MFA Financial Inc (MFA) 2025 Q2 法說會逐字稿

Greetings, and welcome to the MFA Financial, Inc., second-quarter 2025 financial results conference call and webcast. (Operator Instructions)

大家好，歡迎參加 MFA Financial, Inc. 2025 年第二季財務業績電話會議和網路廣播。（操作員指示）

As a reminder, this conference is being recorded. It's now my pleasure to turn the call over to Hal Schwartz, General Counsel. Please go ahead, sir.

提醒一下，本次會議正在錄製中。現在我很高興將電話轉給總法律顧問哈爾‧施瓦茨 (Hal Schwartz)。先生，請繼續。

Thank you, Kevin. And good morning, everyone. The information discussed on this conference call today may contain or refer to forward-looking statements regarding MFA Financial, Inc., which reflect management's beliefs, expectations, and assumptions as to MFA's future performance and operations. When used, statements that are not historical in nature, including those containing words such as will, believe, expect, anticipate, estimate, should, could, would, or similar expressions are intended to identify forward-looking statements.

謝謝你，凱文。大家早安。今天電話會議上討論的資訊可能包含或提及有關 MFA Financial, Inc. 的前瞻性陳述，這些陳述反映了管理層對 MFA 未來業績和營運的信念、期望和假設。使用時，非歷史性質的陳述，包括包含將、相信、期望、預期、估計、應該、可能、會或類似表達的詞語，旨在識別前瞻性陳述。

All forward-looking statements speak only as of the date on which they are made. These types of statements are subject to various known and unknown risks, uncertainties, assumptions and other factors, including those described in MFA's annual report on Form 10-K for the year ended December 31, 2024, and other reports that it may file from time to time with the Securities and Exchange Commission.

所有前瞻性陳述僅代表其作出之日的觀點。這些類型的聲明受各種已知和未知的風險、不確定性、假設和其他因素的影響，包括 MFA 截至 2024 年 12 月 31 日的 10-K 表格年度報告中所述的因素以及其可能不時向美國證券交易委員會提交的其他報告中所述的因素。

These risks, uncertainties, and other factors could cause MFA's actual results to differ materially from those projected, expressed, or implied in any forward-looking statements it makes. For additional information regarding MFA's use of forward-looking statements, please see the relevant disclosure in the press release announcing MFA's second quarter 2025 financial results.

這些風險、不確定性和其他因素可能導致 MFA 的實際結果與其所做的任何前瞻性陳述中預測、表達或暗示的結果有重大差異。有關 MFA 使用前瞻性陳述的更多信息，請參閱宣布 MFA 2025 年第二季度財務業績的新聞稿中的相關披露。

Thank you for your time. I would now like to turn this call over to MFA's CEO, Craig Knutson.

感謝您抽出時間。現在我想將這個電話轉給 MFA 的執行長 Craig Knutson。

Thank you, Hal. Good morning, everyone, and thank you for joining us for MFA Financial's second-quarter 2025 earnings call. With me today are Bryan Wulfsohn, our President and Chief Investment Officer; Mike Roper, our CFO; and other members of our senior management team.

謝謝你，哈爾。大家早安，感謝您參加 MFA Financial 2025 年第二季財報電話會議。今天與我一起的有我們的總裁兼首席投資長 Bryan Wulfsohn、我們的財務長 Mike Roper 以及我們高階管理團隊的其他成員。

I'll begin with a high-level review of the second quarter market environment and then touch on some of our results, activities, and opportunities. Then, I'll turn the call over to Mike to review our financial results in more detail, followed by Bryan who will review our portfolio financing, Lima One, and risk management before we open up the call for questions.

我將首先對第二季的市場環境進行高層次的回顧，然後談談我們的一些成果、活動和機會。然後，我會將電話轉給 Mike，讓他更詳細地回顧我們的財務結果，然後由 Bryan 回顧我們的投資組合融資、Lima One 和風險管理，然後我們開始提問。

I'm sure you will all remember the market turmoil that ran in the second quarter with Liberation Day on April 2. Two-year treasuries ended the first quarter at 3.88%, rallied to 3.65% by April 4, sold off to 3.96% on April 11 and rallied again to 3.60% on April 30 and then subsequently sold off to 4.05% on May 14. 10-year treasuries followed a similar trajectory, rallying 20 basis points to 3.99% on April 4, selling off 50 basis points to 4.49% on April 11, closing the month of April at 4.16% and then selling off to 4.60% by May 21.

我相信大家都會記得 4 月 2 日解放日那一天，第二季的市場動盪。兩年期公債殖利率在第一季末為 3.88%，到 4 月 4 日反彈至 3.65%，4 月 11 日跌至 3.96%，4 月 30 日再次反彈至 3.60%，隨後在 5 月 14 日跌至 4.05%。 10 年期公債殖利率也呈現類似趨勢，4 月 4 日上漲 20 個基點至 3.99%，4 月 11 日跌至 50 個基點至 4.49%，4 月底收在 4.16%，5 月 21 日跌至 4.60%。

Fortunately, cooler heads appear to have prevailed since then, both in Washington, DC, and in bond and equity markets. At least until last Friday's employment report revisions, 2s and 10s have generally each settled into their own 25 basis point ranges since mid-May and equity markets have continued to grind higher, again, last Friday, notwithstanding.

幸運的是，從那時起，無論是在華盛頓特區還是在債券和股票市場，冷靜的頭腦似乎都佔了上風。至少在上週五就業報告修訂之前，自 5 月中旬以來，2 元和 10 元利率一般都穩定在各自的 25 個基點範圍內，儘管如此，上週五股市仍繼續緩慢走高。

Mortgage spreads -- mortgage credit spreads track other risk assets widening somewhat in April and then retracing back to or near levels seen at the end of Q1 by the end of the second quarter. Importantly, the market for securitized mortgage credit assets and non-QM securitizations in particular, continues to deepen as liquidity increases and investor appetites remain strong.

抵押貸款利差－抵押貸款信貸利差跟隨其他風險資產在 4 月有所擴大，然後在第二季末回落至或接近第一季末的水平。重要的是，隨著流動性增加和投資者興趣保持強勁，證券化抵押貸款信貸資產市場，尤其是非合格抵押貸款證券化的市場，將繼續深化。

Spreads widen and tighten along with other risk assets, but deals get done and priced in a very orderly fashion. This was decidedly not the case as recently as 2023 when at times demand was weak spreads were much more volatile and some deals were pulled from the market. The depth and reliability of this market is a powerful testament to this durable source of financing that we utilize to finance over 80% of our loan portfolio.

利差隨其他風險資產的擴大和縮小而擴大，但交易以非常有序的方式完成和定價。直到 2023 年，情況才明顯不同，當時需求疲軟，價差波動較大，一些交易被撤出市場。這個市場的深度和可靠性有力地證明了這個持久融資來源，我們利用該融資來源為超過 80% 的貸款組合提供融資。

The economic and macro environments, while never certain, seem a bit more clear as the year progresses. Growth, though slower than originally expected, is remarkably resilient. The passage of the tax and spending bill has removed the market uncertainty that had been associated with that. Inflation fears have moderated, particularly as tariff negotiations begin to get resolved at less draconian levels than originally feared.

儘管經濟和宏觀環境尚不確定，但隨著時間的推移，情況似乎變得更加明朗。儘管成長速度低於最初的預期，但仍具有極強的韌性。稅收和支出法案的通過消除了與此相關的市場不確定性。通膨擔憂已經緩和，特別是隨著關稅談判開始以比最初擔心的更寬鬆的水平解決。

Employment continues to grow, albeit at a reduced pace, although with the substantial revisions in last Friday's jobs report, a strong case can be made that the jobs market is not as healthy as previously believed. Amidst the drama between the President and the Fed Chair, consensus now seems to be for two rate cuts later this year and lower short rates is always a helpful tonic for mortgage REITs.

儘管成長速度有所放緩，但就業率仍在繼續增長，儘管上週五的就業報告進行了大幅修訂，但仍有充分理由表明就業市場並不像之前認為的那樣健康。在總統和聯準會主席之間的戲劇性事件中，現在的共識似乎是今年晚些時候將降息兩次，而較低的短期利率對於抵押房地產投資信託基金來說始終是有益的。

Finally, housing is languishing somewhat as demand continues to fall off due to interest rate and affordability challenges. Actual home price declines have, for the most part, been concentrated in specific geographies where new supply has saturated these local markets.

最後，由於利率和負擔能力的挑戰導致需求持續下降，房屋市場略顯低迷。實際房價下跌大部分集中在特定地區，這些地區的新增供應已經飽和。

There's still a fundamental nationwide supply shortage, so it's hard to envision more than a very modest weakness in home prices nationwide. Homeowners with existing mortgages today are generally not over-levered and years of substantial HPA, coupled with prudent and sensible underwriting practices means that LTVs are low enough that even in the event of a job loss, death, or divorce, borrowers have substantial equity and will sell their property to extract their equity and pay off the lender.

全國範圍內仍然存在根本性的供應短缺，因此很難想像全國房價會出現比溫和疲軟更大的幅度。如今，擁有現有抵押貸款的房主通常不會過度負債，而且多年來大量的房屋抵押貸款資產評估 (HPA) 加上審慎合理的承保做法意味著貸款價值比 (LTV) 足夠低，即使在失業、死亡或離婚的情況下，借款人也擁有大量資產，並會出售其房產以提取資產並償還貸款人。

In the midst of this environment, our portfolio delivered a total economic return of 1.5% for the second quarter and 3.4% year-to-date, which includes our first two quarterly dividends, which we increased to $0.36 in the first quarter. Our economic book value in the second quarter was down very modestly by 1%.

在這種環境下，我們的投資組合第二季的總經濟回報率為 1.5%，年初至今的總經濟回報率為 3.4%，其中包括我們的前兩個季度股息，我們在第一季將股息提高到 0.36 美元。我們第二季的經濟帳面價值小幅下降了 1%。

Our distributable earnings for the quarter was $0.24 per share and were negatively affected by credit losses incurred on certain business purpose loans that were realized during the quarter. Absent these credit losses, DE would have been $0.35. As a reminder, these credit losses do not impact DE until actually realized. And as Mike Roper has emphasized for the last few quarters, these loans were marked down in 2024 and earlier when they went delinquent.

本季我們的可分配收益為每股 0.24 美元，並受到本季實現的某些商業用途貸款所產生的信用損失的負面影響。若不計入這些信用損失，DE 應為 0.35 美元。需要提醒的是，這些信用損失在實際實現之前不會對 DE 產生影響。正如 Mike Roper 在過去幾季所強調的那樣，這些貸款在 2024 年及之前出現拖欠時就被減記了。

Our fair value assets are mark-to-market every quarter. So the economic credit loss was realized through GAAP earnings and a reduction in book value a long time ago. Said another way, these realized credit losses that reduced distributable earnings in the second quarter are old news. Mike will provide additional color on the actual resolution amount versus the marks on these loans in his prepared remarks.

我們的公允價值資產每季以市價計價。因此，經濟信用損失很久以前就已經透過 GAAP 收益和帳面價值的減少實現了。換句話說，這些已實現的信貸損失減少了第二季的可分配收益，這已經是舊聞了。麥克將在其準備好的發言中對這些貸款的實際解決金額與分數進行比較提供更多說明。

We were active in the second quarter, sourcing $876 million of loans and securities across our target asset classes. These included $503 million of non-QM loans, $131 million of Agency MBS, and $217 million of business purpose loans at Lima One. We issued our 18th non-QM securitization in early May. We sold $38 million of newly originated SFR loans and $24 million of delinquent transitional loans. Our overall leverage at the end of the quarter was 5.2 times, and our recourse leverage was 1.8 times.

我們在第二季表現活躍，在目標資產類別中獲得了 8.76 億美元的貸款和證券。其中包括5.03億美元的非合格市場貸款、1.31億美元的機構抵押貸款支持證券（MBS）以及Lima One的2.17億美元商業用途貸款。我們於5月初發行了第18筆非合格市場證券化產品。我們出售了 3800 萬美元的新發放 SFR 貸款和 2400 萬美元的拖欠過渡貸款。本季末我們的整體槓桿率為5.2倍，追索權槓桿率為1.8倍。

Once again, the second quarter demonstrated that MFA's investment portfolio, our balance sheet composition and risk management approach are positioned to deliver results across multiple scenarios and weather unexpected market volatility and uncertainty.

第二季再次證明，MFA 的投資組合、資產負債表組成和風險管理方法能夠在多種情況下取得成果，並抵禦意外的市場波動和不確定性。

And I will now turn the call over to Mike Roper to discuss financial results.

現在我將把電話轉給麥克羅珀討論財務結果。

Thanks, Craig, and good morning. At June 30, GAAP book value was $13.12 per share and economic book value was $13.69 per share, each down about 1% from the end of March. MFA again paid a common dividend of $0.36 and delivered a total economic return of positive 1.5% for the quarter. MFA generated GAAP earnings of $33.2 million or $0.22 per basic common share in the second quarter. Our GAAP results were driven by growth in our net interest income to $61.3 million as well as modest net mark-to-market gains.

謝謝，克雷格，早安。截至 6 月 30 日，GAAP 帳面價值為每股 13.12 美元，經濟帳面價值為每股 13.69 美元，均較 3 月底下降約 1%。MFA 再次支付了 0.36 美元的普通股股息，並在本季度實現了正 1.5% 的總經濟回報。MFA 在第二季度實現了 3,320 萬美元的 GAAP 收益，即每股基本普通股 0.22 美元。我們的 GAAP 業績得益於淨利息收入成長至 6,130 萬美元以及適度的淨市價收益。

This marks the third consecutive quarter we've grown our net interest income, driven by additions of higher-yielding assets over the last several quarters. Net interest income also benefited from a nonrecurring $2.6 million acceleration of discount accretion on our MSR-related assets, which were redeemed during the quarter.

這是我們的淨利息收入連續第三個季度成長，這得益於過去幾季高收益資產的增加。淨利息收入也受惠於我們本季贖回的 MSR 相關資產的非經常性 260 萬美元折扣加速增值。

During Q2, we continued to make meaningful progress resolving nonperforming loans. We reduced overall portfolio 60-plus day delinquency from 7.5% to 7.3% and lowered the balance of loans on nonaccrual status by $33.6 million compared to last quarter.

第二季度，我們在解決不良貸款方面持續取得重大進展。我們將整體投資組合 60 天以上的拖欠率從 7.5% 降低至 7.3%，並將非應計貸款餘額與上一季相比降低了 3,360 萬美元。

In addition to our more traditional asset management activities, we resolved approximately $24 million of some of our most challenged transitional loans via loan sale during the quarter. We expect to utilize additional loan sales in the second half of this year to continue to accelerate the resolution of underperforming assets, allowing us to unlock and redeploy capital at mid- to high-teen ROEs.

除了我們更傳統的資產管理活動外，我們還在本季透過貸款出售解決了一些最具挑戰性的過渡貸款，其中約 2,400 萬美元。我們預計將在今年下半年利用額外的貸款銷售來繼續加速解決表現不佳的資產，使我們能夠在中高水準的 ROE 下解鎖和重新部署資本。

Importantly, because our assets are predominantly accounted for at fair value, the expected losses associated with these potential sales and resolutions have already been recorded in our GAAP results and in book value in prior periods, in some cases, years ago as unrealized losses. We mark our portfolio each quarter to what we and our third-party pricing services believe are the levels at which the loans would trade in the secondary market to a level net of expected credit losses.

重要的是，由於我們的資產主要以公允價值計算，與這些潛在銷售和解決方案相關的預期損失已記錄在我們的 GAAP 結果和前期帳面價值中，在某些情況下，是幾年前的未實現損失。我們每季都會對我們的投資組合進行標記，以達到我們和第三方定價服務認為的貸款在二級市場上交易的水平，扣除預期的信用損失。

Confirming this belief, during the quarter, we resolved the current approximately $200 million UPB of previously nonperforming loans. After reversing previously recognized fair value marks on these assets, the net impact on our GAAP results and our book value for the quarter was a net gain of over $0.03 per share. We believe this net gain on asset resolution highlights the quality of our loan marks and of our financial reporting.

為了證實這一信念，我們在本季解決了目前約 2 億美元的 UPB 不良貸款。在撤銷這些資產先前確認的公允價值標記後，對我們的 GAAP 業績和本季帳面價值的淨影響是每股淨收益超過 0.03 美元。我們相信，資產處置的淨收益凸顯了我們的貸款品質和財務報告的品質。

Moving to our distributable earnings. DE for the quarter was $24.7 million or $0.24 per share, a decline from $0.29 per share in the first quarter. The decline was driven primarily by credit losses on fair value loans, which totaled $0.10 per share for the quarter, approximately $0.06 higher than in Q1 as well as a $0.02 increase in the dividend rate on our Series C preferred, which began floating on March 31. As Craig mentioned, our DE, excluding credit losses, was $0.35 per share, nearly in line with our common dividend.

轉向我們的可分配收益。本季的 DE 為 2,470 萬美元，即每股 0.24 美元，低於第一季的每股 0.29 美元。下降的主要原因是公允價值貸款的信用損失，本季總計每股 0.10 美元，比第一季度高出約 0.06 美元，以及我們的 C 系列優先股的股息率增加 0.02 美元，該系列優先股於 3 月 31 日開始浮動。正如 Craig 所提到的，我們的 DE（不包括信用損失）為每股 0.35 美元，幾乎與我們的普通股息一致。

For the quarter, our consolidated G&A expenses totaled $29.9 million, a decline from $33.5 million in the first quarter. Second quarter results included severance and related transition costs of $1.2 million, the result of expense reduction initiatives across both MFA and Lima One. We expect that once complete, these initiatives will further improve our cost structure, lowering our run rate G&A expenses by 7% to 10% per year from 2024 levels or approximately $0.02 to $0.03 per quarter.

本季度，我們的綜合一般及行政開支總計 2,990 萬美元，較第一季的 3,350 萬美元有所下降。第二季業績包含120萬美元的遣散費及相關過渡費用，得益於MFA和Lima One的費用削減措施。我們預計，這些措施完成後，將進一步改善我們的成本結構，使我們的營運成本（G&A）在2024年的基礎上每年降低7%至10%，即每季降低約0.02美元至0.03美元。

Though we expect some short-term pressure on distributable earnings, particularly over the next two quarters, we have confidence in both the current earnings power of the portfolio and the current level of our common dividend. We continue to expect that our DE will begin to reconverge with the level of our common dividend in the first half of 2026. Finally, subsequent to quarter end, we estimate that our economic book value has increased by approximately 1% to 2% since the end of the second quarter.

儘管我們預計可分配收益將在短期內面臨一些壓力，尤其是在接下來的兩個季度，但我們對投資組合當前的獲利能力和當前的普通股股息水平充滿信心。我們繼續預計，我們的 DE 將在 2026 年上半年開始與我們的普通股股息水準重新趨同。最後，在季度末之後，我們估計我們的經濟帳面價值自第二季末以來增長了約 1% 至 2%。

I'd now like to turn the call over to Bryan, who will discuss our investment activities in the second quarter.

現在我想把電話轉給布萊恩，他將討論我們第二季的投資活動。

Thanks, Mike. We grew our investment portfolio to $10.8 billion in the second quarter. We continue to focus on our target asset classes of non-QM loans, business purpose loans, and agency securities. We sourced and purchased over $500 million of non-QM loans during the quarter. These loans carry an average coupon of 7.8% and an average LTV of 66%. We established relationships with two new originators during the quarter, and we will look to add more moving forward.

謝謝，麥克。我們第二季的投資組合成長至 108 億美元。我們繼續關注非 QM 貸款、商業用途貸款和代理證券等目標資產類別。本季度，我們採購並購買了超過 5 億美元的非 QM 貸款。這些貸款的平均票面利率為 7.8%，平均 LTV 為 66%。我們在本季與兩家新的發起人建立了合作關係，並期待在未來與更多發起人建立合作關係。

Underwriting standards in the non-QM space remain prudent and mid- to high-teen ROEs remain achievable with securitization funding. The market continues to be supportive of non-QM issuance as the total bonds sold by all issuers so far this year has already nearly eclipsed the total from all of last year. We completed our 18th non-QM securitization in May, selling $291 million of bonds at an average coupon of 5.76%. As Craig mentioned, credit spreads were volatile during the quarter, especially in April when AAAs widened to as much as 175 basis points over treasuries. But spreads tightened over the remainder of the quarter back to where they were before the trade war turmoil started.

非 QM 領域的承銷標準仍保持審慎，透過證券化融資仍可實現中高水準的 ROE。市場繼續支持非 QM 債券的發行，因為今年迄今為止所有發行人出售的債券總額幾乎超過了去年全年的總額。我們在 5 月完成了第 18 次非 QM 證券化，以平均票面利率 5.76% 的價格出售了價值 2.91 億美元的債券。正如克雷格所提到的，本季信貸利差波動較大，尤其是在 4 月份，AAA 級債券利差擴大至高於國債 175 個基點。但在本季剩餘時間內，利差收窄至貿易戰動盪開始前的水平。

On Monday of this week, we priced our 19th non-QM securitization and were able to improve pricing due to strong investor demand. We again added to our Agency MBS portfolio during the quarter, growing our position to $1.75 billion. Our focus remains on low pay-up securities, generally 5.5% that we were able to purchase at modest discounts to par. We plan to grow our agency position further as long as spreads remain attractive.

本週一，我們對第 19 個非 QM 證券化進行了定價，由於投資者需求強勁，我們得以提高定價。本季度，我們再次增加了機構 MBS 投資組合，持股規模增加至 17.5 億美元。我們的重點仍然是低償付證券，一般為 5.5%，我們能夠以低於票面價值的適當折扣購買。只要利差仍然具有吸引力，我們就計劃進一步擴大我們的代理地位。

Turning to Lima One. Lima originated $217 million of business purpose loans during the quarter, a slight uptick from the first quarter. This included $167 million of single-family transitional loans with an average coupon north of 10% and $50 million of new 30-year rental loans with an average coupon of 7.5%. As a reminder, we continue to sell newly originated rental loans to third-party investors.

談到 Lima One，Lima 在本季發放了 2.17 億美元的商業貸款，較第一季略有上升。其中包括 1.67 億美元的單戶過渡貸款（平均票面利率超過 10%）和 5,000 萬美元的 30 年期新租賃貸款（平均票面利率為 7.5%）。提醒一下，我們繼續向第三方投資者出售新發放的租賃貸款。

Lima as a whole contributed $6.1 million of mortgage banking income for the quarter, an increase from $5.4 million in the first quarter. Lima again had success adding to its sales force, hiring 15 new loan officers during the quarter. Although origination volumes are down both at Lima as well as across the industry, we expect these new hires, along with significant progress on technology initiatives to lead growth in origination volume and profitability in the latter half of this year.

利馬銀行本季整體貢獻了 610 萬美元的抵押貸款銀行收入，高於第一季的 540 萬美元。利馬再次成功擴大了銷售隊伍，在本季度僱用了 15 名新的貸款人員。儘管利馬和整個行業的起源量都在下降，但我們預計這些新員工以及技術舉措的重大進展將在今年下半年帶動起源量和盈利能力的增長。

Moving to our credit performance. As Mike mentioned, the 60-plus day delinquency rate for our entire loan portfolio declined to 7.3% in the second quarter. Default rates for our non-QM and rental loans remained exceptionally low at approximately 4% and fell to an all-time low in our legacy RPL/NPL book. We continue to be hard at work addressing our nonperforming transitional loans. We sold $24 million of delinquent transitional loans during the quarter and expect to sell more later this year.

轉向我們的信用表現。正如麥克所提到的，我們整個貸款組合的 60 天以上拖欠率在第二季下降至 7.3%。我們的非 QM 和租賃貸款的違約率仍然保持在極低的水平，約為 4%，並且在我們的傳統 RPL/NPL 帳簿中降至歷史最低水平。我們將繼續努力解決不良過渡貸款問題。我們在本季出售了 2,400 萬美元的拖欠過渡貸款，預計今年稍後將出售更多。

Although the default rate percentage rose again for our single-family transitional portfolio, it's important to note that loan delinquencies actually declined by $2 million, and we received $269 million of principal repayments, up from $249 million in the first quarter. We again resolved $35 million of previously delinquent multifamily loans during the quarter and received $99 million of principal repayments.

儘管我們的單戶過渡型投資組合的違約率再次上升，但值得注意的是，貸款拖欠率實際上下降了 200 萬美元，我們收到了 2.69 億美元的本金償還款，高於第一季的 2.49 億美元。本季度，我們再次解決了 3500 萬美元的先前拖欠的多戶家庭貸款，並收到了 9900 萬美元的本金償還。

And with that, we'll turn the call over to the operator for questions.

然後，我們會將電話轉給接線員以回答問題。

(Operator Instructions) Bose George, KBW.

（操作員指示）Bose George，KBW。

Actually, first, I'm going to ask about where you see the economic return for the portfolio. So the -- like you talked about there's this $0.10 of credit. There's a couple of cents that we get from the expense side that gets us above the dividend. I mean, is that kind of the economic return? Or is there sort of incremental upside as you redeploy some of the capital that's in the troubled loans at the moment?

實際上，首先我想問一下您認為該投資組合的經濟回報如何。所以——就像您說的，有 0.10 美元的信用額度。我們從支出方面獲得的幾美分使我們的收益超過了股息。我的意思是，這就是經濟回報嗎？或者，當您重新部署目前問題貸款中的部分資本時，是否會出現某種增量上行空間？

Thanks for the question, Bose. I think a couple of parts to your question there. So we talk about the economic return of the portfolio regularly on these calls as well as internally and with our Board and setting dividend policy. And one of the sort of downsides of DE and really any accounting metric is that it's backward looking.

謝謝你的提問，Bose。我認為你的問題有幾個部分。因此，我們會定期在電話會議上以及與董事會內部討論投資組合的經濟回報並制定股利政策。DE 以及任何會計指標的缺點之一就是它具有回顧性。

When we think about the earnings power of the portfolio, we try to think about the go-forward earnings power. And if you think about the sort of ROEs the portfolio is generating on a mark-to-market basis, that's really how we think about the economic earnings power of the portfolio.

當我們考慮投資組合的獲利能力時，我們會嘗試考慮未來的獲利能力。如果你考慮投資組合在以市價計價的基礎上產生的 ROE 類型，這實際上就是我們對投資組合的經濟獲利能力的看法。

For example, we have some loans that were purchased in 2021 that are held at a pretty significant discount with a coupon rate of, call it, 4%. Because that asset is accounted for at fair value, if you think about the total economics of that, whether it shows up in interest income or in the mark, that asset clearly is earning more than 4% today.

例如，我們在 2021 年購買了一些貸款，這些貸款的票面利率為 4%，折扣相當大。因為該資產是以公允價值計算的，所以如果考慮其總體經濟效益，無論它是體現在利息收入中還是體現在市場中，該資產今天的收益顯然超過 4%。

So when we take that sort of mark-to-market ROE and do the same thing on the hedges and the liabilities and then you layer in your expenses and the P&L that Lima is generating associated with their origination platform, the economic earnings power is much closer to the 10% dividend yield already.

因此，當我們採用這種以市價計價的 ROE，並對對沖和負債進行同樣的操作，然後將您的費用和利馬與其發起平台相關的損益表分層，經濟盈利能力已經更接近 10% 的股息收益率。

I think the second part of your question as far as additional upside, I think the answer is definitely yes. I mean we've been running with quite a bit of dry powder for some time now. Our recourse leverage is 1.8 times. And even ignoring the $275 million of cash, we have a lot of capacity to turn up that leverage number a bit. So there's definitely some upside there. And you'll see that we've added a large number of assets again this quarter as we have for the last several quarters.

我認為你問題的第二部分關於額外好處的問題，答案肯定是肯定的。我的意思是，我們已經用了相當多的乾粉一段時間了。我們的追索槓桿是1.8倍。即使忽略 2.75 億美元的現金，我們也有很大能力稍微提高槓桿。因此這其中肯定存在一些好處。您會發現，與過去幾季一樣，本季我們又增加了大量資產。

And Bose, just to clarify one thing, Mike said that the 10% dividend yield, he means the 10% dividend yield on our book value, not on the stock price.

還有 Bose，我只是想澄清一件事，Mike 所說的 10% 股息收益率，是指我們的帳面價值的 10% 股息收益率，而不是股價的 10%。

That's right.

這是正確的。

Okay. Yeah, absolutely makes sense. And then in terms of the different areas where you can allocate capital, like where do you see the best ROEs at the moment?

好的。是的，絕對有道理。那麼，就您可以分配資本的不同領域而言，您認為目前哪些領域的 ROE 最好？

I mean, we still -- we like really all three. You saw we were most active in non-QM and all three being non-QM, agency and business purpose loans. Our hope is over time to sort of grow the business purpose loan originations, which have the highest sort of face ROE.

我的意思是，我們仍然——我們真的喜歡這三個。您會看到，我們在非 QM 領域最為活躍，並且這三種貸款均為非 QM、代理和商業用途貸款。我們希望隨著時間的推移，能夠增加商業用途貸款的發放量，從而實現最高的面額 ROE。

And as we've mentioned, we're hiring people down in Lima One, and we do expect to see growth in that origination. So really, it's continuing to deploy across all those three. But if Lima could do more origination, we would definitely have -- prefer that over the other two.

正如我們所提到的，我們正在 Lima One 招募員工，我們確實希望看到該地區的業務成長。所以實際上，它正在這三個領域繼續部署。但如果利馬能夠做更多的起源，我們肯定會 - 比其他兩個更喜歡它。

Steve Delaney, Citizens JMP.

史蒂夫·德萊尼 (Steve Delaney)，公民 JMP。

The 15 new loan officers hired, I understand that's at Lima One. Could you comment on that? Are these going to be generalist producers? Is there any product specialty that you're trying to develop? And I guess, most importantly, is there any new geo? Have you opened offices in any new states as a result of the new producers?

據我了解，Lima One 已聘用了 15 名新貸款專員。您對此有何評論？這些人會成為多面手生產商嗎？您正在嘗試開發什麼特色產品嗎？我想，最重要的是，是否有新的地理位置？由於新生產商的出現，你們是否在新的州開設了辦公室？

Yeah. The focus is generally, I would say, West and Midwest in terms of the hires. We believe them to be sort of high-quality hires coming over from competitors.

是的。我認為，就招募而言，重點一般是西部和中西部。我們相信他們是從競爭對手那裡招募來的高品質人才。

And if you think about the ramp process, right, somebody comes online, it takes them a few months to get comfortable with the product and the processes that Lima One has versus where they may have been previously. So it's sort of -- we're seeing growth now, but we do expect to see much more aggressive growth sort of back half of this year and into next year as these people really start producing.

如果你考慮一下提升過程，對吧，有人上線後，他們需要幾個月的時間來熟悉 Lima One 的產品和流程，而不是他們以前所採用的流程。所以，我們現在看到的是成長，但我們預計，隨著這些人真正開始生產，今年下半年和明年將出現更積極的成長。

Yeah. Okay. And how many total producers, you may have mentioned it, I apologize, now as we sit today at Lima One?

是的。好的。您可能已經提到過，很抱歉，我們今天坐在 Lima One 會議上，總共有多少位生產商？

Yeah. We were pushing, I think, 50, and the goal is to continue growing that, I think, closer to 80.

是的。我認為，我們正在努力實現 50 的目標，目標是繼續成長，我認為，接近 80。

Okay. So there's some runway still to go there. Okay. I think that's good. Thank you for the clarity on the dividend coverage. I was looking at page 16 in the deck, and it's helpful, but the unrealized and realized gains and losses don't let us kind of count on our own with the deck and without Mike help this morning, really -- we can't really back into coverage based on realized losses.

好的。因此，還有一些路要走。好的。我認為那很好。感謝您對股息覆蓋範圍的澄清。我正在看簡報的第 16 頁，它很有幫助，但是未實現和已實現的收益和損失讓我們無法依靠簡報自己，如果沒有麥克今天早上的幫助，我們真的無法真正根據已實現的損失重新獲得保障。

So just throw that out for consideration as far as the way you show it in the deck. But good progress all around strategically, and I realize that the losses are a work in process, and we've got a little bit ways to go to get all that behind us. But thank you for the time this morning.

因此，只要考慮一下在牌組中展示它的方式。但從策略上來說，我們取得了良好的進展，我意識到損失是一個不斷累積的過程，我們還有很長的路要走才能擺脫這一切。但感謝您今天早上抽出時間。

Thanks, Steve.

謝謝，史蒂夫。

Thanks, Steve.

謝謝，史蒂夫。

Thanks, Steve.

謝謝，史蒂夫。

Jason Stewart, Janney Montgomery Scott.

傑森史都華、珍妮蒙哥馬利史考特。

Just to follow a little bit on Bose's question. You talked about growing Lima One. But as we think about the balance sheet going into the easing cycle and maybe post steepener on the yield curve, like how do you envision capital allocation trending between the businesses on the balance sheet?

稍微回答一下 Bose 的問題。您談到了Lima One的成長。但是，考慮到資產負債表即將進入寬鬆週期，殖利率曲線可能會進一步陡峭化，您如何預測資產負債表上各業務之間的資本配置趨勢？

Yeah. I mean, really, if you think about a steepener, right, Lima One is still originating assets that have coupons north of 10%. So if you have steepener and the short end comes down, maybe that coupon goes from 10% to 9% or to 8.5% or something like that. But the borrowing costs against those is also going to come down commensurate. So right now, in securitization, you can get funding in the 5 handles, right?

是的。我的意思是，實際上，如果您考慮一下陡峭化，那麼 Lima One 仍然在發行票面利率超過 10% 的資產。因此，如果您使用陡峭化利率並且短端利率下降，那麼息票利率可能會從 10% 降至 9% 或 8.5% 或類似的水平。但這些資產的借貸成本也將隨之下降。那麼現在，在證券化中，你可以在 5 個管道獲得資金，對嗎？

So if that front end were to come down, you would see that cost of funds drop into probably the low 5s, 4% handle. So it's still very sort of accretive to us to originate those loans. And when you look across non-QM, it does benefit our existing portfolio and incremental loans will fund incrementally better, but I would expect those loan prices to be bid up more aggressively as the curve does steepen. So it may be a more competitive environment and may compress yields somewhat there.

因此，如果前端下降，您會看到資金成本可能下降到 5% 以下，即 4% 左右。因此，發放這些貸款對我們來說仍然具有很大的增值作用。當你縱觀非 QM 時，它確實有利於我們現有的投資組合，增量貸款將逐步提供更好的資金，但我預計，隨著曲線變陡，這些貸款價格將被更積極地抬高。因此，這可能是一個競爭更加激烈的環境，並且可能會在一定程度上壓縮收益率。

Okay. And then thinking through the post steepener, and I guess more specifically then on the agency, would that be a strategy you deemphasize at that point in a flatter curve environment and redeploy that capital into Lima One and other strategies?

好的。然後透過後陡化器進行思考，我想更具體地說是關於代理機構，這是否是您在平坦曲線環境中淡化這一策略並將該資本重新部署到 Lima One 和其他策略中？

That's right. It really is -- we view these current spread levels as opportunistic to deploy capital in Agency MBS. If those spreads were to come in, we would redeploy those assets and that portfolio into our other credit assets.

這是正確的。確實如此——我們認為目前的利差水準是向機構 MBS 部署資本的機會。如果出現這些利差，我們將把這些資產和投資組合重新部署到我們的其他信貸資產中。

Okay. That's helpful. And then just a follow-up from -- I think last quarter, you had said something about $40 million-ish of discount on multi-transitional. Just comparing quarter-to-quarter, would that compare to the -- I think you had $33.6 million. What's the right comparison to look at there quarter-to-quarter?

好的。這很有幫助。然後只是一個後續問題——我想上個季度，您曾說過多過渡性折扣約為 4000 萬美元。僅進行季度比較，可以與——我認為有 3360 萬美元相比嗎？季度與季度之間的比較應該怎樣進行？

Yeah. So that number there is effectively the discount in terms of the mark on those assets. So I think it is $34 million this quarter. But if you think about those transitional loans, they're very short duration. So they are much less sensitive to moves in market interest rates. So I think we sort of think about that discount there as does buyer of these loans as a credit discount effectively.

是的。因此，這個數字其實就是這些資產的標記折扣。所以我認為本季是 3400 萬美元。但如果你考慮那些過渡貸款，你會發現它們的期限非常短。因此，它們對市場利率變動的敏感度要低得多。所以我認為我們就像這些貸款的購買者一樣，將這種折扣視為一種有效的信用折扣。

Okay. Got you. So you've worked through the vast majority of that this quarter. I got you.

好的。明白了。所以本季你已經完成了絕大部分工作。我接到你了。

So just to clarify, that discount has declined from, I think it was 40% or 45% to about 35%. So yes, we worked through a lot of it, but there's -- as I said in my prepared remarks, there's still some wood to chop over the next couple of quarters here.

所以需要澄清的是，折扣已經從 40% 或 45% 下降到 35% 左右。是的，我們已經解決了很多問題，但是——正如我在準備好的發言中所說的那樣，在接下來的幾個季度裡，仍然有一些事情需要解決。

Jason Weaver, JonesTrading.

傑森·韋弗，JonesTrading。

Sort of similar to Steve's there, with the buildup at Lima One, can you comment on the sort of distribution potential for new transitional loans if we were to see a bit more relief in rates ahead, whether you expect securitization financing or loan sales to become a more attractive option under that -- under those conditions?

有點類似於史蒂夫的說法，隨著利馬一號 (Lima One) 的建設，如果我們看到未來利率進一步下降，您能否評論一下新的過渡貸款的分配潛力，您是否預計證券化融資或貸款銷售在這種情況下會成為更具吸引力的選擇？

So on the -- we've been selling the rental loans. So those are the term loans, right? And part of that reasoning is when you originate $30 million or $20 million of those a month, it takes some time to get those ready to go in securitization. And taking on that spread risk for an extended period of time doesn't necessarily make sense when you have a bid on the other side that's very strong. So we have been taking advantage of that bid and selling those loans to third parties.

因此—我們一直在出售租賃貸款。這些就是定期貸款，對嗎？部分原因是，當你每月發放 3,000 萬美元或 2,000 萬美元時，需要一些時間才能準備好進行證券化。當對方的出價非常高時，長期承擔這種價差風險並不一定有意義。因此，我們一直在利用該出價並將這些貸款出售給第三方。

When you think about the shorter-term transitional loans, pretty much all of those loans are -- would be eligible to go into securitizations. And those have a revolving structure in nature. So as we sort of do more loans, right, they're really replacing old loans that are paying off. So we have four deals outstanding currently.

當您考慮短期過渡貸款時，幾乎所有這些貸款都有資格進行證券化。而這些本質上都具有旋轉結構。因此，當我們發放更多貸款時，它們實際上正在取代正在償還的舊貸款。因此，我們目前有四筆未完成的交易。

If we were to grow originations, which we expect to do, maybe you're taking from four deals to five or six outstanding. But you have to make sure that you have that volume in place to fill back the payoff that you're receiving on the other side. And in terms of the split, if you were to look at that breakdown, it's probably 45% to 50% ground up and then the rest being bridge and traditional Fix and Flip type loans.

如果我們要增加交易量（我們預計會這樣），那麼未完成的交易可能會從四筆增加到五到六筆。但你必須確保有足夠的資金來彌補你在另一邊收到的回報。就分割而言，如果你看一下細目，它可能是 45% 到 50% 的直接貸款，其餘的是過橋貸款和傳統的 Fix and Flip 類型的貸款。

And Jason, I'd just add one thing. The 30-year rental product is obviously more rate sensitive than the transitional loans. So lower short rates, steeper curve, it's likely that volume would pick up on that product.

傑森，我只想補充一點。30年期租賃產品顯然比過渡貸款對利率更為敏感。因此，短期利率越低，曲線越陡，該產品的交易量就有可能增加。

Got it. That's helpful. And I want to go back to in the prepared remarks, you mentioned the $24 million in loan sales and you expect to do more in the second half. Talk about the relative merits there. Is that a question of just coincidence you were able to find a buyer on that side? Or is that becoming actively more attractive than pursuing the entire sort of workout process?

知道了。這很有幫助。我想回到準備好的發言中，您提到了 2400 萬美元的貸款銷售額，並且您預計下半年會有更多銷售額。談論那裡的相對優點。您能在那邊找到買家，這只是巧合嗎？或者說，這比追求整個鍛鍊過程更有吸引力？

Yes. It's just a balance, right? It's -- you're currently -- you're working out loans and you would test the market to see where those bids are. If the bids are attractive, we would look to move on. If the workout is the best outcome, then we'll just work the loan out ourselves. So it's just a balance, and we sort of look at every loan individually to determine what's the best outcome.

是的。這只是一種平衡，對嗎？您目前正在處理貸款，並且會測試市場以了解這些出價在哪裡。如果出價有吸引力，我們會考慮繼續。如果重組是最好的結果，那麼我們就自己解決貸款問題。所以這只是一個平衡，我們會單獨審查每筆貸款以確定最佳結果。

(Operator Instructions) Eric Hagen, BTIG.

（操作員指示）Eric Hagen，BTIG。

On the single-family rental and single-family transitional loans, do you think developers are getting the rental income in like the exit that they expected? Or is there a lot of range around that outcome because of the execution risk is higher with tariffs and other higher input costs and such?

關於單戶住宅租賃和單戶住宅​​過渡貸款，您認為開發商是否能像他們預期的那樣獲得租金收入？或者由於關稅和其他較高的投入成本等導致執行風險較高，因此該結果是否存在很大的波動範圍？

In terms of the execution, right, a lot of our sort of development loans that we do are really -- they're build and flip to sell, not necessarily rent. So it's really -- the prices that they are achieving in the market are sort of matching the ARV set out in the appraisal. So we're not really seeing a ton of pressure in regards to that as it relates to tariffs. Could it potentially impact things online? Sure, but we have yet to see a material impact thus far, and we sort of track these month-to-month. So we're not really seeing that.

就執行而言，我們所做的許多開發貸款實際上都是——建造後轉售，而不一定是出租。所以實際上——他們在市場上實現的價格與評估中設定的 ARV 是一致的。因此，我們實際上並沒有看到與關稅相關的巨大壓力。這可能會對網路事物產生影響嗎？當然，但到目前為止我們還沒有看到實質的影響，我們只是逐月追蹤這些影響。所以我們實際上並沒有看到這一點。

In terms of the -- if we do have rents, we've seen -- they've been able to cover future debt service because these loans really get refinanced away from us. So that's what we're seeing. I mean we're -- that's what one would expect. We're not really seeing material pressure there either.

就我們所知，如果我們確實有租金，他們已經能夠支付未來的債務，因為這些貸款實際上是從我們這裡再融資的。這就是我們所看到的。我的意思是──這正是我們所期望的。我們實際上也沒有看到那裡的物質壓力。

Yes. Okay. That's helpful. You guys break out the loan book by origination year, which is really helpful. But which of the vintages would you maybe label as having higher relative risk versus lower risk just based on when they were originated?

是的。好的。這很有幫助。你們按發放年份列出了貸款帳簿，這確實很有幫助。但是，僅根據葡萄酒的產地，您可能會將哪些年份的葡萄酒標記為具有較高的相對風險，哪些年份的葡萄酒標記為具有較低的相對風險？

Yeah. I mean I'd say for -- if you look at the, say, multifamily book, the '23 vintage was probably tougher for us. I mean if you look at the other parts of the book, right, our LTVs are very low. So we're not really worried about losses there.

是的。我的意思是，如果你看一下多戶家庭書籍，那麼 23 年對我們來說可能更艱難。我的意思是，如果你看一下這本書的其他部分，你會發現我們的 LTV 非常低。所以我們並不真正擔心那裡的損失。

And when you think about on the non-QM side where we've seen some increased delinquencies, it's really, again, 95 times out of 100, we see delinquency, you see that property gets listed for sale and the borrower just sells it, and we don't really even have to go through any loss mit activities. So we're sort of -- we've been really vintage agnostic as it comes to those portfolios.

當您考慮非 QM 方面時，我們發現拖欠率有所增加，實際上，在 100 次中有 95 次，我們都會看到拖欠現象，您會看到房產被掛牌出售，而藉款人只是將其出售，我們實際上甚至不必經歷任何損失賠償活動。因此，對於這些投資組合，我們確實對年份持不可知論的態度。

Okay. If I could sneak in one more. I mean, is there a catalyst aside from lower interest rates, which could accelerate the call in the non-QM portfolio, the callability?

好的。如果我能再偷偷溜進去一次。我的意思是，除了降低利率之外，是否還有其他催化劑可以加速非 QM 投資組合的贖回能力？

I mean it's really an algebra exercise, Eric. So it's pretty easy for us to do. So lower rate environment, yes, theoretically, there are more deals that would be callable. In addition, with lower rates, our preferred Series C would reset to a lower coupon. So there's marginal benefits in a few different ways.

我的意思是這實際上是一個代數練習，埃里克。所以這對我們來說相當容易。因此，在較低的利率環境下，理論上，可以實現的交易更多。此外，隨著利率降低，我們優先考慮的 C 系列債券的票面利率將重置為較低。因此，從幾個不同的方面來說，都有邊際效益。

If you look at the bulk of the floating rate borrowing, it's for the most part, offset with swaps. So lower rate environment is not necessarily going to have a big impact there. But on the edges, lower rates are certainly helpful.

如果你看一下大部分的浮動利率借款，你會發現大部分都是透過掉期來抵銷。因此，較低的利率環境不一定會產生重大影響。但從邊緣來看，較低的利率肯定是有幫助的。

And I think, Eric, just to add, there could be a deal with respect to the call rights that's maybe out of the money. But if you think about the deleveraging embedded in some of those callable deals, it doesn't necessarily have to be a lower rate to reissue it to still increase the ROE of the portfolio because you're unlocking a lot of capital with the relever.

艾瑞克，我想補充一點，關於看漲權，可能會有一筆交易，而這筆交易可能是沒錢的。但是，如果你考慮到一些可贖回交易中嵌入的去槓桿作用，那麼重新發行債券並不一定需要較低的利率才能增加投資組合的淨資產收益率，因為你可以透過重新發行債券釋放大量資本。

We reached the end of our question-and-answer session. I'd like to turn the floor back over for any further or closing comments.

我們的問答環節已經結束。我想再次請大家發表進一步的評論或結束語。

Thank you, everyone, for your interest in MFA Financial. We look forward to speaking with you again in November when we announce our third quarter results.

感謝大家對 MFA Financial 的關注。我們期待在 11 月公佈第三季業績時再次與您交談。

Thank you. That does conclude today's teleconference and webcast. You may disconnect your line at this time, and have a wonderful day. We thank you for your participation today.

謝謝。今天的電話會議和網路直播到此結束。此時您可以斷開線路，祝您有美好的一天。我們感謝您今天的參與。