Deutsche Bank AG (DB) 2025 Q3 法說會逐字稿

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Q3 2025 Fixed Income conference call and live webcast. I'm Moritz, the Chorus Call operator. (Operator Instructions) and the conference is being recorded. (Operator Instructions) The conference must not be recorded for publication or broadcast.

女士們、先生們，歡迎參加 2025 年第三季固定收益電話會議和網路直播。我是Chorus Call的接線生莫里茲。 （接線員指示）會議正在錄音。（操作說明）會議內容不得錄製用於出版或廣播。

At this time, it's my pleasure to hand over to Philip Teuchner, Investor Relations. Please go ahead.

此時，我很高興將麥克風交給投資人關係部門的菲利普‧圖赫納。請繼續。

Good afternoon or good morning, and thank you all for joining us today. On the call, our Group Treasurer, Richard Stewart, will take us through some fixed income specific topics. For the subsequent Q&A session, we also have our CFO, James von Moltke, with us to answer your questions.

下午好/早安，感謝各位今天蒞臨。在電話會議上，我們的集團財務主管理查德·斯圖爾特將帶我們了解一些固定收益的具體主題。在隨後的問答環節，我們的財務長詹姆斯馮莫爾特克也將到場回答大家的問題。

The slides that accompany the topics are available for download from our website at db.com. After the presentation, we will be happy to take your questions.

本次講座的幻燈片可從我們的網站db.com下載。講座結束後，我們將樂意回答您的問題。

Before we get started, I just want to remind you that the presentation may contain forward-looking statements, which may not develop as we currently expect. Therefore, please take note of the precautionary warning at the end of our materials.

在正式開始之前，我想提醒各位，本次演講可能包含前瞻性陳述，這些陳述的發展可能不會像我們目前預期的那樣。因此，請注意我們資料末尾的警示訊息。

With that, let me hand over to Richard.

接下來，我將把麥克風交給理查。

Thank you, Philip, and welcome from me. We delivered record profitability in the first 9 months of 2025. We are tracking in line with our full year 2025 goals on all dimensions. 9-month revenues at EUR24.4 billion are fully in line with our full year goal of around EUR32 billion before FX effects.

謝謝你，菲利普，也歡迎你。我們在 2025 年前 9 個月實現了創紀錄的利潤。我們在各方面都按計劃推進，預計將實現2025年全年目標。前九個月的營收為244億歐元，完全符合我們未計匯率影響的全年目標，約320億歐元。

Adjusted costs are consistent with our guidance. Post-tax return on tangible equity is 10.9%, meeting our full year target of above 10% and our cost-income ratio at 63% is also consistent with our target of below 65%.

調整後的成本與我們的預期一致。稅後有形權益報酬率為 10.9%，達到我們全年 10% 以上的目標；成本收入比為 63%，也符合我們低於 65% 的目標。

Operating leverage drove our profit growth. Pre-provision profit was EUR9 billion in the first 9 months of 2025, up nearly 50% year-on-year or nearly 30% if adjusted for the impact of Postbank litigation impacts in both periods. We saw continued revenue growth of 7% with momentum across all businesses.

經營槓桿推動了我們的利潤成長。2025 年前 9 個月的撥備前利潤為 90 億歐元，同比增長近 50%，如果將 Postbank 訴訟的影響在兩個時期內進行調整，則同比增長近 30%。我們看到營收持續成長，成長率達到 7%，所有業務均保持成長動能。

Net commission and fee income was up 5% year on year, while net interest income across key banking book segments and other funding was essentially stable. 74% of revenues came from the more predictable revenue streams, the Corporate Bank, Private Bank, Asset Management and financing businesses in FIC.

淨佣金和手續費收入較去年同期成長5%，而主要銀行業務部門和其他融資業務的淨利息收入基本上保持穩定。 74%的收入來自較穩定的收入來源，包括公司銀行、私人銀行、資產管理以及固定收益、投資和信貸（FIC）領域的融資業務。

Cost discipline remains strong. Non-interest expenses were down 8% year on year with significantly lower nonoperating costs, largely due to the nonrepeat of Postbank litigation provisions, while adjusted costs were flat. And our asset quality remains solid. Provisions were in line with expectations, we had no exposure to recent high-profile cases.

成本控制依然穩健。非利息支出較去年同期下降 8%，非營運成本大幅降低，這主要是由於 Postbank 訴訟準備金不再重複計提，而調整後的成本則保持不變。我們的資產品質依然穩健。準備金符合預期，我們沒有受到近期備受矚目的案件的影響。

Let me now turn to our progress on the pairs of strategy execution on slide 3. We are on track to meet or exceed all our 2025 strategy goals. The compound annual revenue growth rate since 2021 was 6% in the middle of our range of between 5.5% and 6.5%. In a changing environment, we are benefiting from a well-diversified earnings mix.

現在讓我來看看投影片 3 中策略執行組合的進展。我們可望實現或超越所有2025年戰略目標。自 2021 年以來的複合年收入成長率為 6%，處於我們預期的 5.5% 至 6.5% 範圍的中間值。在不斷變化的環境中，我們受益於多元化的獲利結構。

Operational efficiencies stood at EUR2.4 billion, either delivered or expected from measures completed. In other words, 95% of our EUR2.5 billion goal. Capital efficiencies have already reached EUR30 billion in RWA reductions, the high end of our target range, and we continue to see scope for further efficiencies through year-end.

營運效率提升了 24 億歐元，這些提升要么已經實現，要么預計將透過已完成的措施實現。換句話說，我們已完成 25 億歐元目標的 95%。資本效率已透過降低風險加權資產 (RWA) 達到 300 億歐元，達到我們目標範圍的上限，我們預計到年底仍有進一步提高效率的空間。

During the quarter, we launched our second share buyback program of 2025 with a value of EUR250 million, which we completed last week. This brings cumulative distributions since 2022 to EUR5.6 billion.

本季度，我們啟動了 2025 年的第二次股票回購計劃，價值 2.5 億歐元，並於上週完成。這使得自 2022 年以來的累計分配額達到 56 億歐元。

Let's now turn to some remarks on our businesses on slide 4. We are delivering strength and strategic execution across all four businesses in our Global Hausbank. All businesses have delivered double-digit profit growth and all four have delivered double-digit RoTE in the first nine months.

現在讓我們來看第 4 張投影片，談談我們的業務。我們正在為全球豪斯銀行旗下所有四大業務部門提供實力和策略執行力。所有業務在前九個月均實現了兩位數的利潤成長，所有四家公司均實現了兩位數的股東回報率。

The Corporate Bank continues to further scale the Global Hausbank model and delivered strong fee growth of 5% in the first 9 months and was recognized as the best trade finance bank. Our Investment Bank has been there for clients through challenging times this year and has seen an increase in activity across the whole client spectrum.

企業銀行持續擴大全球 Hausbank 模式的規模，並在前 9 個月實現了 5% 的強勁手續費成長，並被公認為最佳貿易融資銀行。今年以來，我們的投資銀行在充滿挑戰的時期始終與客戶並肩前行，並且所有客戶群的業務活動都有所增加。

Private Bank has made tremendous progress with its transformation so far this year with 9 months profits up 71%. Our growth strategy in Wealth Management is paying off.

私人銀行今年以來在轉型方面取得了巨大進展，前9個月的利潤成長了71%。我們在財富管理領域的成長策略正在發揮成效。

Assets under management have grown by EUR40 billion year-to-date with net inflows of EUR25 billion. And in Asset Management, the combination of fee-based expansion with operational efficiency drives sustainable returns of 25%.

今年迄今為止，管理資產規模增加了 400 億歐元，淨流入資金為 250 億歐元。在資產管理領域，收費擴張與營運效率相結合，可實現 25% 的永續回報。

We are benefiting from our strength in European ETFs and are expanding our offering in that area. Turning now to net interest income on slide 5. NII across key banking book segments and other funding was EUR3.3 billion in the quarter.

我們受益於我們在歐洲 ETF 領域的優勢，並正在擴大我們在該領域的業務。現在就來看看第5張投影片中的淨利息收入。本季主要銀行帳簿部門及其他融資的淨利息收入為 33 億歐元。

Private Bank continues to deliver steady NII growth, supported by the ongoing rollover of our structural hedge portfolio as well as deposit inflows. For Bank, NII is slightly down quarter-on-quarter, principally driven by lower one-offs, but it continues to be supported by underlying portfolio growth as well as hedge rollover benefits.

私人銀行持續保持穩定的淨利息收入成長，這得益於我們結構性對沖組合的持續展期以及存款流入。對於銀行而言，淨利息收入環比略有下降，主要原因是非經常性收入減少，但基礎投資組合的成長以及對沖展期收益繼續為其提供支撐。

With respect to the full year, we are on track to meet our plans on a currency-adjusted basis. Turning to slide 6, which reflects market implied forward rates as of quarter end, we can see that our hedge portfolio positions us well.

就全年而言，按匯率調整後，我們預計將實現計劃目標。翻到第 6 張投影片，其中反映了截至季末的市場隱含遠期利率，我們可以看到我們的對沖組合使我們處於有利地位。

In the third quarter, the total volume invested long term staged around EUR245 billion or around EUR200 billion, excluding equity hedges. The result of our hedge approach is that a large proportion of our future NII is now locked in.

第三季度，長期投資總額約 2,450 億歐元，若不計入股票對沖，則約 2,000 億歐元。我們採取對沖策略的結果是，我們未來淨利息收入的很大一部分現在已被鎖定。

In addition, the absolute NII contribution of the hedge portfolio grows steadily as new hedges are executed above the rate of maturing hedges. In the appendix, you can also see that our NII sensitivity remains contained with a little change quarter-over-quarter.

此外，隨著新對沖交易的執行速度超過到期對沖交易的速度，對沖組合的絕對淨利息收入貢獻穩定成長。在附錄中，您還可以看到，我們的 NII 敏感度仍然保持在可控範圍內，每個季度略有變化。

Looking at the development of the loan book on slide 7, we can see that during the third quarter, loans grew by EUR3 billion adjusted for FX effects. The underlying quality of the loan book remains strong. Around two-thirds of our clients are located in Germany and Europe.

從第 7 張投影片的貸款帳簿發展可以看出，第三季經匯率調整後，貸款增加了 30 億歐元。貸款組合的基本品質依然強勁。我們的客戶約有三分之二位於德國和歐洲。

Our loan portfolio in the Investment Bank shows sustained growth driven by FIC as well as encouraging momentum in M&A.

在FIC的推動下，我們的投資銀行貸款組合呈現持續成長，同時併購業務也展現出令人鼓舞的動能。

In the Private Bank, we continue to deliver on our strategic commitment to a capital-efficient balance sheet through further targeted mortgage reductions, while we also saw encouraging growth in Wealth Management.

在私人銀行業務方面，我們繼續履行對資本效率高的資產負債表的策略承諾，進一步有針對性地減少抵押貸款，同時我們也看到了財富管理業務令人鼓舞的成長。

In the Corporate Bank, client demand remained muted this quarter as geopolitical uncertainties continue to persist. However, looking ahead, we expect lending in the core bank to benefit from the fiscal stimulus in Germany and to accelerate over the course of 2026. The lending outlook also remains strong in FIC and reflects our strategic focus on growing the franchise and expanding market share.

由於地緣政治不確定性持續存在，本季企業銀行客戶需求依然疲軟。不過，展望未來，我們預期核心銀行的貸款將受益於德國的財政刺激措施，並在 2026 年加速成長。FIC的貸款前景依然強勁，這反映了我們專注於發展特許經營權和擴大市場份額的策略重點。

Moving now to deposits on slide 8, our well-diversified deposit book has grown by EUR10 billion during the third quarter adjusted for FX effects. Our portfolio continues to be of high quality, supported by a strong domestic footprint and a substantial level of insured deposits. Deposit growth has been most pronounced in the Private Bank, where we saw continued momentum and strong inflows from our retail campaigns in Germany.

現在來看第 8 張投影片中的存款狀況，經匯率調整後，我們多元化的存款組合在第三季成長了 100 億歐元。我們的投資組合依然保持高品質，這得益於強大的國內業務佈局和大量的受保存款。私人銀行的存款成長最為顯著，我們在德國的零售業務活動帶來了持續的成長動能和強勁的資金流入。

The Corporate Bank portfolio has also grown during the quarter, driven by inflows in site deposits on the back of high client engagement. For the remainder of the year, we expect further inflows from deposit campaigns in the Private Bank, while we also see opportunities for growth and portfolio optimizations in the Corporate Bank.

本季，由於客戶參與度高，現場存款流入增加，企業銀行投資組合也隨之成長。今年剩餘時間裡，我們預期私人銀行的存款活動將帶來更多資金流入，同時我們也看到了企業銀行的成長和投資組合優化機會。

On slide 9, we highlight the development of our key liquidity metrics. We managed our liquidity coverage ratio to 140% at quarter end, thereby demonstrating the inherent strength and resilience of our balance sheet.

在第 9 張投影片中，我們重點介紹了關鍵流動性指標的發展。截至季末，我們的流動性覆蓋率達到 140%，這充分體現了我們資產負債表的內在實力和韌性。

The surplus above the regulatory minimum increased by about EUR5 billion due to slightly higher HQLA and reduced net cash outflows. We continue to maintain a high-quality liquidity buffer and hold about 95% of HQLA in cash and Level 1 securities.

由於 HQLA 略有提高和淨現金流出減少，超過監管最低限額的盈餘增加了約 50 億歐元。我們繼續保持高品質的流動性緩衝，並將約 95% 的高品質流動性緩衝以現金和一級證券的形式持有。

The net stable funding ratio slightly decreased to 119% with a surplus above regulatory requirements of EUR101 billion. This reflects our stable funding base with more than 2/3 of the group's funding sources coming from our global deposit franchise.

淨穩定資金比率略微下降至 119%，盈餘超過監管要求 1,010 億歐元。這反映了我們穩定的資金基礎，集團超過三分之二的資金來源來自我們的全球存款業務。

Turning to capital on slide 10, strong third quarter earnings net of AT1 coupon and dividend deductions led to an increase in the CET1 ratio to 14.5%, up 26 basis points sequentially. RWA remained flat during the quarter as an increase in credit risk RWA driven by higher loans and commitments was offset by a reduction in market risk, notably in SVaR.

在第 10 張投影片中，我們來看資本方面，第三季強勁的收益扣除 AT1 利息和股息後，CET1 比率上升至 14.5%，環比上升 26 個基點。本季 RWA 保持平穩，貸款和承諾增加導致的信貸風險 RWA 增加被市場風險（特別是 SVaR）的降低所抵消。

As we head into the fourth quarter, let me remind you of the 27 basis points CET1 benefit we still have from the adoption of the Article 468 CRR transitional rule for unrealized gains and losses, which will expire at the end of the year. Also following revised EBA guidance from June 2025 regarding the calculation of operational risk RWA under the new standardized approach, we must now perform the annual update of operational risk RWA already by the end of 2025, which is expected to lead to a 19 basis points drawdown in CET1 ratio terms.

進入第四季之際，我想提醒各位，由於採用了《資本要求條例》第 468 條關於未實現損益的過渡性規定，我們仍然享有 27 個基點的 CET1 收益，該收益將於年底到期。此外，根據歐洲銀行管理局 (EBA) 於 2025 年 6 月發布的關於根據新的標準化方法計算操作風險 RWA 的修訂指南，我們現在必須在 2025 年底之前完成操作風險 RWA 的年度更新，預計這將導致 CET1 比率下降 19 個基點。

All else equal, applying these 2 items to our third quarter CET1 ratio results in a pro forma CET1 ratio of approximately 14%, which is also roughly where we expect currently to finish the year. Our capital ratios remain well above regulatory requirements, as shown on slide 11. The CET1 MDA buffer now stands at 325 basis points or EUR11 billion of CET1 capital. The 25 basis points quarter-on-quarter buffer increase reflects our higher CET1 ratio buffer. The buffer to total capital requirement decreased by 8 basis points and now stands at 362 basis points.

在其他條件相同的情況下，將這兩個因素應用於我們第三季的CET1比率，得出的模擬CET1比率約為14%，這也大致符合我們目前對今年年底的預期。如投影片 11 所示，我們的資本適足率仍遠高於監理要求。目前 CET1 MDA 緩衝資本為 325 個基點，相當於 110 億歐元的 CET1 資本。季度環比增加 25 個基點的緩衝資金反映了我們更高的 CET1 比率緩衝資金。資本緩衝與總資本要求之比下降了 8 個基點，目前為 362 個基點。

Moving to slide 12, our third-quarter leverage ratio was 4.6%, down 11 basis points, principally from higher loans and commitments alongside increased settlement activities at quarter end. Tier 1 capital was essentially flat in the quarter as the derecognition of the $1.25 billion AT1 instrument that we called in September materially offset the quarter-on-quarter increase in CET1 capital.

翻到第 12 張投影片，我們第三季的槓桿率為 4.6%，下降了 11 個基點，主要原因是貸款和承諾增加，以及季末結算活動增加。本季一級資本基本上持平，因為我們在 9 月終止確認的 12.5 億美元 AT1 工具在很大程度上抵消了 CET1 資本的季度環比增長。

We continue to operate with significant loss-absorbing capacity well above all requirements as shown on slide 13. The MREL surplus, our most binding constraint, increased by EUR2 billion to EUR26 billion. Our surplus thus remains at a comfortable level, which continues to provide us with the flexibility to pause issuing new eligible liabilities instruments for at least one year.

如投影片 13 所示，我們持續保持著遠超過所有要求的顯著損耗吸收能力。MREL盈餘是我們最迫切的約束條件，增加了20億歐元，達到260億歐元。因此，我們的盈餘仍處於較為舒適的水平，這使我們能夠靈活地暫停發行新的合格負債工具至少一年。

Moving now to our issuance plan on slide 14, credit markets developed constructively in the third quarter, and our spreads also benefited from this trend. Our senior non-preferred bonds tightened by around 20 basis points on average in the quarter, allowing us to issue at attractive funding costs.

現在來看第 14 頁的發行計劃，信貸市場在第三季發展良好，我們的利差也受惠於此趨勢。本季度，我們的高級非優先債券平均收緊了約 20 個基點，使我們能夠以有吸引力的融資成本發行債券。

With year-to-date issuance of EUR15.1 billion, we have already reached the lower end of the range of our full year guidance. We reaffirm our target range of EUR15 billion to EUR20 billion for the full year. Since the last fixed income call in July, we issued EUR4.2 billion, primarily in senior nonpreferred format across euros and dollars. Residual funding for the year 2025 will be focused on the senior preferred instruments.

今年迄今為止，我們的債券發行量已達 151 億歐元，已達到全年預期範圍的下限。我們重申全年目標收入範圍為 150 億歐元至 200 億歐元。自 7 月上次固定收益債券發行以來，我們已發行了 42 億歐元債券，主要以歐元和美元計價的優先非優先債券發行。2025 年的剩餘資金將集中用於優先股。

Such issuance typically takes the form of private placements or retail targeted issuance as opposed to public benchmarks. We expect 2026 requirements to be in a similar, possibly slightly lower range as compared to 2025. As usual, in the fourth quarter, we may consider prefunding 2026 requirements depending on market conditions.

此類發行通常採用私募或零售定向發行的形式，而不是公開基準發行。我們預計 2026 年的需求量將與 2025 年類似，甚至可能略低。像往常一樣，在第四季度，我們可能會根據市場情況考慮預付 2026 年的需求。

To summarize on slide 15, we are on track to meet our full-year 2025 targets and remain confident in our trajectory to deliver a return on tangible equity of above 10% and a cost-income ratio of below 65%. Our year-to-date performance supports our revenue and expense objectives. Our asset quality remains solid and despite uncertainty from developments around commercial real estate as well as the macroeconomic environment, we continue to anticipate lower provisioning levels in the second half of the year.

綜上所述，如第 15 頁投影片所示，我們正按計畫實現 2025 年全年目標，並且對我們實現有形權益回報率超過 10% 和成本收入比低於 65% 的發展軌跡充滿信心。今年迄今的業績符合我們的收入和支出目標。我們的資產品質依然穩健，儘管商業房地產發展以及宏觀經濟環境存在不確定性，但我們仍預期下半年撥備水準將降低。

Our strong capital position and third quarter profit growth provide a solid foundation as we head into 2026. With year-to-date issuance of EUR15 billion, we have substantially met our issuance needs for the year.

我們雄厚的資本實力和第三季的利潤成長為我們邁向 2026 年奠定了堅實的基礎。今年迄今為止，我們已發行 150 億歐元，基本上滿足了今年的發行需求。

With that, let's turn to your questions.

那麼，接下來我們來回答您的問題。

(Operator Instructions) Lee Street, Citigroup.

（操作員指示）李街，花旗集團。

I have two questions, please. Firstly, and I'm not trying to front run your Investor Day. But as we look ahead to the next few years, do you think it's reasonable to presume that a 10% return on tangible equity should be like the floor of where we should be seeing Deutsche Bank perform on an annual basis? That would be my first question.

請問我有兩個問題。首先，我並不是想搶在你們的投資人日之前發言。但展望未來幾年，您認為德意志銀行的年度有形權益報酬率達到 10% 是否合理？這將是我的第一個問題。

And secondly, you hopefully gave details with your private credit exposures look quite light. You give a lot of detail on your commercial real estate exposure you have done for some time. Setting those two sectors aside, what other areas are on your watch list at the moment and where you're paying attention, getting briefings on? That would be my two questions.

其次，希望您能提供詳細信息，說明您的私人信用風險敞口看起來相當低。您詳細介紹了您一段時間以來在商業房地產領域的投資情況。撇開這兩個領域不談，目前還關注哪些其他領域？您正在關注哪些領域，並了解哪些領域的簡報？這就是我的兩個問題。

Thanks, Lee. It's James. Happy to take the questions. Look, without being drawn to specific numbers, we certainly are working over the years to come to put a good amount of distance between where we are operating at any given time and sort of a low point.

謝謝你，李。是詹姆斯。樂意回答大家的問題。你看，雖然我們不打算給出具體的數字，但我們肯定會在未來幾年努力，使我們目前的營運水平與低谷時期拉開相當大的差距。

This through-the-cycle thinking is not lost on us, in other words. And I do believe that the structural profitability of the company has risen to the point where numbers like what you throw out are entirely possible.

換句話說，我們並沒有忽略這種貫穿整個週期的思考方式。而且我相信，公司的結構性獲利能力已經提升到一定程度，就像你提到的那些數字完全有可能實現。

I think the other thing, specifically from a credit investors' perspective, the PPNR, and we still disclose the PPNR in Christian's slides in the equity deck, the PPNR that's associated with that profitability has become a larger and larger potential loss-absorbing kind of layer, as is the capital that's disregarded in the ratio as you go through the year on the payout level.

我認為另一點，特別是從信貸投資者的角度來看，PPNR（淨利潤率），我們仍然在 Christian 的股票演示文稿中披露 PPNR，與盈利能力相關的 PPNR 已經成為越來越大的潛在損失吸收層，就像在一年中支付水平上被忽略的資本一樣。

So without changing the ratio, you have some loss absorption as the year goes by. So I do believe it paints a more and more robust picture as time goes on.

因此，在不改變比例的情況下，隨著時間的推移，損失會逐漸被吸收。所以我相信隨著時間的推移，它會描繪出一幅越來越清晰的圖景。

On the credit side, you called out those two areas. Obviously, private credit for us was not a source of concern. It's a source of kind of watch given the potential read across, and we've done some work on that.

在信貸方面，你特別提到了這兩個領域。顯然，私人信貸對我們來說並不是一個令人擔憂的問題。考慮到其潛在的借鏡意義，這是一個值得關注的來源，我們已經對此進行了一些研究。

CRE has remained a soft spot for sure. And you've seen that in our quarterly reporting. We do expect in time there to be a healing of that market, and we've seen some initial positive indicators, but I think it remains a watch item.

商業地產一直是人們的軟肋。這一點您已經在我們的季度報告中看到了。我們預計隨著時間的推移，該市場會逐漸復甦，我們也看到了一些初步的正面跡象，但我認為這仍然是一個值得關注的領域。

I'd say beyond that, earlier this year, you'll recall, we've done a fair amount of work looking at our portfolio in terms of potential sensitivity to the trade changes and policy changes as well as specifically the automotive and manufacturing sectors in Germany.

除此之外，我想說的是，今年早些時候，您應該還記得，我們​​做了相當多的工作來研究我們的投資組合，以評估其對貿易變化和政策變化的潛在敏感性，特別是德國的汽車和製造業。

We've actually seen that hold up very well this year and are pleased with the performance. But no doubt, as the -- as kind of the world moves on, time moves on, it will remain a watch area for us.

今年我們已經看到這項策略取得了非常好的效果，我們對這一表現感到滿意。但毫無疑問，隨著世界的發展和時間的流逝，它仍將是我們的關注領域。

And I think the last thing to call out is sort of geopolitical risks. We tend to see very little exposure in our portfolios to the events that you've seen. But we, of course, continuously stress test for either real or potential events, and that's also an ongoing area of focus for us. I hope that helps, Lee.

最後要指出的是地緣政治風險。在我們的投資組合中，您所看到的這類事件的風險敞口往往很小。當然，我們會持續進行壓力測試，以應對真實或潛在的事件，這也是我們持續關注的領域。希望這對你有幫助，李。

Dan David, Autonomous.

丹大衛，自主。

Congratulations on the results. I've got three, if possible. The first maybe is just leading on from what Lee was just asking. I think as a result of one of your French peers, receivable financing is kind of the latest buzzword.

恭喜取得好成績。如果可以的話，我有三個。第一個「或許」只是對李剛才提出的問題的一種延伸。我認為，由於你們一位法國同業的緣故，應收帳款融資成了最新的熱門詞彙。

Can you just talk about your exposure in that area and where we would see it in the Deutsche Bank balance sheet if you do have exposure?

您能否談談您在該領域的風險敞口，以及如果您確實有風險敞口，我們會在德意志銀行的資產負債表中看到哪些相關內容？

The second one is on Tier 2. So you've maintained a Tier 2 deficit offset by the surplus in AT1 for a while now. Is that how we should think about your capital stack going forward? I guess, is that likely to change?

第二個在第二層級。所以，你們已經維持了一段時間的二級資源短缺，而一級資源盈餘則抵銷了這種短缺。我們未來是否應該這樣考慮您的資本結構？我想，這種情況有可能改變嗎？

And then the third one is a bit more broad on the topic of sustainability. Noting the kind of ongoing political developments in Europe, do you feel at a competitive disadvantage compared to U.S. peers as a result of the sustainable landscape in Europe? I would appreciate any thoughts.

第三點則更廣泛地探討了永續性這個主題。考慮到歐洲當前的政治形勢，您是否覺得由於歐洲的可持續發展格局，您與美國同行相比處於競爭劣勢？歡迎大家提出寶貴意見。

Sure, Dan, it's James. I'll perhaps take the first and third and ask Richard to take the capital stack question. Receivables financing, I can't tell you the sort of the size of the portfolio, but we -- in trade finance, we do some sort of supply chain financing.

當然，丹，我是詹姆斯。我或許會選擇第一和第三個問題，然後請理查來回答資本結構的問題。應收帳款融資方面，我無法告訴你投資組合的規模，但是我們在貿易融資方面，會進行一些供應鏈融資。

I don't think it's a large exposure, but it's certainly something that we do in trade finance. And there can be some exposures of that nature in ABS as well, in ABS format. So we have some exposures, but I would not think of it as a significant exposure for us as a group.

我認為風險敞口不大，但這確實是我們在貿易融資中會做的事情。ABS 中也可能出現一些此類曝光，以 ABS 格式呈現。所以，我們確實有一些風險暴露，但我認為這對我們整個團隊來說並非重大風險暴露。

As always, I don't want to sort of recite all of the sort of controls that we put around our book as a whole. But obviously, anything we do in receivable financing has the same type of first and second line scrutiny as we do in other secured and unsecured financing types.

像往常一樣，我不想贅述我們為整本書所設定的所有控制措施。但顯然，我們在應收帳款融資方面所做的任何事情，都會像在其他有擔保和無擔保融資類型中一樣，受到同樣的第一道和第二道審查。

On the sustainability side, I would not think of it as a competitive disadvantage. Let me make a few points.

從永續發展的角度來看，我不認為這是一個競爭劣勢。讓我說幾點。

Firstly, we've made a tremendous amount of progress in our overall sustainability agenda in the firm over the years, represented or recognized among other things in our ESG ratings, which have improved, but also the business activity that we do with clients as they think about their transition plans, sustainable financing, transition financing.

首先，多年來，我們在公司整體永續發展議程方面取得了巨大的進步，這體現在我們的 ESG 評級中，評級有所提高，此外，我們還與客戶開展業務活動，幫助他們考慮轉型計劃、可持續融資和轉型融資。

It's -- I don't want to go so far as to say it's a competitive advantage. But to a certain extent, the fact that it gets deemphasized perhaps by some of our peers across the Atlantic gives more of that space to us and others who remain sort of engaged on the topic.

我不想說這是一種競爭優勢。但在某種程度上，大西洋彼岸的一些同行可能對這個話題不太重視，反而為我們和其他仍關注這個話題的人提供了更多空間。

I noticed an article this week that spoke to higher financing levels for renewable energy sources this year than carbon-based energy sources. So to give you an example that the market is evolving.

我本週注意到一篇文章，文章指出今年再生能源的融資水準將高於碳基能源。舉個例子來說明市場正在不斷發展。

And clearly, there's also -- there's a revenue and business opportunity attached to some of this, which can be impacted by sort of changes in the landscape. So we don't think of it as a competitive disadvantage. The last point to make is just on the disclosure requirements.

顯然，其中一些也蘊含著收入和商業機會，而這些機會可能會受到市場環境變化的影響。所以我們不認為這是一種競爭劣勢。最後一點是關於資訊揭露要求。

Of course, we do embrace simplification and standardization of disclosure requirements and taxonomies because we've been through a big build phase in the world and in what the requirements are for banks.

當然，我們歡迎簡化和標準化揭露要求和分類，因為世界銀行業的要求已經經歷了一個大的建設階段。

And the more one can simplify that landscape without losing the benefit of some of the models, taxonomies, definitions that we've created over the years, obviously, that's a benefit to the banks.

如果能夠在不失去我們多年來創建的一些模型、分類和定義的好處的前提下，盡可能簡化這一格局，顯然這對銀行來說是有利的。

Dan, it's Richard here, and thanks for joining, and I'll pick up the Tier 2 question. So when we kind of think about our capital stack, we first kind of assess our Tier 1 capital needs first. And so once that is addressed, it kind of looks at the combination of both the Tier 1 and Tier 2 bucketing.

丹，我是理查德，感謝你的參與，我將回答第二層級的問題。所以，當我們考慮我們的資本結構時，我們首先要評估我們的一級資本需求。因此，一旦這個問題得到解決，它就會考慮第一層級和第二層級分類的組合。

And as you kind of seen over the last couple of years, we probably overpopulated our Tier 1 bucket just to solve for client demand for leverage. And so that is something that has been the approach we've taken over the last few quarters.

正如你在過去幾年所看到的，為了滿足客戶對槓桿的需求，我們可能過度增加了一級供應商的數量。所以，這就是我們在過去幾季採取的方法。

And we kind of expect kind of our current thinking for that to continue. Having said that, our Tier 2 instrument is still a useful instrument for us. We still think it's valuable. And so it's not saying we're precluding from issuing that space in the future.

我們預計這種目前的思維方式將會持續下去。儘管如此，我們的二級工具對我們來說仍然很有用。我們仍然認為它很有價值。所以，這並不意味著我們將來不會發行該空間。

Robert Smalley, MacKay Shields.

羅伯特·斯莫利，麥凱·希爾茲。

I have two. First on commercial real estate, which has been nettlesome. Could you talk a little bit about specifically where the issues are? I know on the REIT side, we get building-by-building type of disclosure.

我有兩個。首先是商業地產，這方面一直很棘手。能否具體談談問題出在哪裡？我知道在房地產投資信託基金方面，我們會獲得逐棟建築的資訊揭露。

But can we talk about where they are, what the plan is and how much restructuring you're looking at versus kind of nursing these things along for another couple of quarters? And if we are seeing restructuring, will it manifest itself in charge-offs in the fourth quarter?

但我們能否談談它們的現狀、計劃是什麼，以及你們正在考慮進行多少重組，還是繼續維持現狀幾個季度？如果確實存在重組，那麼第四季是否會反映在壞帳核銷上？

And then my second question on the supplement that came out yesterday on page 12, about 40%-plus of Stage 1, Stage 2 loans are off-balance sheet positions. Could you characterize what those are generally? Because they don't go into Stage 3.

然後，我的第二個問題是關於昨天發布的補充資料第 12 頁，其中 40% 以上的第一階段和第二階段貸款是表外頭寸。您能概括一下這些特徵是什麼嗎？因為他們沒有進入第三階段。

Is it mostly timing issues, et cetera, that puts them into Stage 1? And is there possibly a better way to do this than bucketing them in Stage 1, Stage 2, and Stage 3? Because it seems to pump up the numbers, but -- it seems to overstate the Stage 1 and Stage 2 numbers, but they seem to cure pretty easily.

導致他們進入第一階段的主要原因是時機問題等等嗎？有沒有比將它們分為第一階段、第二階段和第三階段更好的方法呢？因為它似乎誇大了數字，但是——它似乎誇大了第一階段和第二階段的數字，但這些階段的病例似乎很容易治癒。

Thanks, Rob. So it's James. There's a couple of answers to questions. On the CRE, the concentration of the CLPs that we've seen in the past couple of quarters has been in those exposures on the West Coast that we've referred to.

謝謝你，羅伯。原來是詹姆斯。問題有兩個答案。在商業房地產領域，我們在過去幾季看到的 CLP 的集中度都集中在我們之前提到的西海岸的那些風險敞口上。

So 60%, 70%, let's say, of the credit loss provisions this quarter has related to West Coast, and that's particularly California and Washington State. Where that goes from here, I spoke a little bit about yesterday, but what we do is look at the portfolio on a forward basis.

所以，假設本季信貸損失準備金中有 60% 到 70% 與西海岸有關，特別是加州和華盛頓州。至於未來的走向，我昨天已經略有提及，但我們所做的是以前瞻性的視角來審視投資組合。

First of all, looking at which loans are coming up for refinancing or extension and taking a view as to which will be sort of money good loans that are eligible for refinancing or extension.

首先，要看看哪些貸款需要再融資或延期，並判斷哪些貸款屬於優質貸款，符合再融資或延期的條件。

For those loans that are either sort of on the border or look to be troubled, we work intensively with the sponsors on what the strategy is for value sort of preservation creation.

對於那些處於臨界狀態或看起來有問題的貸款，我們會與發起人密切合作，制定價值保全策略。

I'd say that the tone of that effort has been -- has deteriorated a little bit as more of the equity has been consumed in the projects, but still remains overall positive, and we work -- we look to create sort of good outcomes and sharing of the burdens.

我認為，隨著更多股權投入到專案中，這項工作的基調有所惡化，但總體而言仍然是積極的，我們努力——我們尋求創造良好的結果並分擔負擔。

There is a small portfolio of real estate owned as well. To your question of what does that mean for the future, it's always going to be somewhat path dependent on what happens to appraisals, what happens to the individual buildings in terms of their lease footprint, in terms of sponsor decisions.

此外，他還擁有少量房地產資產。至於你問的這對未來意味著什麼，這始終在某種程度上取決於評估結果、各個建築物的租賃規模以及發起人的決策。

But at each quarter, we essentially mark the portfolio to our -- to the most recent appraisal and our expectations as to outcomes of those discussions.

但每個季度，我們基本上都會根據最近的評估以及我們對這些討論結果的預期來調整投資組合。

And we feel good about the marks, including incidentally in the most recent quarter, having taken a portfolio to the market and seen bids come back that have been, by and large, very close to where we had those positions marked.

我們對目前的評級感到滿意，尤其是在最近一個季度，我們將部分資產組合推向市場，得到的報價總體上與我們對這些資產的評級非常接近。

So short version of all that, it's too early to call an end to the trend. But as I said yesterday, certainly, we'd like to think we're much closer to the end than the beginning, even on the West Coast, although that's where the uncertainty sort of lies.

簡而言之，現在就斷言這種趨勢已經結束還為時過早。但正如我昨天所說，我們當然希望我們離終點比起點更近，即使在西海岸也是如此，儘管不確定性也是如此。

Your reference to page 12, you are -- well, in essence, right, obviously, we follow the -- what the accounting standard requires in terms of the IFRS 9 provisioning and the portfolios against which the provisions are taken.

您提到的第 12 頁，您——嗯，本質上是對的，顯然，我們遵循——會計準則在 IFRS 9 撥備和計提撥備的投資組合方面的要求。

You can see that on off-balance sheet provisions, which are overwhelmingly essentially derivatives and, in some cases, committed facilities. So the amounts that are not recognized on the balance sheet, there tends to be a huge bias towards, obviously, Stages 1 and 2, much of that represents our trading businesses.

您可以從資產負債表外準備金中看出這一點，這些準備金絕大多數本質上是衍生品，在某些情況下是已承諾的授信額度。因此，資產負債表上未確認的金額，顯然很大程度上偏向第一階段和第二階段，其中大部分代表了我們的貿易業務。

You may recall, Rob, that in disrupted market environments, we sometimes have migrations of those portfolios down, but it's typically temporary as your question refers. I don't know if there's a better way to disclose, but as you can see, the associated provisions are relatively nominal.

羅布，你可能還記得，在市場環境動盪時，我們有時會將這些投資組合下調，但這通常是暫時的，正如你的問題所提到的那樣。我不知道是否有更好的揭露方式，但正如你所看到的，相關的準備金相對較低。

And I'm not sure how helpful at the end of the day, the disclosure is. Hopefully, that all helps. And, Rob, nice to have you with us.

我不確定最終這種披露究竟有多大幫助。希望這些對你有幫助。羅布，很高興你能加入我們。

(Operator Instructions) So it looks like there are no further questions at this time. Then I would like to turn the conference back over to Philip Teuchner for any closing remarks.

（操作說明）看來目前沒有其他問題了。然後，我想把會議交還給菲利普‧托伊克納，請他作總結發言。

Thank you, Moritz. And just to finish out, thank you all for joining us today. You know where the IR team is if you have any further questions, and we look forward to talking to you soon again. Goodbye, and have a nice day.

謝謝你，莫里茲。最後，感謝各位今天收看我們的節目。如果您還有其他問題，可以隨時聯繫投資者關係團隊，我們期待盡快再次與您溝通。再見，祝你今天愉快。

Ladies and gentlemen, the conference is now over. Thank you for choosing Chorus Call and thank you for participating in the conference. You may now disconnect your lines. Good-bye.

女士們、先生們，會議到此結束。感謝您選擇 Chorus Call，也感謝您參加本次會議。現在您可以斷開線路了。再見。