IRSA Inversiones y Representaciones SA (IRS) 2024 Q4 法說會逐字稿

Good morning, everyone. I am Santiago Donato, Investor Relations Officer of IRSA, and I welcome you to the fiscal year 2024 results conference call. First of all, I would like to remind you that both audio and slideshow may be accessed through company's Investor Relations website at www.irsa.com.ar by clicking on the banner webcast link. The following presentation and the earnings release are also available for download on the company website. (Operator Instructions)

Before we begin, I would like to remind you that this call is being recorded and that information discussed today may include forward-looking statements regarding the company's financial and operating performance. All projections are subject to risks and uncertainties and actual results may differ materially. Please refer to the detailed note in the company's earnings release regarding forward-looking statements. I will now turn the call over to Mr. Matias Ivan Gaivironsky, CFO.

Thank you for joining us today. This was a special year with two very different moments. Now, the first one was from July to December with a very high levels of consumption and acceleration of the inflation (technical difficulty) since Milei took office with a radical change in all the government policies where we saw this acceleration of consumption.

Here, we were able to achieve very good numbers. Rental adjusted EBITDA will reach a level of ARS171 billion. That was 8.8% above the same numbers of the previous year.

(technical difficulty) net income, we posted a loss of ARS23 billion that I will explain later, but is mainly related to the exposure of the fair value of our investment properties. It's a noncash effect that the change in the macroeconomic generated some volatility and losses in that line.

Also, we saw the year with very good levels of occupancy in both in offices, malls, and hotels. A strong activity in real estate, projects, and transactions during the year, where we sold some projects and we acquire -- launch new projects that Cruces will explain later.

Also during the year we were very aggressive distributing dividends and buying back shares. We paid a ARS119 billion in two tranches. The first tranche represented a yield of 13% and the second one, a yield of 7%. And also during the year, we bought shares for 4% of the total outstanding shares. Now, let me introduce Santiago Donato, our IRO to follow the presentation.

Thank you, Matias. Here, we can see some figures, some indicators for the shopping malls during the last year and evolution of our tenant real sales and occupancy as well. Well, fiscal year '24 ended slightly below 2023. This is in local currency adjusted by inflation, dropped 4.5% below mainly due to our first half of consumption growth, followed by a second half of contraction due to the acceleration of inflation and its impact on real wages and economic activity. This was driven by the change of government in the middle of the fiscal year in December.

But we are closing a good year when last year was a record in sales. Remember that there was a boost, while the inflation generates an acceleration of consumption as well. So 2023 was a record, and we are almost in the same levels, adjusted by inflation. So the year ended very well, and we are at start to see some signs of slight recovery in recent months, in August mainly. So we hope, in 2025, we can keep growing in terms of sales, shoppings, capturing inflation, and maintaining occupancy, and also growing in terms of flow of visitors.

98% occupancy is our historical record levels. So we're good even in this six months of this acceleration or contraction of consumption in Argentina. We kept the shoppings. We've all of the brands fully occupied.

Moving to offices. Well, we kept selling some additional assets during the last fiscal year as we have been doing in the last four since 2020. This year, we sold Suipacha Building, this was in the first quarter of a year; and three floors of Della Paolera. So we currently managed almost 59,000 square meter.

We sold 15 during the period. And we consolidate in mostly in the A-plus and A-category. Occupancy increased to almost 96% in the premium buildings above the average of the sector in Buenos Aires, while the average rents of the portfolio remained quite stable at levels of $25 per square meter per month.

Hotels, we maintain good rates per room and occupancy levels during the year during fiscal '24. Although, we have seen in the last quarter, a decline in international tourism, mainly due to lower FX competitiveness in Argentina. That is a challenge for the (inaudible) to keep maintaining these levels of occupancy and rates.

But the Hotel Llao Llao has been very it has been a major attraction of the high income segment in Argentina and the two hotels in Buenos. Aires, Libertador and the Continental are working to give new proposals and also waiting for the full recovery of the corporate events segment, but it still has margin to fully recover to pre-pandemic levels.

Occupancy remained stable at levels of 64%, average of the year. And rates increased to $243 from $217 per room. And this is mainly because of the increase in Llao Llao that is charging approximately $150 per room.

We are adding some other assets or other investments that IRSA owns. This is the entertainment exposure. We have. It's an indirect stake in La Rural, and the convention centers, Buenos Aires and Punta del Este, approximately 35%. This is a sector that -- it took more time to recover from the pandemic.

You're going to see in 2020, that was fully closed the whole year. It took like two or three years to recover to historical levels of occupancy. In the case of La Rural, where we have fair and event activity. This year La Rural could maintain the fair calendar and the number of visitors, but there was a reduced investment from exhibitors and contraction in public consumption in the [Stans] and services due to the deceleration of the activity, mainly in the second half.

In the case of the convention center, Buenos Aires, increased its number of its occupancy to a level of 36%, but it's still in the process of a fully recovering in this segment. It's not still fully recovered. We hope Argentina can be a good place for this -- for international and local congresses and corporate events, now that we are in a change of economic cycle, more opening to the world for the coming years.

La Rural, we obtained extension of concession until 2037 with an option to extend it for four years more until 2041. So good news for this investment, which is generating very good EBITDA this year and in the last year as well.

Regarding the ESG, we have a balance this year in the three lines, in environmental, social, and governance matters. We are included once again in the Buenos Aires stock market of BYMA. It highlights the 20 best performing listed Argentine companies in terms of ESG. We are paying this year, the LEED Gold Core and Shell certification of 261 Della Paolera, our latest development. And many companies, tenants are certifying it's interiors as well.

These adds to Zetta Building that had obtained the certification in 2019. So 72% of our premium buildings are LEED certified. And then we are working with seal -- a Green Seal. It's for waste management practices in our shoppings in Buenos Aires City. This is a program from BA city. We have already obtained the Green Seal for Alto Palermo, Patio Bullrich, and Alcorta.

On the social sides, we have done many volunteer programs and social activities in our offices. A lot of (technical difficulty) pass through our shopping malls in a year, more than 100 million visitors. So they are a very good place to set these type of activities and actions.

We invested around ARS500 million in different activities in our assets. And something important is that we -- last year, it was our anniversary of 75 years listed in Buenos Aires. This year, by December, we are going to celebrate the 30th anniversary in New York Stock Exchange. So the company continue working with high standards of corporate governance and is listed in the two markets, Buenos Aires and New York.

And this is our investments in appa. We have almost full -- almost 99% of stake here in appa. This is our loyalty app that enhance the shopping experience of our visitors, offering discounts, benefits linked to their preferences. And we can see the figures is growing in terms of registered users, in terms of accumulated transactions.

So we will keep complementing the [plan] of appa and the idea is to keep complementing the physical retail with the digitalization in order to offer all the solutions to visitors in our shopping malls through this app, that is the app of Argentina that is connecting this retail, both virtually and physically. So now we will give the word to Jorge Cruces, our CIO, for their real estate activity and prospects for the upcoming years.

Good morning, everybody. It's been an intensive year in terms of swaps and sales. (technical difficulty) We sold the Maple building, which was vacant at the time. Its a [building] acquired by IRSA in 1991, the parking spaces with a gross leasable area of around 11,500 square meters. The price was $6.75 million. $3 million were paid in cash and $750,000 in office units in a building nearby avenue right in front of our hotel at Ezpeleta.

Gross leasable area we have received is around 150 square meters. Then we sold -- on August 31st, we sold our 50% of our shareholding in Quality Invest. Quality Invest owns a property located in the city of San Martín, which was formerly the site of American British tobacco, the industrial plant.

It has a total area of 159 --160,000 square meters and a current built-up area of around 80,000 square meters. The transaction amount was $22.9 million of which $500 million was collected upon the transfer of shares. And the balance of $1.4 million will be paid in three years.

We (technical difficulty) a land, Ezpeleta, when we sold, though Republic building. We acquire that land for $60 million. And now we made a better agreement for $16.4 million with the people who have developed Quilmes (inaudible). Although at Quilmes, this is -- now it's going to be we will Quilmes those or to.

Through this border, we are receiving 125 single-family luxe and 40% of the multi-family luxe. The construction works have started. The trust has sold most of its single-family luxe, so we are starting to sell family luxe next October.

Del Plata building, well, we were part (technical difficulty) we are part of the trust. Most investors are firms close by to IRSA. So we made this choice and we acquire the building that involve to Banco Hipotecario, we did it through a border also. Banco Hipotecario is receiving 28.5 of the selling meters of the building. And we are going to be the developers of the other trusts -- with other trustees, but we are the developers and it's a downtown only a block away from the office next. It's next to the theaters. It's a great location and it's the whole city block.

Acquisitions, we made a great acquisition lately. Alto Avellaneda, right beside our shopping mall. We acquired most of the property beside it. A little part that we didn't acquire yet. We're trying to acquire that. But regarding the acquisition, the price was $12.2 million. We paid $8.2 million and the $3 million would be canceled with the transfer of the lease, which is still pending. The transfer on the existing lease contracts is still the original term, and we will be renting to a supermarket for the next three years. The supermarket actually were the ones who sold the property. So that's like a sale leaseback regarding the supermarket.

The total square area is almost 87,000 square meters and we acquired more than 32,000 built square meters. I think this is a great acquisition and well, this allows us to make decisions regarding the parking. This allows us the future to build. You need to unify on both flats and make a lot of development because both must have a lot of players have more squares to be developed.

Regarding Ramblas, well, actually there's been the event in the Hilton where we renamed -- what we used to become -- had another -- let me announce we're calling it Ramblas del Plata. Ramblas del Plata, today, we have the total lease, the total lease already signed, transferring ownership to the city of four plots of land three plots along Avellaneda final, and creating the 61 laps for IRSA to sell.

With this asset. We fulfilled the process of creating land registrations in the industrial database of the city. We're sharing the title of ownership and enable IRSA to transfer the plots. Environmental public hearings, starting today. It will last three days in a row because there's 128 registered speakers. And as soon as we get relied to the environmental permits, we will be breaking ground.

Ramblas del Plata, it used to be called Costa Urbana. And we have a lot of residential projects to launch in the near future. What, as I said before, is that Costa Urbana is -- through the trust we have the development of 720 apartments, there's going to be an event in [Casa Form]. So we will be launching the brand -- the apartments through the exhibition.

Nexo Dot, the project is located between the Dutch shopping center and the SETA building. The program includes two towers with five levels of housing, two levels of office space and a commercial Esplanade that links the shopping Dot with a seta building. It has 7,000 of housing square meters to sell. We talked about the project in La Plata. There's going to be a mall in La Plata but there's also going to be 15 laps to be sold. Its -- the block is located in large block of about eight hectares in the most important supplies on center of the city of La Plata.

In the area, there's two large supermarkets and a home center. The program is a lot -- the lot was subdivided 18 lots, of which two of them will be public squares, the largest for this shopping center and the rest of the 15 lots will have 78,000 square meters to be developed to be mostly residential, but also it allows hotels, office buildings, and medical centers. We also have Manzana Dicinco -- Manzana Dicinco are three towers, there will be 500 apartments, which are 31,500 selling square meters (sic -- see presentation, "30,000 saleable square meters"). We've completed the concrete of the tower called tower number three, and we're continuing with construction.

Now I'm going to give the floor back to our CFO, Mr. Matias Gaivironsky.

Thank you Cruces. Regarding our investment in Banco Hipotecario, remember that we control 29% of the shares and we have a very good year. The results that Banco Hipotecario generated two years have reached almost ARS30 billion compared with ARS11 billion last year. We saw a very good evolution of the shares in the market from ARS46.9 last September to the current ARS407.

The market cap or the market value of Banco Hipotecario two years today is around $138 million. So recovered significantly since last year. Also the bank distributed dividends for first time in the last several years, we received -- (inaudible) received ARS13.6 billion, Banco Hipotecario distributed a total amount of ARS45.6 billion. The bank is in very good shape, very good number, return on equity -- the liquidity levels are in very good levels. The non-profitable losses -- sorry, the non-performing losses also are in very low numbers.

So we are very happy with the evolution of the operations of funds. Hipotecario also there is something that was a game changer for real estate this year. That was the launching of new mortgages -- mortgage loans to the public. Banco Hipotecario was the first bank to launch new lines of grades than around most of the banks in Argentina also follow Banco Hipotecario Guyana started to announce new lines. That is started to happen, still some process, and it's not so fast, but there are many banks that today are offering mortgages to the public that we believe that, that together with the fiscal amnesty that the government is implementing, that can boost, reinstate definitely.

Will if you go to the next page. We can see we are in our financial results that always we started with to see what happened with the main variables on the macro side. It was a very volatile year with an acceleration of inflation and devaluation. You can see on the left part that the nominal effects, there was a devaluation of 255% with an inflation in the center that was 272%. That means that the real effects appreciated 4% during the year, 5% last year, but that the evolution during the quarter was completely different, that generate volatility in our results and that we can see later.

Also regarding the blue-chip swap, the nominal MEP, also there's a lot of mix also there was a de-valuation of 179% comparable with inflation of 272%. That means that was an appreciation also of 25% in this year compared with the previous year at 10%.

So if we go to the next page, you can see on the adjusted EBITDA side, as I mentioned, very positive numbers surpassing last year by 8.8% on the rental, EBITDA 4.6% was our shopping malls, 4.1%, our offices, and 52%, our hotels. Now hotels are significantly comparable with our offices. It used to be our third segment. Today is our second segment in terms of cash generation. So we can see an improvement in margins, shopping malls was 76.4%, offices, 81.7%, and hotels, 34.4%.

Well, the operating income also improved significantly to 87%. And then when we see the main driver of the losses this year is the change in the fair value of the investment properties. This is a non cash line. As you know that under IFRS we would recognize the fair value of our investment properties. For shopping malls, we are using a DCF model since there are no comparables in the market, there are no transactions of shopping malls in the market. So we use a DCF model.

And for offices in the (inaudible), we are using comparables since we can see a comparable transactions for our the kind of assets that we have. And that since we value that in pesos at the blue chip swap. And we saw in the last slide, that was an appreciation in real terms that generate losses. If we see the numbers in dollar terms, the number is broadly the same than the previous year. There are no appreciation or impairments in our offices on (inaudible). But when we convert that in real pesos, we see a significant loss.

Regarding our shopping malls, when we see the evolution, there was an appreciation in dollar terms compared with March. And with June last year that is basically related to a better performance in pesos terms and lower exchange rate going forward. That means that we are generating more bonus and that improve the DCF model and that improve the value of our assets. But again, it's a non-cash effect that we will post every quarter according to the evolution of the inflation and devaluation.

Regarding our net financial results, we are posting a gain of ARS93 billion compared with ARS57.7 billion last year. If you see the table below their fair value of financial assets and liabilities, we are posting an important gain. This is related to the liquidity, our cash liquidity that we invested in securities and improve significantly valuations. So we are posting an important gain. Net interest, we are seeing a reduction. There we have some accounting effects.

If we see the evolution of the net debt, net debt is similar than a year ago. Interest payments are slightly below, so we have a reduction on interest. But when see the comparison with last year of ARS41.1 billion against this ARS5.4 billion is related more with the evolution of the interest rates and the inflation. That's a rate that we are paying less interest payments, less coupons done inflation that generate gains in the counting treatment. The net FX result is positive because our dollar denominated debt we are converting was on the beneficial software appreciation during the year. So that generate gains that adds the other important effect.

Regarding the income tax line here, we have, again, some non-cash effects last year, according some ruling of the Supreme Court that allow some of the companies in Argentina to adjust tax grade by inflation last year that generated an important gain that was on one shot effect. This year, the gain is more related to the par value of our investment properties. At every time that we post losses, we post a gain on deferred taxes, and that is by ARS57 billion related to that.

We are paying income taxes in some of our subsidiaries, but still at year's salary this year, we haven't paid income taxes. We have tax credits. Well with all of that, we finished the year with a net result of posted losses of ARS23 million attributable to our controlling interest is PHP18.4 billion negative.

If we see dollar terms of our rental EBITDA, we see that we are in very good levels, $163 million of cash generation that you'll see that the year what happened that we were very aggressive in dividend payments and buybacks. So we have a very conservative debt structure with very low leverage and still generating very good dose of cash. We haven't been aggressive on CapEx plan on new projects. So that CapEx was very -- almost of free cash flow for the company.

Yes, the net debt evolution. We have been talking about this, when we compare last year with this year almost the same of having paying around $107 million of dividends. So we used most of the cash to pay dividends on that debt in very low levels.

Regarding the debt amortization schedule going forward, we have some debt during the year, $184 million. We feel very comfortable with our existing cash levels and liquidity and also with the low leverage and access for trade, IRSA has plenty of credit lines today available in the local market and also with deals that we start to see some activity in international markets for some of the major companies of Argentina. So we feel very comfortable to manage the debt situation going forward.

During the year, we issued some market in June, we issued $42 million in two tranches, one in pesos, one in dollars, very convenient interest rate of 6%. So at least we will be the market going forward. As I mentioned to date, the dividend payments the last year, during fiscal year 23, we paid $64 million. This is at the blue-chip swap. This year was $117 million, dividend yield, 12% at the beginning of the year, and 7% in May.

We will announce the dividend proposal to our shareholders meeting probably next week. So we expect to keep paying dividends next week, we will announce the amount that we would suggest to dollar shareholders meeting that will be on October. I'd say about our share repurchase programs. During the year, we learned three different programs. Altogether, we bought 4% of our shares that represent an investment of $38 million at the official exchange rate, $23 million are the blue-chip swap. So the average purchase price so far was $8.88 per GDS. And so we are very happy to allocate part of our liquidity to keep buying back shares.

So with this, we finish the fourth quarter presentation. Now we open the line to receive your questions. Thank you very much.

Santiago. You're on mute.

Sorry. Here, we started with the Q&A session. I do have a question, please use the chat. We will take them in the order we receive them. We have some questions in the chat. The first one from Marina Merchants of Lapping Securities. The Eurobond funding code in the city of Buenos Aires is currently being reviewed. How do you think this situation will develop and what impact could it have on your prospects?

I think this is for you Cruces.

Well, the mayor well, when he was in during the election, he talked a lot about this. So I believe there should be some changes in the future. Now the changes he's mentioned during the election and the changes we're seeing in the drafts, are certain parts of the city that we don't have on projects, which shouldn't be a problem for us. But then again, not only that I don't think that's going to affect us, but most of our projects already approved. So these are for new projects. The changes are going to be for the new projects. Most of our projects are already approved. So it shouldn't be a problem for us. But I do believe there's going to be a new city plan program.

We have another question regarding Costa Urbana. If IRSA will join national investors or falling back doors or IRSA will look for financing for development alone or -- ?

First of all, we have to change the name, though we are confusing a little, investors, we used to call it Costa Urbana and today is Ramblas, Ramblas del Plata del Plata is final commercial name of the project.

So we are very happy to announce the name and starting the commercialization. As we always mention, this is a huge project. It's not today a single project. Today, like Cruces mentioned, 61 plot of land, different plot of land that we can do different transactions. We can develop ourselves or we can do swap transactions. So we can sell units or we can presell units from finance clients. So there are many different sources of financing. Probably the most likely that you will see in the coming weeks or months is that IRSA will try to start doing some swap transactions with developers.

In that regard, IRSA has not allied or we don't have to put money because the developers will do the investment and we will receive units as part of the payment. So it's like we will swap the land for final units. We don't think that we will finance this as a project finance. Is much more likely that we will finance each block of land if we need the resources. Definitely we will invest in the infrastructure of the project at the beginning, we committed to the city, so they employ around $40 million in infrastructure, that we need to start commercializing the different plot of lands.

But then I imagine that the financing will be at IRSA level and not at the project level, at least at the beginning. And as I mentioned, we are not thinking in high exposure in the beginning of the project since developers will do their work. I don't know, Jorge, if you want to add something else?

Well, in the commercial point of view, we had the expert real estate at the Hilton when we launched the project, it was very successful. People were very interested mostly on local developers. And we are talking with most of the Argentinian developers at the moment for this first stage. And we are very confident that this first stage is going to be very successful and what some regional investors are also starting to get interest.

So I believe regarding the question, if we're going to we have other foreign investors or developers, I do believe, but in maybe the near future. In the meantime, we're mostly speaking with local developers, and we're very happy regarding how the real estate expo work out. So we have a lot of expectations and we think that in our next webcast, we can be starting to give good news regarding this project.

There were some additional questions regarding Ramblas del Plata here. If you could repeat the amount of investment of infrastructure in the short term? I think has Matias has mentioned that.

$40 million.

But it's not $20 million total investment return in the short term because we have like three big stages of the development. So $40 million for all three stages. It's not only for the first such event. It's there in the short term, okay.

Here there is a question from George Foreman that what kind of total development capital is needed for the whole Ramblas del Plata project and the time involved? Difficult to answer that.

It's very difficult to answer cost in Argentina, construction has changed has changed a lot lately. So we don't know it's going to be a project. They're going to take more than 15 years, primarily.

So the investment in infrastructures and I take in those three stages and we were not going to have developers as master developers would have developers developing buildings in our land. And we are going to be doing developments of ourselves. So I think that number is very difficult to say at the moment because we don't know exactly how many developments are we going to do by ourselves.

But we're going to have a lot of partners. As Matias has said before, we're going to have different interest in different buildings with different partners. And so we can't answer that question at the moment, I don't know. But yes, I don't know Matias, if you have anything more intelligent to say that?

To give some sort of size, this 900,000 square meters cost of construction today, it's hard to say because this is not just a fault. It's a nicer picture when you start when you finish, but roughly today in Argentina, we are talking about $1,500 per square meter of construction that give you a sense of the total size of the project. But about that, that's as we mentioned, we want to invest all the money now will be a combination of different players, but roughly it's a project of more than $1.3 billion, $1.4 billion.

One more question regarding projects, Manzana Dicinco, when do you expect to initiate to begin the construction works?

As I said before, we already finished the concrete of tower number three, actually we started with Tower number 3, but that's the way it's in the plans of the city plans called Tower number 3. So we have already started. We already finished the concrete and we're continuing with Tower number 3. Number 1 and 2 we didn't start yet. So we're continuing with that construction.

Perfect. Then there is a question related to sales. If you into the company intend to continue selling down the office portfolio? And a question on if we plan to hold Banco Hipotecario stake as well? So I think that's a mixed answer.

Regarding the office buildings, actually one of the projects that we have that I said, it's mostly residential we're planning and building office buildings continuing. And certainly that would have more office buildings in SETA somewhat, at least as construction doing new constructions, maybe in La Plata, we would have some office buildings also, but we have only three floors at Intercontinental Plaza. So we're willing to sell those three floors. We still have floors here in Catalina.

So I don't think it makes sense to have only four floors. So we should be selling the floors we have in these two buildings and but we don't have the attention in the meantime, in the short term to be selling SETA, we have the whole building. So I would say that selling office space should be what we have left in the InterContinental in right here in Catalina.

Regarding Banco Hipotecario, Matias, let us know if you want to answer that question?

Santiago, can you repeat that question?

Yes, with respect to keep that investment, the staking bucket of Banco Hipotecario?

Yes, yes, we have had since 1997.

The late 90s. Good. Then there are some questions coming from an anonymous attendee. I would ask for the future, if you can register. So we have your name to be able to answer, but they all are around related to capital allocation. Perhaps, Matias, can give you some color on what the company expects in terms of future dividends, the leverage, buyback programs. How do you think to allocate that?

I think that's summarized all these questions.

Okay. I believe that the last three years were very extraordinary years in terms of the capital allocation. If you analyze, we haven't allowed launched new projects during those years. So we haven't started any significant development. The last one was in 2020, we finished in 2020. That was the Catalina projects. Since then we were buying some opportunities in the market. So we bought some projects, but the very opportunistic prices, but we haven't launched new project that need CapEx or capital allocation. So the last three years, we were very focused on our own capital structure, allocating a lot of cash to reduce debt. We still we saw a huge opportunity to reduce debt since 2020. Today, we think that -- I think that we are very levered. So broadly going forward would have a little higher level of debt.

And also regarding dividends and buybacks, we are limited by law that we can buy up to certain levels of the liquidity in the market. So we have been implementing different programs during the year, but having in mind that restriction, but then we pay dividends to give the opportunity to our shareholders if they believe that there is a good opportunity to buy shares as well. They combined with the liquidity that we are paying.

And again, we feel very comfortable with the level of debt today. The company keep generating very good levels of cash and the CapEx needs are not so significant today, no broadly going forward. And something that we've targeted to communicate is that the IRSA brand will start again in a new stage of development. And we have plenty of land available on different projects to launch, but we are conservative in terms of our offer and demand.

So if we see good demand, we can accelerate. And if we see good results, with deals we will accelerate, but it's not we won't run and be aggressive on the CapEx if we are not sure about the profitability of the projects. But if I have to separate, I would say that probably the last three years were very exceptional in terms of capital allocation that were 100% allocated to our own capital structure.

Going forward, I believe that we will see IRSA investing in new projects. But keeping -- paying dividends, would like to pay dividends. So every year, so if we have the liquidity and the results today we will keep paying.

And also the buybacks is something that if we see like today, we believe that there is a huge discount in our shares against NAV. We will keep buying shares as well.

Perfect. Well, here there is a question, I think what you have already answered from Esteban from financing and expansion. Do you plan to tap the global debt markets or left to refinance debt and accelerate the development projects?

I don't think that we will tap the international governmental market in the near future. We don't need the size of that kind of financing of the international capital market. If you need to issue USD300 million of debt and we don't need that. So I'll probably will continue in the local market that structurally always our structure that was always in the international market. So we will see in the future if we see an opportunity. But today we don't need it done on. And we believe that our lower interest rate in Argentina rather than the international market comparably the size of the debt that we need. We don't need -- if you have $300 million, we need transaction of $30 million, $40 million. So we can manage with the banks and the local market debt. By the half of that having in mind that there's a house access. If we need to the international market, our bonds in the international market are trading very well. That means that people like our grades.

Yes.

Well, there are some additional questions with Cresude -- George Cresude. Is the controlling shareholder.

IRSA, today has a stake of 55.4%. It's an agribusiness company operating in the region that the controlling shareholder of IRSA.

The last one from George Foreman is related to the political outlook. How do we see or think Milei will -- he will be able to bring Argentina back to the forefront, what Argentina belongs? That's more subjective but --

Size of our personal opinion that a company opinion. I hope to see you go. There was a good environment in Argentina helped to see any resuming investment on and showing the number another kind of macroeconomic situation last year. The last many years in RMB, our revenue, the volatile and very counting and taking decisions to invest long term capital. In that environment is very complicated. That is the reason why a company like yours that is the main real estate company of the country was conservative, launching new projects.

So we hope to see a good performance of the new administration. They are putting effort trying to ordering the economy to put the narrative of the economy, reducing inflation, reducing the deficit. That is a significant deal, a significant achievement for foreign country. So we hope to see that to continue. And I have a lot of faith in Milei. So at least my personal opinion.

Thank you. Thank you, Matias, and thank you all for joining and for all the questions. We like to be again in the map in the world and having a lot of questions and participation from investors and analysts. So we can close this fiscal year presentation. We see you next quarter, and I will give some of the work to Matias again for his last closing remarks.

Well, thank you. And then not so many more to add that we are very happy with the results. There was a good numbers in all the gaming operations, real estate transactions, new process allowance, very healthy in their financial situation, very active, executing all kinds of financial transactions. So we are happy with the performance so far, and we hope to continue in this trend and see Argentina in a good trend as well. So thank you very much again for your participation. And I hope to see you soon. Thank you very much.

See you all. Bye.