Ellington Financial Inc (EFC) 2025 Q1 法說會逐字稿

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, and thank you for standing by. Welcome to the Ellington Financial first-quarter 2025 earnings conference call. Today's call is being recorded. At this time, all participants have been placed in a listen-only mode. The floor will be open for your questions following the presentation. (Operator Instructions)

女士們，先生們，早安，感謝各位的收看。歡迎參加Ellington Financial 2025年第一季財報電話會議。今天的電話會議正在錄音中。目前，所有與會者已設定為只聽模式。演講結束後，我們將開放提問環節。 （接線生指示）

It is now my pleasure to turn the call over to Alaael-Deen Shilleh. You may begin.

現在，我很高興將發言權交給阿拉埃爾-丁希萊。你可以開始了。

Thank you. Before we begin, I'd like to remind everyone that this conference call may include forward-looking statements within the meaning of the Safe Harbor provisions of the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995. These statements are non-historical in nature and involve risks and uncertainties detailed in our annual and quarterly reports filed with the SEC.

謝謝。在開始之前，我想提醒大家，本次電話會議可能包含《1995年私人證券訴訟改革法》安全港條款所定義的前瞻性聲明。這些陳述本質上是非歷史性的，涉及我們向美國證券交易委員會提交的年度和季度報告中詳述的風險和不確定性。

Actual results may differ materially from these statements. So they should not be considered to be predictions of future events. The company undertakes no obligation to update these forward-looking statements.

實際結果可能與這些陳述有重大差異。因此，這些陳述不應被視為對未來事件的預測。本公司不承擔更新這些前瞻性陳述的義務。

Joining me today are Larry Penn, Chief Executive Officer of Ellington Financial; Mark Tecotzky, Co-Chief Investment Officer; and JR Herlihy, Chief Financial Officer.

今天與我一起出席的還有 Ellington Financial 執行長 Larry Penn、聯席首席投資長 Mark Tecotzky 和財務長 JR Herlihy。

Our first-quarter earnings conference call presentation is available on our website ellingtonfinancial.com. Today's call will track that presentation and all statements and references to figures are qualified in their entirety by the important notice and endnotes in the presentation.

我們第一季財報電話會議的簡報可在我們的網站 ellingtonfinancial.com 上查看。今天的電話會議將與簡報同步進行，所有陳述和數據引用均已在簡報中的重要通知和尾註中完整標註。

With that, I'll hand the call over to Larry.

說完這些，我就把電話交給拉里。

Thanks, Alaael-Deen. Good morning, everyone, and thank you for joining us today. I'll begin on Slide 3 of the presentation. Ellington Financial started the year with a solid first quarter, driven by continued strength in our diversified residential and commercial mortgage loan portfolios in combination with continued excellent deal executions in our securitization platform.

謝謝，Alaael-Deen。大家早安，感謝大家今天加入我們。我從簡報的第三張投影片開始。 Ellington Financial 今年第一季表現穩健，這得益於我們多元化的住宅和商業抵押貸款組合持續強勁，以及我們證券化平台持續出色的交易執行。

For the quarter, we generated GAAP net income of $0.35 per share and our adjusted distributable earnings at $0.39 per share continue to cover our dividends. Our loan businesses remain a dependable source of growth and profitability, and we again benefited from strong ADE contributions from our loan originator affiliates, as well as net gains on our forward MSR portfolio.

本季度，我們實現了每股0.35美元的GAAP淨利潤，調整後可分配收益為每股0.39美元，繼續涵蓋我們的股息。我們的貸款業務仍然是可靠的成長和獲利來源，我們再次受益於貸款發起關聯方強勁的ADE貢獻，以及我們遠期MSR投資組合的淨收益。

Our reverse mortgage platform, Longbridge Financial, more than covered its proportional share of ADE to support the dividend despite lower seasonal origination volumes for HECM. However, with interest rates sharply lower over the quarter, losses on interest rate hedges led to slightly negative GAAP net income overall for the quarter at our Longbridge segment.

我們的反向抵押貸款平台 Longbridge Financial 超額完成了其在 ADE 的相應份額，儘管 HECM 的季節性發放量有所下降，但仍支持了股息。然而，由於本季利率大幅下降，利率對沖損失導致 Longbridge 部門本季整體 GAAP 淨利潤略為負值。

I'll note that, while seasonality caused HECM origination volumes at Longbridge to decline sequentially, Prop Reverse origination volumes were stable and their origination margins actually improved, providing further evidence of the growing demand for our Prop Reverse product. In fact, in April, loan submissions in Prop were considerably higher year-over-year.

我要指出的是，雖然季節性因素導致Longbridge的HECM貸款發放量環比下降，但Prop Reverse的貸款發放量保持穩定，且其發放利潤率實際上有所提高，這進一步證明了我們Prop Reverse產品的需求不斷增長。事實上，4月Prop的貸款申請量較去年同期大幅成長。

Meanwhile, our non-QM originator affiliates, including LendSure and American Heritage, continued not only to provide us with excellent flow of product, but their strong profitability also continued to contribute nicely to our bottom line.

同時，我們的非 QM 發起機構附屬公司（包括 LendSure 和 American Heritage）不僅繼續為我們提供優質的產品流，而且其強勁的盈利能力也繼續為我們的盈利做出良好貢獻。

Extending the strong momentum we built in our securitization platform last year, we priced five new securitization deals in the first quarter, taking advantage of tight spreads to secure long-term, non mark-to-market financing at attractive terms. These transactions also enabled us to expand our portfolio of high yielding retained tranches to support earnings growth, and they added deal call rights to our portfolio, enhancing portfolio optionality.

延續去年我們證券化平台的強勁勢頭，我們在第一季度完成了五筆新的證券化交易定價，利用較低的利差，以優惠的條款獲得了長期、非按市價計價的融資。這些交易也使我們得以擴大高收益留存部分的投資組合，以支持獲利成長，並增加了交易贖回權，增強了投資組合的可選性。

Thanks to the strong historical credit performance of our EFMT shelf, we were able to lock in some extremely favorable debt spreads on our first quarter securitizations.

由於我們的 EFMT 債券歷史信用表現強勁，我們能夠在第一季的證券化中鎖定一些極為有利的債務利差。

I'm pleased that we completed a high volume of deals in the first quarter, while market conditions were still favorable. In fact, securitization debt spreads widened somewhat late in the quarter and then surged in early April amidst the overall market volatility.

我很高興我們在第一季完成了大量的交易，而市場環境仍然很好。事實上，證券化債務利差在本季末有所擴大，然後在4月初整體市場波動的背景下大幅上升。

And so, we refrain from pricing any more securitizations in April until very late in the month when we priced another non-QM securitization after debt spreads had recovered somewhat. Given the diversified array of warehouse lines that we have at our disposal, we can be patient during extended periods of debt spread widening.

因此，我們在4月暫停了任何證券化產品的定價，直到月底才在債務利差有所回升後對另一隻非QM證券化產品進行了定價。鑑於我們擁有多元化的倉單產品組合，我們可以在債務利差擴大的長期時期保持耐心。

To that point, we added two more loan financing facilities during the first quarter. We've also made some important tactical moves in the form of outright asset sales. Earlier in the first quarter, we sold a wide variety of credit-sensitive securities before yield spreads widened to lock-in gains, free up capital and enhance liquidity. Then, in early April, we sold most of our HELOC position, crystallizing profits on those investments, while freeing up capital to reinvest in the more attractive opportunities we are seeing in other sectors.

為此，我們在第一季新增了兩項貸款融資工具。我們也採取了一些重要的戰術舉措，例如直接出售資產。在第一季早些時候，我們在收益率利差擴大之前出售了多種信貸敏感型證券，以鎖定收益、釋放資本並增強流動性。隨後，在4月初，我們出售了大部分房屋淨值信貸額度（HELOC）頭寸，實現了這些投資的利潤，同時釋放了資本，用於再投資於我們在其他領域看到的更具吸引力的機會。

Meanwhile, we closed on yet another mortgage originator joint venture investment in the first quarter. And as usual, this included a forward flow agreement with that originator. We have two more such investments in the term sheet stage now. We remain focused on establishing these joint ventures to secure consistent access to high-quality loans at attractive pricing and on a predictable timeline.

同時，我們在第一季完成了另一項抵押貸款發起機構合資投資。與往常一樣，這筆投資包含與該發起機構的遠期資金流協議。目前，我們還有另外兩項此類投資處於條款清單階段。我們將繼續專注於建立這些合資企業，以確保以具有吸引力的定價和可預測的時間表持續獲得優質貸款。

Finally, we've made notable progress on a handful of commercial mortgage workouts, including one significant resolution in March and another one scheduled to close today, eliminating negative carry assets and freeing up capital for redeployment. We expect that, by the end of the second quarter, we will have only one significant remaining workout asset detracting from our adjustable distributable earnings.

最後，我們在幾項商業抵押貸款重組方面取得了顯著進展，包括3月份達成的一項重要解決方案和計劃於今日完成的另一項解決方案，從而消除了負利差資產，並釋放了可用於再配置的資金。我們預計，到第二季末，我們將只剩下一項重要的重組資產，該資產將影響我們的可調整分配收益。

At the bottom of slide 3, you can see that our recourse leverage remained low at just 1.7:1. That's even slightly lower than our year end level of 1.8:1, with our significant securitization activity and opportunistic asset sales in the first quarter more than offsetting another $1 billion plus quarter of loan purchases. I'll make a few observations on our leverage.

在第三張投影片的底部，您可以看到我們的追索槓桿率保持在低位，僅為1.7:1。這甚至略低於我們年末1.8:1的水平，因為我們在第一季度進行了大量的證券化活動，並抓住機會出售資產，這足以抵消我們本季10多億美元的貸款購買。我對我們的槓桿率有一些看法。

First, whenever we complete a securitization, we convert a sizable amount of borrowings from recourse to non-recourse, thus lowering our recourse leverage. Second, these securitizations also convert loan assets into retained tranches, which carry much higher yields and therefore require little or no leverage to generate attractive returns on equity.

首先，每當我們完成證券化時，我們都會將大量借款從追索權轉為無追索權，從而降低我們的追索權槓桿率。其次，這些證券化也將貸款資產轉換為留存部分，這些留存部分的殖利率更高，因此幾乎不需要槓桿就能產生可觀的股本回報率。

Third, in the wake of the March and April volatility, we continue to see better investment opportunities. So it's great to have made more room to add leverage from here. And fourth, if we're going to increase our recourse leverage significantly, we prefer to do it by issuing long-term unsecured debt.

第三，在經歷了3月和4月的波動之後，我們繼續看到了更好的投資機會。因此，很高興能從現在開始獲得更多的槓桿空間。第四，如果我們要大幅提高追索權槓桿，我們更傾向於透過發行長期無擔保債券來實現。

However, debt spreads are currently too wide in that market relative to asset spreads for us to be issuing unsecured debt. When that relationship between debt spreads and asset spreads normalize, we'll consider issuing unsecured debt again.

然而，目前該市場的債務利差相對於資產利差過大，我們無法發行無擔保債務。當債務利差與資產利差之間的關係恢復正常時，我們會考慮再次發行無擔保債務。

And with that, I'll turn the call over to JR to walk through our financial results in more detail. JR?

接下來，我將把電話轉給 JR，讓他更詳細地介紹我們的財務表現。 JR？

Thanks, Larry. Good morning, everyone. For the first quarter, we reported GAAP net income of $0.35 per common share on a fully mark-to-market basis and ADE of $0.39 per share.

謝謝，拉里。大家早安。第一季度，我們報告的GAAP淨利為每股普通股0.35美元（完全以市價計算），ADE為每股0.39美元。

On slide 5 of the deck, you can see the income breakdown by strategy, $0.58 per share from credit, $0.05 per share from Agency and negative $0.01 per share from Longbridge. And on slide 6, you can see the ADE breakdown by segment, $0.32 per share from the investment portfolio segment net of corporate expenses, and $0.07 per share from the Longbridge segment.

在投影片的第5張中，您可以看到按策略劃分的收入明細：信貸業務每股收益0.58美元，代理業務每股收益0.05美元，Longbridge業務每股收益-0.01美元。在第6張投影片中，您可以看到按部門劃分的ADE業務明細：投資組合部門扣除公司費用後每股收益0.32美元，Longbridge部門每股收益0.07美元。

Positive performance in the credit portfolio was driven by sequentially higher net interest income, net gains from forward MSR related investments, commercial mortgage loans, closed-end second lien loans, non-QM retained tranches and ABS, and net gains on our loan originator equity investments.

信貸組合的積極表現得益於連續增加的淨利息收入、遠期 MSR 相關投資的淨收益、商業抵押貸款、封閉式第二留置權貸款、非 QM 保留部分和 ABS 以及貸款發起人股權投資的淨收益。

Partially offsetting higher net interest income were net realized and unrealized losses on consumer loans, CLOs, non-QM loans and residential transition loans, as well as losses on residential and commercial REO. Meanwhile, thanks to our coupon and hedge positioning, our agency portfolio generated excellent returns for the quarter, even as Agency RMBS slightly underperformed benchmarks market-wide.

消費貸款、貸款抵押債券 (CLO)、非合格市場貸款 (NQM) 和住宅過渡貸款的淨已實現和未實現損失，以及住宅和商業房地產交易 (REO) 的損失，部分抵消了淨利息收入的增長。同時，由於我們的票息和對沖配置，我們的代理投資組合在本季度實現了優異的回報，儘管代理RMBS的表現略遜於市場基準。

Turning now to Longbridge. While that segment reported a slight net loss overall due to interest rate hedges with rates sharply lower during the quarter, Longbridge had positive contributions from both servicing driven by a net gain on the HMBS MSR and from originations driven by higher origination margins for Prop Reverse and steady margins for HECM despite seasonally lower origination volumes in HECM quarter-over-quarter.

現在來看看Longbridge。雖然該部門整體因本季度利率大幅下降導致利率對沖而出現輕微淨虧損，但Longbridge的貢獻主要體現在兩方面：一是服務業務，由HMBS MSR的淨收益驅動；二是Prop Reverse的發起利潤率上升以及HECM的利潤率保持穩定（儘管HECM的發起量環比季節性下降）。

Our results for the quarter also reflected gains on the fixed receiver interest rate swaps used to hedge the fixed payments on our unsecured notes and preferred equity with interest rates lower during the quarter. These gains exceeded net losses on our unsecured notes, which included a mark-to-market loss on our unsecured notes, driven by lower interest rates, as well as a realized loss related to the par redemption of our 6.75% notes that we had carried at a slight discount to par.

本季業績也反映了用於對沖本季度利率下降的無擔保票據和優先股固定支付的固定接收方利率掉期合約的收益。這些收益超過了無擔保票據的淨虧損，其中包括因利率下降導致的無擔保票據的市價計價損失，以及因贖回以略低於票面價值的價格持有的6.75%票據而產生的已實現損失。

Turning now to portfolio changes during the quarter. Slide 7 shows a 4% decrease for our adjusted long credit portfolio to $3.3 billion. The decline was due to the impact of securitizations completed during the quarter as well as a smaller residential transitional loan portfolio, where principal pay downs exceeded net new purchases and net sales of CLOs. Offsetting a portion of the decline were larger commercial mortgage bridge and non-QM loan portfolios both driven by net purchases.

現在來看看本季的投資組合變化。投影片7顯示，我們調整後的長期信貸投資組合下降了4%，至33億美元。下降的原因是本季完成的證券化以及規模較小的住宅過渡性貸款組合的影響，這些貸款組合的本金償還額超過了淨新增購買額和CLO淨銷售額。規模較大的商業過橋抵押貸款和非合格抵押貸款組合抵消了部分下降，這兩者都是由淨購買額推動的。

On Slide 8, you can see that our total long Agency RMBS portfolio declined by another 14% to $256 million by design, as we continue to sell down that portfolio and rotate the capital into higher-yielding opportunities. Slide 9 illustrates that our Longbridge portfolio increased by 31% sequentially to $549 million driven by a proprietary reverse mortgage loan originations.

在投影片8中，您可以看到，由於我們持續減持該組合，並將資金轉向收益更高的投資機會，我們的長期機構RMBS投資組合總額再次下降14%，至2.56億美元。投影片9顯示，在自營反向抵押貸款的推動下，我們的Longbridge投資組合季增31%，至5.49億美元。

Please next turn to Slide 10, for a summary of our borrowings. At March 31, the total weighted-average borrowing rate on recourse borrowings decreased by 12 basis points to 6.09%. Quarter-over-quarter, the net interest margin on our credit portfolio decreased by 12 basis points, while the NIM on Agency increased by 24 basis points. Our recourse debt-to-equity ratio declined to set 1.7:1 from 1.8:1 quarter-over-quarter and including consolidated securitizations, our overall debt to equity ratio decreased slightly to 8.7:1 from 8.8:1.

接下來請翻到第10張投影片，查看我們借款的摘要。截至3月31日，追索權借款的總加權平均借款利率下降了12個基點，至6.09%。與上一季相比，我們信貸組合的淨利差下降了12個基點，而機構淨利差則上升了24個基點。我們的追索權負債權益比率從上一季的1.8:1下降至1.7:1；包含合併證券化資產後，我們的整體負債權益比率從8.8:1略微下降至8.7:1。

During the quarter, we paid off one of the tranches of unsecured notes that we brought over from Arlington upon their maturity in March. At March 31, combined cash and unencumbered assets increased to approximately $853 million or more than 50% of our total equity. Book value per common share stood at $13.44 and total economic return for the first quarter was 9.5% annualized.

本季度，我們償還了一批於3月到期的從阿靈頓銀行轉來的無抵押票據。截至3月31日，現金及未支配資產總額增至約8.53億美元，占我們總股本的50%以上。每股普通股帳面價值為13.44美元，第一季總經濟報酬率為9.5%（年化）。

With that, I'll pass it over to Mark.

說完這些，我就把它交給馬克。

Thanks, JR. This was a strong quarter for EFC. We covered our dividends with ADE, made substantial progress in resolving our larger delinquent commercial mortgage loans and had broad-based contributions to earnings from our diversified investment portfolio.

謝謝，JR。 EFC 本季表現強勁。我們用 ADE 支付了股息，在解決大額拖欠商業抵押貸款方面取得了實質進展，並且多元化投資組合為盈利做出了廣泛貢獻。

One highlight for the quarter was our portfolio of agency mortgage servicing rights, where we not only had substantial positive carry, but a substantial mark to market gain as well. These MSRs are backed by very low rate Fannie Freddie loans. We acquired these MSRs through the Arlington acquisition and they remain one of the few holdings of theirs that we kept in our portfolio. On prior calls, we have spoken about the mortgage lock in effect, putting a wet blanket on prepayments and creating a huge opportunity in second liens and HELOCs for us.

本季的一大亮點是我們機構抵押貸款服務權投資組合，我們不僅獲得了可觀的正利差，還獲得了可觀的市值收益。這些抵押貸款服務權 (MSR) 由利率極低的房利美房地美貸款支持。我們透過收購阿靈頓公司獲得了這些 MSR，它們仍然是我們投資組合中少數幾隻持有的房利美貸款之一。在先前的電話會議上，我們談到了抵押貸款鎖定效應，這給預付款帶來了打擊，並為我們創造了巨大的第二留置權和房屋淨值信貸額度 (HELOC) 機會。

Another consequence of that lock in effect is that values of servicing have gone up as each month's prepayment data confirms very slow speeds on low coupon MBS. In addition, there has been a trend in the mortgage space to put an increasingly higher value on the customer relationships that come with owning servicing rights, particularly customers with high FICO's. That is part of the driver behind Rocket's recently announced acquisition of Mr. Cooper. While we don't expect this quarter's mark-to-market gain to be repeated, we do expect an ongoing meaningful contribution to our ADE from this MSR portfolio.

這種鎖定效應的另一個後果是，由於每月的預付款數據證實低利率MBS的還款速度非常緩慢，服務價值也隨之上升。此外，抵押貸款領域也出現了一種趨勢，越來越重視擁有服務權所帶來的客戶關係，尤其是那些信用評分（FICO）較高的客戶。這也是Rocket最近宣布收購Mr. Cooper的原因之一。雖然我們預計本季以市價計算的收益不會重現，但我們確實預期該MSR投資組合將持續對我們的ADE（平均收益）做出有意義的貢獻。

We also had a great quarter in our non-QM loan business. For our non-QM origination partners in which we had ownership stakes, their strong profitability in 2024 has continued into 2025. We continue to expand our footprint in non-QM and we remain an active deal sponsor. We waited at the mid-market April volatility and priced the non-QM deal last week and were rewarded with great execution.

本季度，我們的非合格貸款業務也表現出色。對於我們持有股權的非合格貸款發起合作夥伴而言，他們在2024年的強勁獲利能力將延續至2025年。我們將繼續拓展非合格貸款業務，並繼續積極參與交易。我們等待4月中期市場波動，並在上週為非合格貸款交易定價，最終獲得了出色的執行力。

The securitization process creates high-yielding investments for the EFC portfolio as well as giving us a growing portfolio of call options that potentially provide us access to high note rate season loans in the future.

證券化過程為 EFC 投資組合創造了高收益投資，同時也為我們提供了不斷增長的看漲期權組合，這些期權有可能讓我們在未來獲得高票據利率的季節性貸款。

In recent months, we have been tightening our underwriting guidelines, preferring to focus on higher FICO borrowers and loans with a more extensive underwrite. That view is heavily informed by Ellington's internal research, and as we see the market now pricing in a greater probability of a slowdown in the US economy that scenario should favor a more conservative positioning. We also had another strong quarter from non-agency RMBS both in terms of earnings contribution and portfolio growth. With the growing securitization market in non-QM, jumbo and second liens, we are finding a rich opportunity set in the market and have been deploying capital accordingly.

近幾個月來，我們一直在收緊承保準則，更傾向於關注FICO評分較高的借款人和承保範圍更廣的貸款。這個觀點很大程度上源自於Ellington的內部研究，我們看到市場目前已經消化了美國經濟放緩的可能性，因此在這種情況下我們應該採取更保守的配置策略。非機構RMBS在獲利貢獻和投資組合成長方面也再創佳績。隨著非合格抵押貸款證券化市場（non-QM）、巨額抵押貸款證券化市場和第二留置權抵押貸款證券化市場的蓬勃發展，我們發現了豐富的市場機會，並一直在相應地進行資本配置。

Last year, we identified as a growth area for us equity release products offered to high FICO agency borrowers with low fixed rate mortgages. Since then, we have been an active buyer and securitizer of second lien loans. We had strong contributions from those investments in the first quarter and have also been co-sponsoring third-party securitizations of closed-end seconds that create retained tranches for us to hold. We expect those retained tranches to provide very high yields and generate outsized ADE.

去年，我們將股權釋放產品確定為美國市場的成長領域，這些產品面向擁有低固定利率抵押貸款的高FICO機構借款人。自那時起，我們一直積極購買和證券化第二留置權貸款。這些投資在第一季為我們帶來了強勁的收益，同時我們也共同發起了第三方封閉式第二留置權貸款的證券化，這些證券化產品創造了可供我們持有的留存部分。我們預計這些留存部分將提供極高的收益率，並產生巨大的ADE。

We also made substantial progress in a handful of delinquent commercial mortgage loans in our portfolio. One resolved in the first quarter, one is scheduled to resolve today, and one is in the middle of CapEx and lease up. We continue to originate commercial bridge loans and are seeing a stronger set of sponsors looking to partner with us. The relationship and expertise that our origination affiliate Sheridan are a big benefit to us here.

我們投資組合中一些拖欠的商業抵押貸款也取得了顯著進展。其中一筆已於第一季解決，一筆計劃於今日解決，還有一筆正處於資本支出和租賃期。我們繼續發放商業過橋貸款，並且有更多實力雄厚的發起人希望與我們合作。我們的貸款發放關聯公司Sheridan與我們的關係和專業知識對我們非常有利。

Similar to residential, we have become progressively more restrictive in our underwriting guidelines, but our pricing power remains strong and we continue to see a high volume of deal flow. We also had a very strong quarter in our agency portfolio, as we were well-positioned to capture both positive carry and mark-to-market gains over our hedges.

與住宅保險類似，我們的核保準則也逐漸趨於嚴格，但我們的定價能力依然強勁，交易量也持續維持高位。本季度，我們的代理投資組合表現也非常強勁，因為我們佔據了有利位置，能夠透過對沖獲得正利差和市價調整收益。

Now let's talk about April. That was one of the most volatile months we have seen in a long time. While results are still preliminary, we estimate that, it was a positive return month for EFC. The tariffs uncertainty is challenging many business models and causing a huge amount of volatility in both high yield bonds and bank loans.

現在我們來談談四月。這是我們長期以來經歷的最動蕩的月份之一。雖然結果尚不明確，但我們估計，EFC 的四月表現為正。關稅的不確定性正在挑戰許多商業模式，並導致高收益債券和銀行貸款都大幅波動。

Amidst the market weakness, low LTV real estate loans with high FICO borrowers in the case of residential and high-quality sponsors in the case of commercial have been a safe, high-yielding place to invest so far as they appear to be much better insulated from tariff uncertainty than many parts of the corporate market.

在市場疲軟的情況下，低 LTV 房地產貸款（住宅貸款中擁有高 FICO 借款人）和高品質贊助商（商業貸款中擁有高品質贊助商）一直是一個安全、高收益的投資場所，因為它們似乎比企業市場的許多部分更好地抵禦了關稅不確定性的影響。

Now look on slide 19, you can see we continue to increase our credit hedges in Q1. Those are primarily corporate focused and they certainly did their job helping to predict book value in April. Going forward, we are closely watching credit performance across many markets sectors for signs of weakness. So if we need to -- so if need be, we can adjust our credit hedges and or pivot and rotate between sectors.

現在請看第19張投影片，您可以看到我們在第一季持續增加信用對沖。這些對沖主要針對企業，它們確實在預測4月的帳面價值方面發揮了作用。展望未來，我們將密切關注多個市場板塊的信貸表現，以尋找疲軟跡象。因此，如果需要，我們可以調整信貸對沖，或在不同板塊之間進行調整和輪換。

In addition, we want to keep pushing our advantage of vertical integration, both to drive value-creation in our portfolio origination companies and drive investment creation for EFC's portfolio. In addition, we are seeing the value of many of the technology initiatives we developed last year coming to bear. We are actively developing more proprietary tools to support loan origination.

此外，我們希望持續鞏固垂直整合的優勢，既推動我們投資組合發起公司的價值創造，也推動EFC投資組合的投資創造。此外，我們看到去年開發的許多技術項目正在產生效益。我們正在積極開發更多專有工具來支持貸款發起。

Now back to Larry.

現在回到拉里。

Thank you, Mark. I'm very pleased with how we started out the year. In the first quarter, we continued to grow our residential and commercial loan businesses, building on the strength of our vertically integrated platform, opportunistically accessing securitization markets and maintaining dividend coverage.

謝謝馬克。我對我們今年的開局非常滿意。第一季度，我們持續成長住宅和商業貸款業務，依賴我們垂直整合平台的優勢，抓住機會進入證券化市場，並維持股息覆蓋率。

Our investment teams executed skillfully in the face of growing macro headwinds, generating solid returns and executing key tactical and strategic maneuvers, such as asset sales, securitizations and hedging adjustments. As a result, we were positioned really well coming into the second quarter.

面對日益嚴峻的宏觀經濟逆風，我們的投資團隊表現出色，創造了穩健的回報，並執行了關鍵的戰術和戰略舉措，例如資產出售、證券化和對沖調整。因此，我們在第二季取得了非常有利的定位。

The current high levels of volatility are recharging the opportunity set and creating compelling trading opportunities. This is an environment that we believe is well-suited to our core strengths. Our short duration loan portfolios continue to steadily return principal, enabling us to redeploy capital at higher yields. As during previous periods of market stress, our dynamic hedging strategies, diversified portfolio, broad financing base and low leverage are all helping us protect book value.

目前的高波動性正在重新激發投資機會，並創造極具吸引力的交易機會。我們認為，這種環境非常適合我們的核心優勢。我們的短期貸款組合持續穩定地回報本金，使我們能夠以更高的收益率重新配置資本。與以往市場承壓時期一樣，我們動態的對沖策略、多樣化的投資組合、廣泛的融資基礎以及低槓桿率，都有助於我們保護帳面價值。

To that point, please turn to slide 19. As Mark mentioned, we have built up our credit hedges considerably since mid-2024. So we were able to amass a significant portfolio of credit hedges when spreads were much higher than they are now. Even though our assets are mortgage focused, we mostly use derivatives on corporate bonds, especially high yield corporate bonds to hedge credit risk, because of their liquidity and their robust protection in big market tail events, like what we saw during COVID.

關於這一點，請翻到第19張投影片。正如馬克所提到的，自2024年年中以來，我們大幅建立了信用對沖。因此，在利差遠高於現在的情況下，我們能夠累積大量的信用對沖組合。儘管我們的資產主要集中在抵押貸款上，但我們主要使用公司債衍生性商品，尤其是高收益公司債來對沖信用風險，因為它們流動性強，並且在重大市場尾部事件（例如新冠疫情期間）中具有強大的保護作用。

We also opportunistically use CMBS to hedge. Those are credit default swaps on commercial mortgage backed securities. On this slide, you can see that at quarter end, our corporate credit hedges alone represented an estimated short position of over $450 million high yield corporate bonds.

我們也適時利用商業抵押貸款支援證券（CMBS）進行避險。這些是商業抵押貸款擔保證券的信用違約掉期。在這張投影片中，您可以看到，截至季度末，光是我們的企業信用對沖就相當於持有超過4.5億美元的高收益企業債券空頭部位。

For context, that figure one year prior was only about $120 million. In April, those credit hedges did their job beautifully. They generated huge profits and cash for us, when credit spreads blew out earlier in the month. And for the full month of April, even with credit spreads staging somewhat of a recovery later on, they still helped to offset valuation declines that we saw in the loan portfolio. As a result, despite the widespread market weakness in April, we estimate that, our economic return was still positive for the month.

相較之下，一年前這個數字僅約1.2億美元。 4月份，這些信貸對沖措施發揮了出色的作用。當月早些時候信貸利差大幅擴大時，它們為我們帶來了巨額利潤和現金。在整個4月份，即使信貸利差隨後有所回升，它們仍然有助於抵消我們在貸款組合中看到的估值下降。因此，儘管4月份市場普遍疲軟，但我們估計，當月我們的經濟回報仍然為正。

In summary, with our strong capital base, ample liquidity, highly-diversified portfolio strategy, disciplined leverage and active hedging, I believe that, we are exceptionally well-positioned to take advantage of the recharged opportunity set that we're seeing in this period of heightened market volatility.

總而言之，憑藉我們強大的資本基礎、充足的流動性、高度多元化的投資組合策略、嚴格的槓桿和積極的對沖，我相信，我們完全有能力利用我們在市場波動加劇時期所看到的重新充電的機會。

With that, let's open the floor to Q&A. Operator, please go ahead.

下面，我們開始問答環節。請接線生開始。

(Operator Instructions) Crispin Love, Piper Sandler.

（操作員指示）克里斯賓·洛夫、派珀·桑德勒。

Just drilling a little bit deeper on the volatility that you've seen in the past months setting you up for some attractive trading opportunities. So far have you been able to deploy a material amount of capital in these types of trades? And then, also where are you seeing the best opportunities in addition to the credit hedges that you've called out?

我想稍微深入探討一下過去幾個月您觀察到的波動性，這為您帶來了一些相當吸引人的交易機會。到目前為止，您是否能夠在這些類型的交易中投入大量資金？此外，除了您提到的信用對沖之外，您還看到了哪些最佳機會？

Hi, Crispin. It's JR. Thanks. Mark, do you want me to start off with the first half of that? Sorry to interrupt you, the first half of the question and then you can do the second half?

嗨，克里斯平。我是JR。謝謝。馬克，你要我先回答前半部嗎？抱歉打擾你了，先回答問題的前半部分，然後你可以回答後半部分嗎？

Yes, absolutely.

是的，絕對是。

Thanks, Crispin. Crispin, I would say not material growth in April, but the portfolio has grown net relative to where we were March 31. I would put the growth in two buckets, bucket one being continuing to grow loan portfolio.

謝謝，克里斯平。我想說的是，4月份的投資組合成長雖然不算實質成長，但相對於3月31日的水平，投資組合實現了淨成長。我會把成長分成兩個方面，第一方面是貸款組合的持續成長。

So I think non-QM, close-in seconds, proprietary reverse, kind of somewhat ordinary course, although we've seen spreads widened and recharging the opportunity set. But then in bucket two, we're able to pick up securities more opportunistically and non-agency MBS for example has grown in April in that category. So we have grown in those areas.

所以我認為非量化管理債券、近乎秒債券、自營反向債券等，這在某種程度上是正常的，儘管我們看到利差擴大，機會組合正在重新充值。但在第二個類別中，我們能夠更精準地選擇證券，例如，非機構MBS在4月就出現了成長。所以我們在這些領域都有成長。

And Mark, I don't know if you want to talk about more specifically what you like and what you're seeing in this market?

馬克，我不知道您是否想更具體地談談您喜歡什麼以及您在這個市場上看到了什麼？

Sure. Yes. So there was, by middle of April, I mean, the volatility was really extreme. And so, to put a perspective on it, we saw quality non-QM deals from good originators with AAA is priced at 190 to the curve and those same deals earlier in the year were 115 to 120 to the curve.

當然。是的。所以，到了四月中旬，波動性確實非常大。所以，從這個角度來看，我們看到來自AAA級優秀發起人的優質非QM交易的定價為曲線的190倍，而今年早些時候的同類交易的定價為曲線的115到120倍。

So 70-odd basis points widening. Now Larry mentioned, the deal we did end April, give you a sense what the recovery is. We wound up getting 160 in our AAA. So waiting out sort of the eye of the storm, definitely worked our advantage. But by mid April, when you saw these 190 prints on AAA, there were people pretty nervous. So we were able to buy some loan packages that made sense even assuming 190 execution, the top part of the capital stack.

所以收益率差距擴大了70多個基點。拉里提到了，我們4月底達成的交易，讓你大致了解復甦的程度。我們最後獲得了160個AAA級債券。所以，等待「風暴眼」的過去，無疑對我們有利。但到了4月中旬，當你看到AAA級債券殖利率達到190個基點時，人們開始感到緊張。所以我們能夠購買一些貸款方案，即使假設執行利率達到190個基點，也就是資本結構的最高部分，這些方案也是合理的。

And also, CUSIP, we mentioned I mentioned in the prepared remarks, how we're seeing a better, a richer opportunity set in non-agency CUSIPs than we had maybe a couple of years ago. And part of that is non-agency securitization market has grown in jumbos, in non-QM, in seconds. And so, we actively find opportunities in buying securities in that market. And a lot of times, there's a pretty healthy new issue concession that we can capture and monetize. So those probably have been the biggest areas.

另外，我在準備好的演講稿中提到過，非機構CUSIP市場比幾年前擁有更好、更豐富的機會。部分原因是非機構證券化市場在巨額債券、非量化管理債券和秒級債券方面迅速發展。因此，我們積極尋找在該市場購買證券的機會。很多時候，我們都能抓住相當可觀的新發行優惠，並將其貨幣化。所以，這些可能是我們最大的投資領域。

Great. I appreciate all the color there, JR, Mark. Then you also called out the resolutions in some of your commercial bridge loans recently. Can you just give a little bit more detail on what those resolutions look like? Were the loans modified? Were they sold? Just curious on those details. And then, the positive impact you would expect to see to ADE from those resolutions on a go forward basis?

太好了。 JR，Mark，我很欣賞你們的精彩介紹。然後，你們最近也提到了一些商業過橋貸款的決議。能否更詳細地介紹一下這些決議的具體內容？貸款被修改了嗎？它們被出售了嗎？我只是對這些細節感到好奇。然後，你們預期這些決議未來會為ADE帶來什麼正面影響？

Sure. So let me think. One was a discounted payoff. One that's scheduled to close today is an REO sale. And then, we have another that goes in active CapEx and lease up that's a longer horizon. In total, the fair value on those at quarter end were, excuse me, at year end were in the $50 million to $60 million range and we've resolved by fair value a little less than half of that.

當然。讓我想想。一筆是折價付款。一筆計劃今天完成的是REO出售。然後，我們還有另一筆是主動資本支出和租賃，期限更長。總的來說，這些款項在季度末的公允價值，不好意思，在年底的公允價值在5000萬到6000萬美元之間，我們已經以公允價值結算了其中略低於一半的金額。

So freeing up $20 million to $25 million to reinvest and maybe some financing on that as well. But the numbers aren't huge, but they're disproportionate in terms of not just being available to invest in high-yield assets, but also turning off negative carry on the underlying.

因此，可以釋放2000萬到2500萬美元再投資，或許還能獲得一些融資。雖然金額不大，但就投資高收益資產和消除標的資產的負利差而言，這些資金顯得格格不入。

Yes. Just as we said, we think by the end of the second quarter, we'll just have one significant one left. That's I think in the $30 million-odd, in terms of the value of that. And that's great. So we really just are going to have some continued negative ADE drag from that, but that's a very small, obviously, percentage of our portfolio. So I think it's great to have these behind us.

是的。正如我們所說，我們認為到第二季末，我們只剩下一個重要的項目。我認為它的價值在3000萬美元左右。這很棒。因此，這確實會持續為我們帶來一些負面的ADE拖累，但這顯然只占我們投資組合的一小部分。所以，我認為這些項目已經過去了，真是太好了。

And I think in retrospect, compared to what a lot of other lenders, especially lenders in the commercial space, have seen, I think we did great in terms of limiting how many problem assets we end up having and I think we're towards the end here a lot sooner than other people. So I think, yes, teams have done a great job.

回想起來，與許多其他貸款機構，尤其是商業領域的貸款機構相比，我們在限制問題資產數量方面做得很好，而且我認為我們比其他人更快地走向了盡頭。所以我認為，是的，團隊做得很好。

Yes. I would just clarify. So one, an REO sale, it's pretty straightforward. Maybe discounted payoff, it was in a bankruptcy process. So it was it's a little more complicated than that, but to give you a flavor of how the resolution happened. I just want to say one more thing. That bankruptcy asset was an asset that we had inherited from Arlington. So even then, not something that was the result of our underwriting team. So I think they've done a great job.

是的。我只是想澄清一下。首先，REO 的出售很簡單。可能是折價收益，當時是在破產程序中。所以情況比這要複雜一些，但為了讓大家大致了解最終的解決過程，我只想再說一件事。那筆破產資產是我們從阿靈頓繼承來的。即便如此，它也不是我們承保團隊的成果。所以我認為他們做得很好。

Trevor Cranston, Citizens JMP.

特雷弗·克蘭斯頓 (Trevor Cranston)，公民 JMP。

Mark just mentioned the spread volatility you guys have seen in the securitization market so far in the second quarter. Does that high level of spread volatility have any material impact on your guys' near-term appetite for loan acquisitions given some level of uncertainty about ultimate securitization execution levels and can you maybe just provide some color on what loan acquisition activity has been like through the market volatility over the last several weeks? Thanks.

馬克剛才提到了你們在第二季迄今在證券化市場看到的利差波動。鑑於最終證券化執行水準存在一定程度的不確定性，如此高的利差波動是否會對你們近期的貸款收購意願產生實質影響？能否請您介紹一下過去幾週市場波動期間貸款收購活動的情況？謝謝。

Sure. This is Mark. That's a great question, right, because we think about that all the time. We have choices in these markets to just buy securities that other people make and sometimes you have to be deal sponsor to get the ones you want, sometimes you don't or taking a longer view and doing securitizations yourself and then retaining things that, you've had more control over the underwriting and more control over the guidelines and how the deal is put together.

當然。我是馬克。這個問題問得很好，因為我們一直在思考這個問題。在這些市場上，我們可以選擇直接購買其他人發行的證券，有時你必須成為交易發起人才能獲得你想要的證券，有時則不需要，或者你也可以從長遠角度考慮，自己進行證券化，然後保留那些你對承銷、指導方針以及交易如何進行擁有更多控制權的東西。

But if you want to do the latter, you have to go through a fairly long process, a couple of months process of ramp up, where you're acquiring loans, you're hedging the interest rate risk. We have been diligent about hedging, spread widening risk and then executing the deal in the open market. So there are pros and cons to both. When you see heightened volatility, if you don't get a corresponding widening of loans relative to securitization execution, then, it looks like that ramp up risk you might not be getting fully paid for it.

但如果你想選擇後者，你必須經歷一個相當漫長的過程，幾個月的加速過程，在此期間，你要收購貸款，對沖利率風險。我們一直在努力進行對沖，分散風險，然後在公開市場上執行交易。所以，兩者各有利弊。當你看到波動性加劇時，如果你的貸款規模沒有相對於證券化執行規模相應擴大，那麼，看起來，你可能無法完全抵消這種加速風險。

So I think our view of the world in April was that, when spreads really widened a lot, top of the capital stack, we thought that, the securities looked really cheap, a little bit cheaper than loans, and we responded by buying some securities.

因此，我認為，我們在四月份對世界的看法是，當利差確實擴大很多時，在資本堆疊的頂部，我們認為證券看起來真的很便宜，比貸款便宜一點，所以我們通過購買一些證券來應對。

Then, as you started to get a little bit more consistent pricing on deal execution, loans didn't fully tightened to reflect that, then we thought loans look attractive. I think one thing about April, which was very interesting and it was materially different than what you saw in kind of the last big stress was maybe March 2020, is that, in April, there were people that want to sell risk, but there were people that want to buy risk.

後來，隨著交易執行的定價開始趨於一致，貸款並沒有完全收緊以反映這一點，我們認為貸款看起來很有吸引力。我認為4月份的一個特點非常有趣，它與上次大壓力（可能是2020年3月）的情況有實質性的不同，那就是4月份，有人想賣出風險，也有人想買風險。

So it's not as though the origination market shut down the way it did in COVID, where you're kind of flying blind as to where securitizations would be and you had to price loans assuming just going to hold them in portfolio on repo, which is what we did.

因此，發起市場並不像新冠疫情期間那樣關閉，在那種情況下，你對證券化的位置一無所知，而且你必須對貸款進行定價，假設只是將它們持有在回購投資組合中，而我們就是這麼做的。

But in April, there were as many or more buyers I think than there were sellers. So deals were getting consistently done. The way they were getting priced, they were getting priced very quickly. So there was capital on each side of the market. So I think that definitely gave us a little more confident in things.

但我認為4月買家數量和賣家數量一樣多，甚至更多。所以交易一直持續進行。他們的定價方式非常迅速。所以市場雙方都有資本。我認為這無疑讓我們對市場更有信心。

So I think the first leg we thought securitizations had lagged, we're a little cheap, we had some securitizations. And then through the course of the month, as we saw opportunities to buy loans and you had better transparency and just tighter spreads on securitizations, then we thought loans look attractive relative to securitizations and ultimately sort of re-expressed that by pricing and securitization, I guess, last week or week before in April.

所以我認為，起初我們認為證券化發展落後，價格有點便宜，我們有一些證券化產品。然後，在整個月中，隨著我們看到購買貸款的機會，而且透明度更高，證券化的利差也更窄，我們認為貸款相對於證券化更具吸引力，最終，我猜，在四月的上週或前一周，這種吸引力通過定價和證券化再次得到體現。

And if I could just add one more thing to that, Mark. The velocity, the frequency of our especially in non-QM securitizations has increased a lot versus where it was a couple of years ago, for example. So instead of doing one deal a quarter, we're looking at under normal circumstances do at least two deals a quarter, right? So that just cuts down the time frames.

馬克，我再補充一點。我們尤其是非量化管理資產證券化的交易速度和頻率，與幾年前相比，已經大幅提升。所以，我們通常每季至少會做兩筆交易，而不是每季只做一筆，對吧？這樣就縮短了時間。

So when we're if we're buying a loan package. We might be doing a securitization, granted not of those very loans, but of loans that we've held, we might be doing a securitization in that same week, for example, that we're buying a new loan package. And so, you're derisking one package and then putting on risk in another. And if you have this frequent volume of securitizations, that just limits kind of that gestation risk, if you will.

所以，如果我們購買貸款組合，我們可能會進行證券化，當然不是針對這些貸款本身，而是針對我們持有的貸款。例如，我們可能在購買新貸款組合的同一週進行證券化。這樣，你就是在降低一個組合的風險，然後再將風險轉移到另一個組合。如果你能頻繁地進行證券化，就能在一定程度上限制這種孕育風險。

And at the same time, as we mentioned, we are doing something that we think not a lot of other people are doing, which is we're using credit hedges to mitigate those spread movements. And we've found that they've been extremely effective and correlated with the spreads that we've seen in the securitization markets versus how our hedges have reacted. So we think that's working well for us.

同時，正如我們所提到的，我們正在做一些我們認為其他人沒有做過的事情，那就是利用信用對沖來緩解利差波動。我們發現，這些措施非常有效，並且與我們在證券化市場中觀察到的利差以及我們的對沖措施的反應之間存在相關性。因此，我們認為這對我們來說效果很好。

Randy Binner, B. Riley.

蘭迪·賓納、B.萊利。

I think we heard in the prepared remarks that you're in discussions with potential JVs with two originators. Just wondering, if you can share kind of timing on that or any size, so we might gauge the impact there?

我想我們在準備好的發言中已經聽說，您正在與兩家原廠藥公司洽談潛在的合資企業。您能否分享一下具體的時間安排或規模，以便我們評估其影響？

Sure. Yes. Thanks, Randy. I would say that, maybe starting with size neither of these is a large investment under $5 million I think in total would be our equity investment. So but we have a stable of these types of small investments that have produced loan flow well multiples in excess of what our equity investment is.

當然。是的。謝謝，蘭迪。我想說，從規模上來說，這些投資可能都不到500萬美元，我認為總金額應該算是我們的股權投資。但是，我們有一些這類小型投資，它們產生的貸款流遠遠超過股權投資的數倍。

So I think we point those two deals out in term sheet stage. I think we put it to point out that we're further diversifying our sourcing channels in the same products, not necessarily that either will be material in size, but just adding to the stable of originator investments that have been successful for us over the last couple of years.

所以我認為我們在條款清單階段就指出了這兩筆交易。我們提出這一點是為了表明我們正在進一步多元化同一產品的採購管道，這不一定意味著任何一筆交易的規模都會很大，而只是在過去幾年裡，我們一直在穩定地投資原發商，並取得了成功。

Yes. And it's a win, win. I mean, even with the amount of money that we're providing in terms of working operating capital for them may not be a big number for us in terms of an investment. But it's very meaningful, especially for an originator that is not so long established for them to ramp up. And so, a lot of these smaller originators just getting started. They could be originating $40 million a month, something like that, pretty soon after we supply that working capital.

是的，這是一個雙贏的局面。我的意思是，即使我們為他們提供的營運資金數額不大，但就投資而言，這對我們來說可能不算什麼。但這非常有意義，尤其是對於那些成立時間不長、難以快速發展的發起人而言。很多小型發起人才剛起步。在我們提供這筆營運資金後，他們可能很快就能每月籌集到4000萬美元左右的資金。

And so, if that's supplying us close to $0.5 billion a year alone, it's just a win, win for both parties, right? They it jump starts turbo chargers their growth, gives them they don't have to worry about an outlet for their product. They could even sell to us on a forward basis, which they do all the time.

所以，如果每年僅此一項就能為我們帶來近5億美元的收入，那對雙方來說就是雙贏，對吧？這能加速他們的成長，讓他們不用擔心產品銷路。他們甚至可以以預售的方式向我們銷售產品，他們一直都是這麼做的。

So they can even lock-in a sale even if they haven't originated the loans yet. So there's just lots of advantages going both ways. These are great joint venture arrangements that we've put in overtime and we now have a lot of these.

所以，即使他們還沒有發放貸款，也可以鎖定銷售。所以，這對雙方來說都有很多好處。這些都是我們加班建立起來的很棒的合資安排，現在我們有很多這樣的安排。

Yes. And I'd say timing wise next quarter or two is the expectation.

是的。我預計時間會在下個或兩個季度。

Got it. Okay. Thank you for that. But they're small, but agree on your comments. And then, I just one more if I could. Just something that Mark said stood out to me and that kind of the increased value on consumer relationships and how Rocket Coupe is example of that. I guess the question I have is that just a reflection of this lock-in effect where the mortgage rates are higher now than they were before, or is this more of a permanent shift in your view?

明白了。好的。謝謝你。雖然規模不大，但我同意你的意見。然後，如果可以的話，我再問一句。馬克說的一句話讓我印象深刻，像是消費者關係的提升，以及Rocket Coupe就是一個典型例子。我的問題是，這只是鎖定效應的體現，也就是現在的抵押貸款利率比以前更高，還是在你看來，這是一種永久性的轉變？

A lot of cross selling options. Yes, go ahead, Mark.

有很多交叉銷售的選擇。是的，說吧，馬克。

I think it's something bigger than that because you had Rocket Coupe, but before that you had Rocket Redfin, right? So it's this notion that, let's think about home buying as a process and there's services rendered and there's fees paid along the way.

我覺得這比那要大得多，因為你們之前有 Rocket Coupe，但之前還有 Rocket Redfin，對吧？所以，我們把買房看成一個過程，過程中需要提供服務，也需要支付費用。

So first you have a real estate agent, then you find a home, then you buy a home. With that, there's real estate commission. There's, title insurance. There's mortgage insurance. Then you get a loan. Then you're in that loan for three years, maybe rates drop, and then you refinance the loan. Then, your family needs change, maybe you sell that house and get another house.

所以，首先你要找個房產經紀人，然後找房子，最後買房。期間還要付房產佣金，還要買產權保險和房貸保險。然後你才能貸款。貸款期間三年，利率可能會下降，然後你再融資。之後，你的家庭需求發生變化，也許你會賣掉那棟房子，再買一間。

So I think there is a notion growing among the really scale players that, if I establish a relationship with a customer now and I maintain that relationship over that customer's life, there might be four or five loans. There might be three houses. There's a lot of fees and commissions and things paid along the way, not to mention the cross sell of second liens or consumer loans. And so, it's not that different than what you see in other parts of the economy, where the scale players have gained market share. You certainly see it in the National Builders.

所以我認為，真正規模化的參與者中正在形成一種觀念：如果我現在與一位客戶建立關係，並在其一生中維持這種關係，那麼可能會有四五筆貸款，甚至可能是三套房子。這其中會有許多費用、佣金和其他費用，更不用說二次留置權或消費貸款的交叉銷售了。所以，這與你在其他經濟領域看到的情況並沒有什麼不同，在這些領域，規模化參與者獲得了市場份額。你肯定在全國建築商中看到了這種情況。

So if you start thinking about the world that way, then who are the clients that you think you want to have the strongest relationships with? It's going to be clients that have a history of paying their bills as reflected in their FICO score. It's clients that have demonstrated an ability to save, as demonstrated by showing up with 20%, 25% down payment to buy a home.

那麼，如果你開始這樣思考這個世界，那麼你認為最想與哪些客戶建立最牢固的關係呢？答案是，那些歷史悠久、按時還款的客戶，這反映在他們的FICO信用評分上。那些展現出儲蓄能力的客戶，例如願意支付20%或25%的首付來買房。

And so, I think there's that is sort of what's going on. I mean, if you look at like -- it's not that different from American Express buying resi. Okay, you're going to have you're going to make restaurant reservations and maybe you're going to make hotel plans. You're going to put everything on your American Express card. So that way of thinking is in the mortgage space now.

所以，我認為這就是正在發生的事情。我的意思是，如果你仔細想想——這和美國運通購買住宅沒什麼不同。好吧，你會預訂餐廳，也許還會制定酒店計劃。你會把所有東西都記在你的美國運通卡上。所以這種思維方式現在也存在於抵押貸款領域。

That's really interesting. I appreciate the comments.

這真的很有趣。我很感謝大家的評論。

Bose George, KBW.

博斯喬治，KBW。

Hi, guys. This is actually [Frank Betty] on for Bose. Just to start, last quarter you mentioned $0.09 earnings for the Longbridge segment for like long for run rate. Is that still achievable, given current trends?

大家好。我是[Frank Betty]，代表Bose公司報道。首先，上個季度您提到Longbridge部門的長​​期獲利為0.09美元。考慮到目前的趨勢，這個目標還能達成嗎？

Yes. We think it is. They were $0.07 of ADE in Q1, which as a percentage of their capital usage covers $0.39, but we did we have said kind of consistently $0.09 is the longer-term run rate as we see it. Their volumes were down seasonally. So they originated $420 million combined tech and prop in Q4 down to $340 million in Q1, I think largely seasonally driven.

是的，我們認為是的。他們第一季的ADE為0.07美元，佔其資本使用率的百分比為0.39美元，但我們確實說過，0.09美元是我們觀察到的長期運作率。他們的交易量因季節性而下降。因此，他們在第四季度共發起了4.2億美元的科技和自營投資，而第一季則下降至3.4億美元，我認為這主要是受季節性因素的影響。

So margins held up and they were still profitable within originations and servicing, you're setting aside the interest rate hedge. So with April selling season and April, excuse me, spring selling season and April looking good from a proper reverse submission perspective as Larry mentioned in his prepared remarks. I think we haven't changed the outlook for those reasons.

因此，利潤率保持穩定，並且在貸款發放和服務業務中仍然盈利，這需要將利率對沖因素放在一邊。因此，正如拉里在準備好的演講稿中提到的那樣，4月份是銷售旺季，4月份，不好意思，是春季銷售旺季，從正確的反向提交角度來看，4月份的業績看起來不錯。我認為我們沒有因為這些原因而改變前景。

Also it's going to be a little lumpy based upon securitization activity at Longbridge. So we did not do a deal in the first quarter, but I think, we expect to do one shortly. So every time when we do the deals, that's when they ring the cash register in terms of the AD on origination profits, so on prop. So with that prop reverse deal securitization deal expected to come soon, and you didn't have one in the first quarter, I think that explains a lot of it as well.

此外，由於Longbridge的證券化活動，業績也會有些波動。我們第一季沒有達成交易，但我認為我們預計很快就會達成一筆。所以，每次我們進行交易時，他們都會根據發起利潤的AD（廣告支出）以及自營業務的AD（自營業務）來收錢。所以，預計很快就會有自營業務反向交易的證券化交易，而你們第一季卻沒有達成，我認為這也在很大程度上解釋了為什麼。

Great. Thank you. And then you noted some sales of CLOs during the quarter. Can you just talk about current performance and dynamics in that market? Thanks.

太好了，謝謝。您提到本季CLO的銷量有所成長。您能談談該市場目前的表現和動態嗎？謝謝。

Yes. I would say, CLOs for EFC have been a small part of the portfolio. It's ebbed-and-flowed kind of opportunistically across the last several years frankly. So it's more of a complementary business to the core businesses, loan businesses than a core business on its own.

是的。我想說，EFC 的 CLO 只是投資組合中的一小部分。坦白說，在過去幾年裡，它一直在機會主義式地起伏。所以，它更像是核心業務（貸款業務）的補充，而不是獨立的一項核心業務。

So a lot of the so the negative performance for CLOs came from spread widening, particularly in CLO equity, which is not necessarily reflective of underlying credit issues or impairments, but more reflective of wider credit spreads market wide.

因此，CLO 的負面表現很大程度上來自利差擴大，尤其是 CLO 股票，這不一定反映潛在的信用問題或損害，而更反映了整個市場信用利差的擴大。

So I would just highlight that for EFC, the invested amount of CLOs is a pretty small amount. I mean, in our earnings release you could see that we own CLOs of $28 million at March 31 down from $61 million at year end, but that compares to a total adjusted loan credit portfolio of $3.3 billion or 1% less, exactly.

所以我想強調的是，EFC 的 CLO 投資金額相當小。我的意思是，在我們的財報中，你可以看到我們截至 3 月 31 日持有的 CLO 金額為 2800 萬美元，低於年底的 6100 萬美元，但相比之下，調整後的貸款信貸組合總額為 33 億美元，確切地說，減少了 1%。

Thank you. And that was our final question today. We thank you for participating in the Ellington Financial first-quarter 2025 earnings conference call. You may disconnect your line at this time and have a wonderful day.

謝謝。這是我們今天的最後一個問題。感謝您參加Ellington Financial 2025年第一季財報電話會議。現在您可以掛斷電話了，祝您有美好的一天。