Pampa Energia SA (PAM) 2026 Q1 法說會逐字稿

We would like to welcome everyone to Pampa Energia's first-quarter Of 2026 results video conference. We would like to inform you that this event is being recorded. (Operator Instructions). Before continuing, please read the disclaimer on the second page of our presentation. Let me mention that forward-looking statements are based on Pampa Energia's management beliefs and assumptions and information currently available to the company. They involve risks, uncertainties and assumptions because they are related to future events that may or may not occur.

我們歡迎各位參加 Pampa Energia 2026 年第一季業績視訊會議。我們在此告知，本活動將被錄音。(接線員指示)。在繼續之前，請閱讀我們簡報第二頁的免責聲明。我想提及，前瞻性陳述係基於 Pampa Energia 管理層的信念與假設，以及公司目前可得之資訊。由於其涉及可能發生或不發生的未來事件，因此包含風險、不確定性與假設。

Investors should understand that general economic and industry conditions and other operating factors could also affect the future results of Pampa Energia and could cause results to differ materially from those expressed in such forward-looking statements. Now I will turn to Lida. Thank you, Lida.

投資人應理解，一般經濟與產業狀況以及其他營運因素亦可能影響 Pampa Energia 未來業績，並可能導致實際結果與該等前瞻性陳述所表達者存在重大差異。現在我把時間交給 Lida。謝謝你，Lida。

Thank you, Raquel. Hello, everyone, and thank you for joining us. I will make a quick summary, so we can spend more time on the Q&A with the senior management. Today, we have our CEO, Mr. Gustavo Mariani; our Head of Oil and Gas, Mr. Horacio Turri; and our CFO, Mr. Adolfo Zuberbuhler.

謝謝你，Raquel。各位好，感謝各位加入。我將先做一個快速摘要，以便我們能把更多時間留給與高階管理團隊的問答。今天出席的有我們的執行長 Gustavo Mariani 先生；油氣事業負責人 Horacio Turri 先生；以及財務長 Adolfo Zuberbuhler 先生。

In Q1, production exceeded 100,000 barrels of oil equivalent per day, reaching a new quarterly all-time high, driven by the sustained ramp-up at Rincon de Aranda and higher gas output under the new power generation framework. Rincon de Aranda, which began ramping up a year ago, is now producing approximately 25,000 barrels of oil per day as of today.

第一季產量超過每日 100,000 桶油當量，創下新的單季歷史新高，主要受 Rincon de Aranda 持續爬坡增產，以及在新發電框架下天然氣產量提高所帶動。Rincon de Aranda 於一年前開始爬坡增產，截至目前每日約生產 25,000 桶原油。

With the new regulatory framework, we also had a positive impact on our Power Generation segment as our non-PPA CCGTs benefited from stronger spot margins, dispatch margins. Also leveraging our solid balance sheet, in April, we successfully issued $200 million in three-year bullet notes at a highly competitive rate of 5.49 fixed rate.

在新的監管框架下，我們的發電事業亦受到正面影響，因為非 PPA 的複循環燃氣渦輪機（CCGT）受惠於更強勁的現貨價差與調度價差。此外，憑藉穩健的資產負債表，我們於 4 月成功發行 2 億美元、三年期到期一次還本（bullet）的票據，固定利率 5.49%，利率極具競爭力。

Adjusted EBITDA amounted to $325 million. This is 48% up year-on-year. As mentioned before, Rincon de Aranda gas operations and power generation were the main contributors. Rincon de Aranda alone represented 17% of the quarter's total EBITDA, increasing 8x versus Q1 last year.

調整後 EBITDA 為 3.25 億美元。年增 48%。如前所述，Rincon de Aranda 的天然氣業務與發電業務為主要貢獻來源。僅 Rincon de Aranda 就占本季總 EBITDA 的 17%，較去年第一季成長 8 倍。

Quarter-on-quarter, EBITDA grew 41%, supported by synergies between gas and power businesses as Loma De La Lata and Genelba CCGTs self-supply gas for thermal dispatch, enhancing spot margins. The CapEx rose 36% year-on-year to $242 million during the quarter, of which $163 million were invested in the development of Rincon de Aranda.

與前一季相比，EBITDA 成長 41%，主要受天然氣與發電業務間的綜效支持；Loma De La Lata 與 Genelba 的 CCGT 以自供天然氣進行火力調度，提升現貨價差。本季資本支出（CapEx）年增 36% 至 2.42 億美元，其中 1.63 億美元投入 Rincon de Aranda 的開發。

Moving on to Slide 4. The Oil and Gas adjusted EBITDA was $104 million in Q1, 2.5x last year, driven by Rincon de Aranda, higher gas production for self supply to our thermal power plants, exports and industrial demand. These factors were partially offset by lower realized crude oil prices and higher royalties, transport and treatment costs associated with the production growth.

接著看第 4 頁投影片。第一季油氣事業調整後 EBITDA 為 1.04 億美元，為去年同期的 2.5 倍，主要受 Rincon de Aranda 帶動，以及為自供我們火力電廠而增加的天然氣產量、出口與工業需求提升所推動。上述因素部分被較低的原油實現價格，以及隨產量成長而增加的權利金、運輸與處理成本所抵銷。

Rincon de Aranda contributed 54% of the segment's EBITDA in this quarter, up from the 15% last year. Quarter-on-quarter, EBITDA increased by 36%, mainly due to higher gas demand for CCGT self-supply and exports to Chile. As we mentioned before, total production averaged more than 100,000 barrels equivalent per day, primarily contributed by Rincon de Aranda and Sierra Chata, partially offset by lower output from our non-operated blocks and in El Mangrullo.

Rincon de Aranda 本季貢獻該事業部 EBITDA 的 54%，高於去年同期的 15%。與前一季相比，EBITDA 增加 36%，主要因 CCGT 自供氣需求增加以及對智利出口提升。如前所述，總產量平均超過每日 100,000 桶油當量，主要由 Rincon de Aranda 與 Sierra Chata 貢獻；部分被我們非營運區塊以及 El Mangrullo 的較低產量所抵銷。

The production mix continued to diversify with oil accounting for 19% of total production, entirely driven by Rincon de Aranda. Lifting costs averaged $6.1 per BOE. This is down 11% last year and 23% sequentially, explained by higher oil and gas output outpacing a stable cost base and the divestment of mature non-operating -- non-operated oil assets.

產量組合持續多元化，原油占總產量的 19%，完全由 Rincon de Aranda 所帶動。開採成本平均為每桶油當量 6.1 美元。較去年下降 11%，較前一季下降 23%，原因在於油氣產量增加超過相對穩定的成本基礎，以及出售成熟的非營運——非自營原油資產。

Gas lifting costs decreased 10% year-on-year to $0.90 per million Btu and 23% quarter-on-quarter lower. This is supported by higher gas output. Oil lifting costs declined sharply to below $10 per barrel from $41 in Q1 last year, thanks again to Rincon de Aranda's ramp-up and the divestment of mature fields.

天然氣開採成本年減 10% 至每百萬 Btu 0.90 美元，且較前一季下降 23%。此係由較高的天然氣產量所支撐。原油開採成本亦大幅下降，從去年第一季每桶 41 美元降至每桶 10 美元以下，同樣受惠於 Rincon de Aranda 的爬坡增產以及成熟油田的出售。

Focusing on crude oil, output multiplied by 6 year-on-year to 19,500 barrels per day as Rincon de Aranda ramp up following the commissioning of the Duplicar trunk pipeline last year's April. Realized prices averaged $58 per barrel in Q1. This is 15% lower than last year due to the oil hedge. Without the hedge, realized prices will have been more than $69 per barrel, resulting in approximately $21 million of additional revenue.

聚焦原油方面，隨著去年 4 月 Duplicar 幹線管線投運後 Rincon de Aranda 持續爬坡增產，原油產量年增 6 倍至每日 19,500 桶。第一季實現價格平均為每桶 58 美元。由於原油避險，較去年低 15%。若不計避險，實現價格將超過每桶 69 美元，約可增加 2,100 萬美元營收。

Exports accounted for 55% of total volumes sold in Q1. At Rincon de Aranda, the ramp-up continues to progress as planned. Average production during Q1 reached 18,200 barrels per day across 43 producing wells, up 7% quarter-on-quarter. In Q1 last year, production was below 1,000 barrels per day.

第一季出口占總銷售量的 55%。在 Rincon de Aranda，爬坡增產持續按計畫推進。第一季平均產量在 43 口生產井合計達每日 18,200 桶，較前一季增加 7%。去年第一季產量低於每日 1,000 桶。

During Q1 this year, 6 wells were drilled and 15 wells were tied in, of which seven came online last March, bringing the quarter's exit rate to more than 21,000 barrels per day. For the remainder of the year, we expect to tie in an additional 20 wells and reach 28,000 barrels per day milestone by mid this year, mid-2026, supported by the second temporary facility that was commissioned in late March.

今年第一季共鑽 6 口井並完成 15 口井接管投產，其中 7 口於 3 月上線，使本季期末退出產量（exit rate）超過每日 21,000 桶。在今年剩餘期間，我們預期將再接管投產 20 口井，並在今年年中（2026 年年中）達到每日 28,000 桶的里程碑；此將受惠於第二座臨時設施於 3 月下旬投運。

We target a production plateau of 45,000 barrels per day once the central processing facility and the Vaca Muerta Oil Sur pipeline are online. It is worth noting that Rincon de Aranda completed its first full-year of operations with clear efficiency gains already visible. Drilling performance improved from 200 meters per day on the first pad last year to nearly 330 meters per day on the most recent pad. This is more than a 50% improvement.

當中央處理設施以及 Vaca Muerta Oil Sur 管線上線後，我們目標達到每日 45,000 桶的產量平台。值得注意的是，Rincon de Aranda 已完成首個完整營運年度，且效率提升已清楚可見。鑽井表現從去年第一個井場每日 200 公尺提升至最近井場接近每日 330 公尺。提升幅度超過 50%。

Completion activity also improved from almost 7 to 9 stages per day, an increase of over 30%. This improvement reflects the team's consistent execution and shorter cycle times across the development program. Also, on March 9, we submitted the project's application to the RIGI incentive program, which is expected to accelerate the development in the northern area of Rincon de Aranda support a fast ramp-up and sustain plateau production for a longer period. The estimated investment under the project amounts to $4.5 billion, including new shale oil wells and associated infrastructure. Approval remains pending.

完井作業亦從每日近 7 段提升至每日 9 段，增幅超過 30%。此改善反映團隊在整體開發計畫中持續穩定的執行力，以及更短的週期時間。此外，我們於 3 月 9 日向 RIGI 獎勵計畫提交本專案申請，預期將加速 Rincon de Aranda 北部區域的開發，支持快速爬坡增產，並使平台期產量得以維持更長時間。該專案預估投資金額為 45 億美元，包含新增頁岩油井及相關基礎設施。目前仍待核准。

Moving on to the gas. Production grew 17% year-on-year and 28% from Q4 to almost 14 million cubic meters per day, driven by gas sales supply to our CCGTs under the new power market framework, higher exports to Chile and stronger industrial demand. Exported volumes increased 65% year-on-year from 900,000 cubic meters per day to 1.5 million, yes. We expect these levels to continue throughout the remainder of the year.

接著談天然氣。在新電力市場框架下，供應我們 CCGT 的售氣量增加，加上對智利出口提升與工業需求走強，帶動天然氣產量年增 17%，較第四季成長 28%，接近每日 1,400 萬立方公尺。出口量年增 65%，由每日 90 萬立方公尺增至 150 萬，是的。我們預期這些水準將在今年剩餘期間持續。

El Mangrullo and Sierra Chata, our two operated blocks accounted for 88% of the total gas production. No new wells were connected during the Q1, although a new path tied in during the Q4 at Sierra Chata explains the 70% % year-on-year growth, while El Mangrullo just dropped slightly 7%.

El Mangrullo 與 Sierra Chata 這兩個由我們營運的區塊，占總天然氣產量的 88%。第一季未有新井接入；不過，Sierra Chata 在第四季接入了一條新管線，解釋了年增 70% 的成長，而 El Mangrullo 則僅小幅下降 7%。

During the quarter, Sierra Chata drilled three new wells, so completed the 4-well DUC pad. For the second half of the year, the plan includes drilling two additional pads and tie in one pad before the winter aligned with the seasonal gas demand from our power generation business.

本季 Sierra Chata 鑽了三口新井，因而完成了 4 口井的 DUC 井場。下半年計畫包括再鑽兩個井場，並在冬季前接入其中一個井場，以配合我們發電業務的季節性天然氣需求。

At El Mangrullo, the plan is just to drill a 6-well pad, which will remain as a DUC inventory. Gas prices averaged $2.9 per million BTU, flat year-on-year due to the lower export prices, offset by higher retail prices as tariffs increased above peso devaluation. In Q1, 47% of our gas was sold under planned gas GSAs through CE and retailers, down from the 82% exposure last year following the transfer of set GSAs to our CCGTs.

在 El Mangrullo，計畫僅是鑽一個 6 口井的井場，並將其保留為 DUC 庫存。天然氣價格平均為每百萬 BTU 2.9 美元，年比持平，原因是出口價格較低，但隨著費率調升幅度高於披索貶值，零售價格上升抵銷了影響。第一季，我們有 47% 的天然氣透過 CE 與零售商，依計畫性的天然氣 GSA 銷售；相較去年 82% 的曝險比重下降，係因既定 GSA 轉移至我們的 CCGT 機組。

As a result, Interco consumption -- actually intersegment consumption increased to 32% of total sales compared to just a marginal 2% last year. Under the new framework, we expect approximately 40% this year's production to supply our own power generation assets. As for power generation in the Slide 7, we posted adjusted EBITDA of $144 million in Q1.

因此，Interco 用量——實際上是跨部門用量——占總銷售的比重提高至 32%，而去年僅約 2%。在新框架下，我們預期今年約 40% 的產量將供應自有發電資產。至於第 7 頁投影片的發電業務，我們第一季調整後 EBITDA 為 1.44 億美元。

This is 11% year-on-year and 30% quarter-on-quarter increase, mainly driven by stronger spot margins at our CCGTs under the new guidelines in the wholesale electricity market, which operates under a marginal pricing system that benefit efficient units. Total availability fell, though to 90%, mainly due to the ongoing outages in Willes since January last year and the outage that we had in the gas turbine number 4 in Loma De La Lata.

這較去年同期成長 11%、較前一季成長 30%，主要受惠於新指引下，我們 CCGT 在批發電力市場的即期利差更強；該市場採邊際定價制度，有利於效率較高的機組。總可用率雖下降至 90%，主要因自去年 1 月以來 Willes 持續停機，以及 Loma De La Lata 的第 4 號燃氣渦輪機停機所致。

This is not a CCGT, which is expected to return in service in next month in June and a scheduled maintenance at Barragan. However, Pampa's thermal availability continues to outperform the peers in the national grid, as you can see in the chart. In addition, 32% of our installed capacity was contracted in the B2B market, whether it's PPAs with CAMMESA or in the maps, covering the levels before the implementation of the framework.

這不是 CCGT，預計將於下個月 6 月恢復運轉，另 Barragan 也有一次例行維護。不過，Pampa 的火力機組可用率仍持續優於國家電網中的同業，如圖表所示。此外，我們裝置容量中有 32% 在 B2B 市場簽約，不論是與 CAMMESA 的 PPA 或在 maps 中，涵蓋了該框架實施前的水準。

Regarding the expansion of the Perito Moreno gas pipeline and its final sections toward Buenos Aires Metro area, on April 15, TGS awarded the tender's first tranche corresponding to 4.8 million cubic meters per day out of the 12 meters per day of expansion in the transportation capacity. This is 40% of the expansion. Pampa secured 3.2 million cubic meters per day, representing 27% of the expansion capacity and 2/3 of the first tranche tender.

關於 Perito Moreno 天然氣管線擴建及其通往布宜諾斯艾利斯都會區的末端路段，4 月 15 日，TGS 授予招標第一批次，對應運輸能力擴增 1,200 萬立方公尺/日中的 480 萬立方公尺/日。這相當於擴建量的 40%。Pampa 取得 320 萬立方公尺/日，代表擴建容量的 27%，亦為第一批次招標的 2/3。

The transportation contract is for 35 years under take-or-pay or in this context, it is cheap or pay and requires prepayment of the first 15 years of tariffs, which in our case, amounted to approximately $330 million VAT included, payable in 4 installments with final maturity in next year, April. The expansion is expected to begin operations during the winter of 2027.

該運輸合約為期 35 年，採 take-or-pay，或在此情境下稱為「運送或付費（ship-or-pay）」；並要求預付前 15 年的費率。我們的預付款約為 3.30 億美元（含增值稅），分 4 期支付，最終到期日在明年 4 月。擴建預計於 2027 年冬季開始營運。

Participation in this gas pipeline expansion is underpinned by a clear economic rationale Under the new power market framework, electricity generated using gas transported through new infrastructure such as the Perito Moreno and its final sections expansion captures the full dispatch margin when sold in the spot market with an FRA of PAA equal to one.

參與此次管線擴建有明確的經濟邏輯支撐：在新的電力市場框架下，使用 Perito Moreno 及其末端路段等新基礎設施所運輸的天然氣來發電，若以 FRA 的 PAA 等於 1 在即期市場出售，將可取得完整的調度利差。

Therefore, a new deregulation guidelines creates two key drivers of profitability for Pampa. We secure additional transportation capacity for additional gas produced from our upstream operations for self supply, enable further modernization of our reserves. Second, it enhances the profitability of our power generation assets, particularly our CCGTs.

因此，新的去管制指引為 Pampa 創造兩項關鍵獲利驅動因素。我們可為上游作業新增產氣取得額外運輸容量以供自用，並促進我們儲量的進一步現代化。第二，它提升我們發電資產的獲利能力，特別是我們的 CCGT。

Turning on to the cash flow on Page 8. We show the parent company figures aligned with the bond perimeter. Free cash flow was negative $404 million in the Q1, explained by collateral requirements related to the oil hedge, intensive CapEx at Rincon de Aranda. On top of that, we have the payments associated with last year's CapEx and a slightly higher days of sales outstanding, offset by strong EBITDA generation.

接著看第 8 頁的現金流。我們呈現與債券範圍一致的母公司數字。第一季自由現金流為負 4.04 億美元，原因包括與原油避險相關的擔保品要求，以及 Rincon de Aranda 的密集資本支出。此外，還有與去年資本支出相關的付款，以及應收帳款天數略為增加，但強勁的 EBITDA 產生能力抵銷了部分影響。

As a result, cash and cash equivalents stood at $677 million at the quarter end, $414 million less than Q4. Finally, on the balance sheet, gross debt as of March was nearly $1.9 billion, similar to the end of 2025, but the net debt rose to $1.2 billion, representing a net leverage of 1.5x to the last 12 months EBITDA.

因此，季末現金及約當現金為 6.77 億美元，較第四季減少 4.14 億美元。最後，在資產負債表方面，截至 3 月的總負債接近 19 億美元，與 2025 年底相近，但淨負債上升至 12 億美元，淨槓桿為過去 12 個月 EBITDA 的 1.5 倍。

Well, so this concludes our presentation. Now the floor is open for questions.

好的，我們的簡報到此結束。現在開放提問。

(Operator Instructions) Guido Bizzozero from Allaria. Considering the awarded 3.2 million cubic meters of gas capacity in the Perito Moreno pipeline expected for May -- well, winter 2027, how much annual revenue and EBITDA contribution do you expect from this? Can we forecast a similar award? Well, first, how much do you expect?

(接線員指示) Allaria 的 Guido Bizzozero。考量到 Perito Moreno 管線獲配的 320 萬立方公尺天然氣運輸容量預計於 2027 年冬季（原先提到 5 月——嗯，冬季 2027）投入，您預期這將帶來多少年度營收與 EBITDA 貢獻？我們能否預期獲配到類似的量？嗯，首先，您預期是多少？

How much -- just to -- how much do we expect? It's not an easy number to provide because it will depend basically on what will be in the winter of 2027 and in future winters, what will be the prices -- the marginal cost of the system. That will be dependable on prices of LNG and prices of diesel oil. How many days during the winter, those fuels will be setting the marginal price in the system.

多少——只是——我們預期多少？這不是一個容易給出的數字，因為基本上取決於 2027 年冬季以及未來冬季的情況，也就是價格——系統的邊際成本會是多少。這將取決於 LNG 價格與柴油價格。以及在冬季期間，有多少天是由這些燃料決定系統的邊際價格。

To give you a rough idea, we think it could be in the -- but again, this is dependent upon many estimates, but could be in the range of $100 million. That is basically what we are expecting because of, as Lida explained, with this firm capacity of gas, we will be able to capture the full margin, not only the 15% margin, the 15% that the current regulation allow us to capture.

給您一個粗略概念，我們認為可能在——但再次強調，這取決於許多估計——大約在 1 億美元的區間。這基本上是我們的預期，因為如 Lida 所解釋，有了這個確定性（firm）的天然氣容量，我們將能取得完整利差，而不僅是現行法規允許我們取得的 15% 利差，也就是那 15%。

This year.

今年。

This year, yes. This 15% increases up to 35% by year 2028. No, think 2030. That is the rough estimate for power generation, and there is an additional increase in the EBITDA coming from the E&P segment because of -- I don't know if you have the figure in.

今年，是的。這 15% 到 2028 年會提高到 35%。不，我想是 2030 年。這是發電業務的粗略估計；此外，E&P 部門的 EBITDA 也會因為——我不知道你是否有那個數字——而再增加。

There, as Lida and Gustavo mentioned, additional gas being dispatched into the market, and that would represent approximately around EUR 50 million to EUR 60 million of additional EBITDA for the E&P business.

如 Lida 與 Gustavo 所提到，會有額外天然氣被調度進入市場，這將為 E&P 業務帶來約 5,000 萬至 6,000 萬歐元的額外 EBITDA。

Very conservative, yes. Conservatively. Of course, from our affiliate, TGS.

非常保守，是的。保守估計。當然，這也來自我們的關聯公司 TGS。

Yes. That's right.

是的。沒錯。

That's the 27% of that, right?

那是其中的 27%，對吧？

That's right.

沒錯。

That's the package. Yes.

那就是整個組合。是的。

On the other hand, we are prepaying for this transportation capacity. In 4 installments in the next 12 months, we will be paying to TGS, prepaying the transportation tariffs to TGS for the next 15 years, and that amounts to $330 million, $280 million-plus VAT is the exact figure.

另一方面，我們正在為這項運輸容量預付款。在接下來 12 個月分 4 期，我們將支付給 TGS，預付未來 15 年的運輸費率；金額為 3.30 億美元，精確數字是 2.80 億美元加上增值稅。

Can we forecast a similar 30% award for the second tranche of 7.2 million cubic meters per day next June?

我們是否可以預期明年6月第二批每日720萬立方公尺的配額，也能拿到類似30%的得標比例？

Gas distribution companies has a preference over A priority over power generators. Gas distribution companies decided not to participate in the first tranche of the auction that was this -- you have to prepay the tariff. That's where we were very aggressive on securing this gas transportation. In this second tranche, the gas distribution companies have a priority over us.

天然氣配氣公司相較於發電業者享有A級優先權。天然氣配氣公司決定不參與第一批拍賣，因為—你必須預先支付運輸費率。因此我們在確保這些天然氣運輸能力上採取了非常積極的策略。在第二批中，天然氣配氣公司對我們具有優先權。

It will depend on the level -- the amount of gas that they need to secure. On whatever is left from the distribution companies, then we can we may be able to secure a similar percentage as we secure in the first tranche.

這將取決於他們需要確保的天然氣量—也就是需求水準。在配氣公司拿走所需之後，剩餘的部分，我們可能就能取得與第一批相近的比例。

All right. Should we expect any results -- nothing to do with it. Any results for the expiration of the Loma De La Lata hydropower plant concession, if we have any money?

好的。我們是否應該期待任何結果—這跟它無關。關於Loma De La Lata水力發電廠特許權到期，是否會有任何結果，如果我們能拿到任何款項的話？

No, nothing.

不，沒有。

Likewise, for Rincon de Aranda.

Rincon de Aranda也是一樣嗎？

Yes.

是的。

Both concessions is like we shake hands and that's it.

兩個特許權就像是我們握個手就結束了。

Basically.

基本上是這樣。

Basically. We noticed a decrease in power generation EBITDA margin. It is explained by the sub-procurement gas and the new tariff scheme. How do you expect to evolve in the coming quarters?

基本上。我們注意到發電業務的EBITDA利潤率下降。這可由次級採購天然氣以及新的費率方案來解釋。你們預期未來幾季會如何演變？

Can you repeat the question?

你可以重複一下問題嗎？

Its EBITDA margin reduced in power generation. I know why. Let me tell you, now with the new regulation, we have more sales because we are selling gas on E&P through the electricity, right? Before we didn't, before it was a pass-through. It's like kind of like -- it was very low sales, but the EBITDA normal.

發電業務的EBITDA利潤率下降了。我知道原因。我跟你說，現在在新規範下，我們的銷售額更高，因為我們透過電力把上游（E&P）的天然氣也算進銷售了，對吧？以前不是，以前是轉嫁（pass-through）。那有點像—銷售額很低，但EBITDA是正常的。

You know what I mean? Before it wasn't like apples-to-apples, we have a bunch of things. Now it's like what it should be, like you are selling electricity with the associated fuel, the right price, no longer something like a cost-plus situation. Then, of course, the EBITDA represents that. It's not like we are losing profitability. It's just now it's more apples-to-app like-for-like.

你懂我的意思嗎？以前不是可直接對比（apples-to-apples），因為有一堆不同的項目。現在才比較像它應該呈現的樣子：你是在賣電力，並包含相關燃料，以正確的價格，不再是那種成本加成（cost-plus）的情況。因此EBITDA當然會反映這點。並不是我們的獲利能力在下降。只是現在更接近同口徑、可比的比較方式。

No. Actually, on the contract, the margins have increased.

不。其實在合約上，利潤率是提高的。

Increased, yes. That's right. The EBITDA, what it matters is that the EBITDA.

提高了，是的。沒錯。EBITDA，重要的是EBITDA。

Nominal margins are increased, but the total sales have increased significantly more because now you have to deduct the cost of fuel. Nominal numbers are better. The ratio is worse.

名目利潤率提高了，但總銷售額增加得更多，因為現在你必須扣除燃料成本。名目數字更好。比率變差。

It's more comparable to another utility in the world.

這樣就更能與全球其他公用事業公司相比。

Yes.

是的。

I hope -- if not, let me know. Could you give some color about the increase in the working capital in the quarter? We saw an increase in trade receivables of around $500 million. No. Let me tell you. The working capital, as you can see, mostly of this $343 million, like $250 million is for the oil hedge collateral requirements that you -- well, you can -- Horacio and Gustavo can tell you us better.

我希望—如果不是，請告訴我。你能否補充說明本季營運資金增加的原因？我們看到應收帳款增加約5億美元。不。我跟你說。營運資金，如你所見，這3.43億美元裡大多數—大約2.5億美元—是用於原油避險的擔保品要求；你—嗯—Horacio和Gustavo可以跟你解釋得更清楚。

Then 75% of -- $75 million of payments of last quarter's -- last year's actually CapEx. We increased the PPA last year, and then we are paying it this year. Then very little, $20 million of higher DSO, days of sales outstanding, small delays on the payments. Now it was last year's December, it closed at 6 days of delays. This quarter, it closed at 12 days. It's a 6-day deterioration, just nearly 6 days. Now it's back to 7 days of DSO. Now it's back to normal, putting in this way. You want to add something? Well, let's move on. How do you expect to evolve the free cash --

另外有7,500萬美元是支付上一季—其實是去年的資本支出（CapEx）。我們去年提高了PPA，然後今年在付款。再來只有很少部分，2,000萬美元，是DSO（應收帳款週轉天數）較高，付款有些小幅延遲。去年12月結帳時，延遲是6天。本季結帳時是12天。惡化了6天，幾乎就是6天。現在又回到7天的DSO。也就是說，現在回到正常水準。你要補充什麼嗎？好，那我們繼續。你們預期自由現金流--

I would say very normal with the increase in sales that we have to have a higher working capital.

我會說很正常，因為銷售增加，我們需要更高的營運資金。

That is correct. How do you expect to evolve the free cash flow in the following 12 months, considering the installments to be paid to TGS, the CapEx plan for Rincon de Aranda and any other divestments for projects like CESA and Urea in the future?

沒錯。考量未來12個月需支付給TGS的分期款、Rincon de Aranda的資本支出計畫，以及未來像CESA與尿素等專案可能的其他資產處分，你們預期自由現金流會如何演變？

Vito, do you want to answer that?

Vito，你要回答嗎？

Sure. Good morning, everyone. As you can perfectly see, we are undergoing record investments. This was reflected in our net leverage that increased to 1.5 as we expected. Going forward, EBITDA is growing as well. In fact, this is our record quarter. We are very thrilled that our investments are paying back. The base case is if we continue with our base plan or base scenario is that EBITDA keeps growing, so the company will naturally deleverage. In fact, if we don't pursue new projects, net leverage will go to zero in two or three years.

當然。各位早安。如各位清楚看到的，我們正在進行創紀錄的投資。這也反映在我們的淨槓桿上，如我們預期，已上升到1.5。展望未來，EBITDA也在成長。事實上，這是我們創紀錄的一季。我們非常振奮，因為投資正在回收成果。基本情境是：如果我們持續依照基本計畫或基本情境推進，EBITDA會持續成長，因此公司將自然去槓桿。事實上，如果我們不推進新專案，淨槓桿在兩到三年內會降到零。

That being said, we will probably need to increase gross debt to finance this high CapEx and for example, the TGS expansion. The growth of debt will go in line with the growth of EBITDA. We expect net leverage to keep around 1.5 this year and gradually go down as Rincon de Aranda starts to ramp up and all the investments start to profit to deleverage again. Going forward, and that is why that going forward, we're going to have no leverage. We are pursuing or we are starting new investments and new alternatives to apply our future free cash flows.

話雖如此，我們可能需要提高總負債來支應這些高額資本支出，例如TGS擴建。債務的成長將與EBITDA的成長同步。我們預期今年淨槓桿將維持在約1.5，並隨著Rincon de Aranda開始放量、所有投資開始貢獻獲利而逐步下降，再次去槓桿。往後，也正因如此，往後我們將不會有槓桿。我們正在推進或開始新的投資與新的替代方案，以運用我們未來的自由現金流。

Next, (inaudible) from Allaria. Could you give us some color about the urea project future deployment of CapEx and expected sales and EBITDA contribution beyond the year 2030?

下一位，（聽不清）來自Allaria。你能否補充說明尿素專案在2030年之後的資本支出部署、以及預期銷售與EBITDA貢獻？

Let me say this about the urea project. As you know, we have been working for a while, and we continue working on several fronts. That includes engineering of the plant, negotiating the EPC with potential suppliers, environmental permits, the project finance. All of this takes a lot of time.

我來談談尿素專案。如各位所知，我們已經推動一段時間，並且持續在多個面向同步進行。包括工廠工程設計、與潛在供應商洽談EPC、環境許可，以及專案融資。這些都需要很多時間。

The reason why the project had a lot of publicity lately was we engaged IDB and IFC for project finance. They needed -- they published the environmental permits in their websites, and that gave publicity to -- but they need to -- this is part of the process. They need to have this public for at least 6 months before being able to move forward. That's why it was published a couple -- I think like a month ago.

之所以這個專案最近受到很多關注，是因為我們聘請了IDB與IFC來做專案融資。他們需要—他們在其網站上公布了環境許可，因而帶來了曝光—但他們需要—這是流程的一部分。他們必須將其公開至少6個月，之後才能往前推進。所以才會在幾—我想大概一個月前公布。

All in all, the decision is not -- has not been taken yet. This will be such an important move for Pampa that obviously, the moment that we decide to move forward, we will do an IR Day to fully explain why we are moving forward with this project. To give you some color why an urea project, I think we already went through in previous call about this.

總而言之，這項決定尚未——也還沒有做出。這對 Pampa 來說將是一項非常重要的舉措，因此很明顯地，一旦我們決定推進，我們會舉辦一場 IR Day，完整說明為何要推進這個專案。至於為什麼是尿素專案，我想我們在先前的電話會議中已經談過一些。

Probably Argentina is one of the few gas producing countries in the world that imports urea. 65% of the cost of producing urea is natural gas, another 10% or 15% is electricity, 2 products were Argentina and Pampa, it's very competitive. Developing urea is a way to monetize our very competitive gas reserves.

阿根廷可能是全球少數產氣國中仍進口尿素的國家之一。尿素生產成本中，65% 是天然氣，另外 10% 或 15% 是電力；以阿根廷與 Pampa 來說，競爭力非常強。發展尿素是一種將我們極具競爭力的天然氣儲量變現的方式。

The other rationale is that not only Argentina is importing from the Middle East and from Russia and from the whole South America. South America has a deficit of 10 million tons of urea per year that we are importing. The plant that we are envisioning is 2 million tons per year of urea.

另一個理由是，阿根廷不僅從中東、俄羅斯以及整個南美進口。南美每年有 1,000 萬噸尿素的缺口需要進口。我們所構想的工廠產能是每年 200 萬噸尿素。

In terms of sales at normal historical prices, that would be sales for around $1 billion today because of the disruption in the Middle East, at current prices of urea would be almost twice that much. Again, it's a project that makes a lot of sense for Pampa that we are working on several fronts, and we hope to take the final investment decision by the end of the third quarter or at some point in the fourth quarter of this year. Once we do that, you will be fully informed about all the details.

以正常的歷史價格來看，銷售額大約會是 10 億美元；但由於中東的擾動，以目前尿素價格計算，幾乎會是其兩倍。再次強調，這是一個對 Pampa 很有意義的專案，我們正從多個面向推進，並希望在今年第三季末或第四季某個時間點做出最終投資決策。一旦做出決策，你們將會完整獲得所有細節資訊。

As we always do. Could you give us some color about the RIGI application for the northern area of Rincon de Aranda? What means this $4.5 billion investment about the already $1.5 billion plan for the area. Could you clarify that? How do you expect this may accelerate and sustain the plateau in the future?

一如我們一貫的做法。你能否就 Rincon de Aranda 北部區域的 RIGI 申請提供一些補充說明？這筆 45 億美元投資相對於該區域既有的 15 億美元計畫，代表什麼意義？能否釐清一下？你們預期這將如何在未來加速並維持產量平台期？

Okay. The full field development for Rincon de Aranda, it's in the range of $4.5 billion. That takes into account both the drilling and completion of our wells and all of the midstream infrastructure. needed through the life of the project. Basically, that investment will develop both the south of Rincon de Aranda, which is so far the most productive rock we've seen in the area and also the northern block of Rincon de Aranda, which will enable the production plateau to be sustained for approximately 6 to 8 more years.

好的。Rincon de Aranda 的全油田開發規模大約在 45 億美元。這包含我們油井的鑽井與完井，以及專案全生命週期所需的所有中游基礎設施。基本上，這筆投資將同時開發 Rincon de Aranda 南部（迄今為止我們在該區看到最具生產力的地層）以及 Rincon de Aranda 的北部區塊，後者將使產量平台期可再維持約 6 到 8 年。

Then the next question from Santiago is regarding Transener. Can you give us a dimension of what is power transmission grid expansion represents for the country? For Transener, if it was awarded regarding CapEx revenues or EBITDA, do you expect a significant change in prices versus the current framework scheme? If you feel like with the current framework scheme, the wholesale prices of power will increase a lot or not?

接下來 Santiago 的問題是關於 Transener。你能否說明一下，電力輸電電網擴建對國家而言代表多大的規模？對 Transener 而言，若其得標，在資本支出收入或 EBITDA 方面，你預期相較於目前的框架機制，價格會有顯著變化嗎？你是否認為在現行框架機制下，電力批發價格會大幅上升或不會？

Regarding grid expansion, high-voltage grid expansions, I don't think there's anything new other than some press nothing has been published lately by the Secretary of Energy, as I believe. We are expecting the government to do an auction for new power lines basically to strengthen the supply of energy to the Amba area to the Buenos Aires metropolitan area. That will be the first auction to be launched.

關於電網擴建、高壓電網擴建，我認為除了媒體報導之外沒有新的資訊；據我所知，能源部秘書處近期也沒有發布任何內容。我們預期政府將就新輸電線路進行招標，主要是為了強化對 AMBA 地區、也就是布宜諾斯艾利斯都會區的能源供應。那將是第一個啟動的招標案。

Transener could participate as any other. The difference for Transener is even if not awarded the construction of the line, Transener regulatory-wise has the supervision of -- so it collects 3% of the total cost of the new line constructed. Obviously, Transener has very good competitive advantage to be awarded the operation and maintenance. Again, we are still awaiting and nothing has been decided yet by the Secretary of Energy on power transmission.

Transener 可以像其他公司一樣參與。對 Transener 來說的差異在於，即使沒有得標線路建設，從監管角度 Transener 仍負責監督——因此可收取新建線路總成本的 3%。當然，Transener 在取得營運與維護標案方面具有非常好的競爭優勢。再次強調，我們仍在等待，能源部秘書處對輸電尚未做出任何決定。

Until then, we are still curtailed in the power generation, right? There is not much we can do.

在那之前，我們的發電仍然會受到限電（curtailment）影響，對吧？我們能做的不多。

A few hours or days in a year that there are some restrictions.

一年當中只有幾個小時或幾天會有一些限制。

There's the next question coming from Alejandro Demichelis from Jefferies. We're growing CapEx at both Pampa and the subsidiaries, could you please indicate how do you see financing for the projects and for the group and the level of leverage do you see Pampa getting into the next two, three years?

下一個問題來自 Jefferies 的 Alejandro Demichelis。我們在 Pampa 以及子公司都在增加資本支出（CapEx），能否請你說明你們如何看待專案與集團的融資，以及你們預期 Pampa 在未來兩到三年的槓桿水準會到什麼程度？

Well, it's going back to the question I answered before. In two, three years, if we don't pursue any other new projects like urea plant, we will have no debt, okay? In the meantime, when we grow, we have opened all the pockets for financing. Our bonds are trading greatly in the international market, so we can tap that market if needed. Also, we have the local market that recently we issued $200 million at 5.49%, which is a very competitive rate.

嗯，這回到我先前回答的問題。兩到三年後，如果我們不推進任何其他新專案（例如尿素廠），我們將不會有負債，好嗎？同時，在我們成長的過程中，我們已打開所有融資管道。我們的債券在國際市場交易表現很好，因此如有需要我們可以進入該市場籌資。此外，我們也有本地市場；近期我們以 5.49% 發行了 2 億美元，這是非常具競爭力的利率。

As I explained before, we probably will increase our gross debt. However, in terms of leverage, we will keep deleverage because our EBITDA is growing fastly. As you can see, this is our record quarter. You will see us issuing more debt, but keeping leverage levels in this area of around 1.5 and going down to 0 in the coming years.

如我先前所說，我們可能會提高總負債。然而，就槓桿而言，我們會持續去槓桿，因為我們的 EBITDA 正在快速成長。如你所見，這是我們的創紀錄季度。你們會看到我們發行更多債務，但槓桿水準會維持在大約 1.5 左右，並在未來幾年降至 0。

That being said, if we pursue a new project like the we have plant, this might change, but as Gustavo explained, this is very early still to give any guidance. We have to define the financial structure of the project and see how that will impact in the short-term leverage naturally will impact, but we have to have more clarity on the numbers to give any guidance. It's early to say.

話雖如此，如果我們推進像尿素廠這樣的新專案，情況可能會改變；但如 Gustavo 所說，現在仍非常早，還無法提供任何指引。我們必須先定義該專案的財務結構，並評估其對短期槓桿的影響——自然會有影響——但我們需要對數字有更清楚的掌握才能提供指引。現在說還太早。

Next question comes from Matias Cattaruzzi from ADC. He's asking, well, other questions are already answered. Net debt leverage ratio, answer. The first question, though, is Medanito rent spread tighten material with the premium now or. Passes Hormuz. Is there room to capture this improved spread in the remaining quarters? Or does the hedge effectively cap realization for the full year?

下一個問題來自 ADC 的 Matias Cattaruzzi。他在問，嗯，其他問題已經回答了。淨負債槓桿比率，已回答。不過第一個問題是，Medanito 租金價差是否因目前的溢價而明顯收斂，或是——霍爾木茲海峽。在接下來幾個季度，是否還有空間可以掌握這個改善後的價差？還是避險會有效地把全年實現價格封頂？

The hedges is related to the market to Brent. Any premium on top of Brent will be captured by Pampa.

避險是與 Brent 市場掛鉤的。任何高於 Brent 的溢價都會由 Pampa 取得。

Next question comes from Gustavo Faria from Bank of America. He asks, power sector new framework, how are the discussions with the clients, I guess, in the math, right, or in the B2B market to fulfill the energy generation capacity available for PPAs, B2B PPAs. Are you being able to fulfill all the capacity available? Or is there any some spare capacity?

下一個問題來自美國銀行的 Gustavo Faria。他問的是電力產業的新框架：你們與客戶的討論進展如何？我想是在 MAT（市場）或 B2B 市場，以履行可用的發電容量來簽訂 PPA、B2B PPA。你們是否能夠把所有可用容量都賣出去？還是仍有一些剩餘容量？

Yes. The new regulations separated the market into energy and capacity. For energy, for legacy capacity, generators are allowed to sell up to 20% of the expected energy production on B2Bs. We have already completed that very fast, very efficient, thanks to the strong commercial team that we have and something that we have always been used to because of our participation in the former Energia Plus market and the matter market. We have always been very active.

是的。新法規將市場分為電能（energy）與容量（capacity）。就電能而言，針對既有容量，發電商被允許在 B2B 市場銷售最多相當於預期發電量 20% 的電能。我們已經非常快速且有效率地完成了這部分，這要歸功於我們強大的商務團隊；而且我們一直很熟悉這類操作，因為我們過去參與過 Energia Plus 市場以及現貨市場（spot market）。我們一直都非常積極。

We have a huge several hundred clients that we provide energy. I think we were the first one in Argentina to complete the sale of the 20% of energy available to sell. Regarding capacity, we can sell all our capacity. I think we've sold around 30% or 30-something percent of our total capacity. That will take more time to be completed. Once we sell the capacity, it provides us an additional market to -- an additional margin to the price that we sell capacity to CAMMESA. That will take time because it's a larger number.

我們有數百家大型客戶，我們向他們供應能源。我認為我們是阿根廷第一家完成可出售能源 20% 銷售的公司。就容量而言，我們可以出售我們全部的容量。我想我們已經售出了約 30% 或 30% 多一點的總容量。其餘部分完成還需要更多時間。一旦我們把容量賣出去，就能在我們向 CAMMESA 出售容量的價格之上，為我們帶來額外的市場——也就是額外的利潤空間。這會需要時間，因為數量更大。

That was expected.

這是預期之內的。

Yes.

是。

Next question from Gustavo Faria, which it partially answers about the fertilizers plant, but it's associated with you, Horacio, which he asks how much CapEx comes from the higher gas production at the gas fields associated from the fertilizers project?

下一個問題來自 Gustavo Faria，部分已在肥料廠的問題中得到回答，但這個問題與你有關，Horacio：他問與肥料專案相關的氣田提高天然氣產量，會帶來多少資本支出（CapEx）？

How much will be the additional CapEx? The urea project will come in line in 2030. That will be after the planned gas ends. Therefore, we still need to understand what's going to be our mix of sales by 2030. Eventually, it will -- and that's why I'm mentioning because the amount of CapEx needed will depend on how much additional demand Pampa would like to engage to service.

額外的資本支出會是多少？尿素專案將在 2030 年投產。那會是在既定的天然氣計畫結束之後。因此，我們仍需要了解到 2030 年我們的銷售組合會是什麼。最終——我之所以提到這點，是因為所需的 CapEx 金額將取決於 Pampa 希望投入服務的新增需求有多少。

If we decide eventually to reduce our sales to the, let's say, residential market and keep that gas to feed our urea project, then the CapEx is completely different as -- on the other hand, we decide to supply the urea on top of all of our additional demand.

如果我們最終決定降低對——比如說——住宅市場的銷售，並把那部分天然氣保留下來供應我們的尿素專案，那麼 CapEx 就會完全不同；相反地，如果我們決定在滿足所有新增需求之上再供應尿素，那又是另一種情況。

The next question is for you, Gustavo. What will be the commercialization strategy for the fertilizers? In 2030?

下一個問題是給你的，Gustavo。肥料的商業化策略會是什麼？在 2030 年？

Okay. Argentina currently consumes about less than 2.5 million tons per year of urea and approximately half of that is locally produced by Profertil. The first option will be local prices, local demand, but given the restraints on the project finance that require us to sell -- to export a higher percentage in the first few years, probably we'll be exporting to the neighboring countries. All our neighbors consume urea from Middle East, Russia and exactly the opposite side of the world. Again, too soon to tell what will be our commercial strategy, but it will be domestic and export sales.

好的。阿根廷目前每年尿素消費量不到 250 萬噸，其中約一半由 Profertil 在本地生產。第一個選項會是本地價格、本地需求；但鑑於專案融資的限制，要求我們在最初幾年必須銷售——也就是出口——較高比例，因此我們很可能會出口到鄰國。我們所有鄰國的尿素都從中東、俄羅斯以及世界的另一端進口。同樣地，現在談我們的商業策略還太早，但會同時包含國內銷售與出口銷售。

The people from Latin Securities, Alejandro Christensen and George Gasztowtt ask, how is the treatment plan Rincon de Aranda progressing? In which quarter do you expect it will COD?

來自 Latin Securities 的 Alejandro Christensen 和 George Gasztowtt 問：Rincon de Aranda 的處理廠進展如何？你們預期會在哪一季達到商轉（COD）？

Okay. It's progressing with no problems at all. Some minor delays on the desalinization modules that were scheduled to come from the OEI. To answer your question, the plant will be commissioned by the month of March 2027.

好的。進展非常順利，完全沒有問題。海水淡化模組有一些小幅延遲，原本預計由 OEI 交付。回答你的問題，該廠將在 2027 年 3 月完成試車投運。

Have you hedged any production beyond first quarter '27 so far this year? Or do you plan to?

今年到目前為止，你們是否已對 2027 年第一季之後的任何產量做了避險？或者你們有計畫要做嗎？

Basically, we have one year forward. Yes, we probably we will continue with the hedging strategy moving forward, probably not so aggressively as we've done this year. During the ramp-up, we wanted to ensure the stability of the results. That's why we decided to hedge 100% of our production. Going forward, and as production continues to grow, we will be reducing the percentage of the quantity hedge to probably around 50%.

基本上，我們做的是一年期的遠期。是的，我們可能會在未來持續採取避險策略，但可能不會像今年做得那麼積極。在產量爬坡期間，我們希望確保業績的穩定性。因此我們決定對 100% 的產量進行避險。往後，隨著產量持續成長，我們會把避險數量的比例降低到大約 50%。

Next question in the gas supply for the intersegment procurement structure, is it structured as a fixed price contract? He's asking how much power generation is buying the gas from E&P?

下一個問題：在跨事業部採購架構下的天然氣供應，是以固定價格合約來設計的嗎？他在問發電事業部向 E&P（勘探與生產）購買了多少天然氣？

How much -- what amount of gas?

多少——是什麼數量的天然氣？

No, prices.

不，是價格。

Prices are regulated by CAMMESA. There is a maximum price, which is linked to the, let's say, LNG FOB Argentina, it's 55% of that. That's the price at which we sell, quote our gas to our own power plants.

價格由 CAMMESA 監管。有一個最高價格上限，與——比如說——阿根廷 LNG FOB 價格掛鉤，為其 55%。我們就是以這個價格把天然氣報價並出售給我們自有的電廠。

Yes. During the summer, it's just like the plan gas.

是的。在夏季，它就像 Plan Gas 一樣。

The summer is the plan gas.

夏季就是 Plan Gas。

Iner segment-wise, it will be like very similar to what is planned gas, right?

就跨事業部而言，它會非常類似於 Plan Gas，對吧？

No, no, no. It's significantly higher. The plan gas has a price for the summer and another price for the winter is approximately, let's say, 2-point-something and 5. Today, with the markers that we are looking at for the month of May, we are looking at prices that are around $10 per million BTU for the generation segment.

不，不，不。它明顯更高。Plan Gas 在夏季有一個價格、冬季有另一個價格，大約是——比如說——2 點多和 5。以我們目前看到的 5 月指標來看，發電事業部的價格大約是每百萬 BTU 10 美元左右。

That we are capturing.

那是我們正在掌握的。

Almost twice the plan.

幾乎是 Plan 的兩倍。

We are capturing all of it.

我們把全部都掌握住了。

We're capturing right now.

我們現在正在掌握。

It's just to allocate.

只是做分配而已。

Who gets that?

那誰拿到這個？

Revenues or margin between the power segment and the E&P segment is not that.

發電事業部與 E&P 事業部之間的收入或利潤差額不是那樣算的。

Then he says, should we expect the variable cost component known as CVP recognized by CAMMESA to remain broadly stable over time, given this structure? Actually, the CVP is not stable because as what Horacio was saying, the seasonal winter CVP shoots up because of the cost of gas, right?

接著他說：在這種架構下，是否應預期 CAMMESA 認列的、稱為 CVP 的變動成本組成，隨時間大致保持穩定？其實 CVP 並不穩定，因為如 Horacio 所說，冬季的季節性 CVP 會因為天然氣成本而大幅上升，對吧？

I would say that it's the first time in many years that Argentina is showing the correct price signal in the gas market. This means that the price significantly escalates during the winter and is very, very cheap during the summer. If this continues, this should be reflected in the gas market.

我會說，這是阿根廷多年來第一次在天然氣市場呈現正確的價格訊號。這表示冬季價格會顯著上升，而夏季則非常、非常便宜。如果這種情況持續下去，就應該會反映在天然氣市場上。

Is there a positive spread between the CVP you declare to CAMMESA and what your intercompany gas procurement costs? Actually, no. In order to be competitive, no. He said can we have like a spread against what we declare before CAMMESA. In CAMMESA, what the real CVP is actually.

你們向 CAMMESA 申報的 CVP 與你們公司內部採購天然氣的成本之間，是否存在正向價差？其實沒有。為了具備競爭力，沒有。他問我們能否相對於向 CAMMESA 申報的數字有一個價差。在 CAMMESA，那個真正的 CVP 其實是什麼。

It's part of our commercial strategy, the declaration of the CVP. That's something that we do every 2 weeks. That's part of the commercial strategy, declaring your CVP, not necessarily the real CVP -- there is a margin included in the CVP that you declared to CAMMESA, yes.

這是我們商業策略的一部分，也就是 CVP 的申報。我們每兩週做一次。這是商業策略的一部分：申報你的 CVP，不一定是實際 CVP——你向 CAMMESA 申報的 CVP 中確實包含一個利潤空間，是的。

Yes, it's the 25%.

是的，是 25%。

Well it depends, every week is different.

嗯，這取決於情況，每週都不一樣。

Different. Yes. CAMMESA does calculate theoretical CVPs. You cannot go very different from what you declare. What you declare, you can go very different from what theoretically CAMMESA calculates for you. You cannot say $1.

不一樣。是的。CAMMESA 會計算理論 CVP。你不能和你申報的差太多。你申報的數字不能和 CAMMESA 理論上替你計算的數字差太多。你不能說 1 美元。

If you declare expensive, you are not dispatch it. If you declare the cost, sorry, I don't understand this. I think we answered that. Let's move.

如果你申報得很貴，就不會被調度。如果你申報成本，抱歉，我不太理解這個。我想我們已經回答了。我們繼續。

How should we think about the release timing from collateral post against the oil hedges? Has Pampa had to post any additional margins since March 31?

我們應該如何看待因原油避險而提供的擔保品（collateral）釋放時點？自 3 月 31 日以來，Pampa 是否需要追加任何保證金？

I think not today because -- but eventually, at one point during this time, we had to post higher collateral, then we -- as prices came down, we recovered. I think today, we are more or less at the same level.

我想今天不是，因為——但最終，在這段期間的某個時點，我們必須追加更高的擔保品，然後——隨著價格下跌，我們又收回來了。我想今天我們或多或少回到同樣的水準。

[Lisa Williams] from Morgan Stanley, she asks one of the easy one. Could you give me some color from the gas export perspective in the coming quarters, Horacio? There's any sales to Brazil? How is Chile evolving?

[Lisa Williams]（摩根士丹利）她問了一個比較簡單的問題。Horacio，你能從未來幾季的天然氣出口角度提供一些補充說明嗎？有賣到巴西嗎？智利的情況如何演變？

Okay. Our exports are basically to Chile, all of them, both through the Gas Andes pipeline and the Gas Pacifico pipeline. We are hitting 1.5 million of exports, and it's been pretty stable, and that's what we foresee for the rest of the year.

好的。我們的出口基本上都是到智利，全部都是，分別透過 Gas Andes 管線以及 Gas Pacifico 管線。我們目前出口量達到 150 萬，且一直相當穩定，這也是我們對今年剩餘時間的預期。

Well, this is a very -- like I think we didn't answer this. Do you expect RGII for Rincon de Aranda to be approved in the next few weeks?

嗯，這是一個非常——我想我們沒有回答這個。你們預期 Rincon de Aranda 的 RGII 會在接下來幾週內獲得核准嗎？

I don't think so. If you take a look at -- Initially, RIGI were approved in two, three months, the first few RIGIs that were approved. Then for other RIGIs, it took six to seven months. Although we are pushing and trying to get the approval as fast as possible, I think it will take a few more months.

我不這麼認為。如果你回頭看——一開始，最早核准的幾個 RIGI 大概兩、三個月就核准了。但其他一些 RIGI 則花了六到七個月。雖然我們正在推動並試圖盡快取得核准，但我認為還需要再多幾個月。

Once approved?

一旦核准之後呢？

No. Just one clarification on what Gustavo said is that even if we get approved, let's say, 2 months from now, the benefits will apply for the pads number 14 and number 15 that have already been drilled and completed after the date of our presentation of the submittal of the request for RIGI.

不是。我只是針對 Gustavo 說的補充澄清：即使我們在例如兩個月後獲得核准，優惠也會適用於第 14 號與第 15 號井場（pads），因為它們是在我們提交 RIGI 申請（遞交請求）之日之後已經鑽完並完井的。

Once approved, what's the next steps from there? Nothing. It's just working, right?

核准後，接下來的步驟是什麼？沒有。就是照常運作，對吧？

Enjoy.

享受。

Enjoy it. Well, no. [Francisco Caparo from Don Cap], he's asking my question will be regarding the OCI or other comprehensive income results in the pesos balance sheet. We have also dollar balance sheet as well. Can you explain the loss approximately of -- I don't know how much 300 billion, but there's in dollars. Is it related to the losses not perceived for the production hedge for the rest of the year?

享受它。嗯，不是。[Francisco Caparo（Don Cap）]，他問的問題是關於以披索呈列的資產負債表中 OCI（其他綜合損益）或其他綜合收益的結果。我們也有以美元呈列的資產負債表。你能解釋一下大約——我不知道是 3,000 億還是多少，但以美元計——的損失嗎？這是否與今年剩餘期間生產避險未實現的損失有關？

Yes, it's reflected in the.

是的，這反映在——

Other comprehensive income.

其他綜合損益。

Exactly. That will be offset with future physical sales of oil at higher prices. That's why it is an unrealized Yes, but it's not reflecting in the P&L. It's reflecting the -- and it will compensate with future higher sales of the physical oil.

沒錯。這將會被未來以較高價格進行的實體原油銷售所抵銷。這就是為什麼它是未實現的——是的，但它不會反映在損益表（P&L）中。它反映在——並且會透過未來實體原油較高的銷售來補償。

Also, can you give us an explanation of the $184 million jump in financial derivatives instruments on current liabilities, is exactly that, right? It's a mark-to-market. All right.

另外，你能說明一下流動負債中金融衍生工具增加 1.84 億美元的原因嗎？就是那個，對吧？是按市價評價（mark-to-market）。好的。

What price is Pampa hedged for the year going forward?

Pampa 今年往後的避險價格是多少？

The average price until April next year is $65 million. Of course, this is the Brent marker.

到明年四月為止的平均價格是 6,500 萬美元。當然，這是以布蘭特（Brent）作為指標。

Agustin Pacheco from Banco Mariva. Power gen CapEx, just $2 million in Q1 versus $35 million quarterly D&A. Is this a 1Q timing effect? Or should we recalibrate our maintenance CapEx assumption lower going forward? What normalized annual level do you consider appropriate for the current asset base?

Banco Mariva 的 Agustin Pacheco。發電業務資本支出（CapEx），第一季只有 200 萬美元，相較之下季度折舊與攤銷（D&A）為 3,500 萬美元。這是第一季時點因素嗎？還是我們應該把未來的維護性 CapEx 假設下修？以目前資產基礎而言，你認為合理的常態化年度水準是多少？

I think it's in the range of $70 million, $70 million, $80 million average annually per year. There are some years that it's significantly higher and some years that is lower. That depends on the major maintenance that the turbines need to go through every -- several years. Average around $80 million. That's why it's just a coincidence that this Q was so low, but this year, it should be in the average range.

我認為大概在每年 7,000 萬到 8,000 萬美元的區間，年均約 7,000 萬、7,000 萬到 8,000 萬美元。有些年份會顯著更高，有些年份會更低。這取決於渦輪機每隔——數年需要進行一次的大型維修保養。平均大約 8,000 萬美元。所以這一季特別低只是巧合，但今年應該會落在平均區間。

$70 million budget. The quarterly D&A or the D&A actually is because we are a functional currency in dollars. We are increasing PPE, and we are doing the D&A. That's why -- and we have increases in the past few years. It's a normal amount.

預算是 7,000 萬美元。至於季度 D&A 或實際的 D&A，是因為我們的功能性貨幣是美元。我們的固定資產（PPE）在增加，因此會計提折舊與攤銷。所以——而且過去幾年我們也有增加。這是正常的金額。

Probably the $35 million that he mentioned in previous year, it's not only maintenance, but it's probably the end of the PPI, the wind farm, I think it was in the first quarter of this year, payments related to the last wind farm that we built.

他提到的前一年 3,500 萬美元，可能不只是維護性支出，可能還包含 PPI 的尾款、風電場——我想是在今年第一季——與我們最後一座已建成風電場相關的付款。

Alvaro Leva from BTG. He's asking what are the expected losses from the hedging strategy in 2026 and 2027.

BTG 的 Alvaro Leva。他問的是 2026 年與 2027 年避險策略預期會產生多少損失。

Again, we don't consider that losses. The goal when we decided the hedging policy was to ensure stability of results, especially during the ramp-up and the first phase of the development of Rincon de Aranda at the level that we hedge, we secure a very good profitability and IRR for the project.

再說一次，我們不把那視為損失。當我們決定避險政策時，目標是確保業績的穩定性，特別是在 Rincon de Aranda 開發的爬坡期與第一階段；以我們避險的水準來看，我們為該專案鎖定了非常好的獲利能力與內部報酬率（IRR）。

Obviously, now that prices are higher, it's something that -- we knew it could happen, it could go the other way as it did last year, and we profit from this strategy. Again, the strategy is to provide stability to the results. That was the goal. Let's see.

顯然，現在價格更高，這是——我們知道有可能發生；也可能像去年那樣往另一個方向走，而我們就會從這個策略中獲利。再說一次，這個策略是為了讓結果更穩定。這就是目標。我們再看看。

It's 12:00. We have like 3 pages of questions, like a lot of questions.

現在是 12:00。我們大概還有 3 頁的問題，很多問題。

Different questions. different subjects.

不同的問題、不同的主題。

Yes. Can you imagine? Daniel Guardiola from BTG. He's asking main benefits on the deregulation, we already covered that, but he's asking when the first PPAs with CAMMESA are expiring and what is expected the impact in EBITDA? The first PPAs, the first one is expiring in July this year. It's a very small one, 75 megawatts.

是的。你能想像嗎？BTG 的 Daniel Guardiola。他問的是解除管制的主要好處，我們已經談過了，但他還問第一批與 CAMMESA 的 PPA 何時到期，以及對 EBITDA 的預期影響是什麼？第一批 PPA 中，第一個會在今年七月到期。那是一個很小的合約，75 兆瓦。

Next year, it's another 300 megawatts. Then until 2035, we have the 400 megawatts of CCGT in Geneva. I will say, roughly speaking, the most important amount is next year's 300 megawatts. In total, they represent roughly 400 megawatts together, they roughly represent $100 million EBITDA today.

明年還有另一個 300 兆瓦。然後一直到 2035 年，我們在 Geneva 的 400 兆瓦複循環燃氣機組（CCGT）。我會說，大致上最重要的是明年的 300 兆瓦。合計來看，它們加起來大約代表 400 兆瓦，按今天的水準大約代表 1 億美元的 EBITDA。

With the deregulation and the fact that the east side of the country will get more gas transportation, and we don't know what's going to happen in a long time and depends on the international prices and so on. The impact because of the deregulation is smoother than before. It's like it's lower EBITDA, of course, but it's not like a sharp drop like we used to preview before with the regulated peso spot market. Urea business, what's the IRR lever in dollars?

隨著解除管制，以及國家東部將獲得更多天然氣運輸能力，而我們也不知道長期會發生什麼，且取決於國際價格等等。解除管制帶來的影響比以前更平滑。當然 EBITDA 會較低，但不像我們以前在受管制的披索現貨市場下所預期的那種陡降。尿素業務方面，以美元計的 IRR 驅動因素是什麼？

I think we already covered urea.

我想我們已經談過尿素了。

Yes. If shares continue trading at these multiples, why not prioritize aggressive share buybacks instead of pursuing even organic growth? What inorganic?

是的。如果股價持續以這些倍數交易，為什麼不優先進行更積極的庫藏股回購，而不是追求甚至是有機成長？那無機成長呢？

Urea, I think is mentioned.

我想有提到尿素。

That's organic.

那是有機的。

Organic?

有機？

Okay. You are doing it by yourself, so it's organic. M&A is inorganic. We have a lot of things to do.

好的。你是自己做，所以是有機成長。併購（M&A）是非有機成長。我們有很多事情要做。

Yes. It's a question that has many answers. I think we've been very aggressive when there was an opportunity to be very aggressive. In the future, if there is another opportunity to be very aggressive, we will be very aggressive again. On the contrary, exactly, one point to take into account is liquidity of the stock.

是的。這個問題有很多種答案。我認為在有機會可以非常積極的時候，我們一直都非常積極。未來如果再有一次可以非常積極的機會，我們也會再次非常積極。相反地，確實，有一點需要考量的是股票的流動性。

Definitely, the buyback that we did had an impact on the liquidity of the stock. There are several issues to take into account. Obviously, the attractiveness of the investments that we are doing, we think are competing extremely well with the possibility with the buyback of shares.

毫無疑問，我們做的庫藏股回購對股票流動性造成了影響。有幾個議題需要納入考量。顯然，我們正在做的投資之吸引力，我們認為與回購股票的可能性相比，競爭力非常強。

All right. Gamze Alpar from Impera Capital from Turkey. She's asking what's the well inventory of Rincon de Aranda, including the north? Can the production go over 45,000 barrels per day?

好的。來自土耳其 Impera Capital 的 Gamze Alpar。她在問 Rincon de Aranda（包含北部）的井位庫存是多少？產量能否超過每日 45,000 桶？

Okay. The total inventory, it's more than 300 wells, out of which 2/3 is in the South, 1/3 is in the north. Obviously, the production can go up to more than 45,000 per day, but that's what we consider a reasonable plateau because that's what we dimension our CPF for. How many years? She asked? How many years of production?

好的。總井位庫存超過 300 口井，其中 2/3 在南部、1/3 在北部。顯然，產量可以提高到超過每日 45,000 桶，但我們認為那是一個合理的平台期，因為我們的 CPF（中央處理設施）就是按這個規模來配置的。多少年？她問的是？平台期可以維持多少年的產量？

No, no. As she says, if he stays at 45,000, how many years can you keep up the plateau? Taking account the number.

不，不。她的意思是，如果維持在 45,000 的話，你們可以維持平台期多少年？要把井數考量進去。

Okay. So taking into account the size of our processing facility, we expect approximately 15 years of production at 45,000.

好的。因此，考量我們處理設施的規模，我們預期在每日 45,000 桶的水準下，大約可生產 15 年。

Daniel has more questions. He's asking, what's the expected EBITDA and free cash flow generation for 2026? Let me give you a disclaimer here. We don't give guidance. This is Argentina, but we can share with you what our forecast of the budget it is, right? What's the expected EBITDA and free cash flow generation for 2026. Actually, no generation outflow for 2026, right?

Daniel 還有更多問題。他在問 2026 年預期的 EBITDA 與自由現金流產生是多少？我先做個聲明。我們不提供財測指引。這裡是阿根廷，但我們可以和你分享我們的預算預測，是吧？2026 年預期的 EBITDA 與自由現金流產生是多少。其實 2026 年是沒有產生、是淨流出，對吧？

We don't give guidance, but we can share with you the budget, which is the EBITDA for the parent company, it's around $1 billion, composed by $600 million from E&P and $400 million something from power generation. Be aware that this is not including the JV with Barragan, a little bit over $1 billion, of course.

我們不提供指引，但可以和你分享預算：母公司 EBITDA 約 10 億美元，其中約 6 億美元來自上游（E&P），約 4 億多美元來自發電。請注意，這不包含與 Barragan 的合資企業（JV），若包含則會略高於 10 億美元，當然。

Then corporate and petrochemicals are negative. That's why it's rounding it $1 billion. In the consolidated level, it's including the TGS and Transener's equity share, it's around $1.3 billion. Then in the free cash flow, this is including the prepayments of TGS, SESA, San Matias and Bemos, it's around an outflow of around $400 million free cash flow outflow.

另外，公司本部與石化是負貢獻。所以加總約為 10 億美元。在合併層級，包含 TGS 與 Transener 的權益法認列，約為 13 億美元。至於自由現金流，這包含 TGS、SESA、San Matias 與 Bemos 的預付款，約為 4 億美元的自由現金流淨流出。

Have you considered to grow inorganically in the oil window of Vaca Muerta? This question he always asked -- but he asks good. How is an inorganic Vaca Muerta oil project ranking in terms of risk-adjusted IRRs against the urea project or the San Matias pipeline? That's a good question, though.

你們是否考慮在 Vaca Muerta 的油區以非有機方式擴張？這個問題他總是問——但他問得很好。一個非有機的 Vaca Muerta 油專案，在風險調整後 IRR 方面，和尿素專案或 San Matias 管線相比，排名如何？這確實是個好問題。

Good question. We are permanently looking at opportunities in oil, in the shale oil window. It's very hard to give an IRR because it will very much depend on the quality of the asset. I would say that for a good asset, definitely, we will be tempted to go ahead into inorganically operation.

好問題。我們一直在油、在頁岩油區持續尋找機會。IRR 很難給出，因為很大程度取決於資產品質。我會說，對於好的資產，我們肯定會有動力以非有機方式推進營運。

Regarding San Matias, it's not a project itself. It's part of the investment of the floating LNG project and is done by the same shareholder structure of SESA of the whole project.

至於 San Matias，它本身不是一個獨立專案。它是浮式 LNG 專案投資的一部分，並由整個專案中 SESA 相同的股東結構來執行。

Another question from -- I don't know how it pronounced, sorry, but I guess it's Gergolet from Scarlet Macaw Capital. The first question about the hedge is answered, but the second question is very funny. It's worth asking is with abundant gas potential in Argentina, what about petrochemicals? It is barely profitable? Or does it make sense to keep it? Or would you consider selling it to simplify the company like you sold the mature oil fields.

另一個問題來自——我不知道怎麼唸，抱歉，但我猜是 Scarlet Macaw Capital 的 Gergolet。關於避險的第一個問題已經回答了，但第二個問題很有趣。值得一問的是：在阿根廷天然氣潛力充沛的情況下，石化業務怎麼看？它幾乎不賺錢嗎？或是繼續保留是否有意義？或者你們會考慮出售它，以簡化公司，就像你們出售成熟油田那樣。

We are looking for alternatives, but nothing is on the table at this point.

我們正在尋找替代方案，但目前沒有任何方案在檯面上。

Edward Palma, he's asking, given the negative cash flow generation, are you planning to raise additional debt? Or is a focus on improving working capital management? A little bit was by.

Edward Palma 問：鑑於自由現金流為負，你們是否計畫再增加負債？或者重點是改善營運資金管理？剛才有稍微提到。

Well, we always have to like to have high liquidity to keep all our options open. Yes, it could be the case that we decide to continue tapping the market in the medium term.

嗯，我們一向希望維持高流動性，以保留所有選項。是的，中期來看，我們可能會決定持續進入市場籌資。

Okay. Ignacio Lopez from Puente. He would like to ask the outlook for gas segment, particularly considering the increase in production and the lower exposure to Plant gas. Could you share your expectation for local gas prices this year, especially for volumes traded outside Plan gas? I guess he's asking about the industry.

好的。來自 Puente 的 Ignacio Lopez。他想詢問天然氣部門的展望，特別是考量產量增加以及對 Plan Gas 的曝險降低。你們能否分享今年本地天然氣價格的預期，尤其是 Plan Gas 以外交易的量？我猜他是在問整個產業。

He's asking about the market in an overall view. As we mentioned before, it's the first time in many years that they are giving the right signal to the market. Our view is that the gas prices for 2026 are going to be higher than last year.

他是在問市場的整體看法。如我們先前提到的，這是多年來第一次他們給市場正確的訊號。我們的看法是，2026 年的天然氣價格會高於去年。

Now with the war.

現在又有戰爭。

With the war and with -- particularly in the domestic market with the possibility of selling your gas at an alternative -- at least a percentage, but the alternative import parity.

在戰爭以及——特別是在國內市場，若有可能以替代價格出售你的天然氣——至少是一部分——也就是替代的進口平價。

Armando Moretti, he's asking, do you plan to pay dividends?

Armando Moretti 問：你們計畫發放股利嗎？

No.

不。

Thank you very much. I don't know if you would like to add some comments.

非常感謝。我不知道你是否想補充一些評論。

We covered all.

我們都涵蓋到了。

Next earnings is on August, okay? Thank you very much.

下一次財報是在 8 月，好嗎？非常感謝。

Thank you very much. Thank you for your attendance.

非常感謝。感謝各位出席。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Thank you. Have a good day.

謝謝。祝各位有美好的一天。