Liberty Global Ltd (LBTYK) 2023 Q3 法說會逐字稿

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, thank you for standing by. Welcome to Liberty Global's Third Quarter 2023 Investor Call. This call and the associated webcast are the property of Liberty Global and any redistribution, retransmission or rebroadcast of this call or webcast in any form without the expressed written consent of Liberty Global is strictly prohibited. (Operator Instructions) Today's formal presentation materials can be found under the Investor Relations section of Liberty Global's website at libertyglobal.com. After today's formal presentation, instructions will be given for a question-and-answer session.

早安，女士們先生們，謝謝你們的支持。歡迎參加 Liberty Global 2023 年第三季投資者電話會議。本次電話會議及相關網路廣播均屬於 Liberty Global 的財產，未經 Liberty Global 明確書面同意，嚴禁以任何形式重新分發、轉播或轉播本次電話會議或網路廣播。 （操作員說明） 今天的正式簡報資料可以在 Liberty Global 網站 libertyglobal.com 的投資者關係部分找到。今天的正式演講結束後，將進行問答環節。

Page 2 of the slides details the company's safe harbor statements regarding forward-looking statements. Today's presentation may also include forward-looking statements within the meaning of the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995, including the company's expectations with respect to its outlook and future growth prospects and other information and statements that are not historical facts.

投影片的第 2 頁詳細介紹了公司有關前瞻性陳述的安全港聲明。今天的簡報還可能包含 1995 年《私人證券訴訟改革法案》含義內的前瞻性陳述，包括公司對其前景和未來成長前景的預期以及非歷史事實的其他資訊和陳述。

These forward-looking statements involve certain risks that could cause actual results to differ materially from those expressed or implied by these statements. These risks include those detailed in Liberty Global's filings with the Securities and Exchange Commission, including its most recently filed forms 10-Q and 10-K as amended. Liberty Global disclaims any obligations to update any of these forward-looking statements to reflect any change in its expectations or in the conditions on which any such statement is based.

這些前瞻性陳述涉及某些風險，可能導致實際結果與這些陳述明示或暗示的結果有重大差異。這些風險包括 Liberty Global 向美國證券交易委員會提交的文件中詳細說明的風險，包括最近提交的經修訂的 10-Q 和 10-K 表格。 Liberty Global 不承擔更新任何這些前瞻性陳述以反映其期望或任何此類陳述所依據的條件的任何變更的義務。

I would now like to turn the call over to Mr. Fries.

我現在想把電話轉給弗里斯先生。

Thanks, operator, and welcome, everyone to our third quarter results call. Charlie and I have tried to shorten our prepared remarks a bit to leave more time for questions. So I'm going to jump right in on Slide 3 with what we think are the 3 key points, the key takeaways that characterize both the quarter and our strategic position today. Number one, you'll see that our operating and financial results are generally positive, especially in our largest market, the U.K., where volumes picked up in the quarter and growth is steady year-over-year. But while mobile and B2B continued to perform well, our fixed B2C business remains challenged.

謝謝運營商，歡迎大家參加我們的第三季業績電話會議。查理和我試圖縮短我們準備好的發言時間，以便留出更多時間提問。因此，我將直接在投影片 3 上介紹我們認為的 3 個關鍵點，以及體現本季和我們今天的策略地位的關鍵要點。第一，您會發現我們的營運和財務表現總體上是積極的，特別是在我們最大的市場英國，該市場的銷量在本季度有所回升，並且同比增長穩定。儘管行動和 B2B 繼續表現良好，但我們的固定 B2C 業務仍然面臨挑戰。

As we've discussed in the past, despite good broadband revenue growth, we continue to feel the impact from a combination of broadband competition, cost of living challenges, and secular headwinds in voice and video. Like our peers, we've been implementing a number of strategies to address the fixed B2C business including price increases, digital platform development, converged bundles, broadband speed boost and an investment in our networks. Long term, these strategies will work, but we anticipate continued pressure going into next year.

正如我們過去所討論的，儘管寬頻收入成長良好，但我們仍然感受到寬頻競爭、生活成本挑戰以及語音和視訊領域的長期阻力所帶來的影響。與我們的同行一樣，我們一直在實施多種策略來解決固定 B2C 業務，包括價格上漲、數位平台開發、融合捆綁、寬頻速度提升以及網路投資。從長遠來看，這些策略將發揮作用，但我們預計明年將繼續面臨壓力。

Here's the second big takeaway. While we continue to maintain a levered balance sheet, in this environment, it's critical to remind folks just how strong our capital structure is with no material maturities for 5 years, siloed and fixed rate credit pools and a significant cash position. At the same time, we've allocated over $14 billion to our buyback program since the beginning of 2017. And if you include our announced increase today, we will have bought back nearly 60% of our shares over that time frame, which leads me to the third takeaway, something we stress on every call, but needs repeating. We are absolutely 100% committed to bridging the value gap in our stock price and delivering that value to shareholders. We believe our narrative and strategy are clear and the inherent equity value of our core FMC operations is substantial.

這是第二個要點。雖然我們繼續維持槓桿資產負債表，但在這種環境下，重要的是要提醒人們，我們的資本結構有多強大，五年內沒有重大到期日，孤立的固定利率信貸池以及大量的現金頭寸。同時，自 2017 年初以來，我們已為回購計畫分配了超過 140 億美元。如果算上我們今天宣布的增持，我們將在這段時間內回購近 60% 的股票，這讓我第三個重點，我們在每次通話中都會強調，但需要重複。我們絕對 100% 致力於縮小股價的價值差距並向股東提供價值。我們相信我們的敘述和策略是明確的，我們核心 FMC 業務的內在股權價值是巨大的。

But despite our long track record of crystallizing that value and allocating most of that capital to shareholders, the market seems to be in a wait-and-see mode and not really appreciating our own sense of urgency. We get that. And in order to clearly communicate our plans, we decided to extend our upcoming Q4 results call to provide a more detailed strategic update on the concrete steps we are taking market by market and with our ventures portfolio. And Charlie and I are going to provide a bit more color on all of these core points in the slides that follow, beginning with some operating highlights on Slide 4, which shows broadband and postpaid mobile ads for our FMC markets over the last 5 quarters. By the way, you'll find more detail market by market in the appendix.

但是，儘管我們長期以來一直致力於將這一價值具體化並將大部分資本分配給股東，但市場似乎處於觀望狀態，並沒有真正意識到我們自己的緊迫感。我們明白了。為了清楚傳達我們的計劃，我們決定延長即將舉行的第四季度業績電話會議，以就我們逐個市場和風險投資組合採取的具體步驟提供更詳細的策略更新。查理和我將在接下來的幻燈片中對所有這些核心點進行更多介紹，首先是幻燈片4 上的一些營運亮點，該幻燈片顯示了過去5 個季度我們的FMC 市場的寬頻和後付費移動廣告。順便說一句，您將在附錄中找到每個市場的更多詳細資訊。

I'll start with Virgin Media O2 in the top left, we'll see that postpaid mobile return to growth with 50,000 net adds after 2 quarters of losses, and that was fueled by our VOLT bundle and of course, our dual brand strategy. And despite a softer broadband market in Q3 with estimated market sales down 5%, VMO2 share of gross adds was up and together with more normalized churn following our double-digit price rises last quarter, we delivered 41,000 net broadband ads, our strongest result in the last 7 quarters. Now with average customer speeds 5x a national average and 1 gig available across 100% of our footprint, we expect these trends to continue, supported over time by our aggressive fiber upgrade and expansion plans.

我將從左上角的Virgin Media O2 開始，我們將看到後付費行動業務在經歷兩個季度的虧損後，將恢復成長，淨增加50,000 台，這得益於我們的VOLT 捆綁包，當然還有我們的雙品牌策略。儘管第三季寬頻市場疲軟，估計市場銷售額下降5%，但VMO2 在總增加量中所佔的份額有所上升，加上上季度價格兩位數上漲後的正常化流失，我們投放了41,000個網路寬頻廣告，這是我們今年最強勁的業績。過去 7 個季度。現在，平均客戶速度是全國平均速度的5 倍，並且我們100% 的覆蓋範圍內提供1 兆瓦，我們預計這些趨勢將持續下去，隨著時間的推移，我們積極的光纖升級和擴展計劃將得到支持。

And moving to Sunrise Postpaid mobile ads were steady at 29,000 in the quarter, with both our Sunrise and flanker brand, Yallo, performing well despite some price-related churn. But we continue to experience tougher broadband results in Switzerland following our recent price increase in a challenging gross add market. A loss of 7,000 subs was also impacted by our structured migration of UPC subscribers to the Sunrise brand. The good news here is that we see improving trends quarter-over-quarter and light at the end of the tunnel. By year end, for example, we'll have migrated nearly half the UPC base and importantly, the most value-sensitive segment of that base.

轉向 Sunrise 後付費行動廣告在本季度穩定在 29,000 個，儘管出現了一些與價格相關的流失，但我們的 Sunrise 和側翼品牌 Yallo 均表現良好。但隨著我們最近在充滿挑戰的總增值市場中提高價格，我們在瑞士的寬頻業績繼續變得更加艱難。我們將 UPC 訂戶結構化遷移到 Sunrise 品牌，也影響了 7,000 名訂戶的流失。好消息是，我們看到趨勢逐季改善，隧道盡頭出現光明。例如，到年底，我們將遷移近一半的 UPC 基礎，重要的是，該基礎中對價值最敏感的部分。

The Belgium market remains relatively rational with price rises offsetting inflationary pressure, but Telenet continued to be impacted by a reduced marketing spend as it managed through some IT issues in Q3. As a result, both postpaid and broadband adds were negative in the quarter. On a positive note, though, September saw a recovery in subscriber volumes and the marketing machine has ramped back up in Q4. Strategically, we are really excited about the formal launch of Wyre, our 70%-owned network JV that serves Telenet and Orange, and we'll have roughly 70% network utilization. Of course, Wyre is going to build fiber to just under 80% of Flemish homes over time. It's worth mentioning, though, and we always anticipated optimizing CapEx spend in this NetCo. So we welcome the recent comments by BIPT regarding potential fiber network cooperation in Belgium and we're working to understand how this could further improve our already strong economic model for Wyre and Telenet.

比利時市場仍然相對理性，價格上漲抵消了通膨壓力，但 Telenet 在第三季解決了一些 IT 問題後，繼續受到行銷支出減少的影響。因此，本季後付費和寬頻增量均為負值。不過，從正面的方面來看，9 月用戶數量有所回升，行銷機器在第四季有所回升。從策略上講，我們對 Wyre 的正式推出感到非常興奮，Wyre 是我們擁有 70% 股權的網路合資企業，為 Telenet 和 Orange 提供服務，我們將擁有約 70% 的網路利用率。當然，隨著時間的推移，Wyre 將為近 80% 的佛蘭德家庭建造光纖。不過，值得一提的是，我們一直期望優化該網路公司的資本支出。因此，我們歡迎 BIPT 最近關於比利時潛在光纖網路合作的評論，我們正在努力了解這如何進一步改善我們本已強大的 Wyre 和 Telenet 經濟模式。

And then finally, the Dutch market remains competitive for KPN continues to be aggressive on front book pricing. Our strategy has been to prioritize value over volume, which resulted in another quarter of broadband losses, but importantly, solid growth in both fixed B2C revenue and ARPU. In addition to broadband speed boost and some select front book propositions, we continue to differentiate our entertainment service in Holland with unique offerings like Champions League Football and an exclusive deal with the new SkyShowtime service. Meanwhile, VodafoneZiggo continues to grow postpaid mobile ads supporting our tenth consecutive quarter of mobile service revenue growth, and we just announced a 10% mobile price rise from October, which should support the full year outlook as well.

最後，荷蘭市場仍然具有競爭力，因為 KPN 在前台定價方面繼續積極進取。我們的策略是優先考慮價值而不是數量，這導致了寬頻另一個季度的損失，但重要的是，固定 B2C 收入和 ARPU 都實現了穩健成長。除了寬頻速度提升和一些精選的前台建議之外，我們還繼續透過冠軍聯賽足球等獨特產品和新 SkyShowtime 服務的獨家協議，使我們在荷蘭的娛樂服務脫穎而出。同時，VodafoneZiggo 繼續成長後付費行動廣告，支持我們的行動服務收入連續第十個季度成長，而且我們剛剛宣布從 10 月開始行動價格上漲 10%，這也應該支持全年前景。

Now I'll close on Slide 5 with a teaser for what we'll be sharing with you on our next call, namely the core initiatives that will drive value creation moving forward and shrink the gap in our stock price. That strategy falls into 3 pillars: beginning with the most significant, and that's our national FMC champions. I have already provided an operating and strategic update by market, and Charlie will round out the financial picture. But suffice it to say, that we're squarely focused on ensuring that these businesses remain clear market leaders with the scale, talent, products, infrastructure and cash flow margins to support strong equity returns in what we believe are Europe's best markets. Now if you give full credit to our ventures platform and cash, you get to roughly $16 to $17 per share, that's our current stock price, which means the entirety of our proportionate interest in these 85 million fixed and mobile subs, $25 billion of aggregate revenue and $9.4 billion of aggregate EBITDA as well as the $1.6 billion of distributable cash flow we'll generate at Liberty Global this year is essentially valued at 0.

現在，我將以幻燈片 5 的預告片結束我們將在下次電話會議上與您分享的內容，即推動價值創造向前發展並縮小股價差距的核心舉措。這個策略分為三個支柱：從最重要的支柱開始，那就是我們的全國 FMC 冠軍。我已經提供了按市場劃分的營運和策略更新，查理將完善財務狀況。但我只想說，我們的重點是確保這些企業在規模、人才、產品、基礎設施和現金流利潤方面保持明顯的市場領導者地位，以支持我們認為歐洲最好的市場的強勁股權回報。現在，如果您充分信任我們的創投平台和現金，您將獲得約每股16 至17 美元，這是我們目前的股價，這意味著我們在這8,500 萬固定和行動用戶中的全部比例權益，總計250 億美元收入和 94 億美元的 EBITDA 總額以及今年 Liberty Global 產生的 16 億美元的可分配現金流的價值基本上為 0。

Here's another way to look at it. if you simply add 1 EBITDA multiple to our current trading values, which would be about 6.5x that 1 additional multiple and apply that to our proportionate EBITDA in these operations of roughly $5.6 billion, and that's net of our corporate cost, you get to $30 per share. Now anyone can do that math. It's all public knowledge, but sometimes it's helpful to lay it out plainly. So what are we doing to help bridge this gap? You should assume we're working on multiple alternatives, many of which will be easier to achieve once we redomicile the (inaudible) later this month and all of which will provide greater detail on when we get together next.

這是另一種看待它的方式。如果您簡單地將1 EBITDA 倍數添加到我們當前的交易價值（這大約是1 個額外倍數的6.5 倍），並將其應用於我們在這些業務中約56 億美元的比例EBITDA，這已扣除我們的公司成本，您將獲得30 美元每股。現在任何人都可以做這個數學。這些都是公共知識，但有時將其清楚地說明是有幫助的。那麼我們正在做什麼來幫助彌合這一差距呢？你應該假設我們正在研究多種替代方案，一旦我們在本月晚些時候重新安置（聽不清楚），其中許多方案將更容易實現，所有這些都將為我們下次聚會時提供更多細節。

The second pillar includes a strategic moves we're making in our ventures portfolio, including our increasing exposure to infrastructure investments like European data centers, energy services and fiber networks. The goal here is simple, take advantage of our existing asset base, market knowledge and deal expertise to create and/or invest in unicorn or multibillion-dollar businesses, AtlasEdge, our edge data center business is the best example of this. And while the tech vertical continues to return cash and invest small amounts and scale up companies that are strategically aligned with our core operations, we're taking a hard look at our media and content portfolio.

第二個支柱包括我們在創投組合中採取的策略性舉措，包括增加對歐洲資料中心、能源服務和光纖網路等基礎設施投資的投資。這裡的目標很簡單，利用我們現有的資產基礎、市場知識和交易專業知識來創建和/或投資獨角獸或數十億美元的企業，AtlasEdge，我們的邊緣資料中心業務就是最好的例子。雖然科技垂直領域繼續返還現金、進行少量投資並擴大與我們核心業務策略一致的公司規模，但我們正在認真審視我們的媒體和內容組合。

As you know, we're well underway with the sale of All3Media, and we just announced the sale of a partial stake in VMO2's Tower Holdings that should return $435 million to the joint venture and ultimately to shareholders. Conservatively, and including the 2 deals I just mentioned, we're targeting around $500 million to $1 billion of proceeds to the parent company from asset sales by H1 2024. The third pillar in our value creation strategy is well understood by now. We remain committed to our levered equity model, characterized by smart debt structures and an aggressive buyback program, which has only gotten more potent with our stock trading off this year. We started, for example, with a commitment to buy 10% of the shares this year, and we raised that to 15% on our last call, and we're now targeting between 18% and 19%. There are a few, if any, companies buying back nearly 20% of their stock every year and have historically lower arguably, ridiculously low prices.

如您所知，我們正在順利出售 All3Media，並且剛剛宣佈出售 VMO2 旗下 Tower Holdings 的部分股權，這將為合資企業並最終為股東帶來 4.35 億美元的回報。保守地說，包括我剛才提到的兩筆交易，我們的目標是到2024 年上半年透過資產出售向母公司提供約5 億至10 億美元的收益。目前，我們價值創造策略的第三個支柱已被充分理解。我們仍然致力於我們的槓桿股權模式，其特點是智慧債務結構和積極的回購計劃，隨著我們今年的股票交易，這種模式只會變得更加有效。例如，我們一開始承諾今年購買 10% 的股份，並在上次電話會議中將其提高到 15%，現在我們的目標是 18% 到 19%。有少數公司（如果有的話）每年都會回購近 20% 的股票，股價處於歷史低位，可以說是低得離譜。

It's probably also worth mentioning, as I close here that everyone on this management team, myself, especially holds a sizable equity stake in our company. My stock position is public knowledge. I own around 1.5% of the economic value, just under 10% of the vote and nearly 15 million options, pretty much all of which are currently out of the money. So I am motivated, the team is motivated and the Board is motivated to get this done.

也許也值得一提的是，正如我在此結束的那樣，這個管理團隊中的每個人，尤其是我自己，都持有我們公司的大量股權。我的股票部位是眾所周知的。我擁有大約 1.5% 的經濟價值、略低於 10% 的投票權和近 1500 萬個選擇權，目前幾乎所有選擇權都處於價外狀態。因此，我、團隊和董事會都充滿動力去完成這項工作。

Over to you, Charlie.

交給你了，查理。

Thanks, Mike. The next slide sets out the quarterly revenue and EBITDA for each of our key operating companies. For the quarter, Virgin Media O2 on a reported basis delivered 7.1% revenue growth. But excluding the impact of nexfibre construction revenues, Virgin Media O2 revenue growth was 1.2% with our price actions supporting growth and service revenues. Revenues were also supported by a one-off benefit to a related party contract change in the quarter to the amount of $48 million. Now this compares to a one-off benefit in the prior year at Q3 around $35 million. VodafoneZiggo delivered stable revenues in Q3 as the Dutch business registered its tenth consecutive quarter of MSR growth, which was offset by a decline in B2B mobile.

謝謝，麥克。下一張投影片列出了我們每個主要營運公司的季度收入和 EBITDA。據報道，本季 Virgin Media O2 的營收成長了 7.1%。但排除 nexfibre 建設收入的影響，Virgin Media O2 收入成長了 1.2%，我們的價格行動支持了成長和服務收入。本季關聯方合約變更帶來的一次性收益也為收入提供了 4,800 萬美元的支撐。相比之下，去年第三季的一次性收益約為 3,500 萬美元。 VodafoneZiggo 在第三季度實現了穩定的收入，這家荷蘭企業的 MSR 連續第十個季度實現增長，但 B2B 行動業務的下滑抵消了這一增長。

Despite pressure on fixed volumes, we also returned to fixed revenue growth. And Belgium delivered stable revenues as the impact of the mid-June price adjustment was offset by declines in production and advertising revenues. Switzerland saw further stabilization in revenues with the July price rise of 4%, supporting a recovery in fixed revenues.

儘管固定銷售面臨壓力，但我們也恢復了固定收入成長。比利時的收入穩定，六月中旬價格調整的影響被製作和廣告收入的下降所抵消。瑞士收入進一步穩定，7 月價格上漲 4%，支撐了固定收入的復甦。

Moving on to our Q3 adjusted EBITDA performance, Virgin Media O2 delivered a sequential improvement in EBITDA of 5.1% growth despite $28 million of OpEx cost to capture in the quarter. Excluding the nexfibre construction contribution, EBITDA grew 4.5% in the quarter. And EBITDA growth was supported by our pricing actions and synergy realization as well as the related party contract change, as I mentioned earlier. VodafoneZiggo saw an EBITDA decline of 4.1% as cost inflation headwinds from both energy and wages continue to weigh on performance. And Telenet reported an EBITDA decline of 2.6%, driven by cost inflation headwinds along with temporarily higher outsourced call center costs. Sunrise saw EBITDA declined by 3.4% with higher direct costs and continued headwinds from the UPC right pricing activity impacting the quarter.

談到第三季調整後的 EBITDA 業績，儘管本季需要支付 2,800 萬美元的營運支出，但 Virgin Media O2 的 EBITDA 環比增長了 5.1%。不包括 nexfibre 建設貢獻，本季 EBITDA 成長 4.5%。正如我之前提到的，EBITDA 的成長得到了我們的定價行動、協同效應的實現以及關聯方合約變更的支持。由於能源和工資帶來的成本通膨阻力繼續影響業績，VodafoneZiggo 的 EBITDA 下降了 4.1%。 Telenet 報告稱，由於成本通膨不利以及外包呼叫中心成本暫時較高，其 EBITDA 下降了 2.6%。 Sunrise 的 EBITDA 下降了 3.4%，原因是直接成本上升以及 UPC 正確定價活動對本季造成的持續不利影響。

The Swiss business continues to work through the right price in the back book to set the basis for future growth. Turning to capital allocation on the next slide. We continue to have a strong liquidity profile and delivered capital intensity in line with the respective full year guidance ranges across all of our core markets. On a reported basis, we delivered distributable cash flow of $863 million during the first 3 quarters of 2023, including $815 million of distributions from VMO2 from our share of the recapitalization and distributions of $41 million from VodafoneZiggo. We continue to execute our buyback strategy, having repurchased 15% of the shares year-to-date to reduce our share count to just under 400 million. Finally, we continue to hold a substantial consolidated cash balance of $3.5 billion topped up by a further liquidity of $1.5 billion from our revolving credit facilities.

這家瑞士企業繼續在後台研究正確的價格，為未來的成長奠定基礎。轉向下一張投影片的資本配置。我們繼續擁有強勁的流動性狀況，並按照我們所有核心市場各自的全年指導範圍提供資本強度。根據報告，我們在2023 年前3 季度交付的可分配現金流為8.63 億美元，其中包括來自VMO2 的8.15 億美元的分配（來自我們在資本重組中的份額）以及來自VodafoneZiggo 的4100 萬美元的分配。我們繼續執行回購策略，今年迄今已回購 15% 的股份，將股份數量減少至略低於 4 億股。最後，我們繼續持有 35 億美元的大量綜合現金餘額，並透過循環信貸安排進一步提供 15 億美元的流動性。

On the next slide, I wanted to provide an update on our debt position. Our debt across all silos is fixed to maturity with an average tenure of around 6 years and we fully fixed all our interest rates and swapped any currency mismatches. So all in, our blended fully swapped cost of debt at consolidated level today sits at 3.5%, 3.9% of VodafoneZiggo and 5% of VMO2, and we continue to proactively manage our capital structure, recently completing 2 VMO2 refinancings, a $500 million tap on term loan Y and a EUR 700 million tap on term loan Z. The proceeds will be used to further extend our debt windows whilst continuing to optimize our all-in cost of debt. And it's important to note that we can extend the maturity of our financings but still benefit from the preexisting swap cost to original maturity, which is, of course, much lower than the current market.

在下一張投影片上，我想提供有關我們債務狀況的最新資訊。我們所有的債務都是固定到期的，平均期限約為 6 年，我們完全固定了所有利率並交換了任何貨幣錯配。總而言之，我們今天合併水準上的混合完全互換債務成本分別為VodafoneZiggo 的3.5%、VodafoneZiggo 的3.9% 和VMO2 的5%，我們將繼續積極管理我們的資本結構，最近完成了2 筆VMO2 再融資，總額為5 億美元定期貸款 Y 和 7 億歐元定期貸款 Z。所得款項將用於進一步延長我們的債務窗口，同時繼續優化我們的總債務成本。值得注意的是，我們可以延長融資期限，但仍然受益於先前存在的原始到期掉期成本，當然，這比當前市場要低得多。

Now that Telenet is 100% owned by Liberty Global, Liberty Global intends to align Telenet's capital structure with Liberty Global's policy and revise it to 4 to 5x adjusted EBITDA. Lastly, we're in the process of extending all our revolving credit facilities to 2029 on comparable terms as they are today, which further underpins our strong liquidity profile.

現在，Telenet 由 Liberty Global 100% 擁有，Liberty Global 打算將 Telenet 的資本結構與 Liberty Global 的政策保持一致，並將其調整為 4 至 5 倍調整後 EBITDA。最後，我們正在將所有循環信貸額度延長至 2029 年，條件與目前相當，這進一步鞏固了我們強勁的流動性狀況。

Turning to our guidance slide. VMO2 are updating their revenue guidance from revenue growth to stable revenue for the year. This decision is driven by continuing pressures on the fixed business as a result of the household continuing to optimize their spending habits and a softer performance in handset sales year-to-date, which is probably related to the same issue. Excluding VMO2's revenue guidance, we're actually reconfirming all our other guidance metrics for VMO2 as well as across each of our key operating companies. And we're also reconfirming our group guidance of $1.6 billion of distributable cash flow, and this is based on the FX rates in February when we gave our original guidance.

轉向我們的指導幻燈片。 VMO2 正在將今年的收入指引從收入成長更新為穩定收入。這項決定是由於家庭持續優化消費習慣以及年初至今手機銷售表現疲軟而導致固定業務持續面臨壓力，這可能與同一問題有關。除了 VMO2 的收入指導之外，我們實際上正在重新確認 VMO2 以及我們每個主要營運公司的所有其他指導指標。我們還重新確認了 16 億美元的可分配現金流的集團指導，這是基於 2 月份我們給出最初指導時的外匯匯率。

And with that, operator, over to questions.

接線員，接下來是提問。

(Operator Instructions) The first question comes from the line of Robert J. Grindle with Deutsche Bank.

（操作員說明） 第一個問題來自德意志銀行的 Robert J. Grindle。

(inaudible).

（聽不清楚）。

Robert, Robert, Robert, we're having a hard time. Having a hard time hearing your question, there seems to be somebody in the background talking over you. Could you start over maybe in a quieter spot? Or -- just want to make sure we get your question.

羅伯特，羅伯特，羅伯特，我們過得很艱難。很難聽清楚你的問題，似乎有人在後台對你說話。你能在一個更安靜的地方重新開始嗎？或者——只是想確保我們明白你的問題。

I'm sorry, Mike, can you hear me now?

對不起，麥克，你現在聽得到我說話嗎？

That's better.

這樣更好。

Okay, sorry about that. My question was about nexfibre in the U.K. Are we at run rate yet on (inaudible) there was a big increase in the first -- in this last quarter. And nexfibre homes, are they being marketed yet to VMO2 customers? And what's the early experience (inaudible).

好吧，對此感到抱歉。我的問題是關於英國的 nexfibre，我們是否達到運行速度（聽不清楚），在上個季度的第一個季度有大幅成長。 nexfibre 住宅是否已向 VMO2 客戶推銷？早期的經歷是什麼（聽不清楚）。

Yes. Andrea, as the Chairman of nexfibre, do you want to take that?

是的。 Andrea，身為 nexfibre 的董事長，您願意接受嗎？

Yes. Thanks, Mike. Hey, everyone. It's Andrea here. So in terms of run rate, I would say, as you've seen from the numbers, it's stepping up, and we're not quite at run rate, but we will be by the end of the fourth quarter. So I would expect that would -- you'll see that annualized through next year. In terms of the VMO2 selling on, that was launched a few months ago. It's early days, but yes, we still retain our confidence in the long-term projections on that.

是的。謝謝，麥克。嘿大家。這是安德里亞。因此，就運行率而言，我想說，正如您從數字中看到的那樣，它正在加快，我們還沒有達到運行率，但我們將在第四季度末達到運行率。所以我預計到明年你都會看到這個數字。就VMO2的銷售情況而言，它是幾個月前推出的。現在還處於早期階段，但是我們仍然對長期預測充滿信心。

And then, Lutz, you have been marketing -- yes, the second question, Andrea, maybe Lutz can tackle this was are we marketing nexfibre homes and certainly, as we have with Lightning, we are marketing greenfield homes. Lutz, do you want to talk about that experience, please?

然後，盧茨，你一直在行銷——是的，第二個問題，安德里亞，也許盧茨可以解決這個問題，我們是在行銷nexfibre房屋，當然，就像我們在閃電網絡上一樣，我們正在行銷綠地房屋。 Lutz，你想談談那次經驗嗎？

Yes. We have, right, with nexfibre launched our first fiber proposition, right? So fully across broadband and video and we are selling this and we are ramping this up. And our early experience is similar to the Lighting penetration. So there's no reason to believe that we won't get to similar numbers.

是的。我們已經與 nexfibre 一起推出了我們的第一個纖維提案，對吧？完全跨寬頻和視頻，我們正在銷售它，並且我們正在加強。而我們早期的經驗與Lightning滲透類似。因此，沒有理由相信我們不會得到類似的數字。

The next question comes from the line of Polo Tang with UBS.

下一個問題來自 Polo Tang 與 UBS 的對話。

Just 2 quick ones. Firstly, in terms of your share buyback, it's been targeted at the nonvoting K Line of shares, but would you consider buying back the A voting line of shares after your change of Domicile to Bermuda. If I look at the spread between the A and K lines of stock, it's quite wide. It's 8%. So can you remind us what your criteria are for choosing 1 line of stock for the buyback versus another. And I just had a follow-up in terms of your comment about commitment to shrink the value gap in terms of your stock. In your view, what is driving the value gap? And what do you see as the optimal level of leverage in the company, so given where interest rates are currently, do you think you get more credit in the share price if you have lower levels of leverage and potentially did less in terms of buybacks?

就2個快的。首先，就您的股票回購而言，一直針對的是無投票權的K線股票，但是您在將住所變更為百慕達後，是否會考慮回購A投票線的股票？如果我看一下股票的 A 線和 K 線之間的價差，它是相當寬的。是8%。那麼您能否提醒我們，您選擇一隻股票進行回購而不是另一隻股票的標準是什麼？我剛剛對您關於縮小股票價值差距的承諾的評論進行了跟進。在您看來，是什麼導致了價值差距？您認為公司的最佳槓桿水平是多少，考慮到目前的利率水平，如果您的槓桿水平較低並且在回購方面可能做得較少，您是否認為您會在股價中獲得更多信用？

Thanks, Polo. Listen, on the buyback question, our policy has been historically to buy Ks over As, principally because they have traded, until more recently, at a discount. And we don't believe either shares should trade different than the other because even though one is voting and one is nonvoting, we've always viewed them as economically equal. The reason for historically buying Ks over As was to try to maintain the liquidity of the As since there were fewer of them, and there are still fewer of them so that we have 2 healthy trading markets. Of course, that's changed more recently. And I think we will look and should look at changing that policy. You're right. And the variance has been only more recently a large one, and so we are refocused on it. I think if we started to buy As and not Ks, that gap would narrow. So it's somewhat self-fulfilling. We have a bid out there for Ks and there's somebody selling As, you're going to have that widen if we start buying As, it comes back into place.

謝謝，波羅。聽著，關於回購問題，從歷史上看，我們的政策一直是購買 K 而不是 As，主要是因為直到最近，它們的交易價格仍然存在折扣。我們認為任何一種股票的交易方式都不應該與另一種股票不同，因為即使一種股票有投票權，另一種股票沒有投票權，我們始終認為它們在經濟上是平等的。歷史上購買 Ks 而不是 As 的原因是試圖維持 As 的流動性，因為 As 的數量較少，而且它們的數量仍然較少，因此我們有 2 個健康的交易市場。當然，最近情況發生了變化。我認為我們將會並且應該考慮改變這項政策。你說得對。而且直到最近，方差才變得很大，因此我們重新關注它。我認為如果我們開始購買 As 而不是 Ks，那麼差距將會縮小。所以這在某種程度上是自我實現的。我們對 Ks 有出價，有人出售 As，如果我們開始購買 As，價格就會擴大，它會回到原位。

But -- so I think that's -- it's a good point. And I think Bermuda would potentially give us some alternative options to look at that. So you should assume going into '24, we'll look at that very closely. On leverage, we think the business, as we've described in our remarks is really stable that our balance sheet, both with the liquidity we have, the maturity schedules we have, the fixed rate nature of our balance sheet is unique. If you look at our peer group. And so we don't think there is an issue with leverage today. It doesn't mean investors see it that way. That's just how we see it as the folks running and operating the company, day in and day out, to shrink the value gap, maybe you asked what is driving the value gap.

但是——所以我認為——這是一個很好的觀點。我認為百慕達可能會給我們一些替代選擇來解決這個問題。所以你應該假設進入 24 年，我們會非常仔細地研究這個問題。在槓桿方面，我們認為，正如我們在評論中所描述的那樣，我們的資產負債表非常穩定，無論是我們擁有的流動性、我們的到期計劃還是我們資產負債表的固定利率性質都是獨一無二的。如果你看看我們的同儕群體。因此，我們認為今天的槓桿不存在問題。這並不意味著投資者這麼看。這就是我們對公司的看法，日復一日地經營和經營公司，以縮小價值差距，也許你會問是什麼推動了價值差距。

I think it's the things that I mentioned to some extent, right? It is -- we've talked for some time about the ability to deliver private market value or transactions that would get closer to private market value. The sale of Poland, a couple of years back, was the last time we did that at 9 times. And I think people are in a wait-and-see mode as to what we do next. And that's fair enough because market has the right to demand action, but we take action when we think it makes sense and on the basis that we think it makes sense.

我想這在某種程度上就是我提到的事情，對吧？我們已經討論了一段時間關於提供私人市場價值或更接近私人市場價值的交易的能力。幾年前出售波蘭是我們最後一次這樣做，當時有 9 次。我認為人們對我們下一步做什麼持觀望態度。這很公平，因為市場有權要求採取行動，但我們在我們認為有意義時並在我們認為有意義的基礎上採取行動。

In the call, we have in a few months, we will dig deeper into the sort of things that we're considering. And as I've said in the past, nothing is off the table, meaning that we will look at any and all structures, ideas to shrink that gap because we're heavily motivated to shrink it and we believe it's an anomaly here. And so I think we just need to get the energy back in the narrative, and we're not going to get into that today, all the things that we're working on because I don't want to get ahead of ourselves, but when we move to Bermuda end of the month, I think that's going to open up some opportunities. And I think, more importantly, stable markets, continued performance of our businesses and a keen eye to the sorts of transactions that we could pursue here will be illuminating.

在幾個月後的電話會議中，我們將更深入地探討我們正在考慮的事情。正如我過去所說，沒有什麼是不可能的，這意味著我們將研究任何和所有結構、想法來縮小這一差距，因為我們非常有動力縮小它，並且我們相信這是一個異常情況。所以我認為我們只需要在敘述中重新獲得能量，今天我們不會討論我們正在做的所有事情，因為我不想超越自己，但是當我們月底搬到百慕達時，我認為這將帶來一些機會。我認為，更重要的是，穩定的市場、我們業務的持續表現以及對我們可以在這裡進行的交易類型的敏銳關注將具有啟發性。

Leverage might change into some of those transactions, I suppose. If I were to say, for example, hey, we're going to list an asset, you would rightly say, well, that's tough to do at 5x. So we might consider ways of delevering into value-creating transactions. But absent that, I don't see us delevering. I think the business is solid and steady and we have no balance sheet issues or concerns as we've said many, many times. So I hope that's an answer for you Polo, but more to come.

我想，槓桿可能會改變其中一些交易。例如，如果我說，嘿，我們要列出一項資產，您會正確地說，嗯，以 5 倍的價格很難做到這一點。因此，我們可以考慮如何去槓桿化以創造價值的交易。但如果沒有這一點，我認為我們不會去槓桿化。我認為我們的業務紮實穩定，我們沒有資產負債表問題或擔憂，正如我們多次所說的那樣。所以我希望這對你來說是一個答案，Polo，但未來還會有更多。

The next question comes from the line of James Ratzer with New Street Research.

下一個問題來自 New Street Research 的 James Ratzer。

So I had a question. I know you've talked in the past around kind of pressures in the B2C business. But in your opening remarks there, it sounded like you were kind of a bit more open around this issue as your kind of lead point in suggesting this pressure could continue into 2024. How are you kind of thinking about that specifically as you kind of think about the guidance for next year. Is this just continued pressure on KPIs? Or are you kind of thinking it could be harder to push price rises through next year? Would just be interested to hear what you are thinking about on those B2C pressures going into '24?

所以我有一個問題。我知道您過去曾談論過 B2C 業務中的壓力。但在您的開場白中，聽起來您對這個問題的態度更加開放，因為您建議這種壓力可能會持續到 2024 年。您具體是如何考慮這個問題的？關於明年的指導。這是否只是 KPI 的持續壓力？或者您認為明年推動價格上漲可能會更加困難？只是有興趣聽聽您對進入 24 世紀的 B2C 壓力有何看法？

And then also, I mean, you've changed the Telenet leverage approach here, which means it looks like if that cash in Telenet upstream to the TopCo, you're going to have about kind of $3 billion to $3.5 billion of liquidity now sitting at the TopCo. And I know you can't tell us exactly what you're planning for this strategic update, but should we be expecting as part of that, that, that cash could be used somehow or will be still at the end of 2024 with $3.5 billion of liquidity still sitting at the TopCo.

然後，我的意思是，你已經改變了這裡的 Telenet 槓桿方法，這意味著如果 Telenet 上游的 TopCo 現金，你現在將擁有大約 30 億到 35 億美元的流動性在TopCo.我知道您無法準確告訴我們您對此次戰略更新的計劃，但我們是否應該期望，作為其中的一部分，這筆現金可以以某種方式使用，或者到 2024 年底仍將有 35 億美元TopCo 中仍存在大量流動資金。

Good questions. On the cash point, I'll tackle that first, whether it's at Telenet or upstairs, it's consolidated and accessible. And I think it would be my preference, and I'm sure everyone on this call would agree that by the end of 2024, there's -- do we need to be sitting on $3.5 billion of cash, I would suggest no, we do not. That there should be and are likely to be opportunities for us to put that cash to work in value-accretive transactions or opportunities. It's never been our desire to sit on the cash as such. I think we've always, as you noticed, put that cash to work either in investments to a lesser degree, or into our own stock to a greater degree. That's going to change materially. But I do take your point that -- and I did sort of say just a moment ago, the kinds of things we'd be looking at could require some cash, and that would be only if we felt that the sorts of moves we could make would be value accretive.

好問題。關於現金點，我將首先解決這個問題，無論是在 Telenet 還是在樓上，它都是統一的且可訪問的。我認為這將是我的偏好，我相信參加這次電話會議的每個人都會同意，到 2024 年底，我們是否需要坐擁 35 億美元的現金，我建議不，我們不需要。我們應該並且可能有機會將這些現金用於增值交易或機會。我們從來都不想坐擁現金。我認為，正如您所注意到的，我們總是將這些現金用於較小程度的投資，或較大程度地用於我們自己的股票。這將會發生重大改變。但我確實同意你的觀點——我剛才確實說過，我們正在考慮的事情可能需要一些現金，而且只有當我們認為我們可以採取的行動時，才會這樣做。make 將會增值。

So let's see how it unfolds. As in general, having all that cash on our balance sheet doesn't necessarily serve shareholders, and we want to put it to work in ways that create value and drive the stock. So that's the short answer. On the B2C business, I think it was just an acknowledgment that if you look at our results across the group, Mobile is a steady business for us. Mobile service revenue, in particular, excluding handsets, continues to be a strong performing revenue stream that our B2B business is pretty much consistently in the low to mid-single-digit kind of revenue growth range, and that's an opportunity for us to continue to drive value in our OpCo's. And the B2C business, not unlike our peers around the world, faces some structural or secular headwinds, not the least of which is a video business that's declining and then a voice business that's declining.

那麼讓我們看看它是如何展開的。一般來說，資產負債表上的所有現金並不一定能為股東服務，我們希望以創造價值和推動股票的方式來利用這些現金。這就是簡短的答案。在 B2C 業務方面，我認為這只是承認，如果你看看整個集團的業績，你會發現行動業務對我們來說是一項穩定的業務。行動服務收入（特別是不包括手機）仍然是一個表現強勁的收入來源，我們的 B2B 業務幾乎一直處於中低個位數的收入增長範圍，這對我們來說是一個繼續發展的機會。推動我們OpCo 的價值。 B2C 業務與世界各地的同行一樣，面臨著一些結構性或長期的阻力，其中最重要的是視訊業務的下滑和語音業務的下滑。

So overcoming those challenges requires strong moves. And what we're doing in digital and price increases in broadband speeds and fiber builds will have an impact. But those things take time to deliver value and results. So I'm nearly just pointing out what everybody realizes that our fixed B2C business requires continued care and feeding and that as we go into '24, you should assume that is going to be an area of our P&L, we are heavily focused on, and we'll continue to update people on, but it's going to take quite a bit of time and effort and energy.

因此，克服這些挑戰需要採取強而有力的行動。我們在數位化方面所做的事情以及寬頻速度和光纖建設的價格上漲將會產生影響。但這些事情需要時間才能帶來價值和成果。所以我幾乎只是指出每個人都意識到我們的固定 B2C 業務需要持續的照顧和餵養，當我們進入 24 年時，你應該假設這將成為我們損益表的一個領域，我們非常關注，我們將繼續向人們通報最新情況，但這需要花費大量的時間、精力和精力。

And as we get into questions in each of the markets, I'm sure the CEOs on the call will address that fixed challenge in their own market. It's different in most markets. I will say that. It's not the same challenge beyond the video voice issue. We have different competitive environments, some more rational than others, different headwinds. So I think it does differ market to market, but it's just an acknowledgment of what analysts are already identifying here, which is we got to get busy on driving that fixed consumer business to a positive revenue growth position.

當我們在每個市場提出問題時，我相信參加電話會議的執行長將解決他們自己市場中的固定挑戰。大多數市場都不同。我會這麼說。除了視訊語音問題之外，這不是同樣的挑戰。我們有不同的競爭環境，有些比其他環境更理性，也有不同的阻力。因此，我認為市場與市場之間確實存在差異，但這只是對分析師已經確定的內容的認可，即我們必須忙於推動固定消費者業務實現積極的收入成長。

And that shouldn't then kind of derail your thinking that the Swiss business, which has been a bit of a drag recently, should still be able to achieve the Q4 stabilization in EBITDA and going into next year support from there?

這不應該讓您認為最近有點拖累的瑞士業務仍然能夠實現第四季度 EBITDA 的穩定並從那裡進入明年的支撐嗎？

Andre is confirming his guidance today. And if we have questions on Switzerland, I'm sure he can address that.

安德烈今天確認了他的指導。如果我們對瑞士有疑問，我相信他可以解決。

The next question comes from the line of Ulrich Rathe with Societe Generale.

下一個問題來自烏爾里希·拉特 (Ulrich Rathe) 與法國興業銀行 (Societe Generale) 的對話。

So on this strategy update and sort of the activities that you're planning there, it's really not a new topic. So my question is a little bit about the timing. What's the urgency now as compared to a year ago or 2 years ago when we were talking about this value gap in similar terms, maybe not quite to the same extent, but it was there. And the reason I'm asking this is the cornerstone stake sale was at a trailing multiple of 19x, and I think your European tower payers are trading more on 23x. So what's the reason to sort of in this perfect storm environment that we are in at the moment to sort of start getting active on this front?

因此，就這項策略更新以及您在那裡計劃的活動而言，這確實不是一個新主題。所以我的問題是關於時間安排的。與一年前或兩年前相比，現在的緊迫性是什麼，當時我們用類似的術語談論這種價值差距，也許程度不完全相同，但它確實存在。我之所以問這個問題，是因為基石股權出售的本益比為 19 倍，而我認為歐洲鐵塔付款人的交易本益比為 23 倍。那麼，在我們目前所處的完美風暴環境中，為什麼要開始在這方面積極行動呢？

And then if I may, just a clarification, Charlie, you talked about getting the benefit in the U.K. refinancing from swapping this into fixed because the swap rates are below the variable -- current variable brands, could you just put numbers behind that where you swapped into because that was actually my original question before you've made the comment that I had.

然後，如果可以的話，我想澄清一下，查理，你談到在英國通過將其轉換為固定利率來獲得再融資的好處，因為掉期利率低於變量——當前的變量品牌，你能把數字放在你想要的地方嗎？換成，因為這實際上是我在你發表評論之前最初的問題。

Yes. I'll let Charlie work up an answer on the refi. First of all, on the CTI sale at 19x, remember, we're disposing of a very small minority interest in that tower portfolio. It's not as if it's a change of control transaction. It's a relatively small stake and might lead to more things. So multiples have come down a bit, and we thought that, that particular price made sense in the context of what we were offering and the other elements of the deal, which are quite complex, as you know, in tower sales. So that to us made sense and to Telefónica, it made sense, and we pursued it.

是的。我會讓查理找出重新修改的答案。首先，請記住，在 CTI 以 19 倍的價格出售時，我們正在出售該塔式投資組合中極小的少數股權。這不像是控制權交易的變更。這是相對較小的股份，但可能會帶來更多的事情。因此，倍數有所下降，我們認為，在我們提供的產品和交易的其他要素的背景下，這個特定的價格是有意義的，正如你所知，在塔樓銷售中，這些要素非常複雜。因此，這對我們來說是有意義的，對西班牙電信來說也是有意義的，我們也追求它。

On strategy update, let me maybe provide some color. It's not as if we're going to show up and tell you exactly what's happening and when. It's not as if we have transactions ready to execute. But I think we want to be clearer with what our tactical game plan could look like. So people can start understanding the path that we believe -- or the paths, I should say, that we believe exist in front of us. So it's not a new topic. We're always working on these things. You can look at every fiscal year where we've done these calls, there's something happening on a strategic level. But it feels to us that it's a moment where we should provide some greater clarity what's the extent of what we're willing to consider and I'll also give people a better sense of how we see value in the OpCo's, for example, how we might be utilizing our cash updates on our buyback strategy. I think concrete examples of what we might be pursuing and how we see the market unfolding to potentially accept those types of strategies would be worthwhile. It's not as if we're about to transact in every instance.

關於策略更新，也許讓我提供一些顏色。我們並不是想要出現並告訴您到底發生了什麼事以及何時發生。我們並沒有準備好執行交易。但我認為我們希望更清楚我們的戰術比賽計劃是什麼樣的。這樣人們就可以開始理解我們所相信的道路——或者我應該說，我們相信存在於我們面前的道路。所以這不是一個新話題。我們一直在致力於這些事情。你可以看看我們進行這些電話會議的每個財政年度，在戰略層面上都發生了一些事情。但我們覺得，現在我們應該更清楚地說明我們願意考慮的範圍，我也會讓人們更了解我們如何看待 OpCo 的價值，例如，如何我們可能會在回購策略中利用我們的現金更新。我認為，我們可能追求什麼以及我們如何看待市場的發展以可能接受這些類型的策略的具體例子是值得的。我們並不是在所有情況下都會進行交易。

So consider it an update, not necessarily here's what we've done and -- but I think the update could be useful for people to start understanding the way we see the value creation narrative and things that we'd be willing to consider and might be already working on, we'll find out -- you'll find it out in that context. So...

因此，請將其視為更新，不一定是我們所做的事情，但我認為更新可能有助於人們開始理解我們看待價值創造敘述的方式以及我們願意考慮和可能的事情我們已經在努力了，我們會找到答案——你會在這種情況下找到答案。所以...

And just to pickup on the debt point -- yes, to be on the debt point, broadly, if you look at our debt, more than half of it is actually in what's called bank loans, which is slightly misleading because it's institutional investors who buy what's called a floating rate product, which is like a bank loan, LIBOR plus. And when we did those transactions, which generally had maturities of 8 years, we did swaps from floating rate into fixed rates. And therefore, the LIBOR plus the spread and our spreads broadly speaking around 300 basis points, 300, 325, those kind of numbers.

就債務問題而言——是的，從廣義上講，如果你看看我們的債務，一半以上實際上是所謂的銀行貸款，這有點誤導，因為是機構投資者購買所謂的浮動利率產品，就像銀行貸款，LIBOR plus。當我們進行這些交易時（通常期限為 8 年），我們將浮動利率掉期為固定利率。因此，LIBOR 加上利差，我們的利差大致約為 300 個基點、300、325 等數字。

At the time we did swaps, we were swapping at about 1%, whereas the swap rate today is probably 4%, 4.5%, depending on the market. And the point I was trying to make was that those swaps survive independent of any refinancing. So they still -- they go to maturity, if you like. So it's not when you refinance your debt, you lose the benefit of the swap, swap continues. So in effect, what it says is that on the bank loans, which is this floating rate debt, we're hedged until 2028 and beyond in many cases. And it's really a question of what we do about hedging after that period. That was the only point I was trying to make.

當我們進行掉期時，我們的掉期利率約為 1%，而今天的掉期利率可能是 4%、4.5%，具體取決於市場。我想要表達的觀點是，這些互換可以獨立於任何再融資而存在。所以他們仍然——如果你願意的話，他們會走向成熟。因此，當您為債務再融資時，您不會失去掉期的好處，掉期仍在繼續。因此，實際上，它所說的是，對於銀行貸款，即這種浮動利率債務，我們在許多情況下都會對沖到 2028 年及以後。這實際上是一個我們在該時期之後如何進行對沖的問題。這是我唯一想表達的觀點。

The next question comes from the line of Carl Murdock-Smith with Berenberg.

下一個問題來自卡爾·默多克·史密斯與貝倫貝格的關係。

My question is on Virgin Media O2. With the fiber base, now well over $3 million and starting to approach $4 million, I was just wondering if you had any lessons learned about customer behaviors in that base. Is there any difference to customers on the rest of your network in terms of either NPS or propensity to churn or ARPU? And I guess I asked slightly because all your services are marketed as fiber broadband. So I was just wondering in terms of what are the differences you've seen between that cohort of customers and pre-existing customers?

我的問題是關於 Virgin Media O2。光纖基礎現在遠超過 300 萬美元，並開始接近 400 萬美元，我只是想知道您是否從該基礎上的客戶行為中學到了任何經驗教訓。網路其餘部分的客戶在 NPS、流失傾向或 ARPU 方面有什麼不同嗎？我想我稍微問了一下，因為你們所有的服務都以光纖寬頻的形式銷售。所以我只是想知道您看到的這群客戶和現有客戶之間有什麼區別？

Lutz, do you want to address that?

盧茲，你想解決這個問題嗎？

Yes, sure. So first of all, we are only marketing fiber into the nexfibre footprint coax. So we haven't started to market fiber in our existing footprint. So that means we are talking about something like 700,000 homes. And we have started to generate customers, but the amount of pure fiber customers in it is not so big. Now having said all of this, in terms of customer satisfaction, in terms of installation, speed, reliability, we don't see really massive differences and between a fiber customer and coax customer. And the reason for that is we think because our existing coax network is very strong, offers today up to 1 or 1 gig speed, has a really high reliability and the customer doesn't really perceive in our opinion, the different underlying technology. So no material difference from us seen so far. It might change in the future, but so far, not.

是的，當然。因此，首先，我們僅將光纖行銷到 nexfibre 足跡同軸電纜中。因此，我們還沒有開始在現有的足跡中銷售光纖。這意味著我們正在談論大約 70 萬套房屋。而且我們已經開始產生客戶了，但裡面的純纖維客戶量還沒那麼大。說了這麼多，就客戶滿意度、安裝、速度、可靠性而言，我們沒有看到光纖客戶和同軸電纜客戶之間存在真正的巨大差異。原因是我們認為，因為我們現有的同軸電纜網路非常強大，目前可提供高達1 或1 gig 的速度，具有非常高的可靠性，並且在我們看來，客戶並沒有真正意識到不同的底層技術。所以到目前為止，我們沒有看到任何實質的差異。未來可能會改變，但到目前為止還沒有。

The next question comes from the line of Maurice Patrick with Barclays.

下一個問題來自巴克萊銀行的莫里斯帕特里克。

If I could ask a question on the Dutch business. So you've seen broadband net adds because that they've taken a sort of step down, again, down minus 30%. On the previous call, I think Jeroen was when asked about whether you're seeing loss to AltNets or KPN, seem to indicate it was more sort of KPN being deeply promotional rather than a loss to AltNets as such, despite the continued rollout of the folks at DELTA Fiber and ODF. I'm just curious to understand whether those dynamics were changing at all? And if it's still KPN driving most of that decline in your base.

如果我可以問一個關於荷蘭業務的問題。所以你已經看到寬頻網路增加了，因為他們再次下降了-30%。在先前的電話會議上，我認為 Jeroen 當被問及您是否看到 AltNets 還是 KPN 的損失時，似乎表明 KPN 正在大力推廣，而不是 AltNets 本身的損失，儘管繼續推出DELTA Fiber 和 ODF 的工作人員。我只是想知道這些動態是否改變了？如果 KPN 仍然是你的基礎下降的主要原因。

Jeroen, do you want to address that, please?

Jeroen，你想解決這個問題嗎？

Mike, Ritchy here, Jeroen just dropped off his line and disconnected, but I am here. Do you want me to take this?

麥克，里奇在這裡，傑羅恩剛剛掉線並斷開連接，但我在這裡。你想讓我拿這個嗎？

Yes, go ahead.

好，去吧。

Okay. The -- what you see happening is that KPN amongst the others are extremely aggressive still in terms of promotional pricing. I think Mike mentioned it already at the call. So depromotional pricing, the -- which is, for sure, impacting us. What you also need to bear in mind in the third quarter, you get the, let's say, knock-on effect of the July 1 price increase, which was a very successful price increase leading to revenue growth and ARPU increase, but it also (inaudible) a bit of the net add performance. But to your question, KPN, super aggressive, like the others is while rolling out fiber.

好的。您所看到的情況是，KPN 等公司在促銷定價方面仍然非常積極。我想麥克已經在電話會議上提到過這一點。因此，促銷定價肯定會影響我們。在第三季度你還需要記住的是，比如說，7 月 1 日提價的連鎖反應，這是一次非常成功的提價，導致收入增長和 ARPU 增加，但它也（聽不清楚）一點淨增加性能。但對於你的問題，KPN 非常激進，就像其他人在推出光纖時一樣。

I think the question Ritchy is what AltNets are impacting our performance. My understanding is it's limited impact from AltNets. As you might know, from here you see the 2 AltNets in that market have been quite disciplined about not overbuilding each other and building around unique discrete areas. And so delta, half their footprint isn't even on our footprint and ODF is quite not very far along. So I would suggest the answer is it's limited impact. But Ritchy, the question was whether we've seen any meaningful impact from AltNets on our footprint.

我認為 Ritchy 的問題是 AltNet 正在影響我們的表現。我的理解是 AltNet 的影響有限。正如您可能知道的，從這裡您可以看到該市場中的 2 個 AltNet 非常有紀律，不會過度建立彼此並圍繞獨特的離散領域進行建設。所以三角洲，他們的一半足跡甚至不在我們的足跡上，ODF 也不是很遠。所以我建議答案是它的影響有限。但 Ritchy，問題是我們是否看到 AltNets 對我們的足跡產生了任何有意義的影響。

No, you're right there. I missed the beginning, you're right there. So it is back to my earlier answer, it is mostly the KPN side of the house because the order stay, as you say, rather disciplined.

不，你就在那裡。我錯過了開頭，你就在那裡。所以這又回到了我之前的回答，這主要是 KPN 方面的事情，因為正如你所說，命令仍然相當有紀律。

The next question comes from the line of Stephen Malcolm with Redburn Limited.

下一個問題來自 Redburn Limited 的 Stephen Malcolm。

A couple on the U.K., if I can just to cover about nexfibre and Virgin. First of all, nexfibre, you -- obviously you undertook an acquisition in September, you bought up. It looks like you passed in truly a few months ago. Can you help us sort of understand what you liked about up and what wasn't so good about truly, and maybe just the lens you look at these transactions through as we look forward for the next 12 months or so. I guess alongside that, any progress on wholesaling with nexfibre beyond Virgin Media, maybe just sort of any color on the transactions there or discussions?

一對在英國的夫婦，如果可以的話，我可以簡單介紹 nexfibre 和 Virgin。首先，nexfibre，你——顯然你在九月進行了一次收購，你買了。看起來你真的是幾個月前才進來的。您能否幫助我們了解您真正喜歡什麼、不喜歡什麼，也許只是您在我們展望未來 12 個月左右的時間時看待這些交易的視角。我想除此之外，除了維珍媒體之外，nexfibre 的批發方面是否有任何進展，也許只是那裡的交易或討論有任何色彩？

And sorry, finally, one quick add-on. Just back to the U.K. and interest rates. Can you help us understand what your sort of base case for rates is in the U.K. I mean I think you just -- you refinanced that $1.2 billion. I think it cost you north of 8% from 27%. We can all do the math. If you refinance your debt stack at sort of 8%, 9%, you pretty much wipe out your operating free cash flow. Are you assuming that rates will fall back? Or do you just think you've got enough EBITDA and growth in CapEx declines to absorb that in extremist to allow you to keep running the debt stack in a sort of low $20 billion (inaudible).

抱歉，最後，還有一個快速附加元件。回到英國和利率。您能否幫助我們了解您在英國的利率基本情況是什麼？我的意思是，我認為您剛剛為這 12 億美元進行了再融資。我認為你的成本從 27% 上升到 8%。我們都可以算一算。如果你以 8%、9% 的利率為你的債務再融資，你幾乎會耗盡你的經營自由現金流。您是否認為利率會回落？或者你只是認為你已經獲得了足夠的 EBITDA，而資本支出的增長卻下降了，足以吸收極端主義者的債務，從而使你能夠繼續以 200 億美元的低水平運行債務堆棧（聽不清）。

Yes. Well, Charlie, you get ready for the interest rate question. On the nexfibre question. A simple answer on up versus truly is percentage of overbuild of our own footprint. We have quite a big plan for the East of England and most of the homes, I think 175,000 are in the east where we are not necessarily today. So nexfibre is looking for acquisitions aggressively of AltNets, principally that don't already overbuild Virgin Media O2 and create real greenfield opportunities where Virgin Media O2 can be a customer as well as potentially others. No real update on wholesaling. We did have success in Ireland, as you might know. We have now Vodafone and Sky Wholesaling for our whole buying from our fiber network in Ireland. So there are no sort of institutional biases against wholesaling from Liberty. I can tell you that. It's just a matter of time, in my opinion. And we're relatively hopeful on that. Charlie, you want to address the interest rate question?

是的。好吧，查理，你準備好回答利率問題了。關於nexfibre問題。關於「向上」與「真實」的一個簡單答案是我們自己的足跡的過度建設的百分比。我們對英格蘭東部和大部分房屋有一個相當大的計劃，我認為 175,000 棟房屋位於東部，而我們今天不一定在東部。因此，nexfibre 正在積極尋求對 AltNets 的收購，主要是那些尚未過度建設 Virgin Media O2 的收購，並創造真正的綠地機會，讓 Virgin Media O2 可以成為客戶以及潛在的其他客戶。批發方面沒有真正的更新。你可能知道，我們在愛爾蘭確實取得了成功。現在，我們透過沃達豐和天空批發公司從愛爾蘭的光纖網路進行全部採購。因此，不存在針對 Liberty 批發的製度偏見。我可以告訴你。在我看來，這只是時間問題。我們對此抱有相對的希望。查理，你想解決利率問題嗎？

Yes. So as you said, we did that refinancing in the U.K. That was of this type of bank debt, what they call bank loans or traded loans. So as a result, what we were really rolling was maturity and credit spreads. So the credit spread actually rolled at the same as it had been. So what in effect we did is we took the maturity from 2028 to 2031, but what we didn't do was put the swaps on for the interest rates in 2029, 2030 and 2031. So in theory, on that debt, we are fixed until 2028 and then there we will become floating in '29, '30, '31, although we have the option at any time to lock in a fixed rate for those 3 years if we choose.

是的。正如你所說，我們在英國進行了再融資，就是這種類型的銀行債務，他們稱之為銀行貸款或交易貸款。因此，我們真正滾動的是到期日和信用利差。因此，信用利差實際上與以前一樣。因此，實際上我們所做的就是將到期日從2028 年延長到2031 年，但我們沒有做的是對2029 年、2030 年和2031 年的利率進行掉期。所以理論上，對於該債務，我們是固定的直到 2028 年，然後我們將在 29 年、30 年、31 年實現浮動利率，儘管我們可以隨時選擇在這 3 年內鎖定固定利率（如果我們選擇的話）。

And as you rightly pointed out, we're probably not paid to guess on interest rates, but it does feel to us the rates are reasonably high today as the Central Banks try and squeeze off inflation. And there's certainly the European Central Bank yesterday, I think, it suggests that rates probably are certainly not going any higher and maybe starting to trend down. So we'll see how that plays out. But just to reiterate, we have a lot of time. You also made the point though, but if it does settle out at the 7% or 8%, what does that do to the 4x to 5x. I think I would observe that we're in a very big investment cycle, pretty much across the peak, perhaps not in Switzerland, but certainly, across the piece, we're investing in fiber up in the U.K., particularly.

正如您正確指出的那樣，我們可能沒有報酬來猜測利率，但我們確實感覺到，隨著央行試圖抑制通貨膨脹，今天的利率相當高。我認為昨天歐洲央行的表現肯定表明利率肯定不會再走高，甚至可能開始下降。所以我們將看看結果如何。但重申一下，我們有很多時間。不過，您也指出了這一點，但如果確實穩定在 7% 或 8%，那麼這對 4 倍到 5 倍有何影響。我想我會觀察到，我們正處於一個非常大的投資週期，幾乎已經跨越了高峰，也許不是在瑞士，但可以肯定的是，我們正在投資英國的光纖，尤其是在英國。

And so all things being equal, whilst we don't give long-term LRP guidance, probably observing this, pretty likely CapEx is going to be materially lower in 5, 6, 7 years' time, which would increase the free cash flow conversion. So we'll have to see how it plays out. But I think we still feel pretty comfortable with this 4 to 5x. But we do understand through the cycle at times, it seems high-ish and at times investors tell me it's too low. But for the time being, we're comfortable.

因此，在所有條件相同的情況下，雖然我們沒有提供長期 LRP 指導，但可能會觀察到這一點，資本支出很可能在 5、6、7 年內大幅降低，這將增加自由現金流轉換。所以我們必須看看結果如何。但我認為我們對這個 4 到 5 倍仍然感到很舒服。但我們確實明白，在整個週期中，有時它似乎很高，有時投資者告訴我它太低了。但就目前而言，我們很舒服。

Okay. So just to be clear, if the rates don't move from here, you feel comfortable with where you are and then you think the CapEx declines would absorb a lot of the uplift in interest cost in a sort of 5-year -- 4 to 5 year (inaudible) to predict, but is that fair?

好的。因此，需要明確的是，如果利率沒有從現在開始變化，您對自己所處的位置感到滿意，然後您認為資本支出的下降將在 5 年內吸收大量利息成本的上升 - 4到5 年（聽不清楚）來預測，但這公平嗎？

Yes. I mean, by the way, my lawyer (inaudible), what do you mean you're giving a 5, 7, 8-year guidance. But yes, don't kill me.

是的。我的意思是，順便說一下，我的律師（聽不清楚），您給出 5 年、7 年、8 年的指導是什麼意思？但是，是的，別殺我。

No. But I mean clearly, with that amount of debt you can't wait 4 or 5 years to refinance, right? You're going to have to get moving over the next couple so...

不。但我的意思很明確，有了這麼多債務，你不可能等上四五年才能再融資，對嗎？你將不得不移動接下來的幾個所以......

No. The point I was trying to make, though, but you are refinancing the credit spread, let's be clear, right? And that's the point I was (inaudible) with a swap point. Yes, if you refinance bonds, then you do lose whatever the interest rate was at the time, which was clearly pretty low at the time. Remember, though, that a lot of our bond debt was actually 10-year debt. So not always, but by and large, that is beyond '28 across the complexes. So I mean, again, there are individual examples, of course, but that is longer than the bank does. So to be honest with you, the bond debt, yes, we should refinance it, but it doesn't all have to refinance in the next 4 or 5 years (inaudible) refinanced on some metrics.

不。不過，我想表達的觀點是，你們正在為信用利差進行再融資，讓我們明確一點，對吧？這就是我（聽不清楚）交換點的要點。是的，如果你為債券再融資，那麼你確實會損失當時的利率，而當時的利率顯然相當低。但請記住，我們的許多債券債務實際上是 10 年期債務。因此，並非總是如此，但總的來說，整個綜合體的情況都超出了 28 年。所以我的意思是，當然，有個別例子，但比銀行的例子要長。老實說，債券債務，是的，我們應該對其進行再融資，但並非全部都必須在未來 4 或 5 年內（聽不清楚）根據某些指標進行再融資。

The next question comes from of the line of Georgios Ierodiaconou with Citigroup.

下一個問題來自 Georgios Ierodiaconou 與花旗集團的關係。

The first one is around the comments you made about using some of your liquidity in order to crystallize value. And one of the things that investors are concerned is the leverage at OpCo level for some of your subsidiaries. So my question has, in a way, 2 sides to it. Firstly, whether you are envisaging a way in which to fund investments within your subsidiaries, maybe to allow for that deleveraging or improve the liquidity of the subsidiaries. And secondly, in those cases where you have JV partners where you believe there is alignment around the strategic options. And obviously, there's been partial sale announced yesterday in the U.K., but there's a lot more assets in a lot more subsidiaries that may be available?

第一個是關於您關於使用部分流動性來實現價值的評論。投資者關心的事情之一是您的一些子公司在 OpCo 層面的槓桿率。所以我的問題在某種程度上有兩面。首先，您是否正在設想一種為子公司內部投資提供資金的方式，也許可以實現去槓桿化或提高子公司的流動性。其次，在您認為合資夥伴的策略選擇一致的情況下。顯然，昨天在英國宣布了部分出售，但可能還有更多子公司的更多資產可供出售？

And then my second question is just to get a bit of clarification around group and other. I know it may be hard for you to give us precise guidance, but it creates a lot of volatility on EBITDA, which may not affect cash, but it's a key metric, so I was wondering if you can give us some indications as to how we should think about the next couple of quarters? And then whether this turns into a tailwind from the second quarter of next year?

然後我的第二個問題只是想對團體和其他方面進行一些澄清。我知道您可能很難給我們精確的指導，但這會給EBITDA 帶來很大的波動，這可能不會影響現金，但它是一個關鍵指標，所以我想知道您是否可以給我們一些指示，告訴我們如何我們應該考慮接下來的幾個季度？那麼這是否會從明年第二季開始成為一股順風車？

Charlie, I'll give that last question to you. On the leverage point, absent some event of some sort that we would be value accretive, I don't see us delevering with NASH based on everything we've just said, which is our balance sheet is strong. Our interest rates are fixed, our maturities are long term. We don't -- we're not in a crisis, we don't see any reason to start delevering as such. So would we -- now your question was will we put capital into the subsidiaries at some point to do ever. The answer is perhaps. But in my opinion, only if we really feel that, that would create value in the context of an event. I'll leave it at that. It's not complicated. You know what I'm referring to. Absent that, no, I think the leverage should stay where it is. And we have, for the time being, a very stable derisked balance sheet.

查理，我將最後一個問題問你。在槓桿點上，如果沒有發生某種我們會增值的事件，我不認為我們會根據我們剛才所說的一切對 NASH 進行去槓桿化，即我們的資產負債表很強勁。我們的利率是固定的，期限是長期的。我們沒有——我們沒有陷入危機，我們看不到任何理由開始去槓桿化。我們也會——現在你的問題是，我們是否會在某個時候投入資金給子公司？答案或許是。但在我看來，只有當我們真正感受到這一點時，才會在事件的背景下創造價值。我就這樣吧。這並不復雜。你知道我指的是什麼。如果沒有這一點，不，我認為槓桿應該保持在原來的水平。目前，我們擁有非常穩定的去風險資產負債表。

In terms of JV partners, we have 2 partners, and they're both good partners. And we generally see eye to eye on all matters, including operational, but especially strategic. So I would suggest that I don't see that as a major obstacle if we have clever ideas or they have good ideas about how to not just advance the business operationally and financially, which, of course, we always listen to, but ways in which we can drive value for our respective shareholders. They are open ears and also full of ideas. So I don't see that as being a point of friction or a reason why something can't get done. So I'll leave it at that. Charlie, do you want to address the last question?

在合資夥伴方面，我們有兩個合作夥伴，他們都是很好的合作夥伴。我們通常在所有問題上意見一致，包括營運問題，尤其是策略問題。因此，我建議，如果我們有聰明的想法，或者他們有關於如何不僅在運營和財務上推進業務的好想法，我不認為這是一個主要障礙，當然，我們總是傾聽這些想法，但方式我們可以為各自的股東創造價值。他們善於傾聽，也充滿想法。因此，我不認為這是一個摩擦點或某件事無法完成的原因。所以我就這樣吧。查理，你想回答最後一個問題嗎？

Yes. So I think if (inaudible) you're correctly identifying volatility in the reported OFCF at corporate, which is the central charges. So just to remind everybody, the central charges broadly relate to the technology services we provide to our OpCos and also related to the genuine sort of central activities, things like shared services that then we charge to the OpCo, et cetera, et cetera. And you will have noticed the Eagle item, there is a bit of volatility. We've always told you that, that should be at $200 million to $250 million cost, and we're very comfortable with that, frankly, I am giving long-term guidance on that basis. We're pretty comfortable with that number.

是的。因此，我認為（聽不清楚）您是否正確識別了公司報告的 OFCF 的波動性，即中央費用。因此，提醒大家，中心收費廣泛涉及我們向 OpCo 提供的技術服務，也與真正的中心活動相關，例如我們向 OpCo 收取費用的共享服務等。您會注意到鷹項目，有一點波動。我們一直告訴你，成本應該是 2 億到 2.5 億美元，我們對此感到非常滿意，坦白說，我將在此基礎上提供長期指導。我們對這個數字很滿意。

The reason there's volatility is the magic of accounting. So apparently, when we did this transaction with Infosys, which I think is a fantastic transaction and really creates enormous value for our shareholders and also really validates all the value that has been created and the technology that's been done in our tech space. We have, unfortunately, a noncash charge which we have to bleed through the P&L, certainly in this quarter and next quarter. And I'm hoping not next year that the accounting vagaries remain dazzling. But it's noncash, and we try very hard to disclose anyway. And I'm very happy to pick it up with you after. It's a noncash write-off that the accountants correctly, I'm sure, (inaudible) has to go through this OFCF, but the cash narrative is still at $200 million to $250 million and will be, in my opinion, for quite a bit of time.

波動的原因在於會計的魔力。顯然，當我們與印孚瑟斯進行這筆交易時，我認為這是一筆很棒的交易，確實為我們的股東創造了巨大的價值，也真正驗證了我們技術領域已創造的所有價值和已完成的技術。不幸的是，我們有一項非現金費用，我們必須將其計入損益表，當然在本季和下季。我希望明年的會計變化不會仍然令人眼花撩亂。但這不是現金，無論如何我們都非常努力地披露。我很高興之後能和你一起拿起它。這是非現金沖銷，我相信會計師正確地（聽不清楚）必須經歷這個 OFCF，但現金敘述仍為 2 億至 2.5 億美元，並且在我看來，將持續相當長一段時間的時間。

The next question comes from the line of Matthew Harrigan with The Benchmark Company.

下一個問題來自 Benchmark Company 的 Matthew Harrigan。

The Infosys number, $100 million is certainly impressive. I assume that's an ad mixture of OpEx and CapEx. And is that indicative of further technology savings. I'm sure that's going to be a discussion point at your extended 4Q strategic review? And do you have any further thoughts on the long-term capital intensity? I think, Enrique, over a period of years, has talked about 17% being the end game. I know that's affected by mobile, pulling it down. Do you see a lot of variance in the CapEx intensity by market, given your network strategies and access and all that. I know that's a little extended, but I'd love to get your thoughts.

Infosys 的數字 1 億美元確實令人印象深刻。我認為這是營運支出和資本支出的混合體。這是否表明進一步節省了技術。我確信這將成為您第四季度戰略審查的討論點？您對長期資本密集度還有進一步的想法嗎？我認為，恩里克多年來一直談到 17% 是最終的結果。我知道這受到行動裝置的影響，導致其下降。考慮到您的網路策略和存取權限等等，您是否發現不同市場的資本支出強度有很大差異？我知道這有點長，但我很想聽聽您的想法。

Matt, on the long-term capital intensity, I think we've -- you can see it markets do differ depending on where we are, particularly on fixed network strategies as well as how far along we are on 5G development. So -- but the good news is that these things have lives to them, and we anticipate, as Charlie indicated, capital intensity declining long term. So that is the short answer. I don't know if Charlie or Enrique want to address the impact that the Infosys deal might have on further savings opportunities, but I'll let one of you pick that up. Enrique, do you want to...

馬特，關於長期資本密集度，我認為我們——你可以看到市場確實根據我們所處的位置而有所不同，特別是在固定網絡戰略以及我們在 5G 開發方面的進展情況。所以，但好消息是，這些東西都有生命力，正如查理指出的那樣，我們預計資本密集度會長期下降。這就是簡短的答案。我不知道查理或恩里克是否想解決印孚瑟斯交易可能對進一步節省機會的影響，但我會讓你們中的一個人來回答這個問題。恩里克，你想...

Yes. On the first part of the question, it is a mix of OpEx and CapEx, of which OpEx is a larger component than CapEx on the $100 million annual run rate estimate. And yes, we do expect that there will be evolution of that deal that will bring in additional technology improvements and savings, although we are really focused on making sure that we maintain a great customer experience. So this is not a purely cost-driven program.

是的。關於問題的第一部分，它是營運支出和資本支出的混合體，在 1 億美元的年運行率估計中，營運支出比資本支出更大。是的，我們確實預計該交易將會取得進展，帶來額外的技術改進和節省，儘管我們真正專注於確保保持良好的客戶體驗。所以這不是一個純粹的成本驅動的計劃。

The next question comes from the line of David Wright with Bank of America Merrill Lynch.

下一個問題來自美國銀行美林銀行的戴維‧賴特 (David Wright)。

My first one is on your joint venture partners. My sense was that Telefonica is definitely reconsidering the releverage trade at VMO2 and paying that back upstream because it is just plain and simple financially dilutive for them with 5% cost of debt and you've just refinanced the date, for instance, against that balance sheet to 3.5%. And they're just paying dividend. I mean you can obviously justify the trade much more efficiently, I think, with buybacks. So it does feel like there is some misalignment there. Now they've got a Capital Markets Day, 8th of November. So I'm just wondering if they're going to announce a slightly different objective for maybe VMO2 leverage that you might want to just sort of consider here.

我的第一個問題是關於你們的合資夥伴。我的感覺是，Telefonica 肯定會重新考慮VMO2 的再槓桿交易，並將其償還給上游，因為這對他們來說是簡單明了的財務稀釋，債務成本為5%，而你剛剛根據該餘額進行了再融資。片材至3.5%。他們只是支付股息。我的意思是，我認為，透過回購，你顯然可以更有效地證明交易的合理性。所以感覺確實存在一些偏差。現在他們設立了資本市場日，即 11 月 8 日。所以我只是想知道他們是否會宣布一個稍微不同的 VMO2 槓桿目標，您可能只想在這裡考慮一下。

And then just on the cash next year that you guys have obviously have on the balance sheet. I guess one of the possibilities is that you do see less dividend upstream, whether it be VMO2, I'm not so sure, but surely VodafoneZiggo is struggling to justify a dividend, I think given its operational performance and its leverage. So is it the case that you could use the cash maybe to sustain the buyback with less dividend upstream in the near term?

然後就是明年你們資產負債表上很明顯有的現金。我想其中一種可能性是，你確實看到上游股息減少，無論是 VMO2，我不太確定，但我認為考慮到其營運績效和槓桿作用，VodafoneZiggo 肯定正在努力證明股息的合理性。那麼，您是否可以在短期內使用現金來維持回購，同時減少上游股利？

Mike, before you answer, can I make a quick point. First of all, just real, we haven't recapped at 8%. We've recapped at 4% because of these swaps that I was talking about earlier on. Maybe I misunderstood your question, but because the swap rate is already locked into 2028, we've just extended the spread. And I think if you're talking about the debt raise earlier in the year, we had done actually forward swaps. So I do agree going forward, if we recap it could be excellent. And I think as we indicated, we'll always evaluate like all these decisions with our partners with the best use of capital. But I just want to make sure we're clear but it has -- it wasn't that we just extended our balance sheet at 8%. We've extended our balance sheet at 4%, but with an open question around 2029, '30, '31. Sorry, Mike, do you want to pickup.

麥克，在你回答之前，我可以先簡單說一下嗎？首先，這是真實的，我們沒有回顧 8%。由於我之前談到的這些掉期，我們將利率調整為 4%。也許我誤解了你的問題，但由於掉期利率已經鎖定在2028年，所以我們剛剛擴大了利差。我認為，如果你談論的是今年早些時候的債務籌集，我們實際上已經進行了遠期掉期。所以我確實同意繼續前進，如果我們回顧一下可能會很棒。我認為正如我們所指出的，我們將始終與我們的合作夥伴一起評估所有這些決定，並充分利用資本。但我只是想確保我們清楚，但這並不是說我們只是將資產負債表擴大到 8%。我們已將資產負債表擴展至 4%，但在 2029 年、'30、'31 左右仍有一個懸而未決的問題。抱歉，麥克，你要接車嗎？

I did get that (inaudible) I think, sorry, Charlie, but their balance sheet is at 3.5%. So for them, it's a dilutive -- when the net debt-to-EBITDA is considered proportionately by the agencies, it's a fiscally dilutive move.

我確實明白了（聽不清楚）我想，對不起，查理，但他們的資產負債表是 3.5%。因此，對他們來說，這是一種稀釋——當各機構按比例考慮淨債務與 EBITDA 之比時，這是一種財政稀釋措施。

No, no, I get that. I mean, obviously, they've got their own -- I mean I'm not for me to pin on their capital structure. I'm just taking the point there when you said 8%. That is slightly...

不，不，我明白了。我的意思是，很明顯，他們有自己的資本結構——我的意思是，我不希望我去固定他們的資本結構。當你說8%時，我只是強調這一點。那是稍微...

Yes. And I think that's the point, we're not going to comment on (inaudible) Capital Markets Day. He'll come out and provide, I'm sure, a point of view on lots of things and perhaps even on the JV and these sorts of matters. I will simply say that we are consistently aligned on most everything that we consider, and I'll just leave that at that. You also asked if we would use cash on the balance sheet to sustain the buyback potentially? I don't know that we would -- we certainly wouldn't exclude that idea. I mean it seems to us if the stock continues to trade at meaningful discounts to any reasonable value then we should be looking at it as we would any investment. And I'm not commenting on distributable cash flow next year because it's October -- November 1. On the other hand, we're -- and to answer your question direct and short, why wouldn't we, if we felt like that was the best use of cash. Certainly, we would look at that as an alternative.

是的。我認為這就是重點，我們不會對（聽不清楚）資本市場日發表評論。我相信，他會站出來就很多事情，甚至可能是合資企業和這類問題提出自己的觀點。我只想說，我們在我們考慮的大多數事情上始終保持一致，我就到此為止。您也問我們是否會使用資產負債表上的現金來維持潛在的回購？我不知道我們會——我們當然不會排除這個想法。我的意思是，在我們看來，如果股票繼續以相對於任何合理價值的有意義的折扣進行交易，那麼我們應該像對待任何投資一樣看待它。我不會評論明年的可分配現金流，因為現在是 10 月 - 11 月 1 日。另一方面，我們 - 並且直接簡短地回答你的問題，如果我們有這樣的感覺，為什麼我們不呢？是現金的最佳用途。當然，我們會將此視為替代方案。

Just sneaking in on the Cornerstone sale. Just a very simple question, why did you not look to sell all of the stake, I guess? I mean, obviously, it's a lot more complicated than that simple question. But was it a case of -- I know the Vantage has expressed an interest in owning more of Cornerstone to bring the asset into fully consolidated financials. So I'm just wondering, it's obviously 1/3 of your stake was sold. Is there any reason why you didn't exit in entirety?

剛剛偷偷參加了基石促銷活動。只是一個非常簡單的問題，我猜你為什麼不考慮出售所有股份？我的意思是，顯然，這比這個簡單的問題要複雜得多。但我知道 Vantage 已表示有興趣擁有更多 Cornerstone 股份，以便將該資產納入完全合併的財務報表。所以我只是想知道，顯然你的股票有 1/3 被賣掉了。有什麼理由讓你沒有徹底退出嗎？

Andrea, do you want to handle that?

安德里亞，你想解決這個問題嗎？

Yes. Thank you, Mike. Look, I think we explored all the alternatives. I would say, as in all these tower transactions, there are complicated sets of variables. The -- it's a trade-off, obviously, of retaining strategic and operational co-control at a time when we're investing heavily in the network versus realizing some proceeds today. So I think in combination with Telefonica and given the upside that we saw out there, we made that trade off. And we're actually delighted with the result that we got. I would add that just a comment that I think one of the earlier questions on could we sell it cheaply was the implication. If you look at where the (inaudible) are trading, they're trading at 17, 18x, and obviously, as I think everyone in this call appreciates, when you sell a tower company, there are many different ways that you can put value into the telco or you can keep value on the MNO. So it's extremely difficult to compare results across individual transactions.

是的。謝謝你，麥克。聽著，我想我們探索了所有的替代方案。我想說，就像在所有這些塔式交易中一樣，存在著複雜的變數集。顯然，這是在我們大力投資網路時保留策略和營運共同控制權與今天實現一些收益之間的權衡。因此，我認為結合西班牙電信並考慮到我們看到的優勢，我們做出了這種權衡。事實上，我們對得到的結果感到很高興。我想補充一點，我認為早期的問題之一是我們可以便宜地出售它，這只是一個評論的含義。如果你看看（聽不清楚）的交易價格，他們的交易價格是17 倍、18 倍，顯然，正如我認為本次電話會議中的每個人都欣賞的那樣，當你出售一家鐵塔公司時，你可以透過多種不同的方式來評估價值進入電信公司，或者您可以保留 MNO 的價值。因此，要比較各個交易的結果非常困難。

So I think a minority stake that allows us to keep financial control and strategic control of the asset at the time when we're investing at a slight premium to where the current players are trading with an ability to get a control premium from other operators down the road, we thought it was a very smart trade. I hope that addresses the question.

因此，我認為少數股權使我們能夠在我們以比當前參與者交易略高的溢價進行投資時保持對資產的財務控制和戰略控制，並且能夠降低其他運營商的控制溢價路上，我們認為這是一個非常明智的交易。我希望這能解決這個問題。

I was just going to say that, you mentioned control, but it's not controlled, right? Because it's a 50-50...

我剛才想說的是，你提到了控制，但它不是受控的，對嗎？因為是50-50...

Yes, sorry. Yes, that's a very good point. It's co-control with Vantage, but it's obviously important to us.

是的，抱歉。是的，這是一個很好的觀點。它是與 Vantage 共同控制的，但這對我們來說顯然很重要。

The next question comes from the line of Joshua Mills with BNP Paribas.

下一個問題來自約書亞·米爾斯 (Joshua Mills) 與法國巴黎銀行 (BNP Paribas) 的對話。

I had a question on the Netherlands and question on Belgium. So just starting with the Dutch market, in the last few quarters, both VodafoneZiggo and KPN have blamed each other for front book pricing trends, which have been very poor. I just want to ask, in your view, is that more of a structural issue here around network quality? And maybe one way of answering this would be if you could provide some color around NPS scores because you do refer to these in the VodafoneZiggo reports improving as you move to convergence, but KPN last week were basically implying that [network schools] are negative for their competitors. And on the front book trends, I think in the same press release, you talked about the launch of new front book propositions with faster Internet speeds to try and repair net add trends. So maybe how you're thinking about value over volume because obviously, it'd be great for the market if everyone went to value, but I read that comment in the report is slightly a shift towards volume.

我有一個關於荷蘭和比利時的問題。因此，從荷蘭市場開始，在過去的幾個季度中，VodafoneZiggo 和 KPN 都互相指責對方的預訂定價趨勢非常糟糕。我只是想問，在您看來，這更多的是關於網路品質的結構性問題嗎？也許回答這個問題的一種方法是，如果你可以在NPS 分數周圍提供一些顏色，因為你確實在VodafoneZiggo 報告中提到這些分數隨著你走向融合而改善，但KPN 上週基本上暗示[網絡學校] 對NPS 分數持負面態度。他們的競爭對手。關於封面書籍趨勢，我認為在同一份新聞稿中，您談到了推出具有更快網路速度的新封面書籍主張，以嘗試修復網路添加趨勢。所以也許你是如何考慮價值而不是數量的，因為顯然，如果每個人都關注價值，那對市場來說是件好事，但我讀到報告中的評論稍微轉向了數量。

And then on the Belgium side, just a quick question on the IT issues. Are these all fixed now? And should we start to see a recovery in net adds and commercial trends as you head into Q4?

然後是比利時方面，我簡單問了一個關於 IT 問題的問題。這些現在都修好了嗎？當進入第四季時，我們是否應該開始看到淨增加和商業趨勢的復甦？

I don't know if John is on, the short answer on the IT issue is yes. So the answer to your direct question is yes. And I don't know if -- Jeroan, if you're back on the call.

我不知道 John 是否在線，對於 IT 問題的簡短答案是肯定的。所以你的直接問題的答案是肯定的。我不知道——傑羅安，你是否又回來接電話了。

Yes, I am.

我是。

Yes, do you want to address the question?

是的，您想解決這個問題嗎？

Yes, the question on Netherlands.

是的，關於荷蘭的問題。

Yes, go ahead.

好，去吧。

Of course. The value of a volume question is super important, and let me try to build that story for you. And just to take you back to the quarter 3 results, what you have seen indeed is a drop in our net adds. I wouldn't say that's entirely by design, but it's important if you want to play the value game as we do, there's always a balancing between your customer numbers, your net adds versus your ARPU. So we have seen no churn in July, August than we normally see, and that's basically because we have done a few things. One of them is we increased our prices by 8.5% compared to, for instance, the year prior 3.5% and that also, therefore, means that you have more impacts, you have a little bit of a build shock with customers. It's important to note, however, that the reason customers churn is then cost, higher prices rather than the fact that they move to fiber. The market is, however, very competitive. And that's something that we have to deal with.

當然。數量問題的價值非常重要，讓我嘗試為您建立這個故事。讓你回到第三季的結果，你看到的確實是我們的淨增加的下降。我不會說這完全是設計使然，但如果您想像我們一樣玩價值遊戲，那麼重要的是，您的客戶數量、淨增加價值與 ARPU 之間始終保持平衡。因此，我們在 7 月、8 月並沒有看到比平常更多的客戶流失，這基本上是因為我們做了一些事情。其中之一是，與前一年相比，我們將價格提高了 8.5%，例如 3.5%，因此，這也意味著您會產生更大的影響，對客戶產生一些衝擊。然而，值得注意的是，客戶流失的原因是成本、更高的價格，而不是他們轉向光纖的事實。然而，市場競爭非常激烈。這是我們必須處理的事情。

If you look at the promotional level, KPN is still offering product plus type offers of free TVs or tablets and what have you, and Odido, formerly T-Mobile, recent offer is 8 months, EUR 35 for broadband and TV connection, which is very, very aggressive. So you see that dynamic. We try not to play that. Occasionally, we have to move into that, but we try to stay away from it. But very important, linked to your point about front book, back book, I want to be very clear. We were the first this year to go to market with a fixed price increase of 8.5%, which was the highest price increase and fixed in the market on both the front book and the back book. APN then a couple of months later, went to the market with a price increase that was a little bit lower, 6.4%, but that was only for the back book and not only did they not increase the front book, they actually decreased the pricing in the front book by 5%. That creates the delta basically our back book, our base versus their front book, i.e., what people see in the market of about 13.5%.

如果你看看促銷層面，KPN 仍在提供免費電視或平板電腦等產品加類型優惠，而 Odido（前身為 T-Mobile）最近的優惠是 8 個月，寬頻和電視連接 35 歐元，這是非常非常具有侵略性。所以你看到了這種動態。我們盡量不這麼做。有時，我們不得不進入這個領域，但我們會盡量遠離它。但非常重要的是，與您關於前書、後書的觀點相關，我想非常清楚。我們今年是第一個上市的，固定漲價8.5%，這是市場上最高的漲價，封面和封底都是固定的。幾個月後，APN 進入市場，價格上漲了一點點，6.4%，但這只是後書，他們不僅沒有增加前書，實際上還降低了定價在前面的書裡增加了5%。這基本上創造了我們的底帳、我們的基礎與他們的底帳的增量，即人們在市場上看到的約 13.5%。

That is a very clear, let's say, that's why you see the difference, but we do genuinely go for value. We have, therefore, increased our ARPU this year so far by 4.5%. We have a leading ARPU on fixed of EUR 56. And for the first time in 2 years, this has helped us actually get consumer fixed back to marginal growth in the third quarter. So to your point, we are definitely playing a value game and not a volume game. I hope that gives you a bit of background there.

這是非常明顯的，這就是為什麼你會看到差異，但我們確實追求價值。因此，今年迄今我們的 ARPU 已增加 4.5%。我們的固網 ARPU 處於領先地位，為 56 歐元。兩年來首次，這幫助我們在第三季度使固網消費者恢復到邊際增長。所以就你的觀點而言，我們肯定是在玩價值遊戲，而不是數量遊戲。我希望這能為您提供一些背景知識。

(inaudible) just so I'm clear though, on the actual commentary in the report when you talked about the launch of a new front book proposition. Is that just a range of different tariff changes? Or is it actually a price move that you're making in Q4? Just...

（聽不清楚）不過，當您談到推出新的前書提案時，我很清楚報告中的實際評論。這只是一系列不同的關稅變化嗎？或者這實際上是您在第四季度做出的價格變動？只是...

Yes, it's a very good question. It may be a bit too detailed to go into, but obviously, happy to speak offline or maybe Ritchy can do that, our CFO. But we have made a small adjustment to our front book, which is basically 1 or 2 tariffs that we made a slight adjustment because we were too far out of skills and to be 13.5% more expensive than the incumbent is simply too much. And we've also given our customers more value. And that's the most important point. So we only made one small tweak on the pricing, but we get customers more value by giving them higher speeds and for new customers, for instance, a better WiFi in the house. So we're trying to give customers more value rather than lower the price?

是的，這是一個非常好的問題。這可能有點太詳細了，無法詳細討論，但顯然，我們很樂意離線發言，或者我們的財務長里奇（Ritchy）也許可以做到這一點。但我們對我們的前書做了一個小調整，基本上是我們對 1 或 2 個關稅進行了小幅調整，因為我們的技術水平太高，而且比現任者貴 13.5% 實在是太多了。我們也為客戶提供了更多價值。這是最重要的一點。因此，我們只對定價做了一個小調整，但我們透過為客戶提供更高的速度來為客戶帶來更多價值，例如，為新客戶提供更好的室內 WiFi。那我們是在努力為客戶提供更多價值而不是降低價格？

Yes. I think that addresses it. Thanks, Josh. Look, we're over time. So I want to thank everybody for hanging in there if you're still on, and obviously, we appreciate you listening and asking good questions. I'm glad we were able to get a good 50 minutes or so of questions, and I could get more of the executives involved, that's always helpful. We're busy, but we can't wait to talk to you in February on our next earnings call. And so we'll speak to you then. Thanks, everybody. Take care.

是的。我認為這解決了這個問題。謝謝，喬許。瞧，我們已經超時了。因此，我要感謝大家堅持不懈，如果你們還在的話，顯然，我們感謝你們傾聽並提出好問題。我很高興我們能夠回答 50 分鐘左右的問題，而且我可以讓更多的高階主管參與進來，這總是有幫助的。我們很忙，但我們迫不及待地想在二月份的下一次財報電話會議上與您交談。那我們接下來會和你談談。謝謝大家。小心。

Ladies and gentlemen, that concludes Liberty Global's Third Quarter 2023 Investor Call. As a reminder, a replay of the call will be available in the Investor Relations section of Liberty Global's website. There, you can also find a copy of today's presentation materials.

女士們、先生們，Liberty Global 2023 年第三季投資人電話會議到此結束。請注意，Liberty Global 網站的投資者關係部分將提供電話會議的重播。在那裡，您還可以找到今天演示材料的副本。