Stellantis NV (STLA) 2025 Q2 法說會逐字稿

Hello, and welcome to the Stellantis H1 '25 pre-release of Preliminary Financial Information Call. (Operator Instructions) I now give the floor to Mr. Ed Ditmire, Head of Investor Relations, to begin this conference. Sir, the floor is yours.

大家好，歡迎參加 Stellantis 2025 年上半年初步財務資訊電話會議預發布會。（操作員指示）現在我把發言權交給投資者關係主管艾德‧迪特邁爾先生，由他來開始本次會議。先生，請您發言。

Hello, everyone, and thank you for joining us today on short notice as we review preliminary financial figures for the first half of 2025. Earlier today, the company posted a press release covering these disclosures as well as the publication of consolidated shipment volumes for the second quarter of 2025. This press release is available on the Stellantis Investor Relations website.

大家好，感謝各位在接獲通知後立即加入我們，共同回顧2025年上半年的初步財務數據。今天早些時候，該公司發布了一份新聞稿，其中涵蓋了這些披露信息，以及 2025 年第二季度綜合出貨量的公佈。本新聞稿可在Stellantis投資者關係網站上查閱。

Our call today is hosted by Doug Ostermann, Chief Financial Officer at Stellantis. And after prepared remarks, he will be available to answer questions from analysts.

今天的電話會議由Stellantis財務長Doug Ostermann主持。在發表完準備好的演講後，他將回答分析師們的提問。

Before we begin, I want to point out that any forward-looking statements we might make during today's call are subject to the risks and uncertainties mentioned in the safe harbor statement. As customary, the call will be governed by that language.

在開始之前，我想指出，我們在今天的電話會議中可能做出的任何前瞻性陳述都受到安全港聲明中提到的風險和不確定性的影響。按照慣例，通話將使用該語言。

Now I'll hand the call over to Doug.

現在我把電話交給道格。

Thank you, Ed. And to everyone who's joined us today, we very much appreciate you participating on the call. Let me discuss briefly why the company took the step of releasing preliminary H1 2025 results today and is holding this call with the investment community.

謝謝你，埃德。也感謝今天所有參與電話會議的朋友們，我們非常感謝你們的參與。讓我簡要地談談公司今天發布 2025 年上半年初步業績報告並與投資界舉行此次電話會議的原因。

On April 29, I presented the company's Q1 2025 revenue and shipments update. And we made the decision to suspend current year financial guidance really due to the uncertainties related to US tariff policy, the potential impacts on the automotive market, and the evolving Stellantis tariff response plan.

4月29日，我介紹了公司2025年第一季的營收和出貨量更新。我們決定暫停發布本年度財務預測，主要是因為美國關稅政策存在不確定性，可能對汽車市場造成影響，以及 Stellantis 關稅應對計畫不斷變化。

I've mentioned previously how the year was evolving, including disclosing an initial estimate of the net tariff impacts for 2025 of EUR1 billion to EUR1.5 billion for the full year, and enumerating several other headwinds that had emerged, including ForEx changes, lower volumes in certain products, and customer segments and the like.

我之前提到今年的發展情況，包括公佈了 2025 年全年淨關稅影響的初步估計為 10 億歐元至 15 億歐元，並列舉了其他一些出現的不利因素，包括匯率變化、某些產品和客戶群體的銷量下降等等。

As we finished the second quarter and during the financial closing process, it became clear that our preliminary financial results, while generally in line with expectations in the market in terms of volumes and revenues, diverged from analyst consensus in terms of profitability and cash flow.

隨著第二季結束和財務結算過程的進行，我們逐漸意識到，雖然我們的初步財務業績在銷量和收入方面總體上符合市場預期，但在盈利能力和現金流方面卻與分析師的普遍預期存在分歧。

And as a result, we felt it was important given that we do not currently have guidance in place to update the investment community. We decided to sync the publication, therefore, of our quarterly consolidated shipment volumes with the disclosure of the preliminary results, which we released this morning to make things as simple as possible.

因此，鑑於我們目前還沒有相關的指導方針，我們認為有必要向投資界更新資訊。因此，我們決定將季度綜合出貨量的發布與今天早上發布的初步業績揭露同步進行，以盡可能簡化流程。

So now let's turn to the results themselves. So for the first half of 2025, the preliminary figures we've disclosed today are: net revenues of approximately EUR74.3 billion; adjusted operating income of approximately EUR540 million, AOI consistent with the company's definition excludes the impact of approximately EUR3.3 billion of net charges from our IFRS figures; a bottom line net loss of approximately EUR2.3 billion, inclusive of those unusual items. And on industrial free cash flow, a EUR3 billion outflow.

現在讓我們來看看結果本身。因此，我們今天公佈的 2025 年上半年初步數據顯示：淨收入約為 743 億歐元；調整後營業收入約為 5.4 億歐元（根據公司定義，調整後營業收入不包括 33 億歐元的淨費用對 IFRS 數據的影響）；淨虧損約為 23 億歐元（包括這些特殊項目）。工業自由現金流方面，出現 30 億歐元的流出。

Now let me run through some of the specifics on key items that impacted the first half in significant ways. First, if we turn to AOI, there were really kind of four things that shifted the AOI level below the kind of low single-digit H1 expectations I discussed back in February when we set our initial full year 2025 financial guidance. And of course, before that guidance was suspended in April due to the tariff-related uncertainties.

現在讓我詳細講解一下對上半季產生重大影響的一些關鍵因素。首先，就 AOI 而言，有四件事導致 AOI 水準低於我在 2 月制定 2025 年全年財務指引時所討論的個位數 H1 預期。當然，在此之前，由於與關稅相關的不確定性，該指南已於 4 月暫停發布。

So the first was lower-than-expected volumes, where we've noted in prior updates the sluggish European LCV market. And on the passenger car side, where we suffered from a lower production ramp-up of certain newly launched products.

首先是銷售低於預期，我們在先前的更新中已經提到歐洲輕型商用車市場疲軟。在乘用車方面，我們遇到了一些新推出產品的產量提升速度較慢的問題。

In North America, our fleet sales remained low relative to the market, dragging on our share even as the retail side showed some encouraging improvement. Shipments were also impacted in the first half due to some downtime that we took in the initial period of the tariff announcements, particularly in our products that are produced in Europe, in Canada, in Mexico until we had some clarity on the policy itself.

在北美，我們的車隊銷售額相對於市場而言仍然較低，即使零售方面出現了一些令人鼓舞的改善，也拖累了我們的市場份額。上半年的出貨量也受到了影響，因為在關稅公告發布初期，我們採取了一些停工措施，特別是對於我們在歐洲、加拿大和墨西哥生產的產品，直到我們對政策本身有了更清晰的了解。

The second impact was really higher industrial costs, including the impact of higher fixed asset absorption due to lower volumes, of course, and higher warranty costs.

第二個影響是工業成本大幅上升，當然包括由於銷售下降而導致的固定資產吸收增加，以及保固成本上升。

The third was foreign exchange with an impact of just under EUR1 billion year over year. That was primarily related to the Turkish lira, strengthening the euro against the US dollar and Brazilian real.

第三項因素是外匯波動，較去年同期影響略低於 10 億歐元。這主要與土耳其里拉有關，土耳其里拉的升值推高了歐元對美元和巴西雷亞爾的匯率。

And last was tariffs of approximately EUR330 million net impact that was felt in the first half, and that's really consistent with the disclosed estimate that I made of EUR1.15 billion in net tariff impact as we'll see more impact in the second half.

最後是關稅，對上半年的淨影響約為 3.3 億歐元，這與我先前揭露的 11.5 億歐元淨關稅影響的估計非常吻合，因為我們將在下半年看到更大的影響。

Next, let's move to the net total of approximately EUR3.3 billion of adjustments to AOI, and I'll provide you some detail on that figure. First, approximately EUR2 billion is related to management taking some decisive and tough decisions on product programs where we really couldn't see sufficient returns.

接下來，我們來看看 AOI 約 33 億歐元的調整總額，我將為您提供有關該數字的一些詳細資訊。首先，約有 20 億歐元與管理層對一些我們確實看不到足夠回報的產品項目做出的果斷而艱難的決定有關。

This included our hydrogen fuel cell EV efforts, as we announced to the market last week, which resulted in approximately EUR700 million charge of that EUR2 billion I mentioned, certain product cancellations and related supplier payments as well as restructuring charges mostly related to the European headcount reductions.

這包括我們上週向市場宣布的氫燃料電池電動車項目，該項目導致了我提到的 20 億歐元中的約 7 億歐元支出，以及某些產品取消和相關的供應商付款，以及主要與歐洲裁員相關的重組費用。

Second, about EUR700 million across two noncash items. The majority of this was related to impairments of certain Maserati vehicle platforms that really reflects the reality of the current sales pace that we see on those vehicles.

其次，兩項非現金項目總額約 7 億歐元。其中大部分與某些瑪莎拉蒂汽車平台的性能下降有關，這真實反映了我們目前在這些車輛上看到的銷售速度。

Third, there was a net expense of roughly EUR300 million associated with several items related to the change in US CAFE penalty rates going to zero with the passage of major US congressional legislation, the one big beautiful bill, including a write-down of the CAFE credits and a provision for purchase commitments netted against the release of the majority of our CAFE compliance cost provision.

第三，由於美國國會通過了一項重要的法案（一項龐大的法案），導緻美國 CAFE 罰款率降至零，因此產生了約 3 億歐元的淨支出，其中包括 CAFE 抵免額的減記以及採購承諾的準備金，該準備金抵消了我們大部分 CAFE 合規成本準備金的釋放。

Last, approximately EUR300 million relates to about two-thirds of an expansion of the Takata airbag recall campaign in Europe with the rest split between miscellaneous items. In total, about half of the approximately EUR3.3 billion of net charges relates to future period expected cash flows and the other half are all noncash in nature.

最後，約 3 億歐元與歐洲高田氣囊召回活動擴大規模有關，約佔三分之二，其餘部分則用於其他雜項。總計約 33 億歐元的淨支出中，約一半與未來期間的預期現金流有關，另一半均為非現金性質。

Turning to our industrial free cash flow. We had said in February that we gave our -- when we gave our first half outlook for '25 that we expected, positive flows only to come really in the second half of the year. Of course, that turns out to be the case.

接下來我們來看看工業自由現金流。我們在二月曾說過，當我們給出 2025 年上半年的展望時，我們預計積極的資金流動要到下半年才會真正出現。事實證明，情況確實如此。

The marginal AOI generation in the first half was insufficient to cover our CapEx and R&D spending as we continue to invest in the business. And so that was really the major contributor to the negative industrial free cash flow that we reported for the half.

上半年的邊際AOI收益不足以彌補我們的資本支出和研發支出，因為我們將繼續投資於這項業務。因此，這確實是導致我們上半年報告的工業自由現金流為負的主要原因。

Lastly, a quick comment on inventories. Total vehicle inventories at the end of the first half of 2025 were unchanged, roughly in line with the prior six months where we ended the year last year. The OEM inventories figure were up about 60,000 units, while the dealer inventories were down about 60,000 units. So overall, total inventories globally roughly in line.

最後，簡單談談庫存狀況。2025 年上半年末的車輛總庫存量保持不變，與去年年底的前六個月大致相同。OEM庫存量增加了約6萬輛，而經銷商庫存量減少了約6萬輛。因此，整體而言，全球總庫存大致符合預期。

Really, when I look at the first half results, of course, they are far below our potential, even taking into account the strong industry headwinds that characterized the first half of the year. And this is because we still have really a lot of work to do in terms of progressing our commercial recovery.

說實話，當我查看上半年的業績時，當然，即使考慮到上半年行業面臨的強勁逆風，這些業績也遠低於我們的預期。這是因為我們在推動商業復甦方面還有很多工作要做。

At the same time, directionally, there was sequential improvement from the second half of 2024. If I look at the half, specifically our volumes and revenues increased in the first half versus where we ran second half last year, and our AOI margin improved and cash flow outflows, while there were still outflows, were cut roughly in half. So we have seen progress -- sequential progress -- but certainly, the management team is not happy with where we're at, and we're going to continue to progress in the second half.

同時，從方向來看，從 2024 年下半年開始，情況有所改善。如果我看一下上半年，具體來說，我們的銷量和收入在上半年都比去年下半年有所增長，我們的營業利潤率有所提高，現金流出雖然仍然存在，但減少了大約一半。所以我們已經看到了進步——穩步的進步——但管理團隊當然對我們目前的狀況並不滿意，我們將在下半年繼續取得進步。

Progress on product was a big part of the story in the first half. We did launch a lot of products late in 2024 and early 2025, including five new B and C segment entries in Europe. And those closed temporary product gaps in our portfolio that were extremely important to execute as well as the very well-received refresh of our Ram, medium, and heavy-duty pickups. And of course, we have more to come in the second half.

上半年，產品研發進度是故事的重要部分。我們在 2024 年底和 2025 年初推出了許多產品，包括在歐洲推出的五款新的 B 級和 C 級產品。此外，我們還填補了產品組合中暫時的產品空白，這對於執行這些空白至關重要；同時，我們對 Ram、中型和重型皮卡進行了非常受歡迎的更新。當然，下半年還有更多精彩內容。

We expect continuation of the product wave, including significant remaining ramp-up of the new B segment cars, and the approaching launches of three all-new STLA Medium nameplates in Europe as well as the return of the Jeep Cherokee to North America to help drive improvement in the second half results this year.

我們預計產品浪潮將持續，包括新款 B 級車的大量剩餘產能提升，以及即將在歐洲推出的三款全新 STLA 中型車，還有 Jeep Cherokee 重返北美市場，這些都將有助於推動今年下半年業績的改善。

We plan to reestablish current period financial guidance that encapsulates that improvement on the H1 2025 update call that will be held on July 29, which will be hosted by our new CEO, Antonio Filosa, and of course, myself.

我們計劃在 7 月 29 日舉行的 2025 年上半年業績更新電話會議上重新制定體現此改進的當前期間財務指導方針。這次電話會議將由我們的新任執行長 Antonio Filosa 和我本人主持。

And really that concludes my prepared remarks. So operator, please open the line for any questions that we have.

我的發言稿就到此結束了。接線員，請接通電話，我們有任何問題都可以諮詢。

(Operator Instructions) Thomas Besson, Kepler Cheuvreux.

（操作說明）托馬斯·貝松，開普勒·舍夫勒。

I'll start with a question about your continued share losses, both in the US and Europe. I think the timing of your product launches were suggesting that your market share was going to stabilize in Europe first than in the US. But at this stage we are still seeing no real share gains in Europe.

我先問一個關於貴公司在美國和歐洲持續虧損的問題。我認為你們的產品上市時間表明，你們的市場份額會先在歐洲穩定下來，而不是在美國。但現階段我們仍未看到在歐洲獲得真正的市佔率成長。

So could you talk about that, explain how much of the ramp-up for the Smart platform has been an issue and whether eventually you'll have to take some industrial action as you announce capacity expansion in Morocco, while your volumes continue to decline?

那麼，您能否談談這個問題，解釋一下Smart平台的產能提昇在多大程度上遇到了問題，以及在您宣布摩洛哥產能擴張的同時，銷量卻持續下降的情況下，最終您是否不得不採取一些工業行動？

Yes. Thomas, good question. Really, when I look at our progress in Europe, our share is up in the first half if you compare it to where we ran second half last year. We're up about 130 basis points in that comparison. That, of course, is related to the fact that we've launched a lot of exciting new products.

是的。湯瑪斯，問得好。說實話，從我們在歐洲的進展來看，如果和去年下半年的表現相比，我們上半年的市佔率有所上升。我們在這方面領先約 130 個基點。當然，這與我們推出了許多令人興奮的新產品有關。

But the ramp-up of those products, to your point, has been relatively slower than we expected. And of course, we really haven't gone off the ground yet with what I consider to be one of the most exciting of our B segment products, the Fiat Grande Panda, which we'll have kind of a big launch event in September for that vehicle. And I'm excited to see the reaction of the public when they really get a chance to drive it and experience the car.

但正如您所說，這些產品的產能提升速度比我們預期的要慢。當然，我們還沒有真正推出我認為最令人興奮的 B 級產品之一——菲亞特 Grande Panda，我們將在 9 月為這款車舉辦一場盛大的發布會。我很期待看到大眾真正有機會駕駛和體驗這輛車時的反應。

Of course, the other headwind that I mentioned in my script was LCVs. If you look at the LCV market in Europe, it's down about 13% year to date. And that has a unique impact on us because we're about 30% of that market. We have a very strong share there. It also is a very big profit contributor for us and so that, of course, has had an impact on us.

當然，我在腳本中提到的另一個不利因素是輕型商用車。如果你看一下歐洲的輕型商用車市場，今年迄今為止，該市場下滑了約 13%。這對我們產生了獨特的影響，因為我們佔據了該市場約 30% 的份額。我們在那裡擁有非常強大的市場份額。它也為我們帶來了非常可觀的利潤，因此，這當然對我們產生了影響。

My own view, and I think what we hear from clients is that there's a lot of uncertainty in the environment today, both economic uncertainty and a lot of regulatory uncertainty. And in the face of that, a lot of our commercial customers are hanging on to their fleets for longer and are kind of taking a wait-and-see approach before they renew those vehicles.

我個人的看法，以及我們從客戶那裡聽到的，是當今環境存在著許多不確定性，包括經濟不確定性和監管的不確定性。面對這種情況，我們的許多商業客戶都在延長車隊的使用期限，並採取觀望態度，然後再決定是否續訂這些車輛。

Obviously, we're having discussions with them and trying to come up with programs that can help them get over the hump on that. But that has had an impact on us in Europe as well. So I don't know if that covers all your question, but --

顯然，我們正在與他們進行討論，並努力製定一些方案來幫助他們克服這一難關。但這也對我們歐洲人產生了影響。我不知道這是否解答了您的所有問題，但是--

Can I ask a follow-up on a more positive note? I think you managed to report very strong gains both in Middle East, Africa, and in LatAm that have been strong contributors to AOI last year. Should we expect that you get some positive traction in terms of operating leverage and therefore, higher margins in these regions in H1? Or is it not necessarily the case?

我可以問一個更積極的後續問題嗎？我認為你們成功地報告了在中東、非洲和拉丁美洲的強勁成長，這些地區去年對AOI做出了重大貢獻。我們是否可以預期，上半年這些地區的經營槓桿作用會得到一些正面的提升，從而帶來更高的利潤率？或情況未必如此？

Thanks for noting that, Thomas. And I'll save the kind of regional detail for the call on the 29th. But you're right, we continue to have a very strong business in the Middle East. We have a very good leadership team there. And there's, as you know, a very young and growing level of affluency in that part of the world, a lot of population growth and our brands have been very well received.

謝謝你指出這一點，托馬斯。至於地區方面的細節，我會在29號的電話會議上再談。但你說得對，我們在中東的業務依然非常強勁。我們那裡有一支非常優秀的領導團隊。如您所知，世界上的那個地區年輕一代的富裕程度正在不斷提高，人口增長迅速，我們的品牌也受到了很好的歡迎。

I think we're very well positioned there. So it is an exciting part of our business for sure. But thanks for the question, Thomas.

我認為我們在那裡佔據了非常有利的地位。所以這無疑是我們業務中令人興奮的一部分。不過，謝謝你的提問，托馬斯。

Philippe Houchois, Jefferies.

Philippe Houchois，傑富瑞集團。

Two questions, if I can. The first one, can you comment on the gap between operating cash flow and free cash flow? Because the implied CapEx is very, very low. So is it just a very kind of cash saving first half spend? Or is there some other factors that might explain it?

如果可以的話，我想問兩個問題。首先，您能否談談經營現金流和自由現金流之間的差距？因為隱含的資本支出非常非常低。所以這只是一種非常節省現金的前半年支出方式嗎？或者有其他因素可以解釋這種情況嗎？

I think we're comparing a little bit apples and oranges there because the perimeter is very different. So when you look at the negative EUR2.3 billion from cash flows from operating activities, right, you're looking at a perimeter there that includes the financial services business.

我認為我們在這裡有點拿蘋果和橘子做比較，因為它們的周長差異很大。所以，當你看到經營活動現金流為負 23 億歐元時，你看到的範圍就包含了金融服務業務。

And we had increase in use of capital within our Financial Services business, I think, of over EUR4 billion. And really, we're growing that business pretty rapidly as we've discussed, particularly in North America, where we bought a subprime lending activity and have been building out the full portfolio of prime and leasing and wholesale floor plan and the like. And so that ramp-up is actually ahead of schedule and so that has taken some level of capital.

我認為，我們在金融服務業務的資本使用量增加了超過 40 億歐元。正如我們之前討論過的，我們的業務確實發展得非常迅速，尤其是在北美，我們收購了次級貸款業務，並一直在建立完整的優質貸款、租賃、批發庫存融資等投資組合。因此，產能提升其實提前於規劃，這也需要一定的資金投入。

Then when you look at the number below that on the press release, the industrial free cash flow, that is just the industrial perimeter, right? And that's where, of course, when we look at the EUR0.5 billion of AOI, that clearly was not enough to cover our investing activities when we look at our levels of R&D and CapEx, and that's how we get to kind of an industrial negative free cash flow. So I hope that answers your question, but happy if you have a follow-up, Philippe.

然後，當你查看新聞稿中下面的數字，即工業自由現金流時，那隻是工業領域的自由現金流，對吧？當然，當我們查看 0.5 億歐元的 AOI 時，很明顯，這不足以涵蓋我們的投資活動，因為我們的研發和資本支出水準很高，這就是為什麼我們會出現工業領域的負自由現金流。希望這能解答你的疑問，如果你還有其他問題，歡迎隨時提問，菲利普。

Okay. Actually, I have a follow-up. Actually, before I get to my follow-up, I guess if I had -- I have a long wish list of what I wish to hear from Stellantis, you can imagine. And one of which -- I'm sure. One thing I think it's high time that you start splitting industrial cash flow and financing cash flow.

好的。實際上，我還有一個後續問題。實際上，在我進行後續討論之前，我想說的是——你可以想像，我有很多想從Stellantis那裡聽到的內容。其中之一——我確信。我認為現在是時候將工業現金流和融資現金流分開了。

For a group the size of Stellantis, it doesn't make sense to combine the two. I think it works with Ferrari, it works for Porsche, but this is no longer adequate in my view, for the disclosure of Stellantis.

對於像斯特蘭蒂斯這樣規模的集團來說，將兩者合併是沒有意義的。我認為這種方法對法拉利有效，對保時捷也有效，但就揭露 Stellantis 的資訊而言，在我看來已經不夠了。

And -- but my second question would be, you said a few times that you see the improvement in retail, you don't see the fleet. So what are you doing to regain market share in fleets? I'm thinking specifically on the Ram. You've lost a lot of share. Ram used to be a big pickup for commercial buyers and fleets.

但我的第二個問題是，您曾多次表示您看到了零售業的改善，但您沒有看到車隊的改善。那麼，你們正在採取哪些措施來重新奪回車隊市佔率？我指的是Ram皮卡。你們的市佔率損失慘重。Ram 曾經是商業買家和車隊的大型皮卡。

What are you doing to regain that share?

你正在採取哪些措施來重新奪回那部分市佔率？

(technical difficulty) Have I lost connection here?

（技術故障）我的網路連線是不是斷開了？

So I don't know if you heard all that. But we do provide more detail on your first comment on the flows related to the financial services business in the 6-K. And so maybe offline, we can get together and walk through some of that for you.

我不知道你有沒有聽到所有這些話。但是，我們在 6-K 文件中提供了關於您第一個評論中與金融服務業務相關的資金流動的更多細節。所以或許我們可以線下見面，一起為你詳細解說這些問題。

But to your point, I mean, you make a good point. At some point, we continue to monitor kind of the size of our financial services activity and try to provide more and more transparency there for the investment community. So it's something that we are thinking about for sure to your point, Philippe.

但你說的很有道理。在某種程度上，我們會持續關注金融服務活動的規模，並努力為投資界提供越來越高的透明度。所以，正如你所說，菲利普，這確實是我們正在考慮的問題。

But your second question was on Ram, which is a very important part of our business, and you asked what are we doing there? And the first most important thing we did was to bring Tim Kuniskis back to head Ram. But what's more important is all the great ideas that he's come up with.

但你的第二個問題是關於 Ram 的，這是我們業務中非常重要的一部分，你問我們在那裡做什麼？我們做的第一件最重要的事情就是請回蒂姆·庫尼斯基斯擔任公羊隊主教練。但更重要的是他提出的所有絕妙想法。

The first and most important is that we have -- are reintroducing the V8 into the Ram pickup truck. We've seen marketing data that shows that as much as 40% of the market won't consider you unless you have a -- you can imagine it's pretty important that we get back into that part of the market.

首先也是最重要的是，我們將把 V8 引擎重新引入 Ram 皮卡。我們看到市場數據顯示，高達 40% 的市場不會考慮你，除非你擁有——你可以想像，重新打入這部分市場對我們來說非常重要。

In addition, as I've mentioned, when we ran out the old DS truck, we had positioned the new truck, which we refer to as the DT platform at the upper end to not play in that lower end of the segment because we had the DS truck. And so we now are coming back with that truck in that price tier that we've announced called the Express. And that's going to allow us to address that lower end of the market that we've been absent from so that's a big key.

此外，正如我之前提到的，當我們淘汰了舊的DS卡車後，我們將新卡車（我們稱之為DT平台）定位在高端市場，以免涉足低端市場，因為我們已經有了DS卡車。所以現在，我們將以我們之前宣布的價格檔次推出這款名為 Express 的卡車。這將使我們能夠開拓我們一直缺席的低端市場，這是一個關鍵。

We also are doing some things to improve the production numbers on the Ram truck so that we can get back into the fleet piece that has really been missing for us. On the excitement side, you may have seen we announced we've gotten the Ram truck back into NASCAR.

我們也在採取一些措施來提高 Ram 卡車的產量，以便重新回到我們一直缺少的車隊市場。令人興奮的是，您可能已經看到我們宣布 Ram 卡車重返 NASCAR 賽場。

So there's a lot (technical difficulty) -- and so we are expecting significantly better results in the second half out of the Ram brand, which is so important to us from a customer standpoint, from a profitability standpoint and the like. So it's a great question, Philippe.

因此，技術上存在著許多困難——因此我們預計 Ram 品牌在下半年會有顯著更好的業績，這對我們來說非常重要，無論是從客戶角度、獲利能力角度等等。菲利普，你問得好。

Horst Schneider, Bank of America.

霍斯特·施耐德，美國銀行。

Doug, I'm not sure if you mentioned that in the beginning, but if yes, maybe you can repeat that. Can you give any indication what was the margin Europe (technical difficulty) -- just continuation of the H2 '24 trend. So North America, more significantly loss-making, but Europe remained positive. Can you confirm that?

道格，我不確定你一開始有沒有提到這一點，但如果你提到的話，也許你可以再說一次。能否透露一下歐洲的利潤率是多少（技術難題）——只是延續了2024年下半年的趨勢。北美虧損更為嚴重，但歐洲仍保持獲利。能確認一下嗎？

Well, Horst, I'd really prefer to keep the details of the region by region for the call on the 29th. That way, we can kind of lay it all out for you and give you clarity on the numbers there rather than trying to quote individual numbers without detail and explanation. But we'll cover all that on the 29th for you, rest assured. And also, of course, you'll get the benefit of the commentary from our CEO as well.

霍斯特，​​我還是希望把各地區的具體情況留到 29 號的電話會議再討論。這樣，我們就可以把所有情況都擺在你面前，讓你清楚地了解這些數字，而不是在沒有細節和解釋的情況下引用個別數字。但請放心，我們會在29號為您詳細報道所有這些內容。當然，您還能聽到我們執行長的評論。

Then I want to follow up with another one. And that is -- I mean, we just had last week kind of warning from Renault, which was saying basically that there's increased competitive pressure in Europe. That just happened in June. So maybe you can comment on that specifically in Europe, if you see something like that, too? And if you can share any further detail on that.

然後我想再跟進一下。我的意思是，就在上週，雷諾方面發出警告，基本上是說歐洲的競爭壓力正在增加。這件事就發生在六月。所以，如果你在歐洲也看到類似的情況，或許可以具體談談你的看法？如果您能提供更多細節就更好了。

Yes. I mean Europe is a very competitive environment. I won't disagree with our counterparts at Renault. I think we're very fortunate in that we have some fantastic new products, right, that are coming out. But for us, there's a number of headwinds that we are combating in Europe.

是的。我的意思是，歐洲是一個競爭非常激烈的環境。我不會反對雷諾方面的觀點。我認為我們非常幸運，因為我們有一些非常棒的新產品即將上市。但對我們來說，我們在歐洲面臨許多不利因素。

I talked a little bit about the sluggish LCV market. Of course, the race to be compliant on the CO2 side with increased BEV penetration, we increased our BEV penetration in Europe in the first half to 13% and our BEVs have been very well received. Our new B segment BEVs are based on very affordable LP technology. They have really nice ranges. I think the pricing is very attractive, and we make money on them.

我稍微談到了低迷的輕型商用車市場。當然，在提高純電動車滲透率以達到二氧化碳排放合規要求方面，我們上半年在歐洲的純電動車滲透率提高了 13%，而且我們的純電動車受到了很好的歡迎。我們新款B級純電動車採用價格非常實惠的LP技術。他們的商品種類非常齊全。我認為這個價格非常有吸引力，而且我們從中也能賺錢。

But it is a profitability headwind, of course, because we don't make as much money on a BEV in most cases as we do on the ICE counterparts. But it's a tough market as everybody tries to get up that scale to the levels that are going to be required for compliance.

當然，這對獲利能力來說是一個不利因素，因為在大多數情況下，我們從純電動車上賺的錢不如從燃油車上賺的錢多。但這是一個競爭激烈的市場，因為每個人都試圖將規模擴大到合規所需的水平。

Now luckily, because of the change in regulations, we all have three years to be compliant, right? So there shouldn't be a panic at the end of the year, which we had all kind of feared. But yes, Europe is a tough environment.

幸運的是，由於法規的改變，我們都有三年的時間來遵守規定，對吧？所以年底應該不會出現我們之前都有些擔心的恐慌。但沒錯，歐洲的環境確實很艱難。

I give our credit -- our team and the new products a lot of credit for being able to increase our market share sequentially second half '24 to '25 by 130 basis points despite a 13% decline in the area where we have basically one of our strongest market shares at 30% in LCV.

我要高度讚揚我們的團隊和新產品，正是它們讓我們能夠在 2024 年下半年到 2025 年下半年之間將市場份額環比提高 130 個基點，儘管我們在輕型商用車 (LCV) 領域擁有 30% 的市場份額，而該領域卻下降了 13%。

So I think it's -- given the environment, as you said, which is pretty tough, I think it's quite a good accomplishment for the team. And certainly not where we want to be. We want to continue to strive for more. But yes, there are a lot of headwinds in Europe. You are correct on that.

所以我覺得——正如你所說，考慮到環境相當艱難，我認為這對團隊來說是一項相當不錯的成就。當然，這絕對不是我們想去的地方。我們希望繼續努力追求更高的目標。但沒錯，歐洲確實面臨許多不利因素。你說得對。

Then maybe the last one since my first question, you could answer that on tariffs, when you talk about the EUR300 million headwind in Q1, that was already kind of peak number? Or it's just a partial impact in tariffs peak is basically in Q3 and then mitigation effects basically coming to force, which would lower the pain again towards the end of the year.

那麼，或許可以回答我第一個問題之後的最後一個問題，關於關稅，您提到第一季3億歐元的逆風，那已經是某種意義上的高峰了嗎？或者這只是部分影響，關稅高峰基本上出現在第三季度，然後緩解措施基本上開始生效，這將在年底再次減輕痛苦。

No. I mean the tariffs only came in partway through the half. So it certainly is not representative of what we expect for the second half. Remember that I kind of guided to EUR1 billion to EUR1.5 billion in total. So EUR330 million in the first half.

不。我的意思是，關稅只是在半年中途才開始實施。所以這當然不能代表我們對下半季的期待。請記住，我當時給出的總體目標是 10 億歐元到 15 億歐元。所以上半年收入為3.3億歐元。

We'll see significantly more in the second half, unless things change. And frankly, the tariff front seems to evolve on a daily and weekly basis, right, because the administration is still very much engaged with many countries around the world in negotiating deals. And so we'll have to see how that evolves. But I think given the current outlook, I would expect to see that figure probably double in the second half or more.

除非情況發生變化，否則下半年我們將看到更多這樣的情況。坦白說，關稅方面似乎每天每週都在變化，對吧？因為美國政府仍在與世界許多國家積極進行談判，以達成協議。所以，我們得看看事態會如何發展。但我認為，根據目前的情況來看，我預計下半年甚至更長時間內，這個數字可能會翻倍。

Okay. And that number was then before mitigation actions on price, for example?

好的。而這個數字是在採取價格方面的緩解措施之前的數據嗎？

Yes, and that's a great point because I believe tariffs are, we all know, inherently inflationary. And a lot of us in the industry, I think, have been reluctant to raise price because the tariff policy has been changing so much. I think people have been slow to react because we're all kind of waiting to see how it all evolves.

是的，這一點非常重要，因為我們都知道，關稅本質上會導致通貨膨脹。我認為，業內很多人一直不願漲價，因為關稅政策變化太大了。我認為人們反應遲緩是因為大家都觀望事態如何發展。

And of course, we -- most of the OEMs in North America anyway, typically will run 60 to 90 days of inventory that wasn't subject to tariffs that you could kind of continue to sell down. I think we're coming to the end of that period.

當然，我們——至少北美的大多數 OEM 廠商——通常會有 60 到 90 天的庫存，這些庫存不受關稅影響，可以繼續銷售。我認為我們即將結束那個時期。

I think in the second half you will see more reaction from various OEMs. And I think there will be some mitigation, but we'll have to see how it evolves.

我認為下半年你會看到各汽車廠商做出更多反應。我認為會有一些緩解措施，但我們還得看看情況會如何發展。

And ladies and gentlemen, we have time for one last question today. José Asumendi, JPMorgan.

女士們、先生們，今天我們還有最後一個問題。José Asumendi，摩根大通。

One final one. It will be great if you please comment on how you think about the liquidity of the business. Do you think about it on a cash basis, net cash basis, your refinancing needs. If you can just comment so we can get some comfort there from the equity and credit perspective.

最後一個。如果您能就公司流動性問題發表一下看法，那就太好了。您是否考慮過以現金為基礎、以淨現金為基礎的再融資需求？如果您能提供一些意見，以便我們從股權和信貸的角度獲得一些安慰，那就太好了。

And if possible, I think the last time we left it in terms of cash generation, second half positive, but not offsetting the cash burns in the first half. Is this still how we're thinking about it? Or have we seen maybe some additional headwinds, which could maybe mitigate this cash generation in the second half?

如果可能的話，我認為上次我們預測下半年現金流為正，但不足以抵消上半年的現金消耗。我們現在還是這樣想的嗎？或者我們看到了一些額外的阻力，這些阻力可能會削弱下半年的現金流？

Yes. Jose, always nice to hear from you, and I appreciate you asking about liquidity and cash and all the things that are near and dear to ex- Treasurer's heart. So let me try and answer your question.

是的。Jose，很高興收到你的來信，感謝你詢問流動性、現金以及所有前財務主管非常關心的事情。讓我來試著回答你的問題。

Look, the way we think about having sufficient liquidity for the business, I think we've been pretty clear about and consistent in that we think we really want to have liquidity that is roughly 25% to 30% of trailing 12-month revenues. And despite some cash burn here in the first half, we will remain -- when you see the full financials, you'll see that we've remained in that range. And so I feel like we have sufficient liquidity.

關於我們如何看待企業擁有充足的流動性，我認為我們已經非常明確且一致地表明，我們希望流動資金達到過去 12 個月收入的 25% 到 30% 左右。儘管上半年我們有一些現金消耗，但我們將保持——當你看到完整的財務報表時，你會發現我們一直保持在那個範圍內。所以我覺得我們有足夠的流動資金。

As you, I'm sure, probably know, Jose, we went in the first half and issued debt both in the US market and in the European market to replace those maturities that are going to expire this year and in fact, issued a bit more than what will expire this year because the markets were pretty constructive.

我相信你大概也知道，何塞，我們在上半年在美國市場和歐洲市場發行了債券，以替換今年即將到期的債券，事實上，我們發行的債券數量比今年即將到期的債券數量還要多一些，因為市場反應相當積極。

So I feel from a liquidity standpoint, we're still in very good shape. We have a very strong balance sheet, and we've worked hard to build up a fortress balance sheet because we know that this business can be volatile, and there will be periods like we're experiencing right now when cash is in the outflow position, and we need to continue to invest in the business. So I think we're in pretty good shape on that front.

所以我覺得從流動角度來看，我們的狀況還是非常好。我們擁有非常穩健的資產負債表，我們努力打造了堅實的資產負債表，因為我們知道這個行業可能會波動，而且會像我們現在經歷的那樣，出現現金流出的情況，我們需要繼續投資於業務。所以我覺得我們在這方面情況相當不錯。

As you mentioned, though, of course, we need to turn the corner and start generating positive industrial free cash flow. And I will outline our expectations for that in the call on the 29th, where we plan to reestablish guidance. So I don't want to preempt all that. But we'll get into that on the 29th call for sure, Jose.

正如您所提到的，我們當然需要扭轉局面，開始產生正的工業自由現金流。我將在 29 日的電話會議上概述我們對此的預期，屆時我們計劃重新制定指導方針。所以我不想提前透露所有這些。但我們肯定會在29號的電話會議上討論這個問題，何塞。

And with this, I'd like to hand the call back over to Ed for any additional or closing remarks. Over to you, sir.

最後，我想把電話交還給艾德，讓他補充或作總結發言。接下來就交給您了，先生。

So I'd just like to say thank you to everyone for participating in the call today. We look forward to updating you on July 29 in more detail with -- on both the H1 results and importantly, how we see opportunities to improve the second half as well as reestablishing guidance for you. So look forward to speaking with you then. And of course, I'll be joined by Antonio Filosa during that call, and I'm sure we'll all look forward to his commentary as well. So thank you.

所以，我只想對今天參加電話會議的各位表示感謝。我們期待在 7 月 29 日向您提供更詳細的信息，包括上半年業績，更重要的是，我們將探討如何改善下半年的業績，並重新制定業績指引。期待屆時與您交談。當然，屆時安東尼奧·菲洛薩也會加入我的通話，我相信我們都會期待他的評論。所以，謝謝你。

Thank you. This concludes today's conference call. Thank you for your participation. You may now disconnect.

謝謝。今天的電話會議到此結束。感謝您的參與。您現在可以斷開連線了。