Banco Santander Brasil SA (BSBR) 2024 Q4 法說會逐字稿

Good morning, everyone, and thank you for joining us for our 2024 closing results video conference. We are live from our headquarters in Sao Paulo, and we will be dividing this event into three parts. First, our CEO, Mario Leao, will talk about the main highlights of the year and the directions for our growth in the coming quarters. Next, our CFO, Gustavo Alejo, will present a detailed analysis of our performance. And finally, we will have our Q&A session.

大家早安，感謝大家參加我們的 2024 年結業結果視訊會議。我們的現場直播將在聖保羅總部進行，我們將把這項活動分成三個部分。首先，我們的執行長 Mario Leao 將談論今年的主要亮點以及未來幾季的成長方向。接下來，我們的財務長Gustavo Alejo將對我們的業績進行詳細分析。最後，我們將進行問答環節。

I will now give you some instructions. (Operator Instructions) The presentation we are about to give is now available to download from our IR website. And now I'll hand over to Mario to start the presentation. Good morning, Mario.

我現在給你一些指示。（操作員指示）我們即將提供的簡報現在可以從我們的 IR 網站下載。現在我將把時間交給馬裡奧開始演講。早安，馬裡奧。

Good morning, Camila. Thank you. Good morning, everyone. It's a pleasure for me to be here once again to talk about the closing of 2024 and the fourth quarter results we hear live from our headquarters is 10:01. I would like to start by highlighting, as we always do, I mean, the overview of the quarter and also consolidated figures for the year-end.

早安，卡米拉。謝謝。大家早安。我很高興再次來到這裡談論 2024 年的收官以及我們從總部現場聽到的第四季度業績是 10:01。首先，我想像往常一樣強調本季的概況以及年末的綜合數據。

Starting with the numbers. As you already noticed, we delivered BRL3.87 billion or BRL3.9 billion in net income. This is another step towards the right direction. It's a number that grows quarter-on-quarter. In the interannual comparison, this number grows even more. And so more than the result itself, which is positive, we also grow in the way we generate the results. We will have the opportunity to share with you the quality behind the numbers, and we are very pleased to deliver that profitability. This is a clear note that how we are growing. We are growing 17.6%. This is a good evolution quarter-on-quarter. and the evolution that will come of many percentage points.

從數字開始。正如您已經注意到的，我們實現了 38.7 億雷亞爾或 39 億雷亞爾的淨收入。這是朝著正確方向邁出的又一步。這個數字逐季度都在成長。如果跨年度比較，這個數字還會成長更多。因此，除了正面的結果本身之外，我們在產生結果的方式上也得到了成長。我們將有機會與您分享數字背後的品質，我們很高興能夠實現這項獲利能力。這清楚地表明了我們正在成長。我們的成長率為17.6%。與上一季相比，這是一個很好的變化，而且變化幅度將達到很多百分點。

And how do we do that? Well, here, we highlight just a few ways. We have a very strong growth in our NII over 100% in terms of interannual, even more 16%. We will give you more details further on, and this represents gains in terms of assets and liabilities or funding. This has to do with our deposit accounts, but this is a disseminated growth with great pricing discipline and great discipline to grow our balance sheet in a very correct and technical way, seeking for profitability quarter-on-quarter.

我們該怎麼做呢？好吧，在這裡，我們只重點介紹幾種方法。我們的NII成長率非常強勁，年增率超過100％，甚至超過16％。我們將在後面為您提供更多詳細信息，這代表資產和負債或資金方面的收益。這與我們的存款帳戶有關，但這是一種分散的增長，具有良好的定價紀律和紀律，以非常正確和技術的方式增加我們的資產負債表，尋求逐季盈利。

Fees, great strategic focus, and we've been talking about that consistently as we posted consistent growth in almost all lines quarter-on-quarter and year-on-year. We have good discipline on the cost of risk. Our cost of risk is coming down, and we will be able to give you more details about that for every portfolio, and we have a good discipline in terms of capital allocation with a growth agenda, but not linear, but it's very much focused on the segments where we want to grow more.

費用，偉大的戰略重點，我們一直在談論這一點，因為我們幾乎所有業務線都實現了季度環比和年度同比的持續增長。我們對風險成本有良好的紀律。我們的風險成本正在下降，我們將能夠為您提供有關每個投資組合的更多詳細信息，並且我們在資本配置方面有良好的紀律，具有增長議程，但不是線性的，而是非常專注於我們想要更多增長的領域。

I mean, expenses are under control. It's going towards efficiency and efficiency ratio increased and expenses under control and growing lower than the inflation with collective bargaining, IRR, and then we want to share that with our employees.

我的意思是，開支得到了控制。透過集體談判和內部收益率 (IRR)，我們將提高效率和效率比率，控制開支，使其成長低於通貨膨脹率，然後我們希望與我們的員工分享這些。

In terms of messages, we have a few takeaways. We continue to work strongly to build a very sound business diversified and also resilient. We continue to transform our service model and our offering geared towards the main segments of the bank, and we will elaborate further on that. And we have a very good discipline in terms of executing our strategy. Last year, we delivered and consolidated our strategy. And so in summary, we will highlight a few points.

就資訊而言，我們有一些要點。我們將繼續努力打造一個多元化、穩健且富有彈性的企業。我們將繼續轉變我們的服務模式和麵向銀行主要部門的產品服務，並對此進行進一步闡述。我們在執行策略方面有非常好的紀律。去年，我們實施並鞏固了我們的策略。總而言之，我們將強調幾點。

Here, I have four main messages. But in summary, 2024 is when we consolidated our transformation. Well, certainly, we have to continue on this transformation path. We will do a lot more in 2025 and '26. But in '24, that's when we consolidated the design we had forecasted for the bank, and the results came along. I mean none of this here is new, but this is just an idea of how we concluded the year.

在此，我主要有四點想說。但總而言之，2024年是我們鞏固轉型的一年。嗯，當然，我們必須繼續走這條轉型之路。我們將在 2025 年和 2026 年做更多的事情。但在 1924 年，我們鞏固了對銀行的預測設計，並得到了結果。我的意思是，這裡所說的一切都不是新鮮事，這只是我們如何結束這一年的一個想法。

First of all, we turned the offerings in our institutional positioning. Now we are signing in a different way. We just launched that with you when we had our first quarter release. So now we are starting a new campaign, a new brand positioning, which is quite robust. With that, we also launched a new offering, which is our free offering, and this has evolved consistently and quite well.

首先，我們在機構定位上進行了產品轉型。現在我們以不同的方式簽名。我們在第一季發布新版本時就與您一起推出了此功能。所以現在我們正在開始一項新的活動，一個新的品牌定位，這是相當強勁的。同時，我們也推出了一項新產品，即我們的免費產品，並且該產品一直在持續發展，並且相當良好。

A few months later, we relaunched our Select, which is high income, and we are also monitoring our brand positioning, and we do the same with small and midsized companies. We evolved in our service model a lot in the stores with SMEs. We are now serving clients by micro regions. We removed the experts for SMEs from the stores, and we cater service through the platform. So our service has evolved in a very robust way. So we hope that 2025 is the year of further consolidation.

幾個月後，我們重新推出了高收入群體的 Select，我們也在監控我們的品牌定位，對中小型公司我們也採取了同樣的措施。我們在與中小企業合作的商店中對服務模式進行了很大的改進。我們現在按微區域為客戶提供服務。我們把中小企業的專家從門市撤出來，透過平台來提供服務。因此我們的服務得到了非常強勁的發展。因此我們希望 2025 年是進一步鞏固的一年。

We also made advances in our investment channel. This is a strategy which I've been repeating for a few years. We are building a large investment franchise in selling third-party services of loans and also liabilities from the bank. We have a strategic convergency of a full banking offer from Santander, and Toro, our digital brokerage firm, is one of the most successful ones in the market with the best NPS score, and we will have the convergence of this offering, and we will continue to talk about that.

我們的投資管道也取得了進展。這是我幾年來一直在重複的策略。我們正在建立一個大型投資特許經營權，銷售銀行貸款和負債的第三方服務。我們與桑坦德銀行達成了全面銀行服務的策略性融合，而我們的數位經紀公司 Toro 是市場上最成功的公司之一，擁有最佳的 NPS 評分，我們將實現這項服務的融合，並將繼續討論這一點。

And technology is another highlight. Chat is the major channel. It grew more than 200%, more than 2.2 times in the last two years. The product offering is very lean. And with that, we are improving the way we deliver services to our clients.

技術是另一個亮點。聊天是主要管道。成長超過200%，兩年內成長了2.2倍多。所提供的產品非常精簡。藉此，我們正在改進為客戶提供服務的方式。

Now speaking about some strategic businesses, we selected four strategic businesses. The first highlight of the year in terms of individual business is our consumer finance. The market as a whole grew. And I think we grew more than the market itself and certainly much better than the market itself. Our consumer finance for auto, for vehicles is one of the most robust ones in the country.

現在談到一些策略業務，我們選擇了四個策略業務。個人業務今年第一個亮點是消費金融。整個市場都在成長。我認為我們的成長速度超過了市場本身，而且肯定比市場本身好得多。我們的汽車消費金融是全國最強勁的金融之一。

Our market share ranges between 20% and 21%, and this portfolio grew 20% in one year alone. But more importantly, we grew with quality. We are working with ratings of 8, 9, 10, and these are the highest ratings we've ever had. We acquired a lot of clients, and we focus on price discipline. We will soon talk about the funding rate and how that increases throughout the year.

我們的市佔率在 20% 到 21% 之間，而且僅一年時間，該投資組合就成長了 20%。但更重要的是，我們的品質不斷提高。我們的評分為 8、9、10，這是我們有史以來獲得的最高評分。我們獲得了很多客戶，並且我們注重價格紀律。我們很快就會討論融資利率以及其全年如何成長。

So our individuals and consumer finance is prefixed. And so with a high cost of funding, we were able to have a very good price discipline. And at the same time, we were very selective in terms of our clients. And to conclude, our consumer finance, which is the largest one in Brazil, is now 100% digital. So we deliver to dealers and end users a very seamless experience.

所以我們的個人和消費金融是有前綴的。因此，儘管融資成本很高，我們仍然能夠保持非常好的價格紀律。同時，我們對客戶也非常挑剔。總而言之，我們的消費金融是巴西最大的消費金融，現在已經實現了 100% 數位化。因此，我們為經銷商和最終用戶提供了非常無縫的體驗。

The second highlight at the top, our SME business. I've been saying for a few years that our main mission remains even though the macro scenario is a bit more difficult, but it doesn't mean that our growth will be linear, but we will continue to grow, and we have a lot of appetite. We want to double the size of our SME business, SME portfolio. We are growing almost two digits, 9% year-on-year, but we are also growing in terms of our positioning, coverage ratio, and we will certainly capture a lot more synergies.

第二個亮點是我們的中小企業業務。幾年來我一直在說，儘管宏觀情況有些困難，但我們的主要使命依然存在，但這並不意味著我們的成長將是線性的，而是我們會繼續成長，而且我們有很大的發展空間。我們希望將中小企業業務和中小企業投資組合的規模擴大一倍。我們的成長率接近兩位數，年增 9%，但我們的定位、覆蓋率也在成長，我們肯定會獲得更多的綜效。

Another highlight is our cards business. I mean transactionality is well represented by our cards business. I mean, we are constantly in relation with our customers. What measures a transactional relation for individuals and corporate is part of our main focus, and we evolved a lot in our credit card business. 88% of our base are made out of account holders. We are working with the holistic client and not just by area. We grew the platform 15% year-on-year and the average spending of clients that we grew that by two digits, which is a very sound growth.

另一個亮點是我們的卡片業務。我的意思是我們的卡業務很好地體現了交易性。我的意思是，我們始終與客戶保持聯繫。衡量個人和企業之間的交易關係是我們關注的重點之一，我們的信用卡業務取得了很大的發展。我們 88% 的客戶群都是帳戶持有人。我們與整體客戶合作，而不僅限於特定領域。我們的平台年增了 15%，客戶平均消費額成長了兩位數，這是一個非常穩健的成長。

We are selling credit cards at a very good pace. We are more interested in extracting more value from the base that we already have, extracting opportunities from the base, which is better than the marginal opportunities. We are doing both, but we are trying to extract even more value than what we currently have.

我們的信用卡銷售速度非常快。我們更感興趣的是從我們已經擁有的基礎中提取更多的價值，從基礎中提取機會，這比邊際機會更好。我們兩者都在做，但我們正試圖提取比目前更多的價值。

Now I'm talking about funding. Funding is another highlight. Looking at the consolidated year, we have the best year of our history, BRL23 billion in funding. Our AAA, our internal channel, we have almost 2,000 advisers. Their net inflow per adviser was BRL16 million, which compares quite well in terms of other players in the market. And our NPS stood at 82 points, quite high.

現在我談論的是資金問題。資金是另一個亮點。從合併年度來看，我們迎來了史上最好的一年，融資額達 230 億巴西雷亞爾。我們的 AAA，我們的內部管道，我們有近 2,000 名顧問。他們的每位顧問的淨流入為 1,600 萬巴西雷亞爾，與市場上的其他參與者相比表現相當不錯。我們的NPS達到82分，相當高。

Now speaking about client with primacy or principality. Well, I will give a spoiler to you now because we are just a few months from launching our major project called OneApp. Our OneApp, it's been in construction for almost two years. It's not a new version. In fact, it's a new app. And this new app will consolidate all of our other apps and all of the service experiences in one single place. So our current app works very well, but this will be a total new experience.

現在談論具有首要地位或公國地位的客戶。好吧，我現在就給你們劇透一下，因為我們距離推出名為 OneApp 的重大專案只有幾個月的時間了。我們的OneApp，已經建置了將近兩年。這不是一個新版本。事實上，這是一個新的應用程式。這個新應用程式將把我們所有其他應用程式和所有服務體驗整合到一個地方。因此，我們目前的應用程式運行得很好，但這將是一種全新的體驗。

I'll tell you a bit more when we have our next earnings release for the first quarter. We will focus on a small product, but this is a topic for 2025, and it will cover the entire year of 2025. But throughout the third quarter, we will have a more solid evolution.

當我們發布第一季財報時，我會告訴你更多。我們將專注於一個小產品，但這是2025年的主題，它將涵蓋整個2025年。但在整個第三季度，我們將實現更穩健的演變。

I'll tell you more about it. But in summary, this represents a big leap in our journey. We already made substantial improvements. We improved the digital experience for both corporate and individuals, but we're going to go further. We will launch a major app, and this is being built together with the Santander Group. We can give you more details during the Q&A.

我會告訴你更多關於它的事情。但總而言之，這代表著我們旅程中的一大躍進。我們已經取得了實質的進步。我們改善了企業和個人的數位體驗，但我們也將繼續更進一步。我們將推出一款重要應用程序，該應用程式是與桑坦德集團共同開發的。我們可以在問答期間向您提供更多詳細資訊。

Speaking about customer experience, individuals and corporate hit record numbers at the end of last year, which is quite positive. Certainly, we want more. I don't think 63 should be a ceiling for corporate or 49 for individuals. But these are impressive numbers and we intend to grow even more throughout the coming years. I mean, individuals has great penetration. And for the second year in a row, we were number 1 in this website that measures stability and complaints. So we are very pleased to have the best stability among all the players in the financial market in Brazil.

談到客戶體驗，個人和企業在去年年底創下了歷史新高，這是非常積極的。當然，我們想要更多。我認為 63 不應該成為企業的上限，49 也不應該成為個人的上限。但這些數字令人印象深刻，我們打算在未來幾年實現更大的成長。我的意思是，個人的滲透力很強。並且連續第二年，我們在衡量穩定性和投訴的網站中排名第一。因此，我們很高興看到巴西金融市場在所有參與者中擁有最佳的穩定性。

In terms of clients, we reached about 70 million in February. We already superseded that market. But even better than the gross number, I always like to look at how many active customers we have. And last year was the year where we grew the most our number of active customers. We grew 2.2 million active customers in one single year, which results in 8% growth. And even more than funding, we were able to bring the primacy of these clients. We have principality of these clients. which is very good.

在客戶方面，2月份我們的客戶數量達到了約7000萬。我們已經取代了那個市場。但比總數更好的是，我總是喜歡看看我們有多少活躍客戶。去年是我們活躍客戶數量成長最快的一年。我們在一年內就增加了 220 萬活躍客戶，並實現了 8% 的成長率。而且，除了資金之外，我們還能夠發揮這些客戶的首要地位。我們擁有這些客戶的公國。這非常好。

But how are we doing that? We are doing a lot of things. Here, we just talked about hyperpersonalization, and I've been insisting on that topic for quite some time. I'm not going to go through every item of this slide, but we are moving forward with a new platform, totally redesigned for CRM.

但是我們該如何做呢？我們正在做很多事情。這裡，我們剛剛談到了超個性化，而且我已經堅持這個話題很久了。我不會詳細介紹這張投影片中的每一項，但我們正在推動一個完全針對 CRM 重新設計的新平台。

In fact, our CRM was everything for everyone. We would say, I mean, we cover the big massive people and the capacity to hyper-personalize was not very robust, but we started personalizing it or hyper-personalizing it back in 2022.

事實上，我們的 CRM 適合所有人。我們會說，我的意思是，我們涵蓋了龐大的人群，超個性化的能力並不是很強大，但我們早在 2022 年就開始對其進行個性化或超個性化。

So now we have pieces, photos, offerings, prices and terms totally hyper-personalized together with open finance, and we embraced that very strongly. We were one of the banks that grew the most. We are the financial platform with more consent in the corporate segment. Therefore, open finance evolved a lot. And this, in turn, results in a huge capacity of making our clients to feel unique.

因此，現在我們擁有完全超個性化的作品、照片、產品、價格和條款以及開放式金融，我們對此非常歡迎。我們是成長最快的銀行之一。我們是企業領域中獲得更多認同的金融平台。因此，開放金融得到了很大的發展。而這反過來又大大提升了我們的客戶感受獨特性的能力。

To conclude, well, Gustavo will give you the numbers. So thank you for now. So Gustavo, the floor is yours.

總而言之，古斯塔沃會提供你數字。所以現在謝謝你。那麼 Gustavo，現在輪到你發言了。

Thank you, Mario. Good morning, everyone. I'm going to start the presentation by talking about our loan book. The evolution in the full year as well as in the quarter is the result of the disciplined search for greater profitability, as we have declared to the market for quite a few quarters now.

謝謝你，馬裡奧。大家早安。我將從談論我們的貸款帳簿開始這次演講。全年以及本季的業績變化是我們嚴謹追求更高獲利能力的結果，正如我們過去幾季向市場所宣稱的那樣。

In the individual segment, we grew by 1.5% in the quarter with emphasis on products leading to greater loyalty and transactionality, such as cards. Cards grew by 10% in Q4 and 16% in the full year. In cards, it is important to say that we had a qualitative growth. We made better use of our base, focusing on middle and high-income clients.

在個人領域，我們本季成長了 1.5%，重點在於能夠提高忠誠度和交易性的產品，例如卡片。第四季信用卡成長了 10%，全年成長了 16%。從卡片上看，重要的是我們實現了質的成長。我們更好地利用了我們的客戶基礎，並專注於中高收入客戶。

The low-income portfolio, on the other hand, has lost share with a drop of 17 percentage points in the last three years. That's very important in terms of quality of the portfolio. And in addition to the quality of the portfolio, we saw greater transactionality as we're going to see momentarily.

另一方面，低收入投資組合的份額在過去三年中下降了 17 個百分點。就投資組合的品質而言，這一點非常重要。除了投資組合的品質之外，我們還看到了更高的交易性，我們很快就會看到。

Consumer finance, as mentioned, maintained the good dynamics seen in the previous quarters, posting robust growth of 5.1% in Q4. As we said before, we're very satisfied with our credit quality. To give you some color regarding that, quality of credit, Mario mentioned, [80%] of the total portfolio of consumer finance is classified with the best ratings. Ratings 8, 9, 10 account for 80% of the portfolio, representing an increase of 15 percentage points compared to December 2021.

如前所述，消費金融保持了前幾季的良好勢頭，第四季度實現了 5.1% 的強勁成長。正如我們之前所說，我們對我們的信用品質非常滿意。為了讓您了解信用質量，馬裡奧提到，消費金融總投資組合中的 [80%] 被歸類為最佳評級。評級 8、9、10 佔投資組合的 80%，與 2021 年 12 月相比增加了 15 個百分點。

In small and medium-sized enterprises, we see an important evolution, growing 6% in the quarter, especially in this quarter in government lines. And here, we see an important and balanced combination in the segment of credit income, fees and funding. It is super balanced and super important in terms of the portfolio. We know how to work in this segment and are prepared to move forward with quality and at the right pace. We'll look at the macroeconomic environment and our performance.

在中小企業方面，我們看到了重要的變化，本季成長了 6%，尤其是政府部門。在這裡，我們看到信貸收入、費用和融資領域的一個重要且平衡的組合。就投資組合而言，它非常平衡且非常重要。我們知道如何在這個領域開展工作，並準備以高品質和正確的速度向前邁進。我們將關注宏觀經濟環境和我們的表現。

On the right-hand side of the slide, we see our funding. The disciplined management of funding prices has helped to improve average costs in relation to our funding stock, which goes hand-in-hand with the objective of changing the composition between wholesale and retail in our liabilities. We see that individuals are growing 2 percentage points in the last 12 months. So the evolution of the strategy is there.

在幻燈片的右側，我們看到了我們的資金。融資價格的嚴格管理有助於改善我們融資存量的平均成本，這與改變我們負債中批發和零售之間的組成的目標相一致。我們發現，過去 12 個月個人數量增加了 2 個百分點。因此，策略的演變就在那裡。

In addition, we optimized our funding instruments that improves costs. We issued credit notes about 20% more in terms of volume growth in the quarter with good market prices and an important demand for these securities by the market, which is very important.

此外，我們也優化了融資工具，以降低成本。本季我們發行的信用票據數量增加了約 20%，市場價格良好，市場對這些證券的需求很大，這非常重要。

On the next slide, we present the performance of our revenues, which grew by 14% over the year. Net interest income, NII, continued to expand in the quarterly and annual comparison. In the last quarter, client NII performed well, both on the asset side with the prioritization of more profitable lines and segments, we've been talking about this, and on the liability side with an increase in the funding results due to the rise in interest rates.

在下一張投影片中，我們展示了我們的收入表現，全年收入成長了 14%。淨利息收入NII在季度和年度比較中繼續擴大。上個季度，客戶 NII 表現良好，無論是在資產方面，還是在負債方面，由於利率上升，融資結果都有所增加。

As a result, the spread increased importantly by 60 basis points. And this is not only due to the higher Selic rate, but also because of the rigor and discipline in asset pricing. Market NII saw a lower performance quarter-on-quarter, which can be attributed for the most part to a lower result of our treasury operations.

結果，利差大幅增加了60個基點。這不僅是因為 Selic 利率較高，還因為資產定價的嚴謹性和紀律性。市場 NII 表現較上一季下降，這在很大程度上是由於我們的資金營運表現下降。

Q3 was very good. Q4, a slightly lower performance quarter-on-quarter. And there was little impact of the Selic hike. And I emphasize, as we mentioned before, that we are focused on reducing sensitivity to interest rate variations in our results.

Q3 非常好。Q4，業績季減。塞利奇上調稅率的影響很小。我強調，正如我們之前提到的，我們專注於降低業績對利率變化的敏感度。

Fees showed good performance, good and recurring performance throughout 2024. We recorded growth of 10% in the full year and 3.4% in the fourth quarter, which once again brought us to all-time high levels, the result of our strategy of focusing on transactional products, and this is working really well.

2024 年全年費用表現良好、表現良好且持續。我們全年實現了 10% 的成長，第四季度實現了 3.4% 的成長，這再次使我們達到了歷史最高水平，這是我們專注於交易產品的策略的結果，而且這項策略非常有效。

Once again, I'd like to highlight the 13% growth in cards in Q4, 19% growth in the full year, a result well above the expansion of our client base, driven by higher spending coming from relationship, transactionality and loyalty. Loan operations and consortia showed increases in the quarter and considerable improvement in the year-on-year comparison, as you can see in the table.

我想再次強調第四季度信用卡業務成長了 13%，全年成長了 19%，這一成績遠高於我們客戶群的擴張，這得益於關係、交易和忠誠度帶來的更高支出。正如您在表格中所看到的，本季貸款業務和財團均有所增長，與去年同期相比也有了顯著改善。

In insurance, we see the effects of a lower production of credit life insurance for payroll loans. That's something we showed before. It's a decision that we took aiming profitability and some reduction in renewables of insurance during the period. But insurance ended 2024 with a 15% growth.

在保險業，我們看到了工資貸款信用人壽保險產量下降的影響。這是我們之前展示過的東西。這是我們所做的決定，旨在實現盈利，並減少保險續保費用。但到 2024 年，保險業將實現 15% 的成長。

On the next slide, we are going to talk about the quality of our assets, a reflection of our well-balanced loan granting and well-adjusted portfolios. We kept loan loss provisions, LLP practically stable in the quarter. As a result, our cost of risk fell by 3.5%, a reduction of 50 basis points in 12 months, very important.

在下一張投影片中，我們將討論我們的資產質量，這反映了我們均衡的貸款發放和調整良好的投資組合。本季度，我們的貸款損失準備金 LLP 基本上保持穩定。結果，我們的風險成本下降了3.5%，12個月內降低了50個基點，非常重要。

Here, it's important to note that we're beginning to see potential signs of a more challenging macro environment, more court-supervised reorganizations. You have followed this in the media and the market. More court-supervised reorganizations in agro and corporate, but these are portfolios with good guarantees and better resolution expectations.

在此，值得注意的是，我們開始看到宏觀環境更具挑戰性、法院監督的重組更多的潛在跡象。您已經在媒體和市場上關注了這一點。農業和企業領域中法院監督的重組有所增加，但這些投資組合具有良好的保障和更好的解決預期。

With regards to delinquency, short-term and long-term indicators remained practically stable. The increase you see in short-term delinquency among corporate is attributable to a higher volume of overdue payments in the quarter.

就犯罪率而言，短期和長期指標基本上保持穩定。企業短期拖欠現象的增加是由於本季逾期付款量增加。

And there are some cases that are one-off and are in the process of being settled in the short term. I know you're going to ask in the Q&A. So I will talk about Resolution 4966. The capital adjustment in 2025 will be around 14 basis points. We can speak more about that. We are focused on sustainable growth and long-term growth of our portfolio. We do active risk management. We have discipline in pricing and technical rigor in resource allocation. That's why we have the results we are posting.

有些案件是一次性的，正在短期內解決。我知道你會在問答環節提問。因此我將談論第 4966 號決議。2025年的資本調整將在14個基點左右。我們可以就此進行更多討論。我們專注於投資組合的可持續成長和長期成長。我們進行積極的風險管理。我們在定價方面有紀律，在資源配置方面有技術嚴謹性。這就是我們發布結果的原因。

Next, I'm going to talk about expenses. We're making progress in our cost for efficiency with an emphasis on a correct cost control, allocating expenses to be more profitable. Over the years, the growth in expenses was in line with inflation, actually a little below.

接下來我要講一下費用問題。我們在成本效率方面取得了進展，重點是正確的成本控制，分配費用以獲得更多利潤。多年來，支出的成長與通貨膨脹率保持一致，實際上略低於通貨膨脹率。

In the quarter, we had an impact on personnel expenses, 4.6% increase related to the collective bargaining agreement in addition to the increase in variable pay during the period, which is important and related to our growth.

本季度，我們對人事費用產生了影響，除了期間浮動工資的增加外，集體談判協議也增加了 4.6%，這很重要，與我們的成長有關。

As regards to administrative expenses, the increase results from the increase in marketing and data processing expenses as a result of the greater transactional activity, more business, and that is positive for our operation.

至於管理費用，由於交易活動增加、業務增加，導致行銷和數據處理費用增加，這對我們的營運有利。

Once again, expenses grew below revenues and contributed a lot to the continued operating leverage of the bank. We saw sequential improvement in the efficiency ratio with a drop of 5 percentage points in the full year.

再一次，支出成長低於收入，並為銀行持續的經營槓桿做出了巨大貢獻。效率比率較上月改善，全年下降5個百分點。

To end the results session, I bring you a slide for the full year. Mario has mentioned some of it. I'm going to detail it some. 2024 was a year of significant deliverables. The good performance reflected all of the actions we have implemented over the last three years. So it's a reflection of what we've been doing.

為了結束結果會議，我帶給大家一張全年的投影片。馬裡奧已經提到了其中的一些。我將詳細說明一下。 2024 年是取得重大成果的一年。良好的業績反映了我們過去三年來採取的所有行動。所以它反映了我們一直在做的事情。

We ended the year with an income of BRL13.9 billion, up 48% year-on-year and higher profitability with ROE close to 17% and core capital of 11%. We evolved in the composition of our earnings with revenues growing well above expenses. We improved diversification of credit, we improved revenues, funding. And of course, we strengthened our whole balance sheet. Our balance sheet is more balanced and strong.

我們今年的營收為 139 億巴西雷亞爾，年增 48%，獲利能力更強，ROE 接近 17%，核心資本為 11%。我們的獲利結構發生了變化，收入成長遠高於支出成長。我們改善了信貸多樣化，增加了收入和融資。當然，我們也加強了整個資產負債表。我們的資產負債表更加平衡和強勁。

Lastly, I would like to emphasize that our work is geared towards the medium and long term with the aim of guaranteeing sustainability, showing robustness and generating consistent results as we have been showing. So thank you very much. And I'll turn the floor back to Mario for his closing remarks.

最後，我想強調的是，我們的工作是著眼於中長期的，目的是確保永續性，展現穩健性，並產生一致的成果，正如我們已經展示的那樣。非常感謝。現在請馬裡奧做最後發言。

Thank you, Gustavo. To end, so we can have a lot of time for questions. We have six main takeaways. They are basically the closing of 2024 and how we started 2025. We are already 35 days in the 2025, and we count every day. So we have three big messages about clients and three big messages about the business.

謝謝你，古斯塔沃。就這樣結束了，這樣我們就有充足的時間來回答問題。我們有六個主要要點。它們基本上是 2024 年的結束和 2025 年的開始。距離2025年已經過了35天，我們每天都在計算著。因此，我們有三個關於客戶的重要資訊和三個關於業務的重要資訊。

Starting with the client as it should be. We're building a bank with 100% focus on a complete and principal relationship with the clients. It means I want to be able to serve my clients A to Z, not every time, but any time they need in the channel that they choose, the language they understand, the right offering for them. I want to have this full relationship, and complete relationship with them. With that, I will be able to have client primacy as we have been saying, which is we want to be the main bank in the lives of our clients.

應該從客戶開始。我們正在建立一家 100％ 專注於與客戶建立全面和主要關係的銀行。這意味著我希望能夠為客戶提供全方位的服務，不是每次，而是任何時候，透過他們選擇的管道，用他們理解的語言，為他們提供合適的服務。我希望與他們建立這種完整的關係。這樣，我就能做到客戶至上，正如我們一直說的，我們希望成為客戶生活中的主要銀行。

Second big takeaway. How do we do that? With growing hyper-personalization, treating each client individually as a unique person, they should feel that they are our main client. We like to talk about the bank, about ourselves. I want to talk less about the bank and talk more about the client. It's not about the bank being having principality. It is the client feeling that they have primacy with us, not the other way around.

第二個重要收穫。我們該怎麼做呢？隨著超個人化程度的不斷提高，我們將每個客戶視為一個獨特的個體，他們應該感覺自己是我們的主要客戶。我們喜歡談論銀行、談論自己。我想少談銀行，多談客戶。這與銀行是否擁有主權無關。客戶感覺他們對我們來說是最重要的，而不是相反。

Three messages about how we're going to run the bank. Gustavo mentioned how this message has to do with 2025, 2026 and the next 15 years. We want to continue to grow. We will continue to grow with discipline in managing our profitability and portfolio. So yes, we have a growth agenda, but it's not linear, not for all segments, not for all products, not aiming to have a bank share just for the sake of it. We want to do it smartly in a very dynamic way. And the top management, all the executive committee and myself are fully dedicated to having a more clinical management of our portfolio.

關於我們如何經營銀行的三個資訊。古斯塔沃提到了這則訊息與 2025 年、2026 年以及未來 15 年的關係。我們希望繼續成長。我們將繼續嚴格管理我們的獲利能力和投資組合。所以是的，我們有一個成長計劃，但它不是線性的，不是針對所有領域，不是針對所有產品，也不是為了佔有銀行份額而佔有銀行份額。我們希望以一種非常有活力的方式巧妙地做到這一點。高階管理人員、全體執行委員會以及我自己都全心全意地致力於對我們的投資組合進行更嚴謹的管理。

We have been showing this. With this, we'll have diversification in terms of revenue streams, get client primacy and proportionately increase funding and fees. And of course, credit is key. We are a bank. We know that credit is fundamental for the lives of our clients, but credit has to be the means and not the end itself. Credit is not the end itself. We have to be able to allocate our capital and credit in a smarter way. We've been doing this. We're quite satisfied with 2024.

我們一直在展示這一點。透過這種方式，我們將實現收入來源的多樣化，獲得客戶至上的地位，並相應增加資金和費用。當然，信譽是關鍵。我們是一家銀行。我們知道信用對客戶的生活至關重要，但信用必須是手段，而不是目的本身。信用本身並不是目的。我們必須能夠以更明智的方式分配我們的資本和信貸。我們一直在做這件事。我們對2024年非常滿意。

And to put it all together, we have technology. I don't have to have 1, 2, 3 slides to explain technology. Technology is embedded in everything we've said so far. In all of our messages, in all of the numbers Gustavo mentioned, there is technology. This is the big driver. It's a big differential that we'll pursue. We want to be distinctive in technology. It's not easy because the bar is always going higher and higher, but we innovate and to catch up where we need to catch up and to do more.

總而言之，我們擁有技術。我不需要用 1、2、3 張投影片來解釋科技。科技已經融入我們迄今為止所說的一切。在我們所有的資訊中，在古斯塔沃提到的所有數字中，都有技術。這是最大的驅動力。這是我們要追求的巨大差異。我們希望在技術上獨樹一幟。這並不容易，因為標準總是越來越高，但我們會創新，在需要趕上的地方迎頭趕上，並做得更多。

That's my final message, starting with the client, ending with technology, the two main pillars. with our leadership and our people doing all that. So now we are going to start the Q&A. It's going to be a pleasure to continue to answer your questions.

這是我的最後訊息，從客戶開始，到技術結束，這是兩大支柱。我們的領導層和我們的員工正在努力實現這一切。現在我們開始問答環節。我很樂意繼續回答您的問題。

(Operator Instructions)

（操作員指示）

Bernardo Guttmann, XP Investments.

Bernardo Guttmann，XP 投資公司。

Good morning, Camila, Mario, Gustavo. Good morning. Everyone, congrats on the results. My question is about the retail segment. The bank evolved a lot its franchise, redesigned its high-income business, launching a new digital proposal in mass retail.

早安，卡蜜拉、馬裡奧、古斯塔沃。早安.大家，祝賀你們所取得的成果。我的問題是關於零售領域的。該銀行大力發展其特許經營業務，重新設計了其高收入業務，並在大眾零售領域推出了新的數位化方案。

In addition to the contribution of all this to the cost of funding, how does this benefit the bank to be more prepared to face perhaps a new credit cycle, which will be perhaps more advanced? What were the most structural adjustments made in this segment? And what can we expect in terms of credit policy? Is there any segment that should be prioritized in this context?

除了這些因素對融資成本的影響之外，這如何使銀行更好地準備迎接可能更先進的新信貸週期？該部分做出的最多結構性調整是什麼？那麼，信貸政策方面我們能期待什麼呢？在此背景下，是否有任何部分應優先考慮？

Excellent Bernardo. Thank you. And that's a great question. We could spend the next hour speaking about that. But I'll try to be brief and Gustavo can add. Yes, we evolved a lot, and I briefly touched on that. We evolved a lot in terms of the way we are organized, and this means two pillars, what offerings we have for every segment and what is our model to serve. Of course, the journey is connecting all that. So last year, we delivered a lot in terms of offering and model of service. You mentioned retail. That's where we have the main transformation.

非常棒的伯納多。謝謝。這是一個很好的問題。我們可以花下一個小時來討論這個問題。但我會盡量簡短，Gustavo 可以補充。是的，我們已經進步了很多，我簡要地談到了這一點。我們的組織方式發生了很大變化，這意味著兩大支柱：我們為每個細分市場提供什麼產品，以及我們的服務模式是什麼。當然，旅程將這一切連結在一起。因此，去年我們在服務產品和模式方面取得了巨大進展。您提到了零售業。這就是我們主要的轉變之處。

We had mass retail, the new digital offering, it's the free offering, credit cards with no cost forever and many other benefits, not just that. And like I said, this has evolved quite well. We have brought in new clients and better quality clients on average compared to before. The onboarding has been very good, very assertive.

我們擁有大眾零售、新的數位產品、免費產品、永久免費的信用卡以及許多其他好處，不僅如此。正如我所說，這已經進展得相當順利了。與以前相比，我們平均獲得了新客戶，並且客戶品質也提高了。入職培訓非常好，非常積極。

We are not looking for a broad and totally open sea. We are looking for new clients in a technical and scientific way. At the end, we have practically all Brazilians that are pre-mapped. We have preapproved or 0 limits for dozens of millions of Brazilians. So we can look for new clients in a very clinical and surgical way.

我們追求的並不是一片廣闊而完全開放的海洋。我們正在以技術和科學的方式尋找新客戶。最後，我們幾乎已經預先繪製了所有巴西人的地圖。我們已經為數千萬巴西人預先批准或設定了 0 限額。因此，我們可以採用非常臨床和外科手術的方式來尋找新客戶。

In high income, as you mentioned, through the year, we had some repositioning. We had started doing this in 2022, and it was good. We started growing. To give you an idea in Select, in the turn of 2021 to '22, we had about 600,000 clients. We ended last year with 2.5 times this number. And this was very organic. Some targeting, but we grew a lot in high income.

正如您所提到的，在高收入方面，我們全年進行了一些重新定位。我們從 2022 年開始這樣做，效果很好。我們開始成長。給你一個概念，在 Select 中，在 2021 年至 2022 年間，我們擁有大約 60 萬名客戶。去年年底我們的數字是這個數字的 2.5 倍。這是非常自然的。雖然有一些目標，但我們在高收入方面成長了很多。

And now we take one more step forward, which we mentioned in January in the press. We simplified our coverage model even further. Now we have a targeting of our old high income (inaudible), which was a nice brand, but it was just one more brand. We did a lot of analytics, and we talked a lot with the clients. We figured that we needed to simplify that even more. It was a brave move.

現在我們又向前邁進了一步，我們在一月份的媒體上提到過這一點。我們進一步簡化了覆蓋模型。現在我們的目標是以前的高收入（聽不清楚），這是一個不錯的品牌，但它只是另一個品牌而已。我們做了很多分析，並與客戶進行了很多交流。我們認為我們需要進一步簡化這一點。這是一個勇敢的舉動。

Giving up a brand is not an obvious decision. But now we have the Santander client, mass retail, the old low middle income and the high middle income starts being Select. So that simplifies our offering. We're very excited with this new evolution.

放棄一個品牌並不是一個顯而易見的決定。但現在我們有了桑坦德銀行的客戶、大眾零售，原來的中低收入者和中高收入者開始被選擇。這樣就簡化了我們的服務。我們對這項新進展感到非常興奮。

How does credit behave in face of all that? Since 2022, we have been evolving a lot our models our systems, credit journeys. That's a part which is less visible in the market. We invested a lot in redesigning our credit types and our loan granting.

面對這一切，信用會如何表現？自 2022 年以來，我們一直在大力改進我們的模型、系統和信用旅程。這是市場上不太明顯的部分。我們投入了大量資金來重新設計我們的信貸類型和貸款發放。

Of course, in 2022, we had a lot of cuts, but our discipline of looking marginal production is daily. When the macroeconomic improves, I look at it every day, I go test to see how we can feed that back. With a more challenging macroeconomic environment, we'll continue to make these decisions.

當然，在 2022 年，我們進行了大量削減，但我們每天都會關注邊際產量。當宏觀經濟好轉時，我每天都會關注它，並進行測試看看我們如何能夠回饋它。在宏觀經濟環境更具挑戰性的情況下，我們將繼續做出這些決定。

Last year, before the interest rates increased a lot, the exchange rate increasing, we made important adjustments in Q3 as well as in Q4, and we didn't have the deterioration of December, which was partly reversed in January. So we have that kind of discipline.

去年，在利率大幅上升、匯率上升之前，我們在第三季和第四季都做出了重要調整，並沒有出現12月份那樣的惡化，1月份的情況有所逆轉。所以我們有這樣的紀律。

If I look at the number, we reduced our clean consumer credit in Q3, payroll loans started in Q3, became more visible in Q4. Payroll portfolio dropped quarter-on-quarter. And I've been talking about this with you. It's part of our discipline in terms of resource allocation, where I place my bets in our credit appetite. In the margin, we continue to grow our balance sheet, and we'll continue to be very selective with an additional input of a more difficult macroeconomic environment.

如果我看一下數字，我們在第三季減少了清潔消費信貸，薪資貸款從第三季開始，在第四季變得更加明顯。薪資組合季減。我一直在和你談論這個。這是我們資源配置紀律的一部分，我把賭注押在我們的信貸需求上。在利潤方面，我們將繼續擴大我們的資產負債表，並且我們將繼續非常有選擇性地投入更困難的宏觀經濟環境。

Of course, we want to grow even more in high income. But in high income, we'll be selective as we have always been. And now with the part of our middle income having migrated millions of clients migrating to Select, we are sure that we'll be able to serve these clients even better.

當然，我們希望在高收入方面實現更大的成長。但在高收入方面，我們會像往常一樣有所選擇。現在，隨著我們數百萬中等收入客戶轉向 Select，我們確信我們將能夠更好地為這些客戶提供服務。

So I'm optimistic to be able to grow in high income because it was a good portion of clients that were well served, but now wIll be able to be served in a differentiated way. But in mass retail, we have an agenda of growing with a focus on profitability. It doesn't mean we're going to grow in all products and at the same pace as we had in the past few years. So the same discipline.

因此，我對能夠在高收入領域實現成長持樂觀態度，因為很大一部分客戶都得到了良好的服務，但現在我們將能夠以差異化的方式為他們提供服務。但在大眾零售領域，我們制定了以獲利為重點的成長計畫。這並不意味著我們的所有產品都會像過去幾年一樣成長。所以是同樣的紀律。

SMEs were more impacted by the hike in Selic. But we continue to grow in SMEs. We have the appetite of doubling in size. We have almost BRL80 billion in our portfolio. We can have BRL150 billion in a couple of years.

塞利奇的中小企業受到漲價的影響更大。但我們在中小企業領域繼續發展。我們有擴大一倍規模的願望。我們的投資組合中有近800億巴西雷亞爾。我們可以在幾年內賺到1500億巴西雷亞爾。

Client base, we can grow some more millions of clients. We get to that, but with the same discipline of looking where are the subsectors that are more challenging or work to be close to clients, we'll do restructuring. We're doing with other banks. So it's BAU, business as usual, part of our management, but we'll continue to grow SMEs.

客戶群，我們可以增加數百萬客戶。我們實現了這個目標，但我們會按照同樣的原則尋找更具挑戰性或更貼近客戶的子行業，然後進行重組。我們正在與其他銀行合作。因此，這是 BAU，一切照舊，是我們管理的一部分，但我們將繼續發展中小企業。

And in wholesale, we didn't ask about that. But in wholesale, for years, we've had this discipline of looking at things to see whether they make sense or not. Capital allocation continues to be a good source for large corporates.

在批發方面，我們並沒有詢問過這個問題。但在批發業，多年來，我們一直秉持著這樣的原則：觀察事物是否合理。資本配置持續成為大型企業的良好來源。

We have a GCM franchise. We love that. We make money in fees and in distribution. But in terms of our capital, we'll look at the delta, RWA that makes sense with the loans. So we'll grow marginally this quarter sincerely because of the exchange rate, not a lack of appetite. It's because it made sense to allocate capital in high income, middle income, in consumer finance. So it's a long answer because it was a broad question.

我們擁有 GCM 特許經營權。我們喜歡這個。我們透過費用和分銷賺錢。但就我們的資本而言，我們會考慮與貸款相符的 delta 和 RWA。因此，本季我們的業績確實會小幅成長，這是因為匯率的原因，而不是因為缺乏興趣。這是因為將資金配置在高收入、中等收入和消費金融領域是合理的。由於這是一個很廣泛的問題，所以答案很長。

Super clear. Thank you very much.

超級清晰。非常感謝。

Eduardo Nishio, Genial.

愛德華多·西尾，Genial。

Good morning, Camila. Good morning, everyone. Good morning, Mario. Good morning, Gustavo. I have two questions. I mean the first question is about 2025. We start the year with a more difficult landscape, the perspective of an increase in the Selic rate. So if you could tell us a little bit about how you see 2025 in terms of the credit landscape or whether higher Selic rate impacts your market NII; in terms of fees, whether you will continue to grow double digits.

早安，卡米拉。大家早安。早安，馬裡奧。早上好，古斯塔沃。我有兩個問題。我的意思是第一個問題是關於 2025 年的。我們以更困難的情況開始新的一年，即 Selic 利率上升的前景。因此，如果您可以告訴我們一些關於您如何看待 2025 年的信貸形勢，或者更高的 Selic 利率是否會影響您的市場 NII；在費用方面，您是否會繼續保持兩位數的成長。

And also in relation to the OneApp, if you could elaborate a bit more on that app that you were launching. Also, if you could tell us whether you already tested with a controlled audience? And what will be the launching timing and whether you will be able to also offer personalized offers?

另外關於 OneApp，您是否可以更詳細地介紹一下您正在推出的這款應用程式？另外，您能否告訴我們您是否已經針對受控受眾進行了測試？什麼時候推出？是否還能提供個人化服務？

Great, Nishio. Thank you for the questions. I will start from the last one. Talking about OneApp, I mean, I just wanted to share the teaser with you. I mean we were even discussing whether we would tell you about it now or in the first quarter. But since we are beginning the 2025, we are starting this year. I know this is a teaser. We don't have a lot of information. I mean, in a way, it's on purpose because we want to elaborate more throughout the year. And so we are building it with our clients. Since 2023, we've been working on it. Just to be very precise since the third quarter of 2023.

太好了，西尾。謝謝您的提問。我將從最後一個開始。說到 OneApp，我的意思是，我只是想與你們分享這個預告片。我的意思是我們甚至在討論是否現在或在第一季告訴你這個消息。但既然我們已經進入 2025 年，那麼我們就從今年開始。我知道這只是個預告片。我們沒有太多的資訊。我的意思是，從某種程度上來說，這是故意的，因為我們想在全年進行更詳細的闡述。因此我們正在與客戶一起建立它。自 2023 年以來，我們一直在努力實現這一目標。準確地說是從 2023 年第三季開始。

I mean it's a lot of work to build a new app because we already have an app, but we are doing that with a lot of research. We are listening to our clients and non-clients. I mean, I know that we have excellent competitors, both digital banks or incumbent banks, but we want to be at least equal or we want to be very distinctive because this is how you win the game faster. The idea is to have a conversational app, much more than what we have today.

我的意思是，建立一個新應用程式需要做很多工作，因為我們已經有一個應用程式了，但我們正在進行大量研究。我們正在傾聽客戶和非客戶的意見。我的意思是，我知道我們有優秀的競爭對手，包括數位銀行和現有銀行，但我們希望至少保持平等，或者我們希望非常獨特，因為這是我們更快贏得比賽的方式。我們的想法是開發一個對話式應用程序，其功能遠遠超出我們目前所擁有的功能。

The idea is to have an app that brings this hyper-personalization in a more tangible way. We already have that in our current app. I mean, I don't know whether you're a client of us or not, but Santander clients should already see that hyper-personalization as individuals. So we're already seeing that more personalized approach. And we will increase that relationship further with OneApp. I mean this is all I can say. This is the teaser I can give you.

我們的想法是開發一個應用程序，以更切實的方式實現這種超個性化。我們目前的應用程式中已經有了它。我的意思是，我不知道您是否是我們的客戶，但桑坦德銀行的客戶應該已經將這種超個人化視為個人。所以我們已經看到了更個人化的方法。我們將進一步加強與 OneApp 的合作關係。我的意思是這就是我能說的全部。這是我可以給你的預告片。

But after the first quarter, I will be able to tell you more about it. I mean there will be more people testing and giving us feedback. This is something that will not move the needle too much in terms of our results for this year. But it is nonetheless a very important step because we moved several points ahead, and this changes the journey experience and also the relationship with the clients and transactionality. The results will come 2026 and further on. We will start with friends and family on April 1, but I'll talk about it more in the first quarter.

但第一季結束後，我就能告訴你更多相關資訊了。我的意思是會有更多的人進行測試並給我們回饋。就我們今年的業績而言，這不會產生太大影響。但這仍然是一個非常重要的舉措，因為我們向前邁進了幾個點，這改變了旅程體驗以及與客戶的關係和交易性。結果將在 2026 年及以後公佈。我們將於 4 月 1 日與朋友和家人開始見面，但我會在第一季談論更多。

About the perspectives for the year, I will not give you numbers because the fact that we do not give guidance. But yes, every bank is sensitive to the macroeconomic environment. I mean, I can't say, okay, it's 15 or 10 and everything will be the same. Of course, that's not the case. But we were working diligently to have some market sensitivity in the margin.

關於今年的前景，我不會給你數字，因為我們沒有提供指導。但是，每家銀行確實對宏觀經濟環境很敏感。我的意思是，我不能說，好吧，它是 15 或 10，一切都會一樣。當然，事實並非如此。但我們正努力在利潤率方面保持一定的市場敏感度。

Increasingly lower. I know that it's difficult for you to project things on the buy side. It's also difficult for them to understand it. But the bank has been in Brazil for 42 years, and we've always worked non-hedged, and Gustavo can tell you what that means in practical terms. This is something gradual that will not take place in one or two quarters. But I would say that in the short or mid-range, we will move towards an interest rate sensitivity that is quite different from what we had. So before this high spike, certainly, this brings some benefits.

愈來愈低。我知道你很難從買方角度預測事情。他們也很難理解這一點。但該銀行已在巴西經營了 42 年，而且我們一直都採用非對沖方式開展業務，古斯塔沃可以告訴你這在實際上意味著什麼。這是一個漸進的過程，不是一兩個季度就能實現的。但我想說，在短期或中期內，我們將走向與以往截然不同的利率敏感度。因此，在出現這一高峰之前，這肯定會帶來一些好處。

In terms of appetite, you might recall that in the third quarter, I told you during our Q&A session that we anticipated that we will grow a few percentage points less than what the market anticipated. And it was okay for me. And some people even said, well, Santander is probably less ambitious in terms of growing the portfolio, and that was maybe a negative highlight or less cautious. But in hindsight, I'm very comfortable with what I said because I think the market ended up converging to what I said, but I am the first one to raise my head.

就胃口而言，您可能還記得，在第三季的問答環節中，我告訴過您，我們預計成長率將比市場預期低幾個百分點。對我來說這沒什麼。有些人甚至說，桑坦德銀行在擴大投資組合方面可能不那麼雄心勃勃，這可能是一個負面亮點或不夠謹慎。但事後看來，我對自己說的話感到非常滿意，因為我認為市場最終會向我所說的靠攏，但我是第一個抬起頭的人。

We see already signs that it didn't make sense to think about a credit portfolio 2-digit growth. But as I was saying, we continue to work hard in preparing the bank to grow because this is a growth agenda. I can't just say we will be grow the same, nothing will change, but I want to be more technical and to give you more details because I know that we have shareholders and a controlling company that is constantly demanding results from us. But I'll stop right here, and Gustavo now can add some more comments.

我們已經看到一些跡象表明，考慮信貸組合的兩位數成長是沒有意義的。但正如我所說，我們將繼續努力為銀行的成長做好準備，因為這是一個成長議程。我不能只是說我們會以同樣的速度增長，什麼都不會改變，但我想更專業地講，並向你們提供更多細節，因為我知道我們有股東和控股公司，他們不斷要求我們取得成果。但我在這裡就此打住，Gustavo 現在可以添加一些評論。

We had already talked to you about that in the third quarter. So in terms of market and sensitivity to interest rates in September, we started hedging of marginal projections. In terms of direction, this contemplates a gradual projection throughout the period to reduce sensitivity. So in marginal production, you do the hedging, but you still have some stock. You know that the average term of pre-fixed transactions is 18 months. So this gives you an idea of what could play ahead, but the decision has already been made regardless of the macro.

我們已經在第三季與您討論過這個問題。因此，就9月的市場和利率敏感度而言，我們開始對邊際預測進行避險。從方向來看，這設想在整個期間內逐步進行投射，以降低敏感度。因此，在邊際生產中，您進行了對沖，但仍然有一些庫存。您知道預定交易的平均期限為 18 個月。因此，這可以讓您了解接下來會發生什麼，但無論宏觀如何，決定都已經做出了。

This strategic decision was made in September, and we are executing to plan. This is a process. We are making progress. And again, this allows us to have more predictability, less sensitivity, but not only for 2025, but '26, '27 and '28 and so on and so forth. So this is a strategic decision that has already been made and it's just evolving.

這項戰略決策是在九月做出的，我們正在按計劃執行。這是一個過程。我們正在取得進展。再次，這讓我們有更高的可預測性，更少的敏感性，不僅適用於 2025 年，也適用於 2026 年、2027 年和 2028 年等等。所以這是一個已經做出並且不斷發展的戰略決策。

Now if you talk about the portfolios, we are prepared to grow. We want to grow. We made adjustments. We always make adjustments whenever necessary. But now it pretty much depends on demand. So what could happen to the auto market. If there is demand, we have what it takes to grow. I mean, let's say the demand is the same, but the ticket is different. So with the same funding, you probably give a downgrade to the kind of vehicle that you buy. But we are well prepared.

現在，如果您談論投資組合，我們已經做好了成長的準備。我們想要成長。我們做出了調整。我們總是在必要時做出調整。但現在它很大程度取決於需求。那麼汽車市場會發生什麼事呢？如果有需求，我們就有能力實現成長。我的意思是，假設需求相同，但票價不同。因此，在資金相同的情況下，您可能會降低所購買車輛的等級。但我們已經做好了充分的準備。

And technically, we are well adjusted to go through 2025 that may have different characteristics. We've been prepared and we are prepared. The bank is a very large bank. So we've been prepared for quite some time. And as Mario said, from the third to fourth quarter, we made some additional cuts. We do that whenever necessary, and we make adjustments whenever we see performances that make sense in terms of profitability. So basically, this is it for 2025.

從技術上講，我們已經做好了充分的準備，迎接可能具有不同特徵的2025年。我們已經做好準備，並且已經做好準備。這家銀行是一家非常大的銀行。所以我們已經準備了相當長一段時間了。正如馬裡奧所說，從第三季度到第四季度，我們又做了一些削減。只要有必要，我們就會這樣做；只要我們看到盈利能力方面合理的表現，我們就會做出調整。所以基本上，這就是 2025 年的情況。

There is a lot more to come. What was market volatility in December is already different. In January, there is a major difference between what happened in last December and January. The expectations changed. The curves resume to the levels of what it grew in December. Therefore, we are prepared, and we are following the strategy already agreed upon.

未來還會有更多。12 月的市場波動已經有所不同。今年一月份，與去年十二月相比，一月份的情況有很大不同。期望發生了變化。曲線恢復到 12 月的成長水準。因此，我們已經做好了準備，並且正在按照已經商定的策略行事。

Okay. Thank you, and congrats on the results.

好的。謝謝，恭喜你所取得的成果。

Pedro Leduc, Itau BBA.

佩德羅·勒杜克（Pedro Leduc），伊塔烏 BBA。

Good morning, everyone. Congrats on the results and congratulations on the year. And my question is about NII and NIM. I mean, client NII was positive. It was not obvious if you look from the outside in terms of portfolio mix. It wasn't so obvious to explain it. I would just like to ask you to elaborate a bit more on that line and looking at 2025 and whether client NII can grow above the portfolio. I know that client NII involves a lot of things. You have the portfolio mix, volume and funding. So if you could talk about these three pillars, I would appreciate it. Thank you.

大家早安。恭喜所取得的成果並祝賀新的一年。我的問題是關於 NII 和 NIM 的。我的意思是，客戶 NII 是積極的。如果從外部來看投資組合，這一點並不明顯。解釋起來並不那麼明顯。我只是想請您更詳細地闡述這條線，並展望 2025 年以及客戶 NII 是否能夠超越投資組合。我知道客戶端NII涉及很多事情。您擁有投資組合、交易量和資金。因此，如果您能談談這三大支柱，我將不勝感激。謝謝。

So Pedro, I'll just start with a very brief introduction, and then I will turn the floor to Gustavo. Thank you. This is a very good question. I will link client NIM with we've talked about not only this quarter, but in the past quarters. Whenever we talk about the active management of the portfolio, when we talk about loan directioning as a means to get to transactions and our relationship with clients, when we talk about not growing linearly, but choosing products and segments.

佩德羅，我將先做一個非常簡短的介紹，然後我將把發言權交給古斯塔沃。謝謝。這是一個非常好的問題。我將把客戶 NIM 與我們不僅在本季度而且在過去幾季討論過的內容聯繫起來。每當我們談論投資組合的主動管理時，當我們談論貸款指導作為達成交易和與客戶建立關係的一種手段時，當我們談論的不是線性增長，而是選擇產品和細分市場時。

Everything has a connection with clients. And this also is connected to the overall portfolio with clients. And things are evolving quite well. We've never had such high funding. With individuals last year, we had a very positive year, and this also has some other recurring effects. When we talk about redirectioning and this fine-tuning of our portfolio, Pedro, in practical terms, we are prioritizing, I mean, always looking at our credit criteria. But at the end, we are talking about focusing on products where I can have a transactional product that gives me floating and floating obviously is also part of that client NIM commission.

一切都與客戶有關。這也與客戶的整體投資組合有關。事情進展得相當順利。我們從未獲得過如此高的資金。就我個人而言，去年我們度過了非常積極的一年，而且這也產生了一些其他的重複性影響。佩德羅，當我們談論重新定向並對我們的投資組合進行微調時，從實際角度來說，我們正在優先考慮，我的意思是，我們始終關注我們的信用標準。但最後，我們討論的是專注於我可以擁有一種能給我浮動的交易產品的產品，而浮動顯然也是客戶 NIM 佣金的一部分。

This is something on the side, but it does have a relationship with that strategy. And there is also a topic related to pricing discipline. And Gustavo, I'm sure, will have something to say about that. Funding costs, I mean, I think it grew 400 basis points, 500 basis points and on average over 200. But year-on-year, we managed to have a very good spread discipline.

這是側面的事情，但和那個策略確實有關係。還有一個與定價紀律相關的主題。我確信古斯塔沃會對此發表一些看法。我的意思是，我認為融資成本成長了 400 個基點、500 個基點，平均成長了 200 多個基點。但與去年同期相比，我們成功地實現了非常好的傳播紀律。

So this reshuffling of the portfolio coupled with pricing discipline and the choice of products where I can also add price and have a better cross-selling. This summarizes the strategy. And a great part of the explanation behind the numbers is this, but Gustavo can elaborate further.

因此，這種產品組合的重組加上定價原則和產品的選擇，我也可以提高價格並實現更好的交叉銷售。這概括了該策略。這些數字背後的解釋很大一部分是這樣的，但 Gustavo 可以進一步闡述。

Pedro, First of all, there is pricing discipline. The curves that are referenced in terms of giving prices, door-to-door grew on average 500 basis points. We produced over the year BRL500 million in loans. If we didn't have a good pricing discipline, there will be a compression over the credit spread. And it's important to be very rigorous and to look at every portfolio and see what would be the best organization of the portfolios to extract better benefits from that credit portfolio.

佩德羅，首先，有定價紀律。上門報價所參考的曲線平均成長了 500 個基點。我們全年發放了 5 億巴西雷亞爾貸款。如果我們沒有良好的定價紀律，信用利差就會受到壓縮。非常重要的是要非常嚴謹地審視每一個投資組合，並找出最佳的投資組合組織方式，以便從信貸投資組合中獲得更好的收益。

We do that every day, every week. We meet regularly to test elasticity and to test everything and what it takes for us to get there. Sometimes we test some things even in detriment of losing share. We do that very rigorously and with all of the details possible.

我們每天、每週都這樣做。我們定期開會測試彈性並測試一切以及我們達到目標所需的一切。有時我們甚至會以失去市場份額為代價來測試一些東西。我們非常嚴格地進行這項工作，並考慮到所有可能的細節。

I mean, to answer your questions, from that 60 basis points in delta in the quarter, maybe we could say that 60% of that comes from funding or deposits and things like that. And the remainder comes from our very rigorous discipline in credit spreads.

我的意思是，回答你的問題，從本季 60 個基點的 delta 來看，也許我們可以說其中 60% 來自資金或存款等。其餘部分則來自於我們對信用利差的嚴格控制。

I think this is pretty much where we wanted to go, but this is how we operated in the quarter. We will continue to pursue this discipline. What could happen maybe in the future, if future curves are lower, we have to keep our discipline to maintain the spread. But we are not going to change our dynamics because it is working. And that differential, an important part of that comes from how we extract value from credit. It's important that we are growing, not only that, but we are growing and we are expanding our credit spread.

我認為這幾乎就是我們想要達到的目標，但這就是我們本季的營運方式。我們將繼續推行這項紀律。未來可能發生什麼情況，如果未來的曲線較低，我們必須保持紀律以維持利差。但我們不會改變我們的動力，因為它正在發揮作用。而這種差異，一個重要部分來自於我們如何從信貸中提取價值。重要的是我們正在成長，不僅如此，我們還在成長並且正在擴大我們的信貸利差。

And Pedro, to conclude, I think you also asked whether the market could expect us to grow client NIM above the portfolio. Certainly, yes. I mean, I think last quarter, there was a topic saying that the lack of indexation of the bank vis-a-vis the growth of the balance sheet. I mean it's important to grow the balance sheet. I'm not going to demonize it because we will continue to grow. We do have the necessary capital to grow, and we will invest in growth where we have to invest like clients, et cetera.

佩德羅，最後，我想你也問過市場是否可以預期我們將客戶 NIM 的成長提高到投資組合之上。當然可以。我的意思是，我認為上個季度有一個主題說銀行資產負債表的成長缺乏指數化。我的意思是，擴大資產負債表很重要。我不會妖魔化它，因為我們會繼續成長。我們確實擁有發展所需的資本，並且我們將在必須投資的領域（例如客戶等）進行投資以實現成長。

But the major challenge that I put forward last year, and now this is becoming more practical. So how can I extract more value from the capital I have and from what I have. It doesn't mean that it will come from the same client, the same product. I can reshuffle things and we see that happening.

但我去年提出的重大挑戰現在變得更加實際了。那麼我該如何從我擁有的資本和我所擁有的東西中提取更多的價值呢？這並不意味著它會來自同一個客戶、同一個產品。我可以重新調整事情，然後我們就會看到它發生。

So we want to de-index growth and do exactly what you said. We want to grow results more than what we have to grow balance sheet. And with that, we will increase profitability much faster when compared to what we would have done the old way. And we will do that with everything that Gustavo said, not only this year, but throughout the next coming years. Thank you very much.

因此，我們希望降低指數增長並按照您所說的去做。我們希望實現業績成長，而不是資產負債表成長。這樣一來，與以前相比，我們的獲利能力將提高得更快。我們將按照古斯塔沃所說的一切去做，不僅在今年，而且在接下來的幾年裡。非常感謝。

Daniel Vaz, Safra Bank.

丹尼爾·瓦茲，Safra 銀行。

Good morning, Camila, Mario, Gustavo. Congratulations on the results. I'd like to go back to a point Gustavo mentioned, hedging of the new production starting in September. when we look at the sensitivity when you have three shock scenarios, it looks like scenario two when we have an increase in the interest curve impacting your funding.

早安，卡蜜拉、馬裡奧、古斯塔沃。恭喜你取得這樣的成績。我想回到古斯塔沃提到的觀點，即從 9 月開始對新產品進行對沖。當我們觀察三種衝擊情景下的敏感度時，看起來就像第二種情景，即利率曲線上升影響了你的資金。

When we look at the number, there is a relevant impact in the trading and banking portfolios. So would you think that the hedge for next year will help your ALM because all analysts are looking at a negative number of around BRL2 billion. So I'd like to get your opinion about the market since we talked about clients to understand what you are expecting for 2025? Thank you.

當我們查看這個數字時，會發現它對交易和銀行投資組合有相關影響。那麼您是否認為明年的對沖將有助於您的資產負債管理 (ALM)，因為所有分析師都看到了約 20 億巴西雷亞爾的負數。因此，既然我們談到了客戶，我想聽聽您對市場的看法，以了解您對 2025 年的期望？謝謝。

Hi, thank you for the question. This is a very complex question, but let me try to address that. As what I said, we are in this progression of hedging. What will happen is we'll have lower exposure, less exposure, but we'll still have some exposure.

你好，謝謝你的提問。這是一個非常複雜的問題，但請讓我試著解答一下。正如我所說的，我們正處於對沖的過程中。實際情況是，我們的曝光度會降低，曝光度會減少，但我們仍然會有一些曝光。

On the banking side, we'll have some exposure. If the portfolio conditions are maintained, depending on how we produce the portfolio, we'll have more or less position. If we produce as we are producing. We give you an example of what happened in Q4. If we produce less in the portfolio of payroll loans, we'll have less sensitivity because I'm originating less for something which is prefixed compared to Selic rate. So we'll continue to reduce our sensitivity with hedging for the banking book.

在銀行方面，我們會有一些接觸。如果投資組合條件得以維持，那麼根據我們如何製作投資組合，我們的持股將會增加或減少。如果我們按照目前的生產方式進行生產。我們舉一個第四季發生的事情的例子。如果我們在薪資貸款組合中產出的資金較少，我們的敏感度就會降低，因為與 Selic 利率相比，我發放的固定利率貸款較少。因此，我們將繼續降低對銀行帳戶對沖的敏感度。

It will depend on the composition of the portfolio in 2025 and that depends on the rigor we established and how we are going to go about this. We won't grow in a disorganized fashion all portfolios. that can imply more or less sensitivity. It's hard to say ex empty. And we have the FIS, which has a higher carry than 2024. This is a given because we have a portfolio. You know the size of the portfolio and that implied in capital effects due to marking to market. And that's the logic, but we will reduce our sensitivity.

這將取決於 2025 年投資組合的組成，也取決於我們建立的嚴謹性以及我們將如何進行。我們不會以混亂的方式擴大所有投資組合。這可能意味著或多或少的敏感性。很難說ex是空的。我們還有 FIS，其攜帶量比 2024 年更高。這是理所當然的，因為我們有投資組合。您知道投資組合的規模以及因以市價計價而產生的資本效應。這是邏輯，但我們會降低我們的敏感度。

We all have our FS positioning. I cannot really give you a number because we can have positives depending on the futures curves and how they behave, they can mitigate the sensitivity effect. So what is important to you in my opinion, you can do a number of calculations. you can calculate sensitivity to interest rates and you have to see the progression of Selic rate over time.

我們都有自己的FS定位。我實際上無法給你一個數字，因為我們可以根據期貨曲線及其表現獲得正面的結果，它們可以減輕敏感度效應。所以我認為對你來說重要的是，你可以做一些計算。你可以計算對利率的敏感度，並且必須看到 Selic 利率隨時間的進展。

You cannot compare point against point. You have to see a progression because NIM has to do with unexpected events. So you have to think about how to do the math. But what is more important is that we will follow the script. The script will not change in 2025. We will not change our policy because 2025 is different because our policy will remain.

你不能將觀點與觀點進行比較。您必須看到進展，因為 NIM 與意外事件有關。所以你必須思考如何做數學計算。但更重要的是我們會按照劇本來。2025年劇本也不會改變。我們不會改變我們的政策，因為 2025 年有所不同，我們的政策將保持不變。

So your question is great, but it is quite complex to address. But that's how you have to think. You can start with sensitivity. You have to look at the average of Selic rates, the trajectory of Selic, but there are variables that still have not happened. So ex anti, it is very hard to do this calculation. I mean I think it's not that simple, but that's how our balance sheet behaves. Our balance sheet is quite large, so it has a progression.

所以你的問題很好，但解決起來卻相當複雜。但你必須這樣想。你可以從敏感性開始。你必須看看塞利奇的平均利率、塞利奇的軌跡，但仍有一些變數尚未發生。因此，除此之外，進行這種計算是非常困難的。我的意思是，我認為這不是那麼簡單，但這就是我們的資產負債表的表現。我們的資產負債表相當大，因此它有一個進展。

Putting it differently, we don't expect anything similar to the 2021 to 2022 impact, which lasted for a good part of 2023. The expected increase is relevant, but it is not compared to what happened before when we started having that Selic rate hike.

換句話說，我們預計不會出現類似 2021 年至 2022 年的影響，這種影響持續了 2023 年的大部分時間。預期的成長是相關的，但與我們開始提高 Selic 利率之前發生的情況相比，情況就不一樣了。

But in practice, the fact that we are managing the business in a more evolved way, we will mitigate that. You will see this effect being amortized along 2025 and part of 2026. But of course, there will be some impact given the carry of our portfolio. But we are working with that, Gustavo, to have a renewal of the securities, exchanging the securities. So we have to potentially have positions that are able to be realized.

但在實踐中，我們正在以更先進的方式管理業務，我們將減輕這種情況。您將看到這一影響將在 2025 年和 2026 年的部分時間內攤提。但當然，考慮到我們的投資組合，這會產生一些影響。但是，古斯塔沃，我們正在努力更新證券，交換證券。因此我們必須具備能夠實現的潛在地位。

In January, we had some progress. So over time, we'll be able to manage our portfolio with mitigating factors as all banks do. But this is a decision that we make in mid-Q3. We start executing in September, and that was a decision made. It's being executed, and it is independent of Selic increasing 100 points or 150 points or remaining where it is. The decision has been made and will be positive for the management of the bank and for your ability to read our earnings and be able to project over time.

一月份，我們取得了一些進展。因此，隨著時間的推移，我們將能夠像所有銀行一樣利用緩解因素來管理我們的投資組合。但這是我們在第三季中期做出的決定。我們將於九月開始執行，這是已經做出的決定。它正在執行，並且與塞利奇增加 100 分、150 分或保持現狀無關。該決定已經做出，對於銀行的管理以及您了解我們的收益並能夠進行長期預測的能力都將產生積極的影響。

Okay. Very satisfactory answer for a very complex question.

好的。對於一個非常複雜的問題，給出了非常令人滿意的答案。

Eric Ito, Bradesco BBI.

埃里克·伊藤（Eric Ito），Bradesco BBI。

Hello, Camila, Mario, Gustavo. Thank you for the opportunity. Congratulations on the results. Regarding 4699, you mentioned the expectation of impact on net shareholders' equity. So what are you sharing in terms of expectations for recurring impact in terms of provisioning, commissioning for the brokers impact on revenue? What can you share in terms of the potential impact of 4699?

你好，卡米拉、馬裡奧、古斯塔沃。感謝您提供的機會。恭喜你取得這樣的成績。關於 4699，您提到了對淨股東權益影響的預期。那麼，就供應、經紀商佣金對收入的經常性影響而言，您有何預期？能分享一下 4699 的潛在影響嗎？

Gustavo?

古斯塔沃？

Well, the impact on capital, I think, is clear in 2025 and what it will be. And then we have to phase in. It depends on our capital performance and so on and so forth. But it is important that you know what is the impact for 2025. There will be a benefit of the deferral of some fees and payments. And there will be an increment of our provisions given the fact that 4966 being different, 4966 has some floors.

嗯，我認為，到 2025 年，對資本的影響將會很明顯。然後我們必須逐步實施。這取決於我們的資本表現等等。但重要的是你要知道這對 2025 年有何影響。延期支付一些費用和付款將帶來好處。由於 4966 有所不同，我們的準備金將會增加，4966 有一些樓層。

It costs more to originate. So there will be more provisions. compared to 6682. We cannot give you numbers ex anti again, but this combination of the positives, the positive deferral and more provisions given the new rule, I believe that everything will be quite adjusted. Of course, we have to run a few months. This is a new dynamic, but we estimate that there will be a neutral impact given the adjustments for deferrals versus this new dynamic of ALL, ALL price will be different than in the past. So net, we believe that this is going to be a neutral effect.

發起成本更高。因此與 6682 相比，將會有更多的規定。我們無法再次給出反方數字，但是結合這些積極因素、積極的延期以及新規則提供的更多規定，我相信一切都會得到很好的調整。當然，我們必須跑幾個月。這是一個新的動態，但我們估計，考慮到延期調整，將產生中性影響，而所有價格的新動態都將與過去不同。因此，我們認為這將產生中性影響。

And let me add to that. There were a lot of questions in Q3 and in our conversations that we had in between the calls. questions regarding what's going to happen to CET1, the capital base and payout, you're possibly going to be asking about that. So again, we are at about 11%. We are comfortable with that order of magnitude. So it's an order of magnitude that gives us peace of mind, and it's part of our alignment with the group.

讓我補充一下。在第三季以及我們在電話會議之間的談話中，我們提出了許多問題。關於 CET1、資本基礎和支出將會發生什麼的問題，您可能會問到這些問題。因此，我們的佔比約為 11%。我們對這個數量級感到滿意。因此，這是一個讓我們安心的數量級，也是我們與集團保持一致的一部分。

Again, we are part of a group that has a CET1 close to 13%, 12.9%. So our way of operating Santander Group zooming out now is to have adequate capital with the adequate buffers at the different affiliates but surpluses of capital at the group level, which in my point of view, makes a lot of sense because there are shareholders there that see the portfolio as a whole in euros. So we get to a level, which is super okay in our view.

再次，我們屬於 CET1 接近 13%、12.9% 的群體。因此，我們現在經營桑坦德集團的方式是，在不同的附屬公司擁有充足的資本和足夠的緩衝，但在集團層面擁有資本盈餘，在我看來，這非常有意義，因為那裡的股東以歐元來看待整個投資組合。因此，我們認為我們達到了一個非常好的水平。

And talking about payout distribution, it allows us to continue to have an agenda of value with a payout level which is compatible with what we had last year. But with the bank growing over the years, we want to nominally continue to have a greater payout. The fact deferral happened, it is positive. It is positive for the industry and for us because it will allow us to have the progression we've been having with IOC, dividend payout and so on and so forth.

談到支出分配，它使我們能夠繼續制定有價值的議程，其支出水平與去年的水平相一致。但隨著銀行多年來的發展，我們名義上希望繼續獲得更高的報酬。延期的事實是正面的。這對行業和我們來說都是積極的，因為它將使我們在 IOC、股息支付等方面取得進展。

Perfect. Super clear. Thank you very much.

完美的。超級清晰。非常感謝。

Gustavo Schroden, Citi.

花旗銀行的古斯塔沃‧施羅登 (Gustavo Schroden)。

Good morning, Mario, Gustavo. Thank you for taking my question. Congrats on your results. Mario just answered the question I had about a level that is lower than historical numbers. But I think it's here to stay. I just want to to insist on this topic. I mean, it's lower when compared to your track record. I'm not saying that it's inadequate. It's just lower than your historical numbers.

早安，馬裡奧、古斯塔沃。感謝您回答我的問題。恭喜你所取得的成績。馬裡奧剛剛回答了我關於低於歷史數字的水平的問題。但我認為它會繼續存在。我只是想堅持這個話題。我的意思是，與你的過往記錄相比，這個數字較低。我並不是說它不夠好。它只是比你的歷史數字低。

With the level of results posted by the bank, the bank at one point had, I mean, achieved 17.6% of ROE. You cover an extensive journey when you face more difficult times with an ROE of 9% and 9.5%. But this equity one close to 11%, I mean, CET1 close to 11% with the growth of NIM, efficiency also improving. Can we start working with an ROE close to 20%?

以該銀行公佈的業績水準來看，該銀行一度實現了 17.6% 的 ROE。當您面臨更困難的時期時，您將以 9% 和 9.5% 的 ROE 完成漫長的旅程。但這股權接近11％，我的意思是，CET1接近11％，隨著NIM的成長，效率也在提高。我們可以從接近 20% 的 ROE 開始工作嗎？

Do you think that this could be a reasonable number? I'm not asking for guidance. I just want some direction. do you think that the bank could leave that number of 10% and go more towards 17%, 18%? Maybe we should look at a larger mission. And I'm talking about CET1 because that has an impact because 11% gives you more leverage, and this could also allow for higher returns. If you could elaborate a bit more on that topic, I would appreciate it. Thank you.

您認為這個數字合理嗎？我並不是在尋求指導。我只是想要一些指導。您是否認為銀行可以放棄 10% 這個數字，而將利率提高到 17% 或 18%？也許我們應該考慮一個更大的使命。我之所以談論 CET1，是因為它會產生影響，因為 11% 會給你更多的槓桿，這也可以帶來更高的回報。如果您能就該主題更詳細地闡述一下，我將不勝感激。謝謝。

Thank you, Gustavo. Thank you for your question. I will start from where I finished the last question. When I refer to that 11%, which is a very comfortable level, I'm not saying that it will be 11% or 11.0% or 11%, whatever. In fact, we do not have a problem in working at a level of around 11%. I don't want to give any guidance, but just so you understand how we think. 11% or below that, I do not have to aim at 11%, 12%, just so that we will be more comfortable in terms of CET1. 11-ish, I mean, that doesn't make us uncomfortable at all. And Santander shareholders are not uncomfortable with that.

謝謝你，古斯塔沃。感謝您的提問。我將從我完成的上一個問題開始。當我提到 11% 這個非常舒適的水平時，我並不是說它會是 11% 或 11.0% 或 11% 等等。事實上，我們在 11% 左右的水平上工作沒有任何問題。我不想給任何指導，只是想讓你了解我們的想法。 11% 或以下，我不必瞄準 11%、12%，只是為了讓我們在 CET1 方面更舒適。 11 左右，我的意思是，這根本不會讓我們感到不舒服。桑坦德銀行的股東對此並不感到不舒服。

I mean, how do you see our mission in terms of profitability? We continue to pursue, and I said that some quarters ago, not only in this situation, but in other interviews, we are still seeking for that level of 20%. 20% is not our final goal.

我的意思是，從獲利能力的角度來看，您如何看待我們的使命？我們會繼續追求，我幾個季度前就說過，不僅在這種情況下，而且在其他採訪中，我們仍在追求 20% 的水平。 20% 不是我們的最終目標。

I mean, we shouldn't even have a final goal. We should always pursue raising the bar. But this is a level that we should pursue, and this is part of what we do, and you have to constantly ask us about that 20% number. I don't see 20% as something that will happen in a very short period of time. But certainly, this could be like the end game in the point of view of numbers of this current cycle that I'm calling the transformation of the operation.

我的意思是，我們甚至不應該有最終目標。我們應該始終追求提高標準。但這是我們應該追求的水平，也是我們工作的一部分，你必須不斷向我們詢問那個 20% 的數字。我不認為 20% 會在很短的時間內實現。但可以肯定的是，從數字的角度來看，這可能就像當前週期的最終結果，我稱之為操作的轉變。

I mean, this transformation can only be materialized in this phase, and I'm sure it will be much better when we reach that level of 20%. Yes, we will pursue 20%. I continue to believe in that number. Every quarter, we can visualize. We cannot touch it, but I can visualize what are the levers that will allow us to go there. We have to work better in terms of our cost to serve. We have to be more efficient. I mean it's nice that we are now at 38%, but 38% is obviously not the level we want to be. We have to get an additional 5 points of reduction. So we have to work diligently.

我的意思是，這種轉變只能在這個階段實現，我相信當我們達到 20% 的水平時會好得多。是的，我們會追求20%。我仍然相信這個數字。每個季度，我們都可以想像。我們無法觸摸它，但我可以想像哪些槓桿可以讓我們到達那裡。我們必須在服務成本方面做得更好。我們必須提高效率。我的意思是，我們現在達到 38% 是件好事，但 38% 顯然不是我們想要的水平。我們必須獲得額外的5點減免。所以我們必須勤奮工作。

This year, we have many challenges. I mean our top line growth was 14%. Our top line may not grow the same 14%, but we have to start working in grasping more things. I mean our revenue is 3 times higher than expenses, higher than ALL. So we have to be very focused.

今年，我們面臨很多挑戰。我的意思是我們的營業額成長率是14%。我們的營業額可能不會成長同樣的 14%，但我們必須開始努力掌握更多的東西。我的意思是我們的收入比支出高出三倍，比所有支出都高。所以我們必須非常專注。

And with that, we will continue to get there. We will continue to converge towards that 20%. The closer we get, of course, you have to look for more. Every 1% will raise the bar. I mean we have to look for ways to increase that further with a lot of discipline, of course, but you can be demanding of us. It is just a mix of how larger jaw can open. And so 2025, our discipline will be even greater. But the top line has to be one that we would not regret later on because we don't want it to impact our cost of risk. Basically, this is it.

有了這個，我們將繼續努力實現這一目標。我們將繼續朝那20%的目標邁進。當然，我們越接近，你就必須尋找更多。每 1% 都會提高標準。我的意思是，我們必須尋找方法，透過嚴格的紀律來進一步提高這一點，當然，但你可以對我們提出更高的要求。這只是下顎張開程度較大的混合體。因此，到 2025 年，我們的紀律將會更加嚴格。但最重要的一點是，我們以後不會後悔，因為我們不希望它影響我們的風險成本。基本上就是這樣。

Thank you, Mario. It's very clear. And thank you, and again, congratulations.

謝謝你，馬裡奧。非常清楚。謝謝你，再次恭喜你。

Mario Pierry, Bank of America.

美國銀行的馬裡奧·皮埃里 (Mario Pierry)。

Good morning. Congratulations on your results. Mario, Gustavo. I had two questions. I mean, they are follow-up questions. The first question, I mean, Gustavo just talked about efficiency. And when we look at it, you are increasing expenses below inflation. I just want to have a better understanding. What are the initiatives you have in the pipeline for the coming years that would allow you to grow below the inflation. Having said that, I mean, given the needs that banks have to invest in technology, et cetera, Mario, you said that you see there is additional room to improve efficiency. So I just want to understand a little bit of that.

早安.恭喜你所取得的成績。馬裡奧，古斯塔沃。我有兩個問題。我的意思是，這些都是後續問題。第一個問題，我的意思是，古斯塔沃剛才談到了效率。當我們觀察它時，你會發現你的支出成長低於通貨膨脹率。我只是想更好地理解。未來幾年，您計劃採取哪些舉措來使您的企業在通膨率以下實現成長？話雖如此，我的意思是，考慮到銀行需要在技術等方面進行投資，馬裡奧，您說您認為還有提高效率的額外空間。所以我只是想了解一點。

Mario, we cannot hear you. Your sound was muted.

馬裡奧，我們聽不到你說話。您的聲音已被靜音。

Okay. Here. I'm back. I'm back. So I just want to have a better understanding where that will come from. And my second question, Mario, has to do with the drop in your wholesale portfolio. Because if we exclude foreign exchange variation, I think that portfolio was 11% or 12%. That's a large number considering the interest rate landscape of 12%, 13%. I know that, that involves a little bit of allocation because you're allocating more capital to more profitable lines. But there was a very significant drop, and this is what drew my attention. I just want to understand whether you were anticipating some problems in some areas of the economy or whether you are concerned about some industry sectors and you want to reduce your presence?

好的。這裡。我回來了。我回來了。所以我只是想更了解這將從何而來。馬裡奧，我的第二個問題與您的批發投資組合的下降有關。因為如果我們排除外匯變化，我認為該投資組合的收益率是 11% 或 12%。考慮到 12%、13% 的利率水平，這是一個很大的數字。我知道，這涉及一點分配，因為您要將更多資本分配給更有利可圖的業務線。但出現了非常明顯的下降，這引起了我的注意。我只是想了解您是否預見到某些經濟領域會出現一些問題，或者您是否擔心某些行業部門並希望減少您的存在？

Those were excellent questions. So I'll answer them in the same sequence of your questions. You asked us about our efficiency agenda and looking at the expense side. I will comment on a few topics that are not new, but it's always nice to reinstate them. I earlier said that, I mean, how do we pursue that 20%? But a very important part of that means that we want to have gains in the cost to serve. We made some progress throughout the year. We will tell you more about the metrics. But in-house, in between our earnings release calls, we talk a lot about that.

這些都是非常好的問題。因此我將按照您提問的順序來回答。您詢問了我們的效率議程以及費用方面的情況。我將對一些並不新鮮的話題發表評論，但重新討論它們總是好的。我剛才說了，我的意思是，我們要如何追求那20%？但其中非常重要的一部分意味著我們希望在服務成本方面有所效益。我們全年取得了一些進展。我們將告訴您有關指標的更多資訊。但在公司內部，在收益發布電話會議期間，我們會多次討論這個問題。

The reduction in the cost to serve involves two things. The unit cost to serve, we have to drop that cost very quickly, especially in segments where the purchasing power is lower, that is mass retail. So the only way for us to have a more profitable segment, which is our mission, and that is not yet achieved in the mass retail. So the only way to do it is by reducing the cost to serve for clients. But there is also another agenda that involves managing nominal costs.

降低服務成本涉及兩件事。我們必須迅速降低服務的單位成本，特別是在購買力較低的領域，即大眾零售。因此，我們唯一的方法是獲得更有利可圖的細分市場，這是我們的使命，而這在大眾零售中尚未實現。因此，唯一的辦法就是降低客戶服務成本。但還有另一項議程涉及管理名義成本。

This nominal cost has some detractors, meaning we live in a country with inflation. I mean, exchange rate has improved, okay. But the average exchange rate will be higher than that of last year. And as with any large companies, we have expenditures in euros and US dollars. And we are expanding our operation in several fronts. I'm increasing our sales force with smaller companies, we call it companies one. We have my investment portfolio, which is AAA.

這種名目成本有一些缺點，這意味著我們生活在一個通貨膨脹的國家。我的意思是，匯率已經改善了，好吧。但平均匯率會比去年高。與任何大公司一樣，我們的支出以歐元和美元計算。我們正在多個方面擴大業務。我正在透過規模較小的公司來擴大我們的銷售隊伍，我們稱之為公司一。我們有我的投資組合，是 AAA。

So to combine all of these drivers that involve more expenses. Technology is one of them. We want to invest more in technology. I concluded my presentation talking about technology because technology is behind all of that and has an impact in every single number that we talk about here. So how do we manage that? We have to be very disciplined in terms of where we have to make reductions.

因此，將所有這些驅動因素結合起來會涉及更多費用。技術就是其中之一。我們希望在技術方面投入更多。我在演講結束時談到了技術，因為技術是這一切的背後支撐，並且對我們在這裡討論的每一個數字都有影響。那我們該如何解決這個問題呢？在決定削減哪些方面時，我們必須非常自律。

Mario, we do the self-funding of our own growth. I will just give you some examples of what we are doing. And the most obvious example has to do with the reduction of our brick-and-mortar stores. We are doing that in a very concrete way.

馬裡奧，我們透過自籌資金實現我們自身的發展。我僅向你們舉一些我們正在做的事情的例子。最明顯的例子就是我們實體店的減少。我們正在以非常具體的方式做到這一點。

In the last three years, I think we were able to reduce our network -- physical network by 30%. And if we look at 2025, I think by the end of the year, we will have reduced our physical network by another impressive amount. Is there any magic number? No, there is no magic number. But we want to, I mean, reduce that by like 1,000 stores. This is like the brick-and-mortar stores. We will get there. And in the meantime, we continue to challenge ourselves to arrive at an ideal number, not a number itself, but we want to have a number of stores that will just serve our clients the way they want it.

在過去三年中，我認為我們已經能夠將我們的網路（實體網路）減少 30%。如果我們展望 2025 年，我認為到今年年底，我們的實體網路規模將再次大幅縮減。有沒有什麼神奇的數字？不，沒有神奇的數字。但我的意思是，我們希望將門市數量減少 1,000 家左右。這就像實體店一樣。我們會到達那裡。同時，我們不斷挑戰自己，以達到一個理想的數字，不是數字本身，而是我們希望擁有一定數量的商店，能夠按照客戶想要的方式為他們提供服務。

I mean clients are less demanding in terms of going to the brick-and-mortar stores. We will have less stores, but smaller journeys will demand a lower number of calls. We will seek efficiencies coming from our remote channels. Our major sales channel is remote. We renamed it now, and it's called Pulse. We have 10,000 people there in the remote channel.

我的意思是，顧客對於去實體店的要求就沒那麼高了。我們的商店數量將會減少，但較短的行程將需要更少的呼叫次數。我們將尋求透過遠端管道提高效率。我們的主要銷售管道是遠端。我們現在將其重新命名，稱為 Pulse。我們在偏遠的通道裡有 10,000 人。

I'm not saying that we will cut that number to 5,000 out of 10,000, but we want to serve our clients better through that digital journey. That's why the digital first is important. We see the need of having a lower number of brick-and-mortar stores, and we want to increase the efficiency of our remote channels.

我並不是說我們會將這個數字從 10,000 人中削減到 5,000 人，但我們希望透過數位化旅程更好地為客戶服務。這就是為什麼數位優先如此重要。我們認為減少實體店數量的需求，並且我們希望提高遠端通路的效率。

A third path for efficiency is pricing journey. Once I reduce by almost 40%, the total number of products I have in my inventory by three years, that's something relevant. I said before that we have more than 300 cards, and we will end with 10, 12 cards in our offering. That's because we have some co-branding, some corporate cards.

提高效率的第三條途徑是定價之旅。一旦我將庫存中的產品總數減少近 40%，三年後，這將是一件有意義的事情。我之前說過，我們有 300 多張卡片，最終我們將提供 10 到 12 張卡片。這是因為我們有一些聯合品牌和一些公司卡。

So the simplification of cards also is a sign that we are simplifying the journey to our clients. They understand what we're selling better. We can simplify the offering into a very few products rather than hundreds of products and the processing track is lighter and cheaper, and it's much simpler to serve these clients in the after-sale channel.

因此，卡片的簡化也顯示我們正在簡化客戶的旅程。他們更了解我們銷售的產品。我們可以將產品簡化為極少數產品，而不是數百種產品，處理流程更輕鬆、更便宜，在售後通路為這些客戶提供服務也更簡單。

Certainly, we want to invest more in technology, more investments in new systems and in cloud, I mentioned OneApp that entitles a large investment, but we have to see where the funding will come so that the nominal cost should evolve as minimal as possible. The conceptual challenges, I mean, I don't have to evolve that BRL25 billion, that's a ballpark figure of our expenses.

當然，我們希望在技術上投入更多，在新系統和雲端運算上投入更多，我提到了 OneApp，它需要大量投資，但我們必須了解資金的來源，以便將名義成本降至最低。概念上的挑戰，我的意思是，我不需要發展出 250 億巴西雷亞爾，這是我們支出的大概數字。

Large companies. Yes, large companies was also part of the question. I mean, talking about one-on-one management to portfolio management, large corporates. There is a concern. No. Of course, we will monitor the corporate segment as a whole and look at the evolution of Selic, corporate, almost 100% of large corporate, they fund themselves with post fixed rates, and this increases the marginal cost of funding of the companies, and we look at that very closely.

大公司。是的，大公司也是問題的一部分。我的意思是，談論一對一管理到投資組合管理，大型企業。有一個擔憂。不。當然，我們將監控整個企業部門，並觀察 Selic 的發展情況，幾乎所有的大企業都使用固定利率進行融資，這增加了企業的邊際融資成本，我們會密切關注這一點。

The same way we did in the past. But now the bias is that we look at who is more leveraged if there is something to be done. And when there is a union, we are trying to talk to unions and have a more organized conversation with companies. The capital markets is still a major source, but a company that is high in debt, they will probably try to get new debentures or CRA in the market. But this exchange variation doesn't have anything to do with this marginal issue or Selic, et cetera.

就像我們過去所做的那樣。但現在的偏見是，如果有事要做，我們會看誰的槓桿率更高。當有工會時，我們會嘗試與工會對話，並與公司進行更有組織的對話。資本市場仍然是主要來源，但負債累累的公司可能會嘗試在市場上獲得新的債券或CRA。但這種匯率變化與這個邊際問題或 Selic 等沒有任何關係。

But I have to be more rigorous in terms of where I will allocate my capital. We have finite chips in terms of capital, CapEx, technology investments, people, why not. And all of these chips have to be allocated in a very disciplined and technical way.

但在資金配置方面我必須更加嚴格。我們在資本、資本支出、技術投資、人員方面的籌碼都是有限的，為什麼不呢？所有這些籌碼都必須以非常有紀律和技術性的方式進行分配。

Wholesale is a good business, certainly, that's where I came from. But given the fixed income capital, we have a very strong DCM. Given the strength of the capital markets, particularly the domestic one, we compete with different scale. So every large transaction, be it those that go to the market that I can put it in-house or bilateral ones, we try to see whether that loan pays off. Both in terms of the profitability and the cross-selling that comes with it.

批發確實是一門好生意，我就是從事批發業的。但考慮到固定收益資本，我們擁有非常強大的DCM。鑑於資本市場，特別是國內資本市場的實力，我們以不同的規模進行競爭。因此，對於每一筆大額交易，無論是進入市場進行的內部交易還是雙邊交易，我們都會嘗試看看這筆貸款是否有回報。無論是從盈利能力還是隨之而來的交叉銷售方面來說。

In fact, maybe I would say I would rather get the distribution fee, well, but the portfolio will go down. Okay, but I look at the relationship as a whole. I look at the ROE of the relationship and I look at the ROE of the whole business.

事實上，也許我會說我寧願獲得分銷費，但投資組合將會下降。好的，但我會從整體來看這段關係。我關注的是關係的 ROE，也關注的是整個業務的 ROE。

Our wholesale ROE is very good. And I don't want to compromise the ROE just because I just want to show you that I am growing the wholesale portfolio for the sake of growing. I mean, last year, I decided to grow 20% of the consumer finance portfolio with a very good ROE, which is helping us to recover.

我們的批發 ROE 非常好。我不想損害 ROE，因為我只是想向你們表明，我擴大批發投資組合是為了成長。我的意思是，去年我決定將消費金融投資組合成長 20%，並實現非常好的 ROE，這有助於我們的復甦。

So this discipline of allocating this finite chips with no restriction, neither capital or macro, but I have to see where I will allocate it and whatever it makes sense for us to allocate in the wholesale, we will do it. And we are growing exposure.

因此，這種分配有限晶片的原則沒有任何限制，無論是資本還是宏觀，但我必須知道我將把它分配到哪裡，只要它在批發中對我們有意義，我們就會這樣做。我們的曝光度正在不斷提高。

Thank you, Mario. Your answer were very clear. Thank you.

謝謝你，馬裡奧。你的回答非常清楚。謝謝。

Thiago Batista, UBS.

蒂亞戈·巴蒂斯塔，瑞銀。

Good morning, everyone. Congratulations on the results, very consistent results. I have one question about the private payroll loan on this new version, this new model that is being discussed. How do you see the potential for this market?

大家早安。祝賀結果，非常一致的結果。我對這個新版本、這個正在討論的新模式中的私人薪資貸款有一個疑問。您如何看待這個市場的潛力？

I know it needs some regulation. We haven't got details about the rules, but what the potential issues you see in this model? I know I'm only allowed one question, but I have a follow-up question regarding margin. You spoke about it. Gustavo mentioned that about 60% of the client NIM expansion was due to funding spread.

我知道這需要一些監管。我們還沒有得到有關規則的詳細信息，但您認為該模型存在哪些潛在問題？我知道我只能問一個問題，但我有一個關於保證金的後續問題。您談到了這一點。Gustavo 提到，客戶 NIM 擴張約 60% 是由於融資利差。

So in funding, funding was almost flat quarter-on-quarter. I think it increased 0.2%, 0.3% and the portfolio grew 3% in the quarter or close to 3%. So I want to understand this loan to total funding ratio, 93% to 96%, was this a onetime off in the quarter? This is a trend? And would this explain the 60% by NIM? And I'm sorry, I asked two questions, but one was a follow-up.

因此，在融資方面，融資額與上一季相比幾乎持平。我認為它增長了 0.2%、0.3%，並且本季度投資組合增長了 3% 或接近 3%。所以我想了解這個貸款與總融資比率，93％到96％，這是本季的一次性現象嗎？這是一種趨勢嗎？這能解釋 NIM 的 60% 嗎？很抱歉，我問了兩個問題，但其中一個是後續問題。

Do you want to start with the follow-up of the margin, I think it's worth detailing that.

您是否想從保證金的後續情況開始，我認為值得詳細說明這一點。

All right, NIM, there are two different blocks of growth in funding. One is the higher Selic. That's number one. And number two, the composition of funding is different. If we have a composition with more demand deposits, more retail, retail, the delta will appear. We have been talking a lot about this in our strategy. Our strategy is based on individuals and legal entities, the transactionality, transactional deposits. This combination gives rise to a delta plus the Selic.

好的，NIM，融資有兩個不同的成長區塊。一個是較高的塞利克。這是第一點。第二，資金組成不同。如果我們擁有更多的活期存款、更多的零售、零售的組合，那麼就會出現增量。我們在戰略中已經多次討論過這個問題。我們的策略是基於個人和法人實體、交易性、交易存款。這種組合產生了 delta 和 Selic。

So that was in Q4 and dynamic. Our goal is to continue with this dynamic. Our dynamic is to continue to expand individual segment, quickly expand transactionality so that we have more and more deltas compared to the overall cost of funding and share of that in client NIM. If Brazil has liquidity, if individuals have liquidity and we get more transactionality, this trajectory will persist. And this is how we are working. We are less concerned about growing volume.

那是在第四季度，而且是動態的。我們的目標是繼續保持這種活力。我們的動力是繼續擴大個人細分市場，快速擴大交易性，以便與整體融資成本和客戶 NIM 份額相比，我們有越來越多的增量。如果巴西有流動性，如果個人有流動性，並且我們獲得更多交易性，那麼這種軌跡將會持續下去。這就是我們的工作方式。我們不太擔心銷量的成長。

We are more focused on quality of volume. As you saw, we increased the credit notes in the quarter because we have fewer credit notes, there was a market demand. The credit NII for these issuances were really good, given the demand.

我們更加重視數量的品質。正如您所看到的，我們在本季度增加了信用票據，因為我們的信用票據較少，市場需求較大。考慮到需求，這些發行的信用 NII 確實很好。

This is an instrument that has no reserve requirement. And in the composition of the whole liability and funding, it makes sense. And that's what we are looking at. We can grow. It might be a little flat. But overall, it needs to be positive from the standpoint of NII. And that's how we will go about in the next quarters based on transactionality and relationship between individuals and legal entities. I'll speak briefly about the payroll loans.

這是一種沒有準備金要求的工具。而且在整個負債和資金的組成上，也是合理的。這正是我們所關注的。我們可以成長。它可能有點平。但總體而言，從NII的角度來看，它需要是正面的。這就是我們在接下來的幾個季度中根據交易和個人與法人實體之間的關係採取的行動。我將簡單談談薪資貸款。

In a nutshell, there's a big potential to give you some big numbers. Private payroll loans in the whole market accounts for about BRL40 billion, BRL670 billion, which is the size of payroll loans in the market. So INSS, public payroll loans have much bigger numbers. Of the BRL40 billion, we have 30%. So we and another player have basically 2/3 of the market, given our presence in payroll, which is a big part of the franchise and will continue to be. So it's BRL12 billion.

簡而言之，它很有可能會為你帶來一些巨大的數字。整個市場中私人薪資貸款約佔400億雷亞爾，6,700億雷亞爾，這是市場上薪資貸款的規模。因此，INSS 公共薪資貸款的數字要大得多。在400億巴西雷亞爾中，我們佔有30%。因此，考慮到我們在薪資方面的作用，我們和另一名球員基本上佔據了 2/3 的市場份額，而薪資是球隊的重要組成部分，並將繼續如此。所以是120億巴西雷亞爾。

In our BRL71 billion payroll loan portfolio, it's a small part. We like it. and we have been entertaining more of that given the caps and so on and so forth. It has a gigantic potential. So my view is with this new E config as the government is calling it, has the potential of unlocking a huge volume and value. It is a concession, but it is a better concession with better guarantees when we link the payroll loan, we separated from the payroll itself.

在我們 710 億巴西雷亞爾的薪資貸款組合中，這只是一小部分。我們喜歡它。並且考慮到上限等等，我們也對此更加感興趣。它具有巨大的潛力。因此，我的觀點是，政府所稱的這種新 E 配置有可能釋放出龐大的數量和價值。這是一種讓步，但當我們將工資貸款與工資本身分開時，這是一種更好的讓步，有更好的保障。

Of course, the employer remains an important element. But that loss of credit, which increases a lot when a client leaves one job and moves to another job. We've had low PLL, but PLL will increase for us and for the whole market when the client leaves an employer.

當然，雇主仍然是重要因素。但是，當客戶離開一份工作並轉到另一份工作時，信用損失會大大增加。我們的 PLL 一直很低，但當客戶離開雇主時，我們和整個市場的 PLL 都會增加。

The cost of risk tends to be reduced. Competitiveness will increase, but it will increase in a much bigger pie. In the meeting with the government last week, and this was very much talked about in the media, we said and I said that I imagine 4 times or 5 times the current size was not an exaggerated estimate. It will not happen in December, but it will happen in the next couple of years. You asked about challenges. There are a number of challenges regarding systems connections.

風險成本趨於降低。競爭力將會增強，但這種增強將發生在更大的市場中。在上週與政府的會議上，媒體對此事進行了廣泛討論，我們和我說，我認為目前規模的 4 倍或 5 倍並不是一個誇張的估計。這不會在 12 月發生，但會在未來幾年內發生。您詢問了挑戰。系統連接方面存在許多挑戰。

There is a centralization in the government systems because that's where we have the information of E-social, but it's a direction that makes sense. We at Santander embrace this. I believe that FEBRABAN, the Federation of banks embraces this. This is an evolution for the market. It's not a marginal product. It's a product we are going to be talking a lot about in the coming years. It's very positive that the government is addressing that. The government is calling private and state-owned banks to embrace this. So we're very optimistic about the e-consignado.

政府系統是集中化的，因為我們在那裡擁有電子社交訊息，但這是一個有意義的方向。我們桑坦德銀行對此表示贊同。我相信，銀行聯合會 (FEBRABAN) 會接受這一點。這是市場的一個演變。這不是一個邊際產品。這是我們在未來幾年將會廣泛討論的產品。政府正在解決這個問題，這是非常積極的。政府呼籲私人銀行和國有銀行接受這項措施。因此，我們對電子簽名非常樂觀。

Yuri Fernandes, JPMorgan.

摩根大通的尤里費南德斯。

Hello, good morning, Mario, Gustavo. Thank you. Congratulations not only on the earnings, but also on the deliverables and client primacy. There is a lot of speech about this, but we are looking at all metrics. Most of my questions have been asked and answered. I'd like to explore quality of portfolio. We have seen more concern. There's food inflation. People are getting a little worried about what could happen in terms of delinquency default over 2025.

你好，早安，馬裡奧，古斯塔沃。謝謝。我們不僅對盈利表示祝賀，而且對交付成果和客戶至上表示祝賀。關於這一點的討論很多，但我們正在關注所有指標。我的大部分問題都已提出並得到解答。我想探索投資組合的品質。我們看到了更多的擔憂。有食品通膨。人們開始有點擔心 2025 年拖欠債務的情況。

Of course, there is a lag. Things are not immediate, but I would like to hear your take on this. Also your individuals number. Normally, we have 15 days to 90 days overdue tends to improve. And I think that it increased marginally 10 basis points. But I would like to understand if this slight worsening in 15 to 90 days is a onetime off or is it a trend of worsening?

當然，存在滯後。事情還沒有立即發生，但我想聽聽你對此的看法。還有您的個人號碼。通常情況下，我們有15天到90天的逾期趨勢會改善。我認為它略微增加了 10 個基點。但我想了解的是，這種 15 到 90 天內的輕微惡化是一次性現象還是惡化趨勢？

Yuri. I'll be very brief, and then I'll turn the floor to Gustavo. Thank you for participating. The last but not the least important question. You always have good questions. So some questions ago, I mentioned that this debate, I'm immune or I'm not immune. It is impossible to say that a bank operating with capital and with loans is immune. Even those that do not operate with credit are not immune to the macroeconomic environment.

尤里。我的發言會非常簡短，然後我會把發言權交給古斯塔沃。感謝您的參與。最後但並非最不重要的問題。你總是能提出好問題。所以在幾個問題之前，我提到了這場爭論，我是否免疫。不可能說一家靠資本運作、靠貸款運作的銀行能夠免受其害。即使那些不依賴信貸經營的企業也無法免受宏觀經濟環境的影響。

And there are points of sensitivity in the whole balance sheet associated to the macroeconomic environment. It's a good thing we know about this. We acknowledge that it's BAU, business as usual in managing a bank. But the fact that the macroeconomic scenario is more difficult and more challenging, that makes us adopt more measures rather than fewer measures. So to say that we were going to grant loans the same way that we did six months ago, Well, it's not going to be the same. But we have been preparing the bank, and we talked about this in Q3. I said we should grow some percentage points less than what we predicted as an industry. I said that in the Q&A.

且整個資產負債表中存在與宏觀經濟環境相關的敏感點。我們知道這一點是件好事。我們承認這是 BAU，即銀行管理的正常業務。但宏觀經濟情勢更加困難，挑戰更大，這使得我們採取更多措施，而不是減少措施。所以說，我們將以與六個月前相同的方式發放貸款，但事實已經不一樣了。但我們一直在為銀行做準備，我們在第三季討論過這個問題。我說我們的成長應該比我們預測的產業成長低幾個百分點。我在問答中說過這一點。

And then all of the other peers are reviewing and suggesting that they are going to grow less. There's a suggestion of growing the portfolio as a whole in high single digits. I think that this is going to be revisited along the year.

然後所有其他同行都在審查並建議他們將減少成長。有建議稱，整個投資組合將以高個位數成長。我認為這一問題將會在今年再次被重新審視。

Again, we'll try to bring results without needing to grow the balance sheet a lot. But marginal grant loans is not going to be the same if the macroeconomic is not the same. So we're going to be more constructive with the macroeconomic environment, which is more challenging. Gustavo, perhaps you can mention where you're focusing on individuals that have less to do with the rate itself. but they have to do more with inflation, with food inflation, with disposable income, which is very relevant. And for legal entities, that's a hybrid of the two.

再次強調，我們將努力在不需要大幅增加資產負債表的情況下取得成果。但如果宏觀經濟不一樣，邊際補助貸款也不會一樣。因此，我們將以更具建設性的態度對待更具挑戰性的宏觀經濟環境。古斯塔沃，也許你可以提一下，你關注的那些與利率本身關係不大的個人，但他們與通貨膨脹、食品通貨膨脹、可支配收入有更大的關係，這些都非常重要。對法人實體來說，這是兩者的混合體。

Yuri, let me stress what I mentioned before. We are very comfortable with the performance of our portfolio. And we have been adjusting the portfolios on a weekly basis when needed. So regarding the 15- to 90-day past due, we did adjustments in September.

尤里，讓我強調一下我之前提到的事。我們對我們的投資組合的表現非常滿意。而我們每週都會根據需要調整投資組合。因此，對於 15 至 90 天的逾期問題，我們在 9 月進行了調整。

In the last months, of the quarter in some clusters, and I'm talking about individuals here. We saw a performance which was not adequate. So all of the adjustments have been made. Now looking forward, which is not in 15 days to 90 days, if we see some detachment, and it can happen. It's way too early. The inflation effect is not 100% felt, but we'll follow the same routine we followed in recent years, particularly in the last four months of 2024.

在本季度的最後幾個月裡，在一些集群中，我在這裡談論的是個人。我們觀賞了一場不盡人意的表演。因此，所有調整均已完成。現在展望未來，這不是 15 天到 90 天的事，如果我們看到一些分離，它就有可能發生。現在還太早了。通貨膨脹的影響不會 100% 顯現，但我們會遵循近年來相同的慣例，特別是在 2024 年的最後四個月。

I'm not so worried about 15 day to 90 day past due. This can be a reflection of adjustments already made. And we have to see how the population will perform. So nothing changes in terms of the dynamics. And that's why I affirm and I state again that we have peace of mind with our individuals portfolio and consumer finance that can be more susceptible to a different scenario in 2025.

我不太擔心逾期 15 天到 90 天的情況。這可以反映已經做出的調整。我們必須觀察民眾的表現。因此從動態角度來看沒有任何變化。這就是為什麼我再次確認，我們對個人投資組合和消費金融感到安心，因為 2025 年它們可能會更容易受到不同情況的影響。

So the adjustments have been made. We made adjustments in the last 4 months. If necessary, we'll make more adjustments and always with the same discipline. This variation in 15 days to 90 days past due does not worry me, but we have to look at the performance in 2025. And the same applies to legal entities. They have a different sensitivity. inflation does count, but there is more effect of the interest rates. And just last week, we made a lot of adjustments.

因此做出了調整。我們在過去的四個月裡做出了調整。如果有必要，我們會做出更多調整，但始終遵循相同的紀律。這種逾期 15 天到 90 天的變化並不讓我擔心，但我們必須看看 2025 年的表現。這同樣適用於法人實體。它們有不同的敏感度。通貨膨脹確實重要，但利率的影響更大。就在上週，我們做了許多調整。

It's BAU. And Gustavo mentioned the weekly review. It applies to legal entities as well. And whenever we need to do so, we'll cut loans, although we want to double our business in legal entities. But this cannot be a decision that I execute in a linear fashion every day without looking at what's happening in the macro environment. Gustavo mentioned agribusiness.

是 BAU。古斯塔沃提到了每週回顧。它也適用於法人實體。儘管我們希望將法人實體業務翻一番，但只要有需要，我們就會削減貸款。但我不能不考慮宏觀環境發生的情況，每天以線性方式執行這個決定。古斯塔沃提到了農業綜合企業。

We're going to have a better agribusiness here, but it will not be as good as it was until 2023. You know that our agribusiness portfolio last year kind of stayed stable, having doubled in 2023. So we'll look at the portfolio and the margins, and we'll share this with you, we can speak more about that in the upcoming Q&As. Will it be the same as it was six months ago? No. We believe that we have to have a well-balanced portfolio to feel less any deterioration of the macroeconomic environment.

我們這裡的農業綜合企業將會更好，但要到 2023 年才會恢復到以前的水準。您知道，我們去年的農業綜合企業投資組合保持穩定，到 2023 年翻了一番。因此，我們將研究投資組合和利潤率，並與您分享，我們可以在接下來的問答中詳細討論這些內容。它會和六個月前一樣嗎？不。我們認為，我們必須擁有一個均衡的投資組合，才能盡量減少宏觀經濟環境惡化的影響。

Any adjustments in marginal loan granting, that's a daily decision. And we'll make these decisions as we have done from September to December of last year. We have marginal cuts and if needed, we'll continue to do so with a view of optimizing what we have in our portfolio, almost BRL700 billion in the expanded portfolio, and we'll continue deriving value from the existing portfolio, and we'll continue to grow the margin.

邊際貸款發放的任何調整都是每天的決定。我們將按照去年 9 月至 12 月所做的那樣做出這些決定。我們進行了小幅削減，如果需要，我們將繼續這樣做，以優化我們的投資組合，擴大後的投資組合中有近 7000 億巴西雷亞爾，我們將繼續從現有投資組合中獲取價值，我們將繼續提高利潤率。

Thank you. Very clear. Thank you very much.

謝謝。非常清楚。非常感謝。

With that, we end the Q&A session. I would like to thank you all for joining us this morning. And immediately after this video conference, myself and the entire Santander Brasil Investor Relations team will be available to answer any questions you might have. Thank you very much. Have a great day, and I'll see you next time. Thank you very much.

問答環節就此結束。我要感謝大家今天早上的參加。本次視訊會議結束後，我本人和整個桑坦德巴西投資者關係團隊將立即回答大家的任何問題。非常感謝。祝您有愉快的一天，下次再見。非常感謝。