XP Inc (XP) 2023 Q2 法說會逐字稿

Good evening, everyone. I'm Antonio Guimarães, Investor Relations in XP Inc. On behalf of the company, I'd like to thank you all for the interest and welcome you to our 2023 2nd quarter earnings call. Today, we have here with us our CFO, Bruno Constantino; and our CEO, Thiago Maffra. We will all be available for the Q&A session right after the presentation. (Operator Instructions)

各位晚上好。我是 XP Inc. 投資者關係部的 Antonio Guimaráes。我謹代表公司感謝大家的關注，並歡迎您參加我們的 2023 年第二季度財報電話會議。今天，我們的首席財務官布魯諾·康斯坦丁 (Bruno Constantino) 也來到了這裡。以及我們的首席執行官蒂亞戈·馬夫拉 (Thiago Maffra)。演示結束後，我們將立即參加問答環節。 （操作員說明）

We also have the option of simultaneous translations to Portuguese. So there's a button on the Zoom if you want to turn on the translation. And before we begin our presentation, please refer to our legal disclaimers on Page 2 on which we clarify forward-looking statements. Additional information on forward-looking statements can also be found on the SEC Filings section on the IR website.

我們還可以選擇葡萄牙語同聲翻譯。如果您想打開翻譯，Zoom 上有一個按鈕。在我們開始演示之前，請參閱第 2 頁上的法律免責聲明，我們在其中澄清了前瞻性聲明。有關前瞻性陳述的更多信息也可以在 IR 網站的 SEC 文件部分找到。

So now I'll pass the word to Thiago Maffra. Good evening, Maffra.

現在我將轉告蒂亞戈·馬夫拉。晚上好，馬夫拉。

Good evening, everyone. Thank you for joining us today on our 2023 second quarter earnings call. It's a pleasure to be here with you tonight. I would like to start with a brief introduction to this quarter's operational and financial highlights and I'll give you a bit of context of where we are in terms of our long-term strategy we talked about in the last quarter. In the second quarter of 2023, we achieved a key milestone, surpassing BRL 1 trillion in client assets. Client assets have grown at a 30% CAGR since the IPO. Coupled with this historic milestone, we estimate we have gained approximately 30 bps in market share in investments for individuals year-to-date and approximately 60 bps in the last 12 months despite a very tough macro environment condition.

各位晚上好。感謝您今天參加我們的 2023 年第二季度財報電話會議。很高興今晚能和大家在一起。我想首先簡要介紹本季度的運營和財務亮點，然後我將向您介紹我們在上個季度討論的長期戰略方面的背景情況。 2023 年第二季度，我們實現了一個重要里程碑，客戶資產突破 1 萬億雷亞爾。自 IPO 以來，客戶資產的複合年增長率為 30%。加上這一歷史性里程碑，我們估計，儘管宏觀環境條件非常嚴峻，但今年迄今為止，我們的個人投資市場份額已增加了約 30 個基點，在過去 12 個月內增加了約 60 個基點。

For the second quarter, earnings before tax was BRL 968 million, up 12% year-over-year, where our continued efforts to improve operation leverage resulted in 198 bps of additional margin expansion. Net income was BRL 977 million, up 7% year-over-year driving our net income margins up 91 bps year-over-year. Annualized retail take rate was 1.3%, up 9 bps quarter-over-quarter. Return on average equity, a key profitability measure for XP rose 334 bps sequentially to BRL 0.22, and our diluted earnings per share of BRL 1.83 increased 24% over the first quarter.

第二季度稅前利潤為 9.68 億雷亞爾，同比增長 12%，我們持續努力改善運營槓桿，導致利潤率額外擴大 198 個基點。淨利潤為 9.77 億雷亞爾，同比增長 7%，帶動淨利潤率同比增長 91 個基點。年化零售率為 1.3%，環比上升 9 個基點。 XP 的一項關鍵盈利指標——平均股本回報率比第一季度增長了 334 個基點，達到 0.22 雷亞爾，稀釋後每股收益為 1.83 雷亞爾，比第一季度增長了 24%。

Moving to Page 6. We were happy to see the market trends and our profitability improve in the second quarter. Following a challenging first quarter, we have started to see a recovery in capital markets activity. We are pleased with the recovery in GCM volumes, and we have started to see some activity in the equity capital market as well. Specifically, we saw the follow-on offerings window opening in late June and continue to see positive trends into the third quarter.

轉到第 6 頁。我們很高興看到第二季度的市場趨勢和盈利能力的改善。在經歷了充滿挑戰的第一季度之後，我們開始看到資本市場活動的複蘇。我們對 GCM 交易量的複蘇感到高興，並且我們也開始看到股權資本市場出現一些活動。具體來說，我們看到後續發行窗口於 6 月下旬打開，並在第三季度繼續看到積極的趨勢。

On August 2, the Central Bank started its monetary easing cycle, cutting the SELIC rate by 50 bps, the first cut in 3 years. When we look to the second half of 2023, we are encouraged by a more positive market environment. We believe stronger capital markets activity and lower SELIC by the end of the year should favor our core investments business. However, the recovery may take some time as well as it will depend on further interest rate cuts and also retail investors shifting back to riskier assets.

8月2日，央行開始貨幣寬鬆週期，將SELIC利率下調50個基點，這是三年來的首次下調。展望 2023 年下半年，更加積極的市場環境令我們感到鼓舞。我們認為，到今年年底，資本市場活動的加強和 SELIC 的降低將有利於我們的核心投資業務。然而，復甦可能需要一段時間，並將取決於進一步降息以及散戶投資者轉向風險較高資產的情況。

On the profitability front, EBT and net margin improvements in the second quarter reflect better market trends, combined with strict cost controls. This operating leverage resulted in moderate improvement in both EBT, a quarter-over-quarter increase of 123 basis points and net margin a quarter-over-quarter increase of 213 basis points. These improvements are in line with our focus to drive ROE growth over the next years both through earnings growth and capital distributions to shareholders.

在盈利能力方面，第二季度息稅前利潤和淨利潤率的改善反映了更好的市場趨勢以及嚴格的成本控制。這種運營槓桿使得息稅前利潤（EBT）略有改善，環比增長123個基點，淨利潤環比增長213個基點。這些改進符合我們在未來幾年通過盈利增長和向股東分配資本來推動股本回報率增長的重點。

Let's move to Slide 7. We are very pleased with the positive momentum in our operating trends such as client assets, active clients and total IFAs. In June, we hit the historical mark of BRL 1 trillion in client assets. With less than 12% market share in investments for individuals, I believe we are still early in our growth trajectory. IFA net additions were over 1,000 in the quarter, reaching more than 14,000 in total. This comes from several factors, such as new educational partnerships helping to hire and train new investment advisers, lower churn in the IFA network and overall improvements in our onboarding methodology for new IFAs, reducing onboarding timing from nearly 1 month to less than a week. With the potential market upswing in the coming quarters, we will keep focus on the quality and expansion of our sales force, both internally and externally.

讓我們轉向幻燈片 7。我們對客戶資產、活躍客戶和 IFA 總數等運營趨勢的積極勢頭感到非常滿意。 6 月份，我們的客戶資產達到了 1 萬億雷亞爾的歷史大關。由於個人投資市場份額不足 12%，我相信我們仍處於增長軌蹟的早期階段。本季度 IFA 淨增數量超過 1,000 人，總數超過 14,000 人。這源於多個因素，例如新的教育合作夥伴關係有助於僱用和培訓新的投資顧問、IFA 網絡中的流失率較低以及我們對新IFA 的入職方法的整體改進，將入職時間從近1 個月縮短到不到一周。隨著未來幾個季度市場的潛在回升，我們將繼續關注內部和外部銷售隊伍的質量和擴張。

Next to Slide 8. This positive momentum in operating trends, coupled with our cost control discipline drives the recovery in our financial results for the quarter. As I mentioned earlier, our gross revenue has improved 3% year-over-year, totaling BRL 3.7 billion. Our EBT has improved 12% year-over-year, totaling BRL 968 million and net income has improved 7% year-over-year to BRL 977 million.

幻燈片 8 旁邊。運營趨勢的積極勢頭，加上我們的成本控制紀律，推動了本季度財務業績的複蘇。正如我之前提到的，我們的總收入同比增長 3%，總計 37 億雷亞爾。我們的息稅前利潤同比增長 12%，達到 9.68 億雷亞爾，淨利潤同比增長 7%，達到 9.77 億雷亞爾。

Moving on to Slide 9. We kept making progress across our strategic initiatives. New verticals continue to grow rapidly, accounting for 11% of total revenue. We are pleased with this progress enhancing our relationships with our clients and diversifying our revenue streams. Additionally, we had the closing of Banco Modal acquisition on July 1, and it will already impact our results in the third quarter, but we do not foresee any material impact. We are very excited to have the Modal team joining us and integration is happening as I speak. Since day 1, our teams are working together to explore XP and Modal, best precise and enhance our service level and efficiency for better serving our clients.

轉到幻燈片 9。我們的戰略舉措不斷取得進展。新垂直領域繼續快速增長，佔總收入的11%。我們對這一進展感到高興，這一進展加強了我們與客戶的關係並使我們的收入來源多樣化。此外，我們已於 7 月 1 日完成對 Banco Modal 的收購，這已經對我們第三季度的業績產生了影響，但我們預計不會產生任何重大影響。我們非常高興 Modal 團隊加入我們，就在我發言時，整合正在發生。從第一天起，我們的團隊就共同努力探索 XP 和 Modal，最精確地提高我們的服務水平和效率，以便更好地為我們的客戶服務。

One of our main goals is to have everything integrated, including more downs client base using XP's backbone and capabilities by the end of this year. We believe this will provide us revenue synergies since XP's ecosystem has a strong cross-sell capability and cost avoidance over time. We will provide on our progress in the coming quarters.

我們的主要目標之一是在今年年底之前將所有內容集成在一起，包括使用 XP 的骨乾和功能來吸引更多的客戶群。我們相信，這將為我們帶來收入協同效應，因為 XP 的生態系統具有強大的交叉銷售能力，並且隨著時間的推移可以避免成本。我們將在未來幾個季度提供進展情況。

On Slide 10, let me highlight where we are in terms of long-term strategy we have discussed on previous calls. You might recall that we discussed 3 key areas of focus. First leadership in investments. We have continued to gain market share in investments throughout 2023 despite the tough macro environment, reaching BRL 1 trillion in client assets. We also had the strongest net new IFA sign-ins since the IPO further expanding and strengthening our sales force.

在幻燈片 10 中，讓我強調一下我們在之前的電話會議中討論過的長期戰略的進展情況。您可能還記得我們討論了 3 個重點關注領域。投資第一領導力。儘管宏觀環境嚴峻，2023 年我們的投資市場份額仍持續增長，客戶資產達到 1 萬億雷亞爾。自 IPO 以來，我們還擁有最強勁的 IFA 新登錄人數，進一步擴大和加強了我們的銷售隊伍。

Second, superior product offerings. Melhores Cartões named XP as the best credit card in Brazil. Considering we only launched the product in May 2021, we are especially proud of this recognition and the success we have seen in the market. Also, we launched a travel platform into our cards experience where clients receive extra investback from in-app purchase.

二是產品品質優良。 Melhores Cartées 將 XP 評為巴西最佳信用卡。考慮到我們於 2021 年 5 月才推出該產品，我們對這種認可以及我們在市場上看到的成功感到特別自豪。此外，我們還在卡體驗中推出了一個旅行平台，客戶可以通過應用內購買獲得額外的投資回報。

And third, client focus. We always put our clients' interest first. This is reflected on our NPS score that was 76 this quarter, one of the highest in the industry. We continue to differentiate ourselves in the market offering premium quality and service levels throughout our ecosystem. I believe this is one of our main competitive advantages over our peers and we are 100% focused on maintaining and even extending this advantage in the future.

第三，以客戶為中心。我們始終將客戶的利益放在第一位。這反映在我們本季度的 NPS 得分為 76 分，是業內最高的得分之一。我們繼續在整個生態系統中提供優質的質量和服務水平，從而在市場上脫穎而出。我相信這是我們相對於同行的主要競爭優勢之一，我們百分百致力於在未來保持甚至擴大這一優勢。

Now I will hand it over to Bruno to discuss this quarter's financials. Thank you.

現在我將把它交給布魯諾討論本季度的財務狀況。謝謝。

Thanks, Maffra. Good evening, everyone. It's a pleasure to be here with you again. Moving on to Slide 12. Starting with gross revenue on the left part of the slide, this quarter, we reached BRL 3.7 billion, 12% growth quarter-over-quarter and 3% growth year-over-year. The sequential growth in gross revenue was mainly led by retail, especially fixed income, which we will discuss in further detail on the next slide.

謝謝，馬夫拉。各位晚上好。很高興再次和大家在一起。轉到幻燈片 12。從幻燈片左側的總收入開始，本季度我們達到了 37 億雷亞爾，環比增長 12%，同比增長 3%。總收入的環比增長主要由零售業，特別是固定收益帶動，我們將在下一張幻燈片中進一步詳細討論。

In terms of revenue mix between segments, retail has continued to gain relevance and represented 78% of total revenue, benefiting from our long-term strategy to become a full financial service platform, especially through our new verticals. Institutional and Corporate and insurance services remain at 10% and 8%, respectively. Other revenue has been stable over time, representing around 4% to 5% of total revenues.

就細分市場之間的收入組合而言，零售業繼續獲得相關性，佔總收入的 78%，這得益於我們成為全面金融服務平台的長期戰略，特別是通過我們的新垂直領域。機構服務、企業服務和保險服務分別保持在 10% 和 8%。其他收入一直穩定，佔總收入的 4% 至 5% 左右。

On the next couple of slides, we are going deeper into retail revenue. Starting with Slide 13. When we look at our core, we can see we had an improvement in fixed income to BRL 578 million, a growth of 74% quarter-over-quarter due to higher volumes in both primary and secondary markets, and narrowing in corporate bonds credit spreads. After a tough first quarter, we had some relevant corporate credit events negatively impacting DCM activity, we saw a more normalized capital market in second quarter.

在接下來的幾張幻燈片中，我們將深入探討零售收入。從幻燈片 13 開始。當我們查看核心業務時，我們可以看到固定收益改善至 5.78 億雷亞爾，環比增長 74%，原因是一級和二級市場交易量增加，並且收窄在公司債券信用利差中。在經歷了艱難的第一季度之後，我們發生了一些對 DCM 活動產生負面影響的相關企業信貸事件，我們在第二季度看到了更加正常化的資本市場。

As expected, we also had a sequential seasonal improvement of 9% quarter-over-quarter in the Funds platform, reaching BRL 341 million due to the recognition of performance fees, which tend to be recognized at the end of every semester. Also, we had a stabilization in equities revenue in BRL 1.1 billion, flat quarter-over-quarter with lower daily average trades for equities and futures with higher volumes in structured notes.

正如預期的那樣，由於績效費的確認（通常在每學期末確認），我們的基金平台季度環比增長了 9%，達到 3.41 億雷亞爾。此外，我們的股票收入穩定在 11 億雷亞爾，環比持平，股票和期貨的日均交易量較低，結構性票據交易量較高。

Moving to Slide 14. All of our new vertical products continue to grow well, reaching a total of BRL 398 million in second quarter plus 54% year-over-year and 9% quarter-over-quarter, representing 14% of retail revenue. The main highlight of the quarter has been cards revenue, which has grown in line with TPV to BRL 232 million, a growth of 14% quarter-over-quarter and 100% year-over-year. Cards penetration in total active clients has also increased 208 basis points this quarter to approximately 24%.

轉向幻燈片 14。我們所有的新垂直產品繼續保持良好增長，第二季度總計達到 3.98 億雷亞爾，同比增長 54%，環比增長 9%，佔零售收入的 14%。本季度的主要亮點是卡收入，與 TPV 一致增長至 2.32 億雷亞爾，環比增長 14%，同比增長 100%。本季度信用卡在活躍客戶總數中的滲透率也增加了 208 個基點，達到約 24%。

Coming back to total retail revenue. We've updated this slide to include second quarter results. Few key messages. One, XP is a cyclical grower company. Core retail revenue, which is BRL 1 billion behind the peak in 2021 has potential for upside as the market recovers; and two, new verticals have a decisive role in diversifying our business. If we compare the last 12 months revenue with 2021 revenue, new verticals have increased approximately 156%, while our core has decreased 12%. In summary, potential for growth as the market recovers, plus a more resilient and diversified business model.

回到零售總收入。我們更新了這張幻燈片以包含第二季度的業績。很少有關鍵信息。第一，XP是一家週期性種植公司。核心零售收入較 2021 年峰值低 10 億雷亞爾，隨著市場復甦，有上升潛力；第二，新的垂直領域在我們業務多元化方面發揮著決定性作用。如果我們將過去 12 個月的收入與 2021 年的收入進行比較，就會發現新垂直行業增長了約 156%，而我們的核心業務下降了 12%。總而言之，隨著市場復甦，增長潛力，加上更具彈性和多元化的商業模式。

Moving on to Slide 16. Total SG&A, excluding revenues from incentives, has remained under control, reinforcing the annual guidance of BRL 5 billion to BRL 5.5 billion, leaning towards the mid to the bottom of the range. People expenses represented 72% of total SG&A in second quarter and 70% in the last 12 months, keeping the ratio between people and non-people expenses is stable over time, 70%, 30%. We expect higher SG&A in the second semester compared to the first semester due to seasonality and onetime low expenses in the first quarter, but keeping our efficiency ratio is improving as we are going to show in the next slide.

繼續看幻燈片 16。SG&A 總額（不包括激勵收入）仍處於控制之中，將年度指導從 50 億雷亞爾強化至 55 億雷亞爾，傾向於該範圍的中下線。人員費用在第二季度佔 SG&A 總額的 72%，在過去 12 個月中佔 70%，人員費用和非人員費用之間的比例隨著時間的推移保持穩定，分別為 70%、30%。由於第一季度的季節性和一度較低的費用，我們預計第二學期的銷售管理費用將高於第一學期，但保持我們的效率比率正在提高，正如我們將在下一張幻燈片中展示的那樣。

Cost discipline is key to improve our competitive advantage and the C level of XP is aligned to achieve that goal in a sustainable way. The 2 main KPIs we monitor are: last 12 months efficiency ratio, defined as SG&A ex revenue from incentives divided by net revenue; and two, compensation ratio, defined as people SG&A divided by net revenue. We rather use last 12 months than quarterly numbers to avoid seasonal impacts. Both ratios have continued its positive trend this quarter. Efficiency ratio decreasing from 40.4% to 38.3% and compensation ratio decreasing from 28.5% to 26.8%. This cost control discipline has played an important role in our operating margins, which we are going to talk on next slide.

成本紀律是提高我們競爭優勢的關鍵，XP 的 C 級別旨在以可持續的方式實現這一目標。我們監控的 2 個主要 KPI 是： 過去 12 個月的效率比，定義為 SG&A（除激勵措施外的收入）除以淨收入；第二，薪酬比率，定義為人員SG&A除以淨收入。我們寧願使用過去 12 個月的數據，而不是季度數據，以避免季節性影響。本季度這兩個比率均繼續保持積極趨勢。效率率從40.4%下降到38.3%，補償率從28.5%下降到26.8%。這種成本控制原則在我們的營業利潤中發揮了重要作用，我們將在下一張幻燈片中討論這一點。

Moving on to EBITDA. A good proxy for earnings power. This quarter reached BRL 968 million, a 12% growth year-over-year and a 19% growth quarter-over-quarter. Our EBITDA margin has also improved in the quarter, increasing 198 basis points year-over-year and 123 basis points quarter-over-quarter. This was driven by improving operating leverage and is in line with our annual guidance between 26% and 32%.

接下來是 EBITDA。盈利能力的良好代表。本季度達到 9.68 億雷亞爾，同比增長 12%，環比增長 19%。我們的 EBITDA 利潤率在本季度也有所改善，同比增長 198 個基點，環比增長 123 個基點。這是由運營槓桿改善推動的，符合我們 26% 至 32% 的年度指導。

On the next slide, our net income has also increased to BRL 977 million this quarter, up 23% quarter-over-quarter and 7% year-over-year, while our net margin has improved 213 basis points quarter-over-quarter and 91 basis points year-over-year to 27.5%. This has been a result of both top line growth and the increase in operating leverage we talked about in the past few slides.

在下一張幻燈片中，我們本季度的淨利潤也增至 9.77 億雷亞爾，環比增長 23%，同比增長 7%，淨利潤環比提高 213 個基點，同比增長 91 個基點至 27.5%。這是我們在過去幾張幻燈片中討論的收入增長和運營槓桿增加的結果。

Lastly, I would also like to highlight our return on average equity that has increased 334 basis points sequentially to 22%. As Maffra stated in the beginning of the call, we are determined to gradually increase our ROE over the next few years, both through consistent earnings growth and capital distributions to shareholders.

最後，我還想強調一下，我們的平均股本回報率已連續增長 334 個基點，達到 22%。正如 Maffra 在電話會議開始時所說，我們決心在未來幾年通過持續的盈利增長和向股東的資本分配來逐步提高股本回報率。

Now both Maffra and I would be happy to take your questions.

現在，馬夫拉和我很樂意回答您的問題。

Thanks, Bruno. So moving on to the Q&A session. We have many hands raised. So as usual, we will attend you on a first come first serve basis. The first one is Mr. Geoffrey Elliott from Autonomous.

謝謝，布魯諾。接下來進入問答環節。我們有很多人舉手。因此，像往常一樣，我們將按照先到先得的原則為您服務。第一個是來自Autonomous的Geoffrey Elliott先生。

The inflow is clearly the better this quarter than in the first quarter, but they're still quite a bit below what we were used to seeing previously. Can you give us a sense, are you seeing inflows continuing to recover? And then can you point us to a normal rate of monthly inflows that you'd expect going forward?

本季度的資金流入明顯好於第一季度，但仍遠低於我們之前看到的水平。您能否告訴我們，您是否看到資金流入繼續恢復？那麼您能否向我們指出您預計未來的正常月度資金流入率？

Geoff, this is Bruno. First, when we think about the inflows, I'd rather think about total client assets? And why is that, is total client assets surpassing the mark of BRL 1 trillion is more relevant for revenues than inflows. So that's a point important to bear in mind. Second, inflows as I have also mentioned in previous calls, it's a component of total inflows, minus outflows. In total inflows, they have been good. We had like all-time high in the last quarter, the second quarter. But so the outflows have also grown as well, bringing the net inflow to a better number than the first quarter, but is still short compared to the bull market years.

傑夫，這是布魯諾。首先，當我們考慮資金流入時，我寧願考慮客戶總資產？為什麼超過 1 萬億雷亞爾的客戶總資產與收入的相關性比與資金流入的相關性更大。所以這是需要牢記的重要一點。其次，正如我在之前的電話會議中提到的，流入是總流入減去流出的一部分。就總流入量而言，情況良好。我們在上個季度、第二個季度創下了歷史新高。但資金流出也有所增加，使得淨流入數量好於第一季度，但與牛市年份相比仍然較短。

We believe that individuals, they are lagging in the process of bringing money into riskier assets. We are not there yet. We don't know when we are going to get there, but it's a cyclical part of the business. So yes, we, in the future, expect inflows to grow. But in the short term, we don't have a guidance, and my statement is look at total client assets more than to inflows.

我們認為，個人在將資金投入風險資產的過程中處於滯後狀態。我們還沒有到那一步。我們不知道什麼時候能到達那裡，但這是業務的周期性部分。所以，是的，我們預計未來資金流入將會增長。但在短期內，我們沒有指導，我的說法是更多地關注客戶總資產而不是流入。

And just so -- good evening, this is Thiago. Just to complement Bruno here. One way I like to think about is we are at the very beginning of the easing cycle in Brazil. And if you think about the next, let's say, 1, 2, 3 years, in our opinion, we will have another good cycle for investments, a good macro environment in the next years. And for us, it's more important when you look the scenario then quarter-by-quarter, okay? What I'm trying to say here is, we believe we are very well positioned with the company very organized to capture this good momentum that we have ahead. So it's hard to say if the net inflow will change this quarter, next quarter, in 3 quarters. But we believe that at some point -- with this macro scenario ahead of us, at some point, we'll have a good environment for investments again.

就這樣——晚上好，我是蒂亞戈。只是為了補充布魯諾。我喜歡思考的一種方式是，我們正處於巴西寬鬆週期的開始階段。如果你考慮一下接下來的一年、兩年、三年，我們認為，未來幾年我們將有另一個良好的投資週期，良好的宏觀環境。對我們來說，當你查看場景時比逐季度查看更重要，好嗎？我想說的是，我們相信我們處於非常有利的位置，公司組織得非常有組織，可以抓住我們未來的良好勢頭。所以很難說本季度、下季度、3個季度淨流入是否會發生變化。但我們相信，在某個時刻，在這種宏觀情景擺在我們面前的情況下，在某個時刻，我們將再次擁有良好的投資環境。

Next one in line Eduardo Rosman from BTG.

下一位來自 BTG 的愛德華多·羅斯曼 (Eduardo Rosman)。

Can you hear me?

你能聽到我嗎？

Yes, we can.

我們可以。

Yes, we can.

我們可以。

So congrats on the numbers. I have 2 questions. The first 1 is regarding your market share growth. The company has expressed the goal of doubling its AUC. But when we look to your market share in the core high-income segment, you have almost 20%. So can you provide more details about your plans for expansion in this segment as well as in the high net worth and also the lower income segment? This would be the number 1 question. And the second question relates to your ambitions beyond investments. What's the company plan? How aggressive you are willing to expand in loans, for instance, at the bank? Anything here would be appreciated, right? So thanks a lot, and again, congrats on the numbers.

所以恭喜你的數字。我有 2 個問題。第一個是關於您的市場份額增長。該公司已表達了將 AUC 翻倍的目標。但當我們看看你們在核心高收入細分市場的市場份額時，你們幾乎擁有 20% 的份額。那麼，您能否提供有關該細分市場以及高淨值和低收入細分市場擴張計劃的更多詳細信息？這是第一個問題。第二個問題與您在投資之外的野心有關。公司的計劃是什麼？例如，您願意在銀行擴大貸款規模嗎？這裡的任何東西都會受到讚賞，對嗎？非常感謝，並再次祝賀這些數字。

The way I like to think about investments, as we mentioned, we have 11% market share of individuals, okay, and 8% if you consider companies, okay? Itaú is the leader in the market with more than double that we have, okay? So -- and when you look at the different segments, if you look high net worth clients we have, I would say, about 5% to 6% in the middle, closer to the 20 that you mentioned. And if you go to the retail clients, we have 2%, okay. And the way of serving these clients in these different segments, they are completely different, okay? One easy way to think about it, if you go to high net worth clients, you have an account load of 20, in the middle 100 to 200, at the bottom almost 2,000, okay?

正如我們提到的，我喜歡考慮投資的方式，我們擁有 11% 的個人市場份額，好吧，如果你考慮公司的話，我們擁有 8% 的市場份額，好嗎？ Itaó 是市場的領導者，其擁有量是我們的兩倍多，好嗎？所以，當你看看不同的細分市場時，如果你看看高淨值客戶，我想說，我們的客戶大約有 5% 到 6% 位於中間，接近你提到的 20 個。如果你去零售客戶，我們有 2%，好吧。在這些不同的細分市場中，為這些客戶提供服務的方式是完全不同的，好嗎？一種簡單的思考方式是，如果您面向高淨值客戶，您的賬戶負載為 20，中間為 100 到 200，底部幾乎為 2,000，好嗎？

So the strategy that we have for the different segments are completely different, okay? We start at the middle of this pyramid, okay, the affluent clients. So that's why we have 20 -- almost 20% market share, but we believe we can continue to grow here, okay? And of course, we have plans on the upper part and the lower part. The lower part, we have what we call digital first. Here basically is how you use technology, CRM, intelligence, data to have higher account load per banker, but at the same time, giving a very good service compared to the market, okay?

所以我們針對不同細分市場的策略是完全不同的，好嗎？我們從金字塔的中間開始，好吧，富裕的客戶。這就是為什麼我們擁有 20%——幾乎 20% 的市場份額，但我們相信我們可以在這裡繼續增長，好嗎？當然，我們對上半部分和下半部分都有計劃。下面的部分，我們稱之為數字優先。這里基本上是如何使用技術、CRM、智能、數據來為每個銀行家提供更高的賬戶負載，但同時提供與市場相比非常好的服務，好嗎？

In the middle is more of the same. And at the top we are talking about high net worth clients, so here different from the other parts, it's more personalization, more value added, so different strategies, and we believe we have the right path for these 3 different segments, okay? Completely different financials, KPIs, completely different ways of servicing costs and so on, okay?

中間的情況比較相似。在頂部，我們談論的是高淨值客戶，所以這裡與其他部分不同，它更個性化，更多附加值，所以不同的策略，我們相信我們對這三個不同的細分市場有正確的路徑，好嗎？完全不同的財務狀況、KPI、完全不同的服務成本方式等等，好嗎？

And the second part about the new business, they are -- we call them new verticals, okay. And we mentioned pension, credit, insurance and banking basically. But we have a lot more than that, that our new verticals inside the company, okay? Our asset management is growing very rapidly. We have the FX business, we have corporate, we have many other business that we don't give a highlight for them, but they are new, okay?

關於新業務的第二部分是——我們稱之為新垂直領域，好吧。我們基本上提到了養老金、信貸、保險和銀行業。但我們擁有的遠不止這些，我們公司內部的新垂直領域，好嗎？我們的資產管理業務發展非常迅速。我們有外匯業務，我們有企業業務，我們還有許多其他業務，我們沒有重點介紹它們，但它們是新的，好嗎？

So if you look the percentage of new verticals that didn't exist 2 years ago, now they represent 11%, okay, and growing 50% year-over-year. So we believe we can continue this pace for a longer period of time because the penetration is still very low. If you look at insurance, for example, 1% penetration because we just launched the products, if you look credit 1%, if you look account -- checking accounts, but looking the principal accounts, it's close to 1%. The product that's most penetrated is credit cards, 19%, okay? So we have a cross-sell metric here that we look very close. Imagine that we have classified from 1 to 7 products, okay? It's the way we look if the sales people have faced internal advisers and so.

因此，如果你看看 2 年前不存在的新垂直行業的百分比，現在它們佔 11%，好吧，並且同比增長 50%。因此，我們相信我們可以在更長的時間內繼續這種步伐，因為滲透率仍然很低。例如，如果你看看保險，滲透率為1%，因為我們剛剛推出了產品；如果你看看信貸，滲透率為1%；如果你看看賬戶——支票賬戶，但看看本金賬戶，滲透率接近1%。滲透率最高的產品是信用卡，19%，好嗎？所以我們這裡有一個交叉銷售指標，我們看起來非常接近。想像一下，我們已經對 1 到 7 種產品進行了分類，好嗎？如果銷售人員面對內部顧問等，我們就會這樣看待。

This number is 1.55 today. So it's still very low because these new verticals, they are new, okay? So in our opinion here, we have a lot room like to continue penetrate the current customers we have, okay?

今天這個數字是 1.55。所以它仍然很低，因為這些新的垂直領域，它們是新的，好嗎？因此，我們認為，我們有很大的空間繼續滲透現有的客戶，好嗎？

If I just may add, Maffra, to your point. The way we like to think, Rosman, so to your question about our ambitions, we have strong ambitions for the long term, that's for sure. but we also believe a lot in execution and focus. And as Maffra appointed, many new products and service that we have launched in the past 2 to 3 years, we believe there is a lot of work to do to cross-sell and upsell in our ecosystem with our existing clients. And just bear in mind that we also added with Modal acquisition 500,000, given or taken new clients into our ecosystem as of today. So we are talking about a little bit more than 4.5 million total clients with that low penetration that Maffra just mentioned. So I think it's -- there is a strong ambition, but we need to go brick-by-brick executing.

馬夫拉，我可以補充一下你的觀點嗎？羅斯曼，我們喜歡思考的方式，所以對於你關於我們的抱負的問題，我們對長期抱有強烈的抱負，這是肯定的。但我們也非常相信執行力和專注力。正如 Maffra 所指定的那樣，我們在過去 2 到 3 年中推出了許多新產品和服務，我們相信在我們的生態系統中與現有客戶進行交叉銷售和追加銷售還有很多工作要做。請記住，截至今天，我們還通過 Modal 收購增加了 500,000 個新客戶，或將新客戶帶入我們的生態系統。因此，我們談論的是 Maffra 剛才提到的略高於 450 萬的低滲透率客戶總數。所以我認為，我們有雄心壯志，但我們需要一步一步地執行。

Next one in line is Thiago Batista from UBS. Thiago, can you hear us?

下一位是瑞銀集團的蒂亞戈·巴蒂斯塔。蒂亞戈，你能聽到我們說話嗎？

Can you hear me?

你能聽到我嗎？

Yes, now I can.

是的，現在我可以了。

Yes, now we can.

是的，現在我們可以了。

Okay. Sorry, guys. So I have 2 questions. And sorry for the issue. The first one, I'm trying to understand the dynamics for the earnings for next year for XP. And do you see room for further improvement in the efficiency ratio of the company next year? Probably next year, we'll see a better top line. So my question is, we will see this operating leverage in the company? And the second 1 about Modal, I think Maffra already mentioned that Modal should be 0 impact in the earnings in the short term. But do you believe that Modal should be accretive for EPS in 2024? Or because of all the change that we saw in the market this should take a little bit longer to see a really positive impact from Modal on the XP earnings?

好的。對不起大家。所以我有兩個問題。對於這個問題，我們深表歉意。第一個，我試圖了解 XP 明年的收益動態。您認為明年公司效率還有進一步提升的空間嗎？也許明年，我們會看到更好的收入。所以我的問題是，我們會在公司看到這種運營槓桿嗎？第二個1是關於Modal的，我認為Maffra已經提到Modal在短期內對盈利的影響應該是0。但您認為 Modal 應該會在 2024 年增加 EPS 嗎？或者由於我們在市場上看到的所有變化，應該需要更長的時間才能看到 Modal 對 XP 收益產生真正的積極影響？

Thank you, Batista for the question. So about your point on the efficiency ratio. The way I like to see is, as we mentioned, we believe we have a better macro outlook for the future, okay? Again, it will take some time because it's not a 50 bps cut that will make a total difference when you think about retail clients. Of course, if you think about capital markets, institutional clients, it change faster, okay? We start to see follow-ons in the previous months. So -- but retail clients will take more time, okay? But when we look this positive cycle for the future. We believe we can have higher revenue growth rates in the future, okay? We will have the company ready to capture this growth.

謝謝巴蒂斯塔的提問。關於您關於效率比的觀點。正如我們所提到的，我希望看到的是，我們相信我們對未來有更好的宏觀前景，好嗎？同樣，這需要一些時間，因為當你考慮零售客戶時，50 個基點的降息不會產生完全的影響。當然，如果你考慮資本市場、機構客戶，它變化得更快，好嗎？我們在前幾個月開始看到後續行動。所以——但是零售客戶需要更多時間，好嗎？但當我們展望未來時，就會出現這種良性循環。我們相信未來我們可以有更高的收入增長率，好嗎？我們將讓公司做好迎接這一增長的準備。

On the other part, we spent the last, I would say, 2 years, 1.5 years inside the company, improving the level of governance, the way we manage the company, we have created the XP management system. So we have created a lot of tools and controls that we didn't have in the past to manage the company. So I believe we are better prepared today for the -- this new cycle than we were like a few years back, and we have done a cost control. So when you put together like a good cycle that we probably will have ahead combined with cost control and better management and governance tools in the company, I believe we can have a very high operational leverage in the future.

另一方面，我們在公司內部花了最後的，我想說2年，1.5年的時間，提高了治理水平，我們管理公司的方式，我們創建了XP管理系統。因此，我們創建了許多過去沒有的工具和控制措施來管理公司。因此，我相信我們今天比幾年前為這個新周期做好了更好的準備，並且我們已經進行了成本控制。因此，當你把我們可能會擁有的良好週期與公司的成本控制和更好的管理和治理工具相結合時，我相信我們未來可以擁有非常高的運營槓桿。

So that's what we have been talking about with investors, we believe we can increase our EBITDA margins close to the high part of the guidance in the next years, we can increase our ROE close to, I would say, 30 in the next years. But again, it's something that will take time, 1 year, 2 year, 3 years, that's the time frame that we are looking here.

這就是我們一直在與投資者談論的內容，我們相信我們可以在未來幾年將 EBITDA 利潤率提高到接近指導的高位，我們可以在未來幾年將 ROE 提高到接近 30。但同樣，這需要時間，1年、2年、3年，這就是我們在這裡尋找的時間框架。

Yes. And then about Modal, yes, we believe it's going to be accretive for our EPS on '24. We have been executing the integration that started last month. And our goal here is to finalize all the integration until the end of this year. So we are going to give updates in the next quarters. But, yes, it's accretive and the momentum of the market getting better, again, individuals take longer. So it's going to be a gradual improvement over time. But Modal integrated with XP should benefit from that.

是的。然後關於莫代爾，是的，我們相信它將增加我們 24 年的每股收益。我們一直在執行上個月開始的整合。我們的目標是在今年年底之前完成所有整合。因此，我們將在接下來的幾個季度提供更新。但是，是的，它是增值的，而且市場的勢頭正在變得更好，同樣，個人需要更長的時間。因此，隨著時間的推移，這將是逐步改善的。但與 XP 集成的 Modal 應該會從中受益。

And just to give you one example to make it tangible, what Maffra explained about the operating leverage of our business, I'd like to use the Funds Platform as an example. The Funds Platform in the second quarter of last year had a total of BRL 175 billion of client assets. We all know that this year has been a tough year for the Funds industry as a whole. Our Funds Platform has reached at the end of second quarter, BRL 222 billion of client assets. Performance fees -- so we have more client assets in the Funds Platform as of today than we had 1 year ago.

為了給您提供一個具體的例子，Maffra 解釋了我們業務的運營槓桿，我想使用基金平台作為例子。去年第二季度，該基金平台的客戶資產總額為1750億雷亞爾。眾所周知，今年對於整個基金行業來說是艱難的一年。截至第二季度末，我們的基金平台客戶資產已達 2,220 億雷亞爾。績效費——因此，截至今天，我們基金平台上的客戶資產比一年前還要多。

But performance fees in the second quarter of last year was much higher than this quarter. We decreased the performance fees by 70%. So that's 1 example of the potential of the operating leverage that this business has. As the market recovers, if we get, for example, performance fees in the next semesters to come, we have more client assets and this -- it's just the tax and it's straight to the bottom line. We don't have to hire one single individual to make it happen.

但去年第二季度的績效費用遠高於本季度。我們將績效費降低了 70%。這就是該業務擁有的運營槓桿潛力的一個例子。隨著市場復甦，如果我們在下個學期獲得績效費，我們就會擁有更多的客戶資產，這只是稅收，直接影響利潤。我們不需要雇傭一個人來實現這一目標。

Next one on the line is Mr. Tito Labarta from Goldman Sachs.

下一位接通的人是高盛 (Goldman Sachs) 的蒂托·拉巴塔 (Tito Labarta) 先生。

A couple of questions also. One, just first on the results. Looking at the other revenue line in particular, BRL 167 million although up modestly compared to 1Q, but 1Q was impacted, I think, almost BRL 70 million from Medicana, so I was a little surprised that, that line did not maybe improve potentially more. It was actually lower if you factor in the Medicana's impact. So if you can give any color on what happened there and how that should evolve from here?

還有幾個問題。一，首先是結果。特別是看看其他收入線，1.67 億雷亞爾雖然與第一季度相比略有上升，但我認為第一季度受到了影響，Medican 幾乎達到了7000 萬雷亞爾，所以我有點驚訝的是，該線可能沒有改善更多的潛力。如果考慮到 Medicana 的影響，它實際上會更低。那麼，您是否可以對那裡發生的事情以及從這裡開始如何發展進行說明？

And second question, Bruno and Maffra, you talked about increasing ROE from here, kind of the main drivers, but also how much can you potentially increase that ROE? And what are your latest thoughts on the capital returns, whether buybacks, dividends and curious what you're thinking there?

第二個問題，布魯諾和馬夫拉，你們談到了從這裡開始增加淨資產收益率，這是主要驅動因素，但你們可以將淨資產收益率增加多少？您對資本回報的最新想法是什麼，無論是回購、股息還是好奇您的想法？

Okay. I will start with the other revenue. The other revenue is everything that is not in the segments that we highlight. So we can have many different things there, Tito. And that's why when I made the presentation, I said it's stable over time between 4% and 5% of total revenue. It hasn't changed that much. Specifically, in the second quarter, we did have a negative impact in revenues because of this pack that we had in our balance sheet. It didn't happen and there was a negative impact, a little bit more than BRL 40 million that it's a financial instrument, so impacted other revenue because it was not related to the other segments. So it can happen from time to time, those different types of impacts either positive or negative. So that's what happened in the second quarter.

好的。我將從其他收入開始。其他收入是指不屬於我們重點關注的細分市場的所有收入。所以我們可以有很多不同的東西，蒂托。這就是為什麼當我做演示時，我說隨著時間的推移，它佔總收入的比例穩定在 4% 到 5% 之間。它並沒有改變那麼多。具體來說，在第二季度，由於我們資產負債表中的這一包，我們確實對收入產生了負面影響。但它並沒有發生，並且產生了負面影響，它是一種金融工具，影響了 4000 萬雷亞爾多一點，因此影響了其他收入，因為它與其他細分市場無關。因此，這種情況可能會時不時地發生，這些不同類型的影響可能是積極的，也可能是消極的。這就是第二季度發生的事情。

And about the capture about the ROE, I believe, as Bruno mentioned on the presentation before, we have a mix of 2 things. We already mentioned the positive cycle, the cost control and so on that will probably impact and increase profits in the next quarters. But we also have a huge excess of capital. So today, we have more than BRL 5 billion. And we have a Basel Index of, I would say, close to 24%, okay? So it's a combination of earnings growth and adjust in the capital structure for the future, okay? So that's the combination that will bring us from, let's say, the current 22 to something closer to 30.

關於 ROE 的捕獲，我相信，正如布魯諾之前在演講中提到的那樣，我們有兩件事的混合。我們已經提到了正循環、成本控制等等，這些都可能會影響和增加未來幾個季度的利潤。但我們也有大量過剩的資本。因此，今天我們的資金已超過 50 億雷亞爾。我想說，我們的巴塞爾指數接近 24%，好嗎？所以這是盈利增長和未來資本結構調整的結合，好嗎？這樣的組合將使我們從目前的 22 人變成接近 30 人。

That's helpful. Any color just on when you could return some of that capital and the former returning it again through buybacks or dividends?

這很有幫助。當你可以返還部分資本，而前者通過回購或股息再次返還時，有什麼顏色嗎？

Second semester, we already mentioned in the first quarter that we would return to shareholders either through share buyback or dividends or both at least 50% of payout ratio that we did last year. We have already returned BRL 960 million in the first semester of this year, and we are going to return more in the second semester. But we have not decided yet the number. So whenever we do, we are going to announce to the market.

第二學期，我們在第一季度就已經提到，我們將通過股票回購或股息或二者兼而有之的方式回報股東，至少是去年派息率的50%。今年第一學期我們已經返還了9.6億雷亞爾，第二學期我們將返還更多。但我們還沒有決定這個數字。因此，每當我們這樣做時，我們都會向市場宣布。

So now we have Daniel Vaz from Credit Suisse.

現在我們邀請了瑞士信貸銀行的丹尼爾·瓦茲 (Daniel Vaz)。

Can you hear me?

你能聽到我嗎？

Yes, we can.

我們可以。

Yes.

是的。

So first, congrats on the results. I would like to go on the revenues or on the results part. We talked to some IFAs last month, so which pointed to strong recovery in revenues in June, right? So I'm trying to do a quarter breakdown in months. So how strong could June be compared to April, right, so it could help us to understand how results could have reached already in the second quarter, considering like a full potential from June results? Or any details you could share with us in relative terms, it would be good as well?

首先，祝賀結果。我想談談收入或結果部分。上個月我們與一些 IFA 進行了交談，這表明 6 月份的收入強勁復甦，對吧？所以我試圖在幾個月內進行季度細分。那麼，六月與四月相比有多強，對吧，這樣它可以幫助我們了解第二季度的業績如何，考慮到六月業績的全部潛力？或者您可以與我們分享相對而言的任何細節，這也很好？

And second question, SBC expenses came in BRL 30 million to BRL 40 million below Q4 or Q3, right? So this -- should this BRL 130 million from Q2 be more normalized levels considering the rightsizing you did in people or it had some still cancellation effects from Q1?

第二個問題，SBC 支出比第四季度或第三季度低 3000 萬雷亞爾到 4000 萬雷亞爾，對吧？那麼，考慮到您在人員方面所做的調整，第二季度的 1.3 億巴西雷亞爾是否應該是更正常化的水平，或者它仍然對第一季度產生一些取消效應？

Yes. Regarding your question about the months, we don't think it's the best way to analyze our business. There is a lot of volatility between months, even between quarters. So to take June compared to May or May compared to April and extrapolate that, it can be misleading. So I would not recommend that.

是的。關於你關於月份的問題，我們認為這不是分析我們業務的最佳方式。幾個月之間甚至季度之間都存在很大的波動。因此，將 6 月與 5 月進行比較，或者將 5 月與 4 月進行比較並推斷，這可能會產生誤導。所以我不會推薦這樣做。

To your question about the share-based compensation. We don't have a guidance, but I would say that the pattern around BRL 130 million to BRL 150 million per quarter, in other words, BRL 500 million to BRL 600 million per year. It sounds reasonable. It depends on the price action as well because there is a component of the share-based compensation that is related to the price actions. The other part is hedged. So it's hard to state an exact number. But yes, second quarter was a more normalized level than first quarter, which we announced that it had like one-off positive effects reducing the share-based compensation and should not be extrapolated for the rest of the year.

關於你關於股權激勵的問題。我們沒有指導方針，但我想說，這種模式約為每季度 1.3 億至 1.5 億雷亞爾，換句話說，每年 5 億至 6 億雷亞爾。聽起來很有道理。它也取決於價格行為，因為基於股票的薪酬中有一部分與價格行為相關。另一部分是對沖的。所以很難說出一個確切的數字。但是，是的，第二季度的水平比第一季度更加正常化，我們宣布，它具有一次性的積極影響，減少了基於股票的薪酬，不應推斷今年剩餘時間。

And now we have the last question from Neha from HSBC.

現在我們有來自匯豐銀行 Neha 的最後一個問題。

Very quickly on the impact from lower rates. Should we expect any negative impacts as policy rates go down especially on the financial income part of the revenues? And second question is on competition. Any change in competitive dynamics either more aggressive or competition softening? Any trends that you could highlight?

很快就受到較低利率的影響。隨著政策利率下降，特別是對收入中的金融收入部分，我們是否應該預期會產生負面影響？第二個問題是關於競爭。競爭動態是否有任何變化，要么更加激進，要么競爭減弱？您可以強調什麼趨勢嗎？

Yes. Regarding, Neha, the lower rates, we more than welcome. It's a good macro environment, and it probably will generate a positive tailwind in our core business. Reminding that is a gradual effect because individual investors, they tend to be lag in that process, but it's positive. I don't see financial revenues being jeopardized by lower interest rates because market activity probably will enhance. So we're going to have a very good environment as we had in the ablative cycle.

是的。關於 Neha，我們非常歡迎較低的費率。這是一個良好的宏觀環境，它可能會給我們的核心業務帶來積極的推動力。提醒一下，這是一個漸進的影響，因為個人投資者往往會滯後於這個過程，但這是積極的。我認為較低的利率不會損害財務收入，因為市場活動可能會增強。因此，我們將擁有一個非常好的環境，就像我們在消融週期中一樣。

Okay. Neha, and about the second part of your question, competition. As we would like to mention, in Brazil, the concentration is still very high, 80% of the investments is still inside the same 5 big banks, okay? And when you look at the macro environment that we had in the past 12 to 24 months, they were very positive for these banks because they can offer some products that we don't have here as LCIs, LCAs, free of tax and paying 13.75%. So it's a very, very good macro environment for these kind of products. The banks, they issued more than BRL 1 trillion in the last 12 months, okay?

好的。 Neha，關於你問題的第二部分，競爭。我們想說的是，在巴西，集中度還是很高的，80%的投資還是在同一個5大銀行里面，好嗎？當你看看過去 12 到 24 個月的宏觀環境時，他們對這些銀行非常有利，因為他們可以提供一些我們沒有的產品，如 LCI、LCA，免稅並支付 13.75 %。所以對於這類產品來說，這是一個非常非常好的宏觀環境。銀行在過去 12 個月裡發行了超過 1 萬億雷亞爾，好嗎？

So -- but this money is -- most of them is with a very high liquid, most of them daily liquid. So once the interest rates starts to go down, but again, it's not 50 bps that will make a difference. At some point, the individual investors, they will realize that they are not making 1% a month anymore with a very low risk with daily liquids and they will change the products, change the portfolio, reallocate the money. So it happens in all the other cycles and will happen again.

所以——但這筆錢——其中大部分都是流動性非常高的，其中大部分是日常流動性。因此，一旦利率開始下降，但同樣，50 個基點也不會產生影響。到了某個時候，個人投資者會意識到，他們每月的收益不再是 1%，而且每天的流動性風險非常低，他們會改變產品、改變投資組合、重新分配資金。所以它在所有其他週期中都會發生，並且還會再次發生。

We have today more than BRL 2 trillion on this bank, CGs, LCIs, LCAs and so on. And we believe we can benefit once the interest rates are lower, okay? So that's for me is the biggest point about competition in the last 12 to 14 months, okay, the level of interest rates and the bank products.

今天，我們在這家銀行、CG、LCI、LCA 等方面擁有超過 2 萬億雷亞爾。我們相信，一旦利率降低，我們就能受益，好嗎？所以對我來說，這就是過去 12 到 14 個月競爭的最大問題，好吧，利率水平和銀行產品。

Perfect. If I can ask, at what level of rates do you see money moving back into equities or new intros coming in, maybe at around 8%, 9% or even 10% would be sufficient to see the move in your view?

完美的。如果我可以問一下，您認為資金會以什麼水平回流到股票或新推出的產品中，也許 8%、9% 甚至 10% 左右就足以看到您認為的走勢？

Hard to say, it's hard to say, Neha. But again, today, imagine that you are a Brazilian investor, you can invest at 13.25% with very low risk daily liquidity. So you can make 1 point-something percent a month, okay, doing nothing. So it will take some time, okay, for people to say, okay, I cannot do. I don't have this level of interest rate anymore, so I have to take some more risk. I have to buy longer products. I have to buy a lower credit, okay? But we have products in Brazil with FIGC, guarantee, this kind of stuff. So at some point, they will move.

很難說，很難說，尼哈。但今天，假設您是一名巴西投資者，您可以以 13.25% 的利率進行投資，每日流動性風險非常低。所以你每個月可以賺百分之一的錢，好吧，什麼都不做。所以人們需要一些時間才能說，好吧，我做不到。我已經沒有這個水平的利率了，所以我必須冒更多的風險。我必須購買更長的產品。我必須購買較低的信用額，好嗎？但我們在巴西有與FIGC合作的產品，有保證，諸如此類的東西。所以在某個時候，他們會移動。

Thank you for your question. It was the last one. So we would like to thank you all for participating in the call. We will be available the IR team to discuss the results with you later, and have a good night, everyone.

謝謝你的問題。這是最後一張了。因此，我們要感謝大家參與此次電話會議。我們稍後會讓 IR 團隊與您討論結果，祝大家晚安。