美國沃那多房產 (VNO) 2023 Q4 法說會逐字稿

Good morning and welcome to the Vornado Realty Trust Fourth Quarter 2023 Earnings Call. My name is Andrea and I will be your operator for today's call. This call is being recorded for replay purposes. (Operator Instructions).

早安，歡迎參加沃納多房地產信託 2023 年第四季財報電話會議。我的名字是 Andrea，我將擔任您今天通話的接線生。此通話正在錄音以供重播。 （操作員說明）。

I will now turn the call over to Mr. Steve Borenstein, Senior President and Corporate Counsel. Please go ahead.

我現在將電話轉給資深總裁兼公司法律顧問 Steve Borenstein 先生。請繼續。

Welcome to Vornado Realty Trust Fourth Quarter Earnings Call. Yesterday afternoon, we issued our fourth quarter earnings release and filed our annual report on Form 10-K with the Securities and Exchange Commission. These documents, as well as our supplemental financial information packages are available on our website, www.vno.com, under the Investor Relations section. In these documents and during today's call, we will discuss certain non-GAAP financial measures. Reconciliations of these measures to the most directly comparable GAAP measures are included in our earnings release, Form 10-K and financial supplement.

歡迎參加沃納多房地產信託第四季財報電話會議。昨天下午，我們發布了第四季度收益報告，並向美國證券交易委員會提交了 10-K 表格年度報告。這些文件以及我們的補充財務資訊包可在我們的網站 www.vno.com 的投資者關係部分取得。在這些文件和今天的電話會議中，我們將討論某些非公認會計準則財務措施。這些指標與最直接可比較的 GAAP 指標的調整包含在我們的收益發布、10-K 表格和財務補充資料中。

Please be aware that statements made during this call may be deemed forward-looking statements and actual results may differ materially from these statements due to a variety of risks, uncertainties and other factors. Please refer to our filings with the Securities and Exchange Commission, including our annual report on Form 10-K for the year ended December 31, 2023, for more information regarding these risks and uncertainties. The call may include time-sensitive information that may be accurate only as of today's date. The company does not undertake a duty to update any forward-looking statements.

請注意，本次電話會議期間發表的聲明可能被視為前瞻性聲明，由於各種風險、不確定性和其他因素，實際結果可能與這些聲明有重大差異。請參閱我們向美國證券交易委員會提交的文件，包括截至 2023 年 12 月 31 日的年度 10-K 表格年度報告，以了解有關這些風險和不確定性的更多資訊。通話中可能包含對時間敏感的訊息，這些訊息僅截至今天才準確。該公司不承擔更新任何前瞻性陳述的義務。

On the call today from management for our opening comments are Steven Roth, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer; and Michael Franco, President and Chief Financial Officer. Our senior team is also present and available for questions.

今天，董事長兼首席執行官史蒂文·羅斯 (Steven Roth) 在管理層的電話會議上發表了開場評論。以及總裁兼財務長邁克爾·弗蘭科 (Michael Franco)。我們的高級團隊也出席並回答問題。

I will now turn the call over to Steven Roth.

我現在將把電話轉給史蒂文·羅斯。

Thank you, Steve and good morning, everyone. We ended the year on a high note with a good fourth quarter. The quarter and the year were right on target. Although as expected, our results were negatively affected by the dramatic increase in interest rates. This will carry through next year but I expect will reverse as interest rates recede. It's important to note that our business has continued to perform well. Michael will review the quarter and the year with you in a moment.

謝謝史蒂夫，大家早安。我們以出色的第四季度業績結束了這一年。本季和全年的目標都正確。儘管如預期，我們的業績受到利率大幅上漲的負面影響。這種情況將持續到明年，但我預計隨著利率下降，這種情況將會逆轉。值得注意的是，我們的業務持續表現良好。邁克爾稍後將與您一起回顧本季和本年度。

This year, our New York City office leasing team won the Gold Medal. In the fourth quarter, we leased 840,000 square feet. For the full year, we leased 2.1 million square feet. Average starting rents for the quarter and the year were record-breaking at $100 and $99 per square foot, respectively. In more gold medal stuff, for the year, we leased 1.2 million square feet at over $100 a square foot rents. The office leasing market is on the foothills of recovery but the capital markets still remain challenged and are even tightening -- and even tightening slightly as we speak. Foreclosures and givebacks are still in front of us and, therefore, so is the opportunity.

今年，我們的紐約市辦公室租賃團隊榮獲金獎。第四季度，我們租賃了 840,000 平方英尺。全年，我們租賃了 210 萬平方英尺。本季和全年的平均起始租金分別創紀錄，為每平方英尺 100 美元和 99 美元。在更多的金牌項目中，這一年我們以每平方英尺 100 美元以上的租金租用了 120 萬平方英尺。辦公室租賃市場正處於復甦階段，但資本市場仍面臨挑戰，甚至正在收緊，甚至在我們發言時略有收緊。取消抵押品贖回權和回饋仍然擺在我們面前，因此，機會也是如此。

As Michael and I have said on the last few calls, retail in New York City has bottomed and is recovering rapidly. While rents have a way to go to reach peak pricing of 5 years ago, we feel very good about the activity level and strength of the retail recovery. And there's more big retail news. In 2 blockbuster deals announced in December, major global luxury retailers, Prada and Kering bought prime Upper Fifth Avenue properties for their own use as stores. One deal was $835 million and the other was $963 million. So in round numbers, call it about $900 million for a half block front on Upper Fifth Avenue. So we now have the most important retailers in the world investing aggressively in real estate for their own use on the most important retail street in our country. This is only happening in the most important world cities, New York, London, Paris.

正如邁克爾和我在過去幾次電話中所說，紐約市的零售業已經觸底並且正在迅速復甦。雖然租金距離達到 5 年前的峰值定價還有很長的路要走，但我們對零售業復甦的活動水平和力度感到非常滿意。還有更多重大零售新聞。在 12 月宣布的兩筆重磅交易中，全球主要奢侈品零售商 Prada 和 Kering 收購了上第五大道的黃金地段，將其用作自己的商店。其中一筆交易金額為 8.35 億美元，另一筆交易金額為 9.63 億美元。因此，以整數計算，上第五大道半個街區的面積約為 9 億美元。因此，現在世界上最重要的零售商正在我國最重要的零售街上積極投資自用房地產。這種情況只發生在世界上最重要的城市，紐約、倫敦、巴黎。

Now we take this mark very personally because we own in our retail joint venture, so 52% our share, a 26% market share of available Upper Fifth Avenue in 4 blocks -- half blocks -- in 4 half blocks of similar AAA quality. I'm sure you can all do the math here. We also own in that same joint venture, the 2 best full blocks. So that would be 4 half blocks in Times Square and we have the largest sign business in town.

現在，我們非常重視這個標誌，因為我們擁有我們的零售合資企業，所以我們擁有52% 的份額，在上第五大道的4 個街區（半個街區）中，在類似AAA 質量的4 個半街區中，我們擁有26% 的市佔率。我相信你們都可以在這裡進行數學計算。我們還在同一家合資企業中擁有兩個最好的完整區塊。那麼這將是時代廣場的 4 個半街區，我們擁有鎮上最大的招牌業務。

It's been a long ride and we announced just about completed construction of our renovation of the double block-wide PENN 2 and we are about 90% complete with the surrounding plazas. The huge plazas in front of PENN 2, combined with the 33rd Street promenade and the 33rd Street setback at PENN 1 have created an enormous open public space, which I might say will be quite majestic. Directly across Seventh Avenue, the Hotel Penn is now down to the ground, creating our PENN 15 site. All this, taken together is for sure a game changer. If you are a shareholder of Vornado or are interested in Vornado, this is an immediate must go see.

這是一段漫長的旅程，我們宣布雙街區 PENN 2 的改造工程即將完成，周圍廣場的改造工程已完成約 90%。 PENN 2 前面的巨大廣場，與 PENN 1 的 33 街長廊和 33 街退縮相結合，創造了一個巨大的開放公共空間，我可以說是相當雄偉的。位於第七大道對面的 Penn 酒店現已落成，成為我們的 PENN 15 場地。所有這些加在一起肯定會改變遊戲規則。如果您是 Vornado 的股東或對 Vornado 感興趣，請立即前往查看。

The world turns in funny ways and creates opportunity. The retail apocalypse is now passing, having handily survived the e-commerce attack. But now we have a CBD office apocalypse involving the work from home threat and the total blacklisting of office in the capital markets. In the end, the major cities of America will continue to grow and thrive, with New York, our hometown leading that. Office workers will gather in offices with their colleagues rather than be alone at home at their kitchen table. And in the end, the supply-demand equation will come into balance and bring on a landlords' market (inaudible) by a total cutoff of new supply. You can't build anything in these frozen capital markets and in New York, the evaporation or irrelevance of, say, 100 million square feet of old, obsolete, unrentable space. This cycle is not over yet. There remain challenges but for forward-looking investors, the time is now.

世界以有趣的方式轉變並創造機會。零售業的末日現已過去，輕鬆地從電子商務的攻擊中倖存下來。但現在我們面臨著 CBD 辦公室的災難，涉及在家工作的威脅和資本市場上辦公室的全面黑名單。最終，美國的主要城市將繼續發展和繁榮，其中我們的家鄉紐約處於領先地位。辦公室工作人員將與同事聚集在辦公室，而不是獨自留在家中的廚房餐桌旁。最終，供需方程式將達到平衡，並透過完全切斷新供應來引入房東市場（聽不清楚）。在冰凍的資本市場和紐約，你無法建造任何東西，比如說，一億平方英尺的舊的、過時的、不可出租的空間會蒸發或變得無關緊要。這個週期還沒結束。挑戰仍然存在，但對於有遠見的投資者來說，現在正是時候。

My colleagues and I at Vornado are optimistic and excited. Now over to Michael.

我和沃納多的同事都感到樂觀和興奮。現在輪到麥可了。

Thank you, Steve and good morning, everyone. Though 2023 was a challenging year, our core office and retail businesses proved to be resilient. Our overall New York business same-store cash NOI was up a healthy 2.8% for the year and was up 2% in the fourth quarter compared to last year. Comparable FFO as adjusted was $2.61 per share for the year, down $0.54 from 2022, largely due to increased interest expense, which is in line with the expectations that we previously communicated.

謝謝史蒂夫，大家早安。儘管 2023 年是充滿挑戰的一年，但我們的核心辦公室和零售業務被證明具有彈性。我們紐約業務的整體同店現金 NOI 全年健康成長 2.8%，第四季較去年成長 2%。今年調整後的可比 FFO 為每股 2.61 美元，比 2022 年下降 0.54 美元，主要是由於利息支出增加，這與我們先前溝通的預期一致。

Fourth quarter comparable FFO as adjusted was $0.63 per share compared to $0.72 per share for last year's fourth quarter, a decrease of $0.09. Overall, the core business was flat and the entire decrease in the quarter was driven by increased G&A and lower FFO from sold properties. We have provided a quarter-over-quarter bridge in our earnings release and in our financial supplement.

第四季調整後的可比 FFO 為每股 0.63 美元，與去年第四季的每股 0.72 美元相比，減少了 0.09 美元。總體而言，核心業務持平，本季整體下降是由於 G&A 增加和已售出物業 FFO 減少所致。我們在收益發布和財務補充中提供了季度環比的橋樑。

We recorded $73 million of noncash impairment charges during the fourth quarter, primarily related to joint venture assets that we intend to exit in the next few years. It should be noted that in accordance with NAREIT's FFO definition, this impairment charge is not included in FFO.

我們在第四季度記錄了 7,300 萬美元的非現金減損費用，主要與我們打算在未來幾年退出的合資資產有關。需要注意的是，根據NAREIT的FFO定義，該減損費用不包含在FFO中。

Now turning to 2024. While forecasting remains challenging in the current economic environment, we expect our 2024 comparable FFO to continue to be impacted by higher interest rates and be down from 2023, which already seems to be in the market. We project a roughly $0.30 impact from higher net interest expense due to extending hedges at higher rates on our variable debt. Additionally, there will be a ding to earnings as we turn over certain spaces. Primarily at 1290 Avenue of the Americas, 770 Broadway and 280 Park Avenue. This is temporary as we have already leased up a good chunk of this space but the GAAP earnings in these leases won't begin in 2024.

現在轉向 2024 年。雖然在當前經濟環境下預測仍然具有挑戰性，但我們預計 2024 年可比 FFO 將繼續受到利率上升的影響，並低於 2023 年，而 2023 年似乎已經上市。我們預計，由於以更高的利率擴大對可變債務的對沖，淨利息支出增加將產生約 0.30 美元的影響。此外，當我們移交某些空間時，收入也會受到影響。主要位於美洲大道 1290 號、百老匯 770 號和公園大道 280 號。這是暫時的，因為我們已經租賃了大部分空間，但這些租賃的 GAAP 收益不會在 2024 年開始計算。

We expect 2024 will represent the trough in our earnings and for earnings to increase meaningly from there as rates trend down and as income from the lease up of PENN and other vacancies come online.

我們預計 2024 年將是我們盈利的低谷，隨著利率趨勢下降以及 PENN 租賃收入和其他空缺職位的上線，利潤將從此大幅增長。

Now turning to the leasing markets. New York is clearly leading the leasing charge nationally as the city continues to experience strong employment growth. 2023 leasing in Manhattan ended on a strong note. And as we enter 2024, market conditions are more favorable than any year since the pandemic ensued in March 2020, providing support for the continued recovery in Class A office market. The economy is healthy, most employers are back in the office, at least 3 to 4 days per week. Competitive sublease space is thinning and the market for higher-end space is tightening, fueled by a decline in the new development pipeline. Now that companies have greater clarity on their space needs, tenant demand is growing, which is translating into more leasing transactions.

現在轉向租賃市場。隨著紐約市就業持續強勁成長，該市的租賃費用顯然在全國處於領先地位。曼哈頓 2023 年租賃市場表現強勁。進入2024年，市場狀況比2020年3月疫情爆發以來的任何一年都更加有利，為甲級辦公室市場的持續復甦提供了支撐。經濟健康，大多數雇主都回到辦公室，每週至少工作 3 到 4 天。由於新開發案的減少，競爭性轉租空間正在減少，高端空間市場正在緊張。現在，公司對自己的空間需求更加清晰，租戶需求不斷增長，這轉化為更多的租賃交易。

With new supply evaporating, tenants are increasingly focused on the highest quality redeveloped Class A buildings near Penn Station and Grand Central Station, as they seek to attract and retain talent. Activity in the best buildings has been strong with vacancy at less than 10% and rents rising. Our best-in-class portfolio has been a major beneficiary of this trend, the stats bear out this, that we consistently outperform the marketplace, as Steve mentioned earlier.

隨著新供應的蒸發，租戶越來越關注賓夕法尼亞車站和中央車站附近最高品質的重建甲級建築，因為他們尋求吸引和留住人才。最好的建築的活動一直很強勁，空置率低於 10%，租金也在上漲。我們一流的投資組合是這一趨勢的主要受益者，統計數據證實了這一點，正如史蒂夫之前提到的，我們的表現始終優於市場。

In 2023, we leased 2.1 million square feet and average starting rents of industry-leading $99 per square foot with 1.2 million feet at triple-digit starting rents. Importantly, we made significant strides in addressing our upcoming vacancy in tenant roll at some of our most important assets with leases with the following important customers. Citadel at 350 Park Avenue, PJT Partners and GIC at 280 Park Avenue, King & Spalding, Selendy Gay and Cushman & Wakefield at 1290 Avenue of the Americas and Shopify at 85 Tenth Avenue.

2023 年，我們租賃了 210 萬平方英尺，平均起始租金為每平方英尺 99 美元，處於行業領先地位，其中 120 萬平方英尺的起始租金為三位數。重要的是，我們在解決一些最重要資產即將出現的租戶空缺方面取得了重大進展，並與以下重要客戶進行了租賃。 Citadel 位於 350 Park Avenue，PJT Partners 和 GIC 位於 280 Park Avenue，King & Spalding、Selendy Gay 和 Cushman & Wakefield 位於 1290 Avenue of the Americas，Shopify 位於 85 Tenth Avenue。

Additionally, at PENN 1, we maintained strong momentum with another 300,000 square feet of deals, highlighted by new leases with Samsung and Canaccord Genuity. Just as a reminder, since we started our redevelopment efforts in the PENN District, we have leased over 2.5 million square feet of office at average starting rents of $94 per square foot, a significant increase on what these buildings achieved previously.

此外，在 PENN 1，我們保持了強勁的勢頭，達成了另外 300,000 平方英尺的交易，其中與三星和 Canaccord Genuity 簽訂的新租約凸顯了這一點。提醒一下，自從我們開始在 PENN 區進行重建工作以來，我們已經以每平方英尺 94 美元的平均起始租金租賃了超過 250 萬平方英尺的辦公室，比這些建築之前的租金有了顯著增長。

Our fourth quarter activity led the overall market's leasing volume upturn as we completed 17 leases comprising 840,000 feet at starting rents of $100 per square foot. Even with our very strong close to 2023, our leasing pipeline heading into 2024 is robust. We currently have almost 300,000 feet of leases in negotiation with another 2 million feet in our pipeline at different stages of negotiation, including a balanced mix of new and renewal deals.

我們第四季的活動帶動了整個市場租賃量的上升，我們完成了 17 項租賃，面積達 840,000 英尺，起始租金為每平方英尺 100 美元。儘管我們在接近 2023 年時表現強勁，但進入 2024 年的租賃管道依然強勁。目前，我們有近 30 萬英尺的租賃合約正在談判中，另外 200 萬英尺的租賃合約正處於不同談判階段，包括新合約和續約合約的平衡組合。

Turning to the capital markets now. While the financing markets for office remain very challenging as banks continue to deal with problem loans, we are starting to see some stability with the Fed potentially cutting rates in 2024. Fixed income investors are constructive again on high-quality office and unsecured bond spreads for office have tightened significantly over the past couple of quarters.

現在轉向資本市場。儘管隨著銀行繼續處理問題貸款，辦公室融資市場仍然非常具有挑戰性，但我們開始看到聯準會可能在2024 年降息，從而帶來一定的穩定性。固定收益投資者再次對高品質辦公室和無擔保債券利差持建設性態度。辦公室在過去幾季顯著收緊。

That being said, we are still away from a healthy mortgage financing market in office. And most office loans will have to be restructured or extended as they aren't refinanceable at their current levels. More broadly, lenders have no appetite for construction financing across most property types which should keep a lid on new supply. Conversely, the financing market for retail is now wide open, now that the sector has bottomed.

話雖如此，我們仍然距離健康的抵押貸款融資市場還很遙遠。大多數辦公室貸款將不得不重組或延期，因為它們在目前的水平上無法再融資。更廣泛地說，貸方對大多數房地產類型的建設融資沒有興趣，這應該會限制新的供應。相反，零售業融資市場現已完全開放，因為該行業已經觸底。

As always, we continue to remain focused on maintaining balance sheet strength. Even in this challenging financing environment, our balance sheet remains in very good shape with strong liquidity. We are actively working with our lenders and making good progress pushing out the maturities on our loans, which mature this year. Our current liquidity is a strong $3.2 billion, including $1.3 billion of cash and restricted cash and $1.9 billion undrawn under a $2.5 billion revolving credit facilities.

一如既往，我們繼續專注於維持資產負債表的實力。即使在充滿挑戰的融資環境下，我們的資產負債表仍保持良好狀態，流動性強勁。我們正在積極與貸方合作，並在推動今年到期的貸款到期方面取得良好進展。我們目前的流動性高達 32 億美元，其中包括 13 億美元現金和限制性現金以及 25 億美元循環信貸額度下未提取的 19 億美元。

With that, I'll turn it over to the operator for Q&A.

這樣，我會將其轉交給接線員進行問答。

(Operator Instructions). And our first question comes from Steve Sakwa of Evercore ISI.

（操作員說明）。我們的第一個問題來自 Evercore ISI 的 Steve Sakwa。

I guess first question for Michael or maybe Glen, just kind of on that, I guess, pipeline, the 2 million square feet that you talked about, could you maybe tell us a little bit how much of that is for kind of the existing portfolio, how much of that is for the development such as PENN 2? And in that discussion, can you just talk about the upcoming expirations in '24? Are there any large known move-outs this year that you might know about that you could share with us?

我想邁克爾或格倫的第一個問題，我想，管道，你談到的 200 萬平方英尺，你能告訴我們其中多少是現有投資組合的一部分嗎？ ，其中有多少用於PENN 2 等開發？在討論中，您能談談即將到來的 24 年到期嗎？今年您可能知道有哪些已知的大型搬遷活動可以與我們分享嗎？

Steve, it's Glen. So of the pipeline that we mentioned in the opening remarks, there is a good spread in there, that's including PENN 1 and PENN 2. So activity continues to strengthen at both properties. The reception at PENN 2 has been better than excellent, tour volume is off the charts. Everyone thinks this thing is a wow, nothing they've ever seen. So the pipeline does include activity at both PENN 2 and PENN 1.

史蒂夫，我是格倫。因此，我們在開場白中提到的管道中，有一個很好的分佈，其中包括 PENN 1 和 PENN 2。因此，這兩個項目的活動繼續加強。 PENN 2 的接待情況非常好，巡演量也達到了歷史最高水準。每個人都認為這東西很神奇，他們從未見過。因此，管道確實包括 PENN 2 和 PENN 1 的活動。

As it relates to the bulge in '24 the expirations that we were facing, we've attacked it, I think, very well thus far. At 1290, we've already leased more than 50% of the space that was expiring in '24 between (inaudible) and Equitable. At 280 Park, we re-leased over 200,000 feet of the 275,000 feet expiring 24 and '25 and put away PJT, which was expiring in '26. On 770 Broadway, we continue to be in the market with -- now that building, of course, is more of a big tech, big media building but we expect that building to perform as we move along here, given its great location and great bones.

由於它與我們面臨的 24 年到期膨脹有關，我認為到目前為止我們已經很好地解決了這個問題。在 1290，我們已經租出了 24 年（聽不清楚）和 Equitable 之間到期的 50% 以上的空間。在 280 Park，我們重新租賃了 275,000 英尺的 200,000 英尺，將於 24 年和 25 年到期，並收起將於 26 年到期的 PJT。在百老匯770 號，我們繼續進入市場——當然，現在這座建築更多的是一座大型科技、大型媒體建築，但鑑於其優越的地理位置和卓越的性能，我們預計這座建築將在我們在這裡前進時表現出色。骨頭。

Just a quick follow-up. Are you saying 770, does that have a Meta expiration that...?

只是快速跟進。你是說 770，它的 Meta 過期時間是…嗎？

It does. It is a Meta expiration of 275,000 feet in June of this year.

確實如此。這是今年 6 月 275,000 英尺的 Meta 到期。

Of what's left, the rest is Meta.

剩下的，剩下的就是 Meta。

Yes. So, Meta, after the expiration, Steve, we'll have another 500,000 feet long term in the building.

是的。所以，Meta，到期後，史蒂夫，我們將在大樓內再擁有 50 萬英尺的長期期限。

Okay. Great. And then just on the second question, I noticed that you pushed out the stabilization of PENN 2 by a year, which certainly makes sense just given the challenging market today. But you guys, also kept the -- I guess you kept the yield unchanged. So just can you kind of help us think through that? And I guess, from an accounting perspective, if leasing doesn't occur this year somewhat soon, does that begin to create a potential earnings drag in '25 just from the lack of ability to continue to capitalize costs on that project?

好的。偉大的。關於第二個問題，我注意到你們將 PENN 2 的穩定性推遲了一年，考慮到當今充滿挑戰的市場，這當然是有道理的。但你們也保持了——我猜你們保持了產量不變。那你能幫助我們思考一下嗎？我想，從會計角度來看，如果今年不盡快進行租賃，是否會因為缺乏繼續資本化該項目成本的能力而開始在 25 年產生潛在的盈利拖累？

Steve, it's Michael. The answer with respect to stabilization is, we did push it out to '26. It's taken a little longer to get going on take-up there. But as Glen just referenced, the reaction as it's gotten to delivery here has been outstanding. So we expect that to pick up. But that being said, we're trying to be realistic as well and so we pushed it out. The yield is based on the [$759 million] odd cost, does not include carry. So that's base NOI over the original cost. So that's a simple math for you. We feel it'll drag beyond '25, if it's not done, I guess, potentially but we feel good about the pipeline and what we have baked in right now.

史蒂夫，這是麥可。關於穩定性的答案是，我們確實將其推遲到了 26 年。那裡的接收工作需要更長的時間。但正如格倫剛才提到的，它到達這裡後的反應非常出色。所以我們預計這一情況將會好轉。但話雖這麼說，我們也試圖現實一點，所以我們把它推遲了。收益率基於[7.59 億美元]的零散成本，不包括利差。這就是原始成本之上的基本 NOI。這對你來說是一個簡單的數學計算。我們認為，如果沒有完成，它可能會拖到 25 年之後，我想，有可能，但我們對管道和我們現在完成的工作感覺良好。

The next question comes from Michael Griffin of Citi.

下一個問題來自花旗銀行的麥可‧格里芬。

Steve, I know in your opening remarks, you talked about the stressed opportunities you're seeing out there in the market. Can you maybe quantify kind of what those opportunities could be? And when you look at kind of capital allocation priorities, would it make sense to take advantage of those, maybe relative to buying back your stock or starting new developments?

史蒂夫，我知道您在開場白中談到了您在市場上看到的充滿壓力的機會。您能否量化這些機會可能是什麼？當您考慮資本配置優先事項時，利用這些優先事項是否有意義，也許相對於回購股票或開始新的開發專案？

There are 3 opportunities, buying back our stock is the first one or usage of capital allocation. The second is paying off debt and deleveraging a little bit. And the third is offensively acquiring new assets. We are only interested in acquiring new assets at distressed prices. And I think as I've said, the foreclosures and the givebacks have not really -- have been at an accelerating -- accelerated pace, so the opportunities are still in front of us. I don't have any comments as to what we might do. But I think our #1 priority is the debt that we need to -- the debt expiries. And then after that, we go on the assets. The stock, we will react opportunistically to the stock price over time.

有3個機會，回購股票是第一個或資金配置的用途。第二是償還債務並稍微去槓桿。第三是積極收購新資產。我們只對以低價收購新資產感興趣。我認為正如我所說，取消抵押品贖回權和返還並沒有真正加速，因此機會仍然在我們面前。對於我們可能做什麼，我沒有任何評論。但我認為我們的第一要務是我們需要的債務——債務到期。然後，我們繼續處理資產。對於股票，我們會隨著時間的推移對股價做出機會主義反應。

Great. And then I was wondering if you could comment on the recent news about a rent reduction from a tenant at 650 Madison. I know you only own 20% of this building but is there a worry that we should extrapolate this in terms of kind of future rent roll and maybe a sign of things to come from a leasing and rent perspective?

偉大的。然後我想知道您是否可以對最近關於麥迪遜 650 號租戶減租的消息發表評論。我知道您只擁有這棟大樓的 20%，但是否擔心我們應該根據未來的租金記錄來推斷這一點，也許從租賃和租金的角度來看，這可能是一個跡象？

The interesting thing is, some of the industry papers, they always get it right. But this case, they got it dead wrong. I think the facts are that the $60 number was a net number. So if you gross it up, it's about $100 a foot. Glen is telling me, it's a little less than $100 a foot but -- so it's in the low $90s, I guess.

有趣的是，一些行業論文，他們總是說對了。但在這件事上，他們卻大錯特錯了。我認為事實是 60 美元這個數字是一個淨數字。所以如果你加起來的話，大約是每英尺100美元。格倫告訴我，每英尺不到 100 美元，但——所以我猜它在 90 美元左右。

The next question comes from Camille Bonnel of Bank of America.

下一個問題來自美國銀行的卡米爾·博內爾。

Can you talk a bit more to the retention levels of the overall portfolio in 2023? How did it track versus your expectations? And with the lack of new supply on the horizon, do you think this will pick up in '24?

您能否多談談 2023 年整體投資組合的保留水準？與您的預期相比，它的表現如何？由於即將出現新供應不足，您認為這種情況會在 24 年回升嗎？

It's Glen. Our retention rate was strong. As I mentioned, the leasing that we've gotten done, the renewals, that thing went better than we originally had thought at the beginning of '23. And in our pipeline that we referenced, we have very good activity on forward lease expirations. We're definitely finding that CEOs, the decision makers of these tenants who are expiring forward, are now coming to us earlier than they have been over the past few years because there's less and less quality blocks of space available to them. So I would say definitively, the renewal program is stronger than it had been. We're in very good talks with many of our tenants going forward and I think it's showing in our leasing activity numbers, especially with the volume we had during '23 and what we're now seeing in '24 already.

是格倫。我們的保留率很高。正如我所提到的，我們已經完成的租賃、續約，事情比我們在 23 年初最初想像的要好。在我們提到的管道中，我們在遠期租賃到期方面有非常好的活動。我們確實發現，首席執行官，這些即將到期的租戶的決策者，現在比過去幾年更早來找我們，因為可供他們使用的優質空間越來越少。所以我可以肯定地說，更新計劃比以前更強大。我們正在與許多租戶進行良好的談判，我認為這在我們的租賃活動數據中得到了體現，特別是我們在 23 年期間的交易量以及我們現在在 24 年已經看到的情況。

You make a good point. I think you said with the lack of supply. So the dynamics which are going to cause the office market, they get very, very healthy, pretty soon or you can't build anything in this capital market. So there will be no new supply coming on stream. The supply of buildings that were built in the last cycle over the last number of years, that space is all being eaten up. And the next trend is that tenants seem to want high-quality buildings, which are either brand new or buildings which have been completely retrofitted, which is -- and so the older buildings, and I think I said the stock of those are somewhere around 100 million to 150 million square feet. Those are just obsolete and irrelevant and will evaporate. So what we're dealing with is not a 400 million square foot marketplace, we're dealing with something which is somewhere in the high 200 million square foot, which is a totally different supply-demand equation.

你說的對。我認為你說的是供應不足。因此，辦公市場的動態很快就會變得非常非常健康，否則你就無法在這個資本市場上建造任何東西。因此不會有新的供應投產。過去幾年中上一個週期建造的建築物的供應，這些空間都被吃光了。下一個趨勢是，租戶似乎想要高品質的建築，這些建築要么是全新的，要么是經過完全改造的建築，也就是舊建築，我想我說過這些建築的庫存在附近1億至1.5億平方英尺。這些都是過時的、無關緊要的，並且將會消失。因此，我們面對的不是 4 億平方英尺的市場，我們面對的是 2 億平方英尺的市場，這是一個完全不同的供需方程式。

Appreciate the color there. And given retail seems to be a bit of a bright spot in your portfolio, can you also talk about how your leasing pipeline is looking for that side of the business?

欣賞那裡的顏色。鑑於零售似乎是您投資組合中的亮點，您能否談談您的租賃管道如何尋找這方面的業務？

Sure. I appreciate you recognizing that retail is a bright spot. I think it feels like investors wrote it off and with everything that's happened in the marketplace, forgotten that we still own the most and the highest quality retail in New York City, as Steve alluded to in his opening remarks. So these are scarce property assets. I think the value is being recognized. We've talked about the last couple of quarters and it continues in our leasing pipeline. We got activity across the board, really on all the spaces. Where there's vacancy or rollover occurring, we have tenant activity, in some cases, multiple tenants for those spaces. And rents are clearly rebounding. So I would just sort of say, stay tuned. We're optimistic in terms of what's coming down the pipe based on what we're working on right now.

當然。我很感謝您認識到零售業是一個亮點。我認為，就像史蒂夫在開場白中提到的那樣，投資者感覺就像市場上發生的一切一樣，投資者忘記了我們仍然擁有紐約市最多、最高品質的零售店。所以這些都是稀缺的房地產資產。我認為價值正在被認可。我們已經討論了過去幾個季度的情況，並且它仍在我們的租賃管道中繼續。我們在所有領域都開展了全面的活動。當出現空置或展期時，我們會有租戶活動，在某些情況下，這些空間會有多個租戶。租金正在明顯反彈。所以我只想說，請繼續關注。根據我們目前正在進行的工作，我們對即將發生的事情感到樂觀。

There is definitely a finite supply of the highest quality retail space, which is what the marketplace wants. And then I hope you noticed, I have a new financial metric for retail, which is called half block price. And we got a lot of half blocks in the best place.

最優質的零售空間的供應肯定是有限的，這正是市場所需要的。然後我希望你注意到，我有一個新的零售財務指標，稱為半塊價格。我們在最好的地方得到了很多半塊。

I appreciate that. And just finally, on the G&A side, you've managed to control those costs quite well since the pandemic but it did pick up last year due to some additional stock expense. Is this a reoccurring event going forward? And are there any key considerations for '24 that will keep your G&A at the current or higher levels? Just for instance, less capitalized interest from your development program now that PENN 1 is out of the pool.

我很感激。最後，在一般行政費用方面，自大流行以來，您已經成功地很好地控制了這些成本，但由於一些額外的庫存費用，去年的成本確實有所上升。這是重複發生的事件嗎？ '24 是否有任何關鍵考慮因素可以使您的 G&A 保持在當前或更高水平？舉例來說，既然 PENN 1 已退出池，您的開發計畫的資本化利息就會減少。

No, capitalized interest will be comparable. G&A, some of that will roll off given that was a onetime event. But I think what you're referencing generally is the compensation plans put in place which we felt important to retain our talent in a difficult environment. And so we implemented those, 1 in June, heavily tied to -- entirely tied to stock performance over the next 3, 4 years. And if the shareholders do quite well, then the employees will do quite well. So that expense was elevated in '23. And that will start to, I think, normalize as we get into this year.

不，資本化利息具有可比性。 G＆A，鑑於這是一次性事件，其中一些將會滾動。但我認為您一般指的是製定的薪酬計劃，我們認為這對於在困難的環境中留住人才非常重要。因此，我們在 6 月實施了這些措施，與未來 3、4 年的股票表現密切相關——完全相關。如果股東做得很好，那麼員工也會做得很好。因此，23 年的支出增加。我認為，隨著今年的到來，這種情況將開始正常化。

Tom, how many years are we writing off the expense for the comp plan?

湯姆，我們要沖銷補償計畫的費用多少年？

So it's 4 years (inaudible) accelerated.

所以加速了 4 年（聽不清楚）。

So, say it again...

那麼，再說一次…

(inaudible) accelerated.

（聽不清楚）加速。

So the expense we're writing off the equity comp plan that we issued in June is over a 4-year period. So the G&A will benefit enormously shortly as that rolls off. And I think I said in my remarks, you climb the mountain and then you go to the other side of the mountain. So the rise in interest rates had penalized our earnings, actually pretty substantially. That is going to reverse somewhere as the government begins to reduce rates, which they will. And then similarly, well, I guess that's the big -- but those are the 2 -- that's the big thing.

因此，我們沖銷 6 月發布的股權補償計畫的費用超過了 4 年。因此，隨著該計劃的實施，一般行政費用將很快受益匪淺。我想我在演講中說過，你爬上山，然後走到山的另一邊。因此，利率的上升實際上對我們的收入造成了相當大的影響。隨著政府開始降低利率（他們會這麼做的），這種情況將會在某個地方逆轉。同樣，我想這才是最重要的──但那是兩個──這才是最重要的。

Now similarly, Michael said that our earnings were going to be hit or dinged, I think, was his word, by turnover independent from the (inaudible) and expiry -- lease expiry of that. Once again, those spaces will fill up, income will come on board. So these are temporary reductions in our earnings which will absolutely reverse.

同樣，邁克爾說，我認為，他的話，我們的收入將受到與（聽不清楚）和租約到期無關的營業額的打擊或削弱。再次，這些空間將被填滿，收入將隨之而來。因此，這些只是我們收入的暫時減少，這絕對會逆轉。

The next question comes from John Kim of BMO.

下一個問題來自 BMO 的約翰金 (John Kim)。

Given all your commentary on street retail and how it's recovered, the pricing has been very strong. Are you going to be looking to sell into this strength? Or do you think market rents are going to improve? Or is this really just telling us to update our -- and the estimates?

鑑於您對街頭零售及其復甦方式的所有評論，定價非常強勁。您打算利用這種優勢賣出嗎？或者您認為市場租金會改善嗎？或者這真的只是告訴我們更新我們的估價？

Hi, John. Well, the first thing is we're enjoying the bounce back from the retail. I mean, retail had a target on its back threatened by e-commerce, et cetera. And that has all evaporated and now retail has become the vogue. We believe that the asset prices of the assets that we own has increased dramatically from the bottom. And we may take advantage of those prices by selling assets from year-to-year, from here every once in a while. We've already sold a chunk of assets that we really thought were not part of our core. So we've sold some, we may well sell some more and we're absolutely convinced that rents are going to rise. Will they rise to the peak pricing that they were 5 years ago? Probably not but they're certainly going to rise from here.

你好，約翰。嗯，首先我們正在享受零售業的反彈。我的意思是，零售業有一個受到電子商務等威脅的目標。現在這一切都消失了，零售業也成為時尚。我們認為我們所擁有的資產的資產價格已經從底部大幅上漲。我們可以透過每年出售資產來利用這些價格，每隔一段時間就從這裡出售資產。我們已經出售了大量我們認為不屬於我們核心的資產。所以我們已經賣了一些，我們很可能會賣更多，我們絕對相信租金將會上漲。他們的定價會升至 5 年前的高峰嗎？可能不會，但他們肯定會從這裡崛起。

Okay. Do you think you'll get the same pricing you got originally when you established that joint venture? In other words, have its pricing and assets reached peak level from...?

好的。您認為您會得到與最初建立合資企業時相同的價格嗎？換句話說，它的定價和資產是否已經達到頂峰水準…？

We're delighted with the pricing that we were able to achieve in our last joint venture. We're not going to speculate on what the pricing will be.

我們對上一家合資企業能夠實現的定價感到滿意。我們不會猜測定價是多少。

John, it's -- that's speculation. I think if you look at the pricing that Prada and Kering paid and Steve talked about the half blocks. And you analyze what our portfolio could be worth, then it's not a stretch to say that we're back at those levels or will get back to those levels, right? Now -- and who knows over time.

約翰，這是──那是猜測。我想如果你看看普拉達和開雲集團支付的定價，史蒂夫談到了半個街區。當你分析我們的投資組合的價值時，那麼可以毫不誇張地說，我們已經回到了這些水平，或者將回到這些水平，對嗎？現在——誰知道隨著時間的推移會怎樣。

But I think what you're seeing is, I think the most important thing is, you have 2 of the most important retailers in the world who are saying Fifth Avenue is critically important to us. We want to be there forever. We are prepared to pay a meaningful price to be there. And I think the history of these things is, the animal spirits get going. You don't think that other retailers are behind them saying, maybe we need to make sure we have a place on Fifth and secure our position. So I don't think it's a stretch to think that these aren't the last 2 transactions that occur on Fifth.

但我認為你所看到的是，我認為最重要的是，世界上兩家最重要的零售商都說第五大道對我們至關重要。我們希望永遠在那裡。我們準備好付出有意義的代價才能到達那裡。我認為這些事情的歷史是，動物精神開始發展。你不認為其他零售商會支持他們說，也許我們需要確保我們在第五大道上佔有一席之地並確保我們的地位。因此，我認為可以毫不誇張地說，這些不是第五天發生的最後兩筆交易。

And Michael, you mentioned an impairment that you've taken this quarter related to joint venture assets you're looking to exit. Is it this retail joint venture that you're discussing? Are there other assets? And if so, which ones are they?

邁克爾，您提到了本季與您希望退出的合資企業資產相關的減損。您正在討論的是這家零售合資企業嗎？還有其他資產嗎？如果是的話，它們是哪些？

Yes, not the retail. Retail, the worst is past us, as we've said. Now these were just a handful of smaller -- generally, they're really all office assets, they're in joint venture. The accounting treatment, as you guys should know well by now, given the Street retail events, the accounting treatment, the impairment methodology is much different from joint ventures than for wholly owned assets. And this is a handful of assets that we intend to exit over the next 2 to 3 years and that results in a different accounting approach and thus the impairment. It's an accounting convention, what the ultimate proceeds will be realized, TBD. But again, it relates to a handful of smaller assets.

是的，不是零售。正如我們所說，零售業最糟糕的時期已經過去。現在這些只是少數較小的——一般來說，它們實際上都是辦公室資產，它們是合資企業。考慮到街頭零售事件，會計處理，你們現在應該很清楚了，合資企業的會計處理和減損方法與獨資資產有很大不同。這是我們打算在未來 2 到 3 年內退出的少數資產，這會導致採用不同的會計方法，從而產生減損。這是一個會計慣例，最終收益將實現多少，待定。但同樣，它與少數較小的資產有關。

But there is no doubt that in this cycle, values have fallen. So when interest rates go from 3.5% to 8% that has an enormous effect on value. And so therefore, I'm very pleased that the impairments were as small as they were actually.

但毫無疑問，在這個週期中，價值是下降的。因此，當利率從 3.5% 升至 8% 時，會對價值產生巨大影響。因此，我很高興這些損害與實際情況一樣小。

And just to confirm, this does not include 1290 or 555 Cal?

順便確認一下，這不包括 1290 或 555 Cal？

No.

不。

That's correct.

這是正確的。

The next question comes from Dylan Burzinski of Green Street.

下一個問題來自 Green Street 的 Dylan Burzinski。

Okay. Just 2 quick ones on occupancy for both the office and retail side of things. So it sounds like for New York office, that occupancy should bottom throughout 2024. And as you guys have started -- already leased up some of the move-outs that -- it should see a pretty swift recovery as we look out into 2025 and beyond? Is that sort of a fair characterization?

好的。就辦公室和零售方面的入住率而言，只有 2 個快速資訊。因此，聽起來紐約辦公室的入住率應該會在2024 年觸底。正如你們已經開始的那樣——已經租出了一些搬出的辦公室——當我們展望2025 年時，它應該會看到相當迅速的復甦，超過？這樣的描述公平嗎？

It's Glen. I think that's fair. I think you'll see it dip over the coming quarters based on what we talked about earlier. And based on the pipeline, we'll come right back up. I think it's fair what you characterize it. Yes.

是格倫。我認為這是公平的。根據我們之前討論的內容，我認為您會在未來幾個季度看到它下降。根據管道，我們將立即恢復。我認為你對它的描述是公平的。是的。

Probably flattish for '24 though overall.

總體而言，24 年可能持平。

Just a word there on -- hang on, hang on, just a word about occupancy. So the market occupancy is in the high teens. So our occupancy is, give or take, around 90% (inaudible) south of 90%. If you look back over our history, our normal occupancy is a hair over 95%, 96%, they call it 96%. The difference between 96% and 100% is kind of like structural vacancy, you never get to 100% on a large over 20 million square foot portfolio. So our occupancy is really the difference between -- our vacancy is really the difference between 96% and 90%, let's say 6%, which we think is -- we can do better, we will do better but we think that's pretty good performance in a soft market. Now the next thing is that when we ramped up the space, as the markets revert to normal, from 90% to 96%, that's a very significant increase in our earnings. So we have that in front of us for sure.

就一句話——等一下，等一下，只是關於入住的一句話。因此，市場佔有率在十幾歲左右。因此，我們的入住率大約是 90%（聽不清楚），略高於 90%。如果你回顧我們的歷史，我們正常的入住率是95%以上，96%，他們稱之為96%。 96% 和 100% 之間的差異有點像結構性空缺，在超過 2000 萬平方英尺的大型投資組合中，你永遠無法達到 100%。因此，我們的入住率實際上是- 我們的空置率實際上是96％ 和90％ 之間的差異，比方說6％，我們認為- 我們可以做得更好，我們會做得更好，但我們認為這是相當不錯的表現在疲軟的市場。現在接下來的事情是，當我們擴大空間時，隨著市場恢復正常，從 90% 到 96%，我們的收入將出現非常顯著的成長。所以我們肯定有這個。

Great. And I think that kind of sort of leads into my next question, is on the retail side of things. As we look at the portfolio today, I think in your disclosure, you guys say, occupancy is high 70s, pre-COVID you were mid-90s. I guess just, how do we think about the recovery there given some of the comments that you guys laid out regarding the leasing pipeline?

偉大的。我認為這引出了我的下一個問題，是零售方面的問題。當我們今天審視投資組合時，我認為在你們的披露中，你們說，入住率是 70 多歲，而在新冠疫情之前，你們是 90 多歲。我想，鑑於你們對租賃管道提出的一些評論，我們如何看待那裡的復甦？

Well, the retail occupancy is really sort of an anomaly. It includes the Manhattan Mall, JCPenney (inaudible), who vacated made a couple of years ago. And that's 11 points of occupancy. Is that right? And what's the next -- what's the second one, Tom?

嗯，零售店的入住率確實有點反常。其中包括幾年前騰空的曼哈頓購物中心（JCPenney）（聽不清楚）。這就是 11 個入住點。是對的嗎？下一個是什麼──第二個是什麼，湯姆？

We have Farley, the retail there.

我們有 Farley，那裡的零售店。

And then Farley, we have (inaudible) on the Ninth Avenue side, so between those 2, we're somewhere in the probably mid-80s.

然後法利，我們（聽不清楚）在第九大道一側，所以在這兩者之間，我們大概處於 80 年代中期。

The next question comes from Vikram Malhotra of Mizuho.

下一個問題來自瑞穗銀行的 Vikram Malhotra。

Just, I want to just go back to your comment about FFO troughing in '24. So just 2 clarifications to what you've said first was the Facebook lease, 770, is it -- was it clear that the 200,000 or so square foot expiring, they're going move out but then the rest is there long term, #1. And #2, could we just roughly quantify the move-outs you mentioned, what is the FFO impact this year to that?

只是，我想回到你對 24 年 FFO 低谷的評論。因此，對於您首先所說的 Facebook 租約，只有 2 個澄清，是嗎？很明顯，大約 200,000 平方英尺即將到期，他們將搬出，但其餘的將長期存在，# 1. #2，我們能否粗略地量化一下您提到的遷出情況，今年 FFO 對此有何影響？

On the first question, the remaining Meta 500,000 feet is long term. That's correct.

關於第一個問題，剩餘的 Meta 500,000 英尺是長期的。這是正確的。

Right. So the -- yes, so the 270,000 feet is just one component this year. And the remainder, Vikram -- but we don't give guidance, right? There's a number of ins and outs. Yes, you can just quantify the specific 3 situations we mentioned but there's other things that are going on as well. So I don't want to isolate and say, on these 3, this is the impact because that doesn't give the full picture. Net-net, we expect it to be negative. How big? We have to see what transpires across the whole portfolio.

正確的。所以——是的，所以 270,000 英尺只是今年的一個組成部分。剩下的，維克拉姆——但我們不提供指導，對吧？有很多來龍去脈。是的，您可以量化我們提到的 3 種具體情況，但還有其他情況。所以我不想孤立地說，這就是這三個因素的影響，因為這並不能提供全面的情況。淨淨，我們預期為負數。多大？我們必須看看整個投資組合中發生了什麼。

And so I guess just a second question is to clarify. You're basically saying with the move outs, with the interest rate impact, et cetera, the ins and outs, you think FFO will go -- occupancy will dip. You're assuming the least rate will eventually come back, is what I'm assuming you're referring to. And then the impact of all that leasing will help '25 recover FFO wise. Is that fair? Is there any other big moving piece to that equation?

所以我想第二個問題需要澄清。你基本上是說，隨著搬遷、利率影響等等，你認為 FFO 將會消失——入住率將會下降。您假設最低利率最終會回來，這就是我假設您所指的。然後所有租賃的影響將有助於 '25 明智地恢復 FFO。這樣公平嗎？這個方程式還有其他重要的因素嗎？

No, I think that's fair. Obviously, look, as we leased up Penn, which is -- which and some of the other vacancy that Steve mentioned that's not just natural turnover, it's going to power that as well. But I think your general comment is accurate.

不，我認為這是公平的。顯然，看，當我們租用賓州大學時，這是——史蒂夫提到的其他一些空缺不僅僅是自然的流動，它也會推動這種流動。但我認為你的一般評論是準確的。

I agree it's accurate. So to summarize. Interest rates have gone up and have been painful. They will go down. They're not going to go down all the way to 0 but they will go down. And so that's going to increase our earnings from here.

我同意這是準確的。所以總結一下。利率上升並且令人痛苦。他們會下降。它們不會一直下降到 0，但它們會下降。因此，這將增加我們的收入。

Our occupancy is going to climb from, say, 90% to whatever. And so that's going to increase our earnings. And then the big thing is, over the next 2 years, 2 PENN will rent, the income from that will come online. Now that's probably over $100 million. So these are fairly substantial numbers. But -- so overall, you're 100% correct.

我們的入住率將從 90% 上升到任何水平。這將增加我們的收入。最重要的是，在接下來的兩年裡，2 PENN 將出租，收入將上線。現在可能超過 1 億美元。所以這些都是相當可觀的數字。但是——總的來說，你是100%正確的。

Okay. Great. And then, Steve, just last one. You mentioned external growth opportunities at some point, obviously paying -- delevering. I'm assuming FFO growth is important. But -- so if you look to maybe as the Board and yourself, you look -- we look to award executives LTIPs going forward, what are maybe 1 or 2 of the top metrics that could be different the next 5 years versus the last 5 years in terms of gauging those LTIP awards.

好的。偉大的。然後，史蒂夫，最後一個。您在某個時候提到了外部成長機會，顯然是有回報的——去槓桿化。我認為 FFO 的成長很重要。但是，如果您作為董事會和您自己，您會看到，我們希望向高階主管授予 LTIP，未來 5 年與過去 5 年相比，可能有 1 或 2 個最重要的指標會有所不同衡量這些LTIP獎項的年數。

I don't know how to answer that. We don't give guidance for next quarter and it's very difficult to predict what's going to happen over the next 5 years. But a couple of -- to talk around that very sophisticated question, Vikram. We are a New York-centric company. I don't imagine that we will open up a new beachhead where we don't have the same kind of depth of experience, knowledge and franchise that we have. So basically, we're a New York company, my guess is, is that unless something but I'm not contemplating comes up, we will stay a New York company.

我不知道該怎麼回答。我們不會給出下個季度的指導，也很難預測未來 5 年會發生什麼。但有幾個 - 圍繞這個非常複雜的問題，維克拉姆。我們是一家以紐約為中心的公司。我不認為我們會開闢一個新的灘頭堡，因為我們沒有同樣豐富的經驗、知識和特許經營權。所以基本上，我們是一家紐約公司，我的猜測是，除非出現我沒有考慮的事情，否則我們將繼續是一家紐約公司。

Now we opened up a beachhead in Washington some years ago, spun that off into a separate company, which I think is a terrific opportunity. And then we had a large Northeastern shopping center company, which we also spun off. So we have experience with different geographies. But my guess is that the main company will continue to be New York-centric.

現在，幾年前我們在華盛頓開闢了一個灘頭陣地，並將其分拆成一家獨立的公司，我認為這是一個絕佳的機會。然後我們有一家大型東北購物中心公司，我們也將其分拆出來。因此，我們擁有不同地區的經驗。但我的猜測是，主要公司將繼續以紐約為中心。

The likelihood is, we will continue to be a large aggressive office company. But I think I've said this before, we will not make acquisitions of conventional office at full pricing. We will only be a buyer at -- I don't want to call it distress, what's the right word, Michael? Okay, at distressed prices for office buildings. And we will only buy the finest office buildings.

很可能，我們將繼續成為一家大型、進取的辦公室公司。但我想我之前已經說過，我們不會以全價收購傳統辦公室。我們只會成為——我不想稱其為“痛苦”的買家，邁克爾，正確的詞是什麼？好吧，辦公室的價格很便宜。我們只會購買最好的辦公大樓。

We have some residential. I'd like to do a little bit more of that. And then what we will develop in the PENN District is an extraordinarily important part of our company and maybe arguably the most important development in the country as we go forward. But you can't build anything in PENN District today because of the frozen capital markets. You cannot do it. The math doesn't work. But as that begins to thaw, we will consider residential -- building and developing residential in that marketplace. And we might even sell a piece of land through a residential developer. So we can't predict what's going ahead to happen. But in 5 years, we will be New York-centric. We will be majority an office company and the PENN District will be really important 5 years from now.

我們有一些住宅。我想多做一點這樣的事情。然後，我們將在佩恩區開發的項目是我們公司極其重要的一部分，也許可以說是我們前進過程中全國最重要的開發項目。但由於資本市場凍結，今天在佩恩區無法建造任何東西。你不能做到。數學不行。但隨著這種情況開始解凍，我們將考慮住宅——在該市場上建造和開發住宅。我們甚至可能透過住宅開發商出售一塊土地。所以我們無法預測接下來會發生什麼事。但五年後，我們將以紐約為中心。我們將成為一家辦公室公司，5 年後 PENN 區將變得非常重要。

The next question comes from Alexander Goldfarb of Piper Sandler.

下一個問題來自 Piper Sandler 的 Alexander Goldfarb。

Steve, just talking about the comp plan that you guys put in place around 350 Park at the year-end. Obviously, in the middle of last year, the stocks were on their back and you guys revised your comp plan, understandably just given how the stock was depressed and I think we all understood that.

史蒂夫，只是談論你們在年底在 350 Park 制定的薪酬計劃。顯然，去年年中，股票出現了下跌，你們修改了補償計劃，考慮到股票的低迷程度，這是可以理解的，我想我們都明白這一點。

At the end of the year, though, the 350 comp plan definitely surprised and especially that shareholders have to wait till the end of this year to figure out their dividend for 2024, the stub -- the (inaudible) stub aside. So can you just walk through how we should think about that comp plan for a development project that doesn't deliver for another decade while you're talking about earnings still going down this year and shareholders having to wait another year for the dividend. Just want to understand that, especially in light of the midyear update that you guys did for the senior executives and upper generation last summer.

不過，到了年底，350 股補償計畫絕對令人驚訝，尤其是股東必須等到今年年底才能計算出 2024 年的股息，存根——（聽不清楚）存根除外。那麼，當您談論今年的收益仍在下降以及股東必須再等一年才能獲得股息時，您能否介紹一下我們應該如何考慮一個在未來十年內無法交付的開發項目的補償計劃。只是想了解這一點，特別是考慮到你們去年夏天為高階主管和上一代所做的年中更新。

Sure. Alex, the -- let me go backwards first. Your comment about the dividend. We have had an enormous number of incomings from shareholders, analysts, et cetera and industry peers, saying what we did with the dividend was correct. And to continue to pay, by the way, we will rightsize the dividend but to continue to pay and overpay a dividend, et cetera, in this capital markets is just not the most efficient use of capital. So you seem to be on the other side of that. I can tell you that most of your friends and peers are -- think that what we did was the correct thing. Pardon me. Now let's talk about the development fee comp plan. So this is something that we've been thinking about a long time. So the first thing is, its objective is retention, reward, to increase motivation and to incent our most important employees. Retention, reward, motivation and incent.

當然。亞歷克斯，讓我先倒退一下。您對股息的評論。我們收到了大量來自股東、分析師等以及業內同業的意見，他們表示我們對股利的做法是正確的。順便說一句，繼續支付，我們將調整股息規模，但繼續支付和超額支付股息等等，在這個資本市場上並不是最有效的資本利用。所以你似乎站在另一邊。我可以告訴你，你大多數的朋友和同事都認為我們所做的是正確的事。對不起。現在我們來談談開發費補償計畫。所以這是我們長期以來一直在思考的事情。因此，第一件事是，其目標是保留、獎勵、增加動力並激勵我們最重要的員工。保留、獎勵、動機和激勵。

So the first thing is that anything that is paying out on that comp plan comes from joint venture development projects. Now we don't do a lot of those. 350 Park is probably in my memory, the first one. We did -- we did 220, 100%. So we don't do a lot -- and we own the PENN District is 100%. So this doesn't come into being until there is a joint venture partner that pays a development fee.

因此，第一件事是，該補償計劃的任何支出都來自合資開發項目。現在我們不做很多這樣的事情。 350公園大概是我記憶中的第一個。我們做到了——我們做到了 220，100%。所以我們做的不多——而且我們 100% 擁有 PENN 區。因此，直到有合資夥伴支付開發費用後，這種情況才會發生。

Now I talked about incentives and motivation. We think that it's, shoulder to shoulder with our shareholders that we do this kind of investing. And we think it's also shoulder to shoulder with our shareholders that we bring in outside third-party capital, the funds, which has become -- most of our peers in the industry are using outside capital. We haven't done that in the past. So we want to do that in the future. So that's the beginning of it. By the way, it's a very small plan. We don't expect it to be substantial in any way. And as we look at it and as we review our senior management compensation and even down the line, we find that our compensation is lower than almost all of our peers.

現在我談到了激勵和動機。我們認為，我們是與股東並肩進行此類投資。我們認為，我們引入外部第三方資本（這些基金）也與我們的股東並肩作戰，我們業內的大多數同行都在使用外部資本。我們過去沒有這樣做過。所以我們希望在未來這樣做。這就是事情的開始。順便說一句，這是一個非常小的計劃。我們不希望它以任何方式變得實質。當我們審視它並審查我們的高階主管薪酬甚至整個行業時，我們發現我們的薪酬低於幾乎所有同行。

So this is a way to have performance-based comp, a small amount of -- a small amount, by the way. And this is other than stock-based comp because we can't control the stock price. But we can control our performance in joint ventures. It's only payable out of third-party development fees, not development fees that Vornado would be paying. And we think it's highly appropriate. We probably made a mistake. We did a good job of socializing the June comp plan. We sort of didn't do it with this development comp plan because we thought it was very small. We thought shareholders would get it. And frankly, I made a mistake. We should have told our shareholder base what we were going to do.

所以這是一種基於績效的補償方式，順便說一下，少量的補償。這與基於股票的比較不同，因為我們無法控制股票價格。但我們可以控制合資企業的績效。它只能從第三方開發費中支付，而不是 Vornado 支付的開發費。我們認為這是非常合適的。我們可能犯了一個錯誤。我們很好地宣傳了六月的補償計劃。我們沒有採用這個開發補償計劃，因為我們認為它非常小。我們認為股東會明白的。坦白說，我犯了一個錯誤。我們應該告訴我們的股東我們要做什麼。

I myself have -- hang on, I myself, I'm extremely unhappy to get any negative comments about that. And -- but there it is. We think it's right. We think it's a good way of comping our people. We don't -- I think our people are underpaid, certainly at the highest level and at the highest level. And by the way, doing a 2 million square foot building in New York City is backbreaking work. It's nights, it's weekends, it's backbreaking work. And we think that the team deserves it.

我自己——等等，我自己，我非常不高興收到任何關於此事的負面評論。而且——但它就在那裡。我們認為這是對的。我們認為這是對我們的員工進行比較的好方法。我們不——我認為我們的員工薪水過低，當然是最高級別和最高級別的。順便說一句，在紐約市建造一座 200 萬平方英尺的建築是一項艱苦的工作。晚上，週末，工作很辛苦。我們認為團隊應得的。

Steve but to that point, if it's a small amount, it would seem like something that's just part of the annual comp committee, like, hey, you, guys, did a great job, as part of your bonus for your 2023 or 2024, we're rewarding. So if it's a small number, it doesn't seem like that much of an incremental incentive. And two, it just seems like ordinary course that management is expected to do to drive value for shareholders and would be part of their regular course compensation. It's not clear why it would be a stand-alone.

史蒂夫，但就這一點而言，如果金額很小，它似乎只是年度薪酬委員會的一部分，就像，嘿，你們，夥計們，做得很好，作為你們2023 年或2024 年獎金的一部分，我們有回報。因此，如果數量很少，那麼增量激勵似乎就沒有那麼大。第二，管理階層應該為股東創造價值，這似乎是很平常的做法，並且將成為他們常規薪酬的一部分。目前還不清楚為什麼它會是一個獨立的。

Obviously, I don't want to agree with you. But this is -- I would like to agree with you. I would like you to agree with me but I'd like you to agree with me, rather than me agree with you. But anyway, the -- no compensation plan is paid unless it goes through the comp committee of the Board and they take all circumstances into account. So there you have it.

顯然，我不想同意你的觀點。但這是——我想同意你的觀點。我希望你同意我的觀點，但我希望你同意我的觀點，而不是我同意你的觀點。但無論如何，除非經過董事會的薪酬委員會並且他們考慮了所有情況，否則不會支付薪酬計劃。所以你有它。

Okay. Let me switch. Glen, on PENN 2, I believe you guys switched brokers from your original one to a new one. Just curious, the progress that you guys had on PENN 1 seemed pretty good. You toured us last year of the project, it certainly seemed to impress what you guys have done with PENN 1. It seemed like leasing was going well. What happened with PENN 2 that you found it necessary to switch brokers and is that sort of a repositioning of the asset, different tenants? Or was there something else that you learned through the process that caused you to switch brokers on PENN 2?

好的。讓我換一下吧Glen，在 PENN 2 上，我相信你們把經紀人從原來的經紀人換成了新經紀人。只是好奇，你們在 PENN 1 上取得的進展似乎相當不錯。去年你給我們參觀了這個項目，你們對 PENN 1 所做的事情確實給我們留下了深刻的印象。看起來租賃進展順利。 PENN 2 發生了什麼，您發現有必要更換經紀人，這是否是資產的重新定位，不同的租戶？或者您在整個過程中學到了其他東西，導致您在 PENN 2 上更換經紀人？

So we did not switch brokers. The Cushman & Wakefield team is additive to my team. Something we do not do often, as you know but here we decided to do it to cover the entire market, both regionally, locally and nationally. We brought in a great team. The team had just done all leasing over in Manhattan West, so it's additive, not a switch. PENN 1 remains the Vornado team and that was the reasoning for doing the PENN 2, add Cushman & Wakefield but no switch, no change, normal course of business.

所以我們沒有更換經紀人。高緯環球團隊是我團隊的補充。如您所知，我們不經常這樣做，但在這裡我們決定這樣做以涵蓋整個市場，包括區域、本地和全國市場。我們引進了一支優秀的團隊。該團隊剛剛完成了曼哈頓西區的所有租賃，因此這是附加的，而不是轉換。 PENN 1 仍然是 Vornado 團隊，這就是做 PENN 2 的原因，添加了 Cushman & Wakefield，但沒有轉換，沒有改變，正常的業務過程。

Alex, I'm confident that the gold medal team of Glen and the rest of his team in-house has the strength and the ability, the franchise to do the job. But we're in the no stone unturned business. And so we thought that adding Cushman to have that extra look into the marketplace was a good piece of insurance and it's working out.

亞歷克斯，我相信格倫的金牌團隊和他內部團隊的其他成員有實力、有能力、有能力完成這項工作。但我們正處於千方百計的行業。因此，我們認為讓戴德梁行對市場進行額外的考察是一項很好的保險，而且它正在發揮作用。

The next question comes from Caitlin Burrows of Goldman Sachs.

下一個問題來自高盛的凱特琳·伯羅斯。

This is Julien Blouin on for Caitlin. Steve, regarding the dividend and adding to Alex's question, last quarter, you provided a really helpful breakdown of your 2023 expected taxable income. I was wondering if you could provide the same for 2024. And should we assume that the fourth quarter dividend will be again at sort of the minimum required taxable income level?

我是朱利安布魯因 (Julien Blouin) 為凱特琳 (Caitlin) 配音。史蒂夫，關於股息並補充了亞歷克斯的問題，上個季度，您提供了 2023 年預期應稅收入的非常有用的細目。我想知道你們是否可以在 2024 年提供相同的股息。我們是否應該假設第四季度股息將再次達到最低應稅收入水平？

The answer to that is that we have a broad idea of what the 2024 taxable income will be, as you would expect. But it is not a number that we are comfortable enough with disclosing publicly. So that's the first one.

答案是，正如您所期望的那樣，我們對 2024 年應稅收入有一個大致的了解。但我們不願意公開揭露這個數字。這是第一個。

The second point is, at this time, it's a financial policy of our Board to pay out the minimum dividend because from a capital allocation point of view, that's the right decision. We have had, as I said before, numerous investors, shareholders, analysts, peers tell us that's the right decision. The dividend, the most interesting part of the dividend, however, will likely be gains on asset sales because all of our assets have very low basis. So if we choose to sell an asset or 2 or 3 or 4, in '24, that will determine more than anything, what the dividend would be.

第二點是，目前，我們董事會的財務政策是支付最低股息，因為從資本配置的角度來看，這是正確的決定。正如我之前所說，無數投資者、股東、分析師和同行告訴我們，這是正確的決定。然而，股息中最有趣的部分很可能是資產出售的收益，因為我們所有資產的基礎都非常低。因此，如果我們選擇在 24 年出售一項資產或 2 項、3 項或 4 項資產，那麼這將決定股利是多少。

That's really helpful. And then maybe switching gears. To PENN 1, the ground lease renewal. I think you mentioned at the beginning of last year, that you thought the final number could come in lower than the original $26 million estimate just based on evolving sort of market conditions. Is that still your expectation? And I guess what is the latest update on that process?

這真的很有幫助。然後也許會切換齒輪。至 PENN 1，續簽土地租約。我想您在去年初曾提到過，您認為僅根據不斷變化的市場狀況，最終數字可能會低於最初的 2600 萬美元估計。這還是你的期望嗎？我想這個過程的最新更新是什麼？

Well, that's absolutely my expectation but there's somebody on the other side that disagrees with that. So we're in the middle of the process -- the arbitration process to determine what the number will be. And that's something we can't speculate on.

嗯，這絕對是我的期望，但另一邊有人不同意這一點。所以我們正處於這個過程的中間——仲裁過程來確定這個數字是多少。這是我們無法推測的。

The next question comes from Nick Yulico of Scotiabank.

下一個問題來自豐業銀行的尼克尤利科。

Just first, a question on PENN 1, based on the incremental yield you gave last quarter in the sup, I know it's now in the, I guess, more stabilized pool. But it looks like there was eventually $59 million of future NOI, I assume they're on a cash basis. Can you just let us know like how -- any of that's already been captured yet and just how to think about the impact of any of that, if there's any of that benefit assumed for this year?

首先，關於 PENN 1 的問題，根據您在上個季度提供的增量收益率，我知道它現在位於，我猜，更穩定的池中。但看起來未來的 NOI 最終將有 5,900 萬美元，我認為它們是以現金為基礎的。您能否讓我們知道，其中任何一個已經被捕獲，以及如何考慮其中任何一個的影響，如果今年有任何好處的話？

Nick, it's Michael. I can't give you the exact numbers off hand. The answer is some of that is back in '24 but this is a rolling program and so it will continue to come in next year as well. Obviously, there's vacancy there. As that gets leased up, that will come online as well.

尼克，這是麥可。我無法立即向您提供確切的數字。答案是其中一些早在 24 年就已實施，但這是一個滾動計劃，因此明年也將繼續實施。顯然，那裡有空位。當它被租出去時，它也會上線。

So the answer is some of that's there. I can tell you is and it's not in the development yields anymore. This project is done. But our -- the last one we had published, we're confident in terms of hitting that and hopefully exceeding it. But we can sort of circle up and get to more specifics. But some of that's in '24 but it will roll in over the next 1 year or 2 years as well.

所以答案是其中一些。我可以告訴你是，但它不再包含在開發收益中。這個項目已經完成了。但是我們的——我們發布的最後一個，我們有信心達到這個目標，並希望能夠超越它。但我們可以繞一圈並了解更多細節。但其中一些是在 24 年實現的，但也將在未來 1 年或 2 年內實現。

I'd like to make a couple of comments. The first is that all of us focus on what the initial yield is on an asset. I think it's a very interesting exercise to say what can that asset produce in terms of revenue 3, 5, 7 years out. So we believe, for example, in the PENN District, we believe in the west side of Manhattan. We believe that when you combine PENN District with Manhattan West and Hudson Yards, I mean that's a hell of a neighborhood, highly sought after and whatever. So we believe that these assets will return a very satisfactory return at the get-go and will grow from there as we continue to own them over the next period of time. So there's that.

我想發表幾點評論。首先，我們所有人都專注於資產的初始收益率。我認為，判斷該資產在 3、5、7 年後能產生什麼收入是一個非常有趣的練習。所以我們相信，例如，在賓州區，我們相信曼哈頓西區。我們相信，當你將佩恩區與曼哈頓西區和哈德遜庭院結合起來時，我的意思是，這是一個地獄般的社區，備受追捧等等。因此，我們相信這些資產一開始就會帶來非常令人滿意的回報，並且隨著我們在接下來的一段時間內繼續持有它們，這些資產將會隨之成長。所以就是這樣。

We also believe that -- I mean there's some question about which is more important, Penn or Grand Central? Well, the answer is obviously, Grand Central is at the foot of Park Avenue. So that's very important. And I think everybody considers Park Avenue to be the principal business boulevard in the country, maybe even in the world. We have a representation of multiple assets on Park Avenue too. But it's interesting to note that New Jersey Transit comes into only Penn Station. And New Jersey is the fastest growing suburb of New York. So we are very, very happy with our position.

我們也相信——我的意思是，存在一些問題：賓州大學和中央車站哪個更重要？嗯，答案很明顯，中央車站位於公園大道腳下。所以這非常重要。我認為每個人都認為公園大道是美國乃至世界主要的商業大道。我們在公園大道也有多個資產的代表。但有趣的是，新澤西捷運僅進入賓州車站。新澤西州是紐約發展最快的郊區。所以我們對我們的立場非常非常滿意。

Okay. Just second question is on PENN 1 and PENN 2. You, guys, give only the occupancy numbers in South. And I'm just wondering if there's any way that you can give us a feel for like a leased rate for those assets or even think about how much of the leasing you've achieved so far of what your ultimate plan is on getting to these stabilized cash yields you talk about for the projects.

好的。第二個問題是關於 PENN 1 和 PENN 2 的。你們，夥計們，只提供南部的入住人數。我只是想知道是否有任何方法可以讓我們了解這些資產的租賃費率，或者甚至想想到目前為止您已經實現了多少租賃以及您的最終計劃是如何獲得這些資產的您所說的項目的穩定現金收益率。

So much you're going to do -- how much PENN 1 (inaudible)

你要做的事情太多了——PENN 1（聽不清楚）

I mean, as Michael said, PENN 1 is a multiyear program. When we set out on the project, there were over 200 tenants in the property, which we're rolling over the next, call it, 5, 6, 7 years. We've leased a considerable amount of space in PENN 1 to date and we continue to cycle through as these tenants expire year-to-year. And it's been very successful. We've leased over (inaudible) feet this year, it rents north of 90% and we have a lot of action in the pipeline now. Similarly, at PENN 2, we talked about the pipeline. We have deals coming to fore at PENN 2 as we speak. And you could stay tuned on that activity as we roll into the first, second quarter of '24.

我的意思是，正如 Michael 所說，PENN 1 是一個多年期計劃。當我們開始這個計畫時，該房產有超過 200 名租戶，我們將在接下來的五年、六年、七年中進行滾動。到目前為止，我們已經在 PENN 1 租用了大量空間，隨著這些租戶逐年到期，我們將繼續循環使用。而且它非常成功。今年我們已經租出了超過（聽不清楚）英尺的空間，租金超過 90%，我們現在正在醞釀很多行動。同樣，在 PENN 2，我們討論了管道。就在我們說話的時候，PENN 2 的一些交易即將浮出水面。當我們進入 24 年第一、第二季時，您可以繼續關注該活動。

Okay. Yes. And I appreciate all the commentary on the re-leasing. It's just honestly a little bit hard to understand where you guys are at in terms of the re-leasing of those projects? And at what point you're getting the NOI benefit because there's no like bridge provided anymore about the rolling out and the rolling in of NOI. So it's honestly very difficult to quantify what the benefit to the company is going to be over the next couple of years.

好的。是的。我感謝所有關於重新租賃的評論。老實說，有點難以理解你們在這些項目的重新租賃方面處於什麼位置？以及在什麼時候您可以獲得 NOI 福利，因為不再提供關於 NOI 的推出和推出的類似橋樑。因此，老實說，很難量化未來幾年會為公司帶來的好處。

I would say, Nick, let's go through it, right? PENN 2, we've got [$1.4 million] to lease up, okay? PENN 1, we've probably taken care of. I'm going to rough guess about half the square footage to date, right? So there's probably another 1 million to go in terms of rolling that up to market -- that to market, right? Between those 2 assets, in a short period of time and let's call it -- let's use the asset, 3 years, right? There's going to be an incremental $200 million that comes from -- in NOI that comes from those assets, maybe a little less from Farley too, in terms of remaining retail. But the bulk of that is PENN 1, PENN 2. That's probably a net of capitalized interest, another $150 million, right? So that's as crisp as I can give it to you, whether I'm a little bit early or a bit late on the timing, that's the magnitude and it's going to happen.

我會說，尼克，我們來討論一下吧？ PENN 2，我們有 [140 萬美元] 可以出租，好嗎？ PENN 1，我們可能已經處理好了。我將粗略地猜測迄今為止的面積的一半，對嗎？因此，可能還需要 100 萬美元才能將其推向市場——推向市場，對吧？在這兩種資產之間，在很短的時間內，讓我們稱之為——讓我們使用該資產，3 年，對嗎？這些資產將增加 2 億美元的 NOI 收入，就剩餘零售而言，來自法利的收入可能會更少。但其中大部分是 PENN 1、PENN 2。這可能是資本化利息的淨額，另外 1.5 億美元，對吧？因此，這是我能向你們提供的最清晰的信息，無論我的時間是早了一點還是晚了一點，這就是規模，而且它將會發生。

Great. I appreciate that extra commentary, Michael.

偉大的。我很欣賞額外的評論，邁克爾。

The next question comes from Anthony Paolone of JPMorgan.

下一個問題來自摩根大通的安東尼·保隆。

I just have one. Michael, if I got your comment right earlier, I think you mentioned debt markets are pretty open right now for retail. And so I was wondering if that creates any opportunities for you all to get paid back on your [prep] interest in the JV in the near term at all.

我只有一個。邁克爾，如果我早些時候得到你的評論，我想你提到債務市場目前對零售業相當開放。所以我想知道這是否為你們所有人創造了任何機會，讓你們在短期內獲得對合資企業的[準備]興趣的回報。

Tony, the -- we're pleased that the markets are opening. And the answer is, we're starting to look at it. But -- we've got some leasing to do on a couple of those assets as well, right? If you think about a 689 or Fifth or the old space at 1540. So there's a little bit of leasing as we had accomplished, stabilized 2 or 3 of the assets. But as opposed to something that was sort of not on the table as a possibility, I think it's emerging as a possibility. And as the markets continue to improve, the answer is, we are absolutely focused on it. And we're sort of gathering data and looking at it. But it's one of those things where we got to do leasing. There's also a size limitation in terms of how much you can put through the system. But our goal is to repatriate that capital over time when that -- when the opportunity is emerging.

托尼，我們很高興市場正在開放。答案是，我們正在開始研究它。但是——我們還需要對其中一些資產進行一些租賃，對吧？如果您考慮 689 或第五或 1540 的舊空間。因此，正如我們已經完成的那樣，有一點租賃，穩定了 2 或 3 個資產。但與那些未曾出現的可能性相反，我認為它正在成為一種可能性。隨著市場不斷改善，答案是，我們絕對關注它。我們正在收集數據並進行研究。但這是我們必須進行租賃的事情之一。系統的容量也有大小限制。但我們的目標是隨著時間的推移，當機會出現時，將資金匯回國內。

I look at it differently. The markets are open, which really means that lenders are prepared to give you money at 8%. That's not open to me because the cost of that capital is just too high. And it will -- this is not the time to be aggressively borrowing unless you absolutely need it. So the answer is, we look at it from an academic point of view but it would be very surprising to see our company aggressively refinance the preferred or anything else at these interest rates.

我對此有不同的看法。市場是開放的，這實際上意味著貸款人準備以 8% 的利率給你錢。這對我來說不開放，因為資本成本太高了。而且它會的——除非你絕對需要，否則現在不是大舉借貸的時候。所以答案是，我們從學術的角度來看待它，但看到我們公司以這些利率積極地為優先股或其他任何東西進行再融資將是非常令人驚訝的。

Now just a minute about our liquidity. We have a big amount in cash. We consider at some point in time that the preferred is a source of liquidity. Not at 8% but lower. But if we had to, it's a source of liquidity and that's $1.8 billion. And the next is, remember that Penn Plaza has no debt on it. So we've got PENN 1 debt-free, PENN 2 debt-free, Farley debt-free and Hotel Penn site debt-free. So we have an enormous source of liquidity which we think is pretty interesting.

現在簡單介紹一下我們的流動性。我們有大量現金。我們認為在某個時間點，優先股是流動性的來源。不是8%，而是更低。但如果我們必須這樣做，它也是流動性的來源，那就是 18 億美元。接下來是，請記住賓州廣場沒有債務。因此，我們擁有 PENN 1 無債務、PENN 2 無債務、Farley 無債務和 Hotel Penn 站點無債務。因此，我們擁有巨大的流動性來源，我們認為這非常有趣。

The next question comes from Ronald Kamdem of Morgan Stanley.

下一個問題來自摩根士丹利的羅納德·卡姆德姆。

Great. Just one for me as well. I was just looking at the 10-K, in the footnote you put some really helpful details about where you expect to release some of the maturities on the office portfolio. I think it looks like flat or in some of the retail at sort of over 30%, which I thought was helpful. But trying to connect the dots between those re-leasing spreads. I think we talked earlier on the call about occupancy potentially dipping in the first -- back part of the year before picking up, can you put that all together for us and into a same-store NOI number? I know you don't give guidance but is there some broad strokes that we should be thinking about same-store NOI? Is it flat? Is it slightly down? How should we think about those pieces?

偉大的。也只給我一份。我只是在看 10-K，在腳註中，您提供了一些非常有用的詳細信息，說明您希望在何處發布辦公室投資組合的一些到期日。我認為它看起來持平，或在某些零售業中超過 30%，我認為這很有幫助。但試圖將這些轉租價差之間的點連結起來。我想我們早些時候在電話會議上談到了入住率可能會在今年下半年有所下降，然後才有所回升，您能否為我們將所有這些數據匯總到同店 NOI 數字中？我知道您沒有提供指導，但我們是否應該考慮同店 NOI 的一些大致思路？是平的嗎？是不是有點下降了？我們該如何看待這些作品？

It's probably a little bit down in the aggregate. But again, it depends a little bit on what basis and when happens. So hard to give you any more guidance than that. But I think your overall characterization in the office on an average basis, flat is probably accurate. But as Glen and his team has a history of doing -- we'll pull forward a number of leases that are going to roll and deal with those. So it's sort of hard to give you that number.

整體來說可能有點下降。但同樣，這在一定程度上取決於發生的基礎和時間。很難給你比這更多的指導。但我認為你在辦公室的整體特徵平均而言，平坦可能是準確的。但正如格倫和他的團隊有這樣做的歷史一樣——我們將推遲一些即將滾動並處理這些問題的租約。所以很難給你這個數字。

The next question is a follow-up from Steve Sakwa of Evercore ISI.

下一個問題是 Evercore ISI 的 Steve Sakwa 的後續問題。

Just 2 quick follow-ups. Michael, I think on the G&A, you and Steve had provided some color. But I just wanted to -- so are you saying that in '24, you think that G&A will be flattish with '23 or it actually comes down in '24 versus '23?

只需 2 個快速跟進。邁克爾，我認為在一般行政費用方面，你和史蒂夫提供了一些顏色。但我只是想 - 所以你是說在 24 年，你認為 G&A 會與 23 年持平，還是實際上在 24 年與 23 年相比有所下降？

Well, it's going to come down. The developments we're done are not going to be there, right? I mean that was a last year item, that's not going to reoccur, this item, so that's going down. So the answer is yes, we think it will be down.

嗯，它會下來的。我們所做的開發不會在那裡，對吧？我的意思是，這是去年的項目，不會再出現，這個項目，所以會下降。所以答案是肯定的，我們認為它會下降。

Okay. But just basically stripping that out, that's really the only kind of one-timer that would sort of come off the '23 number?

好的。但基本上把它去掉，這真的是唯一可以擺脫“23”數字的一次性計時器嗎？

Yes. There's a little more in terms of things that were accelerated that aren't going to reoccur just based on historical vesting for certain people. But -- so the answer is, net-net, between development fee that -- I don't know, is Tom, we're talking $10 million or so, that neighborhood, probably somewhere in the neighborhood that comes off, of course, in '24.

是的。還有一些事情是加速發生的，而這些事情不會只是基於某些人的歷史歸屬而再次發生。但是 - 所以答案是，淨淨，介於開發費之間 - 我不知道，是湯姆，我們談論的是 1000 萬美元左右，那個社區，當然可能是在附近的某個地方，24 年。

Okay. Great. And then just second follow-up, just on -- I think you've got a big refinancing that you're working on with your partner at 280 Park Avenue. Just any kind of color, I think, that might have gone into special servicing. I assume that, that was maybe part of the mechanics of getting that loan refinanced. But just any color or commentary you could provide on that refinancing would be great.

好的。偉大的。然後是第二個後續行動，就在——我認為您正在與公園大道 280 號的合作夥伴進行大型再融資。我想，任何一種顏色都可能需要進行特殊維修。我認為，這可能是貸款再融資機制的一部分。但只要你能提供有關再融資的任何顏色或評論，那就太好了。

Sure. I'm not going to say too much given we're still in the middle of the process but it is a CMBS loan, going into special servicing, is part of the process of working that out. And we and our partner are making good progress on that and we expect to get to a successful resolution with terms that we think are attractive. So more to come shortly there. But we've been hard at work for the last 6, 9 months. The CMBS loans are painful, complicated, given the way they're set up. But you have the right sponsorship and I think they recognize that. So we're getting closer to the finish line.

當然。鑑於我們仍處於該過程的中間，我不會說太多，但這是一筆 CMBS 貸款，進入特殊服務，是解決問題過程的一部分。我們和我們的合作夥伴正在這方面取得良好進展，我們希望能夠以我們認為有吸引力的條款達成成功的解決方案。很快就會有更多的內容出現。但過去六、九個月我們一直在努力工作。考慮到 CMBS 貸款的設立方式，它們是痛苦且複雜的。但你有合適的贊助，我想他們也認清這一點。所以我們離終點線越來越近了。

That concludes today's question-and-answer session. I would like to turn the conference back over to Steven Roth for any closing remarks.

今天的問答環節到此結束。我想將會議轉回史蒂文·羅斯（Steven Roth）發表閉幕詞。

Thank you, everybody. We appreciate your interest in our company. We learn from you every call. This was an interesting call. And we -- it's snowing -- and we'll see you at the next call. When is the next call?

謝謝大家。我們感謝您對我們公司的興趣。我們從您的每次通話中學習。這是一個有趣的電話。我們——正在下雪——我們下次電話見。下次電話是什麼時候？

May 7.

5月7日。

On May 7. Have a good day.

5 月 7 日。祝你有美好的一天。

Ladies and gentlemen, this concludes today's conference call. Thank you for participating and you may now disconnect.

女士們、先生們，今天的電話會議到此結束。感謝您的參與，您現在可以斷開連接。