Banco Bradesco SA (BBDO) 2024 Q4 法說會逐字稿

Hello. Good morning. I am Marcelo Noronha. I am here live from Cidade de Deus to present the results from the fourth-quarter 2024 of Bradesco and (inaudible) this also (inaudible) the whole-year results for 2024.

你好。早安.我是馬塞洛·諾羅尼亞。我在這裡從 Cidade de Deus 現場直播 Bradesco 2024 年第四季度的業績以及（聽不清楚）這也是（聽不清楚）2024 年全年業績。

I would like to say that we will split our presentation in three parts with three initial messages for all of you. First, the results for the fourth quarter reinstate our profitability improvement just the same way as we presented a year ago here when we presented the plan in this same month of last year when we started our growth plan and I showed you what was going to happen step by step, quarter on quarter.

我想說的是，我們的演講將分成三個部分，向大家傳達三個初始訊息。首先，第四季度的業績重申了我們的盈利能力改善，就像我們一年前在這裡提出的一樣，當時我們去年同一個月啟動了增長計劃，我向你們展示了將要逐步發生的情況，每個季度都會發生。

The second message is that our guidance for 2025 is a more cautious guidance in terms of risk appetite and this also includes the effects of 4,966 and higher stake at Cielo. It is cautious vis-a-vis the macro scenario and at the same time is very optimistic in terms of what we are delivering and what we are currently doing.

第二個訊息是，我們對 2025 年的指引在風險偏好方面是更謹慎的指引，這也包括 4,966 及 Cielo 更高股份的影響。我們對宏觀形勢持謹慎態度，同時對我們正在實現的目標和正在做的事情感到非常樂觀。

Also, there is our transformation plan. So it is my duty to present to you a small summary of what we did in 2024. We continue to expedite our transformation and we made a decision based on a better macro scenario, more cautious scenario. We decided to invest in our transformation without stopping anything else because here, we have efficiency gains, increase of the activities, and everything else that we are about to see.

另外，還有我們的轉型計畫。因此，我有責任向大家簡要介紹我們在 2024 年所做的事情。我們繼續加快轉型，並根據更好的宏觀情況、更謹慎的情況做出了決定。我們決定在不停止其他任何工作的情況下投資我們的轉型，因為在這裡，我們的效率得到了提高，活動得到了增加，以及我們將要看到的其他一切。

Now it's precisely 10:32. I will start our presentation with the results that have been posted earlier this morning. Our net income is BRL5.4 billion, growth of 37%, and BRL19.6 billion in 2024, meaning 20% growth. And how did we achieve this net income and this result? This net income was boosted by our revenues mostly, but also due to the fact that we're very cautious with our expenses despite the investments we've made.

現在正是 10 點 32 分。我將從今天早上發布的結果開始我們的演講。我們的淨收入為54億雷亞爾，成長37%，2024年將達到196億雷亞爾，成長20%。我們是如何實現這個淨收入和這個業績的？這筆淨收入主要得益於我們的收入，但也因為儘管我們進行了大量投資，但我們對開支仍然非常謹慎。

So now I'll show you our position and our status in terms of credit, fee income, insurance company, and so on and so forth. I have here some highlights. These are operating highlights, and this summarizes our balance sheet. But before I begin, I would like to say that our recurring net income allowed us to make a non-recurring provision, and the net effect is about BRL440 million. And this is precisely because we wanted to boost our footprint review for 2025.

現在我將向您展示我們在信用、費用收入、保險公司等方面的地位和狀況。我在此列出一些亮點。這些都是營運亮點，也是我們資產負債表的總結。但在開始之前，我想說一下，我們的經常性淨收入使我們能夠做出非經常性撥備，淨效應約為 4.4 億巴西雷亞爾。這正是因為我們希望加快 2025 年的足跡評估。

So what are the highlights? Well, our total loan portfolio grew despite the review of our footprint in 1,233 points, way beyond what we anticipated. Our customer base grew by more than 2 million clients. 99% of our transactions are occurring through the digital channels. That was the case in 2024. And this helps us throughout our transformation in terms of the cost to serve. I would like to highlight our Bradesco Expresso platform. Last year, we delivered two new platforms and the outcome of that was better a customer experience of those clients that use Bradesco Expresso. Secondly, there was also an improved experience from our correspondents. And this is the outcome. We grew payroll. We increased 49% insurance sales. We also increased our base of correspondents by almost 1,000, reaching 39.1 thousand bank correspondents.

那麼，亮點是什麼？儘管我們的足跡已覆蓋 1,233 個點，但我們的總貸款組合仍然增長，遠遠超出了我們的預期。我們的客戶群成長了200多萬客戶。我們的99％交易都是透過數位管道進行的。2024 年的情況就是如此。這有助於我們在整個轉型過程中降低服務成本。我想重點介紹一下我們的 Bradesco Expresso 平台。去年，我們推出了兩個新平台，結果是改善了使用 Bradesco Expresso 的客戶的客戶體驗。其次，我們的記者的體驗也有所改善。這就是結果。我們增加了工資。我們的保險銷售額成長了49%。我們的代理行數量也增加了近 1,000 個，總代理行數量達到 39,100 個。

Our BAM grew AUM, assets under management, reaching BRL122 billion. We were the recipient of two awards by InfoMoney. We provide the best customer experience in our business process. This is what I said in terms of the wholesale and retail bank. I already talked about our net income. And transformation is occurring at a very accelerated pace, I'll elaborate more on that. And we also had two inorganic events. We concluded the closing of Cielo's capital. We also had the acquisition of 50% of John Deere after we got the approval from the Central Bank and CADE.

我們的 BAM 擴大了 AUM（管理資產規模），達到 1,220 億巴西雷亞爾。我們獲得了 InfoMoney 頒發的兩個獎項。我們在業務流程中提供最佳的客戶體驗。這就是我從批發和零售銀行的角度講的。我已經談到了我們的淨收入。轉變正在以非常快的速度發生，我將對此進行更詳細的闡述。我們還舉辦了兩場無機活動。我們完成了Cielo資本的關閉。在獲得央行和CADE的批准後，我們也收購了約翰迪爾50%的股份。

This is a picture of our Bradesco Expresso aisle and this is just a picture I have for you because this is another test that we are testing new models with our Bradesco Expresso and this is occurring in several different municipalities of the country.

這是我們 Bradesco Expresso 貨架的圖片，這只是我為您準備的圖片，因為這是另一項測試，我們正在使用 Bradesco Expresso 測試新型號，這項測試在該國的幾個不同城市進行。

And then we go to total revenue which boosted the growth of our net income. Our revenue was over BRL32 billion. We grew 7.9% year on year in almost all lines of revenues. NII was up by 5.4% year on year. Fee and commissions income grew by 7.9% year on year. And our insurance company grew more than 16.6% year on year with a recurring net income that was quite relevant in another full quarter. So from the third quarter, our total revenue was BRL30.6 billion, reaching 32.3%, growing by 5.4% in the quarter in terms of revenues. And this is happening thanks to the traction we have at the bank in all of our business lines and associated companies.

然後我們來看看總收入，這促進了我們的淨收入的成長。我們的收入超過320億雷亞爾。我們幾乎所有的收入都較去年同期成長了7.9%。NII年增5.4%。手續費及佣金收入較去年同期成長7.9%。我們的保險公司年增超過 16.6％，並且經常性淨收入在另一個完整季度中也相當可觀。從第三季開始，我們的總營收為 306 億雷亞爾，成長 32.3%，本季營收成長了 5.4%。這是得益於我們銀行在所有業務線和關聯公司中的良好表現。

Another important lever that boosts revenue. Even in a presentation, I think we should do the opposite. We should start with the leverages and then arrive at the final number. But we started with the net income. So our total loan portfolio reached more than BRL980 billion, growing almost 12% year on year. And the average daily production posted impressive growth. I highlighted here the growth of individuals with 13.3%, and I'll give you more details in a few moments of some of the lines. And also, we grew micro-, small-, and medium-sized companies and this portfolio grew 28% during the period. And the highlight goes not only to middle market, but also small businesses. And I will elaborate further on the risk part of it.

另一個增加收入的重要槓桿。即使在演示中，我認為我們也應該採取相反的做法。我們應該從槓桿率開始，然後得出最終的數字。但我們是從淨收入開始的。因此，我們的貸款總額達到超過 9,800 億雷亞爾，年增近 12%。日均產量實現了令人矚目的成長。我在這裡重點介紹了 13.3% 的個人成長情況，稍後我將為您提供有關某些內容的更多詳細資訊。此外，我們還發展了微型、小型和中型公司，該投資組合在此期間增長了 28%。而且重點不僅放在中型市場，也放在小型企業。我將進一步闡述其風險部分。

So if we break down the portfolio, we see here individuals on the left-hand side, companies and corporate on the right-hand side. If you look at all the segments in every period, very seldom we will find a period with no growth.

因此，如果我們分解投資組合，我們會看到左側是個人，右側是公司和企業。如果你觀察每個時期的所有部分，我們很少會發現沒有成長的時期。

And now I would like to draw your attention to a few items that matter to us. In the case of credit cards, our year-on-year growth was 5.1%,, but the major growth lever to reach that 5% was high income because high income posted growth of 14.5%. So I would like to highlight how cautious we are in terms of risk-adjusted returns. And we were very mindful in terms of the quality and generation of our assets with new credit models, new policies, and also process organization. And our payroll loans grew by 5.8%. It could have grown more with the cap. This doesn't help, but I would like to say that anyhow, our attraction is quite relevant in this regard.

現在我想提請大家注意一些對我們很重要的事。就信用卡而言，我們的年成長率為 5.1%，但達到這 5% 的主要成長槓桿是高收入，因為高收入的成長率為 14.5%。因此我想強調一下我們在風險調整回報方面是多麼謹慎。我們非常注重資產的品質和生成，採用新的信貸模式、新的政策以及流程組織。我們的薪資貸款增加了5.8%。有了上限，它本來可以長得更高。這並沒有什麼幫助，但我想說，無論如何，我們的吸引力在這方面是相當相關的。

Both banks that have government control, they are market leaders in payroll deductible loans with 15% or 20% market share. But being a private bank, Bradesco has 14.3% of share in payroll deductible loan for public and private payroll deductible loans.

兩家銀行均受政府控制，是工資扣除貸款市場的領導者，市佔率分別達到 15% 或 20%。但作為一家私人銀行，Bradesco 在公共和私人工資扣除貸款中佔有 14.3% 的份額。

On the right-hand side, we have corporate or company. We are [now] growing 28% in high risk portfolios. We have our feet on the ground. So if we look at the total publication and look at our working capital, we went from BRL130 billion to BRL147 billion. And precisely, this coincides with our generation of FGI, FGO, ProNEP both in middle market and also small business. In middle business, we're growing slightly above that. This is a combined growth. But in terms of small-sized companies, our growth reached almost 20% when it comes to companies. We're very careful in terms of our growth in real estate loan and collateralized loans. And in large corporate, we are using our origination for distribution portfolio optimizing our capital and our return from clients.

在右側，我們有企業或公司。我們[現在]的高風險投資組合成長了28%。我們腳踏實地。因此，如果我們查看總出版物並查看我們的營運資本，我們的收入從 1300 億雷亞爾增加到了 1470 億雷亞爾。恰恰相反，這與我們在中端市場和小型企業中推出的 FGI、FGO、ProNEP 相吻合。在中型企業中，我們的成長速度略高於這個數字。這是一種共同的增長。但就小型公司而言，我們的公司成長率接近20％。我們對房地產貸款和抵押貸款的成長非常謹慎。在大型公司中，我們利用我們的分銷組合來優化我們的資本和來自客戶的回報。

So all of these are good news. And if you allow me to say, we need three combinations in order to deliver numbers like that. The first combination is having a very sound customer base in all customer segments and high penetration in the base. If we didn't have that, we wouldn't be able to deliver it. And secondly, commercial attraction with a very well-orchestrated process in the physical and the digital world. And the third pillar is our credit business unit. It brought us new credit models with a lot of machine learning, improving everyday, measuring our risk appetite and our portfolio pricing so that we have the right numbers for every segment and every audience. This has to be very well-tuned because if we are totally integrated, we can certainly deliver what we are delivering today with portfolios with controlled risk.

所以所有這些都是好消息。如果你允許我這麼說的話，我們需要三種組合才能得出這樣的數字。第一個組合是在所有客戶群中擁有非常健全的客戶基礎，並且在客戶基礎中具有很高的滲透率。如果我們沒有這個，我們就無法實現它。其次，商業吸引力是在物理世界和數位世界中透過非常精心策劃的過程形成的。第三個支柱是我們的信貸業務部門。它為我們帶來了新的信用模型，其中包含大量機器學習，每天都在改進，衡量我們的風險偏好和投資組合定價，以便我們為每個細分市場和每個受眾提供正確的數據。這必須進行非常好的調整，因為如果我們完全整合，我們肯定能夠透過可控風險的投資組合來實現我們今天所交付的成果。

Well, here, I have another piece of information and that is that we certainly regulate our risk appetite the entire time. And when we saw that we were heading towards a more regulated policy, we look at that in the fourth quarter. We're not thinking about 2025. But we did that beforehand. And this other chart down below shows that 54% of our portfolio is secured in a very dynamic way. We are looking at several other periods. But I'm talking about the portfolio. If we were to show the production or everything that is coming in, this KPI would be much higher. And this really shows the quality of what we are delivering in our margins. And that's why we are not delivering a very high margin. We are delivering controlled portfolios. But even then, every quarter, we posted growth in absolute terms.

好吧，這裡我還有另一個訊息，那就是我們肯定會一直調節我們的風險偏好。當我們看到我們正走向更規範的政策時，我們會在第四季度研究這一點。我們沒有考慮2025年。但我們事先已經這麼做了。下面的另一張圖表顯示，我們的 54% 的投資組合是以非常動態的方式獲得保障的。我們正在研究其他幾個時期。但我談論的是投資組合。如果我們展示產量或所有進來的東西，這個 KPI 會高得多。這確實顯示了我們的利潤所提供的產品的品質。這就是我們利潤不高的原因。我們正在提供受控的投資組合。但即便如此，每季我們的絕對值仍然有所成長。

In terms of client NII, our NII was 5.4% year on year. I can comment on the guidance later on. Our market NII was BRL440 million this quarter. I would like to highlight trading, but the good operation of our treasury team is responsible for that. And then we have the growth of client NII. And this is reflected in this item that we've been talking to you about which is the client NII net of provisions which has to do with the bottom line. And this impact in our growth of BRL8.7 billion, 77% year on year. And when we look at the entire year, almost 26%, 25.8%. And we continue on the same pace, envisioning growth despite a more cautious scenario.

在客戶NII方面，我們的NII年增5.4％。我可以稍後對該指導發表評論。本季度，我們的市場 NII 為 4.4 億巴西雷亞爾。我想強調交易，但我們財務團隊的良好運作也功不可沒。然後，我們看到客戶 NII 的成長。這反映在我們與您討論的這個專案中，即與底線有關的客戶 NII 撥備淨額。這對我們的成長產生了 87 億雷亞爾的影響，年增 77%。如果我們看全年的話，幾乎是26%、25.8%。儘管情況更加謹慎，但我們仍預計未來仍將保持同樣的步伐。

So the message here is that we continue to control our portfolios. We are reducing over 90% delinquency with a very good coverage ratio in all of the KPIs, in all of the individuals. Expanded loan loss provisions, I would like to draw your attention that in this fourth quarter was BRL7.5 billion, increasing by BRL400 million, but the same cost of credit that we are indicating of 3%. And certainly here, again, you can look at mass market. This is due to everything I told you before, I mean, controlled portfolio and we are investing in clients that give us an adequate RAR. And I can also give you more details later on about some aspects related to product and share.

因此，這裡的訊息是，我們將繼續控制我們的投資組合。我們正在將逾 90% 的犯罪率降低，並且所有 KPI 和所有個人的覆蓋率都達到了非常好的水平。擴大貸款損失準備金，我想提請大家注意，第四季度的貸款損失準備金為 75 億雷亞爾，增加了 4 億雷亞爾，但信貸成本與我們預測的 3% 相同。當然，在這裡您可以再次看看大眾市場。這是因為我之前告訴過你一切，我的意思是，控制投資組合，我們正在投資那些給我們足夠 RAR 的客戶。稍後我還可以為您提供有關產品和分享相關方面的更多詳細資訊。

Another important item has to do with our fee and commissions income. Why is it growing? It grows because of traction, because of the level of activities that we have in the entire organization. BRL10.3 billion year on year, 13.7% and 7.6%. And these numbers do not consider that additional share from Cielo that we acquired. But here, you can maybe draw the same conclusion, we are growing in all aspects and in almost all the periods, as you can tell from the slide. But this is certainly a consequence from the high activities that we are involved.

另一項重要內容與我們的費用及佣金收入有關。它為什麼會成長？它的成長是因為牽引力，是因為我們整個組織的活動量。年增13.7%至103億雷亞爾，成長7.6%。這些數字還沒有考慮我們從 Cielo 收購的額外份額。但在這裡，你也許可以得出同樣的結論，正如你從幻燈片中看到的那樣，我們在各個方面、幾乎所有時期都在成長。但這確實是我們參與高強度活動的結果。

But now, here, I'm bringing the number that I mentioned at the beginning when we reviewed our footprint. We went way beyond our expectations with 1,385, I would say, reviews and the ending of some POSs. But even then, we were able to grow our customer base by over 2 million customers. Year-on-year expenses is here. But we have to do some important reconciliation. Well, if I remove in fee income the additional share from Cielo, this growth would reach 7.5% year on year and 8.1% for the entire period.

但現在，我在這裡帶來我們在一開始回顧我們的足跡時提到的數字。我想說，我們獲得了 1,385 條評論，並且結束了一些 POS，這遠遠超出了我們的預期。但即便如此，我們的客戶群仍增加了 200 多萬名客戶。年比支出在這裡。但我們必須做一些重要的和解。好吧，如果我從費用收入中去除來自 Cielo 的額外份額，那麼這一增長率將達到同比增長 7.5%，整個期間的增長率將達到 8.1%。

But let's look at another indicator that we have here. I think I've been bringing this for the last three quarters. The total number of expenses -- the total amount of expenses of 9.3%. But once we exclude Elopar and Cielo from this number, the growth was 6.9%. I mean Cielo is delivering new solutions, and this will allow us to increase our share at SMEs and large corporate, Livelo, Alelo, and the Elo banner. We are investing to grow the business even with very good returns. However, we do not have the daily management operation. I mean we are approving investments and expenses so when we exclude that, expenses are absolutely under control, as you can tell from these other indicators.

但讓我們看看這裡的另一個指標。我想過去三個季度以來我一直在堅持這一點。費用總額－費用總額的9.3%。但一旦我們將 Elopar 和 Cielo 從這個數字中剔除，成長率就是 6.9%。我的意思是 Cielo 正在提供新的解決方案，這將使我們能夠增加在中小型企業和大型企業、Livelo、Alelo 和 Elo 品牌中的份額。即使回報非常好，我們仍在投資以發展業務。但是，我們沒有日常的管理運作。我的意思是我們正在批准投資和支出，因此當我們排除這些時，支出絕對處於控制之中，正如您可以從這些其他指標中看到的那樣。

And I would like to remind you of two other details. Number one, we are in this transformation path which is very robust with a lot of CapEx investment, but there is also OpEx as part of the story. And second of all, not only we're doing that, I mean we're making things happen, but the insurance company is also investing in CapEx and OpEx. And this helps these areas of the bank to grow as well. Therefore, my conclusion is that all of our expenses are under control in all of the lines that we can look at.

我還想提醒大家另外兩個細節。首先，我們正處於轉型道路上，這條道路非常強勁，有大量的資本支出投資，但營運支出也是其中的一部分。其次，我們不僅在這樣做，我的意思是我們正在讓事情發生，而且保險公司也在投資資本支出和營運支出。這也有助於銀行這些領域的發展。因此，我的結論是，我們所能看到的所有方面的開支都在控制之中。

And now looking at the consolidated numbers, there is one or two deviations. But we can talk about that when we talk about the guidance. Now I'm talking about the insurance business, another quarter of good results. If you look at total revenue, BRL121 billion. That's why we posted 13.6% growth. Net income was BRL2.5 billion, BRL9.1 billion in the year, with an ROAE of 21%. So the insurance business is well on track. When we look at the insurance operation in the guidance, we see the performance quarter on quarter posting growth.

現在來看合併數字，有一兩個偏差。但是當我們討論指導時我們可以談論這個問題。現在我要說的是保險業務，又一個季度的業績表現良好。如果你看總收入，那就是1210億巴西雷亞爾。這就是我們實現13.6%成長的原因。淨收入為25億雷亞爾，當年為91億雷亞爾，ROAE為21％。因此保險業務進展順利。當我們查看指引中的保險業務時，我們看到業績逐季成長。

And I would like to draw your attention to technical provisions that went beyond BRL400 billion with almost 12% growth and the same thing goes for the insurance company, meaning that the insurance business is well on track with distribution in different lines in all of our customer segments inside the bank and also in our external channels which are operated by the insurance.

我想提請大家注意技術準備金，該準備金超過 4000 億雷亞爾，增長了近 12％，保險公司也取得了同樣的進展，這意味著保險業務進展順利，在銀行內部所有客戶群以及保險公司運營的外部渠道中，保險業務都分佈在不同領域。

We had capital index. We have a mark-to-market, we ended the year of 2024 with 12.4%. And at the turn of the year, January 1, we applied for a 966, achieving 12.8% of capital already considering the 20 basis points required by the Central Bank for the system in operating risks. Here, we have dividends and IOC and their dynamic. In 2024, we see the number. And I'd like to remind you, we have a share buyback program which is open and it will stretch until May 7, 2025. And as part of the program, we had a buyback of about 50 million shares and we announced that we're going to have the cancellation of this stock close to 1% of the bank. Just for your information.

我們有資本指數。我們有一個以市價計算的匯率，到 2024 年底，我們的匯率為 12.4%。而在年初，也就是 1 月 1 日，我們申請了 966 資本，考慮到央行對系統操作風險要求的 20 個基點，已經達到了 12.8% 的資本。這裡有股息和 IOC 以及它們的動態。2024年，我們將看到這個數字。我想提醒大家，我們有一個股票回購計劃，目前開放，有效期至 2025 年 5 月 7 日。作為該計劃的一部分，我們回購了約 5,000 萬股股票，並宣布將註銷接近該銀行 1% 的股票。僅供您參考。

Here we have the guidance for 2024 and we started giving you this complementary information of (inaudible) net of provisions, almost like an informal guidance. It increased to BRL34 billion. And that's what matters, it's the bottom line. Instead of us discussing where I make more of a margin and where I make less of a margin. So here, we have total NII, minus the cost of risk, and we had a good delivery.

這裡我們有 2024 年的指導，我們開始向您提供（聽不清）撥備淨額的補充信息，幾乎就像一份非正式的指導。增至340億雷亞爾。這才是最重要的，這是底線。我們不再討論哪裡我的利潤更多，哪裡我的利潤更少。因此，在這裡，我們有總 NII 減去風險成本，並且我們獲得了良好的交付效果。

In NII net of provisions, we did very well. Our expanded loan loss provisions are close to the top of the guidance. Fee and commission income close to the top of the guidance. Operating expenses close to the top of the guidance. But with those observations I made regarding consolidations that we have and the result of the insurance operation, just like we said, close to the top of the guidance, 7.5%.

在扣除撥備後的 NII 淨額中，我們表現非常出色。我們擴大的貸款損失準備金已接近指導最高水準。手續費及佣金收入接近指引上限。營業費用接近預期最高水準。但根據我對我們現有的合併和保險業務結果的觀察，正如我們所說的，接近預期最高水平，即 7.5%。

So now, we'll talk about a quick balance about our transformation. I'll try to be brief. Of course, I cannot mention all of the indicators because we have a lot of information. Among the initiatives, I would like to have the organizational highlights. You will remember, we reduced layers, reviewed standard control, we hired C levels, made some changes in the leadership team, we put together our transformation office with 800 people or more, and it's doing really well. Management, culture, we have been working in management and culture. We did some surveys with high level of engagement.

現在，我們來討論一下我們的轉型中的快速平衡。我會盡量簡短地講。當然，我無法提及所有指標，因為我們有很多資訊。在這些舉措中，我想重點介紹一下組織方面的亮點。你會記得，我們​​減少了層級，審查了標準控制，我們聘請了 C 級高管，對領導團隊做出了一些變動，我們組建了擁有 800 多人的轉型辦公室，而且進展非常順利。管理、文化，我們一直在做管理和文化的工作。我們做了一些參與度很高的調查。

And we launched some messages together with our team which is what we want to see in our day to day in our business and management model. So we are talking about much more contemporary management. We have Sou Bradesco, I am Bradesco. We are here for clients. We're much more focused on the clients with all of the transformation we had in products. Adjusting, modifying these departments in the organization. We have an empowered team with the processes of enterprise agility. We have been decentralizing decisions, making our team effectively participate in deciding fast so that we have a faster time to market and faster deliverables.

我們與團隊一起發布了一些訊息，這正是我們希望在日常業務和管理模式中看到的內容。因此，我們討論的是更現代的管理。我們有 Sou Bradesco，我是 Bradesco。我們在這裡為客戶服務。隨著產品不斷轉型，我們更加重視客戶。調整、修改組織內的這些部門。我們擁有一支具備企業敏捷流程的授權團隊。我們一直在分散決策權，讓我們的團隊有效地快速參與決策，以便我們能夠更快地將產品推向市場並更快地交付成果。

We are challenge oriented. What does this mean? The best example is the transformation, how bold we are to put together this kind of large plan, a billionaire plan. And we are touching all points of the organization. This is a big challenge. But we are sure of our deliveries because we have a lot of deliveries already of the several initiatives we've adopted.

我們以挑戰為導向。這意味著什麼？最好的例子就是轉型，我們是多麼大膽才能製定這種大計劃，一個億萬富翁計劃。我們正在觸及該組織的各個方面。這是一個巨大的挑戰。但我們對交付成果很有信心，因為我們已經實施了許多措施。

Digital, retail, service model evolution. We delivered a new experience in all segments, in our app, with increased NPS. And you can see that we're following and we will deliver a totally new experience, not just for the segment, but for all segments. You will see this. There will be more news on the year. But here in this set of clients, we have been working with our GenAI BIA with 90% resolution. I will speak more about this when I talk about technology, so I'll come back to this, okay? Bear with me.

數位化、零售、服務模式的演進。我們在應用程式的各個部分都提供了新的體驗，並提高了 NPS。你們可以看到，我們正在遵循這項原則，並將提供全新的體驗，不只是針對該細分市場，而是針對所有細分市場。您會看到這一點。今年還會有更多新聞。但在這組客戶中，我們一直在使用解析度為 90% 的 GenAI BIA。當我談論技術時，我會更多地談論這一點，所以我會回到這個問題，好嗎？請忍耐一下。

So we have BIA with AI. And we have a decision tree which is transactional. It is working really well. But now, we're implementing GenAI BIA. We have better NBO models with intensive AI use and hyper-personalization with the consequences you can see at the bottom. And we will show you this year, because we're already delivering this value proposition, but we are going to show the market what we're building here, what we are delivering.

因此，我們有一個帶有 AI 的 BIA。我們有一個事務性的決策樹。它確實運行得很好。但現在，我們正在實施 GenAI BIA。我們有更好的 NBO 模型，它大量使用 AI 並具有超個性化，您可以在底部看到其後果。我們今年將向您展示，因為我們已經在提供這個價值主張，但我們將向市場展示我們在這裡正在建立什麼，我們正在提供什麼。

Some of the highlights of Principal launched in November '24. We have about 50,000 clients. And we are starting to expand in Payments and Synergies, new cash management products, and the synergy with Cielo. Again, Cielo has been investing so we have the deliverable tap on phone. And up here, some important highlights for SMEs. We launched this segment after we presented our plan with 122 branches dedicated to enterprises. We ended the year with 150. We're growing really well. We have big traction here. Middle corporate is doing really well. We have more platforms and more RMs. And the consequence is the increase of market share gain. In the wholesale, we also launched the Agro segment so that we seize this opportunity with our John Deere Bank, big partner.

以下是 24 年 11 月推出的 Principal 的一些亮點。我們有大約50,000名客戶。我們開始擴展支付和協同效應、新的現金管理產品以及與 Cielo 的協同效應。再次，Cielo 一直在進行投資，因此我們可以透過手機實現交付。以下是一些針對中小企業的重要亮點。在我們提出設立 122 家企業分公司的計畫後，我們就推出了這個部門。我們以 150 人結束了這一年。我們發展得非常好。我們在這裡有很大的吸引力。中型企業表現確實很好。我們擁有更多的平台和更多的RM。其結果就是市場佔有率的增加。在批發方面，我們也推出了農產品業務，以便與我們的大合作夥伴約翰迪爾銀行一起抓住這一機會。

Our credit business unit has been making a huge difference for us with its implementation and with the creation of the portfolio management department. We have intensive use of conglomerate data, improving our modeling. We hired almost 200 professionals over the year. And we improved our credit policy and processes. We have intensive use of machine learning. And here in the red box, we have the consequences. The portfolio grew because we have commercial traction and penetration in our client base; market share gain in SMEs and individuals; Over90 fold dropping; and with the new vintages of mass market with much better vintages compared to the pre-pandemic period.

我們的信貸業務部門的實施和投資組合管理部門的成立為我們帶來了巨大的變化。我們大量使用集團數據來改進我們的建模。我們今年僱用了近200名專業人員。我們也改善了信貸政策和流程。我們大量使用機器學習。這裡，紅色框裡顯示的是我們得到的後果。投資組合之所以成長，是因為我們在客戶群中擁有商業吸引力和滲透力；中小企業和個人的市場佔有率增加；超過90倍下降；與疫情之前相比，大眾市場上新推出的年份葡萄酒品質要好得多。

Okay. So now, let's speak a little about technology, about tech modernization. Here, our team led by Francesco, the executive we hired with an active participation of his colleagues in the management. We have enterprise agility. We ended the year with another 500 squads. And we're scaling up in 2025. We have a dedicated team of more than 10,000 people. We are in a process of strong internalization with very senior people. We continue to migrate several applications to the cloud that reached 79%. And I spoke about GenAI when I was speaking about digital mass market, right?

好的。現在，我們來談談科技、科技現代化。在這裡，我們的團隊由我們聘請的高階主管 Francesco 領導，他的管理同事也積極參與。我們擁有企業敏捷性。我們以另外 500 個小隊結束了這一年。我們將在 2025 年擴大規模。我們擁有一支超過 10,000 人的專業團隊。我們正與資深人才進行強而有力的內部化。我們繼續將幾個應用程式遷移到雲端，這一比例已達到 79%。當我談論數位大眾市場時，我談到了 GenAI，對嗎？

Well, GenAI BIA, we have been testing with more than 14,000 internal employees. 580 clients are using it. In the last few months of 2024, more than 2 million interactions happened with that level of resolution of 90%, as I mentioned. And now we're going to improve even further and we're going to scale it up, offering a completely new experience for clients.

嗯，GenAI BIA，我們已經與超過 14,000 名內部員工進行了測試。 580 個客戶正在使用它。正如我所提到的，在 2024 年的最後幾個月中，發生了超過 200 萬次互動，解決率達到 90%。現在我們將進一步改進，擴大規模，為客戶提供全新的體驗。

BIA Tech. It's called BIA Tech. But actually, it is an internal application we have with significant efficiency gain and productivity gain in developing the stories for every new or legacy application we have. So basically what's happening, BIA Tech is learning to adjust the stories. BIA does that instead of having humans doing that. It learns. There's some organizations that work really well with this. But BIA also writes the stories.

BIA 科技它被稱為 BIA Tech。但實際上，它是我們的一個內部應用程序，在為我們的每個新應用程式或舊應用程式開發故事時，它都具有顯著的效率和生產力提升。所以基本上正在發生的事情是，BIA Tech 正在學習調整故事。BIA 可以取代人類來做這件事。它學習。有些組織在這方面做得非常好。但 BIA 也撰寫了這個故事。

We are one of the world's pioneers in the world in the use of multi-agents with generative AI in order to modernize applications and legacy systems and to create models. So what does that mean in two big modules that we are working, and we are working strongly on that.

我們是世界上使用多智能體和生成式人工智慧來實現應用程式和遺留系統現代化以及創建模型的先驅之一。那麼，這對我們正在研究的兩個大模組意味著什麼？

I have a squad which is a multidisciplinary team, people, developers, UX, for example. So in the place of a developer, you're going to have an AI, multi-agents for products, for UX, and so on and so forth, with an ability to scale up significantly our business. And to expedite our process of delivering systems and modernization of systems, we acquired 100% of Kunumi. Kunumi is a company from Minas linked to the academia with more than 50 PhDs, a differentiated team. They have been working a lot to solve problems for problem solving through machine learning, AI, with the credit department, with the collections department, with data intelligence, and other systems areas. And we gain 90% productivity in addition to the implementation of value assurance to improve our efficiency and to avoid wasting with contracts and duplications.

我有一個由多學科團隊組成的團隊，例如，人員、開發人員、使用者體驗 (UX)。因此，作為開發人員，您將擁有人工智慧、用於產品的多代理、用於用戶體驗等，並能夠顯著擴大我們的業務。為了加快我們交付系統和系統現代化的進程，我們收購了 Kunumi 100% 的股份。Kunumi 是一家來自米納斯、與學術界有聯繫的公司，擁有 50 多名博士，是一支差異化的團隊。他們一直在努力透過機器學習、人工智慧、信貸部門、收款部門、資料智慧和其他系統領域解決問題。我們除了實施價值保證以提高效率並避免合約和重複造成的浪費之外，還獲得了 90% 的生產力。

And here, we're going to look at the next steps coming to the end of the presentation. In terms of efficiency, we continue to review our footprint, as I mentioned, to evolve our culture. With Principal, we'll get to 500,000 clients. And next year, we will complete the expansion with more than 800,000 clients. In credit, we have all of these processes that we are investing in strongly. We will continue to internalize technology resources, accelerating enterprise agility. And with all this productivity gain coming from tech, as I mentioned, we're increasing tech deliveries and technical output in 2025 by 50% (inaudible). This is very gratifying because we have this conviction. And it is happening. We are very satisfied with what we are delivering.

這裡，我們將討論演示結束前的後續步驟。在效率方面，正如我所提到的，我們會繼續審查我們的足跡，以發展我們的文化。有了 Principal，我們將擁有 50 萬名客戶。明年，我們將完成客戶數超過80萬的擴張。在信貸方面，我們對所有這些流程都進行了大力投資。我們將持續內部化技術資源，加速企業敏捷性。正如我之前提到的，隨著科技帶來所有這些生產力的提高，到 2025 年，我們的技術交付和技術產出將增加 50%（聽不清楚）。這是非常令人欣慰的，因為我們有這個信念。而這正在發生。我們對所交付的產品非常滿意。

And here's the guidance for 2025 you probably saw in our earnings and in our material fact that we released today. We had a scenario of the (inaudible) survey that would give us 9%, 10% of portfolio growth. But I told the sell side as well as the buy side in the past quarter that we're working with two scenarios. One scenario that we considered, a base scenario of 70% and a more cautious scenario with 30%. And that's what we are working with. We want to be cautious. Because we think that with the contraction and the monetary policy and with interest rates we have today, of course, there is an economic impact.

您可能在我們的收益和我們今天發布的實質事實中看到了以下 2025 年的指引。我們有一個（聽不清楚）調查場景，它將為我們的投資組合帶來 9% 到 10% 的成長。但在上個季度，我告訴賣方和買方，我們正在考慮兩種情況。我們考慮的一種情境是，基本情境為 70%，更為謹慎的情境為 30%。這正是我們正在做的工作。我們希望保持謹慎。因為我們認為，我們今天的收縮、貨幣政策和利率當然會對經濟產生影響。

But our NII net of provisions is growing even more. Why is it growing more? Because we have to carry over for 2025. And the rest doesn't actually require a lot of comments regarding the rest of the guidance.

但我們的NII淨撥備還在進一步成長。為什麼它成長得更多？因為我們必須延續到2025年。其餘部分實際上不需要對指導的其餘部分進行太多評論。

Candidly speaking, I am very much optimistic regarding everything we are doing and less optimistic about the macroeconomic scenario, but we might have surprises. I'm more optimistic in our guidance from the middle top than from the middle down. I can envision a more positive scenario, and this is the summary. We continue to grow profitability in a solid and safe way given mainly by revenues given our traction. We continue to have a lot of traction around the bank. And we will accelerate the change of the bank.

坦白說，我對我們所做的一切都非常樂觀，對宏觀經濟形勢不太樂觀，但我們可能會遇到意外。我對我們從中高層所做的指導比從中層向下做出的指導更為樂觀。我可以想像一個更積極的情況，這就是總結。我們持續以穩健、安全的方式提高獲利能力，這主要得益於我們強勁的營收動能。我們繼續在銀行領域保持強大的影響力。我們將加速銀行的變革。

I'd like to thank you for your attention, for your time. And I'd like now to invite you to the question-and- answer session. We have [Andre Oliveira] and Cassiano Scarpelli, whom you know. And we are here to start the Q&A.

我想感謝您的關注和時間。現在我想邀請你們參加問答環節。我們有 [Andre Oliveira] 和 Cassiano Scarpelli，你們認識他們。現在我們開始問答環節。

Thank you, Marcelo. Thank you, Cassiano. It's a pleasure to be here with you. Good morning. I'd like to inform you that Ivan Gontijo, CEO of the Insurance Group, will be joining us remotely online.

謝謝你，馬塞洛。謝謝你，卡西亞諾。我很高興和你們在一起。早安.我想通知大家，保險集團執行長 Ivan Gontijo 將以遠端方式加入我們。

(Operator Instructions) Bernardo Guttman, XP Investimentos.

（操作員指示）Bernardo Guttman，XP Investimentos。

Good morning, Andre, Noronha, Cassiano. Thank you for taking my question. I have one question about the market NII. You had a good performance of your treasury department in Q4, again, with arbitration as well. Any specific change in the hedge policy of the bank? How should we think about market NII dynamic for 2025 considering a high interest rate, select rate?

早安，安德烈、諾隆尼亞、卡西亞諾。感謝您回答我的問題。我有一個關於市場 NII 的問題。你們的財務部門在第四季的表現同樣出色，仲裁也同樣出色。銀行的對沖政策有什麼具體變化嗎？考慮到高利率和選擇利率，我們應該如何看待 2025 年的市場 NII 動態？

Thank you, Bernardo. I'll ask Cassiano to start answering your question, and I'll make a comment.

謝謝你，貝爾納多。我會讓卡西亞諾開始回答你的問題，然後我會發表評論。

Good morning, Bernardo. Good to see you and happy New Year. Well, in this quarter, the surprise was the arbitration and the main gain was this. Although we don't have a specific hedge operation of ALM, we do a lot of operations for hedging in some circumstances. But indeed, in this quarter, Q4, arbitration was super important in some specific operations where we got good movement. I do not think that this is a traditional movement for next year -- for 2025, actually. In 2025, we think we should be more cautious. We work with an NII close to a neutrality.

早安，貝爾納多。很高興見到你，新年快樂。嗯，這個季度的驚喜是仲裁，主要的收穫是這個。雖然我們沒有專門針對ALM的對沖操作，但在某些情況下我們會做很多對沖操作。但事實上，在本季度，即第四季度，仲裁在我們取得良好進展的一些具體操作中發揮了極其重要的作用。我不認為這是明年——實際上，是 2025 年——的傳統運動。到2025年，我們認為我們應該更加謹慎。我們與接近中立的國家資訊基礎設施 (NII) 合作。

Bernardo, I think that there are some additional comments to make. In this guidance, we are being indeed more conservative, as Cassiano mentioned. But you see, in some months of 2024, we made money, as was the case of the last quarter, with trading. Of course, this is also going to happen in 2025. You might say, oh, but if you gain 6 and lose 6, there's neutrality. Yes, but the scenario might be a little better. We are on the cautious side. I can only have more positive expectations than worst expectations.

貝納多，我認為還有一些補充意見。正如卡西亞諾所提到的，在這項指導方針中，我們確實更加保守。但你看，在 2024 年的某些月份，我們透過交易賺了錢，就像上個季度的情況一樣。當然，這也將在2025年發生。您可能會說，哦，但是如果您獲得 6 並且失去 6，那麼就是中立的。是的，但是情況可能會更好一些。我們採取了謹慎的態度。我只能有比最壞預期更多的正面預期。

And my second comment is that we have lessons learned. We have a good team coordinated by Roberto Paris with Marina, Bruno, and now, Luis Felipe, who is responsible for trading. So I think that we might have an even better year.

我的第二個評論是，我們已經吸取了教訓。我們擁有一支優秀的團隊，由羅伯托·帕里斯 (Roberto Paris) 與瑪麗娜 (Marina)、布魯諾 (Bruno) 以及現在負責交易的路易斯·菲利佩 (Luis Felipe) 協調。所以我認為我們今年可能會更好。

Gustavo Schroden, Citibank.

花旗銀行的古斯塔沃‧施羅登 (Gustavo Schroden)。

Good morning, Marcelo, Cassiano, Andre. It's very nice to talk to you again. Congratulations on your transformation process. I think Marcelo, in a very summarized way, conveyed a lot of it. But I would like to talk about the structural part of the bank that refers to capital. When we look at CET1 at 10.9%, slightly below the average among your peers, and I understand that it's slightly above the minimum requirement. But we noticed some reclassification and transformations that were made. There is an explanatory note that refers to a reclassification of securities available for sale to maintenance or healthy maturity. And then when we look at the OCI line or other encompassing results, we see another quarter with negative results. I mean, accumulated losses that do not impact the result, but they do have an impact on the capital part. So how comfortable the bank is? Or what is the bank's strategy to have that CET capital returned to a higher level? And I just want to understand how comfortable you are vis-a-vis that capital. As you said yourself, Marcelo, your growth guidance is a very conservative goal, it ranges from 4% to 8%, but with a better macro landscape, maybe this portfolio growth range should be more at the top of this range. So this is something interesting for us to hear from you.

早安，馬塞洛、卡西亞諾、安德烈。很高興再次與您交談。恭喜你的轉變過程。我認為馬塞洛以一種非常概括的方式傳達了很多內容。但我想談談銀行的結構部分，即資本。當我們看到 CET1 為 10.9% 時，略低於同齡人的平均水平，但據我了解，它略高於最低要求。但我們注意到進行了一些重新分類和轉變。有一個解釋性說明，指的是將可供出售證券重新分類為維持或健康到期日。然後，當我們查看 OCI 線或其他綜合結果時，我們會看到另一個季度出現負面結果。我的意思是，累積損失不會影響結果，但會對資本部分產生影響。那麼銀行有多舒服呢？或者說銀行有什麼策略讓CET資本回到更高的水平？我只是想了解您對那筆資本的接受程度。正如您自己所說，馬塞洛，您的成長指引是一個非常保守的目標，範圍在 4% 到 8% 之間，但如果宏觀環境更好，也許這個投資組合的成長範圍應該更接近這個範圍的上限。因此，我們很高興聽到您說的這些事情。

Thank you, Gustavo. I would also ask my colleagues to comment as well. We are very comfortable with our capital. You saw that we now reached 12.8% after 4,966. The CET1 has a huge buffer because I think it goes up to 8%, if I'm not mistaken. The fact is that we are not concerned with that. And we said that from the very beginning because we ran several projections. Stress scenario, optimistic scenario. Therefore, we do have room to grow with stability in terms of our capital. Therefore, I have no concern at all in terms of everything that we can do. And we will continue to increase profitability and increase our net income. And our CET will be higher with time.

謝謝你，古斯塔沃。我也希望我的同事能夠提出評論。我們對我們的資本非常滿意。您會看到，我們現在已達到 4,966 後的 12.8%。CET1 有一個巨大的緩衝，因為如果我沒記錯的話，我認為它會上升到 8%。事實上我們並不關心這個。我們從一開始就這麼說，因為我們進行了幾次預測。壓力情景，樂觀情景。因此，我們的資本確實有穩定的成長空間。因此，對於我們能做的一切，我毫不擔心。我們將繼續提高獲利能力並增加淨收入。而且我們的 CET 將會隨著時間的推移而提高。

Well, Gustavo, good morning. It's good to talk to you again. It's very important that we bear in mind that our guidance or our projection has to do with the two ends of the guidance. We are very comfortable in terms of our capital as a whole. I mean, you saw all of the moves basically that reflects the adjustment of our balance sheet to the 4,966. We had 0.4% drop in the quarter until December 31, 2024, which is mark-to-market. And 4,966 on January 1 brings that capital back to 2.8%, meaning being 10.9% at the end of the year.

好吧，古斯塔沃，早安。很高興再次與您交談。我們必須牢記，我們的指導或預測與指導的兩端有關。就整體資本而言，我們感到非常滿意。我的意思是，您看到的所有舉措基本上都反映了我們的資產負債表向 4,966 的調整。截至 2024 年 12 月 31 日的季度中，以市價計算，我們的利潤下降了 0.4%。而 1 月 1 日的 4,966 則使該資本回到 2.8%，意味著年底為 10.9%。

And then that contemplates three important components. We have 0.7% related to adjusted adjustments to shareholders equity to adjust to the criteria from the Central Bank. They have the minimum regulatory aspect as part of the rule. And we're pretty much in line. We just made adjustments to the Central Bank and that was 0.27%. But as you know that was split into four installments. The Central Bank released the regulation, so we have 0.07% which is the negative impact. The other negative impact is 0.20% which refers to operating result. This is the operating result that impacted now. And then on the other hand, we have a reversal.

然後考慮三個重要組成部分。我們有 0.7% 與股東權益的調整有關，以適應中央銀行的標準。它們將最低限度的監管方面作為規則的一部分。我們基本上都排成隊伍了。我們剛剛對中央銀行進行了調整，調整幅度為0.27%。但正如你所知，它被分成了四個部分。央行發布了這個規定，所以我們有0.07%的負面影響。其餘負面影響為0.20%，涉及經營績效。這是現在受到影響的經營業績。另一方面，我們又出現了逆轉。

But in practice, that means the adjustment to the different types of mark-to-market in our balance sheet, I mean, available for sale and negotiation levels and a new criteria of business models, they are classified according to the business model of every security.

但在實踐中，這意味著要調整我們資產負債表中不同類型的市價，我的意思是，可供出售和談判水平以及新的商業模式標準，它們根據每種證券的商業模式進行分類。

So once you put everything together, we arrive at 12.8% which is higher than 12.7% from the previous quarter. But more than that, when we look at our projection, we look at all the possibilities of our net income. We have enough capital to fit into the range of our guidance. So in terms of capital, it will be stable this year even with the full payment of IOC and growing the loan portfolio close to the ceiling of our guidance.

所以，把所有數據綜合起來，我們得到的結果是 12.8%，高於上一季的 12.7%。但更重要的是，當我們考慮我們的預測時，我們會考慮淨收入的所有可能性。我們有足夠的資本來適應我們的指導範圍。因此，就資本而言，即使全額支付 IOC 並將貸款組合成長至接近我們指導上限，今年的資本仍將保持穩定。

Daniel Vaz, J. Safra.

丹尼爾·瓦茲、J.薩夫拉。

Good morning, Andre. Good morning, Marcelo and Cassiano. And thank you for the opportunity of asking a question. I would like to revisit the guidance aspect because you said that you were being more conservative. In fact, when you look at the portfolio and when we highlight the NII net of provisions, maybe it doesn't grow so much when we look at the range, but you lowered a bit the comparison base when you look at 2024. But 2025 is more conservative and ProNEP and et cetera, so the spread should be lower. And so according to our reading, it means that your provisions are probably lower. Is this the way we should look at it? Is there anything you would like to highlight in terms of provisions or whether it's not at the right level today? Or you think that provisions are more collateralized? I just want to hear your comments.

早安，安德烈。早安，馬塞洛和卡西亞諾。感謝您給我提問的機會。我想重新審視指導方面，因為您說您更加保守。實際上，當你查看投資組合併強調 NII 撥備淨額時，從範圍來看，它可能不會增長那麼多，但從 2024 年來看，比較基數會略有降低。但是 2025 年更加保守，並且是 ProNEP 等等，因此利差應該會更低。所以根據我們的解讀，這意味著您的準備金可能較低。我們應該這樣看待這個問題嗎？您想強調的是，在規定方面還是目前的程度不正確？還是您認為撥備更有保障？我只是想聽聽你的評論。

Thank you, Daniel, and thank you for your question.

謝謝你，丹尼爾，謝謝你的提問。

What I have to say is that we will continue to grow. Also, our gross margin will grow as well. As I said, we have the carryover to 2025 of everything we produce and we piled up, we accumulated. But if you look at the cost of credit or the cost of risk, our expectation is to keep cost of risk around 3%. This is our expectation.

我要說的是，我們將繼續成長。此外，我們的毛利率也會成長。正如我所說的，我們生產、堆積和累積的所有產品都將結轉到 2025 年。但如果你看看信貸成本或風險成本，我們預期風險成本將維持在 3% 左右。這是我們的期望。

We are very comfortable with everything we're doing in relation to credit. But then if we look at the mixed composition in 2024, let me say the following. I talked about payroll deductible loan market share. If you look at the growth on the individual side, we grew in payroll loans. We have a higher share with 14.3% among private banks, but this also has to do with NII and sometimes we don't even look at it.

我們對與信貸相關的所有工作都感到非常滿意。但如果我們看看 2024 年的混合組成，我會說以下幾點。我談到了工資扣除貸款的市場份額。如果從個人角度看成長，我們的薪資貸款也有所成長。在私人銀行中，我們的份額較高，為 14.3%，但這也與 NII 有關，有時我們甚至不會關注它。

I'm not only referring to Bradesco but our peers as well. I mean, there was an INSS cap but also in terms of the public companies throughout this period with the increase in interest rates and the long tail, the long part, every month we'd settle a lot of money. That was hired in previous years, previous periods with twice as much margin and then you hired new payroll loans at a lower margin, and this puts pressure on the gross margin, but there is a good risk adjusted return or RAR.

我不僅指布拉德斯科銀行，也指我們的同行。我的意思是，存在一個 INSS 上限，但就上市公司而言，在此期間，隨著利率的上升和長尾效應，長期來看，我們每個月都會結算大量資金。這是前幾期以兩倍的利潤率僱用的，然後你以較低的利潤率僱用了新的工資貸款，這給毛利率帶來了壓力，但風險調整後的回報或 RAR 不錯。

The second thing for individuals is credit card. With our feet in the ground and the major growth leverage came from high income individuals which grew 14.5% year on year and combined growth was 5%. The third aspect is that if you look at our publication and look at it in detail, you see that our personal loan also grew, but we grew in two very safe lines. It's not the most stressed person.

對個人來說，第二件事就是信用卡。我們腳踏實地，主要的成長槓桿來自高收入人群，其年成長率為 14.5%，綜合成長率為 5%。第三個方面是，如果你看一下我們的出版物並仔細查看，你會發現我們的個人貸款也有所增長，但我們是在兩條非常安全的線上增長的。這不是壓力最大的人。

The first is that we grew with higher income clients. We charge them lower rates, otherwise, the selection would be averse so it's a good risk from prime clients that have specific needs, so the credit line is a bit elongated. And then we have other credit lines with FGTS, secured loans that the margins are lower in 2024. But then when we look at corporate companies, our growth is focused on collateralized portfolios, particularly based on programs like FGI where you take several different sizes of companies up to [BRL300 million] FGO contemplates, I mean BRL400 million a year for credit for companies up to BRL360 million a year and then what happened here?

首先，我們隨著客戶收入的提高而成長。我們向他們收取較低的利率，否則，選擇就會不利，因此對於具有特定需求的優質客戶來說，這是一個很好的風險，因此信用額度會有點延長。然後，我們與 FGTS 還有其他信貸額度，即 2024 年利潤率較低的擔保貸款。但是，當我們看企業公司時，我們的成長集中在抵押投資組合上，特別是基於像 FGI 這樣的計劃，其中你可以將幾家不同規模的公司納入其中，最高可達 [3 億雷亞爾] FGO 考慮，我的意思是每年為公司提供 4 億雷亞爾的信貸，最高可達 3.6 億雷亞爾，然後這裡發生了什麼？

Just to be totally transparent, and you can look at the ranking, you can look at that periodically. I mean in 2024, Bradesco had the highest traction. Therefore, we grew around 70%. I'm talking about production when compared to 2023 we grew BRL17 billion, give or take. Once you combine all the programs and with FGI alone, we were the second largest producer of FGI in the Brazilian market. There was a bank that produced more than us until December 31, 2024. I'm looking at the full year.

為了完全透明，您可以查看排名，可以定期查看。我的意思是，到 2024 年，Bradesco 的吸引力最大。因此，我們的增長了約70％。我說的是產量，與 2023 年相比，我們的產量增加了 170 億巴西雷亞爾，大約是如此。一旦將所有項目結合起來，僅 FGI 一項，我們就是巴西市場第二大 FGI 生產商。有一家銀行截至 2024 年 12 月 31 日的產值比我們多。我正在看全年的情況。

On the other hand, when we look at FGO being procredit, another organization was not that one -- was number one, and we came second, very close to number one. And then when we look at the global and total production here, Bradesco had 18.5% share of production in these programs. So the RAR is really phenomenal, and this is very good for clients and companies. It's a very good government program. They are managed in part by the BNDS and the Brazil with funds. There are several rules involved, so 18.5% of the production came from Bradesco, and there is a bank that was slightly above us.

另一方面，當我們看 FGO 的 procredit 時，另一個組織不是那個——而是第一，而我們排在第二，非常接近第一。然後，當我們查看全球總產量時，Bradesco 在這些項目中佔有 18.5% 的產量。所以 RAR 確實很驚人，這對客戶和公司來說都非常有利。這是一個非常好的政府計劃。它們部分由巴西公債殖利率曲線和巴西儲備基金管理。其中涉及幾條規則，因此 18.5% 的產量來自 Bradesco，還有一家銀行略高於我們。

And the third bank has about 5% lower share when compared to us in terms of production. Therefore, we also grew at SMEs boosted by portfolios. They were secured and collateralized, especially this one which has smaller spreads. Rural loans also collateralized and secured, real estate loans, it's -- or mortgage loans is collateralized and our NTV is about 52%, 51%, 52%. Therefore, this is a given reality and that's my conclusion.

而第三家銀行的產量與我們相比，份額低了約 5%。因此，我們也透過投資組合在中小企業中實現了成長。它們是有擔保和抵押的，特別是這個，利差更小。農村貸款也有抵押和擔保，房地產貸款，或抵押貸款是有抵押的，我們的 NTV 約為 52%、51%、52%。因此，這是既定的現實，也是我的結論。

It will not reduce the spread. I mean, I expect to see better margins with a controlled cost of credit. So when I look at the level of activity -- because life is very dynamic, it's already February. So the level of activity is here -- I mean, therefore I think that our guidance is very cautious because we are looking at the macro scenario. I mean the rates are high, more for companies than individuals. There are a group of individuals that have a more difficult time to access credit, but the scenario is here. So I don't see dropping margins. All I see is growth.

這不會減少傳播。我的意思是，我希望在信貸成本受控的情況下看到更好的利潤率。因此，當我觀察活動量時——因為生活非常活躍，現在已經是二月了。所以活動水平就在這裡——我的意思是，因此我認為我們的指導非常謹慎，因為我們正在研究宏觀情景。我的意思是，公司的費率比個人的費率高。有一群人獲得信貸更加困難，但情況就是這樣的。因此我不認為利潤率會下降。我看到的只有成長。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Daniel, in this guidance, it's already implicit that client NII grows more than the portfolio. The portfolio is end to end and client is just an average. So just this average comparison already gives us about 8% of growth for client NII that reaches two digits once we add the efficiency measures and funding and the funding side. And on top of that, Marcelo just mentioned better spreads that can also help us to increase client NII throughout 2025. So yeah, cost of risk is about 3% and this is pretty much around what Marcelo just said.

丹尼爾，在本指南中，已經隱含地表明客戶 NII 的成長速度超過了投資組合的成長速度。投資組合是端到端的，客戶只是一個平均值。因此，僅透過這個平均比較，我們已經看到客戶 NII 的成長約為 8%，一旦我們添加效率措施和資金以及融資方面，這個數字就會達到兩位數。除此之外，馬塞洛剛才提到了更好的利差，這也可以幫助我們在 2025 年增加客戶的 NII。是的，風險成本約為 3%，這與馬塞洛剛才所說的差不多。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Thiago Batista, UBS.

瑞銀的蒂亞戈·巴蒂斯塔。

Good morning. I have a question about the several digital channels or digital brands. Do you have a strategy to address these channels considering the new change the bank is adopting. And a follow-up about capital. Is the bank capital with 10.9% of core capital? Is there any kind of restructuring or being IOC or something like that? Is this in the radar of the bank when we look at the next 12 to 18 months looking for it?

早安.我對幾個數位管道或數位品牌有疑問。考慮到銀行正在採取的新變化，您是否有針對這些管道的策略？以及關於資本的後續問題。銀行資本佔核心資本的10.9%嗎？是否存在任何形式的重組或成為 IOC 或類似的東西？當我們展望未來 12 至 18 個月尋找這一趨勢時，它是否在銀行的關注範圍內？

Thank you for the question. It is a pleasure to have you with us. Regarding the second topic, we are very comfortable. We don't have any movement in the insurance group in that regard. We see profitability increasing, stable capital, a good buffer. Regarding digital, and next very soon we'll bring you this new value proposition of our digital business. We should be integrating next in this new value proposition along the year of 2025 and until the beginning of the second half of the year, but we'll bring you more on this, more details on this later. We have a strategy for that and we are in the process of executing it.

感謝您的提問。我們很高興您能加入我們。關於第二個話題，我們感到非常舒服。我們保險集團在這方面沒有任何動向。我們看到獲利能力在增加，資本穩定，緩衝良好。關於數位化，接下來我們很快將為您帶來我們數位業務的新價值主張。我們應該在 2025 年到下半年初將這一新的價值主張融入其中，但我們稍後會為您提供更多有關這方面的詳細資訊。我們對此有一個策略並且正在實施中。

And about capital, I answered about the capital.

關於首都，我回答了有關首都的問題。

Renato Meloni, Autonomous Research.

雷納托‧梅洛尼 (Renato Meloni)，自主研究。

Thank you for taking my questions. I'd like to go back to the NII. I'd like to reconcile this movement of moving towards safer portfolios while you're expanding NII and in Q4, we saw a flat NII compared to the prior quarter. I think that even if we consider the portfolio, the fact that you mentioned there is implicit NII increase.

感謝您回答我的問題。我想回到NII。我想在擴大 NII 的同時，調和向更安全的投資組合轉移的這一趨勢，在第四季度，我們看到 NII 與上一季相比持平。我認為，即使我們考慮投資組合，你提到的事實也存在隱性的 NII 增加。

And if I may ask a quick second question, in the guidance and increase in expenses does not include restructuring costs. Is this a fair statement? And can you give us an order of magnitude of what you expect for 2025?

我可以問第二個問題，指導和費用增加不包括重組成本。這是一個公平的說法嗎？您能告訴我們您對 2025 年的預期數量級嗎？

Thank you, Renato. It's a pleasure to have you on board. First, regarding the [8.4%] margin. Well, in absolute terms we're growing. I made a comment about the INSS and public payroll deductible loans. Every month we'd settle some, but we replenish that with higher margins. We might have a different index: 8.4%, 8.5%, 8.3%, but in absolute terms we're growing with the cost of risk which is very stable, well balanced. So we are very certain that we will continue to grow the margin.

謝謝你，雷納托。我很高興您能加入我們。首先，關於[8.4％]的利潤率。嗯，從絕對數字來看我們正在成長。我對 INSS 和公共工資扣除貸款發表了評論。我們每個月都會解決一些問題，但我們會用更高的利潤來補充。我們的指數可能有所不同：8.4%、8.5%、8.3%，但從絕對值來看，我們的成長風險成本非常穩定、均衡。因此我們非常確定我們將繼續提高利潤率。

I don't worry so much about the NII itself, the index itself, but I focus on absolute volume and it's constant growth and this is what we're going to deliver. So we have confidence that we'll deliver that. The restructuring cost is here. We made a provision to move forward with it and faster and to review our footprint, and I think that I mentioned in the past that our initial expectation for 2024 regarding our footprint review was of about 1,000 points of service, 750 closing agencies and the rest would be restructuring or renewal.

我並不太擔心 NII 本身，即指數本身，但我關注的是絕對量及其持續增長，這就是我們要實現的目標。因此我們有信心實現這一目標。重組成本就在這裡。我們制定了一項規定，以更快地推進這一進程並審查我們的足跡，我想我過去提到過，我們對 2024 年足跡審查的初步預期是關閉約 1,000 個服務點、關閉 750 個機構，其餘的將進行重組或更新。

And we have almost -- we had [1,385] even more in effect of BRL440 million approximately has an effect for us. So expenses compared to what we are doing in the transformation, well, it's much better in CapEx as well. So that's what I said. It's a brilliant plan and the payments companies I mentioned are making important moves in CapEx and OpEx and the insurance group is also working on OpEx and CapEx.

而且我們幾乎——我們有 [1,385] 甚至更多的實際收入，約 4.4 億雷亞爾。因此，與我們在轉型中所做的相比，資本支出也好得多。這就是我所說的。這是一個絕妙的計劃，我提到的支付公司正在資本支出和營運支出方面做出重要舉措，保險集團也在致力於營運支出和資本支出。

If we isolate net of the payments companies, that is 6.9%. So we continue to invest, we'll gain efficiency and productivity, and that's why we cannot stop working on the transformation of the bank. I have a lot of confidence in what we're doing, many deliverables, productivity gain. One of them is going to deliver 50% more technology output than we had in 2024, so it is a lot of growth.

如果我們將支付公司的淨額剔除，這一比例為 6.9%。因此我們繼續投資，我們將獲得效率和生產力，這就是為什麼我們不能停止致力於銀行轉型。我對我們所做的事情非常有信心，有很多可交付成果，生產力也提高了。其中一個專案的技術產出將比 2024 年多 50%，所以這是一個很大的成長。

Mario Pierry, Bank of America.

美國銀行的馬裡奧·皮埃里 (Mario Pierry)。

Morning. Congratulations on the results. Marcello Noronha, my question is, well, listening to the results of all of the banks, so far everyone is focused on more cautious loan granting, more high-income clients and products that are secured. So it seems that there is going to be intense competition in this, and we see everyone very cautious with the mass market. So wouldn't this be a timely moment for you to grow your mass market, given that everyone is being very cautious?

早晨。恭喜你所取得的成果。馬塞洛·諾羅尼亞，我的問題是，嗯，聽取所有銀行的業績報告，到目前為止，每個人都專注於更加謹慎地發放貸款、更多的高收入客戶和有擔保的產品。因此看起來這個領域的競爭將會非常激烈，而且我們看到每個人都對大眾市場非常謹慎。那麼，鑑於大家都非常謹慎，這不是您拓展大眾市場的恰當時機嗎？

Theoretically, you would have room to price this risk better. My question is, what would make you take on a little bit more risk and focus more on the mass market?

從理論上來說，你有更好的空間來為這個風險定價。我的問題是，什麼會讓您承擔更多的風險並更加關注大眾市場？

Thank you. That's a good question. It's a provocative question. When I spoke about mass market and digital, we are talking about 1 million clients with this new value proposition. We're testing some models and we continue to intensify our penetration here. We grew 2 million clients, man. So I mean, we're growing a (inaudible), we're growing in different fronts. And I also mentioned some more information with the new platforms. We gained a lot of efficiency, productivity, and client experience with Bradesco Expresso.

謝謝。這是個好問題。這是一個發人深省的問題。當我談到大眾市場和數位化時，我們談論的是擁有這新價值主張的 100 萬客戶。我們正在測試一些模型，並繼續加強我們的滲透。我們增加了 200 萬客戶。所以我的意思是，我們正在發展（聽不清楚），我們正在不同方面發展。我還提到了一些有關新平台的更多資訊。我們透過 Bradesco Expresso 獲得了極大的效率、生產力和客戶體驗。

It's a correspondent bank. We grew more than 100% in granting payroll deductible loans. So you see, we have a risk appetite. It's not that we're not working with mass market. We are, but we are choosing the risks adequately because nothing can replace a good quality of assets, and this is something we will not give up. We will not give up on risk-adjusted return or RAR, but we are working in mass market.

它是一家代理銀行。我們發放的薪資扣除貸款增加了 100% 以上。所以你看，我們有風險偏好。這並不是說我們沒有與大眾市場合作。是的，但是我們會充分選擇風險，因為沒有任何東西可以取代優質的資產，這是我們不會放棄的。我們不會放棄風險調整回報或 RAR，但我們在大眾市場開展工作。

I showed this with Express, I showed that we increased by 45% of sales with those implementations in mass market for that set of clients. So we are increasing our penetration, but you see, with good risks and good modalities, payroll deductible loans and products that we can work with, that will bring us adequate risk for our organization. So it's not that we are giving up and growing in our mass market and testing new models with Bradesco Expresso, and even with digital, you will see the deliverables we'll have this year.

我透過 Express 展示了這一點，我展示了透過在大眾市場針對該客戶群實施這些措施，我們的銷售額增加了 45%。因此，我們正在提高滲透率，但是你看，有了好的風險和好的方式，工資扣除貸款和我們可以合作的產品，這將為我們的組織帶來足夠的風險。因此，我們不會放棄，我們會在大眾市場上發展，並透過 Bradesco Expresso 測試新模式，甚至透過數位方式，您都會看到我們今年的交付成果。

We'll be showing you. We didn't give up on that, but the risk appetite needs to be controlled. We need to have return and this is what's on the table full time. I would like to highlight two improvements in risk management. First, we worked with volatility clusters. We have five volatility clusters. The moment we start adjusting risk appetite, we adjust mainly at the highest volatility cluster. The people who are more exposed to the deterioration of the macroeconomy, that's where we start adjusting and we started doing that.

我們將向您展示。我們並沒有放棄這一點，但需要控制風險偏好。我們需要回報，這就是我們目前要討論的問題。我想強調風險管理的兩項改善。首先，我們研究了波動性集群。我們有五個波動性集群。當我們開始調整風險偏好時，我們主要針對波動性最高的群體進行調整。那些更容易受到宏觀經濟惡化影響的人，就是我們開始調整的地方，我們也開始這麼做了。

The second improvement has to do with repricing. Of course, higher risk clients have higher spreads; lower risk, lower spread. And that could become slightly more tilted in the last few quarters. In other words, we're charging a little more spread, but there is a little more risk. We adjusted our offerings and we have demand and we would have a better priced risk, and risk is better priced in these segments. Mario, thank you for the question.

第二個改進與重新定價有關。當然，風險較高的客戶有較高的利差；風險更低，利差更低。而這一情況在最後幾季可能會變得更加傾斜。換句話說，我們收取的利差稍微大一些，但風險也稍微大一些。我們調整了產品，我們有需求，我們將有更好的風險定價，而這些領域的風險定價更好。馬裡奧，謝謝你的提問。

Pedro Leduc, Itaú BBA.

Pedro Leduc，義大利 BBA。

Good morning and thank you for this opportunity. My question relates to NII. In 2024, NII was below the guidance, of course, that's gauged by loan loss provisions. But this has been the most challenging one. But when you look at a 2025 guidance and saying that -- you're saying that it will grow above the portfolio, I would just like your help to help me understand it because you talked about the tail effect. But even the spreads of the industry for payroll loans and real estate and mortgage, et cetera, I know that the new vintages are accumulating lower spreads in your portfolio, and you want also to do that they're risk and this will be highly depending on funding adjustments.

早安，感謝您給我這個機會。我的問題與 NII 有關。2024 年，NII 低於指導水平，當然，這是透過貸款損失準備來衡量的。但這是最具挑戰性的一次。但當你看到 2025 年的指引並說——你說它將超過投資組合的成長，我只是希望你能幫助我理解它，因為你談到了尾部效應。但即使是薪資貸款、房地產和抵押貸款等行業的利差，我知道新債券在你的投資組合中累積了較低的利差，你也希望這樣做，它們有風險，這將高度依賴資金調整。

Is this a correct observation or maybe in terms of pricing you might be more aggressive? I just want to be a bit more comfortable when it comes to client NII given the industry challenges and recent history.

這是正確的觀察嗎？考慮到產業挑戰和近期歷史，我只是想在客戶 NII 方面更加放心。

Pedro, thank you for your question. It's a pleasure to see you. Andre will start answering your questions and then both of us will jump in. I would like to highlight a few efficiency measures that we adopted when it comes to managing our liability and this is reducing our cost of funding. When there is increases in the [select] rate, we make more money. I mean, this is a process that is ongoing so all we have to do is accelerate. With the deterioration of the macro scenario, we compensate that with efficiency measures so that our client NII can improve and we gain about 2 percentage points in the client NII segment. This is a very important point.

佩德羅，謝謝你的提問。很高興見到你。安德烈會開始回答你的問題，然後我們兩個就會開始討論。我想強調我們在管理負債時採取的一些效率措施，這些措施正在降低我們的融資成本。當[選擇]率增加時，我們會賺更多的錢。我的意思是，這是一個正在進行的過程，所以我們要做的就是加速。隨著宏觀情勢的惡化，我們採取了效率措施來彌補，以便我們的客戶 NII 能夠得到改善，我們在客戶 NII 領域獲得了大約 2 個百分點的成長。這是非常重要的一點。

The second important aspect that was even highlighted in the coupon is that the Central Bank, in terms of banking loans, they see deceleration in lines with lower spreads, and these are lines with longer duration where the effects of the monetary policy has an initial impact. So when you decelerate lines with lower spread, the demand goes to lines with better spread. So naturally, there is a change in the mix.

息票中強調的第二個重要面向是，就銀行貸款而言，央行看到利差較低的貸款線路減速，這些貸款線路持續時間較長，貨幣政策的效果初步顯現。因此，當你降低價差較低的線路速度時，需求就會轉向價差較好的線路。因此，自然而然地，混合物發生了變化。

This helps to recover spread, so that 8.4 number that you see there, that's where we see increases throughout 2021.

這有助於恢復利差，所以您看到的 8.4 這個數字，代表了我們在 2021 年看到的成長。

Pedro, again, well, good morning and thank you for your question. It's also important if I comment on your answer. I mean, personalization is something that has been our focus and this has to do with repricing. This component, in addition to the inventory of 2024, which is quite healthy, is what will set the pace for higher growth in client NII. And funding is quite important as well and there are other important aspects. I mean, we are doing some important work in SME, cash management, and all of that has brought good results to the bank.

佩德羅，早安，再次感謝您的提問。如果我對您的回答發表評論也很重要。我的意思是，個人化一直是我們的重點，這與重新定價有關。這一組成部分，加上 2024 年相當健康的庫存，將為客戶 NII 的更高成長奠定基礎。資金也很重要，還有其他重要面向。我的意思是，我們在中小企業、現金管理方面做了一些重要的工作，所有這些都為銀行帶來了良好的業績。

So it's just a set of three pillars: hyperpersonalization, pricing, and a better retention in terms of principality. And the good vintage that we build up in 2024, all of these things combined allow us to reach better client NII levels.

所以它只是一組三根支柱：超個性化，定價，以及在公國方面更好的保留。我們在 2024 年累積的良好業績，所有這些因素結合起來使我們能夠達到更好的客戶 NII 水平。

I would just like to add one more thing. First of all, we have to carry over for 2025 since there was the accumulation. NIM could fluctuate but NII will continue to grow as we saw quarter on quarter even for this capacity of production that we have in these different lines, even if the spreads are lower, but the level of return -- risk-adjusted return is much higher. That was a much better level to be and portfolios with longer term like these programs FGI, FGO, there is stability and the loss level is low and under control.

我只想補充一點。首先，我們必須延續到2025年，因為已經有了累積。NIM 可能會波動，但 NII 將繼續成長，正如我們所看到的，即使對於我們在這些不同生產線上的生產能力而言，即使利差較低，但回報水平——風險調整後的回報要高得多。這是一個更好的水平，而像 FGI、FGO 等計劃這樣的長期投資組合則具有穩定性，並且損失水平較低且在控制之中。

Second of all, Andre said that our funding cost is coming down and the third point is that we remunerate some clients that have deposits with us at a level that is nice for the client and very positive for us, so this combination of deposits and demand deposits, they grew a lot this year and this is a result of what Cassiano just said and also a result of our activity. So we're growing funding at a low cost and this also helps us in terms of our leverage, the end cost and the NII margin that you talked about.

其次，安德烈說我們的融資成本正在下降，第三點是，我們以對客戶有利、對我們非常有利的水平回報一些在我們這裡存款的客戶，所以今年存款和活期存款的組合增長了很多，這是卡西亞諾剛才所說的結果，也是我們活動的結果。因此，我們正在以低成本增加融資，這也有助於我們提高槓桿率、最終成本和您提到的 NII 利潤率。

Therefore, we know that we will gradually grow and at the same time, the absolute value will be higher and as a consequence, I mean this has to do with our bottom line. And the bottom line is NII net of provisions. I mean NII will come in absolute terms, and NIM is just the result of something that we're building along the months.

因此，我們知道我們將逐步成長，同時絕對值也會更高，因此，我認為這與我們的底線有關。底線是 NII 淨撥備。我的意思是 NII 會以絕對值的形式出現，而 NIM 只是我們在過去幾個月中不斷累積的結果。

Yuri Fernandes, JP Morgan.

尤里‧費爾南德斯 (Juri Fernandes)，摩根大通 (JP Morgan)。

I would like you to elaborate on your expense line. I mean, what if something goes wrong? I think other analysts already ask about cost of credit or cost of risk that could be a bit challenging or maybe not. Maybe the margin will not grow. I just want to understand if your expense line could be a buffer, could be an adjustment line? If you anticipate a more difficult year for some reason, or maybe you would delay some of your investments just to deliver the bottom line or whether the bank is committed to the investments? Or maybe if something goes wrong in the cost of credit or margin, if you will continue to pursue your expense line?

我希望您詳細說明您的開支項目。我的意思是，如果出現問題怎麼辦？我認為其他分析師已經詢問過信貸成本或風險成本，這可能有點挑戰性，也可能沒有。利潤率也許不會成長。我只是想了解您的費用線是否可以作為緩衝，是否可以作為調整線？如果您出於某種原因預計今年的情況會更加艱難，或者也許您會推遲一些投資，僅僅為了實現底線目標，或者銀行是否致力於投資？或者，如果信貸成本或保證金出現問題，您是否會繼續追求您的費用線？

It's a trade-off with long term. It's a pleasure to talk to you again, Yuri. Well, the first decision -- I mean, you were just laying down a hypothesis and we have to look at it in a very dynamic way. But it certainly depends on, okay, let's say there's a new pandemic coming, it's a new situation, but the macro scenario, it's slightly worse than what we envisioned. That's another situation. But our decision, even bringing it to that scenario I referred to last quarter, it was 70%, 30% and now we are working with 30%.

這是與長期的權衡。很高興再次與您交談，尤里。嗯，第一個決定——我的意思是，你只是提出一個假設，我們必須以一種非常動態的方式來看待它。但這肯定取決於，假設有一場新的流行病即將來臨，這是一種新的情況，但宏觀形勢比我們預想的要糟糕一些。那是另一種情況。但我們的決定，即使按照我上個季度提到的情景，以前是 70%，30%，現在我們正在以 30% 的速度工作。

I'm more cautious with the landscape but I repeat it again. It's more cautious, but I am not pessimistic. On the contrary, I'm very optimistic. I'm very optimistic with what we're doing here and obviously, I'm optimistic with the opportunities we see in the market. This payroll deductible loan that the government wants to promote with [eSocial] and other companies, already talked about that.

我對景觀更加謹慎，但我又重複了一遍。比較謹慎，但並不悲觀。相反，我非常樂觀。我對我們在這裡所做的事情非常樂觀，顯然，我對我們在市場上看到的機會非常樂觀。政府希望與 [eSocial] 和其他公司合作推廣的薪資扣款貸款，我們已經討論過了。

And again, I say that this is an opportunity for all of us to grow depending on how they implement that whether there is or there is no cap so that we can adjust to that kind of risk. Therefore, I see great opportunities in this market. And then we decided that even with a more cautious scenario to apply a guidance and coming from this more cautious scenario, we will not stop investing, not even a cent, and this will have an important impact in the next coming quarters in 2026 and 2027 and you will see that. You will see for yourself.

我再說一次，這對我們所有人來說都是一個成長的機會，這取決於他們如何實施，無論有沒有上限，這樣我們就可以適應這種風險。因此，我看到這個市場有很大的機會。然後，我們決定，即使在更加謹慎的情況下應用指導，並且在這種更加謹慎的情況下，我們也不會停止投資，一分錢也不會停止，這將對 2026 年和 2027 年接下來的幾個季度產生重要影響，您會看到這一點。您將親眼看到。

Thank you.

謝謝。

I would just like to add one more thing. I think expenses is something that could be broken down in two parts. One is investment. We want to preserve because there is competitiveness gains in the mid and long range and the other aspect is the other expenses, personnel expenses, admin expenses grew below inflation of 4.8% total control. And here again we could be a bit more cautious. We are just reviewing more, meaning that there is always room to be more efficient in our expenses regardless of the macro scenario.

我只想補充一點。我認為費用可以分為兩個部分。一是投資。我們希望維持這一水平，因為在中長期內競爭力有所提升，另一方面是其他費用、人事費用、管理費用的成長低於4.8%的整體控制通膨率。在這方面，我們應該要更加謹慎。我們只是在進行更多的審查，這意味著無論宏觀情景如何，我們的支出總是有提高效率的空間。

Carlos Gomez-Lopez, HSBC.

匯豐銀行卡洛斯‧戈麥斯‧洛佩茲 (Carlos Gomez-Lopez)。

Thank you very much. So congratulations on the results. So two questions. First, on the implementation of IFRS, could you revisit the logic why you have such a big impact on securities and why this seems to be quite idiosyncratic to Bradesco.? We have not seen it in other institutions. It's a big amount, BRL8 billion, so we want to understand exactly why this happens.

非常感謝。恭喜你所取得的成果。所以有兩個問題。首先，關於 IFRS 的實施，您能否重新闡述為什麼您對證券有如此大的影響，以及為什麼這對 Bradesco 來說似乎很特殊？我們還沒有在其他機構看到過這種情況。這是一筆很大的金額，80億巴西雷亞爾，所以我們想確切了解為什麼會發生這種情況。

And second, earlier last year, you were mentioning 2026 as the year when we reach a normalized return. Is that still the goal that you will get there in 2026 and how would you define a normalized return? Thank you.

其次，去年早些時候，您提到 2026 年是我們實現正常回報的一年。這仍然是您在 2026 年實現的目標嗎？謝謝。

Well, thank you, Carlos. I will try to rephrase the previous answer to make it more clear. The movement of the new IFRS brought some differences for the organizations and some competitors, even (inaudible) yesterday mentioned that. Very similar to the move we had here.

好吧，謝謝你，卡洛斯。我將嘗試重新措辭先前的答案以使其更加清晰。新國際財務報告準則的實施為各組織和一些競爭對手帶來了一些不同，甚至（聽不清楚）昨天也提到了這一點。與我們在這裡的舉動非常相似。

The first big move was regarding operational risk. We all knew about 0.20% again, 4.966 brings us the possibility of adjustment in shareholders equity in terms of credit policies and PLL. What we did was an adjustment to the basic model that the Central Bank allocates. It's a tropicalization of the Brazilian Central Bank in terms of PLL, we have a total of BRL2,990 million that we considered a debit of our [metropolitan] company. And this would lead to a reduction in our BIS of 0.27%.

第一個重大舉措是針對營運風險。我們都知道大約0.20%，4.966為我們帶來了在信用政策和PLL方面調整股東權益的可能性。我們做的是對央行分配的基本模式進行調整。這是巴西中央銀行在 PLL 方面的熱帶化，我們總共擁有 29.9 億雷亞爾，我們將其視為我們 [大都會] 公司的借方。這將導致我們的 BIS 減少 0.27%。

Given a decision by the Central Bank, this 0.27% was diluted along for four years, so we had minus 0.20% due to the reduction of operating risk, 007, given the reclassification of the credit part, BRL2,990 million and we also had a prerogative that other institutions also used, which is the possibility of classifying our securities that had three or four classifications available for sale or to maturity or free to be traded to a new concept called amortized cost that adjust financial instruments to the new categories of classifications according to the business model.

根據中央銀行的決定，這 0.27% 的比率在四年內被稀釋，因此，由於營運風險的降低，我們有-0.20%，0.07，考慮到信貸部分的重新分類，為 29.9 億巴西雷亞爾，並且我們還擁有其他機構也使用的特權，那就是可以將我們的金融類型。

In a nutshell, in the bank on January 1, 2025, we had a full adaptation to the Rule 4.966 and IFRS; there was no change. I think that the other banks, given their explanatory notes, used the same instruments that we included in our balance sheet.

簡而言之，在銀行2025年1月1日，我們對規則4.966和IFRS進行了全面適應；沒有變化。我認為其他銀行在其解釋性說明中使用了與我們在資產負債表中包含的相同的工具。

And I will complement the answer. We are going to pursue and to deliver an ROE which is a lot better. But this is -- we want to be under promising and overdelivering, and it is probable that this will not be normalized by 2026. It might still be growing.

我會補充答案。我們將追求並實現更好的 ROE。但這是——我們希望低承諾、高兌現，而且這種情況到 2026 年很可能不會正常化。它可能還在增長。

Eduardo Nishio, Genial Investimentos.

愛德華多‧西尾 (Eduardo Nishio)，Genial Investimentos。

Good morning, everyone. I want to have a follow-up question regarding profitability. The scenario has changed a lot since you mentioned this return on shareholders equity. [HEVO] cost of capital, which has also been growing over time given the macroeconomic scenario, so this is the same idea? The cost of capital now is close to perhaps 15%, 16%. So do you think that in 2026 you will achieve this kind of profitability?

大家早安。我想問一個關於獲利能力的後續問題。自從您提到股東權益回報率以來，情況已經發生了很大變化。 [HEVO] 考慮到宏觀經濟情景，資本成本也一直在隨著時間的推移而增長，所以這是相同的想法嗎？現在的資本成本可能接近15%、16%。那麼您認為到2026年你們會實現這種獲利能力嗎？

And my second question is regarding market NII. Market NII, you spoke about neutrality. I think that you mean you want to be closer to zero, to not having a negative or positive results in 2025. So I would like to know what is your strategy regarding that line? In the coming years, not in 2025, but in 2026, 2027, would this line go back to a normalized level? And what would be this normalized level in your opinion? And what about your hedge strategy? How is this being implemented?

我的第二個問題是關於市場 NII。市場 NII，您談到了中立性。我認為你的意思是你希望更接近零，在 2025 年不會出現負面或正面的結果。所以我想知道你對這條線路的策略是什麼？在未來幾年，不是2025年，而是2026年、2027年，這條線會回到正常水準嗎？您認為這個正常化程度是多少？你們的對沖策略又如何呢？目前具體如何實施？

Will you remain neutral to the (inaudible) rate in the coming years? And do you consider hedging your capital because that would be another possibility?

未來幾年您會對（聽不清楚）利率保持中立嗎？您是否考慮對沖您的資本，因為那是另一種可能性？

Thank you for the questions. It is a pleasure to see you here. I'll start answering the first part of the question, and then I will ask Cassiano to answer the second question. As regards to ROE higher than the cost of capital, you were correct. When we delivered our plan in February, we had a different horizon, our cost of capital, which was lower. We don't say what our cost of capital is, but if we imagine that our cost of capital was around 14%, if we get all of the variables we have today, it is above 15%. Is this a bigger challenge? Yes, but we'll get there.

感謝您的提問。我很高興在這裡見到你。我將開始回答問題的第一部分，然後我會請卡西亞諾回答第二個問題。關於 ROE 高於資本成本，您說的對。當我們在二月推出計劃時，我們有一個不同的視野，我們的資本成本較低。我們沒有說我們的資本成本是多少，但如果我們想像我們的資本成本約為 14%，如果我們獲得今天擁有的所有變量，它會超過 15%。這是一個更大的挑戰嗎？是的，但我們會到達那裡。

And it is what I said earlier in the previous question. We will not promise anything, but we will deliver. So it's under promising and over delivering at the right time. We are advancing step by step. Everything we said we were going to do, we delivered. Everything we said in the timeline, we are reaching that. So we'll get there. Cassiano?

這正是我在上一個問題所說的。我們不會承諾任何事情，但我們會兌現。因此，它是在正確的時間承諾不足但交付過多。我們正在一步步前進。我們說過要做的每一件事，我們都做到了。我們在時間表上所說的一切，我們都正在實現。所以我們會到達那裡。卡西亞諾？

Thank you, Marcelo. Thank you, Nishio. I think that you raised an important point. Indeed, the market NII is perhaps the most difficult NII for us to forecast and to give a guidance for. There are a number of variations. And as regards the neutrality concept, that is it we see between [0] and BRL1 billion. But let's remember Marcelo's inspiration. We have an important work. The trading gave us very significant result in Q3 and Q4. So we are working a lot to pursue gains.

謝謝你，馬塞洛。謝謝你，西尾。我認為你提出了一個重要的觀點。事實上，市場 NII 也許是我們最難預測和指導的 NII。存在多種變化。就中立概念而言，我們看到的是 [0] 到 10 億巴西雷亞爾之間。但讓我們記住馬塞洛的啟發。我們有一項重要的工作。這筆交易在第三季和第四季為我們帶來了非常顯著的業績。因此，我們付出了很多努力來追求利益。

This is the essence of trading. We don't have a hedge policy which is open and documented, but we do very important work every quarter considering fluctuations, and we do this kind of work in specific operations. So this is under the management of [Roberto Parisi]. So we have clarity on that. We are much more neutral to market fluctuations and interest rates.

這就是交易的本質。我們沒有一個公開、記錄的對沖政策，但是我們每季都會考慮波動，做非常重要的工作，而且我們在具體的操作中也會做這種工作。因此這是由[羅伯托·帕里西]。所以我們對此很清楚。我們對市場波動和利率更加中立。

We are now in a hiking cycle. We know where the hiking cycle is going, so overall both capital and our ALM is analyzed in that context and we don't have a tacit policy of hedge, but we have a policy of working daily operations, making some kind of hedge or protection or an operation against some specific flows. So yes, when they (inaudible) is a good market in NII in a year of high interest rates, although we want to bring in more and in the future, we will have to see what is going to be the new normal.

我們現在正處於健行週期。我們知道升息週期的走向，因此總體而言，資本和資產負債管理都是在這種背景下進行分析的，我們沒有默認的對沖政策，但我們有日常運營的政策，對某些特定資金流動進行某種對沖或保護或操作。所以是的，當他們（聽不清楚）在高利率的年份裡，NII 市場表現良好時，儘管我們希望引入更多資金，但在未來，我們將不得不看看什麼會成為新常態。

We wasted a lot of time, over time we lost the tax, the tax was a very important instrument. He was the Head of Foreign Capital, and we have to have a new neutrality. Last year we had excellent treasury results, and that is an indicator of a much more normalized market NII. Then in this year when we have an interest rate hiking cycle, so the level of 2024 should be the benchmark for us this year. I think that this is what Casiano is saying. So this would be a reference for you as a bottom in a normalized condition, but thank you for the question.

我們浪費了很多時間，隨著時間的推移，我們失去了稅收，稅收是一種非常重要的工具。他是外國資本主管，我們必須保持新的中立。去年，我們的財務表現十分出色，這顯示市場 NII 更加正常化。那麼今年我們又有一個升息週期，所以2024年的水準應該是我們今年的基準。我認為這就是卡西亞諾所說的。因此，這可以作為正常化條件下的底部為您提供參考，但還是感謝您的提問。

Tito Labarta, Goldman Sachs.

高盛的 Tito Labarta。

Hi, good morning, guys. Thank you for the call and taking my question. I guess just a couple of clarifications just to make sure I understood. One is on the restructuring charges, right? I mean, you had BRL443 million this year, BRL570 million in 2023. Do you expect to have any more this year? Just want to understand how non-recurring these are or when do you think these restructuring charges go away?

大家早安。感謝您來電並回答我的問題。我想只需要澄清幾點以確保我理解了。一個是關於重組費用，對嗎？我的意思是，今年你有 4.43 億雷亞爾，2023 年有 5.7 億雷亞爾。您預計今年還會有更多嗎？只是想了解這些費用有多不經常性，或者您認為這些重組費用何時會消失？

And then the second question, and sorry to ask you again on capital, I just want to make sure that I understood. The 60 bps increase from the Resolution 4.966, I wasn't clear -- what drove the increase? Was that the reclassification of securities or? Just if you could just walk me through why there was an increase because I think expectations were it would be a bit more negative. So just to make sure I'm clear. Thank you.

然後是第二個問題，很抱歉再次詢問您有關資本的問題，我只是想確保我理解了。從決議 4.966 開始，利率增加了 60 個基點，我不清楚——是什麼推動了利率增加？這是證券的重新分類嗎？如果你能告訴我為什麼會出現成長，因為我認為預期會更負面一些。只是為了確保我清楚明白。謝謝。

Okay, thank you, Tito. Good to see you again. To answer your first question, provisions for restructuring, like you commented, it's focused in the review of our footprint, not only there but particularly there because the investments that we've been doing as I said, are much higher than that. But how long it will last? I mean, it's a transformation. We said that our transformation will go from 2024 to 2028. It's not that it will start now and it ends in '28. I mean, we've been delivering lots of things and we will continue to deliver. We'll continue to invest.

好的，謝謝你，蒂托。很高興再次見到你。回答您的第一個問題，重組規定，就像您所評論的那樣，重點是審查我們的足跡，不僅在那裡，而且特別是在那裡，因為正如我所說，我們一直在做投資，遠高於這個數字。但這種狀況能持續多久呢？我的意思是，這是一種轉變。我們說我們的轉型將從2024年持續到2028年。這並不是說它現在就開始，並在28年結束。我的意思是，我們已經交付了很多東西，而且我們將繼續交付。我們將繼續投資。

We have a lot of investment. There are a lot of things to do in 2025. We still have a lot to do in 2026, but as you go on that journey, we also capture efficiency, we increase productivity. Just like I said when I talked about technology, we're increasing productivity and efficiency and we managed to do that this year through new technologies, new format, a new team.

我們有很多投資。2025 年有很多事情要做。到 2026 年我們還有很多事情要做，但隨著我們繼續前行，我們也會提高效率，提高生產力。正如我在談論技術時所說的那樣，我們正在提高生產力和效率，今年我們透過新技術、新形式和新團隊成功地做到了這一點。

Therefore, we will continue to pursue that and certainly, we will capture further benefits as the years go by, '26 and '27 and so on, and I think Cassiano can talk about that 60 basis points when he talked about capital growth with the 4.966.

因此，我們將繼續追求這一目標，而且，隨著時間的推移，我們肯定會獲得更多的利益，26 年、27 年等等，我認為卡西亞諾在談到 4.966 的資本增長時可以談到 60 個基點。

Thank you. Nice to meet you. Let me try to clarify. Basically that 0.60% comes from the movement of securities. That's what I said in the previous answers, the reclassification of our securities for our very specific cost model for every operation model that allowed us to get to that 0.60%. But as a reminder, within that number, I have two negatives.

謝謝。很高興見到你。讓我試著澄清一下。基本上那 0.60% 來自證券的流動。這就是我在前面的回答中所說的，對我們的證券進行重新分類，使其適應於我們針對每個營運模型的非常具體的成本模型，這使我們能夠達到 0.60% 的水平。但提醒一下，在這個數字中，我有兩個負數。

From what I said, 0.20% comes from operating risk and [0.07%] comes from the legislation of the adjustment and the shareholders equity of loan loss provisions. So we had 12.7% in September, 12.4% in December 30 phase, also according to NTM. So on January 1, our BIS ratio was adjusted. So this 0.60% from the adjusted adjustment comes from mark to market or the cost utilize. This is something that is very regulated according to the 4.966 and the new IFRS. That's where this positive difference comes from.

我所說的0.20%來自經營風險，[0.07%]來自貸款損失準備的調整和股東權益的立法。因此，根據 NTM，9 月的利率為 12.7%，12 月 30 日的利率為 12.4%。因此，在 1 月 1 日起，我們的 BIS 比率進行了調整。因此，調整後的 0.60% 來自市價或成本利用。這是根據 4.966 和新 IFRS 嚴格規範的事情。這種積極差異正是由此產生的。

So now, we conclude our Q&A session. The questions that were not answered, our IR team will certainly answer them right after this. The presentation is available in our IR website. This presentation, other earnings releases, and other presentations.

現在，我們結束問答環節。對於尚未回答的問題，我們的 IR 團隊肯定會立即回應。該演示文稿可在我們 IR 網站上找到。本簡報、其他收益報告以及其他簡報。

So now I turn the floor to Marcelo to conclude this presentation.

現在我請馬塞洛來結束這場演講。

Thank you, Andre, thank you, Cassiano, and thank you all of you who worked with us and thank you to analysts that spent time with us and joined us in this earnings release call for the fourth quarter of 2024 and the full year. We are certainly open to talk to sell side, by side, and any other investor that seeks for further clarification.

謝謝安德烈 (Andre)，謝謝卡西亞諾 (Cassiano)，謝謝與我們合作的所有人，也謝謝花時間與我們一起參加 2024 年第四季度和全年收益發布電話會議的分析師。我們當然願意與賣方以及任何尋求進一步澄清的其他投資者進行交談。

And once again, I must say that we are pursuing a very cautious view but we remain optimistic in terms of what we're doing and what could be the next perspective scenario for Brazil. So I wish you a very good weekend. Thank you.

我必須再次強調，我們持非常謹慎的態度，但我們對我們正在做的事情以及巴西的下一步前景保持樂觀。我祝大家週末愉快。謝謝。