Tecogen Inc (TGEN) 2025 Q4 法說會逐字稿

Greetings, and welcome to the Tecogen fiscal year 2025 conference call. (Operator Instructions) As a reminder, this conference is being recorded. (Operator Instructions)

各位好，歡迎參加 Tecogen 2025 會計年度電話會議。(接線員指示) 提醒各位，本次會議將被錄音。(接線員指示)

It's now my pleasure to turn the call over to Jack Whiting, General Counsel and Secretary. Please go ahead, Jack.

現在我很榮幸將電話交給總法律顧問兼公司秘書 Jack Whiting。Jack，請開始。

Good morning. This is Jack Whiting, General Counsel and Secretary of Tecogen. This call is being recorded and will be archived on our website at tecogen.com. The press release regarding our fourth quarter and year-end 2025 earnings and the presentation provided this morning are available in the Investors section of our website.

各位早安。我是 Jack Whiting，Tecogen 的總法律顧問兼公司秘書。本次電話會議將被錄音，並會在我們的網站 tecogen.com 上存檔。關於我們 2025 年第四季與全年財報的新聞稿，以及今天早上提供的簡報，均可在我們網站的投資人（Investors）專區取得。

I'd like to direct your attention to our Safe Harbor statement included in our earnings press release and presentation. Various remarks that we may make about the company's expectations, plans, and prospects constitute forward-looking statements for purposes of the Safe Harbor provisions under the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995.

我想請各位注意我們在財報新聞稿與簡報中所載的「安全港」聲明。我們可能就公司之預期、計畫與前景所作的各項評論，均構成 1995 年《私人證券訴訟改革法》（Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995）安全港條款所定義之「前瞻性陳述」。

Actual results may differ materially from those indicated by forward-looking statements as a result of various factors, including those discussed in the company's most recent annual and quarterly reports on Forms 10-K and 10-Q under the caption Risk Factors filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission and available in the Investors section of our website under the heading SEC Filings.

由於各種因素，實際結果可能與前瞻性陳述所示者有重大差異，包括公司最近一期 Form 10-K 與 Form 10-Q 年報及季報中「風險因素」（Risk Factors）標題下所討論之因素；該等文件已向美國證券交易委員會（SEC）申報，並可在我們網站投資人專區的「SEC 申報文件」（SEC Filings）項下查閱。

While we may elect to update forward-looking statements, we specifically disclaim any obligation to do so, so you should not rely on any forward-looking statements as representing our views as of any future date.

雖然我們可能選擇更新前瞻性陳述，但我們明確聲明不負任何更新義務，因此您不應依賴任何前瞻性陳述作為我們於任何未來日期之觀點。

During this call, we will refer to certain financial measures not prepared in accordance with generally accepted accounting principles, or GAAP. A reconciliation of non-GAAP financial measures to the most directly comparable GAAP measures is provided in the press release regarding our Q4 and year-end 2025 earnings and on our website.

在本次電話會議中，我們將提及若干並非依一般公認會計原則（GAAP）編製之財務衡量指標。非 GAAP 財務衡量指標與最直接可比之 GAAP 指標之調節表，已載於我們關於 2025 年第四季與全年財報的新聞稿中，並可於我們網站查閱。

I'll now turn the call over to Abinand Rangesh, Tecogen's CEO, who will provide an overview of fourth quarter and year-end 2025 activity and results; and Roger Deschenes, Tecogen's CFO, who will provide additional information regarding Q4 and year-end 2025 financial results. Abinand?

接下來我將把電話交給 Tecogen 執行長 Abinand Rangesh，他將概述 2025 年第四季與全年之活動與成果；以及 Tecogen 財務長 Roger Deschenes，他將就 2025 年第四季與全年財務結果提供更多資訊。Abinand？

Thank you, Jack. Welcome to Tecogen's fiscal year 2025 call. I know many of you would like an update on how the data center cooling strategy is progressing. So today, I'm going to start with an update on the Vertiv partnership. There have been some key positive developments that I'll share, including their opportunities for our chillers.

謝謝你，Jack。歡迎參加 Tecogen 2025 會計年度電話會議。我知道各位當中有許多人希望了解我們的資料中心冷卻策略進展如何。因此今天我將先從 Vertiv 合作夥伴關係的最新進展談起。我會分享一些關鍵的正面發展，包括他們對我們冷水機的機會。

Then I'm going to walk you through Tecogen's data center opportunity pipeline outside the Vertiv partnership. After that, I will provide an update on the other avenues we are working on, including expanding our manufacturing throughput, increasing service revenue and margin and the non-data center pipeline.

接著我會帶各位了解 Tecogen 在 Vertiv 合作夥伴關係之外的資料中心機會管線。之後，我將更新我們正在推進的其他方向，包括提升製造產能、提高服務營收與毛利，以及非資料中心的機會管線。

We have seen significant forward momentum with the Vertiv relationship. First, Vertiv has designed -- or is in the process of designing between 25 and 50 megawatts of our chillers into various projects. This is equivalent to 50 to 100 of our 150-ton dual power source air-cooled chillers.

我們與 Vertiv 的合作關係已出現顯著的正向動能。第一，Vertiv 已經設計——或正在設計——在各項專案中導入介於 25 到 50 兆瓦的我們冷水機。這相當於 50 到 100 台我們的 150 噸雙動力來源風冷式冷水機。

Second, we have been negotiating our master partnership agreement that expands the marketing agreement that we signed last year. Third, we have discussed bringing Tecogen's hybrid-drive technology to Vertiv's chillers. As the sales grow, this may allow Tecogen to scale manufacturing very quickly because we would focus on the dual power source and make this to the refrigeration system that is already built in volume in Vertiv's factories.

第二，我們一直在協商主合作夥伴協議（master partnership agreement），以擴大我們去年簽署的行銷協議。第三，我們已討論將 Tecogen 的混合驅動（hybrid-drive）技術導入 Vertiv 的冷水機。隨著銷售成長，這可能讓 Tecogen 能非常快速地擴大製造規模，因為我們將專注於雙動力來源，並將其整合到 Vertiv 工廠已大量生產的冷凍系統中。

Last and most exciting of all, we have secured a demonstration project with Vertiv. This is expected to ship sometime toward the end of Q2 for 1 megawatt of cooling or 2 times our 150-ton dual power source chillers. Our chiller will go to the Vertiv controlled environment test chamber, where it will operate under simulated AI data center conditions and various outside ambient temperatures. This technology demonstration project gives prospective customers data on how the chiller will operate under real-world data center conditions across a range of ambient temperatures.

最後也是最令人振奮的一點，我們已與 Vertiv 取得一個示範專案。預計將於第二季末前後出貨，提供 1 兆瓦的冷卻能力，亦即 2 台我們的 150 噸雙動力來源冷水機。我們的冷水機將送至 Vertiv 的受控環境測試艙，在模擬 AI 資料中心條件以及不同室外環境溫度下運轉。此技術示範專案可為潛在客戶提供數據，了解冷水機在各種環境溫度範圍內、真實世界資料中心條件下的運作表現。

While we have been furthering the Vertiv partnership, we have also been expanding our own data center pipeline. In this list, we have only included opportunities where the end customer has told us they plan to use Tecogen chillers and have made significant progress on signing data center tenants. This list is sorted based on our current project confidence. Developers that have existing data center experience and financing are higher on the list.

在推進 Vertiv 合作夥伴關係的同時，我們也在擴大自身的資料中心機會管線。在此清單中，我們僅納入那些終端客戶已告知計畫使用 Tecogen 冷水機，且在簽訂資料中心租戶方面已取得顯著進展的機會。此清單依我們目前對專案的信心程度排序。具備既有資料中心經驗與融資能力的開發商，會排在較前面。

Based on past experience, customers typically want chiller equipment delivered six to nine months before the site needs to be operational. For sites that are expected to be operational in early 2027, this would suggest equipment orders no later than Q2 or Q3 this year. Timing is always difficult to predict because there are multiple moving pieces on the customer side, but the timeline we have seen to date is completely consistent with our historic sales cycles.

依過往經驗，客戶通常希望在場址需要投入營運前 6 到 9 個月交付冷水機設備。對於預計在 2027 年初投入營運的場址，這意味著設備訂單最晚應在今年第二季或第三季下達。由於客戶端有多個變動因素，時程一向難以預測，但截至目前我們看到的時間表與我們歷史銷售週期完全一致。

Projects can also go through stop-start cycles before closing. For example, in the past five months alone, we have had two instances where potential customers have told us they were ready to place the purchase order, but then hit unforeseen delays on their end. However, as you can see, we have multiple opportunities of various sizes, thereby increasing the odds in our favor.

專案在成交前也可能經歷停停走走的週期。例如，僅在過去五個月內，我們就有兩次遇到潛在客戶告知已準備下採購單，但隨後因其端出現未預期的延遲。不過，如各位所見，我們有多個不同規模的機會，因此提高了對我們有利的機率。

One project is an expansion of an existing data center. They plan to use our dual power source chiller to handle new tenants. Another is in the final stages of tenant negotiations and expects to use our DTx chillers to maximize IT capacity. The same developer also has a second project of a similar size and another of a larger scale.

其中一個專案是既有資料中心的擴建。他們計畫使用我們的雙動力來源冷水機來因應新租戶。另一個專案正處於租戶談判的最後階段，預期將使用我們的 DTx 冷水機以最大化 IT 容量。同一開發商另有第二個規模相近的專案，以及另一個更大規模的專案。

Next, there is an opportunity for a demonstration project with an established data center owner for up to 40 chillers. This developer evaluated the cost of power from our chillers against the alternatives and found the value highly compelling. However, they were also looking for some independent validation of our chillers. We believe that the Vertiv demonstration project will be instrumental in unlocking this opportunity.

接下來，與一家成熟的資料中心業主有一個示範專案機會，最多可達 40 台冷水機。該開發商將我們冷水機的用電成本與替代方案進行比較後，認為其價值極具吸引力。然而，他們也希望取得對我們冷水機的某些獨立驗證。我們相信 Vertiv 的示範專案將在促成此機會方面發揮關鍵作用。

The remaining projects have filed for environmental permits and are in active discussions with tenants. They represent 100 to 200 chillers collectively. We expect more clarity on construction timing as permits are granted and tenant negotiations progress.

其餘專案已申請環境許可，並正與租戶進行積極洽談。合計代表 100 到 200 台冷水機的需求。隨著許可獲准及租戶談判推進，我們預期對施工時程會有更清晰的掌握。

In our previous call, we had mentioned an opportunity where we have an LOI for six STx chillers. Although this opportunity is progressing, we have moved this further down the list because we believe the others outlined above are moving faster and have more near-term potential.

在我們上一次電話會議中，我們曾提到一個機會：我們已就 6 台 STx 冷水機取得意向書（LOI）。雖然此機會仍在推進中，但我們已將其在清單中的順位往後調整，因為我們認為上述其他機會進展更快，且短期潛力更高。

In addition to this list, we also have ongoing discussions with multiple hyperscalers and multiple other data center developers. The current timeline on these projects are completely in line with projects and other industries. We also believe that closing the first few opportunities will unlock significant demand.

除了這份清單之外，我們也正與多家超大規模業者（hyperscalers）以及多家其他資料中心開發商持續洽談。這些專案目前的時程與其他專案及其他產業的情況完全一致。我們也相信，一旦成功拿下前幾個機會，將釋放出顯著的需求。

Based on conversations with prospects, even if we have chillers and other critical cooling applications, many data center owners would still like to see our chiller in other data centers or cooling AI loads. We believe this concern will be addressed with the Vertiv demonstration project and some of the near-term opportunities.

根據與潛在客戶的對話，即使我們擁有冷水機以及其他關鍵冷卻應用，許多資料中心業主仍希望先在其他資料中心看到我們的冷水機運行，或看到其用於冷卻 AI 負載的實績。我們相信，這項疑慮將可透過 Vertiv 的示範專案以及部分近期機會而獲得解決。

Aside from data center projects, we are expecting chiller orders from other segments such as cannabis, hospitals and comfort cooling. These represent at least another six DTx tillers. Expected delivery is the fall and winter of this year.

除了資料中心專案之外，我們也預期會從其他領域收到冷水機訂單，例如大麻產業、醫院以及舒適性空調。這些至少還代表另外六台 DTx 冷水機。預計交付時間為今年的秋季與冬季。

We're also seeing a gradual resurgence in cogeneration leads as utility rates rise across the United States. Given the significant amount of interest in our dual power source chiller, we wanted to make sure we could handle a step change in order volume.

隨著美國各地公用事業費率上升，我們也看到熱電共生（cogeneration）商機線索逐步回升。鑑於市場對我們雙動力來源冷水機的高度興趣，我們希望確保能夠因應訂單量的階躍式成長。

We have now qualified a vendor for the sheet metal and refrigeration assembly. This vendor already built hundreds of similar refrigeration and sheet metal assemblies for a large chiller company. We have also qualified an electrical assembly vendor for the power electronics and are in the process of qualifying a second vendor. We are also presently building some inventory of both fuel power source chillers and DTx chillers. Our engineering team has been iteratively improving our design for manufacturability and to reduce build time.

我們現在已完成鈑金與冷凍組裝的供應商資格認證。該供應商先前已為一家大型冷水機公司製造過數百套類似的冷凍與鈑金組件。我們也已完成一家具備電力電子能力的電氣組裝供應商資格認證，並正在進行第二家供應商的資格認證。目前我們也正在建立燃料動力來源冷水機與 DTx 冷水機的部分庫存。我們的工程團隊持續以迭代方式改善可製造性設計並縮短組裝時間。

Given the cash usage over the last six months, I would like to provide some context and then the plan for the next nine months. Given the size of the pipeline, one of the concerns we had was being able to handle aggressive delivery schedules. As a result, we expanded cash on several fronts simultaneously to get everything we needed to do done.

鑑於過去六個月的現金使用情況，我想先提供一些背景，並說明接下來九個月的計畫。考量到商機管線的規模，我們其中一項擔憂是能否應付具挑戰性的交付時程。因此，我們同時在多個面向增加現金支出，以完成所有需要完成的事項。

Some of these uses of cash included manufacturing capacity expansion, performing the testing and improvements needed for our dual power source chiller to operate under data center conditions. We also hired a marketing firm that specializes in data centers.

這些現金用途包括擴充製造產能、進行必要的測試與改良，使我們的雙動力來源冷水機能在資料中心條件下運作。我們也聘請了一家專精於資料中心的行銷公司。

In addition to the above, in Q3, we invested significantly in the service group, especially in the greater Manhattan area. We have found over the last two years, despite increasing our service contract rates greater than inflation, we found that margin on the cogeneration products was reduced in the greater Manhattan and Toronto service centers.

除上述之外，在第三季我們也大幅投資於服務團隊，特別是在大曼哈頓地區。我們在過去兩年發現，儘管我們將服務合約費率的調升幅度高於通膨，但在大曼哈頓與多倫多服務中心，熱電共生產品的毛利率仍有所下降。

The chiller product continues to maintain solid margins. The cost of labor and increased travel times between sites is one of the biggest contributors to this decline in margin. To counteract this, we invested in new engines in this territory with the latest performance improvements. This allows us to increase service intervals by at least 50%. We expect this to lower labor costs per hour of operation.

冷水機產品仍持續維持穩健的毛利率。勞動成本以及各據點之間旅行時間增加，是造成毛利率下滑的最大因素之一。為了因應此情況，我們在該區域投資了具備最新效能改良的新引擎。這使我們能將保養服務間隔至少延長 50%。我們預期這將降低每小時運轉的人工成本。

In Q4, we saw an increase in both 1 hours and margin compared to Q3 in these territories. We will continue to monitor, and if needed, institute aggressive price increases or cost reductions where needed. Our current cash position is $10 million. By Q2, we plan to cut the cash burn down substantially. From 2023 to mid-2025, we managed with $2 million of cash, including a factory move.

在第四季，我們在這些地區的工時與毛利率相較第三季均有所提升。我們將持續監控，並在需要時採取更積極的漲價或成本削減措施。我們目前的現金部位為 1,000 萬美元。到第二季，我們計畫大幅降低現金消耗。從 2023 年到 2025 年年中，我們以 200 萬美元的現金維持營運，其中還包含一次工廠搬遷。

Roger will discuss the results on the financial plan going forward.

Roger 將說明未來財務計畫的結果。

Thank you, Abinand, and good morning, everybody. I'll start with the fourth quarter results. Our revenues for the quarter decreased by $800,000 in the fourth quarter to $5.3 million, which compares to $6.1 million in the fourth quarter of 2024. And this is due to the decrease in product shipments and a reduction in energy production revenue. Our gross profit also decreased by 28% in the fourth quarter compared to the comparable period in the prior year period.

謝謝你，Abinand，各位早安。我先從第四季的結果開始。本季營收在第四季減少 80 萬美元至 530 萬美元，相較於 2024 年第四季的 610 萬美元。這主要是因為產品出貨減少以及能源生產營收下降。我們的毛利也較去年同期下降 28%。

And this is due to the decrease in our products revenue and an increase in our service costs. The gross margin decreased 8.2% to 36.8% in the fourth quarter from 45% in the comparable period in 2024.

這是由於產品營收下降以及服務成本上升所致。第四季毛利率由 2024 年同期的 45% 下降 8.2 個百分點至 36.8%。

As Abinand touched upon earlier, our services margin was lower compared to the same period last year, but has increased compared to the third quarter of this year. The quarter-over-quarter changes in revenues and gross margin will be discussed further in our segment performance slide. Our operating expenses increased 57% in the fourth quarter of 2025 to $6.1 million from $3.9 million in the fourth quarter of 2024.

如 Abinand 先前提到的，我們的服務毛利率較去年同期偏低，但相較於今年第三季已有提升。營收與毛利率的季對季變動，將在我們的分部表現投影片中進一步說明。2025 年第四季營業費用較 2024 年第四季增加 57%，由 390 萬美元增至 610 萬美元。

This is due in part to a $900,000 increase in the asset impairment charge in our Energy Production segment and increased operating costs in our Services segment and increased cost in our Production segment which we incurred for the manufacturing expansion that we're working towards. And we also saw increases in our R&D costs, which were incurred to continue the development and refinement of our dual source chiller, which is focused on our entry into the data center market.

部分原因是能源生產分部的資產減損費用增加 90 萬美元，以及服務分部營運成本上升，並且我們在生產分部也因推動製造擴產而產生較高成本。我們也看到研發費用增加，這些費用用於持續開發與精進我們的雙來源冷水機，重點在於切入資料中心市場。

Our net loss increased in the fourth quarter to $4 million from $1.1 million in the similar period in 2024. And this is due to the reduction in sales and gross margin, the asset impairment charge, and an overall increase in operating expenses. We will discuss expenses in more detail in our full year 2025 numbers.

第四季淨損擴大至 400 萬美元，較 2024 年同期的 110 萬美元增加。這是由於銷售與毛利率下降、資產減損費用，以及整體營業費用上升所致。我們將在 2025 全年數字中更詳細討論費用。

Moving to adjusted EBITDA. The adjusted EBITDA loss for the fourth quarter was $2.4 million, which compares to about $700,000 in the same period last year. And again, this is due to lower sales and gross margin and the increase in operating expenses that we experienced.

接著看調整後 EBITDA。第四季調整後 EBITDA 虧損為 240 萬美元，相較去年同期約 70 萬美元。同樣地，這是由於銷售與毛利率較低，以及我們所經歷的營業費用增加。

Moving to performance by segment. Our Products revenue decreased 68% to about $0.5 million in the current period from $1.4 million in the fourth quarter of 2024. This is due to a delay, as Abinand suggested earlier, a couple of projects, which we expected to ship in the fourth quarter of 2025, but we now expect to close these orders in the next few months. As we have discussed in the past, our product revenue has significant variability quarter to quarter, and it's borne out in this past quarter.

接著看各分部表現。本期產品營收較 2024 年第四季的 140 萬美元下降 68% 至約 50 萬美元。這是因為如 Abinand 先前所提到的，有幾個專案延後；我們原本預期在 2025 年第四季出貨，但現在預期在未來幾個月完成這些訂單。如我們過去所討論，產品營收在各季之間波動很大，而這一季也再次印證了這點。

Our Products gross margin decreased to negative 6.9% from 30.9% in the fourth quarter of 2024. This is increased unabsorbed labor. This is labor that we're using to work towards increasing our throughput. An increase in our inventory reserve, a slight increase in warranty costs and all of these costs, which have a disproportionate impact on margin to the revenue decrease.

產品毛利率由 2024 年第四季的 30.9% 下降至負 6.9%。這主要是未吸收人工成本增加。這些人工是我們用來提升產能吞吐量所投入的。此外，存貨備抵增加、保固成本小幅上升；在營收下降的情況下，這些成本對毛利率造成不成比例的影響。

Our Services revenue increased 9% quarter over quarter to $4.5 million in the fourth quarter compared to $4.1 million in the comparable period in 2024. And this is due to higher billable activity and higher operating hours of the equipment from our existing service contracts. Our Services margin decreased 7.4% to 43.4% in the fourth quarter of 2025 from 50.8% in the fourth quarter of 2024. This is due to increased labor and material costs in the greater New York City area.

服務營收在第四季較去年同期增加 9% 至 450 萬美元，去年同期為 410 萬美元。這是由於可計費活動增加，以及既有服務合約下設備運轉時數提高。2025 年第四季服務毛利率由 2024 年第四季的 50.8% 下降 7.4 個百分點至 43.4%。這是由於大紐約市地區的人工與材料成本上升。

Our Energy Production revenue decreased 28% in the fourth quarter of 2025 to just under $4 million compared to $5 million -- I'm sorry, about $555,000 in the fourth quarter 2024. And this is due to contracts that expired early in 2024 and some of which expired late in 2023 and the temporary site closures during the year. Our Energy Production gross margin decreased to 13.7% in the fourth quarter of 2025 from 39% in the fourth quarter of 2024. And this is due to an increase in cost with our Energy Production business.

2025 年第四季能源生產營收下降 28%，降至略低於 400 萬美元，相較於 2024 年第四季的 500 萬美元——抱歉，是約 55.5 萬美元。這是由於部分合約於 2024 年初提前到期、另有一些於 2023 年底到期，以及年度期間的臨時場址關閉。2025 年第四季能源生產毛利率由 2024 年第四季的 39% 下降至 13.7%。這是由於我們能源生產業務的成本增加所致。

Moving to the full year 2025 results. Our revenue increased 19.7% or $4.5 million in 2025 to $27.1 million compared to $22.6 million in fiscal 2024. And this is due to a significant increase in our Products revenue and an increase in our Services revenue.

接著談 2025 全年業績。我們 2025 年營收較 2024 會計年度的 2,260 萬美元增加 19.7%（或 450 萬美元），達到 2,710 萬美元。這主要是因為我們產品營收大幅增加，以及服務營收也有所成長。

Our gross profit decreased about 0.5% in 2025 compared to 2024. And the decrease in the gross margin was 7.3%, which decreased from 43.6% in 2024 to 36.3% in fiscal 2025. And we'll review year-over-year changes in revenues and gross profit further in the segment performance slide.

我們 2025 年的毛利較 2024 年約下降 0.5%。毛利率下降 7.3 個百分點，從 2024 年的 43.6% 降至 2025 會計年度的 36.3%。我們將在分部表現投影片中進一步檢視營收與毛利的年對年變化。

Our operating expenses increased 25% in 2025 to $18.1 million from $14.4 million in 2024 due in part to the $900,000 increase in the asset impairment charge in our Energy Performance segment, increased operating cost in our Services segment, an increase in cost in our Products segment -- again, that's due to the manufacturing expansion -- and increased R&D cost, which we incurred to continue, again, the development and refinement of our dual source chiller, again, that we're focused to utilize in the data center market.

我們 2025 年營業費用較 2024 年的 1,440 萬美元增加 25%，至 1,810 萬美元，部分原因包括：能源效能（Energy Performance）分部資產減損費用增加 90 萬美元、服務分部營運成本上升、產品分部成本增加（同樣是因製造擴產所致），以及研發費用增加；我們為了持續開發並精進雙來源冷水機（dual source chiller）而產生這些研發費用，該產品我們聚焦於資料中心市場的應用。

Our net loss increased in 2025 to $8.2 million from $4.7 million in 2024. And the loss is due to, again, lower Services and Energy Production gross margin, the asset impairment charge and increasing operating costs. And we'd like to point out that we are working on a program to reduce our OpEx to levels that are consistent with levels from 2024 -- the 2024 spend, I should say, and anticipate to see reductions to commence in the second quarter of this year and further expansion of those reductions in the third quarter and the fourth quarter.

我們 2025 年淨損擴大至 820 萬美元，較 2024 年的 470 萬美元增加。虧損主要是因為服務與能源生產（Energy Production）毛利率較低、資產減損費用，以及營運成本上升。我們也想指出，我們正在推動一項計畫，將營業費用（OpEx）降低至與 2024 年水準一致——也就是 2024 年的支出水準；並預期今年第二季開始看到費用下降，第三季與第四季將進一步擴大降幅。

Our adjusted EBITDA loss was $5.6 million in 2025, which compares to $3.6 million in the same period last year. And this is due to lower Services and Energy Production gross margin and the increase in operating costs.

我們 2025 年調整後 EBITDA 虧損為 560 萬美元，較去年同期的 360 萬美元增加。這主要是因為服務與能源生產毛利率較低，以及營運成本上升。

Reviewing our performance by segment. Our Products revenue increased 105% to $9.1 million in the current period from $4.4 million in 2024. And this decrease -- I'm sorry, this increase is due to an increased chiller and cogeneration revenue that was recognized in the first three quarters of 2025.

接著按分部檢視我們的表現。本期產品營收較 2024 年的 440 萬美元增加 105%，至 910 萬美元。這個——抱歉，是這個增加主要來自 2025 年前三季認列的冷水機與熱電共生（cogeneration）營收增加。

And as we mentioned earlier, the -- the decrease was -- this increase was partially reduced by -- or offset by the decrease in production revenue we experienced in the fourth quarter to do project delays. The gross margin for Products improved 1% in 2025 to 33.2% from 32.2% in 2024.

如同我們先前提到的，這項增加部分被——或被抵銷——我們在第四季因專案延遲而出現的生產營收下滑所抵銷。產品分部毛利率在 2025 年改善 1 個百分點，從 2024 年的 32.2% 提升至 33.2%。

Our Services revenue increased 3% year over year to $16.6 million in 2025 compared to $16.1 million in 2024. And this is due primarily to higher billable activity and an increase -- a slight increase in operating hours of the equipment that's being serviced.

我們 2025 年服務營收年增 3%，達 1,660 萬美元，較 2024 年的 1,610 萬美元增加。主要原因是可計費活動增加，以及受維護設備的運轉時數小幅上升。

Our Services gross margin decreased 8.9% to 38.6% in 2025 from 47.5% in 2024. And this is due to increased labor and material cost incurred as we invested in new engines and new performance upgrades to the sites in New York City. The intention of these investments is expected to reduce labor hours needed per system going forward.

我們 2025 年服務毛利率下降 8.9 個百分點，從 2024 年的 47.5% 降至 38.6%。這是因為我們投資於新引擎以及紐約市據點的新效能升級，導致人力與材料成本增加。這些投資的目的，是希望未來每套系統所需的人力工時能夠降低。

The decline in margin is presently only in the cogeneration equipment. Our chillers continue to generate expected and very strong margins. Therefore, we plan to institute both price increases for our cogeneration equipment in the Greater New York City area and make significant cost reductions in the territory -- sorry, significant cost reductions in the territory to restore this region to higher profitability.

目前毛利率下滑僅出現在熱電共生設備上。我們的冷水機仍持續產生符合預期且非常強勁的毛利。因此，我們計畫在大紐約市地區對熱電共生設備實施漲價，並在該區域進行大幅成本削減——抱歉，是在該區域進行顯著的成本削減——以使該地區恢復較高的獲利能力。

Our Energy Production revenue decreased 37% in 2025 to $1.3 million from $2.1 million in the fourth -- in 2024. And again, this is due to contract expirations in the latter part of 2023 and early 2024 and temporary site closures for our peers. Our Energy Production gross margins decreased to 28.3% from 38.0% in 2024.

我們 2025 年能源生產營收較 2024 年的 210 萬美元下降 37%，至 130 萬美元。同樣地，這是因為 2023 年後期與 2024 年初的合約到期，以及我們同業的據點暫時關閉。我們的能源生產毛利率由 2024 年的 38.0% 降至 28.3%。

That concludes the results review, and I'll turn the call over to Abinand for his closing remarks.

以上為業績回顧，接下來我把電話交給 Abinand 做結語。

Thank you, Roger. So I think the single biggest improvement that we have seen in the last five months is really the securing of the first demonstration project. I personally believe that this will be the catalyst for everything else that will come and will also unlock the much broader opportunity that we have been pursuing.

謝謝你，Roger。我認為過去五個月我們看到的最大單一改善，確實是成功取得第一個示範專案。我個人相信，這將成為推動後續一切的催化劑，也會解鎖我們一直在追求的更廣泛機會。

In a world where AI tokens are, per unit of power, is the new metric, we provide the simplest and most cost-effective way for a data center to obtain more power, which directly results in more compute and more revenue. We have a robust pipeline of opportunities, the demonstration project, and I think all the pieces are coming together to unlock the larger projects on the multibillion-dollar data center cooling opportunity.

在一個以「每單位電力可產生的 AI tokens」作為新衡量指標的世界裡，我們提供資料中心取得更多電力最簡單、也最具成本效益的方法，這將直接帶來更多算力與更多營收。我們擁有強健的機會管線、示範專案，我認為所有拼圖正逐步到位，將解鎖資料中心冷卻這個數十億美元級機會中的更大型專案。

Thanks for listening, and I'll open the floor for questions.

感謝各位收聽，接下來開放提問。

(Operator Instructions) Chip Moore, ROTH Capital.

(接線員指示) Chip Moore，ROTH Capital。

Hey. Good morning. Thanks for taking the question. Hey, Abinand, maybe starting there where you finished on the Vertiv demonstration project. So I think you said expect this to shift later in Q2. Help us think about how quickly that should be up and running? And real-world data, when that should flow? And I assume this plays a role in 25 to 50 megawatts that you mentioned that they're in the process of designing.

嗨。早安。謝謝讓我提問。嗨，Abinand，也許就從你剛才提到的 Vertiv 示範專案開始。我想你說預期會延後到第二季稍晚。能否幫我們理解一下，這個專案應該多快能上線運轉？以及實際世界的數據大概何時會產出？我也假設這會與你提到他們正在設計中的 25 到 50 兆瓦專案有關。

Just when could we conceivably see some of those move to orders once that demonstration project is up and running?

一旦示範專案上線運轉後，我們大概何時有可能看到其中一些轉為訂單？

So I think the two pieces will move concurrently. So the -- this unit, if it ships in Q2, is actually going to go and get tested almost immediately in their thing because what typically happens in a lot of these projects that we have is the end customer would like to see -- how is the chiller going to run in, let's say, 110-degree ambient at a certain chilled water output.

我認為這兩個部分會同步推進。所以——如果這台機組在第二季出貨，實際上會幾乎立刻在他們那邊進行測試，因為我們許多專案通常會發生的情況是，終端客戶會想看到——例如在 110 華氏度的環境溫度下、在特定冷凍水輸出條件下，冷水機會如何運轉。

So what this does, because we -- with our conventional DTx chiller, our own test cell, we can run a lot of those conditions here. But we can't control for 110-degree ambient or 120-degree ambient. So the Vertiv test chamber allows us to do this, but it also acts as a way for a potential customer to come and see it as well, right?

因此這件事的意義在於，因為我們——用我們傳統的 DTx 冷水機、在我們自己的測試艙（test cell）裡，我們可以在這裡跑很多這類條件。但我們無法控制 110 華氏度或 120 華氏度的環境溫度。Vertiv 的測試艙讓我們可以做到這點，同時也成為潛在客戶可以前來觀看的方式，對吧？

That's usually a very good way to close projects. So the designing of the projects in the background, that's going to happen, currently, and they're going to continue marketing, and they're getting opportunities.

這通常是促成專案成交的一個非常好的方式。至於背景中的專案設計，會在目前持續進行，他們也會繼續行銷並取得機會。

I can't talk very specifically on timing on their projects because at this point, it's either confidential or we don't yet have enough clarity on it. What I think it's going to do, this demonstration project, the hope is to have it actually running no later actually than the end of Q2.

我無法非常具體地談他們專案的時程，因為此刻要嘛屬於機密，要嘛我們目前還沒有足夠清晰的資訊。我認為這個示範專案希望能在不晚於第二季末之前實際運轉起來。

What we think it will do is act as both providing the feedback for some of the bigger projects that we have and also for some of the potential customers where they may want to use their chillers in certain environments like, let's say, Texas.

我們認為它將同時扮演兩個角色：一是為我們一些更大型的專案提供回饋；二是讓某些潛在客戶在特定環境中（例如德州）可能想使用他們的冷水機時，能夠作為展示與驗證。

They want to know that this chiller would -- what output it will put out at different ambient temperatures. So that's also what you will get out of this, and it's really, I would say, an independent validation as well of our chiller, right? And a massive load of support for Vertiv that they're essentially putting this together.

他們想知道這台冷水機在不同環境溫度下——會輸出什麼樣的效能/產能。所以你也會從這裡得到這些結果，而且我會說，這也等於是對我們冷水機的一種獨立驗證，對吧？而且這對 Vertiv 來說也是非常大量的支持，因為基本上是他們在把這件事整合起來。

Understood. That's helpful. I appreciate that. And maybe for your own internal pipeline, that slide, your highest -- I think you stacked them in order, that one where you're in final stages of negotiation, and you could see orders here. I think you said Q2, Q3 for a '27 type of project. Just any more you can expand on that on where that stands, what they want to see, when that could move forward?

了解。這很有幫助。謝謝你。另外也許就你們內部的案源管線來看，那張投影片，你最高的——我想你是按順序堆疊的——那張你們處於談判最後階段、而且可以看到訂單的那張。我記得你說那是一個類似 2027 年的專案，時間點在 Q2、Q3。你能否再多展開說一下目前進度如何、他們想看到什麼、以及什麼時候可能往前推進？

So I don't want to predict timing because I think it's extremely hard to predict the timing. What I will say is the smaller projects -- actually -- firstly, the DTx is -- there's we've already got the test data, and a lot of these smaller ones, they've seen our equipment in other places. There, the smaller projects also find it easier to get tenants. So the odds of it moving faster is much, much higher.

所以我不想預測時程，因為我認為要預測時程非常困難。我能說的是，小型專案——其實——首先，DTx 是——我們已經有測試數據了，而且很多這些較小的案子，他們在其他地方也看過我們的設備。另外，小型專案也更容易找到承租戶。所以它更快推進的機率要高得多、非常非常高。

And also, things like financing and getting approvals for environmental permits tend to be much easier for the smaller projects. Because some of the greater than 100-megawatt projects, you've got more hurdles to go through on the back end to make sure the local site approvals, all of that happens without an issue, and then also having the tenants.

而且像融資以及取得環評許可的核准，對小型專案來說通常也容易得多。因為一些超過 100 兆瓦的專案，你在後端需要跨過更多門檻，確保地方場址核准等所有事項都能順利完成，另外也要有承租戶。

What we're seeing more broadly in the data center industry is you're getting a lot of the neocloud on the -- as potential tenants. And there's quite a few of the smaller scale neoclouds that are interested in these smaller scale projects, which makes it much more likely that these things will go through.

我們在資料中心產業更廣泛看到的是，越來越多新型雲端（neocloud）業者成為潛在承租戶。而且有不少規模較小的 neocloud 對這些較小規模的專案有興趣，這使得這些案子更有可能通過並落地。

But I don't want to predict timing. All I know is that in many of these cases, the customer expects to be operational by early next year. So to really be able to get equipment in order to get everything delivered in that time and actually constructed on site, they need to move quickly.

但我不想預測時程。我只知道，在很多這類案例中，客戶預期在明年年初就要開始營運。所以要能在那個時間點前下單取得設備、並在現場完成交付與施工，他們就必須快速推進。

Helpful. Very helpful. And maybe a last one for me, just on the manufacturing side. It sounds like you've made some good strides and you've got some potential with Vertiv as well. Just -- what's the highest priority? What are you focused on? What do you need to do here to get prepared? Thanks.

有幫助。非常有幫助。我最後再問一個，關於製造端。聽起來你們已經取得一些不錯的進展，而且與 Vertiv 也有一些潛在合作。想請教——最高優先事項是什麼？你們目前聚焦在哪些事情？為了做好準備，你們還需要做什麼？謝謝。

I think we've gotten most of the key pieces together now because a lot of that was getting the subcontractors qualified and really get first articles from them and then get the first article checked internally to make sure that it meets our quality standards. And that if we can get the different pieces from them and it arrives at our factory, we can just do the final assembly, test it, get it out the door.

我認為我們現在已經把大多數關鍵環節都整合到位了，因為其中很大一部分工作是讓分包商通過資格認證，並真正取得他們的首件（first article），然後在內部檢驗首件，確保符合我們的品質標準。如果我們能從他們那裡取得各個零組件並送達我們工廠，我們就只需要做最後組裝、測試，然後出貨。

So getting the subcontractors qualified was really the key. And I think we've now done that. And also, these subcontractors have significant scale-up capability already. So there is -- I believe -- like those pieces are now together, especially for the dual power source chiller.

所以讓分包商通過資格認證確實是關鍵。我想我們現在已經完成了。而且這些分包商本身也已具備顯著的擴產能力。所以——我相信——這些拼圖現在都到位了，特別是針對雙電源冷水機。

The DTx, I think our supply chain was reasonably robust to start with. So I think we have the ability -- because a lot of the bigger components from the DTx are built by some very large companies already. So we can get scale up from them without too much of a problem.

至於 DTx，我認為我們的供應鏈一開始就相當穩健。所以我覺得我們有能力——因為 DTx 的許多大型關鍵部件本來就是由一些非常大型的公司製造。因此我們可以從他們那裡擴產，不會有太大的問題。

It was a dual power source chiller really with the size of the machine as well as making sure that we weren't having a lot of time on the floor in our factory here to get some of the bigger components built outside and brought in. That was really the key. And I think we've now done that.

真正比較需要處理的是雙電源冷水機：一方面是機器本身的尺寸，另一方面是要確保我們在這裡工廠的產線佔用時間不要太長，因此要把一些較大型的部件放到外部製造後再運回來。那才是關鍵。而我認為我們現在已經做到這點了。

Got it. And maybe the follow-on. With a lot of that heavy lifting done, it sounds like maybe you don't need to sacrifice non-data center orders if you start to see demand pick up in some of those other areas?

了解。那我接著問。既然大部分繁重的前置工作都完成了，聽起來如果你們開始看到其他領域需求回升，可能就不需要犧牲非資料中心的訂單了？

Correct. I think we are going to see quite a bit more in non-data center projects as well. We -- on the sales efforts and the marketing efforts, we essentially split the sales team to have some people handling non-data center and some handling the data center.

沒錯。我認為我們也會在非資料中心專案看到更多需求。我們——在銷售與行銷的投入上，基本上把銷售團隊拆分，一部分人負責非資料中心，一部分人負責資料中心。

Part of the lumpiness on the product side is just -- what we've seen overall in the industry is we used to get a consistent amount of small multifamily like one unit, two unit orders that were steady flow. With the anti-gas sentiment in some of the bigger cities like New York and Boston, that portion had declined.

產品端的波動性（lumpiness）有一部分原因是——我們在整個產業看到的情況是，以前我們會持續收到穩定的小型多戶住宅訂單，例如一戶、兩戶那種，源源不絕。但由於像紐約、波士頓等一些大城市出現反天然氣的氛圍，那一塊需求就下滑了。

It's starting to come back. But what we are -- what we have a very good pipeline of is multi-unit larger projects that are going into bigger buildings. But the problem with those projects is that it -- if one project gets even slightly delayed, you've basically moved out three or four units at a time. So there's a little bit of timing issues there, but I think the pipeline is very, very robust on that.

現在開始回來了。但我們——我們有非常好的案源管線的是多戶型、較大型的專案，會進到更大型的建築物。但這些專案的問題在於——只要其中一個專案稍微延遲，你基本上一次就會往後推三、四台機組的出貨。所以時點上會有一些問題，但我認為那條管線非常、非常強勁。

All right. I appreciate it. Thanks very much.

好。謝謝你。非常感謝。

Thanks, Chip.

謝謝你，Chip。

Alexander Blanton, Clear Harbor Asset Management.

Alexander Blanton，Clear Harbor Asset Management。

Thank you. Good morning. Yeah. I'm interested in your outsourcing strategy. Because clearly, to get significant orders from data centers, they're going to have to be sure that you can deliver the quantities that you're talking about. So could you just go into a little more detail about how that's going to work? What things are going to be outsourced?

謝謝。早安。是的。我對你們的外包策略很感興趣。因為很明顯，要從資料中心拿到可觀的訂單，他們必須確信你們能交付你們所談到的那些數量。所以你能否再多說明一下這會如何運作？哪些項目會外包？

And as I take it, it's going to be -- these components will come to your refractory and just be assembled. And so you have obviously changed your manufacturing process significantly in doing that. A little more detail?

而照我的理解，會是——這些零組件會送到你們的工廠，然後只做組裝。因此你們顯然在這麼做的同時，也大幅改變了製造流程。能否再多一些細節？

Yeah. No, that's a great question. So let me start with the end portion, which is we didn't actually change our manufacturing process necessarily. When we design that -- the dual power source chiller, we always designed it with the option of being able to either do all of it in-house or have large portions of it built in subassemblies that then came internally.

是的。不，這是個很好的問題。我先從最後那一段開始說，也就是我們其實不一定有改變我們的製造流程。當我們設計——雙電源冷水機時，我們一開始就把它設計成可選擇：要嘛全部內製，要嘛把其中很大一部分做成子組件（subassemblies）在外部製作，然後再送回內部。

The other thing that we always did on that product was to use a lot of components that are built in larger volume to start with so that we could, with volume, also see an increase in margin. So in other words, it was -- but when you think about the dual power source chiller, right, I think of it in certain blocks. You have one big block, which is really the refrigeration assembly.

另外，我們在那個產品上一直採用許多本來就以較大產量生產的零組件，這樣隨著出貨量提升，我們也能看到毛利率的提升。換句話說，它是——但當你思考雙電源冷水機時，對吧，我會把它視為幾個模組區塊。你有一個很大的區塊，基本上就是製冷系統總成。

So that handles the -- it's similar to an electric chiller. It has your compressors, that has your fans, it has your sheet metal assembly. Then you have the power assembly, which has the engine on the generator. And then we have the power conversion or the electronics, which is really your -- the dual power source technology.

所以這就涵蓋了——它類似於電動冷水機。它有壓縮機、有風扇，還有鈑金組件。接著是動力組件，也就是發電機上的引擎。然後是電力轉換或電子系統，這其實就是你們的——雙電源技術。

The combination of the engine and the inverter and power electronics technology is very similar to InVerde. The biggest challenge we have in our manufacturing space is just in terms of just physical footprint on floor space.

引擎、逆變器以及電力電子技術的組合，與 InVerde 非常相似。我們在製造場地面臨的最大挑戰，主要就是廠房地面空間的實體占用（footprint）。

And also -- the -- like we historically have built numerous InVerde units. So we can build those in volume very, very easily. As long as electronics show up preassembled, we can make it with our engine system, our generator and essentially build that power electronics and engine package very quickly.

另外——我們過去歷來製造過大量 InVerde 機組。所以我們可以非常、非常容易地進行量產。只要電子系統以預組裝形式到貨，我們就能搭配我們的引擎系統、發電機，基本上很快就能把那套電力電子與引擎套件組裝完成。

The refrigeration assembly, it's -- you're dealing with a lot of sheet metal. It's not necessarily something that is best done in our factory here because if we can reduce time on the floor by having somebody that build similar assemblies for other electric chiller companies, then we can essentially have that portion pre built, pretested, it can come to us, and get made it with the power electronics assembly.

至於製冷組件——你要處理大量鈑金。這未必是在我們這裡的工廠最適合做的事情；因為如果我們能透過讓那些替其他電動冷水機公司製作類似組件的廠商來做，來縮短我們在產線地面上的時間，那麼那一部分就可以預先製作、預先測試，送到我們這裡，再與電力電子組件一起整合。

The other big advantage of really focusing on the power electronics assembly is it gives you -- or power electronics and engine assembly is it gives you other options as well, including beyond just pure chillers. It gives you the option of being able to power things like fans in a data center or other loads and where you can arbitrage that to power sources. So you can not only get a volume boost, but you can also open up a broader market.

而真正把重點放在電力電子組件上的另一個重大優勢是——或者說電力電子與引擎組件——它也會給你其他選項，不僅僅是純冷水機。它讓你可以為資料中心的風扇或其他負載供電，並且你可以在不同電源之間做套利式的切換。因此你不僅能提升出貨量，還能打開更廣泛的市場。

But going back to your question of putting these two together, it's -- essentially, a lot of that cheap metal assembly, it's better done by people that's all they specialize in. And they have the volume throughputs. And usually, they're vertically integrated, starting from the sheet metal, all the way to all of the different components, and they're already buying a lot of those subcomponents in volume.

但回到你把這兩者結合的問題——基本上，那些便宜的金屬組裝件，最好交給專門做這個的人。他們有量產的吞吐量。而且通常他們是垂直整合的，從鈑金一路到各種不同零組件，並且他們已經在大量採購許多子零組件。

So getting that as a single assembly, bringing it into our factory, making it with the power system and then shipping it out is one way to do it. Eventually, we could even ship that power assembly to the sheet metal manufacturer, they do the final assembly.

所以把它作為單一組件取得，運到我們工廠，與動力系統整合後再出貨，是一種做法。最終，我們甚至可以把那套動力組件運到鈑金製造商那邊，由他們完成最終組裝。

Everything is pretested at each location, and then it's shipped. So there's different ways to significantly improve volume and also hit delivery times using that approach.

每個地點都會先行完成預測試，然後再出貨。因此，透過這種方式，有不同方法可以大幅提升產量，同時也能達成交期。

Well, given these -- given the constraints, what's your effective capacity, then? If you have your subcontractor do the assembly, it seems to me that it expands quite a bit.

那麼，在這些——在這些限制條件下，你們的有效產能是多少？如果由分包商來做組裝，看起來對我而言產能會擴大不少。

Yeah. I mean, I would still say today, I would use what I'd said in our -- I think the last call or the call before, where I'd say about 100 units is where we're targeting. I believe it can increase further from there. But that seems like with a little bit of a ramp-up that's fully achievable. And then from there with some optimization, it's likely that you can increase further from there.

是的。我的意思是，我今天仍會沿用我在——我想是上一次或上上次電話會議中提到的說法：我們的目標大約是 100 台。我相信還可以在此基礎上再提高。但看起來只要稍微爬坡（ramp-up），這是完全可達成的。然後在此之後再做一些優化，很可能還能再往上提升。

100 units -- or what time period?

100 台——是指什麼時間期間？

I would say per year. I think it's possible to go higher than that, but I think this is something that we've looked at and looked at the details on what it takes to get there. And it is possible to scale up substantially from there. It's just this, I think, is a good starting point. It will allow us to get many of the opportunities that we have on that pipeline. And then from there, there are different ways to figure out how you scale from that.

我會說是每年。我認為有可能高於這個數字，但我想這是我們已經研究過、也看過達成所需細節的目標。而且從那個水準起，要再大幅擴產是可行的。只是我認為這是一個好的起點。它能讓我們把管線中的許多機會落地。然後從那裡開始，再有不同方式去思考如何從這個規模繼續擴張。

And what's the dollar volume of 100 units?

那 100 台的美元金額規模是多少？

I don't want to comment on exact dollar numbers since we don't put pricing out. But I would say it's at least 3 times to 4 times of what we've done in our highest year. So I'd say at least $30 million to $40 million of product, likely more.

我不想評論精確的美元數字，因為我們不對外公布定價。但我會說，至少是我們歷史最高年度的 3 倍到 4 倍。所以我會說至少是 3,000 萬到 4,000 萬美元的產品金額，可能還會更多。

And that would be just for the data centers?

而那只是針對資料中心嗎？

Correct.

正確。

It doesn't include the cogeneration and other products for other markets, right?

不包含熱電共生（cogeneration）以及其他市場的其他產品，對吧？

That is correct.

沒錯。

Okay. Thank you.

好的。謝謝。

Barry Haimes, Sage Asset Management.

Barry Haimes，Sage Asset Management。

Hi. Thanks so much for taking my question. My question relates to the master agreement negotiation or renegotiation you're doing with Vertiv. Could you talk a little bit about -- what are your goals in doing that? And what are their goals, given that you already had an agreement? Thanks so much.

你好。非常感謝讓我提問。我的問題與你們正在與 Vertiv 進行的主協議（master agreement）談判或重新談判有關。你能否談談——你們這麼做的目標是什麼？以及在你們已經有一份協議的情況下，他們的目標又是什麼？非常感謝。

Yeah. So if you look at the marketing agreement we have with Vertiv, right, the way it's structured, it says that this is the placeholder while we go through the full master agreement. So if you look at the marketing agreement, it has various terms that are to do with supply and delivery, things like that, that currently are not binding terms within that agreement. And all it does is it takes that marketing agreement and expand it so it has all those different portions.

好的。如果你看我們與 Vertiv 的行銷協議（marketing agreement），它的架構是：在我們完成完整主協議之前，這份協議作為一個過渡性的占位安排。所以如果你看行銷協議，裡面有各種與供應與交付相關的條款等等，但目前在該協議中並不是具約束力的條款。它所做的就是把那份行銷協議擴充，讓它涵蓋所有那些不同的部分。

It was always designed from day one to go into that broader agreement so that we could actually supply as an improved supplier and have this marketing portion rolled in as part of this broader agreement.

從第一天起，它就被設計為要進入那份更廣泛的協議，這樣我們才能以核准供應商（approved supplier）的身分實際供貨，並把這個行銷部分納入該更廣泛協議的一部分。

Okay. Great. And what's the timing on when you expect that to get finalized and signed?

了解。很好。那你們預期何時會定案並簽署？

At this point, I can't really comment on timing because it's ongoing.

就目前而言，我無法對時程多做評論，因為仍在進行中。

Okay. Thanks. Appreciate it.

好的。謝謝。感謝。

(Operator Instructions) Kris Tuttle, Blue Caterpillar.

（接線員指示）Kris Tuttle，Blue Caterpillar。

Great. Thanks for taking a couple of questions from me. First of all, I know it's not the sexy part of the business, but I wanted to go back to what you were talking about in terms of some of the investments you've had to make on lowering your service cost. I mean, these are mechanical units, which, I guess, in most cases, have a nonlinear graph of supporting maintenance costs over time.

很好。謝謝讓我問幾個問題。首先，我知道這不是業務中最吸引人的部分，但我想回到你剛才談到的：你們為了降低服務成本所必須做的一些投資。我的意思是，這些是機械設備，我想在多數情況下，支援維護成本隨時間推移的曲線是非線性的。

And so I'm a little -- I wanted to understand more about how you're situated in terms of if you have older inventory out there. Is this -- how much are you still on the hook for in terms of what would normally be a customer cost? It seems like you guys had to spend some of your own money on that in Q4.

所以我有點——我想更了解你們目前的狀況：如果外面有較舊的存量設備。這部分——就通常應該由客戶負擔的成本而言，你們還需要承擔多少？看起來你們在第四季為此花了一些自有資金。

Yeah. So that's a great question. So it is -- so the way the service contracts work. On the cogeneration units, we charge per run hour. So every unit that machine runs, we charge per an hour on those. And the service contract includes components, everything inside the cogeneration cost. So -- and we -- most contracts are either three-year, five-year, but they auto -- in many cases, the customers renew it.

是的。這是個很好的問題。所以——服務合約的運作方式是這樣。在熱電共生機組上，我們按運轉小時收費。也就是每台機器每運轉一小時，我們就按小時計費。而服務合約包含零組件，包含熱電共生成本內的所有內容。所以——而且我們——多數合約是三年、五年期，但它們會自動——在很多情況下，客戶會續約。

The reason the contracts were structured that way was so that the customer has some actually predictable expenses, and it would allow the business to have a recurring stream of cash flow. But as the costs in places like New York have gone up, like the labor costs have gone up substantially and the time to get from sites has gone up, the labor efficiency has gone way down.

合約之所以那樣設計，是為了讓客戶的支出在某種程度上可預測，並讓公司能有持續性的現金流入。但隨著像紐約這類地區的成本上升，例如勞動成本大幅增加、往返各據點所需時間也變長，勞動效率就大幅下降。

We've also seen material cost increases, but we're -- in the other territories, the material cost increase has been absorbed by any increases in service contract rates. So we had two choices. We could either turn around and say, you know what, these service contracts are no longer profitable. We either get out of that service contract or figure out a way to make those service contracts profitable.

我們也看到材料成本上升，但在其他區域，材料成本的增加已被服務合約費率的上調所吸收。所以我們有兩個選擇。我們可以回頭說，你知道嗎，這些服務合約已經不再有利可圖。我們要嘛退出這些服務合約，要嘛想辦法讓這些服務合約變得有利可圖。

The concern we had with essentially walking away from some of these contracts was that over time, like just as you're starting to get your data center side of things ramp up, the risk of reputational hit, right, if you walk away from a number of service contracts is high. So we felt when we looked at the numbers that with putting in new engines, we could substantially increase the service intervals. I mean, in our test cases, we got almost a 2 times increase in service intervals.

我們擔心的是，基本上若直接放棄其中一些合約，長期來看，當你的資料中心業務正要開始爬坡時，如果你退出多份服務合約，聲譽受損的風險會很高。因此我們在看過數字後認為，透過更換新引擎，我們可以大幅拉長保養/維修間隔。我的意思是，在我們的測試案例中，保養間隔幾乎提高了2倍。

I commented about a 50% increase on average. If you can do that and you don't have to go to the machine as often, the numbers suggested that we should get back up to our previous margins, which were somewhere around the 50% gross profit margin.

我提到平均大約提升50%。如果你能做到這點，而且不必那麼頻繁地到機器現場，數字顯示我們應該能回到先前的利潤率，也就是大約50%的毛利率。

That's why, yes, it was very expensive in the short term. Right? And it took us -- I mean, it pulled our loss down. But at some stage, it -- if the units -- if we can increase that service interval, the number should play out. If for some reason that they're not happening, then we'll go back and just raise our prices.

所以，是的，短期內確實非常昂貴。對吧？而且它讓我們的虧損加深了——我是說，它把我們的虧損拉低了。但在某個階段，如果這些機組——如果我們能拉長保養間隔，數字應該就會反映出來。如果因為某些原因沒有發生，那我們就會回頭直接提高價格。

Or in some cases, we will get rid of service contracts that are not profitable anymore. That's -- but in the short term, we felt that this was a better way to go, especially because you've got ongoing cash flow that comes from this. So it's much better to figure out a way to make them profitable then walk away from them.

或者在某些情況下，我們會淘汰那些已經不再有利可圖的服務合約。這就是——但短期內，我們認為這是一條更好的路，尤其因為這能帶來持續的現金流。所以，想辦法讓它們有利可圖，遠比直接放棄它們要好得多。

Yeah, that makes a lot more sense now. Were those the territories where you feel like you had the problem to address?

嗯，現在就合理多了。那些就是你覺得需要處理問題的區域嗎？

Yeah. It's really been the urban environments like just -- actually, just predominantly Greater New York, and to a certain extent, up in Toronto. Those are the two territories that really pulled it down. The chiller services in those territories continue to make good money. And part of that is just because the chiller product is built a little differently.

是的。主要是在都市環境——其實主要就是大紐約地區，另外在多倫多某種程度上也是。真正把整體表現拉下來的就是這兩個區域。而這些區域的冷水機（chiller）服務仍然很賺錢。部分原因只是因為冷水機產品的設計方式有些不同。

It tends to be a flat rate contract. And it also tends to have already very long -- like one of the reasons actually we did this was because the chiller service intervals are much longer to start with. And that's why we took some of those improvements from the chiller product, applied it to the power generation thing and said if the chiller can make money, we should be able to make the same things with the same structures and same improvements to the cogeneration and get the cogeneration units making the same margins.

它通常是固定費率合約。而且它一開始的保養間隔就已經很長——其實我們做這件事的原因之一，就是因為冷水機的服務間隔本來就長得多。因此我們把冷水機產品的一些改良拿來，套用到發電這一塊，並說如果冷水機能賺錢，我們應該也能用相同的架構與相同的改良，套用到熱電共生（cogeneration），讓熱電共生機組也能達到同樣的利潤率。

Okay. I have two other quick ones for me. Just -- one of them, can you remind us in terms of when you like your pipeline of business with the data centers and all that, and we understand they've been delayed. They've been delayed for lots of other companies. It's been very topical.

好的。我這邊還有兩個很快的問題。就是——其中一個，你能不能提醒我們，關於你們資料中心等業務的商機管線（pipeline）時程？我們知道它們一直有延後。很多其他公司也都延後了。這一直是很熱門的話題。

What are the terms? In terms of the revenue recognition and payment terms, are there any upfront payments involved like deposits, do you recognize revenue on delivery? Is there a customer acceptance period? And then what are the typical payment terms where you'd be getting that cash?

條款是什麼？就收入認列與付款條件而言，是否有任何預付款，例如訂金？你們是在交付時認列收入嗎？是否有客戶驗收期？然後一般的付款條件是什麼，你們會在什麼時點收到現金？

This is Roger. Typically, we require a down payment from customers. It can go from 25% to as much as 40%. And then revenue is recognized when title transfers. In most cases, it's ex factory.

我是Roger。一般來說，我們會要求客戶支付訂金。比例可能從25%到最高40%。然後在所有權移轉時認列收入。多數情況下是出廠交貨（ex factory）。

Sometimes, it's a destination. But for the most part, we recognize revenue when the product ships. Obviously, there are some holdback on the revenue rec for start-ups and minor things like that. But for the most part, when we ship a unit, we will recognize the revenue at that point.

有時候是目的地交貨。但大多數情況下，我們在產品出貨時認列收入。當然，針對啟動（start-ups）以及一些小項目，收入認列會有部分保留（holdback）。但基本上，我們一旦出貨一台機組，就會在那個時間點認列收入。

Okay. And payment terms, 30, 60, 90, the balance?

好的。那付款條件呢？餘款是30、60、90天？

Payment terms are generally 30 days upon customer acceptance.

付款條件一般是在客戶驗收後30天。

So usually, that would add another 30 days to -- but it --

所以通常那會再多加30天到——但它--

Yeah. Generally between 30 and 60 days, I'd say.

是的。我會說一般大概在30到60天之間。

Okay. And then last question, really helpful update on the pipeline. It sounds like things that got delayed from Q4, like they got delayed a bit into -- like not just looking into March, in the March quarter. I mean, it's -- we're now almost done with the March quarter. It sounds like expectations should be we're going to see more deliveries really starting more in Q2.

好的。最後一個問題，你們對商機管線的更新很有幫助。聽起來Q4延後的事情，延後了一點到——不只是看到3月，而是在3月這一季。我的意思是——我們現在幾乎已經快結束3月這一季了。聽起來市場預期應該是，我們會看到更多交付真正開始主要落在Q2。

Am I -- did I not hear that right? Or I know it's a little bit awkward in terms of timing, but it seems like more of these things are going to be flowing starting in 2Q, Q3.

我是不是——我是不是聽錯了？或者我知道就時間點來說有點尷尬，但看起來更多這類案子會從2Q、Q3開始陸續進來。

So the -- there's two portions of it. So some of the projects there, that's non-data center-related projects, right? Those -- there are some cannabis, some non-cannabis like hospitals and comfort cooling and things. Those are the ones that pushed out a little bit.

所以——這裡面有兩個部分。所以其中一些專案是非資料中心相關的專案，對吧？那些——有一些是大麻產業，有一些非大麻的，例如醫院、舒適性冷卻（comfort cooling）之類。那些就是稍微往後推了一點的。

The data center pipeline, it has been, I think, within the range, like your typical sales cycle is longer than what we've seen already on the data center stuff. So I would say the two are likely to come together around the same time. With data center projects, it's very much -- something could suddenly start moving equipment, like close the projects as soon as they get a tenant or a lot of pieces start to move very quickly after that.

資料中心的商機管線，我認為一直都在區間內；也就是說，你們一般的銷售週期其實比我們目前在資料中心案子上看到的還要長。所以我會說，這兩者很可能會在差不多的時間點匯合。資料中心專案非常——一旦他們找到租戶，或很多環節開始動起來，可能就會突然開始調動設備，並很快把專案結案。

With the non-data center projects, usually the timing is contingent on if they're doing, let's say, air conditioning load, then they would usually do that off season. So they would plan to take equipment deliveries in the fall and winter so that they could do the construction of the chiller plant in the off-season. So that typically moves that timing. And then with cannabis, a lot of it is just tied to their financing timing. If they can get financing, the project moves.

至於非資料中心專案，時程通常取決於他們在做什麼；比方說如果是空調負載，那他們通常會在淡季進行。所以他們會規劃在秋冬收貨，這樣就能在淡季施工建置冷水機系統（chiller plant）。因此時程通常會被這樣推移。而大麻相關的部分，很多只是取決於他們的融資時點。如果他們能取得融資，專案就會推進。

Okay. So therefore, you can have some reasonable volume in Q1?

好的。所以因此，你們在Q1也可能會有一些合理的出貨量？

Reasonable. But I think a lot of this right now, right? I think some of the bigger projects will close. I think we've got enough over there. That timing is very hard to predict.

合理。但我認為現在很多事情都是這樣，對吧？我認為一些較大的專案會結案。我認為我們那邊已經夠了。那個時點非常難以預測。

Yeah. Understood. Understood. All right. I've got some other technical questions, but those are best left for another time. Thanks a lot, fellows, for the answer.

是的。了解。了解。好。我還有一些其他技術問題，但那些最好留到下次再談。非常感謝各位的回答。

Thanks, Kris.

謝謝你，Kris。

[Matt Sweden, ginvesting.com].

[Matt Sweden，ginvesting.com]。

Hi. Good morning, Abinand. A quick question. I just recall, I think from previous conversations with you, at least maybe during earnings calls, that you really see hyperscalers as an opportunity. But in the last few calls, you've mentioned them. So I'm trying to understand what's changed there. Is that from the cooling side or power side? And maybe you could maybe touch on that a little bit for a few seconds?

嗨。早安，Abinand。我有個簡短問題。我記得，至少在之前與你的一些對話中，可能是在法說會上，你確實把超大規模業者（hyperscalers）視為一個機會。但在最近幾次電話會議中，你提到了他們。所以我想了解那裡有什麼改變。這是來自冷卻端還是電力端？也許你可以花幾秒鐘稍微談一下？

Yeah. So that's a great question, [Nash]. So originally, we felt that the hyperscalers, the validation process and a lot of this thing might just be out of what we would be able to do. But as we have started to go after many of these projects on the colocation side of things, we found that we've gotten -- we've either met hyperscalers at trade shows or direct outreach to hyperscalers has resulted in actually very positive engagement.

是的。所以這是個很好的問題，[Nash]。一開始我們覺得，超大規模業者的驗證流程以及很多相關事項，可能超出我們能做到的範圍。但當我們開始在機房代管（colocation）這一端追逐許多專案時，我們發現——我們不是在展會上遇到超大規模業者，就是直接接觸超大規模業者，結果其實帶來非常正面的互動。

And the I think with a lot of this, I can't really comment on specifics on any of them, but it does seem like there is significant interest on from the hyperscale side of things. So it -- we're letting the hyperscale conversations continue. And we'll see whether that leads into. Into projects or pilot projects or what that leads to, we don't yet know. It's just they appear to be happening concurrently.

而且我想，關於這些事情我無法對任何一家做具體評論，但看起來超大規模端確實有相當大的興趣。所以——我們讓與超大規模業者的對話持續進行。然後我們會看看是否會導向——導向專案、試點專案，或是會導向什麼，我們目前還不知道。只是看起來這些事情是同時在發生。

So we're -- we're just -- we're going to pursue it. We have presented to a number of them, and there has been clear interest on the technology for the chiller side.

所以我們——我們只是——我們會去追求它。我們已經向其中幾家做過簡報，而且他們對冷水機（chiller）端的技術有明確興趣。

So -- and I think the power side, at this point, we're not leading with it, but there may be interest on some of the ancillary loads. But that is something that -- the chiller seems to have significant interest.

所以——而且我認為在電力端，目前我們不是以此作為主打，但在一些附屬負載（ancillary loads）上可能會有興趣。不過那是另一回事——冷水機看起來有相當顯著的興趣。

Great. I have two more additional questions, real short. I'll start with the service contracts, that business and the things you've done to decrease maintenance needs on-site, increase in service intervals. Does it make sense to do that in other jurisdictions other than where you're at now to increase margins there, too?

很好。我還有兩個額外問題，很簡短。先從服務合約談起：那塊業務，以及你們為了降低現場維護需求、拉長服務間隔所做的事情。在你們目前所在的地區以外的其他司法管轄區也這樣做，以提高那邊的毛利，是否合理？

Yeah. But we are in other jurisdictions. We're doing those -- because one of the biggest costs on the service side of things is your oil change intervals and your engine component intervals. It's better to do that when you're replacing the whole engine rather than do it on an engine with higher time. So we typically -- in other service territories, we're doing those changes, but we're doing them as we get rather than do it proactively on units.

是的。但我們其實也在其他司法管轄區。我們正在做那些——因為服務端最大的成本之一是換油週期以及引擎零組件的更換週期。在你要更換整顆引擎時做這件事，比在使用時間較長的引擎上做要更好。所以我們通常——在其他服務區域也會做這些更換，但我們是隨著需求發生才做，而不是主動在機組上預先做。

Because at some point, right, there is an expense associated with it. So it's better to do it where you're going to have the biggest return on that expense. So in other territories, we are doing it, but on a much more gradual basis.

因為在某個程度上，對吧，這是有成本支出的。所以最好把它用在能帶來最大回報的地方。因此在其他區域我們也在做，但步調會更為漸進。

At some point, you could see the overall gross margin on that business go up as places like New York catch up to being where they used to be in other areas maybe getting an improving gross margin profile. Am I understanding that correctly?

在某個時間點，隨著像紐約這樣的地區追上進度，整體而言那塊業務的毛利率可能會上升；而其他一些地區也許會呈現改善的毛利結構。我這樣理解正確嗎？

Correct. I mean, the target is across the whole service territory. We would like to have at least a 50% gross profit margin.

正確。我的意思是，目標是涵蓋整個服務區域。我們希望至少能有50%的毛利率。

Okay. And finally, I just have a question on the modular data center space. I don't know. You mentioned it in the past, like leading comments about seeing that market heating up a little bit. I was wondering if you could give us a little bit of color on what you're seeing there and if you are -- if you can? And do you see opportunity for Tecogen to play in that growth potential there?

好的。最後，我想問一下模組化資料中心這個領域。我不確定。你過去提過，像是帶到一些前瞻性的評論，說你看到那個市場有點升溫。我想知道你能否多提供一些你看到的情況，以及如果你可以的話——你是否看到Tecogen有機會參與那邊的成長潛力？

Yeah. So we have seen quite a few leads in that space. As yet, nothing has got far enough that they made it into that opportunity list that I presented. We believe, just looking at the broader picture, that there's going to be a lot of modular data centers being built, but also, there's going to be a lot more smaller scale data centers being built. Because we're seeing some of the really large data center campuses run into other hurdles such as local opposition from people that live in the area or permit problems on the really large data centers.

是的。所以我們在那個領域看到不少線索（leads）。但到目前為止，還沒有任何一個進展到足以被納入我所呈現的機會清單。我們相信，從更宏觀的角度來看，未來會建置很多模組化資料中心，同時也會建置更多小規模資料中心。因為我們看到一些非常大型的資料中心園區遇到其他障礙，例如當地居民反對，或是在超大型資料中心的許可（permit）上出現問題。

So I think there's going to be a push for the modular as well as the smaller scale data centers being built in urban environments. And in that sense, our product is like a perfect fit for that market. At this point, we're not seeing --

所以我認為，模組化以及在都市環境中建置的小規模資料中心都會被推動。在這個意義上，我們的產品非常適合那個市場。目前我們還沒有看到--

And the cooling side, right? Sorry.

是冷卻端，對吧？抱歉。

Correct.

沒錯。

Okay. That's all the questions I have. Thanks.

好的。以上就是我所有的問題。謝謝。

Thanks, Matt.

謝謝你，Matt。

Thank you. We've reached the end of our question-and-answer session. I'd like to turn the floor back over for any further or closing comments.

謝謝。我們的問答環節到此結束。我想把時間交回去，看看是否還有進一步或結語的評論。

Thank you very much for listening. And if anybody wants a further conversation on any of this, management is available to have more in-depth discussions. Thank you.

非常感謝各位收聽。如果有人想就任何內容進一步交流，管理團隊也願意進行更深入的討論。謝謝。

Thank you. That does conclude today's teleconference and webcast. You may disconnect your line at this time, and have a wonderful day. We thank you for your participation today.

謝謝。今天的電話會議與網路直播到此結束。您現在可以掛線，祝您有美好的一天。感謝您今天的參與。