchoStar is in midst of a large-scale positive transformation arising from its vision, long horizon of strategic bets and decades of diligent execution. We feel confident about our ability to continue operating on the same success principles, and navigate for the best shareholder outcome in the long run.

有鑑於此背景，我們目前很難就這些主題提供詳盡的細節，而這些細節可能會產生誤導。EchoStar正處於大規模積極轉型之中，這源於其遠見卓識、長遠的戰略佈局和數十年的勤奮執行。我們有信心繼續秉持同樣的成功原則運營，並在長期內為股東爭取最佳利益。

With that, I will now turn the call over to Charlie.

接下來，我會把電話交給查理。

Thanks, Hamid. And as you guys know, I don't have any -- I don't normally have any opening statements and I don't today. So we will just jump into questions.

謝謝你，哈米德。你們也知道，我通常沒有任何開場白，今天也沒有。那我們就直接進入問答環節吧。

(Operator Instructions) Our first question comes from Sebastiano Petti with JPMorgan.

（操作員說明）我們的第一個問題來自摩根大通的塞巴斯蒂亞諾·佩蒂。

Charlie or Hamid, I want to see if you could update us on how you're thinking about passive versus active investments within EchoStar Capital notwithstanding your prepared remarks, is that still the right avenue or how you're kind of thinking about it? And within that context, given anticipated IPO of SpaceX, would increasing or EchoStar's stake within SpaceX be something you would be considering?

Charlie 或 Hamid，我想了解你們對 EchoStar Capital 內部被動投資與主動投資的看法，拋開你們事先準備好的發言稿，這是否仍然是正確的方向，或者你們現在是如何考慮的？在此背景下，考慮到SpaceX預計將進行IPO，您是否會考慮增加EchoStar在SpaceX的股份？

And then Charlie, big picture question. EchoStar did have an announcement about a D2D constellation, which obviously you will not be pursuing, but how do you think you see -- how do you see that ecosystem evolving having spent decades around the industry, particularly the convergence of wireless and satellite? I think you have a unique perspective. So I just love to hear your thoughts. Do you see this as complementary?

然後，查理，問一個更宏觀的問題。EchoStar 確實發布了關於 D2D 星座的公告，顯然你們不會參與其中，但是，鑑於你在這個行業待了幾十年，特別是無線和衛星的融合，你如何看待這個生態系統的發展？我認為你擁有獨特的視角。所以我很想聽聽你的想法。你認為這是互補關係嗎？

Do you see this as a threat to the incumbents having experience trying to be a fourth player yourself?

你認為這對現有參與者構成威脅嗎？你自己也有嘗試成為第四大參與者的經驗。

I will try to -- Sebastiano, I'll try to answer the first few questions, are all wrapped in one. I apologize if I missed some of it. Please repeat that. Look, EchoStar Capital, as I mentioned, we are looking at every possibility for utilization of the liquidity and cash when it arrives. As I mentioned, we're looking at short-term options, traditional, return to the shareholders through the best means.

我會盡量——塞巴斯蒂亞諾，我會盡量回答前幾個問題，這些問題都包含在一個問題裡。如果我遺漏了某些內容，我深感抱歉。請再說一次。正如我之前提到的，EchoStar Capital，我們正在考慮各種可能性，以便在流動資金和現金到帳後加以利用。正如我之前提到的，我們正在考慮短期方案，也就是傳統的方案，透過最佳方式為股東帶來回報。

Obviously, we're looking at the long horizon for creating value, all of this in the context of taxation and how the net return to the shareholders may be. We're obviously looking at our opportunities every single day and judging that against what other options may be available. So it's a long answer to a short question, but honestly, that is the case. It would be foolish to do anything other than that.

顯然，我們著眼於創造價值的長遠目標，所有這一切都是在稅收以及股東淨回報的背景下進行的。我們顯然每天都在審視各種機會，並將其與可能存在的其他選擇進行比較。所以，雖然問題很簡單，但答案很長，不過說實話，情況就是這樣。除此之外的任何做法都是愚蠢的。

We don't -- actually until the closing, we don't have actually SpaceX as equity. So that is not something that we can make any plans on until we actually get the equity. We have a right to it, but we don't have the -- we actually don't have that equity yet. So we'll see how that plays out. IPO may happen. Obviously, it will happen independent of our plans, but we'll make sure that we maximize our options around the timing whenever that shows up and what options we might have.

實際上，在交易完成之前，我們並沒有持有 SpaceX 的股份。所以，在我們實際獲得股權之前，我們無法對此制定任何計劃。我們有權利擁有它，但我們還沒有——實際上，我們還沒有獲得那種權益。所以，我們拭目以待。IPO可能會發生。顯然，這件事的發生與我們的計劃無關，但我們會確保在事情發生的時機和我們可能擁有的選擇方面，最大限度地利用我們的各種機會。

In terms of holding the size of the equity we have from SpaceX, I think we're very happy with that at this point. I don't think we are actively looking necessarily to make any transactions at this point based on that. So that remains on our balance sheet until we get it. And then after that, we'll decide how to proceed depending on the conditions at that time. I am looking at both active and passive investments, again, depending on the return.

就我們目前持有的 SpaceX 股權規模而言，我認為我們對此感到非常滿意。我認為我們目前並沒有基於此積極尋求進行任何交易。所以，在我們收到款項之前，這筆款項會一直保留在我們的資產負債表上。之後，我們將根據當時的具體情況決定下一步的行動方案。我正在考慮主動投資和被動投資，這主要取決於回報。

So we'll keep you posted as soon as we get to a point that we actually have that cash at hand and ready to make some transactions. Charlie, I think the rest is for you.

所以，一旦我們手頭上有了現金，可以進行交易了，我們會立即通知您。查理，我想剩下的就交給你了。

Yes. So on direct-to-device, I mean, obviously, we're disappointed that we weren't able to continue with something we've built over 17 years. And I think we're proud of the fact that we've helped create an ecosystem for a direct-to-device. And I think that we're also pleased that -- and we've made our bet and that's with SpaceX and Starlink, we see them as the most viable company to do that. And with their tremendous technology and launch capabilities, they're well positioned to certainly be a leader in that.

是的。所以就直接面向設備而言，我的意思是，很顯然，我們很失望，因為我們無法繼續我們花了 17 年建立的東西。我認為我們很自豪，因為我們幫助創建了一個直接面向設備的生態系統。而且我認為我們也很高興——我們已經做出了選擇，那就是選擇 SpaceX 和 Starlink，我們認為他們是實現這一目標最可行的公司。憑藉其強大的技術和發射能力，他們完全有能力成為該領域的領導者。

We're -- and as we publicly disclosed, we already have an agreement with them to provide that to our customers. They obviously are going to -- Mobile World Congress is going on now, I expect there'll be quite a few announcements there. There'll be other players in the marketplace. But I don't think you're going to see too much from anybody except SpaceX in the near term or Starlink in the near term. And I think that based on our experience, that's the company we think will be the leader.

正如我們公開披露的那樣，我們已經與他們達成協議，向我們的客戶提供這項服務。他們顯然會這麼做——世界行動通訊大會正在進行中，我預計屆時會有不少消息發布。市場上還會有其他競爭者。但我認為，短期內除了 SpaceX 或 Starlink 之外，你不會看到其他任何公司有太大動作。我認為，根據我們的經驗，那家公司將會成為產業領導者。

Our next question is from Brent Penter with Raymond James.

下一個問題來自 Raymond James 的 Brent Penter。

First one from me, a follow-up on Sebastiano's question on SpaceX. So based on the deals, I think you all were supposed to get around a 2.8% stake, which at the time was valued at $400 billion. As you mentioned, those deals haven't closed yet, but they've since announced the merger with xAI. So how does that xAI deal affect your ownership in terms of percentage? And how can we think about any kind of mark-to-market associated with that deal?

首先，我來回答一下塞巴斯蒂亞諾關於 SpaceX 的問題。所以根據這些交易，我認為你們都應該獲得大約 2.8% 的股份，當時的估值為 4000 億美元。正如您所提到的，這些交易尚未完成，但他們已經宣布與 xAI 合併。那麼，這筆 xAI 交易會如何影響你的持股比例？那麼，我們如何考慮與該交易相關的任何形式的市值調整？

Yes. This is Charlie. I don't think we know. I mean, I think we're not privy to what that IPO -- if an IPO happens or what it would happen, when it looked like. I think the merger appeared publicly to be something like 80-20 between xAI and Starlink. So that's probably gives you a feel for what our investment might look like. But we just don't have any -- we don't have any internal information there today.

是的。這是查理。我想我們並不清楚。我的意思是，我認為我們並不了解IPO的具體情況——如果IPO真的會發生，或者會發生什麼，以及它何時會以什麼形式出現。我認為公開看來，xAI 和 Starlink 的合併比例大約是 80:20。所以這大概能讓你對我們的投資模式有個大致了解。但我們沒有任何——我們今天沒有任何這方面的內部資訊。

Okay. That makes sense. And then the tower companies. The tower companies have announced that you all stopped paying them and you all talked about the litigation in your 10-K. Last quarter, you had said you believe that you were relieved of these payments but now you've actually stopped paying them. So I'm just wondering what actually went in the decision to take that next step and stop paying?

好的。這很有道理。然後是鐵塔公司。鐵塔公司宣布你們都停止向他們付款，你們都在 10-K 文件中談到了訴訟。上個季度，你曾表示你認為自己已經免除了這些款項，但現在你實際上已經停止支付了。所以我想知道，究竟是什麼促使你們決定採取下一步行動，停止支付費用？

Well, yes, thanks for the question. The first thing most important to us was, of course, to make sure that all of our customers on our network were not disenfranchised by the existential threat that we got when the FCC informed us of an investigation to take our spectrum. So we believe that without question, is a force majeure event. But we want to, first and foremost, take care of our customers, which we did, and we've moved successfully all our customers last year in the fourth quarter, we moved all our customers off of our network.

嗯，謝謝你的提問。對我們來說，最重要的當然是確保我們網路上的所有客戶不會因為 FCC 通知我們他們將調查並沒收我們的頻譜而受到生存威脅，從而失去權利。因此，我們毫無疑問地認為這是一起不可抗力事件。但我們首先要照顧好我們的客戶，我們也做到了，去年第四季度我們成功地將所有客戶從我們的網路中轉移出去。

At that time, given the force majeure event and the FCC's action, obviously, we have a network that generates -- we had a network that generate no income. So it -- we informed all of our vendors that we had a force majeure event as we're allowed as we have per contracts. So -- and as you know, since that time, several companies have commenced litigation against our independent DISH wires entity, which is party to the relevant tower agreements. And I'm disappointed in that because by contrast, those companies who haven't litigated, we've had good open faith negotiations, and we've settled hundreds of contracts. And most recently, we signed a settlement agreement with a large tower company who didn't commence litigation because at that point, principles can talk to principles.

當時，由於不可抗力事件和聯邦通訊委員會的行動，顯然，我們的網路無法產生任何收入。因此，我們通知了所有供應商，我們遇到了不可抗力事件，這是合約允許我們採取的措施。所以——正如您所知，自那時以來，多家公司已對我們獨立的 DISH 電線實體提起訴訟，該實體是相關鐵塔協議的當事方。我對此感到失望，因為相較之下，那些沒有提起訴訟的公司，我們進行了良好的公開誠信談判，並且我們已經解決了數百份合約。最近，我們與一家大型鐵塔公司簽署了和解協議，該公司沒有提起訴訟，因為在那個時候，雙方的原則可以進行對話。

When the other companies, it's lawyers. And so you can expect -- my experience has been that, that will be protracted litigation because the lawyers talk to the lawyers, and they don't typically in a hurry to get anything done. And it's just different than when business people talk to business people.

當其他公司遇到這種情況時，就得找律師了。所以你可以預料到——根據我的經驗，這將是一場曠日持久的訴訟，因為律師們會互相交談，他們通常不會急於做成任何事情。這與商人之間交談的方式截然不同。

I wish we weren't here. I wish -- it's an ongoing and evolving situation, but we'll continue to appropriately respond to any litigation that's been commenced. We'll assess all of our available steps in front of any courts or venues, and we'll engage with more tower companies to seek good consensual solutions. And we'll consider all our alternatives available to the company -- to the company that's party to the tower group contracts to resolve these matters.

我真希望我們不在這裡。我希望——目前情況仍在發展變化，但我們會繼續對任何已經提起的訴訟做出適當的回應。我們將評估所有可行的步驟，並向任何法院或場所提出申請，同時我們將與更多鐵塔公司接洽，尋求各方都能接受的解決方案。我們將考慮所有可行的替代方案，以解決這些問題，這些方案適用於參與鐵塔集團合約的公司。

And -- but it's obviously for the tower companies that commenced litigation, that's all public and that likely typically, the wheels of justice don't move very quick, and that will probably take some time before we actually know all the results of that. But we don't believe -- just to be clear, we don't believe we owe any money. And I think it shows our good faith that we've settled with a lot of people and attempted to engage in negotiations when people don't pick litigation.

但很顯然，對於提起訴訟的鐵塔公司來說，一切都是公開的，而且通常情況下，司法程序進展並不迅速，我們可能需要一段時間才能真正知道所有結果。但我們不認為——需要澄清的是，我們不認為我們欠任何錢。我認為，當人們不願意訴諸法律時，我們嘗試與許多人達成和解並進行談判，這表明了我們的誠意。

Okay. And can you remind us what assets exactly are held at that DISH wireless entity?

好的。請問您能否提醒我們一下，DISH無線公司具體持有哪些資產？

In general, Paul, do you want to take that?

保羅，總的來說，你想接受這個嗎？

Yes, sure. In general, it's the 5G network build. So it's all the assets that were deployed to build the network and have it operational. So antennas servers so forth. Anything you would need, radios and so forth and so on. So yes.

當然可以。總的來說，這是5G網路建設。所以，這指的是為建置網路並使其正常運作而部署的所有資產。所以天線、伺服器等等。你需要的任何物品，像是收音機等等。是的。

So kind of the other segment that you're now reporting?

所以，你現在報道的另一個面向是什麼？

Correct. The other segment has those assets in it, yes.

正確的。是的，另一部分資產也包含這些資產。

Our next question comes from David Barden with New Street Research.

我們的下一個問題來自新街研究公司的戴維·巴登。

Two, if I could. First would be just, Hamid, could you talk about how the approach to the vendor payment situation impacted fourth quarter results in the wireless segment from an EBITDA perspective? And how -- when you do reach a settlement, how does that all run through? Is there -- I guess, we're not going to be able to predict it, but it would be fun to know how it's all working.

如果可以的話，我希望有兩個。首先，哈米德，你能否從 EBITDA 的角度談談供應商付款對無線業務第四季業績的影響？如果達成和解，所有條款將如何執行？是否存在——我想，我們無法預測，但了解這一切是如何運作的會很有趣。

And then I guess, second, Charlie, just to confirm, you don't have an anti-dilution provision, it sounds like. But when you see Elon kind of plucking $1 trillion of valuation for SpaceX out of the air when it was $400 billion in June and $250 billion for xAI. As a large shareholder where a large part of your stock value is this holding, how much credence do you put in that? Like what do you really think it's worth? Because -- or do you really believe that it's worth $1.25 trillion put together?

其次，查理，我再確認一下，聽起來你們的合約裡沒有反稀釋條款。但當你看到伊隆馬斯克憑空捏造出 SpaceX 1 兆美元的估值時，而該公司在 6 月的估值只有 4,000 億美元，xAI 的估值也只有 2,500 億美元。身為一個持有大量股份的大股東，你對這份股份的信任度有多高？你覺得它到底值多少錢？因為——或者你真的相信它們加起來價值 1.25 兆美元？

Let me take the first part, and I'm going to generally answer -- I mean, take the second part, and I'll generally answer the first part and turn it maybe over to Paul. But again, I think that, again, our -- having spent decades on direct-to-device and space, it's our belief that SpaceX is a one-of-a-kind company. And I can't speak to the valuations. Markets or up and down. But space is going to be an increasingly important aspect commercially, but obviously, you're seeing militarily and other things as well.

讓我先回答第一部分，我通常會回答——我的意思是，讓我先回答第二部分，我通常會回答第一部分，然後可能會把它交給保羅。但是，我認為，我們——在直接面向設備和太空領域投入了幾十年的時間，我們相信 SpaceX 是一家獨一無二的公司。我無法對估值發表評論。市場有漲有跌。但太空在商業上將變得越來越重要，顯然，在軍事和其他領域也是如此。

So in direct-to-device, when you can connect -- it's not just phones. It's IoT, it's cars, it's anything mobility. When you connect any square in the planet, that's just a big business. And so I can only say we -- I can only say it this way that SpaceX is a company, and I'm not talking about just deal, I'm talking about the company and the management of that company. They've been the best company I've ever worked with them 45 years. They're just responsive, they're creative. They move at a pace that most companies don't.

所以，直接連接設備時，當可以連接時——不僅僅是手機。它指的是物聯網、汽車以及一切與旅行相關的事物。將地球上任何一個正方形連結起來，那都是一筆巨大的生意。所以我只能說——我只能這麼說，SpaceX 是一家公司，我說的不僅僅是一筆交易，而是指這家公司以及這家公司的管理階層。他們是我合作過的最好的公司，與他們合作已經45年了。他們反應迅速，而且很有創意。他們的發展速度遠超過大多數公司。

So I think -- I don't think any amount of valuation is probably crazy there. Obviously, we're not privy to their numbers. So we invested on faith and we invest in people, and we got the best people we can invest in. So I'm anxious to see if they do, in fact, do an IPO, obviously, there'll be a lot of things to look at. I'm anxious to look at that.

所以我認為──我認為任何估值都不算離譜。顯然，我們無從得知他們的具體數字。所以我們憑著信念進行投資，投資人才，我們找到了我們能投資的最好的人才。所以我很想看看他們是否真的會進行IPO，顯然，屆時會有很多事情需要考慮。我很想看看。

But we're not -- we don't have insight as to what -- we don't have -- we don't know what the value is, right, other than we believe in the transaction that we did, we thought that initially, we weren't getting the value for our spectrum. We thought with the growth of SpaceX that we likely could see that we could get to the value that we thought that our spectrum held and it remains to be seen. As far as what the question was about the cost of the network?

但我們並不清楚——我們不清楚——我們不知道它的價值是什麼，對吧？除了我們相信我們所做的交易之外，我們最初認為，我們的光譜並沒有得到應有的價值。我們認為隨著 SpaceX 的發展，我們或許能夠實現我們認為我們的頻譜所蘊含的價值，但這還有待觀察。至於關於網路成本的問題是什麼？

Yes. So let me address that. Thank you for the question. First of all, it's a little complicated. You have to go back to Q3 where we took the impairment charge that we recorded.

是的。那麼，讓我來談談這個問題。謝謝你的提問。首先，這有點複雜。你需要追溯到第三季度，當時我們提列了減損準備。

In that impairment charge were costs related to any future commitments where we had contracts. So for instance, the tower expenses would have been accrued for in that impairment charge. So you don't see those in the Q4 numbers. However, what you do see is just normal operating costs and accruals for normal operating costs that you have to run the network that's running through Q4. Hopefully, that makes sense.

此減損費用包括與我們未來簽訂的任何合約相關的成本。例如，塔架費用就應該計入減損費用中。所以你在第四季的數據中看不到這些數據。但是，您看到的只是正常的營運成本和正常營運成本的計提，這些成本是您在第四季度營運網路所必需的。希望這樣解釋清楚了。

(Operator Instructions) Our next question comes from Bryan Kraft with Deutsche Bank.

（操作員說明）我們的下一個問題來自德意志銀行的布萊恩‧克拉夫特。

I had a couple, if you don't mind. First, I wanted to ask what the path is to getting the wireless business to profitability on an EBITDA basis? Secondly, I just wanted to ask you, how quickly do those connectivity expenses in the other segment go away over the course of 2026? It looks like about 70% might have been gone in 4Q based on the math I did. I don't know if that's right.

如果你不介意的話，我這裡有兩份。首先，我想請問無線業務要如何才能達到 EBITDA 獲利？其次，我想問一下，到 2026 年，其他領域的這些連線費用會以多快的速度消失？根據我的計算，第四季似乎已經損失了大約 70%。我不知道這樣是否正確。

But trying to figure out, does that go to 0 in 1Q or 2Q? And then the last part of my question is, is it still your expectation that total decommissioning costs will be in that $7 billion to $10 billion range? And is there any further granularity that you could share on the tax liability component of that?

但我想知道，這個數字是在第一季還是第二季變成 0？最後，我的問題之一是，您是否仍然預計退役總成本將在 70 億美元至 100 億美元之間？關於這部分稅負，您能否提供更詳細的資訊？

Paul, do you want to take that?

保羅，你想拿嗎？

Yes. So the first on the Q4 cost that you had for the other segments. What you're going to see is over time, as we decommission all of our tower sites that, that number will decline. As you pointed out, it's not down to 0 yet, but you'll see a big decrease in that in Q1 and Q2. One thing to keep in mind, though, those numbers do include that -- if you back into that number, it does include the noncash accretion on the lease liability.

是的。所以，首先是第四季其他部分的成本。隨著時間的推移，隨著我們逐步關閉所有信號塔站點，你會看到這個數字會下降。正如你所指出的，雖然還沒有降到 0，但你會看到第一季和第二季大幅下降。不過要記住的一點是，這些數字確實包含了這一點——如果你反推這個數字，它確實包含了租賃負債的非現金增加。

So like we talked about in the Q3 earnings call, we discounted back to today's dollars, the amounts that we owed on the lease and took that as an impairment charge. We need to accrete that up over time. And so that's probably about half of the number that you're seeing going through the P&L there.

正如我們在第三季財報電話會議上所討論的那樣，我們將租賃合約項下的欠款折算成今天的美元，並將其作為減值費用計入。我們需要隨著時間的推移慢慢累積起來。所以，這大概是你在損益表上看到的金額的一半左右。

Okay. And then on the -- on how do we get DISH Wireless positive, profitable. I've now been involved in the last couple of months in the day-to-day operations. And so the -- it's disappointing where we are after 4 years. But we're very, very close to a breakeven business there.

好的。然後，我們要討論的是——如何讓 DISH Wireless 實現盈利。在過去的幾個月裡，我一直參與日常營運。所以——四年過去了，我們目前的處境令人失望。但我們離實現損益平衡已經非常非常接近了。

And I can tell you the way I look at it. The way I look at it is I look at the total cost of running that, including the hybrid core because that obviously has cost. It doesn't have as much cost as the network, but it obviously has cost.

我可以告訴你我的看法。我的看法是，我會考慮運行它的總成本，包括混合核心的成本，因為混合核心顯然是有成本的。雖然它的成本不如網路那麼高，但顯然也是有成本的。

And then I look at it for every new customer we get, are they a profitable customer. In other words, I know we're making profit on the customers we have today. We've already invested in those customers.

然後，對於我們獲得的每位新客戶，我都會考慮他們是否能帶來利潤。換句話說，我知道我們從現有客戶身上是獲利的。我們已經對這些客戶進行了投資。

[Technical Difficulty]

【技術故障】

I've seen and that we can do that. And -- but every company that we have here has to stand on its own. And we're not -- we're for-profit companies, and we have to make a profit in every -- in all our businesses. And so that will be the focus there. But we're close to being where we need to get to turn the corner, but we're not there yet. And then there was one other question, which -- I didn't quite understand the other question.

我已經看到，我們能夠做到這一點。但是──我們這裡的每家公司都必須獨立發展。我們不是一家營利性公司，我們必須在所有業務中獲利。所以，那將是那裡的重點。但我們離扭轉局面的目標已經很近了，不過我們還沒到終點。然後還有一個問題，我不太明白這個問題。

Is your expectation on the decommissioning cost in the $7 billion to $10 billion range that you had previously given. Is that still what you expect? And is there any further update you could give on the tax liability on the spectrum transactions?

你先前預測的退休成本是否在 70 億至 100 億美元之間？你仍然希望如此嗎？關於頻譜交易的稅務責任，您能否提供任何進一步的最新資訊？

Yes. I think that the -- I think we've written off about $16 billion on the network decommissioning, which included all the operational costs. And so it's a significant -- I mean we made a significant investment, and I think we wrote off about $16 billion. We think that in terms of taxes and further decommissioning that, that is somewhere in the -- I think we believe that's in the $5 billion to $7 billion range today.

是的。我認為——我認為我們已經註銷了大約 160 億美元的網路退役費用，其中包括所有營運成本。所以這是一筆重大的投資——我的意思是，我們進行了一筆巨大的投資，我認為我們註銷了大約 160 億美元。我們認為，就稅收和進一步退休而言，這筆費用大概在——我認為我們目前認為這筆費用在 50 億至 70 億美元之間。

I think that's what we announced last quarter, but it's definitely -- there's nothing -- there's been no movement in our analysis of that yet. And obviously, it may take some time -- given the litigation, it may take some time to get the final answer. But it's in the $5 billion to $7 billion range is where we are today.

我認為這是我們在上個季度宣布的內容，但目前為止，我們的分析還沒有任何進展。顯然，這可能需要一些時間——考慮到訴訟，可能需要一些時間才能得到最終答案。但就目前來看，這個數字在 50 億到 70 億美元之間。

So sorry, $5 billion to $7 billion is your updated view versus the $7 billion to $10 billion previously or -- just trying to clarify that?

非常抱歉，您更新後的預期是 50 億至 70 億美元，而不是之前的 70 億至 100 億美元，還是——我只是想確認一下？

I think our really initial reaction was $7 billion to $10 billion. And I think when in Paris, maybe that number came out. But I think last quarter, I think we -- I think there was a range even in Paris of 5% to 10%, and I think we got that down to 5% to 7%. That doesn't mean -- I mean that's our best guess today, right, for taxes and decommissioning costs.

我認為我們最初的反應是70億到100億美元。我想，或許是在巴黎的時候，那個數字出現了。但我認為上個季度，我認為我們——我認為即使在巴黎，失業率也在 5% 到 10% 之間，而我們將其降至 5% 到 7%。但這並不意味著——我的意思是，這是我們目前對稅收和退休成本的最佳估計，對吧。

And to clarify, that's cash payments that we think we would make.

需要澄清的是，這些是我們預計會支付的現金。

It's dynamic, as I mentioned in my opening remarks, taxes, liabilities, investments, everything else, value with SpaceX, everything else is interrelated. It's a dynamic picture. It's impossible, literally impossible to nail it down right now, given all the movements, some internal, some external beyond our control.

正如我在開場白中提到的，它是動態的，稅收、負債、投資、其他一切，以及 SpaceX 的價值，其他一切都是相互關聯的。這是一幅充滿活力的畫面。鑑於目前各種因素的影響，有些是內在因素，有些是外在因素，我們無法控制，所以現在要準確判斷是不可能的，真的是不可能的。

So anything we give you outside of the estimation that we have, even the estimation we have is just an estimation. I mean, things are changing very rapidly, and it will be misleading for us to give you a very precise number that can change tomorrow afternoon. So just -- that's the best we could do today. But obviously, as the variables get reduced over time, we can give you a much narrower range.

所以，除了我們已有的估算之外，我們提供的任何信息，甚至我們已有的估算也只是估算而已。我的意思是，情況變化非常快，如果我們給你一個非常精確的數字，因為這個數字明天下午就會發生變化，那將會誤導你。所以，這就是我們今天能做到的最好結果了。但顯然，隨著時間的推移，變數會減少，我們可以給你一個更窄的範圍。

Our next question comes from John Hodulik with UBS.

下一個問題來自瑞銀集團的約翰‧霍杜利克。

A couple of questions for Charlie, if I could. First, Charlie, any high-level thoughts on the Paramount-Warner Bros. deal? What that means for linear TV distribution? And maybe do you think it will affect the industry's ability to offer skinny bundles going forward, which seem to be driving a lot of the improvement we've seen in cord cutting?

如果可以的話，我想問查理幾個問題。首先，查理，你對派拉蒙-華納兄弟的交易有什麼高屋建瓴的看法嗎？這對傳統電視發行意味著什麼？你認為這是否會影響該產業未來提供精簡套餐的能力？而精簡套餐似乎是推動用戶減少有線電視訂閱量成長的主要動力之一。

And then number two, I don't know how much you can comment on this given the upcoming auction, but just anything you can say about further spectrum sales, maybe timing or whether we should expect them and sort of the value of your sort of remaining spectrum holdings?

第二點，鑑於即將舉行的拍賣，我不知道您能對此發表多少評論，但您能否談談進一步的頻譜出售，例如時間安排，或者我們是否應該期待會有出售，以及您剩餘頻譜持有量的價值？

Yes. Well, on Paramount-Warner Bros, I'd say, we've had good relationships with both of those companies for a long, long time. Obviously, they're going to have a lot -- they're going to have a long regulatory process. So we'll have to see how that goes. But it's further concentration in an industry that is changing and -- technically.

是的。至於派拉蒙-華納兄弟，我想說，我們與這兩家公司一直保持著良好的關係，而且這種關係已經持續了很長時間。顯然，他們會面臨很多問題——他們會經歷一個漫長的監管過程。所以，我們得看看結果如何。但這對於一個正在不斷變化且技術上不斷進步的行業來說，是一種進一步的集中化。

And I always worry when you're competing against your own distributors. I mean, when they have a direct line to the consumer and you're competing against that, and they're a valued vendor, that obviously will -- is something that we have to keep our eye on. But we'll wait for their filings, and they're both great companies and great management for both of those two. So we'll see at the appropriate time whether we have any concerns. The -- and then on -- what was the second question?

我總是擔心與自己的經銷商競爭。我的意思是，當他們擁有直接面向消費者的管道，而你又要與他們競爭，而且他們還是重要的供應商，這顯然會——是我們必須密切關注的事情。但我們會等待他們的文件，而且這兩家公司都很優秀，管理階層也很出色。所以我們會在適當的時候看看是否有任何問題。然後——接著——第二個問題是什麼來著？

Spectrum sales.

頻譜銷售。

Spectrum sales, again, because of the auction, I'll be very -- I'm going to be very careful here. But look, it -- I think we agree with the leadership of the FCC that -- which is one of the things to do here is to get spectrum and get it used as quickly as we can. And that's led to the kind of situation that we're in today. And I think our goal is to find the spectrum that we continue to use -- continue to have is find a home for that, for the -- make sure that, that's going to get used in the quickest and fastest and the best way for consumers and for leadership, technical leadership in the United States. And I hope maybe we play a part in that, but we may not. So -- but it's still obviously a valuable asset that we have.

頻譜銷售，再次強調，由於是拍賣，我會非常——我會非常謹慎。但是，我認為我們同意 FCC 領導層的觀點，那就是——我們必須盡快獲得頻譜並加以利用。而這便導致了我們今天所處的這種局面。我認為我們的目標是找到我們繼續使用的光譜——繼續擁有的光譜——為它找到歸宿，確保它能夠以最快、最有效的方式為消費者和美國的領導者、技術領導者所用。我希望我們或許能為此出一份力，但也可能不會。所以——但這顯然仍然是我們擁有的寶貴資產。

So I don't think we have any further questions. So I just want to make one thing. We are not going to -- we don't plan today to have a conference call in a couple of months after the first quarter. We certainly will have filings, but I don't think we'll have a lot to add to what we had today. I think we do plan to have a conference call after the second quarter.

所以我想我們應該沒有其他問題了。所以我只想做一件事。我們不打算——我們目前沒有計劃在第一季結束後的幾個月內召開電話會議。我們肯定會提交文件，但我認為除了今天提交的文件之外，不會有太多補充。我認為我們計劃在第二季結束後召開一次電話會議。

I think that hopefully, regulatory and our company looks and Hamid's had time to get some structure around what he's doing. And I think we can give you a pretty good snapshot of where we're going.

我認為，希望監管機構和我們公司都能注意到這一點，而哈米德也有時間對他的工作進行一些結構化的安排。我認為我們可以向你們大致介紹一下我們的發展方向。

But we're -- obviously, we're optimistic about what we have and our ability to compete. And so we look forward to August. If there's material changes in the marketplace or something, we could have a call. But at this point, we believe it's going to be August or -- right into July or early August before we have another call unless something happens in the meantime, which we could have a call at any time, if that was the case. So thanks, everybody, for joining.

但很顯然，我們對我們所擁有的東西以及我們的競爭能力充滿信心。因此，我們期待著八月的到來。如果市場發生重大變化或其他情況，我們可能會打電話討論。但就目前而言，我們認為下次通話要等到八月，或者更早，甚至到七月初或八月初，除非在此期間發生什麼情況，如果發生這種情況，我們隨時都可能通話。謝謝大家的參與。

Thank you, everyone.

謝謝大家。

This concludes today's conference. You may disconnect your lines at this time, and we thank you for your participation.

今天的會議到此結束。現在您可以斷開線路了，感謝您的配合。