Bancorp Inc (TBBK) 2025 Q4 法說會逐字稿

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to The Bancorp Inc Q4 and fiscal 2025 earnings conference call. (Operator Instructions) This call is being recorded on Friday, January 30, 2026.

女士們、先生們，早安，歡迎參加The Bancorp Inc第四季及2025財年財報電話會議。（操作員指示）本次通話於2026年1月30日星期五進行錄音。

I would now like to turn the conference over to Andres Viroslav. Please go ahead.

現在我謹將會議交給安德烈斯·維羅斯拉夫。請繼續。

Thank you, operator. Good morning, and thank you for joining us today for The Bancorp's fourth-quarter and fiscal 2025 financial results conference call. On the call with me today are Damian Kozlowski, Chief Executive Officer; and Dominic Canuso, our Chief Financial Officer. This morning's call is being webcast on our website at www.thebancorp.com. There will be a replay of the call available via webcast on our website beginning at approximately 12:00 PM Eastern Time today. The dial-in for the replay is 1888-660-6264 with passcode of 65852.

謝謝接線生。早安，感謝各位今天參加The Bancorp第四季及2025財年財務業績電話會議。今天和我一起通話的是執行長達米安·科茲洛夫斯基和財務長多米尼克·卡努索。今天早上的電話會議正在我們的網站 www.thebancorp.com 上進行網路直播。今天下午美國東部時間大約 12:00 起，您可以在我們的網站上透過網路直播收聽會議錄音。重播的撥入號碼是 1888-660-6264，密碼是 65852。

Before I turn the call over to Damian, I would like to remind everyone that our comments and responses to questions reflect management's view as of today, January 30, 2026. Yesterday, we issued our fourth quarter earnings release and updated investor presentation, both are available on our Investor Relations website. We will make certain forward-looking statements on this call.

在將電話交給達米安之前，我想提醒大家，我們對問題的評論和回答反映了管理層截至 2026 年 1 月 30 日的觀點。昨天，我們發布了第四季度收益報告和更新的投資者演示文稿，這兩份文件都可以在我們的投資者關係網站上找到。我們將在本次電話會議上發表一些前瞻性聲明。

These statements are subject to the safe harbor provisions of the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995 and are subject to risks and uncertainties that could cause actual results to differ materially from the expectations and assumptions we mentioned today. These factors and uncertainties are discussed in our reports and filings with the Securities and Exchange Commission.

這些聲明受 1995 年《私人證券訴訟改革法案》安全港條款的約束，並存在風險和不確定性，可能導致實際結果與我們今天提到的預期和假設有重大差異。這些因素和不確定因素已在我們的報告和提交給美國證券交易委員會的文件中進行了討論。

In addition, we will be referring to certain non-GAAP financial measures during this call. Additional details and reconciliations of GAAP to adjusted non-GAAP financial measures are in the earnings release. Please note that the Bancorp undertakes no obligation to publicly release the results of any revisions to forward-looking statements which may be made to reflect events or circumstances after the date hereof or to reflect the occurrence of unanticipated events.

此外，我們將在本次電話會議中提及某些非GAAP財務指標。有關 GAAP 與調整後的非 GAAP 財務指標的更多詳細資訊和調整表，請參閱獲利報告。請注意，銀行集團不承擔任何義務公開披露對前瞻性聲明的任何修訂結果，無論該修訂是為了反映本聲明發布日期之後的事件或情況，還是為了反映意外事件的發生。

Now I'd like to turn the call over to the Bancorp's Chief Executive Officer, Damian Kozlowski. Damian?

現在我想把電話交給 Bancorp 的執行長 Damian Kozlowski。達米安？

Thank you, Andres, and thank you for joining our call today. At the beginning of (inaudible) we announced the new brand that better represents the future of our company. It is a bold representation of the exciting future in front of us. Please refer to our website and other company marketing materials (inaudible) transformation. The Bancorp earned $1.28 a share in the fourth quarter.

謝謝安德烈斯，也謝謝您今天參加我們的電話會議。在（聽不清楚）的開頭，我們宣布了能夠更好地代表我們公司未來的新品牌。它大膽地展現了我們面前激動人心的未來。請參閱我們的網站和其他公司行銷資料（聽不清楚）轉型。該銀行集團第四季每股收益為 1.28 美元。

EPS growth year-over-year was set new trend at 16% increase for the quarter versus fourth quarter prior year. Revenue growth in the quarter, which includes both fee and spread revenue and excludes credit enhancement income was 3% versus fourth quarter prior year. For the year, GDP growth was up 17%.

本季每股收益年增16%，創下新紀錄，較上年同期成長16%。本季營收成長（包括手續費收入和利差收入，但不包括信用增級收入）比上年同期成長 3%。本年度GDP成長率為17%。

In 2025 over 2024 and total fee growth was up 21%. Our three main fintech initiatives ended the year well positioned to create significant shareholder value in the future. First, our credit sponsorship balances ended at $1.1 billion, up 40% from the third quarter 42% year-over-year. We exceeded our goal of at least $1 billion in credit sponsorship balances ending at approximately $1.1 billion. We hope to add at least two new partners this year, and we'll make announcements at the appropriate time.

2025 年比 2024 年成長了 21%。我們的三大金融科技措施在年底前就已做好充分準備，將在未來創造巨大的股東價值。首先，我們的信貸贊助餘額達到 11 億美元，比第三季成長 40%，年增 42%。我們超額完成了至少 10 億美元的信貸贊助餘額目標，最終餘額約為 11 億美元。我們希望今年至少新增兩家合作夥伴，屆時我們將在適當的時候發佈公告。

Second, our embedded finance platform development continued to progress on pace with an expected launch early this year. And third, new program implementation timelines, Cash App being the largest are on track and should deliver meaningfully both to GDV and fee revenue in 2026 and beyond.

其次，我們的嵌入式金融平台開發持續按計畫推進，預計今年年初推出。第三，新專案的實施時間表（其中規模最大的 Cash App）正在按計劃進行，應該會在 2026 年及以後對 GDV 和手續費收入產生顯著影響。

All three initiatives should be an increasingly positive effect on our financials as we move through '26 and show significant impact as we enter '27. We also made reducing our criticized assets, which include both substandard and special mention assets, these assets declined from $268 million to $194 million or 28% quarter-over-quarter. We expect more progress over the next few quarters. delinquency declined substantially from 2.19% of loans at the end of the third quarter to 1.6% at the end of the fourth quarter.

隨著我們進入 2026 年，這三項舉措應該會對我們的財務狀況產生越來越積極的影響，並在進入 2027 年時產生顯著影響。我們也減少了受批評資產，其中包括不合格資產和特別關注資產，這些資產從 2.68 億美元減少到 1.94 億美元，環比下降 28%。我們預計未來幾季將取得更多進展。貸款違約率從第三季末的2.19%大幅下降至第四季末的1.6%。

I now turn the call over to our CFO, Dominic Canuso. Dominic?

現在我將電話轉交給我們的財務長多米尼克·卡努索。多明尼克？

Thanks, Damian, and good morning, everyone. Overall, it was a strong fourth quarter and finish to 2025, building momentum on our APEX 2030 strategy. ROE was a record 30.4% in the quarter and 28.9% for the full year, continuing the trend of year-over-year improvements. Ending assets increased to $9.4 billion, up 7% versus prior year as the total loan portfolio increased $919 million to $7.26 billion, driven by $644 million in consumer fintech loans, which now constitutes 15% of our loan portfolio. In addition, in the quarter, we purchased $317 million in bonds, 82 of which were fixed rate agencies, bringing our investment portfolio to 18% of assets and relatively consistent with year-end 2024.

謝謝你，達米安，大家早安。整體而言，第四季表現強勁，為 2025 年畫上了圓滿的句號，也為我們的 APEX 2030 策略注入了新的動力。本季淨資產收益率達到創紀錄的 30.4%，全年淨資產收益率達到 28.9%，延續了逐年改善的趨勢。期末資產增加至 94 億美元，較上年增長 7%，貸款總額增加 9.19 億美元至 72.6 億美元，其中消費金融科技貸款增加 6.44 億美元，目前占我們貸款組合的 15%。此外，本季我們購買了 3.17 億美元的債券，其中 82 億美元為固定利率機構債券，使我們的投資組合佔資產的 18%，與 2024 年底的情況基本一致。

Liquidity continues to be very strong with average deposits in the quarter of $7.6 billion with an average cost of 177 basis points. 95% of our deposits are from fintech with 92% of total deposits in short. With the continued growth of credit sponsorship and our overall fintech business, non-interest income, when excluding the credit enhancement, account for just over 30% of revenue in the quarter, with approximately 90% of fees coming from the fintech business.

流動性依然非常強勁，本季平均存款額為76億美元，平均成本為177個基點。 95%的存款來自金融科技公司，其中92%為短期存款。隨著信貸贊助和我們整體金融科技業務的持續成長，不計信貸增級，非利息收入佔本季收入的 30% 以上，其中約 90% 的費用來自金融科技業務。

As Damian mentioned, we continue to see significant improvements in our leading credit metrics, including criticized assets, delinquencies and (inaudible) When excluding fintech loans, which are covered through the credit enhancement, the provision for loans in the quarter was $858,000 down significantly from $5.8 million in the third quarter. Similarly, net charge-offs in the quarter was $629,000 in also down meaningfully from the $3.3 million in the third quarter and consistent with the low end of recent historical averages.

正如達米安所提到的，我們繼續看到主要信貸指標的顯著改善，包括不良資產、拖欠率和（聽不清楚）。若排除透過信用增級措施涵蓋的金融科技貸款，本季貸款撥備為 85.8 萬美元，較第三季的 580 萬美元大幅下降。同樣，本季淨沖銷額為 62.9 萬美元，也較第三季的 330 萬美元大幅下降，與近期歷史平均值的低端一致。

Non-interest expense for the quarter was $56.2 million and included $2 million from a legal settlement relating to a previously disclosed legal proceeding initiated in 2021. We are actively engaged with our insurance company on recovery, including potentially recapturing historical legal fees.

本季非利息支出為 5,620 萬美元，其中包括 200 萬美元的法律和解金，該和解與先前披露的 2021 年啟動的法律訴訟有關。我們正積極與保險公司協商賠償事宜，包括可能追回歷史訴訟費用。

When excluding the legal settlement, costs were up only 5% versus fourth quarter of 2024, as we continue to scale our platform and reallocate resources to support continued top line growth. Lastly, we purchased $150 million of our stock or 5% of outstanding shares in the fourth quarter bringing our full year repurchases to $375 million or 12% of outstanding shares.

不計法律和解費用，與 2024 年第四季相比，成本僅成長了 5%，因為我們將繼續擴大平台規模並重新分配資源以支持收入的持續成長。最後，我們在第四季度回購了價值 1.5 億美元的股票，佔流通股的 5%，使我們全年的股票回購總額達到 3.75 億美元，佔流通股的 12%。

I'll now turn the call back over to Damian.

現在我將把電話轉回給達米安。

Thank you, Dominic. We are initiating guidance of $5.90 EPS for 2026. We are targeting at least $1.75 a share in the fourth quarter 2026. We are maintaining a preliminary guidance for '27 of $8.25 a share. Our guidance in '26 and '27 includes stock buybacks.

謝謝你，多米尼克。我們首次給出2026年每股收益5.90美元的預期。我們的目標是到 2026 年第四季每股至少達到 1.75 美元。我們維持對 2027 年每股收益 8.25 美元的初步預期。我們在 2026 年和 2027 年的業績指引中包含股票回購計畫。

'26 buybacks are forecast to be $200 million total or $50 million a quarter. Our three major fintech initiatives, platform efficiency and productivity gains from platform restructuring and AI tools, plus a high level of capital return through continued buybacks will be the driving forces beat EPS accretion. EPS gains are subject to development implementation timelines on fintech and our stock price for buybacks.

預計 2026 年的股票回購總額將達到 2 億美元，即每季 5,000 萬美元。我們的三大金融科技措施、透過平台重組和人工智慧工具提高平台效率和生產力，以及透過持續回購實現的高水準資本回報，將成為推動每股盈餘成長的驅動力。每股盈餘成長取決於金融科技的發展實施時間表以及我們股票回購的價格。

Operator, could you please open the lines for questions?

接線員，請問可以接通提問通道嗎？

(Operator Instructions)

（操作說明）

Joseph Yanchunis, Raymond James.

Joseph Yanchunis，Raymond James。

Good morning. So your outlook calls for a rather seek EPS ramp. And I understand some of the underlying revenue drivers are dependent on partner activity. Just launching embedded finance and the new Cash App Cards. Having said that, are you able to give us some more building blocks to help us bridge the EPS gap?

早安.因此，您的展望需要對每股盈餘（EPS）的成長速度做出相當正面的預測。我知道部分潛在的收入驅動因素取決於合作夥伴的活動。剛推出嵌入式金融產品和新的Cash App卡。話雖如此，您能否為我們提供更多構建模組，以幫助我們彌合每股收益差距？

Yeah. So the -- they're large revenue opportunities. And we've got more clarity now than we did last -- end of last quarter where we did not issue preliminary guidance for 2026. We're on track with our initiatives. We continue to -- I think we're going to have some interesting announcements on the credit sponsorship over the next few quarters.

是的。所以，它們蘊藏著巨大的獲利機會。現在我們比上個季度末的情況更加明朗，當時我們沒有發布 2026 年的初步指引。我們的各項計劃進展順利。我認為在接下來的幾個季度裡，我們將就信貸贊助方面發布一些有趣的公告。

And then we're going to be launching our embedded finance platform because we're at the stage now where we're confident that we'll be able to complete the platform for certain use cases by the beginning of '26. We're very clear on the -- because of other program implementation guidelines, we now can better predict where we're going to be at the end of the year. And we think we're confident that we can hit that $175 million number at the end of '26. And then '27, if we stay on track where we are with our plans, '27 could be a really interesting year for the company.

然後我們將推出我們的嵌入式金融平台，因為我們現在有信心在 2026 年初完成該平台的某些用例。由於其他專案實施指南，我們現在可以更清楚地預測到年底我們將達到什麼目標。我們很有信心在 2026 年底達到 1.75 億美元的目標。那麼，如果我們的計劃能夠按部就班地進行，那麼 2027 年對公司來說可能會是非常有趣的一年。

Okay. I appreciate that. And if we just go back to the fourth quarter, you called out a couple of drivers or a few drivers that kind of weighed on results. Are you able to unpack those a little bit more?

好的。我很感激。如果我們回顧第四季度，你指出了幾位對比賽結果產生影響的車手。能再詳細解釋一下嗎？

Sure. Morning, Joe, this is Dominic. Yeah, I think the first, obviously, we called out the legal fees. The second driver was just the unexpected duration of the government shutdown, which we believe affected the global economy and flow of both payments and deposits through the business. So reducing GDV slightly versus the higher expectation and run rate we had been at earlier in the year and affected our balance sheet mix, which were the two primary drivers, again, with GDV being part of that.

當然。早安，喬，我是多明尼克。是的，我認為首先，很顯然，我們提出了法律費用問題。第二個驅動因素是政府停擺持續時間出乎意料，我們認為影響了全球經濟以及企業支付和存款的流動。因此，與年初較高的預期和運行速度相比，GDV 略有下降，這影響了我們的資產負債表結構，而資產負債表結構是兩個主要驅動因素，GDV 也是其中的一部分。

And then lastly, while you saw significant growth in our credit sponsorship balances. Most of that was at the end of the fourth quarter, which demonstrates the anticipated growth we expect through 2026, but it occurred later in the quarter than we expected. So we didn't generate as much average balance income that we had expected throughout the quarter. So those are the three minor -- major drivers. And while they affected in the quarter where we ended the quarter tees us up to achieve the full year and fourth quarter 2026 expectations that we've articulated.

最後，您也看到我們的信貸贊助餘額出現了顯著增長。其中大部分成長發生在第四季末，這表明我們預期到 2026 年將實現成長，但成長發生的時間比我們預期的要晚。因此，我們本季的平均餘額收入並未達到預期。所以以上就是三個次要的──主要驅動因素。雖然它們對我們本​​季的業績產生了影響，但本季末的業績為我們實現全年和 2026 年第四季的預期目標奠定了基礎。

Okay. So a potential weekend government shutdown is not going to have -- that wouldn't be called out as a potential 1Q '26 headwind? Did everything come back online?

好的。所以，週末可能發生的政府停擺不會——這不會被視為2026年第一季的潛在不利因素嗎？所有網路都恢復正常了嗎？

Yeah. We don't think so because we're already receiving -- it's going to be a very large tax year. There's no doubt about it. We're already receiving a substantial amount of tax [remittances] that will go through our partner programs. So it's -- the first you never -- it hasn't happened yet, but early indications where there's been a lot of talk about how good this tax season, we're seeing it.

是的。我們不這麼認為，因為我們已經收到了——這將是一個稅收非常大的一年。這點毋庸置疑。我們已經收到大量稅款[匯款]，這些稅款將透過我們的合作夥伴計劃進行處理。所以，這是——你從未見過的第一次——雖然還沒有發生，但早期跡象表明，人們一直在談論今年的報稅季有多麼好，我們正在看到這一點。

And obviously, it will -- it's going to go to the underbanked and newly developed client -- wealth clients. So it should have a very good positive impact. And it should also affect our second quarter also as that gets spent through our programs.

顯然，它將服務於那些銀行服務不足的新興客戶群——富裕客戶。因此，它應該會產生非常好的正面影響。而且，由於第二季的支出會透過我們的專案進行，因此也會對我們第二季的業績產生影響。

Got it. And then one more for me here. So in your deck, you talked about -- you exited the quarter with $400 million in off-balance sheet deposits. Can you talk about the economics of this program? And should we expect all future deposit flows to be swept off balance sheet?

知道了。然後我這裡還有最後一個。所以，在你的簡報中，你提到——本季末，你的表外存款為 4 億美元。您能談談這個項目的經濟效益嗎？我們是否應該預期未來所有存款流入都會從資產負債表中移除？

So we do expect to continue to generate, as Damian mentioned, particularly with the tax season coming up, generating deposit growth outpacing our demand for it. And so we will continue to look at the mix of our deposits and on balance sheet, the lower costing deposits while we mix shift to the higher cost deposits of balance sheet. And I think we continue to see this as an opportunity to not only optimize our earnings but generate revenue through this excess liquidity into the systems like IntraFi, and we look to monetize that particularly as we continue to grow in the second half of the year.

正如達米安所提到的那樣，我們預計存款成長將繼續超過我們的需求，尤其是在報稅季即將到來之際。因此，我們將繼續關注資產負債表上存款和成本較低的存款組合，同時逐步調整資產負債表上成本較高的存款組合。我認為我們仍然將此視為一個機會，不僅可以優化我們的收益，還可以透過將過剩流動性注入 IntraFi 等系統來創造收入，我們希望尤其是在下半年繼續增長的情況下，能夠實現這種盈利。

Yeah. Up to now, it's all been about reducing our funding cost as we've taken the high-cost deposits off balance sheet. In the future though, as we have larger and larger excess deposits, we will have some income over the reduction in funding costs, but we haven't experienced that revenue yet.

是的。到目前為止，我們所做的一切都是為了降低融資成本，因為我們已經將高成本存款從資產負債表中移除。不過，未來隨著我們的超額存款越來越多，我們將獲得一些收入以抵消融資成本的降低，但我們目前還沒有獲得這部分收入。

Okay, perfect. Thank you for that and I'll hop back in the queue.

好的，完美。謝謝，我會重新排隊。

Emily Lee, KBW.

艾米麗李，KBW。

Hi, everyone. This is Emily stepping in for Tim Switzer. I hope you're doing well and thanks for taking my question. Yeah, so I have a few questions related to the REBL book. Can you confirm that all the announced refinancings were with entirely new partners and was there any additional equity put in? And what are the new interest rate versus old one?

大家好。這是艾米莉代替提姆‧斯威策。希望你一切都好，謝謝你回答我的問題。是的，我有一些關於 REBL 這本書的問題。能否確認所有已公佈的再融資項目都是與全新的合作夥伴進行的，並且是否有額外的股權投入？新利率與舊利率相比是多少？

Sure. Yes. So some of the refinancings were with new partners, some were recapitalizations. At the end of the day, the existing properties were incredibly stronger positions than when they're originated and then given the lower interest rate environment, there was some step down in yield in the portfolio. But all of the positions are stronger than when we originated them with stronger sponsorships and some existing partners, but mostly no.

當然。是的。因此，有些再融資是與新的合作夥伴進行的，有些是資本重組。最終，現有資產的狀況比最初建立時要好得多，而且由於利率環境較低，投資組合的收益率有所下降。但所有立場都比我們最初制定這些立場時更加堅定，因為我們獲得了更強大的贊助和一些現有的合作夥伴，但大多數情況下並非如此。

Got it. Thank you for the color. And then what is the plan for the Aubrey now? I think on the Q3 call, you indicated you hope to get more clarity in the next 30 to 60 days. So just wondering if you have any update.

知道了。謝謝你提供的色彩。那麼，奧布里接下來的計畫是什麼？我認為在第三季財報電話會議上，您曾表示希望在未來 30 到 60 天內獲得更清晰的資訊。請問您有最新消息嗎？

So we continue to see the benefits of the investments we've made to stabilize the property. Every incremental room we add increases occupancy rates. So in the last year, we've over doubled the available rooms and continue to see occupancy of available rooms in the '80s. We're getting close to breakeven on a cash flow basis, which we expect in the second quarter. So at this point, we continue to look for exit opportunities.

因此，我們持續看到為穩定該物業而進行的投資所帶來的好處。每增加一間客房，入住率就會提高。因此，在過去一年裡，我們的可用房間數量增加了一倍多，可用房間的入住率仍然保持在 80% 以上。從現金流角度來看，我們即將實現損益平衡，預計將在第二季實現。所以目前，我們仍在尋找退出機會。

But given the strength and the performance we expect in both occupancy and future positive cash flow after we get through the breakeven by mid-year we will look for broader opportunities as a stabilized property exit, which would increase the potential value that we get relative to not only our balance sheet, but the estimates that are out there.

但鑑於我們預計在年中實現盈虧平衡後，入住率和未來正現金流都將保持強勁勢頭，我們將尋求更廣泛的機會，作為一項穩定的物業退出項目，這將提高我們相對於資產負債表以及現有估值的潛在價值。

Yeah. And the appraisal is over 50, we had it reappraised and at a stabilized level now we're getting. If we're renting 80% available rooms, we have good line of sight to have completing all buildings and then having easily an 80% occupancy rate over the next couple of quarters. And then that's a -- once you get to that level, the number of buyers multiply significantly, and we have a potential to monetize, obviously, a gain on the property.

是的。評估價超過 50，我們重新評估後，現在價格穩定在了 50 以上。如果我們能出租 80% 的可用房間，我們就有很好的機會完成所有建築的建設，並在接下來的幾個季度內輕鬆達到 80% 的入住率。一旦達到那個水平，買家數量就會成倍增長，我們顯然就有可能透過房產獲利。

So we're going to -- if we're going to exit in a prudent way. This was probably the most difficult situation that we've had in our portfolio over the last five years but we're working out of it. We've retained the value. We've had multiple partners. There's a lot of people interested, but we're at a stage where we want to exit it in the right way. And now that it's approaching cash flow positive, we're going to be -- we're excited about in exiting, but we're also going to be prudent for our shareholders to make sure we get as much value out of the property as we can.

所以，如果我們要以謹慎的方式退出的話。這可能是我們過去五年投資組合中最棘手的情況，但我們正在努力克服。我們保住了價值。我們曾有過多個合作夥伴。很多人都對此感興趣，但我們現在希望以正確的方式退出。現在，該項目即將實現正現金流，我們對此感到興奮，但同時也謹慎行事，以確保股東能夠從該物業中獲得盡可能多的價值。

Great. That was helpful. Thank you. And then I have two more questions. Just there's been a lot of discussion lately about fintechs obtaining their own bank charters. And most of that in the BaaS world has then how it could be a threat to partners, no longer needing a bank sponsor. So can you respond to that? And also, just outline how there might be any opportunities here, if any?

偉大的。那很有幫助。謝謝。我還有兩個問題。最近有很多關於金融科技公司取得銀行執照的討論。而BaaS領域的大部分內容都表明，這可能對合作夥伴構成威脅，因為他們不再需要銀行擔保。你能對此作出回應嗎？另外，請簡單概述這裡可能存在哪些機會（如果有的話）？

Yeah. So in our -- with our partners, there are many partners that will -- that aren't ever going to get a license, right? So we're doing corporate payments. We're doing a lot of things across our 15 verticals governments that you're never going to need a license, right? Or you're (inaudible) obtain a license.

是的。所以，在我們與合作夥伴的合作中，有很多合作夥伴永遠不會獲得許可證，對吧？所以我們現在做的是企業支付。我們在 15 個垂直領域的政府部門進行了很多工作，這些工作你永遠不需要許可證，對吧？或者你可以（聽不清楚）取得許可證。

It's really more narrow in some of the credit sponsorship areas, but also the Chimes and the PayPals of the world. Many of them do have types of licenses like Utah, industrial banks and stuff where they might issue credit and everything. But we don't see our major partners. The reason is valuation and oversight. It's when you -- there was a lot of concentration a few years ago and a few people did get licenses.

在某些信用贊助領域，以及像 Chime 和 PayPal 這樣的公司，情況確實比較狹窄。他們中的許多人確實擁有猶他州、工業銀行等類型的許可證，可以發放信貸等等。但我們看不到我們的主要合作夥伴。原因在於估值和監管。就是幾年前，當時競爭非常激烈，有些人確實拿到執照了。

But you then get all the scrutiny, you don't -- remember, our -- what we deliver to clients is a middle office very scalable platform at a very low cost. And as you enter our ecosystem, you get to benefit all the information of all the programs, and we have $1.1 trillion going through the bank.

但這樣一來，你就得接受所有的審查，而不用——記住，我們——我們為客戶提供的是一個成本非常低、可擴展性很強的中台平台。當你進入我們的生態系統時，你將受益於所有項目的全部信息，而且我們銀行的資金流動量高達 1.1 兆美元。

So it's incredibly scalable. It's at very low cost. Even if you do get a license, you use our infrastructure. So it doesn't even preclude somebody getting a license and many of our partners have limited licenses of them using us because it's beneficial to them. So we don't see an impact right now on our portfolio, and we don't expect to have a major impact in the future.

因此，它的可擴展性非常強。它的價格非常低。即使你獲得了許可證，你也需要使用我們的基礎設施。所以這並不妨礙某人獲得許可，而且我們的許多合作夥伴都獲得了有限的許可來使用我們的產品，因為這對他們有利。因此，我們目前沒有看到對我們的投資組合產生影響，而且我們預計未來不會產生重大影響。

Okay. Great. Thank you. And then just if I could do one more. Can you walk us through the economics of your off-balance sheet deposits in the [Suite] program. Specifically, how much you generate off of that? And is the expectation going forward that most incremental deposit growth will flow from there?

好的。偉大的。謝謝。如果我能再做一次就好了。您能否為我們詳細介紹[Suite]計劃中表外存款的經濟效益？具體來說，你能從中賺取多少收益？未來大部分新增存款成長是否預計將來自那裡？

Sure, Emily, this is Dominic. We had just mentioned in Joe's question that as of now, the leveraging the balance sheet off-balance sheet deposits, was really a function to optimize our funding and increase our net interest margin. We believe going forward, as we continue to generate larger amounts of lower-cost deposits that's when we'll turn it into a revenue generator.

當然，艾米麗，這位是多明尼克。我們在喬的問題中剛剛提到過，目前利用資產負債表外存款進行槓桿操作，實際上是為了優化我們的融資並提高我們的淨利差。我們相信，隨著我們不斷產生更多低成本的存款，未來我們將把它變成一個獲利來源。

Now we do have plans this year to have deposit growth exceeding our balance sheet capacity and loan growth. And so we do expect some revenue generation from off balance sheet in this but we look for more potential as we continue to add partners and grow programs.

今年我們確實有計劃讓存款成長超過我們的資產負債表容量和貸款成長。因此，我們預計這方面會從表外業務中獲得一些收入，但隨著我們不斷增加合作夥伴和發展項目，我們期待更大的潛力。

It should, over time, our funding cost as we continue to generate. There's like savings deposits that are higher cost. As we take those off the balance sheet, on a relative basis to Fed funds or deposit costs will go down right? It will go down. And if you net out some of the fees that we will generate by taking even lower cost deposits off balance sheet because they'll be under Fed funds, you'll continue -- if you add that back, you'll have even a lower funding cost. So it's very -- we're in a very liquid position with a downward pressure on deposit costs based on the liquidity of the balance sheet.

隨著我們不斷創造收益，隨著時間的推移，我們的資金成本應該會降低。有些儲蓄存款的成本較高。當我們把這些資產從資產負債表中移除時，相對於聯邦基金或存款成本而言，成本就會下降，對吧？它會下降。如果扣除我們因將成本更低的存款從資產負債表中移除（因為它們將歸入聯邦基金）而產生的一些費用，你會發現——如果把這些費用加回去，你的融資成本將會更低。因此，我們目前資金流動性非常充裕，基於資產負債表的流動性，存款成本面臨下行壓力。

Great to hear. I appreciate. Thanks for taking my questions.

很高興聽到這個消息。謝謝。謝謝您回答我的問題。

Stephen Farrell, Oppenheimer.

Stephen Farrell，奧本海默。

Good morning. I just have a quick question about the REBL loans. Regarding the $102 million in criticized loans this quarter, can you provide any color on what markets they were in?

早安.我有一個關於REBL貸款的小問題。關於本季受到批評的 1.02 億美元貸款，您能否提供一些關於這些貸款涉及哪些市場的資訊？

Well, they were in a bunch of different -- there wasn't a single concentration. So we're in red and really red and purple states. We really aren't in California, New York, those type of markets. And the reason we've done that is because that's where the growing markets are, but that's also where the legal structural environment in real estate is advantageous. So for example, when we took over our asset in Houston. So we really focus on the -- it's really the Southeast lot in Texas and Florida but also places like Georgia. And there was no -- it was across our portfolio. There's really no concentration in that number.

嗯，它們分佈在很多不同的地方——沒有一個集中地。所以我們現在身處紅州、重紅州和搖擺州。我們其實並不在加州、紐約之類的市場。我們這樣做的原因是，那裡的市場正在成長，而且那裡的房地產法律結構環境也更有利。例如，當我們接管我們在休士頓的資產時。所以我們主要關注的是東南部的地區，像是德州和佛羅裡達州，還有像喬治亞州這樣的地方。而且沒有——它遍及我們所有投資組合。這個數字實際上沒有任何集中性。

Okay. And I think you mentioned that some of the LPs were recapitalized. But the principal loan balance and the refinancing was the same, right?

好的。我想你提到過，有些有限合夥企業進行了資本重組。但是貸款本金餘額和再融資金額是一樣的，對吧？

Yes. So we -- so when we do these, there's a very good marketplace after the event that happened. It happened across the industry, right? But there were definitely people pools of capital that formed that they're looking to take out other sponsors because if you think about what happened was these are three-year loans, you transition a property after two years is when you might have a problem. You can't finish your property, but now you've invested substantial amount of money and remediating the property.

是的。所以——所以當我們做這些事情的時候，活動結束後會有一個非常好的市場。這種情況在整個行業都發生了，對吧？但確實有一些資金池已經形成，他們正在尋找其他贊助商，因為如果你想想發生了什麼，這些都是三年期貸款，如果你在兩年後轉讓房產，你可能會遇到問題。你無法完成房產的修繕工作，但你現在已經投入了大量資金用於房產的修復。

Our worst asset with the Aubrey and that's close to stabilized now. But generally, it's -- they get tapped out. These will have multiple of these properties usually might have multiple investors and at some point, they get tapped out. But there's pulls of capital there that we can, and we have a great industry knowledge locally in these markets. So there's always someone who's willing to take over, in most cases, willing to take over the property, infuse more capital. Usually, the buyer will just either walk away or get some type of note. So when they monetize the property, they will get some of their investment back.

我們最差的資產是奧布里號，但現在情況已接近穩定。但總的來說，他們最終都會筋疲力盡。這些房產通常有多處，也可能有多位投資者，但總有一天，他們的資金會耗盡。但那裡有我們可以利用的資本吸引力，而且我們在這些市場擁有豐富的本地行業知識。所以大多數情況下，總是會有人願意接手，願意接管房產，並注入更多資金。通常情況下，買家要么直接放棄交易，要么會收到某種形式的欠條。所以當他們將房產變現時，就能收回部分投資。

So they're -- that formed after the -- as people got in trouble and that started to materialize in '24 in late '23, there was a lot of these sponsors. And we didn't have that many. To be honest, it was like close to 10 or 12 issues in our portfolio of 150-plus loans. But other players, as you are aware, I'm sure, had much more severe issues.

所以，這些贊助商是在人們遇到麻煩之後成立的，而這種情況在 2023 年底開始顯現，當時有很多這樣的贊助商。我們並沒有那麼多人。說實話，在我們150多筆貸款中，這類問題大概有10到12個。但正如您所知，其他玩家遇到的問題要嚴重得多。

And since we had exit debt yields that were fairly high and our loan to values were fairly low, we were able to find additional sponsors with liquidity as it started to appear in -- with investors to work out these properties and to stabilize the loan and get the path forward to full stabilization and take out usually from government entities.

由於我們的退出債務收益率相當高，貸款價值比也相當低，因此我們能夠找到更多擁有流動性的讚助商，隨著流動性開始出現，與投資者一起解決這些房產問題，穩定貸款，並找到前進的道路，最終實現完全穩定，並通常從政府實體手中退出。

That's helpful. Thank you, that's all.

那很有幫助。謝謝，就這些。

Joe Yanchunis, Raymond James.

Joe Yanchunis，Raymond James。

Great. Thanks for letting me up a couple more here. So I believe you mentioned earlier in the call that you were looking to add potentially two new partners to your credit sponsorship lending portfolio. Do you have a sense for kind of a year-end exit rate for the size of that portfolio? And should you need to rationalize other portfolios to make room? Can you talk about where you kind of start?

偉大的。謝謝允許我再加幾句。所以我相信您在之前的電話會議中提到過，您正在考慮在您的信貸贊助貸款組合中增加兩個新的合作夥伴。您對該規模的投資組合的年末退出率有什麼大致的了解嗎？那麼，您是否需要調整其他投資組合來騰出空間呢？可以說說你是如何起步的嗎？

Yeah. So we want to add at least two partners, at least two partners, and I think we've got good visibility on two partners. So we'll make announcements when appropriate. We're targeting -- and remember, the Chime program is growing pretty aggressively. So if you look at that level of growth. We haven't announced exactly where they're going to be. That's up to them.

是的。所以我們希望至少增加兩個合作夥伴，至少兩個合作夥伴，而且我認為我們已經對兩個合作夥伴有了比較清晰的了解。所以我們會適時發佈公告。我們的目標是—而且請記住，Chime 專案正在快速發展。所以，如果你看看這種成長水準。我們尚未公佈他們的具體位置。那取決於他們。

But with their growth and if you've seen the growth over time, we're -- it's going to be at least $2 billion, but it could be as high as $3 billion, right? So it's -- it really depends on the on-ramp of new partners because we have great visibility on the Chime relationship. But I think we're going to -- we could easily be double where we are today at the end of '26. And that's probably a good -- when we look at it, double where we are today is probably a good estimate of where we're going to be.

但隨著他們的發展，如果你一直關注他們的發展，你會發現——至少會有 20 億美元，甚至可能高達 30 億美元，對吧？所以，這真的取決於新合作夥伴的加入，因為我們對 Chime 的關係有非常清晰的了解。但我認為，到 2026 年底，我們的規模很容易就能達到現在的兩倍。而且，仔細想想，我們今天的兩倍可能是我們未來發展到的水平的一個很好的估計。

Thanks for that. And then also, should you need to make room on your balance sheet, what would you (inaudible)

謝謝。此外，如果您需要在資產負債表上騰出空間，您會怎麼做？（聽不清楚）

Yeah. So we've already did some restructuring that we announced. So we have a very good idea of the economics of these businesses. So the first area where we reduced our participation was in our institutional business where we do non-purpose securities loans. We also did loans for life insurance, the whole value and it's obviously liquid value of life insurance. And then we also did investor finance, which is really acquisitions in the RIA market. So we've stopped originating new loans in IBLOC and also in that RIA acquisition business.

是的。所以我們已經進行了一些重組，並且已經宣布了這些重組計劃。因此，我們對這些企業的經濟狀況有了非常清楚的了解。因此，我們減少參與的第一個領域是我們的機構業務，也就是我們進行非目的證券借貸的領域。我們也提供人壽保險貸款，貸款額度為人壽保險的全部價值，顯然是人壽保險的流動價值。然後我們也進行了投資者融資，這實際上就是RIA市場的收購。因此，我們已經停止在 IBLOC 領域發放新貸款，也停止了 RIA 收購業務。

So we think we have enough liquidity. We also have pools of capital in multiple areas where we can room. For example, we have SBA guaranteed paper that we don't have to hold. And we'll just deemphasize. We have very good understanding of the economics. So obviously, the lower spread will deemphasize first, and we already have -- we think we have enough room for '26 to do business, and it gives us plenty of runway.

所以我們認為我們有足夠的流動資金。我們在多個領域也擁有資金儲備，可以騰出空間。例如，我們有美國小型企業管理局擔保的債券，我們不必持有這些債券。我們會淡化這一點。我們對經濟學有非常深入的了解。顯然，較低的利差首先會降低利差，而且我們已經——我們認為我們有足夠的空間讓 2026 年的業務開展，這給了我們充足的緩衝期。

But ultimately, as credit sponsorship grows, we will continue to refine our businesses to distribute the loans. If you think about what we've -- the businesses we have, we either have a demand loan or in many cases, even in the real estate area, we -- and we've done this before, we've securitized the loans into CLO structures or conduit structures.

但最終，隨著信貸贊助的成長，我們將繼續改善我們的業務，以便更好地發放貸款。想想我們擁有的業務，我們要么有需求貸款，要么在很多情況下，即使在房地產領域，我們也——而且我們以前也這樣做過——將貸款證券化為 CLO 結構或導管結構。

So we have a very good visibility. We won't have a problem around getting the liquidity we need to invest in new loan areas. And the real trick of our balance sheet is velocity. So as we continue to emphasize credit sponsorship, but also in the traditional businesses, we've set them up so that we can distribute them through usual market means.

所以我們擁有非常好的能見度。我們不會遇到資金周轉困難，能夠獲得投資新貸款領域所需的流動資金。而我們資產負債表的真正訣竅在於週轉速度。因此，在我們繼續強調信貸贊助的同時，我們也在傳統業務中建立了相應的機制，以便我們可以透過通常的市場手段進行分發。

Okay. And then last one for me here. So just kind of taking your prior answer of potentially doubling your credit sponsorship loans kind of winding down some of the lower-yielding portfolios. I was hoping you could kind of put all that in the blender as well as some of your other comments and help us think about the NIM a little bit more, which has been kind of volatile, jumping around a little bit.

好的。最後，我要講最後一個了。所以，我們基本上是採納了你之前關於可能將信貸贊助貸款翻倍的回答，同時逐步減少一些收益較低的投資組合。我希望你能把這些以及你的其他一些評論都放在一起，幫助我們更深入地思考一下NIM，它一直有點不穩定，搖擺不定。

Sure, Joe. This is Dominic. So there will continue to be some variability quarter-to-quarter in the net interest margin, particularly as deposits flow through and we optimize what's on and off-balance sheet. And as Damian mentioned, what we want to do is maintain the flexibility of the balance sheet to maximize the leverage but also create room for the growth of the fintech business. So that mix that we'll see on balance sheet will affect the NIM.

當然，喬。這位是多米尼克。因此，淨利差仍會存在一些季度間的波動，尤其是在存款流動以及我們優化資產負債表內外資產負債表的過程中。正如達米安所提到的那樣，我們希望保持資產負債表的靈活性，以最大限度地利用槓桿作用，同時也為金融科技業務的成長創造空間。因此，我們在資產負債表上看到的這種組合將會影響淨利差。

We do expect some compression of the NIM throughout the year, particularly as we shift more towards fintech and double that consumption on balance sheet, which generates more fee revenue and lower cost deposits than interest income. So that as that happens naturally, our profitability will increase, but net interest margin will come down a bit, but that will be replaced by a larger mix of fee revenue as a portion of total revenue. So I think we expect NIM to compress near 4%, but as we grow fee income to be 35% of total revenue when excluding the credit enhancement.

我們預期全年淨利差會有所收窄，尤其是在我們更多地轉向金融科技領域並將資產負債表上的消費翻倍的情況下，這將產生比利息收入更多的手續費收入和成本更低的存款。因此，隨著這種情況的自然發生，我們的獲利能力將會增加，但淨利差會略有下降，不過這將被手續費收入在總收入中所佔比例的增加所取代。因此，我認為我們預計淨利差將壓縮至 4% 左右，但隨著我們不斷增長，扣除信用增級後，手續費收入將佔總收入的 35%。

Yeah, you could always add back. We have a line that's very clear in our financials that basically is interest because that's the way we base it on. We get it in fees because that's the way we need to book it through the GAAP system, but you can always add that number back and that will give you a better idea of what total NIM is. Now this is a non-GAAP measure but just to make that clear, but we get a fee, but that fee represents an interest rate that were agreed with our partner on and if you add that back, you get a better sense of the total NIM of the company, even though that is once again a non-GAAP measure.

是的，你可以隨時加回去。我們的財務報表中有一條非常清晰的記錄，它基本上就是利息，因為我們就是以此為基礎進行計算的。我們之所以將其計入費用，是因為根據公認會計準則，我們需要這樣記賬，但您可以隨時將該數字加回去，這樣就能更好地了解淨息差總額是多少。現在這是一個非公認會計準則指標，但需要說明的是，我們會收到一筆費用，但這筆費用代表了我們與合作夥伴商定的利率，如果你把這筆費用加回去，你就能更好地了解公司的總淨息差，儘管這又是一個新的非公認會計準則指標。

Perfect. That was great. Thank you for taking my question.

完美的。那很棒。感謝您回答我的問題。

There are no further questions at this time. I will now turn the call over to Damian for closing remarks.

目前沒有其他問題了。現在我將把電話交給達米安，請他作總結發言。

Thank you, everyone, for joining us on the call today. Management will be attending investor conferences and meetings throughout the quarter, including attending the KBW Winter Financial Services Conference in February, and we look forward to meeting with many of you. Have a great day. Operator, you may disconnect the call.

感謝各位今天參加我們的電話會議。管理層將在本季參加投資者會議和會談，包括參加 2 月舉行的 KBW 冬季金融服務會議，我們期待與各位見面。祝你有美好的一天。操作員，您可以掛斷電話了。

Ladies and gentlemen, this concludes your conference call for today. We thank you for participating and ask that you please disconnect your lines.

女士們、先生們，今天的電話會議到此結束。感謝您的參與，請您斷開線路。