Cohu Inc (COHU) 2024 Q4 法說會逐字稿

Good day and thank you for standing by. Welcome to Cohu's fourth-quarter 2024 financial results conference call. (Operator Instructions)

您好，感謝您的支持。歡迎參加 Cohu 2024 年第四季財務業績電話會議。（操作員指令）

Please be advised that today's conference is being recorded.

請注意，今天的會議正在錄音。

I would now like to turn the conference over to Jeff Jones, Chief Financial Officer. Please go ahead.

現在，我想將會議交給財務長傑夫瓊斯 (Jeff Jones)。請繼續。

Good afternoon, and welcome to our conference call to discuss Cohu's fourth-quarter 2024 results and first-quarter 2025 outlook. I'm joined today by our President and CEO, Luis Muller.

下午好，歡迎參加我們的電話會議，討論 Cohu 2024 年第四季業績和 2025 年第一季度展望。今天和我一起出席的是我們的總裁兼執行長路易斯·穆勒 (Luis Muller)。

If you need a copy of our earnings release, you may access it from our website at cohu.com or by contacting Cohu Investor Relations. There's also a slide presentation in conjunction with today's call that may be accessed on Cohu's website in the Investor Relations section. Replays of this call will be available via the same page after the call concludes.

如果您需要我們的收益報告副本，您可以透過我們的網站 cohu.com 或聯絡 Cohu 投資者關係部取得。今天的電話會議還附有幻燈片演示，可在 Cohu 網站的「投資者關係」部分查看。通話結束後，可在同一頁面上重播本次通話。

Now to the Safe Harbor. During today's call, we will make forward-looking statements reflecting management's current expectations concerning Cohu's future business. These statements are based on current information that we have assessed which, by its nature, is subject to rapid and even abrupt changes.

現在來到安全港。在今天的電話會議中，我們將做出前瞻性陳述，反映管理層對 Cohu 未來業務的當前預期。這些聲明是基於我們評估的當前訊息，而這些訊息本質上可能會發生快速甚至突然的變化。

We encourage you to review the forward-looking statements section of the slide presentation and earnings release as well as Cohu's filings with the SEC, including the most recently filed Form 10-K and Form 10-Q. Our comments speak only as of today, February 13, 2025, and Cohu assumes no obligation to update these statements for developments occurring after this call.

我們鼓勵您查看幻燈片簡報和收益報告中的前瞻性陳述部分以及 Cohu 向美國證券交易委員會提交的文件，包括最近提交的 10-K 表和 10-Q 表。我們的評論僅代表截至今天（2025 年 2 月 13 日）的觀點，Cohu 不承擔根據本次電話會議後發生的事態發展更新這些聲明的義務。

Finally, during this call, we will discuss certain non-GAAP financial measures. Please refer to our earnings release and slide presentation for reconciliations to the most comparable GAAP measures.

最後，在本次電話會議中，我們將討論某些非 GAAP 財務指標。請參閱我們的收益報告和幻燈片演示，以了解與最具可比性的 GAAP 指標的對帳。

Now, I'd like to turn the call over to Luis Muller, Cohu's President and CEO. Luis?

現在，我想將電話轉給 Cohu 總裁兼執行長 Luis Muller。路易斯？

Hello, and welcome to our quarterly earnings call. Full-year 2024 revenue was about $402 million as Cohu's main market segments are crossing the chasm of a downturn. On the other hand, the full-year non-GAAP gross margin of 45% demonstrates the value of selling differentiated products and optimizing our manufacturing cost structure. Fourth-quarter revenue was within guidance range, but gross margin was impacted by an inventory reserve charge of $2.1 million. Jeff will get into more details on these later.

您好，歡迎參加我們的季度財報電話會議。由於 Cohu 的主要細分市場正在跨越經濟衰退的鴻溝，2024 年全年收入約為 4.02 億美元。另一方面，全年非公認會計準則毛利率為45%，反映了銷售差異化產品和最佳化製造成本結構的價值。第四季營收在預期範圍內，但毛利率受到 210 萬美元的庫存準備金費用的影響。傑夫稍後會更詳細地介紹這些內容。

Revenue for the quarter was split 62% recurring in the balanced systems. Systems revenue increased sequentially in Computing, Industrial, and Consumer segments, although offset by declines in Automotive and Mobile where customers are working through ongoing inventory correction.

本季的營收在平衡系統中佔 62% 。計算、工業和消費領域的系統收入持續成長，儘管被汽車和行動領域的下滑所抵消，因為客戶正在進行庫存調整。

Estimated test cell utilization at the end of December increased 1 point quarter-over-quarter to 73%, driven by OSATs that improved 2 points to 76% and while IDMs closed the quarter at 70%. We see our traditional IDM customers at different stages in the cycle and OSATs benefiting from the strength of fabless customers aligned with data center and network infrastructure.

12 月底的預計測試單元利用率比上一季度增加了 1 個百分點，達到 73%，其中 OSAT 提高了 2 個百分點，達到 76%，而 IDM 在本季度末的利用率也達到了 70%。我們看到，我們的傳統IDM客戶處於週期的不同階段，而OSAT則受益於與資料中心和網路基礎設施相結合的無晶圓廠客戶的實力。

As mentioned last quarter, Cohu entered the memory and silicon carbide power semiconductor markets with orders for HBM inspection and die level burn-in. We shipped our first HBM inspection system and received a repeat order early in first quarter that we expect to ship in the middle of this year.

如同上個季度所提到的，Cohu 透過 HBM 偵測和晶片級老化訂單進入了記憶體和碳化矽功率半導體市場。我們交付了第一套 HBM 檢測系統，並在第一季初收到了一份重複訂單，預計將在今年年中交付。

Growth prospects in HBM look positive, with the potential to deliver $7 million of revenue this year as we support HBM3E and a new HBM4 product ramp later in the year. We're working hard to align new Cohu products to compute applications, mainly positioning the company to capitalize on the growth in the data center market and later opportunities with AI at the edge.

HBM 的成長前景看好，由於我們支持 HBM3E 和今年稍後推出的全新 HBM4 產品，今年有可能實現 700 萬美元的收入。我們正在努力將新的 Cohu 產品與運算應用程式結合，主要使公司能夠利用資料中心市場的成長以及之後邊緣 AI 帶來的機會。

Our interface product team had a design win for testing 800G switches used in next-generation data centers and cloud computing. These are high bandwidth devices that accelerate AI/ML workloads with stringent signal-performance requirements in test. We're excited to see our products gaining traction across various data center applications, spending memory, network infrastructure, and compute.

我們的介面產品團隊在測試用於下一代資料中心和雲端運算的 800G 交換器的設計方面獲得了勝利。這些是高頻寬設備，可在測試中加速具有嚴格訊號效能要求的 AI/ML 工作負載。我們很高興看到我們的產品在各種資料中心應用程式、記憶體、網路基礎設施和運算方面獲得廣泛關注。

Turning to our software platform, we are strong believers in the value AI will bring to semiconductor manufacturing with opportunities to optimize yield and productivity. Just last month, the CFO of TSMC made a comment during a public interview that 1% productivity improvement has the potential to drive $1 billion of value for their business.

談到我們的軟體平台，我們堅信人工智慧將為半導體製造帶來價值，並帶來優化產量和生產力的機會。就在上個月，台積電財務長在一次公開採訪中表示，1% 的生產力提升有可能為其業務帶來 10 億美元的價值。

Putting this a bit in context, the global semiconductor process control market is believed to be about $2.6 billion today. We estimate that the potential total available market for data analytics for process control, data visualization, connectivity, and predictive applications in the back-end semiconductor manufacturing segment to be about $600 million, which accounts for third-party and in-house developed solutions. We're pushing to establish Cohu as a main player in this area, focusing primarily on back-end manufacturing and our current customers spending on the software stack.

稍微看一下背景，目前全球半導體製程控制市場規模約 26 億美元。我們估計，後端半導體製造領域中製程控制、資料視覺化、連接性和預測應用的資料分析的潛在總可用市場約為 6 億美元，其中包括第三方和內部開發的解決方案。我們正在努力將 Cohu 打造為該領域的主要參與者，主要關注後端製造和我們現有客戶在軟體堆疊上的支出。

In the fourth quarter, we qualified Cohu's DI-core and received the first PO to optimize visual inspection yield for a US-headquartered semiconductor manufacturer with operations in Asia. Customers continue to subscribe to our software solutions, adding to our critical recurring revenue stream in an area that we expect can generate substantial growth over term.

在第四季度，我們認證了 Cohu 的 DI-core，並收到了第一份採購訂單，用於為一家總部位於美國並在亞洲開展業務的半導體製造商優化視覺檢測產量。客戶繼續訂購我們的軟體解決方案，增加了我們的關鍵經常性收入來源，我們預計該領域可在長期內實現大幅成長。

In line with this strategy, last quarter, we announced the definitive agreement and early this year confirmed closing the acquisition of Tignis, a provider of artificial intelligence, process control and analytics-based monitoring software. We believe there is an opportunity to grow Cohu's software revenue at an annual rate of 50% or more over the next three years as the industry seeks solutions to optimize yield and productivity using AI power process control and data analytics solutions.

根據這項策略，上個季度我們宣布了最終協議，並在今年年初確認完成對人工智慧、流程控制和基於分析的監控軟體供應商 Tignis 的收購。我們相信，隨著產業尋求使用人工智慧動力製程控制和數據分析解決方案來優化產量和生產力的解決方案，未來三年 Cohu 的軟體收入有機會以每年 50% 或更高的速度成長。

As our core Automotive, Industrial, and Mobile customers continue to navigate an inventory correction, we're committed to growing Cohu in 2025 with customer design wins and SAM expansion driven by new product investments targeting data center and Edge AI applications.

隨著我們的核心汽車、工業和行動客戶繼續進行庫存調整，我們致力於在 2025 年透過針對資料中心和邊緣 AI 應用的新產品投資推動客戶設計的勝利和 SAM 擴展來發展 Cohu。

Let me now turn it over to Jeff for further details on last quarter results and next quarter guidance. Jeff?

現在，讓我將話題轉交給傑夫，以了解有關上個季度的業績和下個季度的指引的更多詳細資訊。傑夫？

Thanks, Luis. Before I walk through the Q4 results and Q1 guidance, please note that my comments that follow all refer to non-GAAP figures. Information about the non-GAAP financial measures, including the GAAP to non-GAAP reconciliations and other disclosures are included in the accompanying earnings release and investor presentation, which are located on the Investor page of our website.

謝謝，路易斯。在我介紹第四季業績和第一季指引之前，請注意，我接下來的評論均涉及非 GAAP 數據。有關非公認會計準則財務指標的信息，包括公認會計準則與非公認會計準則的對帳和其他披露，均包含在隨附的收益報告和投資者介紹中，位於我們網站的投資者頁面上。

Now turning to the Q4 financial results. Revenue for the quarter was within guidance at $94.1 million. Full-year 2024 revenue was $401.8 million. Recurring revenue, which is largely consumable driven and more stable than systems revenue, represented 62% of total revenue in Q4 and 65% of full-year 2024 revenue.

現在來談談第四季財務業績。本季營收達 9,410 萬美元，符合預期。 2024 年全年收入為4.018億美元。經常性收入主要由消費品驅動，比系統收入更穩定，佔第四季總收入的 62%，佔 2024 年全年收入的 65%。

During the fourth quarter, one customer in the Automotive market accounted for more than 10% of sales. However, no customer accounted for more than 10% of sales for the Full year 2024. Q4 gross margin was 41.8%, about 220 basis points lower than guidance, due to a $2.1 million charge to our inventory reserve for old, slow moving, customer-specific inventory. Excluding the impact of the inventory reserve, gross margin was in line with guidance. Full-year 2024 gross margin was resilient and higher than model at 45%.

第四季度，汽車市場的一位客戶貢獻了超過10%的銷售額。然而，沒有一位客戶的銷售額佔 2024 年全年銷售額的 10% 以上。第四季毛利率為 41.8%，比預期低約 220 個基點，原因是我們對舊的、週轉緩慢的、特定客戶的庫存收取了 210 萬美元的庫存準備金。除去庫存儲備的影響，毛利率符合預期。2024 年全年毛利率保持強勁，高於模型預測的 45%。

Operating expenses for Q4 were lower than guidance at $45.3 million, driven by lower labor costs due to replacement and new hire delays as well as higher vacation utilization than forecasted. Fourth-quarter non-GAAP operating loss was approximately $6 million. Q4 interest income, net of interest expense and a small foreign currency gain, was $2.3 million.

第四季的營運費用低於預期的 4,530 萬美元，原因是替換和新員工招聘延遲導致勞動力成本降低，以及休假利用率高於預期。第四季非公認會計準則營業虧損約 600 萬美元。 Q4利息收入（扣除利息支出和少量外幣收益）為 230 萬美元。

Q4 pretax income consists of foreign profits combined with a loss in the US. The Q4 tax provision of $3.4 million reflects tax expense on foreign profits, but no tax benefit from the US loss due to our valuation allowance against deferred tax assets. Non-GAAP EPS for the fourth quarter was a $0.15 loss. The $2.1 million inventory charge accounts for approximately $0.04 of EPS.

第四季稅前收入包括海外利潤和美國國內損失。第四季的 340 萬美元稅收準備金反映了海外利潤的稅費，但由於我們對遞延所得稅資產的估值準備金，因此沒有來自美國損失的稅收優惠。第四季非公認會計準則每股收益虧損 0.15 美元。210 萬美元的庫存費用約佔每股收益的 0.04 美元。

Moving to the balance sheet. Overall, cash and investments decreased by $7 million during Q4 to $262 million due to $2 million used in operations, debt repayment of $2 million, and fourth-quarter CapEx of approximately $3 million. CapEx for full-year 2024 was approximately $11 million lower than prior years and primarily driven by facility improvements in The Philippines and Germany supporting operations for our interface and automation businesses.

轉到資產負債表。總體而言，第四季的現金和投資減少了 700 萬美元至 2.62 億美元，原因是營運支出 200 萬美元、償還債務 200 萬美元以及第四季資本支出約 300 萬美元。2024 年全年資本支出比前幾年低約 1,100 萬美元，主要由於菲律賓和德國設施的改善，支持我們的介面和自動化業務的運作。

Cohu had zero share repurchase activity in Q4. Through the end of Q3 in fiscal 2024, we had repurchased approximately 915,000 shares for $27 million, which exceeds our goal to offset share dilution from our equity compensation plan of approximately 500,000 shares per year.

Cohu 在第四季沒有進行任何股票回購活動。截至 2024 財年第三季末，我們已以 2,700 萬美元回購了約 915,000 股，這超過了我們透過股權補償計畫每年約 50 萬股來抵銷股份稀釋的目標。

Overall, Cohu's balance sheet remains strong, supporting investment opportunities to expand our served markets and technology portfolio in line with our growth strategy and returning capital to shareholders through our share repurchase program.

總體而言，Cohu 的資產負債表仍然強勁，支持投資機會以擴大我們的服務市場和技術組合，符合我們的成長策略，並透過我們的股票回購計畫向股東返還資本。

Now moving to our Q1 outlook. Recent customer requests to delay Q1 shipments to later in 2025 have impacted our initial view of first quarter revenue. As a result, we're guiding Q1 revenue to be approximately $97 million plus or minus $7 million First-quarter gross margin is forecasted to be approximately 44% benefiting from Cohu's differentiated products and our stable high-margin recurring business, which adds resilience to profitability and provides consistent cash flow through industry cycles.

現在轉到我們的第一季展望。最近客戶要求將第一季的出貨時間推遲到 2025 年晚些時候，這影響了我們對第一季營收的初步看法。因此，我們預計第一季的營收約為 9,700 萬美元，上下浮動 700 萬美元。

We expect gross margin to increase again when our revenue recovers with a broader semiconductor device market recovery and with better absorption of our factory's infrastructure costs. Q1 operating expenses are forecasted to be approximately $49 million, about $4 million higher than Q4. Nearly half of the quarter over quarter increase is due to the addition of Tignis, a provider of artificial intelligence process control and analytics-based monitoring software.

我們預計，隨著半導體設備市場更廣泛的復甦和工廠基礎設施成本的更好吸收，我們的收入將再次增加。預計第一季營運費用約為 4,900 萬美元，比第四季高出約 400 萬美元。季度環比增長的近一半是由於人工智慧過程控制和基於分析的監控軟體提供商 Tignis 的加入。

The balance of the increase is due to higher labor costs quarter over quarter, including the implementation of a delayed merit increase across the employee base and the typical reset of employer payroll taxes that are unique to Q1.

成長的其餘部分是由於勞動力成本環比上升，包括實施全員延遲加薪以及第一季特有的雇主工資稅的典型重置。

For the rest of 2025, operating expenses should be approximately $48 million per quarter when revenue is approximately $100 million. As revenue grows to about $130 million, operating expenses are projected to increase to approximately $50 million per quarter. We're projecting Q1 interest income, net of interest expense and foreign currency impacts to be approximately $1.3 million at current interest rates.

2025 年剩餘時間內，當收入約為 1 億美元時，每季的營運費用應約為 4,800 萬美元。隨著營收成長至約 1.3 億美元，預計每季營運費用將增加至約 5,000 萬美元。我們預計，以當前利率計算，第一季的利息收入（扣除利息支出和外匯影響）約為 130 萬美元。

The Q1 non-GAAP tax provision is expected to be approximately $3 million because of tax on foreign profits without benefit from the US loss Until the markets recover, we expect a similar tax provision profile as we navigate through this cycle. The basic share count for Q1 is expected to be approximately 46.6 million.

預計第一季非公認會計準則稅務準備金約為 300 萬美元，原因是沒有從美國損失中獲益的海外利潤稅，直到市場復甦，我們預計在這一周期中會出現類似的稅收準備金狀況。預計第一季基本股數約為4,660萬股。

And that concludes our prepared remarks. And now we'll open the call to questions.

我們的準備好的演講到此結束。現在我們開始提問。

(Operator Instructions) Craig Ellis, B. Riley Securities.

（操作員指示） Craig Ellis，B. Riley Securities。

Yes. Thanks for taking the question and appreciate all the detail on the new businesses that are coming into the model. I wanted to start my questioning there. So Jeff, you said that Tignis, and I apologize if I pronounced it wrong, but you said that would be about $2 million of OpEx in the quarter. The question is, is there any revenue associated with that OpEx? And if not, when would we expect that business to be earnings per share breakeven as we think about its ability to grow with that 50% CAGR you outlined?

是的。感謝您回答這個問題，我們也非常感謝您提供有關該模型中新業務的所有詳細資訊。我想從那裡開始我的提問。傑夫，你說的是 Tignis，如果我發音錯誤，我很抱歉，但你說這將是本季約 200 萬美元的營運支出。問題是，該營運支出是否有任何相關收入？如果不是，考慮到該業務能夠以您所概述的 50% 的複合年增長率增長，我們何時可以預期該業務的每股收益能夠收支平衡？

Yes. So, hey Craig, it's Tignis, TIGNIS. And last year's revenue was sub-1 million, likely to be the same this year. Are expecting healthy growth rates over the next few years, but at the moment, probably right around $1 million or sub-1 million for 2025. So it's going to take a few years for it to get to the breakeven point.

是的。所以，嘿 Craig，這是 Tignis，TIGNIS。去年的收入不到 100 萬美元，今年的收入可能也差不多。預計未來幾年將保持健康的成長率，但目前來看，到 2025 年，這一數字可能在 100 萬美元左右或以下。因此要花幾年時間才能達到損益平衡點。

Got it. And then, Luis, if I wanted to hone in on the revenue impact this year of some of these incremental drivers. I think in the deck we identified that the high-bandwidth memory opportunity could be around $7 million If we look at software all in, Tignis and DI-Core, how big could that be? And then the silicon carbide market expansion, the single-chip burn in capability that you've identified recently, how big could that be this year? How big are these new drivers as we think about '25 and '26?

知道了。然後，路易斯，如果我想深入研究其中一些增量驅動因素對今年收入的影響。我認為在簡報中我們確定了高頻寬記憶體機會可能價值約 700 萬美元，如果我們看一下所有軟體，Tignis 和 DI-Core，這個價值會有多大？然後是碳化矽市場的擴張，您最近發現的單晶片老化能力，今年的規模會有多大？當我們思考25年和26年時，這些新的驅動因素有多大？

So if I take '25, Craig, like I said, HBM about 7, the silicon carbide about 5, so tallying up to 12. We think, as Jeff mentioned here, software about 113. And then I think you got to top it off with the Diamondx win at an automotive customer that we talked about in the last two quarters. That is likely to be $10 million to $15 million.

因此，如果我取 25，Craig，就像我說的，HBM 約為 7，碳化矽約為 5，因此總計為 12。我們認為，正如 Jeff 在這裡提到的，軟體大約有 113 個。然後我認為你必須以我們在過去兩個季度中談到的 Diamondx 在汽車客戶中取得的勝利作為結束。這可能達到 1000 萬至 1500 萬美元。

So I think if you put it all together, we're looking at sort of $25 million, $30 million incremental this year from these new, either same expansion or design wins. And I would expect those to accelerate in '26, but I wouldn't have a number to give you at this time on that.

因此，我認為，如果把所有這些加在一起，我們今年將從這些新的、相同的擴建或設計中標中獲得 2500 萬美元到 3000 萬美元的增量。我預計這些成長將在 26 年加速，但目前我還無法給出一個具體數字。

Yes. And then if we look at those together, Luis, and thanks for the color on that. If we look at them all in, is that a mid-40s gross margin that we should be thinking about? Would it be higher than that? I think down the road in a couple of years, it would be higher with software growing, but how do we think about the gross margin on that incremental business this year?

是的。然後，如果我們一起看這些，路易斯，感謝你對此的詮釋。如果我們把它們全部考慮進去，我們是否應該考慮 45% 左右的毛利率？會比這更高嗎？我認為，幾年後，隨著軟體的成長，毛利率會更高，但我們如何看待今年增量業務的毛利率？

Yes. Hey, Craig, I would say, high-40s, but ultimately growing to 50 as software grows.

是的。嘿，Craig，我想說，40 多歲，但隨著軟體的發展，最終會成長到 50 歲。

Okay, nice. And then lastly, if I could guys, as we look at utilization levels across some of the end markets, A&I is the closest to that somewhat magical 80% threshold at 75%. The question is, is A&I on its way up towards 80% or is it actually drifting lower just given some of the comments we've heard from bigger US-based analog companies over the last month?

好的，很棒。最後，如果可以的話，當我們查看一些終端市場的利用率水準時，A&I 最接近那個神奇的 80% 門檻，為 75%。問題是，A&I 是否會上升至 80% 還是實際上正在下降，因為根據我們上個月聽到的一些來自美國大型模擬公司的評論？

Sorry, what do you -- Craig, clarification here. What do you mean by A&I?

抱歉，您想說什麼？A&I 是什麼意思？

Auto and Industrial.

汽車和工業。

Okay. Yes. Thank you. Yes, You're correct. Auto Industrial continues to be the one that's sitting at the highest plateau. Nevertheless, it continues to be the customer base, particularly in the analog space, that has the highest inventory correction yet to be digested. Some of these customers are talking about another two quarters of digestion, another one seemingly three quarters if you look at the numbers.

好的。是的。謝謝。是的，你說得對。汽車工業繼續處於最高水平。儘管如此，特別是模擬領域的客戶群仍有最高的庫存調整尚未消化。其中一些客戶正在談論另外兩個季度的消化量，如果你看數字的話，另外一個似乎要消化三個季度。

In the meantime, while Mobile is sitting at a lower level, there's some dynamic happening between Android and iOS that I think is going to drive some incremental business. I guess I'm not going to pick a side here to say it, but in one of those in particular that we expect to see some leverage on the business for us starting in the middle of this year.

同時，雖然行動市場處於較低水平，但 Android 和 iOS 之間正在發生一些動態變化，我認為這將推動一些增量業務。我想我不會在這裡偏袒任何一方，但是特別地，我們預計從今年年中開始我們的業務將受到一些影響。

David Duley, Steelhead Securities.

Steelhead Securities 的 David Duley。

Yes. Thanks for taking my questions. Could you just remind us you just referred to the Diamondx of $10 million to $15 million in '25. Could you just elaborate on the application again and how you won -- what was the key parameter for you winning that business?

是的。感謝您回答我的問題。您能否提醒我們，您剛才提到了 25 年 1,000 萬至 1,500 萬美元的 Diamondx。您能否再次詳細說明該申請以及您是如何獲勝的——您贏得這項業務的關鍵參數是什麼？

Sure, Dave. Well, starting from the end here, the key parameter to winning that business is ultimately cost of test. It's being able to do their portfolio of devices, which spans power semiconductor applications, microcontrollers, and there is also a PMIC group that's separate from power.

當然，戴夫。好吧，從這裡開始，贏得這項業務的關鍵參數最終是測試成本。它能夠完成他們的設備組合，涵蓋功率半導體應用、微控制器，並且還有一個獨立於電源的 PMIC 組。

In the moment, we're addressing two of the three groups, hoping to be able to extend it to the third group. So it's sort of a cost of tasks differentiation. And I guess, like I said, two of the three groups is what we're addressing today.

目前，我們正在解決其中兩個群體的問題，希望能夠擴展到第三個群體。所以這算是任務區分的成本。我想，就像我說的，我們今天要討論的是這三個群體中的兩個。

Okay. And then in aggregate, I think you've had a few years now of declining year-over-year revenue. When would you expect there to be some sort of turn, either driven by new products or recovery in the end markets? What's your best guess at this point for your recovery?

好的。總的來說，我認為你們幾年來的收入正在逐年下降。您預期何時會出現某種轉變，是由新產品推動還是由終端市場復甦所推動？目前，您對自己的康復情況有何猜測？

Dave, guessing the market is the toughest part of it all as you understand. And people seem to always indicate that it's six months away is the turning point. So we're not at a position of necessarily gas in the market nor sitting idle on it. So we've been working on is to expand our penetration in segments that have at the moment higher growth, which would be particularly things associated with data centers that we haven't had a lot of exposure in the past. HBM is one example.

戴夫，正如你所理解的，猜測市場是所有一切中最困難的部分。人們似乎總是表示六個月之後就是轉捩點。因此，我們在市場上不一定處於有動力的狀態，也不會處於無所事事的狀態。因此，我們一直致力於擴大我們在目前成長較快的領域的滲透率，特別是與資料中心相關的領域，因為我們過去並沒有太多涉足這些領域。HBM 就是一個例子。

We have other activities that hopefully we can talk through in the coming quarters this year. The software investment is perhaps more of a long-term play than necessarily a material 2025 investment. But we see many of the factory's driving automation and optimization, whether it's yield or productivity that could be benefited by predictability, which in essence becomes the use of AI models or machine learning models sometimes. They're different, but in both cases software. So our focus right now is pivoting to areas that have both near term opportunity for growth, but as well as long term opportunity for growth.

我們還有其他活動，希望能夠在今年接下來的幾個季度內進行討論。軟體投資可能更多的是一項長期投資，而不一定是 2025 年的實質投資。但我們看到工廠的許多驅動自動化和優化，無論是產量還是生產率都可以從可預測性中受益，而可預測性有時本質上會成為人工智慧模型或機器學習模型的使用。它們是不同的，但都是軟體。因此，我們現在的重點是轉向既有短期成長機會，又有長期成長機會的領域。

In the meantime, the market is going to do what the market is going to do. And the primary analog segment of the market, which is mostly automotive, industrial, continues to be depressed. There's still inventory digestion happening. We keep looking at our customers' reduction of inventory quarter over quarter and where are they relative to trend lines. So it's very likely that at the current pace, we'll see another two quarters before our customers in that segment turn the corner from a general market perspective.

同時，市場將會按照市場想要的方式運作。而市場的主要模擬領域（主要是汽車和工業）持續低迷。庫存仍在消化中。我們持續關注客戶庫存逐季度的減少情況以及相對於趨勢線的情況。因此，以目前的速度，從整個市場的角度來看，我們很可能還需要兩個季度的時間才能看到該領域的客戶出現轉機。

Okay. And then, as far as when you start to see recovery in the revenue line, you gave us some nice numbers, Jeff, about what we would expect for operating expenses going forward at higher revenue levels. What would you expect maybe at those same revenue levels the gross margins to be?

好的。然後，至於當您開始看到收入線復甦時，傑夫，您給了我們一些不錯的數字，關於我們對未來更高收入水平下的營運費用的預期。您預計在同樣的收入水平下毛利率會是多少？

So when we're hovering around $100 million gross margin will be somewhere in the 44% to 45% range. Then as we migrate up to $130 million, we're expecting to be about 46.5% on gross margin.

因此，當我們徘徊在 1 億美元左右時，毛利率將在 44% 到 45% 之間。然後，當我們轉向 1.3 億美元時，我們預計毛利率將達到約 46.5%。

Ross Cole, Needham.

羅斯·科爾，尼德姆。

Thank you for taking my question. I was wondering if you could verify the different segment revenues for 2024 and then provide your latest assumptions on the segment revenues for 2025 and maybe rank order them if possible? Thank you.

感謝您回答我的問題。我想知道您是否可以驗證 2024 年不同分部的收入，然後提供您對 2025 年分部收入的最新假設，並在可能的情況下對它們進行排序？謝謝。

Ross, are you talking about all of 2024 and projecting all of 2025?

羅斯，你談論的是整個 2024 年，並預測了整個 2025 年嗎？

That would be great, if possible, yes.

如果可能的話那就太好了，是的。

Yes, we don't have -- we've got the historical data on 2024, just we don't have that perspective yet on 2025. So let's see. We look at systems revenue by market, so I'm going to give you those percentages for 2024. And we were 9% was Automotive, 6% was Industrial, 11% Mobile, 4%Consumer, 3% Compute and 2% for IoT.

是的，我們沒有——我們有 2024 年的歷史數據，只是我們還沒有 2025 年的預測。讓我們看看。我們按市場查看系統收入，因此我將為您提供 2024 年的百分比。其中，9%為汽車，6%為工業，11%為移動，4%為消費，3%為計算，2%為物聯網。

Great. Thank you. And I was wondering if you could possibly rank order these in terms of your best guess for 2025?

偉大的。謝謝。我想知道您是否可以根據對 2025 年的最佳猜測對這些進行排序？

Yes. I think at the moment, as Luis said, Auto and Industrial has probably the most inventory to work through at the moment. But if we're looking at second half, I believe the indications or the projections at the moment would be that Automotive and Industrial begin a recovery followed by Mobile.

是的。我認為目前正如路易斯所說，汽車和工業領域可能是目前需要處理的庫存最多的地方。但如果我們展望下半年，我相信目前的跡像或預測是汽車和工業開始復甦，隨後是行動產業。

Great. Thank you. And if I can ask one more quick question. I remember, previously, you had shipped a couple of tools for HBM in [ASIC] wafer test. Could you confirm if you plan on recognizing the revenue for these in the first quarter or if that's more of a second quarter opportunity?

偉大的。謝謝。我可以再問一個簡單的問題。我記得，之前你們已經在[ASIC]晶圓測試中交付了一些用於HBM的工具。您能否確認您是否計劃在第一季確認這些收入，或者這是否更多的是第二季的機會？

The HBM is a Q1 revenue recognition. First tool. Yes, the first tool, one tool in Q1. High-level burn in is the other one you referred to, which is further perhaps second half of 2025.

HBM 是第一季的收入確認。第一個工具。是的，第一個工具，Q1 中的一個工具。您提到的另一個是高水準的磨合，這也許要到 2025 年下半年。

Robert Mertens, TD Cowen.

羅伯特·梅爾滕斯（Robert Mertens），TD Cowen。

Hi. This is Robert Mertens on for Chris Shankar. Thanks for taking my questions. I guess first, I believe you had mentioned earlier that some of the strong order flows in the September, sort of gave you confidence to look beyond the December guide and into March, expecting that quarter to be up sequentially maybe around 10% or so. There's some trying to parse out that commentary in the new low single-digit guide.

你好。這是羅伯特·梅爾滕斯 (Robert Mertens) 代替克里斯·香卡 (Chris Shankar) 上場。感謝您回答我的問題。首先，我相信您之前提到過，9 月份的一些強勁訂單流讓您有信心超越 12 月份的指引，進入 3 月份，預計該季度的環比增長可能在 10% 左右。有些人試圖在新的低個位數指南中解析該評論。

Is this new outlook primarily just because of some of those customer order push outs that you mentioned earlier on your prepared remarks? And if so, would that be something you would expect to come back in the June? And then I have one follow-up.

這種新前景是否主要只是因為您之前在準備好的發言中提到的一些客戶訂單推遲？如果是這樣，您是否希望它在六月再次出現？然後我還有一個後續問題。

Hey, Robert. The answer to your first part is yes. It was due to a recent push out of tools out of Q1. So we have the orders. It's the actual shipment date that has been delayed. Now it's not necessarily Q2, it's throughout 2025. It's about $7 million. So again, it's spread through the balance of the year.

嘿，羅伯特。第一部分的答案是肯定的。這是由於最近推出了 Q1 工具。所以，我們收到訂單了。實際的裝運日期已延遲。現在不一定是第二季度，而是整個 2025 年。大約是700萬美元。因此，它再次分佈在全年的餘額中。

Okay. Thank you. That's helpful. And then just another quick follow-on question. In terms of the new neon and die-level burn and test opportunity with high bandwidth memory, congrats on securing another follow-on order.

好的。謝謝。這很有幫助。然後還有另一個快速的後續問題。就具有高頻寬記憶體的新型霓虹燈和晶片級燒錄和測試機會而言，恭喜您獲得另一個後續訂單。

With the growth in this emerging business, will you be primarily driven just by scaling that success with this initial customer? Or are you currently working on getting other tools, potentially full acceptances with other major memory suppliers? Or do they tend to go internally or have sort of incumbent suppliers themselves that would make it harder to gain business there?

隨著這項新興業務的成長，您是否主要致力於擴大與初始客戶的成功？或者您目前正在努力獲取其他工具，可能獲得其他主要記憶體供應商的完全認可？或者他們傾向於內部發展，或自己擁有某種現有供應商，而這會使他們更難在那裡開展業務？

Yes. Robert, it's kind of both. The numbers that I quoted to the first question in terms of what you expect for 2025, we're essentially scaling with the first customer orders that we got for these new tools. But we absolutely are working on advocating for these tools and promoting them, selling them to other customers that could benefit from what these tools can do. But none of that is accounted for in the numbers that I referenced on the first question today.

是的。羅伯特，兩者都有。關於您對 2025 年的預期，我在第一個問題中引用的數字基本上是根據我們收到的這些新工具的首批客戶訂單進行擴展的。但我們絕對致力於倡導和推廣這些工具，並將它們出售給可以從這些工具的功能中受益的其他客戶。但是，我今天在第一個問題中引用的數字並沒有考慮到這些因素。

Brian Chin, Stifel.

布萊恩·欽（Brian Chin），Stifel。

Good afternoon. This is Denis Pyatchanin on for Brian. Thanks for letting us ask a few questions. In light of the ongoing inventory control in the industry and fab utilization cuts that we've seen recently, how stable do you believe that the $60 million run rate is for your services and spares recurring revenue?

午安.丹尼斯·皮亞查寧 (Denis Pyatchanin) 代表布萊恩 (Brian) 發言。感謝您讓我們提出幾個問題。鑑於我們最近看到的行業持續庫存控制和晶圓廠利用率削減，您認為 6,000 萬美元的運行率對於您的服務和備件經常性收入有多穩定？

It is stable. It's proven to be stable over the -- historically. Now it's not immune to the downturn and we can see that in the numbers, but it probably has about a third of the volatility of systems. So the utilization of equipment in customers facilities has remained pretty steady. So we would expect our recurring revenue to also remain fairly steady.

它很穩定。從歷史經驗來看，它已被證明是穩定的。現在它並不能免受經濟衰退的影響，我們可以從數字中看到這一點，但它可能有大約三分之一的系統波動性。因此，客戶設施中的設備利用率保持相當穩定。因此，我們預計我們的經常性收入也將保持相當穩定。

Great. And I think you were previously somewhat more positive on Mobile RF test. Has this changed? I think you'd mentioned a little bit earlier on this call that you think Mobile will recover after Industrial, Automotive. Did I understand that correctly?

偉大的。我認為您之前對行動射頻測試持更積極的態度。這有改變嗎？我記得您在這次電話會議中早些時候提到過，您認為行動產業將在工業和汽車產業之後復甦。我的理解正確嗎？

The general market could be after. There is some dynamics, as I mentioned earlier, between sort of Android -- particularly in the Android market space on certain customer share gain in transitions of devices that could be beneficial for us on the second half of the year or sort of starting the middle of the year, so to speak. But overall, the Mobile market is still projected to be sort of a low-single digit growth this year. I think more of the dynamics in between customers could be more interesting.

一般市場可能會緊跟其後。正如我之前提到的，Android 之間存在一些動態變化，特別是在 Android 市場領域，某些客戶份額在裝置轉換過程中有所增加，這可能對我們在下半年或從年中開始有利。但總體而言，預計今年行動市場仍將實現低個位數成長。我認為顧客之間的動態可能會更有趣。

Great. And then as my last question, it looks like Industrial saw a little bit of strength that the systems revenue might have finished at a high for 2024 in the fourth quarter. Can we expect Industrial to stay at this level or what kind of you've bounced around a little bit around this $8 million to $9 million mark?

偉大的。然後，作為我的最後一個問題，看起來工業看到了一些優勢，系統收入可能在第四季達到 2024 年的高點。我們是否可以預期工業保持在這個水平，或者在 800 萬美元到 900 萬美元左右的水平上有所波動？

So Industrial has the potential to actually come up ahead of Automotive as we see it today. But we'll see how that plays out in the next few quarters.

所以，正如我們今天所看到的，工業實際上有潛力超越汽車。但我們將在接下來的幾季看看情況如何。

Craig Ellis, B. Riley.

克雷格·艾利斯、B.萊利。

Yes. Thanks for taking the follow-up question. Guys, I wanted to go back to the software business and just understand how you plan to execute that in a little bit more detail. Can you focus on the selling motion that you plan to implement in that business? Is DI core-and Tignis, is that going to sell out as a complement to new systems? Does it sell into the installed base as an enhancement to existing systems? Is it both? Just help us understand a little bit more how you plan to go to market and, therefore, how we can expect you're going to start to accrue sales and grow that high margin business? Thank you.

是的。感謝您回答後續問題。夥計們，我想回到軟體業務上，只是想更詳細地了解你們計劃如何執行這一點。您能重點談談您計劃在該業務中實施的銷售動議嗎？DI 是核心嗎？它是否作為現有系統的增強功能出售給已安裝的用戶群？兩者都有嗎？請幫助我們進一步了解您計劃如何進入市場，以及我們如何預期您將開始累積銷售額並發展高利潤業務？謝謝。

Yes, good question, Craig. The DI-Core that we do today, it really has two branches, okay. It has a vision inspection branch on the software that is using a newer network for vision technology and that branch will stay pretty much will stay as is. Don't think of Tignis getting much involved on that branch at the moment or at least not the initial plans, okay. There's a second branch in DI-Core that is using machine learning for fault detection and predictability for equipment maintenance.

是的，克雷格，你問得好。我們今天做的 DI-Core 其實有兩個分支，好的。該軟體有一個視覺檢查分支，該分支使用較新的視覺技術網絡，並且該分支將保持原樣。目前不要想著 Tignis 會過度參與該分支，或至少不要參與最初的計劃，好嗎。DI-Core 中的第二個分支使用機器學習進行故障偵測和設備維護的可預測性。

So the intention there is to leverage on Tignis' artificial intelligence software to give continuity to the DI-Core to products outside of the Cohu umbrella. So we would like to expand our DI-Core predictive maintenance capability to serve more than just Cohu products in the broader semiconductor back-end space. So that is an area that Tignis should be able to augment what we're currently doing with DI-Core and go much broader.

因此，其目的是利用 Tignis 的人工智慧軟體為 Cohu 品牌以外的產品提供 DI-Core 的連續性。因此，我們希望擴展我們的 DI-Core 預測性維護能力，以便在更廣泛的半導體後端領域不僅為 Cohu 產品提供服務。因此，Tignis 應該能夠增強我們目前使用 DI-Core 所做的事情並擴大其應用範圍。

Separately, Tignis itself, it has a solution that is being used for front end manufacturing that has nothing to do to Cohu current markets. We don't intend to shut that down. In fact, we intend to see Tignis continue to evolve there and sort of back up what they're pursuing at the moment and provide the necessary infrastructure and resources that they need to be successful in more in the general process control market.

另外，Tignis 本身有一個用於前端製造的解決方案，與 Cohu 目前的市場無關。我們無意關閉它。事實上，我們希望看到 Tignis 繼續在那裡發展，支持他們目前正在追求的目標，並提供他們在通用製程控制市場取得更多成功所需的必要基礎設施和資源。

So to summarize, Tignis' own growth factor is going to stay and we intend to back it up. And at the same time, we plan on leveraging Tignis technology on our DI-Core PDM tools for the back end so we can go broader and beyond Cohu owned equipment. I hope that was clear.

總而言之，Tignis 自身的成長因素將會保留，我們打算支持它。同時，我們計劃在我們的 DI-Core PDM 工具上利用 Tignis 技術作為後端，以便我們可以更廣泛地超越 Cohu 所擁有的設備。我希望這已經清楚了。

That concludes today's question-and-answer session. I'd like to turn the call back to Jeff Jones for closing remarks.

今天的問答環節到此結束。我想請傑夫瓊斯作最後發言。

Well, thank you for joining today's call. We really appreciate your participation and we look forward to speaking with you soon. Have a good day.

好吧，感謝您參加今天的電話會議。我們非常感謝您的參與，並期待很快與您交談。祝你有美好的一天。

This concludes today's conference call. Thank you for participating. You may now disconnect.

今天的電話會議到此結束。感謝您的參與。您現在可以斷開連線。