Franklin BSP Realty Trust Inc (FBRT) 2024 Q4 法說會逐字稿

Hello and welcome to the Franklin BSP Realty Trust Fourth quarter 2024 earnings conference call. (Operator instructions)

您好，歡迎參加富蘭克林 BSP 房地產信託 2024 年第四季財報電話會議。（操作員指令）

I would now like to hand the conference over to Lindsey Crabbe.

現在我想將會議交給 Lindsey Crabbe。

Good morning. Thank you, MJ, for hosting our call today. Welcome to the FBRT 4th quarter of 2024 earnings conference call. As the operator mentioned, I'm Lindsey Crabbe. With me on the call today are Richard Byrne, Chairman and CEO of FBRT, Jerry Baglien, Chief Financial Officer and Chief Operating Officer of FBRT, and Michael Comparato, President of FBRT.

早安.感謝 MJ 今天主持我們的電話會議。歡迎參加 FBRT 2024 年第四季財報電話會議。正如接線員所說，我是 Lindsey Crabbe。今天與我一起參加電話會議的還有 FBRT 董事長兼執行長 Richard Byrne、FBRT 財務長兼營運長 Jerry Baglien 以及 FBRT 總裁 Michael Comparato。

Before we begin, I want to mention that some of today's comments are forward-looking statements and are based on certain assumptions. Those comments and assumptions are subject to inherent risks and uncertainties as described in our most recently filed SEC periodic reports, and actual future results may differ materially.

在我們開始之前，我想提一下，今天的一些評論是前瞻性的陳述，並且基於某些假設。這些評論和假設受我們最近提交給美國證券交易委員會的定期報告中所述的固有風險和不確定性的影響，實際未來結果可能存在重大差異。

The information conveyed on this call is current only as of the date of this call, February 14, 2025. The company assumes no obligation to update any statements made during this call, including any forward-looking statements, whether as a result of new information, future events, or otherwise, except as required by law. Additionally, we will refer to certain non-GAAP financial measures which are reconciled to GAAP figures in our earnings release and supplementary slide deck, each of which are available on our website at www.fbrtreit.com. We will refer to the supplementary slide deck on today's call. With that, I'll turn it over to Richard Byrne.

本次電話會議中傳達的訊息僅截至本次電話會議日期（2025 年 2 月 14 日）有效。除非法律另有規定，否則本公司不承擔更新本次電話會議中所做的任何聲明（包括任何前瞻性聲明）的義務，無論是由於新資訊、未來事件或其他原因。此外，我們將在收益報告和補充幻燈片中引用某些與 GAAP 數據相協調的非 GAAP 財務指標，這些指標均可在我們的網站 www.fbrtreit.com 上查閱。我們將在今天的電話會議上參考補充幻燈片。說完這些，我會把話題交給理查伯恩 (Richard Byrne)。

Great, thanks, Lindsey, and good morning everyone and thank you for joining us today. As Lindsey mentioned, our earnings release and supplemental deck were published to our website yesterday. We're going to begin today's call on slide four. We're going to review our 4th quarter results and then we'll open up the call as always to your questions.

太好了，謝謝你，林賽，大家早安，謝謝你們今天加入我們。正如 Lindsey 所提到的，我們的收益報告和補充文件昨天已發佈在我們的網站上。我們將從第四張投影片開始今天的通話。我們將回顧第四季度的業績，然後像往常一樣回答您的問題。

Jerry will cover our financial results, and Mike will discuss market conditions, our watch list, and our REO portfolio. I'm going to highlight key developments from both the fourth quarter and the full year of 2024. With that, maybe just to start, we continue to view our portfolio into three buckets loans originated post-interest rate hikes, loans originated pre-interest rate hikes, and office loans. First, let's discuss post-interest rate hike loans. In 2024, we originated $2 billion.

傑瑞將介紹我們的財務業績，麥克將討論市場狀況、我們的關註名單和我們的 REO 投資組合。我將重點介紹第四季和 2024 年全年的關鍵發展。從此開始，我們繼續將我們的投資組合分為三個部分：升息後發放的貸款、加息前發放的貸款和辦公室貸款。首先我們來討論加息後的貸款。2024年，我們籌集了20億美元。

In new loan commitments, including 441 in the fourth quarter. Last quarter, we began tracking the percentage of our portfolio that has been originated since January 2023, reflecting current interest rates and valuations, including originations through January 2025. 52% of our portfolio is loans originated post-in interest rate hikes. We believe this is a very important statistic because these are some of the most attractive loans that we have originated in years. We are originating in the current vintage with relatively low competition. This has enabled us to add high quality borrowers and loans with low LTVs to our book.

在新的貸款承諾中，第四季有441筆。上個季度，我們開始追蹤自 2023 年 1 月以來的投資組合百分比，反映了當前的利率和估值，包括截至 2025 年 1 月的貸款發放。我們投資組合中的 52% 是加息後發放的貸款。我們認為這是一個非常重要的統計數據，因為這是我們多年來發放的最具吸引力的貸款。我們正處於當前年份，競爭相對較低。這使我們能夠將高品質的借款人和低 LTV 的貸款添加到我們的帳簿中。

Okay, as for pre Rate hike loans. Our high quality predominantly multi-family legacy portfolio provides us with a lot of flexibility and negotiating leverage as borrowers approach maturity. Many of our 2021 and 2022 vintage loans have been repaid. In fact, we've received $1.1 billion of full payoffs from this vintage in this past year in 2024. In other cases, we are actively pursuing modifications with borrowers. To improve our debt position. In some cases, of course, we must take properties as real estate owned, stabilize the asset, and then sell. We are confident that we will achieve better outcomes even if we need to endure some near-term earnings drag while waiting to maximize recovery.

好的，至於升息前的貸款。我們的高品質、以多戶型為主的遺留投資組合在藉款人接近到期時為我們提供了很大的靈活性和談判籌碼。我們的許多 2021 年和 2022 年貸款已償還。事實上，我們在 2024 年就已經收到了 11 億美元的該年份的全部收益。在其他情況下，我們正在積極與借款人一起尋求修改方案。改善我們的債務狀況。當然，在某些情況下，我們必須將房產視為自有房地產，穩定資產，然後再出售。我們相信，即使在等待最大程度復甦的同時我們需要忍受一些短期盈利拖累，我們也將取得更好的結果。

Lastly, regarding the office sector, after two office loan payoffs in Q4, both were at par and excluding our largest office loan, which is a triple net leased headquarters and distribution facility, our traditional multi-tenant office exposure at year end was only 2.3%. Of our total portfolio. Importantly, this remaining exposure has been significantly marked down in previous quarters to reflect current market conditions.

最後，關於辦公大樓領域，在第四季度償還兩筆辦公大樓貸款後，兩筆貸款均持平，且不包括我們最大的辦公大樓貸款（三重淨租賃總部和配送設施），我們年底的傳統多租戶辦公大樓風險敞口僅為 2.3%。我們全部的投資組合。重要的是，為反映當前的市場狀況，此剩餘風險敞口在前幾季已大幅下調。

While we did not reach dividend coverage this quarter, we believe that our current dividend level is appropriate given the future earnings potential embedded in our REO and non-performing loans. Despite a very active origination year, our portfolio remains flat to 2023, ending the year at $5.0 billion of principal balance. Our 2024 or originations were offset by $1.6 billion in repayments. These repayments, of course, are a blessing and a curse, but we are always happy to see pre-rate pre-rate loans repay in full.

雖然本季我們沒有達到股息覆蓋率，但我們認為，考慮到我們的 REO 和不良貸款所蘊含的未來獲利潛力，我們目前的股息水平是合適的。儘管今年的發起非常活躍，但我們的投資組合到 2023 年仍將保持平穩，年底的本金餘額為 50 億美元。我們的 2024 年或初始貸款被 16 億美元的還款所抵銷。當然，這些還款是好事也是壞事，但我們總是樂於看到預先貸款能全額償還。

We ended the year with $535 million in liquidity, including $184 million in unrestricted cash. We continue to strategically invest our liquidity in new assets to further enhance FBRT's earnings. Currently, 151 of our 155 positions are risk rated two or three, resulting in an overall risk rating of 2.3.

截至年底，我們的流動資金為 5.35 億美元，其中包括 1.84 億美元的非限制現金。我們繼續將我們的流動資金策略性地投資於新資產，以進一步提高 FBRT 的收益。目前，我們 155 個部位中，151 個的風險評級為二級或三級，整體風險評級為 2.3。

As of quarter end, our watch list makes up 3.8% of our portfolio and consists of four names a net increase of one name during the quarter. A specific Cecil charge was taken on the five rated loan that was added. However, the new five rated loan was foreclosed on in Q1 in 2025 and has already sold above our debt basis. This reduces the watch lists to 2.3% of our portfolio.

截至季末，我們的關註名單占我們投資組合的 3.8%，由四個名字組成，本季淨增加一個名字。對新增的五級貸款徵收特定的塞西爾費用。然而，新的五級貸款在 2025 年第一季被取消贖回權，並且已經以高於我們的債務基礎的價格出售。這使得關註名單減少到我們投資組合的 2.3%。

Jerry will cover this in more detail and Mike will provide more detailed update on the remaining watch list assets as well as our REO portfolio. Lastly for me, we remain confident in FBRT's portfolio. In 2025 we are focusing on really two things actively managing our legacy loan portfolio and pursuing portfolio originations. We see significant opportunities in new originations as demonstrated by the $3.6 billion we have originated across our real estate platform in 2024.

Jerry 將更詳細地介紹這一點，而 Mike 將提供有關剩餘關註名單資產以及我們的 REO 投資組合的更詳細更新。最後，對我來說，我們仍然對 FBRT 的投資組合充滿信心。2025 年，我們主要關注兩件事：積極管理我們的遺留貸款組合和追求投資組合發起。我們在新業務發起中看到了巨大的機遇，這一點從我們在 2024 年透過房地產平台發起的 36 億美元就可以看出。

And with that, I'll hand it over to Jerry.

說完這些，我就把麥克風交給傑瑞。

Thanks Rich, and thanks everybody for being on the call today. Moving on to our results, let's start on slide five. FBRT reported GAAP earnings of $0.29 and $0.82 per diluted common share for the fourth quarter, and the year ended 2024. Distributable earnings were $0.30 and $0.92 for diluted common share for the fourth quarter in the year end in 2024.

謝謝 Rich，也謝謝大家今天的電話會議。讓我們繼續討論結果，從第五張投影片開始。FBRT 公佈第四季和 2024 財年的 GAAP 收益分別為每股 0.29 美元和 0.82 美元。2024 年年末第四季可分配收益為 0.30 美元，稀釋普通股收益為 0.92 美元。

Earnings were negatively affected by our non-accrual loans and REO positions. We did make progress in decreasing the book value attributable to our REO portfolio, which declined by approximately $63 million through asset sales in the fourth quarter. In addition, after the quarter end, we sold another REO asset for $63.8 million. This is the asset Rich mentioned. We had an assets specific reserve in Q4 of $0.03 per common share related to that asset. Our sale ended up being above our debt basis. Our REO and non-performing loans will continue to impact distributable earnings in the short term.

我們的非應計貸款和 REO 部位對收益產生了負面影響。我們確實在降低 REO 投資組合的帳面價值方面取得了進展，該投資組合的帳面價值在第四季度透過資產出售減少了約 6,300 萬美元。此外，季度結束後，我們以 6,380 萬美元的價格出售了另一項 REO 資產。這就是 Rich 提到的資產。我們在第四季擁有與該資產相關的每股普通股 0.03 美元的資產專用儲備。我們的銷售額最終高​​於我們的債務基礎。我們的 REO 和不良貸款將在短期內繼續影響可分配收益。

As we continue to resolve REO and put that equity back to work, we believe we could generate an additional $25 to $0.30 to our distributable earnings on an annual basis. While that may take a few more quarters to fully resolve, we are confident that our earnings power is within range of our current dividend level. Our book value was $15.19 per fully converted common share.

隨著我們繼續解決 REO 問題並讓股權重新發揮作用，我們相信我們每年可以為我們的可分配收益額外創造 25 至 0.30 美元。雖然這個問題可能還需要幾個季度才能完全解決，但我們相信我們的獲利能力在目前的股息水準範圍內。我們的每股完全轉換普通股的帳面價值為 15.19 美元。

At year end. Changes to our general and assets specific reserves combined combined with dividends exceeding other earnings led to a slight decrease in book value in the fourth quarter. Turning to slide seven, this is an overview of our origination activity for the quarter. We originated $441 million in new loan commitments during the quarter, primarily in the multi-family sector, which comprised 68% of our fourth quarter activity.

年底。我們的一般和資產專用儲備金的變化加上股息超過其他收益導致第四季度帳面價值略有下降。翻到第七張投影片，這是本季我們發起活動的概要。我們在本季發放了 4.41 億美元的新貸款承諾，主要集中在多戶型住宅領域，占我們第四季活動的 68%。

We received $641 million in loan repayments during the quarter with 18 loans paid off in full. Of these, $578 million was from loans originated in 2021 and 2022. And multi-family loans made up the majority of the paydowns. Importantly, two office loans were also fully repaid, further reducing our exposure to that sector. Turning to slide eight, our average cost of debt on our core portfolio was so 2.12%. Our financings continue to benefit from our CLOs.

本季度，我們收到了 6.41 億美元的貸款償還款，其中 18 筆貸款已全額償還。其中，5.78 億美元來自 2021 年和 2022 年發放的貸款。其中多戶家庭貸款佔還款額的大部分。重要的是，兩筆辦公室貸款也已全部償還，進一步減少了我們對該領域的曝險。轉到第八張投影片，我們核心投資組合的平均債務成本為 2.12%。我們的融資繼續受益於我們的 CLO。

A quarter to end, 89% of our financing was non-mark to market, and we have reinvestment capacity available in two of our deals. The non-recourse and non-mark to market structure of CLO financing makes it our preferred method for funding our portfolio. We anticipate returning to the CLO market sometime in 20 2025. We continue to have meaningful space on our warehouse lines and have unrestricted cash we would like to deploy. Combined with our CLO reinvest available, liquidity at quarter end totals $535 million of which $184 million is unrestricted cash.

截至本季末，我們 89% 的融資均未以市價計價，且我們在兩筆交易中擁有再投資能力。CLO 融資的無追索權和非以市價計價結構使其成為我們為投資組合提供資金的首選方式。我們預計將在 2025 年某個時候重返 CLO 市場。我們的倉庫線上仍有足夠的空間，而且我們還有可供部署的無限現金。加上我們可用的 CLO 再投資，季末的流動資金總額為 5.35 億美元，其中 1.84 億美元為無限現金。

Our net leverage position was 2.6 times with our recourse leverage standing at 0.3 X at the end of the quarter. With that, I'll turn it over to Mike to give you an update on our portfolio.

截至本季末，我們的淨槓桿率為 2.6 倍，追索槓桿率為 0.3 倍。說完這些，我會把話題轉交給麥克，讓他向大家介紹我們投資組合的最新情況。

Thanks, Jerry, and good morning everyone. Thanks for joining us. I'm going to start on slide 12. Our core portfolio stands at $5 billion, comprised of 155 loans averaging $32 million each. The portfolio is 99% senior mortgages, with 93% being floating rate loans. Multi-family remains our preferred sector, securing 71% of the portfolio.

謝謝，傑瑞，大家早安。感謝您的加入。我將從第 12 張投影片開始。我們的核心投資組合為 50 億美元，由 155 筆貸款組成，平均每筆 3,200 萬美元。該投資組合的 99% 為優先抵押貸款，其中 93% 為浮動利率貸款。多戶型住宅仍然是我們青睞的領域，佔投資組合的 71%。

Our core portfolio decreased again this quarter given significant repayments. As Jerry and Rich both noted, we have available liquidity that we plan to deploy into the core portfolio. We will also reinvest any equity generated from REO sales.

由於大量還款，本季我們的核心投資組合再次減少。正如 Jerry 和 Rich 所指出的，我們擁有可用的流動資金，我們計劃將其部署到核心投資組合中。我們也將再投資 REO 銷售產生的任何股權。

During the quarter, we originated 18 loans at a weighted average spread of 344 basis points. We have seen spreads continue to tighten across most asset classes, but still find this vintage of loans to be extremely compelling from a risk return perspective. Borrowers continue to adjust to the higher for longer rate environment, which we anticipate will continue to create constraints with supply from traditional credit providers.

本季度，我們發放了 18 筆貸款，加權平均利差為 344 個基點。我們已經看到大多數資產類別的利差持續收窄，但從風險回報角度來看，這類貸款仍然極具吸引力。借款人繼續適應長期利率上升的環境，我們預計這將繼續對傳統信貸提供者的供應造成限制。

That said, we've seen a moderate return of competition across the space, but I do not believe there is enough credit capital available today to address the approximately $3.4 trillion of a commercial real estate debt maturing in the next 36 months. Legacy loans, specifically office, will remain a problem and will continue to be a problem until lenders finally address the inevitable.

儘管如此，我們已經看到整個領域的競爭適度回歸，但我認為目前沒有足夠的信貸資本來應對未來 36 個月到期的約 3.4 兆美元的商業房地產債務。遺留貸款，特別是辦公室貸款，將一直是一個問題，並且會一直是一個問題，直到貸方最終解決這個不可避免的問題。

FBRT continues to take the acknowledge and address approach when it comes to our legacy loan portfolio. As both Rich and Jerry have discussed, we are actively identifying the loans that may be problematic, and our asset management team continues to proactively address these issues. Fly 14 is a summary of our watch list. Our watch list consisted of 4 properties a quarter end, but as both Jerry and Rich mentioned, this has been reduced to 3 positions given a Q1 2025 asset sale. We took title to the 376 unit Dallas apartment complex in January 2025 and have subsequently sold the property above our bases of the three remaining positions, one is a Denver office building that we anticipate taking title to in Q1 or Q2 of 25. The next is a Georgia office loan. It qualified for extension in January 2025. Not only does the borrower continue to keep that loan current, but they pay down the principal balance in conjunction with the extension.

當談到我們的遺留貸款組合時，FBRT 繼續採取承認和解決的方法。正如 Rich 和 Jerry 所討論的那樣，我們正在積極識別可能存在問題的貸款，而我們的資產管理團隊將繼續積極解決這些問題。Fly 14 是我們觀察名單的摘要。我們的關註名單每季末包括 4 處房產，但正如 Jerry 和 Rich 所提到的，考慮到 2025 年第一季的資產出售，這一數字已減少到 3 處。我們於 2025 年 1 月取得了擁有 376 個單元的達拉斯公寓大樓的所有權，隨後以高於我們基準的價格出售了剩餘三個地點的房產，其中一個是丹佛辦公大樓，我們預計將在 2025 年第一季或第二季取得所有權。下一個是喬治亞州的辦公室貸款。其將於 2025 年 1 月獲得延期資格。借款人不僅可以繼續維持貸款的現狀，而且還可以在延期的同時償還本金餘額。

The final property on our watch list is a 307 unit student housing student housing property in Norfolk, Virginia. It is risk rated a four. We are in active dialogue with the borrower and have reached terms on a loan modification which are being papered currently. This is an incredibly well capitalized borrower, and we recently recently received positive feedback about property operations. The experience we had on the 376 unit Dallas apartment project is another example of strength in the multi-family sector, as well as the massive amount of liquidity, looking for opportunities.

我們關註名單上的最後一處房產是位於維吉尼亞州諾福克的一處擁有 307 個單元的學生宿舍。其風險等級為四級。我們正在與借款人進行積極對話，並已就貸款修改達成協議，目前正在準備文件。這是一家資本非常雄厚的借款人，我們最近收到了有關房地產運營的積極反饋。我們在達拉斯 376 個單元公寓項目中的經驗是多戶型住宅領域實力以及尋找機會的大量流動性的另一個例子。

We foreclosed that asset on January 7th. Word of the foreclosure spread very quickly, and within 72 hours we had approximately a dozen written and verbal offers to buy the property. One buyer called us and said, I live three miles away. I drove the asset this weekend and we'll go non-refundable with a million dollars dollar deposit and no due diligence period. A PSA was signed on January 27th and closing was only 16 days later.

我們於 1 月 7 日取消了該項資產的贖回權。喪失抵押品贖回權的消息傳播得非常快，在 72 小時內，我們收到了大約十幾份書面和口頭的購買報價。有一位買家打電話告訴我們說：“我住在三英里之外。”我這個週末駕駛了這筆資產，我們將以一百萬美元的押金不予退還，並且沒有盡職調查期。PSA 於 1 月 27 日簽署，僅 16 天後就完成了交割。

That experience simply would not happen in any other asset class in commercial real estate, and is one of the reasons we are so confident in our portfolio. On the other end of the spectrum we have the office sector. The damage continues to be staggering, but it appears that we have come off the bottom from a sentiment perspective and are seeing a hint more liquidity in the space. As Rich mentioned, our traditional multi-tenant office portfolio is down to 2.3% of our total portfolio, and our goal is to get to zero as soon as possible. While we consider new offices and originations, the credit bar is incredibly high and the return bar might be higher. We originated one office loan in 2024, and it has already been repaid in full.

這種經驗根本不會在商業房地產的任何其他資產類別中發生，這也是我們對我們的投資組合如此有信心的原因之一。另一方面，我們有辦公部門。損失仍然令人震驚，但從情緒角度來看，我們似乎已經走出谷底，並看到該領域的流動性增加。正如 Rich 所提到的，我們傳統的多租戶辦公室投資組合已下降至總投資組合的 2.3%，我們的目標是盡快降至零。當我們考慮新辦公室和發起機構時，信用門檻非常高，回報門檻可能更高。我們於 2024 年發放了一筆辦公室貸款，目前已全部償還。

Moving to slide 15, our foreclosure REO portfolio decreased to 11 positions at quarter end, having sold four properties near our basis in the fourth quarter. We close an additional sale after quarter end and have a have purchase and sale agreements in place for two additional properties at or above our basis, which are expected to close in the first and second quarters of this year.

轉到投影片 15，我們的止贖 REO 投資組合在季度末減少至 11 個位置，因為我們在第四季度出售了接近基礎的四處房產。我們在季度末之後完成了一筆額外的銷售，並且已經就另外兩處以我們的基礎價格或高於我們的基礎價格的房產簽訂了買賣協議，預計將在今年第一季和第二季完成。

In total, in 2024, our team sold $159 million of REO properties in the aggregate. Excluding the remaining Walgreens stores and the office building in Portland, the REO portfolio consists of all multi-family properties. Our goal is to liquidate the entire REO portfolio as quickly as possible. However, we continue to believe that stabilizing these assets first will lead to higher recovery prices. As Jerry pointed out, converting this REO back to performing loans has the ability to move our earnings by $25 to $0.30 per share annually. So it is absolutely our primary focus.

總體而言，2024 年，我們的團隊共計出售了價值 1.59 億美元的 REO 房產。除剩餘的 Walgreens 商店和波特蘭的辦公大樓外，REO 投資組合包括所有多戶型物業。我們的目標是盡快清算整個 REO 投資組合。然而，我們仍然相信，首先穩定這些資產將導致更高的回收價格。正如傑瑞指出的那樣，將這筆 REO 轉換回正常貸款能夠使我們的每股收益每年增加 25 美元至 0.30 美元。所以這絕對是我們關注的重點。

We've already had a very active first quarter, closing just under $200 million of loan commitments. As we completed our first CMBS execution of the year in in Q1 as well, resulting in approximately a $4 million gross gain on sale, which will be realized in Q1 figures. We remain confident in FBRT's ability to perform well in the current market environment, and with that, I'd like to turn it back to the operator to begin the Q&A session.

我們的第一季業務已經非常活躍，完成了近2億美元的貸款承諾。由於我們也在第一季完成了今年首個 CMBS 的執行，因此產生了約 400 萬美元的銷售毛收益，這將在第一季的數據中實現。我們仍然對 FBRT 在當前市場環境中表現良好的能力充滿信心，因此，我想將主題轉回給營運商開始問答環節。

(Operator instructions)

（操作員指令）

Today's first question comes from Matthew Erdner, Jones Trading. Please go ahead.

今天的第一個問題來自瓊斯貿易公司的馬修‧艾德納 (Matthew Erdner)。請繼續。

Hey, good morning, guys. Thanks for taking the question. Could you talk a little bit about spreads? They've come in kind of from the highs over the cycle, kind of in that 8% range. Where do you expect them to settle out? Is it tightening due to competition, increased credit quality, increased asset quality or kind of a combination of all the above?

嘿，大家早安。感謝您回答這個問題。能談談利差嗎？它們已經從週期的高點回升，大概在 8% 的範圍內。您預計他們會在哪裡定居？緊縮政策是因為競爭、信貸品質提高、資產品質提高，還是以上所有因素的綜合作用？

Thanks, the spread tightening I think has been a phenomenon we're seeing not only in real estate but also other credit credit positions. The floating rate credit spreads have probably come in, as tight as they can as reasonably get. It would seem pretty unlikely to tighten materially from here. I'm not going to call the last 5 basis points obviously, but it would be hard to see them tighten another 50, so to speak, CMBS remains incredibly liquid, CRE, CLO market remains incredibly liquid.

謝謝，我認為利差收緊不僅在房地產領域，而且在其他信貸領域也存在這種現象。浮動利率信用利差可能已達到合理水準。今後似乎不太可能出現實質收緊。我顯然不會稱最後 5 個基點為上限，但很難看到他們再收緊 50 個基點，可以這麼說，CMBS 仍然具有極強的流動性，CRE、CLO 市場仍然具有極強的流動性。

Spreads on the liability side or tightening, in lockstep with the asset side tightening, so we're seeing that phenomenon on warehouse lines CRE, CLO and CMBS. So I think we're well inside the types of kind of peak valuations Q4 21, Q1 of 22, probably by 20 to 50, 25 to 50 basis points. But obviously the difference is we continue to have, so for still 4.5% higher than it was at those peak valuations as well so I think we're there was a very long way of me saying I think the spread tightening in the floating rate world is probably close to its end, but whole dollar coupons, continue to have seven handles on them.

負債端的利差或與資產端的利差收緊同步，因此我們在倉單線CRE、CLO和CMBS上看到了這種現象。因此，我認為我們已充分處於 21 年第四季、22 年第一季的峰值估值範圍內，可能達到 20 至 50 個基點、25 至 50 個基點。但顯然差異在於我們繼續擁有，因此仍然比那些峰值估值高出 4.5%，所以我認為我們還有很長的路要走，我認為浮動利率世界中的利差收緊可能已接近尾聲，但整個美元息票仍然有七個把手。

Got it. That's helpful color there, and then Jerry, a quick kind of modeling question for you, other expenses it rose about $5 million bucks, give or take quarter over quarter and. I'm number to about $12.4 million, what should we expect the the run rate there and, is there any, material change kind of bedside?

知道了。這很有幫助，然後傑瑞，我想問您一個簡單的建模問題，其他費用比上一季增加了約 500 萬美元。我的數字大約是 1240 萬美元，我們應該預期那裡的運行率是多少，以及是否有任何實質的變化？

let me tell you to think about this in two ways. That's mostly the REO flow through expenses. They don't all go through there, but the vast majority do. So a little hard to predict based on how quickly we sell down some of this stuff, but the easiest way to think about it's kind of offsetting with the REO income that we have up above on the income statement. I mean those two are close to a wash, like I mentioned on the last earning calls, it's not much of a net contributor overall to the book.

讓我告訴你從兩個方面來思考這個問題。這主要是 REO 流通費用。雖然並不是所有人都會經過那裡，但絕大多數人都會。因此，根據我們銷售這些東西的速度，有點難以預測，但最簡單的思考方式是與我們在損益表上面的 REO 收入相抵消。我的意思是，這兩項幾乎打成平手，就像我在上次財報電話會議上提到的那樣，總體而言，這對帳面的淨貢獻並不大。

So, you heard the upside, but in terms of kind of how it comes off through the course of the next year it's really just depending on timing of asset sales. So I think, The easiest way to model it is to make some estimate in terms of how the pace of sell downs might occur. So you heard me say it could take a few quarters or more for us to work all that out.

所以，你聽到了好處，但就明年的表現而言，這實際上取決於資產銷售的時機。因此我認為，最簡單的建模方式就是對拋售速度進行一些估算。所以你聽到我說過我們可能需要幾個季度甚至更長時間才能解決所有這些問題。

Got it, that's helpful.

明白了，很有幫助。

The next question comes from Tom Catherwood with BTIG.

下一個問題來自 BTIG 的 Tom Catherwood。

Thank you and good morning everybody. Maybe Mike, starting with you. I appreciate your comments on kind of the the wave of CRA loan maturities and how that creates opportunity despite new capital coming into the market, but it seems like every lender is following your playbook and jumping into multi-family. Are you having to shift your approach or underwriting to maintain origination levels on the multi-family front?

謝謝大家，早安。也許麥克，從你開始。我很欣賞您對加拿大稅務局 (CRA) 貸款到期浪潮的評論，以及儘管有新資本進入市場，這如何創造機會，但似乎每個貸方都在遵循您的劇本並進入多戶型市場。您是否必須改變您的方法或承保方式來維持多戶型保險的發起水準？

Thanks for the question. Obviously, one, we're discussing internally all the time. We have a huge benefit of the fact that while all the people that are actively originating right now, none of them were originating in 2024. We were able to put on $2 billion of commitments in 2024 at some of the best spreads we've seen on some of the best loans we've seen in years.

謝謝你的提問。顯然，首先，我們一直在內部討論。我們獲得的巨大利益是，儘管現在所有人都在積極發起，但他們中沒有一個人是在 2024 年發起的。我們能夠在 2024 年承諾提供 20 億美元貸款，其利差是我們多年來見過的最佳水平，也是最優惠的貸款之一。

So we don't have to compete at these levels. We don't have to chase at these levels. And I would also say that the great thing about our platform is the breadth of our product offering, right? We've got so many different things that we can do that are a wider spread business, so construction lending, the little cottage industry of condo inventory loans, our hospitality book, so we're not really chasing to the tights here because we put on $2 billion last year that no one else did.

所以我們不必在這些層面上競爭。我們沒必要去追逐這些層次。我還想說，我們平台的優點在於我們提供的產品範圍非常廣泛，對嗎？我們可以做很多不同的事情，這些事情可以成為更廣泛的業務，例如建築貸款、公寓庫存貸款的小家庭手工業、我們的酒店業，所以我們並不是在追逐利潤，因為去年我們投入了 20 億美元，這是其他人沒有的。

And I think we're focusing our new originations on stuff where we can get pricing that is still, wider than what we're seeing kind of the very highly competed for space. So fully acknowledge that everybody's kind of looking for that, easy 88 mile an hour fastball over the fat part of the plate, but we've got the ability to swing at pitches and hit them that that other guys don't.

我認為，我們將重點放在那些可以獲得更高定價的產品，而這些定價仍然比我們所看到的競爭非常激烈的市場定價更合理。所以完全可以承認每個人都在尋找那種可以輕鬆以每小時 88 英里的速度投出快速球的球，但是我們有能力揮棒擊球，而其他人則做不到。

I appreciate those answers, Mike. Let me pivoting over to repayments, and the timing of repayments can be lumpy and hard to predict, but do you have an internal target for when originations and fundings could outpace repayments to the point in time that the loan book could start growing again?

我很感謝這些回答，麥克。讓我轉到還款問題，還款時間可能會不穩定且難以預測，但您是否有一個內部目標，即何時發起和融資可能會超過還款，從而使貸款賬簿再次開始增長？

I would definitely say it's art more than science. And a lot of that is also driven by interest rates. My view is very different at 4% 10 year versus a 5.25 tenure. We're doing this delicate dance of, how much legacy stuff still has to be worked out, are we going to have to take back a little more REO, how fast are we going to sell the existing REO? What are the repayments? There's just so many variables in there that it's hard to model, with any sort of, real certainty, when we can out originate repayments.

我肯定會說，這更多的是藝術而不是科學。其中很大一部分也是由利率推動的。我對 10 年期 4% 利率和 5.25% 利率期限的看法非常不同。我們正在進行一場微妙的舞蹈，有多少遺留問題需要解決，我們是否必須收回更多的 REO，我們要多快出售現有的 REO？還款金額是多少？其中有太多變量，很難以任何真正確定的方式模擬何時我們可以發起還款。

So it's clearly our goal, it's clearly where we want to be, Rich mentioned in his opening remarks that we were, 52% of the portfolio is post rate hike originations. Clearly our, without question goal is to get this book completely recycled out of the legacy portfolio and into this new vintage of loans. So we're doing it as fast as we can. I think there's just too many variables that I can, pound the table and say, by Q4 this year we've done it, but we're actively working towards that goal on literally a daily basis.

所以這顯然是我們的目標，這顯然是我們想要達到的目標，而里奇在開場白中提到，我們的投資組合中有 52% 是升息後的。顯然，我們的目標是將這本書從遺留投資組合中完全回收並放入新一輪的貸款中。因此我們正在盡可能快地完成此事。我認為有太多的變數，我可以敲桌子說，到今年第四季我們已經做到了，但我們幾乎每天都在積極地朝著這個目標努力。

Understood. And the last one for me on the remaining REO assets obviously made great progress, selling what you stabilized and the ones that you recently took title on for the ones that remain on your books, where are they in terms of executing the business plan and how much capital or time do you think they have until you can get them to stabilization?

明白了。最後一個問題是關於剩餘的 REO 資產，顯然取得了很大進展，出售了您穩定下來的資產和您最近取得所有權的資產，而對於仍在您賬簿上的資產，它們在執行商業計劃方面處於什麼位置，您認為在使它們穩定下來之前，它們還有多少資本或時間？

So it's obviously case by case to the asset. Of course we're just about to get into leasing season across the board. The vast majority of our REO is in Funbelt, so we're hoping to see a meaningful increase in leasing in the coming months. As I mentioned in the prepared remarks, we've already got two assets under contract. We are actively in the market with another two assets that we hope to have, acceptable bids on in short order, and then the rest are at various different stages of occupancy and again I think that we'll see a pretty healthy occupancy pop as we get into leasing season.

因此，這顯然是對資產逐案分析。當然，我們即將全面進入租賃季節。我們的 REO 絕大部分位於 Funbelt，因此我們希望在未來幾個月看到租賃量大幅成長。正如我在準備好的發言中提到的，我們已經簽訂了兩項資產的合約。我們正積極進入市場，希望另外兩項資產能在短時間內得到可接受的出價，其餘資產則處於不同的入住階段，而且我認為，隨著租賃季節的到來，我們將看到相當健康的入住率。

And I would say our goal is to have, the bulk of this in the market for sale, late Q2, early Q3. I think that should be enough time for us to stabilize, the vast majority of what's left in the book. Are there going to be some stragglers? Are there going to be some, unexpected twists or turns? Of course, welcome to real estate, but the goal again is to get through it as fast as we can and there appears to be a pretty clear path.

我想說我們的目標是將大部分產品在第二季末或第三季初投放市場銷售。我認為這應該足夠我們穩定書中剩餘的絕大部分內容。會不會有一些掉隊者？是否會出現一些意想不到的曲折或轉折？當然，歡迎來到房地產，但我們的目標還是盡快完成它，而且似乎有一條相當清晰的道路。

Great appreciate all the answers Mike thanks everyone.

非常感謝 Mike 的所有回答，謝謝大家。

The next question comes from Randy Binner, B. Riley.

下一個問題來自 Randy Binner、B. Riley。

Hey, good morning, thanks. I had a couple just looking to slide 10 of the deck on liquidity. I was wondering if you could just dig down a little bit on the change in available liquidity, this quarter versus last, and I think it's that financing available and in progress category. Just wondering what the detail is on the on the lower level of available liquidity.

嘿，早上好，謝謝。我有幾個人正想在流動性議題上發表第 10 點演講。我想知道您是否可以稍微深入介紹本季與上一季相比可用流動性的變化，我認為這是可用融資和正在進行的融資類別。我只是想知道較低水平的可用流動性的詳細情況是怎樣的。

Most of the changes from where pay pay downs come back to us in terms of does it hit a CLO with reinvest or does it hit a CLO that's in the amortization phase? Got it. And it just so happened we had more amortization on the amortizing CLOs and the non-amortizing CLOs, the reinvest ones, so that just takes down or delays when you can unlock some of that equity.

大部分關於薪資支付的變化都是以這樣的方式回到我們身邊的：它是否會對再投資的 CLO 產生影響，或者是否會對處於攤銷階段的 CLO 產生影響？知道了。碰巧的是，我們對攤銷 CLO 和非攤銷 CLO（再投資 CLO）進行了更多的攤銷，因此這會減少或延遲您解鎖部分股權的時間。

So if you think back to my comment on the fact that we probably launch another CLO later this year, that's the recapture of the equity on those deals that start to amortize down it just delays the liquidity, but for the way we kind of lay it out, it comes out for for my purpose of how we calculate that.

因此，如果你回想一下我關於今年晚些時候我們可能會推出另一個 CLO 的評論，那就是重新獲得那些開始攤銷的交易的股權，這只會延遲流動性，但就我們的佈局方式而言，它符合我計算它的目的。

Okay, got it. That's helpful. And then, the the first set of questions had to do with other expenses and I just didn't hear the full, exchange, but the specific question is I think other expenses were elevated to prepare properties for sale that are in REO. Did you break out how much of the $10.2 million of other expenses was that versus other stuff?

好的，明白了。這很有幫助。然後，第一組問題與其他費用有關，我沒有聽到完整的交流，但具體問題是，我認為其他費用增加是為了準備 REO 中的待售房產。您是否計算過這 1,020 萬美元的其他費用中有多少是來自其他項目？

No, we didn't break it out, but if you just look at our historical levels, it's a pretty decent portion of it, and yeah, if you look at the real estate income, I mentioned this before in my earlier answer, but those two roughly offset, that's kind of the best way to think about it. Other expense for us generally is not that large of a line item, so it's really just I think it's more of a net zero basis between those two line items in terms of how REO is actually coming through the books or flowing through from a cash perspective, right? It's almost net neutral in the entire context of everything we hold. So it's going to be elevated until we start to take down those assets and it starts it stops flowing through there.

不，我們沒有把它分開，但如果你只看我們的歷史水平，這是相當可觀的一部分，是的，如果你看看房地產收入，我之前在回答中提到過這一點，但這兩個大致抵消了，這是最好的思考方式。對我們來說，其他費用通常不是那麼大的項目，所以我認為，就 REO 的實際帳面收入或現金流動情況而言，這實際上更像是這兩個項目之間的淨零基礎，對嗎？就我們所持有的一切而言，它幾乎是網路中立的。因此，除非我們開始削減這些資產，否則資金流向將會變得十分緊張，資金將停止流經那裡。

Okay, that's great, that's all I had.

好的，太好了，這就是我所知道的全部。

Thank you. The next question is from Stephen Laws, h Raymond James.

謝謝。下一個問題來自史蒂芬勞斯 (Stephen Laws) 和雷蒙德詹姆斯 (Raymond James)。

Hi, good morning. I want to follow up on a question earlier on the, outlook for portfolio growth, I guess, repays or, more uncertain, but on the origination front, $450 million of fundings last quarter, I believe you said the prepared remarks around $200 million year-to-date. So is that kind of $400 million to $500 million of quarterly originations? Is that a good run rate as far as when you look at your pipeline or how much volatility do you expect to see on the origination side?

嗨，早安。我想跟進之前的一個問題，關於投資組合增長的前景，我猜是償還，或者更不確定，但在發起方面，上個季度的融資額為 4.5 億美元，我相信您在準備好的評論中說過，今年迄今為止的融資額約為 2 億美元。那麼，這是每季 4 億到 5 億美元的支出嗎？從您的角度來看，這是一個好的運行率嗎？或者您預計在起源方面會出現多大的波動？

Hey Steven, good morning, it's Mike. Thanks for the question. There is seemingly almost unlimited requests for financing right now. If we wanted to take application, we could probably sign $600 million to $800 million of of new applications.

嘿，史蒂文，早安，我是麥克。謝謝你的提問。目前，融資請求似乎幾乎是無限的。如果我們想接受申請，我們可能可以簽署 6 億到 8 億美元的新申請。

Next week, there is just a massive ask for credit right now. We're just trying to be patient because of the unknown unknowns of just as as I mentioned on on one of the last questions of we just don't know when we're going to get, certain REO sold, when we're getting certain repayments. I've spoken to all of you guys over the past several quarters about, one of the hardest things for us to manage right now is borrower behavior. Borrower behavior continues to be really difficult with, posturing this way and then going the complete opposite direction or posturing that way and going the complete opposite direction. So we're doing the best we can to forecast, cash and future problems and future REO, it's a pretty difficult endeavor. So the op opportunity to originate is there in spades. It's really just getting comfortable with the legacy book and cash and repayments to figure out how much we could take on.

下週，就有大量的信貸需求。我們只是試著保持耐心，因為正如我在最後一個疑問中提到的那樣，還有很多未知的未知數，我們不知道什麼時候能夠售出某些 REO，什麼時候能夠得到某些還款。過去幾季我都和大家談過，目前我們面臨的最難管理的事情之一就是藉款人的行為。借款人的行為仍然非常困難，一會兒擺出這種姿態，然後又朝著完全相反的方向發展，一會兒擺出那種姿態，然後又朝著完全相反的方向發展。因此，我們正在盡最大努力預測現金和未來的問題以及未來的 REO，這是一項相當艱鉅的任務。因此，存在著大量的創新機會。這其實只是對遺留帳簿、現金和還款進行熟悉，以計算出我們能夠承擔多少。

Appreciate the color, Mike. Two quick loan questions. I think you guys mentioned the Georgia office was modified and included some paid on the principal. Will that loan be upgraded given those actions and come off the watch list or you intend to leave it as vibrated?

欣賞這顏色，麥克。兩個快速貸款問題。我想你們提到過喬治亞州的辦公室已經進行了修改，並包括了一些由校長支付的費用。考慮到上述舉措，這筆貸款的評級是否會升級並從關註名單中剔除，還是您打算將其維持在波動水平？

For the moment we're going to leave it as five rated, it's still an office asset, and while I said liquidity has improved in that space, I don't think we have it at a level where we think it is refinanceable. Obviously we're incredibly encouraged by the fact that the borrower has continued to write checks, continue to pay us down. But I don't think we're in a spot currently where we're comfortable to say that's, risk rated for.

目前我們將其保留為五級，它仍然是一項辦公資產，雖然我說過該領域的流動性有所改善，但我認為它還沒有達到可再融資的水平。顯然，借款人不斷簽發支票、繼續償還貸款這一事實讓我們感到非常鼓舞。但我認為，我們目前還不能安心地說這是風險評級。

Accept Denver office, I think you commented should move to REO sometime in the first half of this year. Do you have a preliminary playbook of kind of how you want to handle that asset once it's an REO?

接受丹佛辦公室，我認為您評論的應該在今年上半年的某個時候轉移到 REO。一旦該資產成為 REO，您是否有初步的劇本，說明如何處理它？

I think the idea is similar to our multi-family book, albeit meaningfully harder, try to stabilize it and see what we can get on a liquidation. I think it's just a tough market right now in an office almost anywhere, so, I think a lot of people are getting appraisals for office buildings and able to refinance them. What the real bid is for an office building today, I'm not sure. So it's certainly the most illiquid asset class in commercial real estate. So I think there's some price discovery that we have to do on that asset. I think there's some market and operational discovery that we need to do on that asset. We're we're laser focused on it and will be, but it is certainly much harder to predict the outcome on an office asset today versus multi-family. So, probably can give you a more fulsome answer, Steven in a quarter or two after we've actually had our hands on the operation and understand the building and the leasing in the market a little bit better.

我認為這個想法與我們的多戶家庭書籍類似，儘管意義更大，但嘗試穩定它並看看我們能在清算中獲得什麼。我認為目前幾乎所有地方的辦公大樓市場都很艱難，因此，我認為很多人都在對辦公大樓進行評估並進行再融資。我不確定如今辦公大樓的實際出價是多少。因此，它無疑是商業房地產中流動性最差的資產類別。因此我認為我們必須對該資產進行一些價格發現。我認為我們需要對該資產進行一些市場和營運探索。我們正並將繼續專注於此，但今天預測辦公資產的結果肯定比預測多戶型資產的結果要困難得多。因此，在我們實際操作一兩個季度後，當我們對建築和市場租賃有了更好的了解之後，史蒂文可能會給你一個更全面的答案。

We already wrote down the asset pretty significantly as well, so. You guys have taken reserves on that asset for sure. I think a big part of your reserves actually. Last question on the CLO side. I know you mentioned you're going to return to the market probably at some point in 25. Can you talk about where those spreads are relative to.

我們已經對資產進行了相當大幅度的減記。你們肯定已經對該資產採取了儲備措施。我認為實際上這是你儲備的很大一部分。關於 CLO 方面的最後一個問題。我知道您曾提到您可能在 25 年的某個時候重返市場。能談談這些利差相對於什麼嗎？

The asset yields you're able to put on and additionally, how did the spread some new CLOs compare to to where FL6 is and how much would that need to pay down from here, to become something you'd look at collapsing and rolling that collateral into your to your next deal. Jerry and I and the team talk about it seemingly weekly, almost daily the past few weeks.

您能夠獲得的資產收益率，此外，一些新的 CLO 的利差與 FL6 相比如何，以及從現在開始需要支付多少，才能成為您考慮在下一筆交易中將該抵押品壓垮並轉入您的資產。過去幾週，傑瑞、我和團隊似乎每週、甚至每天都會談論這個問題。

We're looking at it constantly. It's the market is very liquid. The cost of financing is very attractive at the moment. If we could tap it sooner rather than later, we would, but we're looking to maximize a bunch of different things.

我們一直在關注它。它的市場流動性非常強。目前融資成本非常吸引人。如果我們能夠儘早利用它，我們就會這麼做，但我們希望最大限度地利用許多不同的東西。

So I think we'll, we will definitely be in the market again at some point in 2025, and if markets stay even close to where they are right now, it would be a very accretive liability for us to add. I mean we have the benefit, as I mentioned before. Yeah, we originated $2 billion at, in 2024 at the widest spread that we've seen in years. If we're able to time it where we can issue a liability at the tightest spreads after that tightening, obviously that's just kind of like having your cake and eating it too. So we want to get there. I think we will get there. I couldn't give you an exact timing, but it's something that Jerry and I work on, quite a bit.

因此我認為，我們肯定會在 2025 年的某個時候再次進入市場，而且如果市場保持接近現在的水平，那麼這對我們來說將是一個非常大的負擔。我的意思是我們有好處，正如我之前提到的。是的，我們在 2024 年籌集了 20 億美元，達到了多年來最高的水準。如果我們能夠把握時機，在利率收緊之後以最小的利差發行債務，顯然這就像是魚與熊掌兼得。所以我們想實現這個目標。我認為我們將會實現這一目標。我無法給你一個確切的時間，但這是傑瑞和我花費大量精力去做的事情。

And the last deal you're able to get was it a three year replenishment period on that?

您能達成的最後一項協議是三年的補貨期嗎？

We were, I think we helped the market kind of reset to that level. I don't want to get in the weeds there. It causes some weighted average life, issues and whatnot, but it's definitely a very net positive for us to have just additional optionality on the liability side, and I think we do a good job originating tenors and credit tenor that we'll be able to use that in the future. So I think it's important but overall. The macro on CRE CLO is the advance rate and the cost of funds, and if you get those two things where they currently are, it's a wildly accretive liability.

我認為，我們幫助市場重置到了那個水準。我不想陷入那種困境。它會導致一些加權平均壽命、問題等等，但對於我們在負債方面擁有額外的選擇權來說，這絕對是一個非常積極的方面，我認為我們在發起期限和信用期限方面做得很好，我們將能夠在未來使用它。所以我認為這很重要，但總的來說。CRE CLO 的宏觀因素是預付利率和資金成本，如果將這兩個因素置於當前水平，那麼這將是一項極為累積的負債。

Great color. Thanks for the comments this morning. I appreciate it.

顏色很棒。感謝您今天早上的評論。我很感激。

Thank you. This concludes our question and answer session. I would now like to turn the call back over to management for any closing remarks.

謝謝。我們的問答環節到此結束。現在，我想將電話轉回給管理階層，請他們做最後發言。

We appreciate you joining us today. Please reach out if you have any further questions. We look forward to speaking with you soon. Have a great day.

感謝您今天加入我們。如果您還有其他問題，請與我們聯絡。我們期待盡快與您交談。祝你有美好的一天。

Thanks everyone. The conference is now concluded. Thank you for attending today's presentation. You may now disconnect your lines.

謝謝大家。會議現已結束。感謝您參加今天的演講。現在您可以斷開線路了。