Pennantpark Investment Corp (PNNT) 2025 Q1 法說會逐字稿

Good afternoon, and welcome to the PennantPark Investment Corporation's first fiscal quarter 2025 earnings conference call. Today's conference is being recorded.

下午好，歡迎參加 PennantPark Investment Corporation 2025 財年第一季財報電話會議。今天的會議正在錄製。

(Operator Instructions) It is now my pleasure to turn the call over to Mr. Art Penn, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of PennantPark Investment Corporation. Mr. Penn, you may begin your conference.

（操作員指示）現在我很高興將電話轉給 PennantPark 投資公司董事長兼執行長 Art Penn 先生。佩恩先生，您可以開始您的會議了。

Good afternoon, everyone. I'd like to welcome you to PennantPark Investment Corporation's first fiscal quarter 2025 earnings conference call. I'm joined today by Rick Allorto, our CFO; and Rick, please start off by disclosing some general conference call information and included discussion about forward-looking statements.

大家下午好。歡迎您參加 PennantPark Investment Corporation 2025 財年第一季財報電話會議。今天和我一起參加的是我們的財務長 Rick Allorto；里克，請先揭露一些一般電話會議資訊以及關於前瞻性陳述的討論。

Thank you, Art. I'd like to remind everyone that today's call is being recorded. Please note that this call is the property of PennantPark Investment Corporation and that any unauthorized broadcast of this call in any form is strictly prohibited. An audio replay of the call will be available on our website. I'd also like to call your attention to the customary Safe Harbor disclosure in our press release regarding forward-looking information.

謝謝你，阿特。我想提醒大家，今天的通話正在錄音。請注意，本次通話歸 PennantPark Investment Corporation 所有，嚴禁以任何形式未經授權播放本次通話。此次通話的音訊回放將在我們的網站上提供。我還想提請您注意我們新聞稿中有關前瞻性資訊的常規安全港披露。

Today's conference call may also include forward-looking statements and projections, and we ask that you refer to our most recent filings with the SEC for important factors that could cause actual results to differ materially from these projections. We do not undertake to update our forward-looking statements unless required by law. To obtain copies of our latest SEC filings, please visit our website at pennantpark.com or call us at 212-905-1000.

今天的電話會議可能還包括前瞻性陳述和預測，我們請您參考我們最近向美國證券交易委員會提交的文件，以了解可能導致實際結果與這些預測有重大差異的重要因素。除非法律要求，我們不承諾更新我們的前瞻性陳述。如需我們最新的 SEC 文件的副本，請造訪我們的網站 pennantpark.com 或致電我們：212-905-1000。

At this time, I'd like to turn the call back to our Chairman and Chief Executive Officer, Art Penn.

現在，我想把電話轉回給我們的董事長兼執行長阿特‧佩恩 (Art Penn)。

Thanks, Rick. We're going to spend a few minutes and comment on the current market environment for private middle market credit, how we fared in the quarter ended December 31, and how the portfolio is positioned for upcoming quarters, our dividend coverage and spillover income balance, a detailed review of the financials, then open it up for Q&A.

謝謝，里克。我們將花幾分鐘時間評論私人中端市場信貸的當前市場環境、我們在截至 12 月 31 日的季度的表現、投資組合在未來幾季的定位、我們的股息覆蓋率和溢出收入平衡、以及財務狀況的詳細審查，然後開放問答環節。

For the quarter ended December 31, our GAAP and core net investment income was $0.20 per share, which is $0.04 below our quarterly dividend. PNNT has $65 million or $0.99 per share of undistributed spillover income. In order to continue to comply with the tax rules, we are required to distribute the spillover income over time. We believe PNNT can generate core NII of $0.21 to $0.22 per share. However, if core NII remained at the current level of $0.20 per share, it would take over 24 quarters or six years to fully distribute the spillover income.

截至 12 月 31 日的季度，我們的 GAAP 和核心淨投資收益為每股 0.20 美元，比我們的季度股息低 0.04 美元。PNNT 擁有 6500 萬美元或每股 0.99 美元的未分配溢出收入。為了繼續遵守稅收規則，我們需要隨著時間的推移分配溢出收入。我們相信 PNNT 每股可產生 0.21 美元至 0.22 美元的核心 NII。然而，如果核心NII保持在每股0.20美元的當前水平，則需要24個季度或六年的時間才能完全分配溢出收入。

GAAP and adjusted NAV increased to 0.1% to $7.57 per share from $7.56. As of December 31, our portfolio totaled $1.3 billion. And during the quarter, we continue to originate attractive investment opportunities and invested $296 million in 12 new and 61 existing portfolio companies at a weighted average yield of 10.6%. We continue to see an attractive vintage in the core middle market. For investments in new portfolio companies, the weighted average debt-to-EBITDA was 4 times, the weighted average interest coverage was 2.2 times, and the weighted average loan to value was 62%.

GAAP 和調整後淨值從每股 7.56 美元上漲 0.1% 至 7.57 美元。截至 12 月 31 日，我們的投資組合總額為 13 億美元。在本季度，我們繼續創造有吸引力的投資機會，向 12 家新投資組合公司和 61 家現有投資組合公司投資 2.96 億美元，加權平均收益率為 10.6%。我們繼續看到核心中端市場中具有吸引力的新年份葡萄酒。對於新投資組合公司的投資，加權平均債務與 EBITDA 比率為 4 倍，加權平均利息覆蓋率為 2.2 倍，加權平均貸款價值比為 62%。

As of December 31, the portfolio's weighted average leverage ratio through our debt security was 4.9 times, and the portfolio's weighted average interest coverage was 1.9 times. These attractive credit statistics are a testament to our selectivity, conservative orientation, and our focus on the core middle market. In the core middle market, the market yield on first lien term loans appears to have stabilized in the SOFR plus 500 to 550 range.

截至 12 月 31 日，該投資組合透過我們的債務證券的加權平均槓桿率為 4.9 倍，投資組合的加權平均利息覆蓋率為 1.9 倍。這些有吸引力的信用統計數據證明了我們的選擇性、保守性以及我們對核心中端市場的關注。在核心中端市場，第一留置權定期貸款的市場收益率似乎已穩定在 SOFR 加上 500 至 550 的範圍內。

As the credit statistics just highlighted indicate, we continue to believe that the current vintage of core middle market loans is excellent, and the core middle market leverage is lower, spreads are higher, and covenants are tighter than the upper middle market. And we are still getting meaningful covenant protections.

正如剛剛強調的信用統計數據所表明的那樣，我們仍然認為當前核心中端市場貸款的狀況非常好，而且核心中端市場的槓桿率較低、利差較高，而且契約比中高端市場更嚴格。我們仍然得到有意義的契約保護。

Our JV portfolio continues to grow and be a significant contributor to our NII. At December 31, the JV portfolio grew to $1.3 billion. And during the quarter, the JV invested to $354 million, including $286 million of purchases from PNNT. Over the last 12 months, PNNT earned an 18.4% return on invested capital in the JV.

我們的合資企業組合持續成長，並成為我們國家資訊基礎投資的重要貢獻者。截至 12 月 31 日，合資投資組合成長至 13 億美元。本季度，該合資公司投資額達 3.54 億美元，其中包括從 PNNT 採購 2.86 億美元。在過去的 12 個月中，PNNT 在合資企業中獲得了 18.4% 的投資報酬率。

The JV has the capacity to increase its portfolio to $1.6 billion, and we expect that with the continued growth in this portfolio, the JV investment will enhance PNNT's earnings momentum in future quarters. The credit quality of our investment portfolio remains strong. We had two nonaccruals as of December 31, which represented 4.3% of the portfolio cost and 1.5% of market value.

該合資公司有能力將其投資組合增加至 16 億美元，我們預計，隨著該投資組合的持續成長，合資公司投資將在未來幾季增強 PNNT 的獲利勢頭。我們的投資組合的信用品質依然強勁。截至 12 月 31 日，我們有兩項未計項目，佔投資組合成本的 4.3% 和市場價值的 1.5%。

Now let me turn to the current market environment. We are well positioned as a lender, focused on capital preservation in the United States. We continue to believe that our focus on the core middle market provides the company with attractive investment opportunities where we provide important strategic capital to our borrowers. We have a long-term track record of generating value by successfully financing growing middle market companies in five key sectors. These are sectors where we have substantial domain expertise, know the right questions to ask, and have an excellent track record. They are business services, consumer, government services and defense, healthcare, and software technology.

現在我來談談目前的市場環境。作為一家貸款機構，我們有良好的定位，專注於美國的資本保全。我們始終相信，我們對核心中端市場的關注為公司提供了一個有吸引力的投資機會，我們為借款人提供了重要的策略資本。我們擁有長期的成功經驗，透過為五個關鍵領域的成長型中型市場公司提供融資來創造價值。在這些領域，我們擁有豐富的領域專業知識、知道要提出的正確問題，並且擁有出色的業績記錄。它們是商業服務、消費者、政府服務和國防、醫療保健和軟體技術。

These sectors have been recession resilient and tend to generate strong free cash flow. And the core middle market, companies [with $10 million to $50 million] of EBITDA is below the threshold and does not compete with a broadly syndicated loan or high-yield markets, unlike our peers in the upper middle market.

這些行業具有較強的抵禦經濟衰退的能力，並且往往會產生強勁的自由現金流。而在核心中端市場中，EBITDA（息稅折舊攤提前利潤）為 1,000 萬至 5,000 萬美元的公司低於門檻，且不會與廣泛銀團貸款或高收益市場競爭，這與我們在中高端市場的同行不同。

In the core middle market, because we are an important strategic lending partner, the process and package of terms we receive is attractive. We have many weeks to do our diligence with care. We thoughtfully structure transactions with sensible credit stats, meaningful covenants, substantial equity cushions to protect our capital, attractive spreads, and equity coinvestments.

在核心中端市場，由於我們是重要的策略貸款合作夥伴，因此我們所獲得的流程和條款組合具有吸引力。我們有很多周的時間來認真履行職責。我們精心設計交易結構，採用合理的信用統計數據、有意義的契約、充足的股權緩衝來保護我們的資本、有吸引力的利差和股權共同投資。

Additionally, from a monitoring perspective, we received monthly financial statements to help us stay on top of the companies. With regard to covenants, unlike the erosion in the upper middle market, virtually all of our originated first lien loans had meaningful covenants, which help protect our capital. This is a significant reason why we believe we are well positioned in this environment.

此外，從監控的角度來看，我們每月都會收到財務報表，以幫助我們掌握公司的最新情況。就契約而言，與中上層市場受到侵蝕不同，我們發起的所有第一留置權貸款幾乎都具有有意義的契約，這有助於保護我們的資本。這是我們相信我們在此環境中處於有利地位的一個重要原因。

Many of our peers who focus on the upper middle market state that those bigger companies are less risky. That is a perception and may make some intuitive sense, but the reality is different. According to S&P loans with companies with less than $50 million of EBITDA have a lower default rate and a higher recovery rate than loans to companies with higher EBITDA.

許多專注於中上層市場的同業表示，那些規模較大的公司風險較小。這是一種看法，可能在直覺上有一定的道理，但現實卻有所不同。根據標準普爾的數據，向 EBITDA 低於 5,000 萬美元的公司發放的貸款違約率低於 EBITDA 較高的公司發放的貸款，而回收率高於向 EBITDA 較高的公司發放的貸款。

We believe that the meaningful covenant protections of the core middle market where there's more careful diligence and tighter monitoring have been an important part of this differentiated performance. As a provider of strategic capital, it fuels the growth of our portfolio companies. In many cases, we participate in the upside of the company by making an equity co-investment. Our returns on these equity co-investments have been excellent over time.

我們相信，核心中端市場中較為謹慎的審慎和更為嚴格的監控所帶來的有意義的契約保護，是實現差異化表現的重要組成部分。作為策略資本提供者，它推動了我們投資組合公司的成長。在很多情況下，我們透過股權共同投資來參與公司的發展。長期以來，我們對這些股權共同投資的回報一直很豐厚。

Overall, for our platform from inception through December 31, we've invested over $563 million in equity co-investments and have generated an IRR of 26% at a multiple on invested capital of 2 times. Since inception, nearly 18 years ago, PNNT has invested $8.6 billion at an average yield of 11.3% and has experienced a loss ratio on invested capital of approximately 20 basis points annually. This strong track record includes the investments of primarily subordinated debt that we made prior to the global financial crisis, legacy energy investments, and recently the pandemic.

總體而言，從成立到 12 月 31 日，我們已為平台投資了超過 5.63 億美元的股權共同投資，並以 2 倍的投資倍數產生了 26% 的內部收益率。自成立以來，近 18 年來，PNNT 已投資 86 億美元，平均殖利率為 11.3%，每年投資資本的損失率約為 20 個基點。這份良好的業績記錄包括我們在全球金融危機之前進行的主要次級債務投資、傳統能源投資以及最近的疫情投資。

With regard to the outlook, new loans in our target market are attractive. Our experienced and talented team and our wide origination funnel is producing active deal flow. Our continued focus remains on capital preservation and being patient investors. We want to reiterate our goal to generate attractive risk-adjusted returns through income, coupled with long-term preservation of capital.

從前景來看，我們目標市場的新貸款具有吸引力。我們經驗豐富、才華橫溢的團隊和廣泛的發起管道正在產生活躍的交易流。我們將繼續關注資本保全和成為耐心的投資者。我們希望重申我們的目標，即透過收入以及長期資本保留來產生有吸引力的風險調整回報。

We seek to find investment opportunities in growing middle market companies that have high free cash flow conversion. We capture that free cash flow primarily through debt instruments, and we pay out those cash flows in the form of dividends to our shareholders.

我們尋求在具有較高自由現金流轉換率的成長型中型市場公司中尋找投資機會。我們主要透過債務工具取得自由現金流，並以股利的形式向股東支付這些現金流。

Let me now turn the call over to Rick, our CFO, to take us through the financial results.

現在，我將電話轉給我們的財務長 Rick，讓他向我們介紹財務結果。

Thank you, Art. For the quarter ended December 31, GAAP and core net investment income was $0.20 per share. For the quarter, NII was negatively impacted by $0.012 per share as a result of placing our investment in Pragmatic Institute on full nonaccrual. Operating expenses for the quarter were as follows: interest and credit facility expenses were $11.7 million; base management and incentive fees were $7 million. General and administrative expenses were $1.75 million and provision for excise taxes was $0.7 million.

謝謝你，阿特。截至 12 月 31 日的季度，GAAP 和核心淨投資收益為每股 0.20 美元。本季度，由於我們對 Pragmatic Institute 的投資完全不計提，NII 每股受到 0.012 美元的負面影響。本季的營業費用如下：利息和信貸費用為 1,170 萬美元；基本管理和獎勵費用為700萬美元。一般及行政開支為 175 萬美元，消費稅撥備為 70 萬美元。

For the quarter ended December 31, net realized and unrealized change on investments and debt, including provision for taxes was a gain of $3.1 million. As of December 31, our GAAP and adjusted NAV was $7.57 per share, which is up 0.1% from $7.56 per share in the prior quarter. As of December 31, our debt-to-equity ratio was 1.57 times is diversified across multiple funding sources, including both secured and unsecured debt.

截至 12 月 31 日的季度，投資和債務的淨已實現和未實現變動（包括稅款準備金）為 310 萬美元。截至 12 月 31 日，我們的 GAAP 和調整後淨值為每股 7.57 美元，較上一季的每股 7.56 美元上漲 0.1%。截至 12 月 31 日，我們的負債權益比率為 1.57 倍，資金來源多元化，包括有擔保負債和無擔保負債。

As of December 31, our key portfolio statistics were as follows: our portfolio remains highly diversified with 158 companies across 35 different industries. The weighted average yield on our debt investments was 12%. We had two nonaccruals, which represent 4.3% of the portfolio at cost and 1.5% at market value. The portfolio is comprised of 50% first lien secured debt, 4% second lien secured debt, 11% subordinated notes to PSLF, 6% other subordinated debt, 6% equity in PSLF, and 23% other preferred and common equity. 94% of the debt portfolio is floating rate. Debt to EBITDA on the portfolio is 4.9 times, and interest coverage is 1.9 times.

截至 12 月 31 日，我們的主要投資組合統計數據如下：我們的投資組合仍然高度多樣化，擁有 35 個不同行業的 158 家公司。我們的債務投資的加權平均收益率為12％。我們有兩項未計項目，以成本計算佔投資組合的 4.3%，以市價計算佔 1.5%。該投資組合由 50% 的第一留置權擔保債務、4% 的第二留置權擔保債務、11% 的 PSLF 次級票據、6% 的其他次級債務、6% 的 PSLF 股權以及 23% 的其他優先股和普通股組成。 94%的債務組合是浮動利率。此投資組合的債務與 EBITDA 比率為 4.9 倍，利息覆蓋率為 1.9 倍。

Now let me turn the call back to Art.

現在讓我把電話轉回給 Art。

Thanks, Rick. In closing, I'd like to thank our dedicated and talented team of professionals for their continued commitment to PNNT and its shareholders. Thank you all for your time today and for your continued investment and confidence in us. That concludes our remarks at this time. I would like to open up the call to questions.

謝謝，里克。最後，我要感謝我們敬業且才華橫溢的專業團隊對 PNNT 及其股東的持續承諾。感謝大家今天的寶貴時間以及對我們的持續投入與信任。我們的發言到此結束。我想開始提問。

(Operator Instructions)

（操作員指令）

Mark Hughes, Truist.

馬克·休斯，Truist。

Yeah, thank you. Art, I'm just sort of curious, any commentary about the level of capacity or competition in the core middle market, I think you described spreads is relatively stable. So that's one meaningful indicator. I'm just curious whether you've seen more folks in the market pursuing these type of loans?

是的，謝謝。阿特，我只是有點好奇，關於核心中端市場容量或競爭水平的任何評論，我認為你所描述的利差相對穩定。這是一個有意義的指標。我只是好奇，您是否看到市場上有更多人追求此類貸款？

It's a good question, Mark. We have not seen new players, the larger players have not chosen to come down into this kind of space. We've seen them exit and go upmarket. So there's really just a handful of players that we view as kind of peers in this market. And frankly, there's not many of those peers who kind of have our game plan of being willing and able to finance a $10 million EBITDA company, for instance, and then have a game plan to finance the growth of that company up to $30 million, $40 million, $50 million of EBITDA.

這是個好問題，馬克。我們還沒有看到新的參與者，更大的參與者也沒有選擇進入這種領域。我們看到他們退出並進入高端市場。因此，我們認為這個市場上的同業實際上只有少數幾家。坦白說，沒有多少同行像我們這樣願意並且能夠為一家 EBITDA 為 1000 萬美元的公司提供資金，然後製定計劃將該公司的增長資金提供到 3000 萬美元、4000 萬美元、5000 萬美元的 EBITDA。

So we're one of the only couple of players, I think, that can kind of are willing able and would like to do that kind of growth financing. In many cases, we'll make an initial loan to the platform, and we will structure a delay draw term loan to fuel the growth of that company. So no new competitors of meaning; spreads have kind of stabilized at [500, 550] in general, and it's a pretty good environment to be a lender.

因此，我認為，我們是僅有的幾家願意並且能夠進行此類成長融資的參與者之一。在許多情況下，我們會向平台提供初始貸款，並建立延期提取定期貸款來促進該公司的發展。因此沒有新的有意義的競爭對手；利差整體穩定在[500, 550]，對貸款人來說這是一個相當不錯的環境。

How about your appetite or the companies or private equity appetite for the equity coinvestments? Is that something you're pursuing more or less, is that going to be a stable part of the investment portfolio?

您或公司或私募股權對股權共同投資的興趣如何？這是您或多或少追求的東西嗎？

I don't think we do it more or less. They're each individual investment decisions. We first try to figure out if we can make a good and safe loan. And then separately, as a separate investment, we evaluate the equity co-invest. In those prototypical deals where we're fueling the growth, and we're helping these companies and private equity sponsors grow, we think it makes a lot of sense to be participating in that upside to some extent that we're helping to create with our loans.

我認為我們做得不會多也不會少。它們是每個人的個人投資決策。我們首先要弄清楚是否可以提供優質、安全的貸款。然後，作為一項單獨的投資，我們對股權共同投資進行評估。在我們推動成長、幫助這些公司和私募股權發起人成長的典型交易中，我們認為，在某種程度上參與其中並透過貸款幫助創造收益是非常有意義的。

So in many of those cases, we will ask for and receive some form of upside equity co-invest instruments to capture some of that growth. And we think it makes a lot of sense as a portfolio matter because even though we're highly diversified and we're very selective and we try to keep leverage low, we like having something in our portfolio that's got a little bit of lift. And on those co-invest over time, as we've said, we've had a 26% IRR and 2 times MOIC, so that's helped to solidify NAV over time.

因此，在許多情況下，我們會要求並取得某種形式的上行股權共同投資工具，以獲取部分成長。我們認為從投資組合的角度來說這非常有意義，因為儘管我們高度多元化，非常挑剔，並且試圖保持低槓桿率，但我們還是希望投資組合中有一些能帶來一定提升的東西。正如我們所說，隨著時間的推移，透過這些共同投資，我們的 IRR 達到了 26%，MOIC 達到 2 倍，因此這有助於隨著時間的推移鞏固 NAV。

And then when we think about net investment activity for PNNT, obviously, the JV took down a lot of the investments. How do you think that will trend in the kind of the first half of the year? Would we expect PNNT to be net investor net positive investment activity?

然後，當我們考慮 PNNT 的淨投資活動時，顯然合資企業承擔了大量投資。您認為今年上半年的趨勢會是如何？我們是否預期 PNNT 為淨投資者淨正投資活動？

At this point, PNNT is optimized. I still think we believe PNNT, long term, should be leveraged in the 1.25, 1.3 times debt-to-equity range. So is a little bit higher than that right now, really just as a holding PNNT for assets that are going to end up in that growing joint venture. So long term, we're still anticipating PNNT's leverage back down to that 1.25, 1.3 times zone. But a little bit more leverage than that for now temporarily as it holds assets that will ultimately end up in that joint venture.

至此，PNNT 已優化完畢。我仍然認為，從長期來看，PNNT 的債務權益比應該在 1.25 到 1.3 倍之間。所以現在這個數字要稍微高一點，實際上只是作為持有最終會進入不斷發展的合資企業的資產的 PNNT。因此從長期來看，我們仍預期 PNNT 的槓桿率將回落至 1.25 至 1.3 倍區間。但目前，其槓桿率暫時還會稍微高一些，因為其持有的資產最終會流入合資企業。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Robert Dodd, Raymond James.

羅伯特多德、雷蒙詹姆斯。

Morning. On the spillover income question, I mean you've got -- to your point in the prepared remarks, I mean, $0.99, I mean that's basically your dividend run rate, which means functionally, you can't cut the dividend until that's worked down, not without paying corporate tax at least. So where would you like to work that spillover income down to in terms of like how many quarters of dividend or a dollar number I mean? Because that's -- it's -- to your point, it's going to take a long time at the rate it's getting eaten into. But just give us any color on what your target kind of level would be for that?

早晨。關於溢出收入問題，我的意思是，正如你在準備好的評論中所指出的那樣，0.99 美元，這基本上是你的股息運行率，這意味著從功能上講，你不能削減股息，直到股息降低，至少在繳納公司稅的情況下不能削減。那麼，就股息的季度數或美元數而言，您希望將溢出收入計算到多少？因為正如你所說，按照它被侵蝕的速度，這將需要很長時間。但請您告訴我們，您的目標水平是怎樣的？

It's a great question. And part of it is what's the market opportunity? Where is the yield in the market? What's our equity rotation looking like. At this point, we're kind of steady as she goes, we think we should be earning more than [20] on a core basis. As we said, [21, 22], we should be. We're hoping that 2025 will give us an opportunity to rotate equity. And you see some of the names that have been marked up. We would hope we can turn some of those into cash.

這是一個很好的問題。其中一部分是市場機會是什麼？市場的報酬率在哪裡？我們的股權輪換情況如何。目前，我們對她的表現比較穩定，我們認為我們的核心收入應該超過 [20]。正如我們所說[21，22]，我們應該這樣做。我們希望 2025 年能給我們一個輪換股權的機會。您會看到一些名字已被標記。我們希望能夠將其中的一部分轉化為現金。

So I don't necessarily know that we have a target. We know that our shareholders like a steady, stable dividend stream. We think we've got plenty of runway to do that under the current construct. But we'll kind of grind through 2025, see where we end up, and continuously speak to our Board about it and try to understand where the market is and how the overall platform is doing in terms of kind of getting rotation on the equity.

所以我不一定知道我們是否有目標。我們知道我們的股東喜歡穩定的股利流。我們認為，在目前的架構下，我們有足夠的空間來實現這一目標。但我們會努力堅持到 2025 年，看看最終會達到什麼程度，並不斷與董事會討論這個問題，試圖了解市場的現狀以及整個平台在股權輪換方面的表現如何。

And I don't really have an exact answer for you. It's kind of like we take it as it goes. This year, the game plan is clear for 2025, steady she goes, grind our way through it, try to rotate some equity, come up [for air] in a year, and we are committed to keeping the dividend where it is.

但我確實無法給你一個確切的答案。這有點像我們順其自然。今年，2025 年的計畫很明確，我們要穩步前進，努力度過難關，嘗試輪換一些股權，一年後再回來，我們致力於保持當前的股息。

Got it. Moving on to the -- on Pragmatic obviously, full nonaccrual now. What are the prospects for a restructuring there like -- and maybe some of that equitization of some of the debt or something like that where the remainder of the debt comes back on to accrual. I mean is that a likely or potential outcome in the near medium term for that asset?

知道了。繼續討論——顯然，在務實方面，現在完全不計息。那裡重組的前景是什麼樣的——也許是部分債務的公平化或類似的東西，剩餘債務將重新回到應計範圍。我的意思是，這是否是該資產近期或中期內可能或潛在的結果？

Yeah. It's a good question, and we're figuring out as we speak. Our current assumption is that during this quarter, the quarter ended March, there will be some form of restructuring there, some debt will be converted and there'll be a yield instrument coming out of that.

是的。這是個好問題，我們正在邊討論邊尋找答案。我們目前的假設是，在本季度，也就是截至 3 月的季度，將會出現某種形式的重組，部分債務將被轉換，並將產生收益工具。

Got it. And then just kind of following on from Mark's question. In terms of the environment, I mean, you are very active. What areas do you -- and you've talked about some really attractive vintage. But I mean are there areas in particular that you'd like to ramp up exposure more in the portfolio?

知道了。然後就繼續回答馬克的問題。從環境方面來說，我的意思是，你非常活躍。您喜歡哪些領域的葡萄酒？但我的意思是，您是否特別希望在投資組合中加大對某些領域的關注？

Obviously, there's -- within the JV as well, I mean there's industry concentrations you're trying to manage and things like that. So I mean, are you seeing the right kind of industries that in terms of being attractive also to manage your concentrations in that vehicle and directly on balance sheet as well?

顯然，在合資企業內部也存在這樣的情況，我的意思是，你要試著管理產業集中度之類的事情。所以我的意思是，您是否看到了正確的行業類型，這些行業在吸引力方面是否也有利於管理您在該工具中的集中度以及直接在資產負債表上的表現？

Yeah. So as you know, we kind of respond to what's being shown us in the marketplace and where the middle market private equity community finds value. So certainly, we can deemphasize certain areas and we can emphasize others. Healthcare is the biggest portion of economy, it's the biggest portion of our portfolio, and we try to in healthcare, particularly with reimbursement risk, try to find areas that are on the right side of cost containment, try to find providers, service providers, and other types of companies that can provide healthcare at a lower cost and still maintain high quality.

是的。所以如你所知，我們會對市場向我們展示的東西以及中端市場私募股權界發現的價值做出回應。因此，我們當然可以弱化某些領域的重點，也可以強調其他領域。醫療保健是經濟中最大的一部分，也是我們投資組合中最大的一部分，我們試圖在醫療保健領域，特別是在報銷風險方面，尋找能夠控製成本的領域，尋找供應商、服務提供者和其他類型的公司，以較低的成本提供醫療保健，同時仍保持高品質。

So that's something that -- it's probably just a big part of the portfolio. We -- I think our Performance in Health care is probably better than some of our peers. I think some of our peers have gone caught in it, whether it's just not picking the right credits that are on the right side of cost containment, or just having higher leverage. As you've heard, our incoming debt-to-EBITDA for new loans is under 4 times. So when you -- or 4 times exactly here in this vehicle.

所以，這可能只是投資組合的重要組成部分。我認為我們在醫療保健領域的表現可能比我們的一些同行更好。我認為我們的一些同行已經陷入了其中，無論是因為沒有選擇符合成本控制要求的正確信貸，還是因為槓桿率較高。正如您所聽到的，我們新貸款的債務與 EBITDA 比率不到 4 倍。所以當你——或者在這輛車上正好四次。

So when you structure deals with more reasonable leverage, you can deal with the [curve bar it] too. So healthcare will remain. Government Services, again, that's topical given what's going on with the government. We believe we're on the right side of financing companies that are driving cost containment for the government and are aligned with government payment.

因此，當您建立更合理的槓桿交易時，您也可以處理[曲線條]。因此醫療保健仍將繼續存在。再次強調，政府服務是當前政府正在發生的事情主題。我們相信，我們站在為政府控製成本並與政府支付保持一致的融資公司的正確一邊。

Again, we're responding to what our sponsors are showing us. And there's a whole proliferation of other types of industries, business services, consumer and others that that were shown. But we do not -- we can kind of dial things up or dial things down. For us, it always begins with is it a steady stable cash flow stream that is protected. Is anyone really going to care if this company goes away or not, and trying to keep leverage as low as we possibly can. And then, of course, alignment with the sponsors putting in a lot of equity beneath us.

再次，我們正在回應贊助商向我們展示的內容。此外，還有各種其他類型的行業、商業服務、消費者等等。但我們不會——我們可以把事情調高或調低。對我們來說，一切始於受到保護的穩定現金流。是否真的有人會關心這家公司是否會消失，並且我們會盡力將槓桿率保持在盡可能低的水平。然後，當然，也要與在我們之下投入大量股權的贊助商保持一致。

Got it. Thank you. Appreciate it.

知道了。謝謝。非常感謝。

Brian McKenna, Citizens JMP.

布萊恩·麥肯納 (Brian McKenna)，公民 JMP。

Great. So just on the portfolio rotation opportunity, is there any way to think about the timing and magnitude of monetizing some of your equity investments? And then redeploying this capital into loans? And I guess, ultimately, where does the percent of equity investments within the portfolio settling at longer term?

偉大的。那麼，僅就投資組合輪換機會而言，有什麼方法可以考慮將部分股權投資貨幣化的時機和幅度嗎？然後將這筆資本重新部署為貸款？我想，最終，投資組合中的股權投資百分比在長期內會穩定在什麼位置？

Yeah. So I'll try to deal with the last question first, which is what are we targeting? We're certainly targeting less equity. Certainly, you can look at the equity book and see where there's been markups and the goal would be that's kind of a leading indicator for where there might be some monetization opportunities.

是的。因此我將首先嘗試解決最後一個問題，即我們的目標是什麼？我們的目標肯定是減少公平性。當然，你可以查看股權帳簿，看看哪裡有加價，目標是這可以作為一種領先指標，表明哪裡可能存在一些貨幣化機會。

But in terms of the equity book, I mean, let's exclude the JV equity, which is about 6% of the portfolio, and that's just part of this JV that's generating a very healthy 18% return in cash and is over 20% in other equity. Some of it's co-invest. I think about half of it is kind of from co-invest where we've co-invested and the other half is restructured equity where we converted debt to equity.

但就股權帳面而言，我的意思是，讓我們排除合資股權，這約佔投資組合的 6％，這只是該合資企業的一部分，該合資企業產生了非常健康的 18％ 的現金回報，其他股權回報超過 20％。其中一些是共同投資。我認為其中大約一半來自我們共同投資的共同投資，另一半是我們將債務轉換為股權的重組股權。

Some of that -- some of both of those has been marked up. So we hope that '25 is the year where we're going to see more M&A activity in this core middle market, where we can monetize some of those names and convert that equity to cash and ultimately yield.

其中一些——其中一些都已被標記。因此，我們希望 25 年能看到這個核心中端市場出現更多併購活動，我們可以將其中一些公司貨幣化，並將這些股權轉換為現金並最終獲得收益。

Look, we'd like to get that 20%-ish number down in half if we can. That's our goal. Try to cut that in half over time. We have not met that goal. It's taken us too long, to be honest with you. And some of it we kind of control, some of it we don't, but that's got to be our target, and that's what we're going to try to do.

瞧，如果可以的話，我們希望將這個 20% 左右的數字減少一半。這就是我們的目標。嘗試隨著時間的推移將其減少一半。我們尚未實現這一目標。說實話，我們花了太長時間。有些事情我們可以控制，有些事情我們無法控制，但這是我們的目標，也是我們要努力去做的事情。

Okay. Great. That's helpful. And then, Art, I've asked this in the past, but assuming you are successful kind of rotating out of the equity and into loans and that kind of ratio looks similar and the percent looks similar to PFLT, I mean, do you ultimately, maybe potentially look to merge the two, so you have one publicly traded BDC? I'd just love to get your updated thoughts there.

好的。偉大的。這很有幫助。然後，阿特，我過去曾問過這個問題，但假設您成功地將股權轉為貸款，並且這種比率看起來相似，百分比看起來與 PFLT 相似，我的意思是，您最終是否可能考慮將兩者合併，這樣您就有了一個公開交易的 BDC？我只是想了解您的最新想法。

Yeah. Look, there's nothing more update than what we've talked, which is we've got a little bit of a cleanup scenario here. We've to focus on it. Then we'll lift our head up and kind of look at the options. There are certainly arguments to do something, there are certainly arguments not to do something. All options are always on the table. There has been historically a differentiated portfolio, difference in yields, difference in underlying portfolio. We got a little bit of a job to do first, and then we'll come up and try to assess what's best for shareholders.

是的。你看，除了我們談論的內容之外，沒有更多更新了，也就是說，我們在這裡進行了一些清理工作。我們必須集中精力於此。然後我們會抬起頭來看看有哪些選擇。做某事肯定有理由，不做某事肯定有理由。所有選擇都擺在桌面上。從歷史上看，投資組合存在差異化，收益率有差異，基礎投資組合也有差異。我們首先要做一些工作，然後我們會想出並嘗試評估什麼對股東最有利。

Okay great that's helpful. I'll leave it there.

好的，很好，這很有幫助。我就把它留在那裡。

Paul Johnson, KBW.

保羅·約翰遜，KBW。

Yeah, good afternoon, thanks for taking my questions. On some of those investments that were marked higher. I noticed [Bilight] was marked higher again this quarter that the market has been moving up over the past few quarters. I mean should we take that as an indication of interest that you might think the company has been receiving? Or has that just been more of a result of just performance?

是的，下午好，感謝您回答我的問題。其中一些投資標價較高。我注意到 [Bilight] 本季股價再次上漲，過去幾季市場一直在上漲。我的意思是，我們是否應該將此視為您認為公司已經收到興趣的跡象？或者這只是表現的結果？

Yeah. Look, it's hard for me to -- I can't comment on M&A and all that. I can comment that the company has performed well, and you've seen that in the markups. Most of these companies are owned by private equity firms who ultimately try to sell. I can't comment on a specific name, but the company has been performing well.

是的。聽著，我很難——我無法對併購和所有這些發表評論。我可以評論說該公司表現良好，並且您已經從標價中看到了這一點。這些公司大部分由私募股權公司擁有，這些公司最終會試圖出售。我無法對具體名稱發表評論，但該公司的表現一直很好。

Got it, thanks, Art. And then last question was, I noticed that PNNT participated in the marketplace events loan that PennantPark reinvested with the company following the sale of the business. Just given that I don't believe PNNT participated in the previous investment and it's just a slightly lower yield. I was just curious as to as to why PNNT participated this time?

明白了，謝謝，阿特。最後一個問題是，我注意到 PNNT 參與了 PennantPark 在業務出售後向該公司進行再投資的市場活動貸款。只是鑑於我不相信 PNNT 參與了先前的投資，而且收益率只是略低一些。我只是好奇 PNNT 這次為什麼要參加？

I'm going to defer to Rick. I don't think that PNNT was involved in the marketplace. Rick, any color.

我將聽從 Rick 的意見。我不認為 PNNT 參與了市場活動。里克，任何顏色。

You're correct in terms of the realization. But PNNT did participate in the new loan and the thought there all is, again, that loan will ultimately leave at the joint venture.

從實現的角度來看，您是正確的。但 PNNT 確實參與了新貸款，人們再次認為，這筆貸款最終將在合資企業中流出。

Oh yes, the new loan, yes.

哦，是的，新的貸款，是的。

Yeah the new loan.

是的，新的貸款。

Right. So there was a new buyer that came in and bought marketplace events. PFLT and a group of other lenders or the shareholders and PFLT was the lead equity investor, a new private equity sponsor came in, bought the company at an attractive price. And as part of that, there was an attractive loan to be made in a company that we obviously knew very well. So we did buy that loan across the platform, PFLT, PNNT, and ultimately, the joint ventures will own a piece of that marketplace events alone.

正確的。因此有一位新買家進來購買市場活動。PFLT 和一組其他貸方或股東，其中 PFLT 是主要的股權投資者，一個新的私募股權發起人加入，以誘人的價格收購了該公司。作為其中的一部分，我們顯然非常了解一家公司，可以提供一筆很有吸引力的貸款。因此，我們確實透過 PFLT、PNNT 平台購買了該貸款，最終，合資企業將獨自擁有該市場活動的一部分。

Got it. And when you made that loan, was that alone that you chose to reinvest in the company or was that a loan that was essentially carried over to [the enact] deal?

知道了。當您發放這筆貸款時，您是否選擇將其單獨再投資於該公司，還是這筆貸款基本上被轉入[制定]交易？

Yeah, it was a separate transaction. So the funds that were in the old marketplace events got cash, and then we evaluated where the new loan and a new equity co-invest would make sense. And then across the platform. PennantPark platform bought new senior debt and new equity co-invest in the new marketplace events where another sponsor came in and bought the company, and that's been allocated across the platform.

是的，這是一筆單獨的交易。因此，舊市場活動中的基金獲得了現金，然後我們評估了新貸款和新股權共同投資的合理性。然後跨越平台。PennantPark 平台購買了新的優先債務和新的股權，共同投資於新的市場活動，另一個贊助商加入並收購了該公司，這些資金已在整個平台上分配。

Okay thank you Art. That's all for me.

好的，謝謝你，阿特。對我來說這就是全部了。

Mickey Schleien, Ladenburg.

米奇‧施萊恩，拉登堡。

Art, just a couple of questions from me. What did you assume in terms of the fund's balance sheet leverage and equity rotation in your core NII guidance?

阿特，我只想問幾個問題。在您的核心 NII 指導中，您對基金的資產負債表槓桿率和股權輪換有何假設？

Core NII was actual NII. There's no -- this kind of actual for the quarter ended December 31. In terms of the guidance going forward -- your question is about the guidance going forward? We just said that's kind of just assuming continued growth in the joint venture.

核心 NII 是實際的 NII。截至 12 月 31 日的季度沒有這種實際情況。關於未來的指導—您的問題是關於未來的指導嗎？我們只是說這只是假設合資企業繼續成長。

Okay. And the balance sheet leverage remaining where it is?

好的。資產負債表槓桿率是否仍維持現況？

Yes. And over time, kind of getting back down to [1.3] after we fill up that joint venture, we could grow that joint venture, we could do another joint venture. We hope to be able to get some equity realizations here in the next number of quarters, which will certainly be helpful.

是的。隨著時間的推移，當我們填補了合資企業之後，價格又會回到 [1.3]，我們可以發展合資企業，也可以再建立一家合資企業。我們希望能夠在接下來的幾個季度內實現一些股權，這肯定會有所幫助。

For sure. And just a housekeeping question, maybe for Rick. What were the main drivers of the realized loss and the unrealized gains.

一定。這只是一個普通的問題，也許是針對 Rick 的。已實現損失和未實現收益的主要驅動因素是什麼。

Sure. Let's see. So the main drivers for the unrealized, there was a write-up in JF Intermediate and a write-up in Federal Advisory Partners. Those are the two larger write-ups. On the write-down that netted that down, the equity investment in Cascade Environmental and additional write-down on Pragmatic where the two main large drivers on the right downside.

當然。讓我們來看看。因此，未實現的主要驅動因素是 JF Intermediate 和 Federal Advisory Partners 中的一項增值。這是兩篇篇幅較長的文章。在淨減記中，對 Cascade Environmental 的股權投資和對 Pragmatic 的額外減記是右側下行的兩個主要驅動因素。

In terms of realized loss for PNNT, that was a restructuring for [STG] also goes by a Reception Purchaser. That was the main driver for the realized loss during the quarter.

就 PNNT 的實際損失而言，這是 [STG] 的重組，也被稱為接待購買者。這是本季實現虧損的主要原因。

I understand. That's it for me this afternoon. Thank you.

我明白。這就是我今天下午要講的內容了。謝謝。

Thanks, Mickey.

謝謝，米奇。

Melissa Wedel, JPMorgan.

摩根大通的梅麗莎·韋德爾。

Good afternoon. Thanks for taking my questions. Most of mine have been asked, but I thought I would follow up and clarify a couple of things. Firstly, on the growth of the JV, when we look at the dividend income to the BDC from that JV, it looks like that was pretty flat quarter-over-quarter, except that the portfolio assets that the JV had grown pretty decently even since September 30. How should we think about the growth in the dividend to the BDC from PSLF and like the cadence of that going forward?

午安.感謝您回答我的問題。我的大部分問題已經被問過了，但我想我應該跟進並澄清一些事情。首先，關於合資企業的成長，當我們查看該合資企業為 BDC 提供的股息收入時，看起來該收入與上一季度相比持平，但合資企業的投資組合資產自 9 月 30 日以來增長相當可觀。我們應該如何看待 PSLF 向 BDC 提供的股息成長及其未來的節奏？

Yes. It's a great question and the growth in the underlying JV portfolio should match what comes over to PNNT. But we don't book income unless it's actually distributed. So there's a bit of a reserve that we create at the joint venture. And there's no particular reason we're creating reserve there. There's -- other than just have excess cash so that we have a bit of a reserve.

是的。這是一個很好的問題，基礎合資投資組合的成長應該與 PNNT 的成長相符。但除非實際分配，否則我們不會記入收入。因此，我們在合資企業中建立了一些儲備。我們在那裡建立儲備並沒有什麼特別的原因。除了擁有多餘的現金以外，我們還有一些儲備。

But you would imagine, and it would certainly normalize over time where growth in the joint venture and growth in the investment in that joint venture will yield the dividends. Rick, I don't know if you have any particular explanation for why the phenomenon Melissa is talking about in this particular quarter?

但你可以想像，隨著時間的推移，它肯定會正常化，合資企業的成長和該合資企業的投資成長將產生紅利。瑞克，我不知道你對梅莉莎在本季談論的現像有何特別的解釋？

Yeah. Sure. Melissa, last quarter, the JV did distribute some of that reserve Art just mentioned. And I believe we detailed that out last quarter as kind of a core NII adjustment because that portion was, I'll say, less recurring. Additionally, we fund JV through both debt and equity. So as we fund additional capital to fuel the growth of that JV portfolio, the economics back to us, a portion is in that debt instrument, so you just don't see it in that dividend line item on the income statement.

是的。當然。梅麗莎，上個季度，合資公司確實分配了阿特剛才提到的部分儲備。我相信我們在上個季度已經將其詳細說明為一種核心 NII 調整，因為我認為該部分的經常性支出較少。此外，我們透過債務和股權為合資企業提供資金。因此，當我們注入額外資本來推動合資投資組合的成長時，經濟效益回到我們身上，其中一部分是債務工具，因此您不會在損益表的股息項目中看到它。

One way to look at it is comprehensively between the debt instrument and the equity instrument side.

一種觀察方法是綜合考慮債務工具和股權工具兩方面。

Okay. Yeah. And then just to clarify, I wasn't quite sure I fully followed your comments on the exposure to government services and defense companies. Do you -- how much exposure is there in the portfolio to any potential sort of reimbursement risk, whether that's in the government segment and defense segment or even in the healthcare segment of the portfolio. Have you taken a more critical look at that?

好的。是的。然後需要澄清的是，我不太確定我是否完全理解了你關於政府服務和國防公司曝光的評論。您是否知道，您的投資組合中存在多少潛在的報銷風險，無論是在政府部門、國防部門，還是在醫療保健部門？您是否對此進行過更批判性的審視？

Yes. No, we're looking at --

是的。不，我們正在考慮--

Sorry, for any tariff exposure as well.

抱歉，對於任何關稅風險也存在疑問。

Yeah. We have limited tariff exposure. Most of the companies that would be impacted by tariffs, we're not really involved in and the ones that we are kind of had a dry run of tariff exposure during the last Trump administration. So the tariff exposure is very, very limited. Biggest part of the US economy and biggest part of our portfolio is healthcare.

是的。我們的關稅風險有限。大多數受到關稅影響的公司我們實際上並沒有參與其中，而我們參與的公司在上一屆川普政府期間也經歷了一次關稅演習。因此關稅影響非常非常有限。美國經濟的最大部分和我們投資組合的最大部分是醫療保健。

So for sure, there is government reimbursement risk in healthcare, the way we comport ourselves in that is we try to focus on healthcare companies that are driving lower costs with reasonable quality. So if we're on the right side of that, which is lower cost, reasonable quality in any environment, we're likely to be okay. And then we layer on the fact that we keep leverage lower. The average new loan is 4 times debt to EBITDA in this portfolio with at least 50% equity beneath us. So where some of our peers may have stumbled occasionally in healthcare. To date, we're relatively clean because of those two facts.

因此可以肯定的是，醫療保健領域存在政府報銷風險，我們處理這一問題的方式是，我們試圖專注於那些以合理的品質降低成本的醫療保健公司。所以如果我們的立場正確，在任何環境下成本較低、品質合理，那麼我們可能就不會有問題。然後，我們進一步強調，我們要保持較低的槓桿率。在這個投資組合中，平均新貸款是債務與 EBITDA 比率的 4 倍，且股權至少低於我們 50%。因此，我們的一些同行可能在醫療保健領域偶爾會遭遇失誤。到目前為止，由於這兩個事實，我們還比較乾淨。

So same applies on the government services and defense side, when you look at that portfolio, we're not doing tanks, we're not doing missiles. We are focused typically on service companies where you have individuals, people walking into offices and sitting behind computers, doing things like cybersecurity, intelligence, maneuvering satellites, doing technology updates. Those, again, typically are what we would call on the right side of cost, on the right side of being very efficient with taxpayer dollars, going into government contracting and defense.

同樣的情況也適用於政府服務和國防方面，當你看這個投資組合時，我們不生產坦克，也不生產飛彈。我們通常關注服務公司，這些公司有個人，他們走進辦公室，坐在電腦前，從事網路安全、情報、操縱衛星、進行技術更新等工作。再說一遍，這些通常都是我們所說的成本合理的，能夠有效率地利用納稅人的錢，用於政府承包和國防。

And then when you drill down one layer deeper, in those companies, they typically get paid in two ways. One is cost-plus where they provide the cost and they create a margin above that. And on those companies, those companies by and large are making single-digit EBITDA margins. They're not making excess margins on cost plus. If they were making excess margins and cost plus, they would be more at risk.

如果你深入挖掘一下，你會發現在這些公司裡，他們通常會透過兩種方式獲得報酬。一種是成本加成，即公司提供成本，然後在成本之上創造利潤。這些公司的 EBITDA 利潤率總體上都是個位數。他們並沒有透過成本加成獲取超額利潤。如果他們獲得超額利潤和成本加成，他們面臨的風險就會更大。

And then the other way companies get paid is through fixed price where they take risk, they can essentially go along providing a service for fixed price, in which case the government is dishing the risk off to the provider, the providers taking risk. In those cases, those companies could earn higher margins and they could also earn lower margins depending on how they priced their service relative to their cost.

然後，公司獲得報酬的另一種方式是透過固定價格，他們承擔風險，他們基本上可以以固定價格提供服務，在這種情況下，政府將風險轉嫁給提供者，而提供者承擔風險。在這些情況下，這些公司可以獲得更高的利潤，也可能獲得更低的利潤，這取決於他們如何相對於成本定價他們的服務。

Again, if you look at that piece of that portfolio, we've seen that a very good operators who are generating fair margins not exorbitant, but fair margins, and they're taking risk off the government and they're going long service. So we think we're relatively well insulated.

再者，如果你看一下該投資組合的這一部分，我們會看到，非常優秀的運營商正在產生合理的利潤，雖然不是過高的利潤，但相當合理，他們正在承擔政府的風險並提供長期服務。因此我們認為我們的保護措施相對較好。

But every day is a new day, as you know, we don't know, but kind of we've comported ourselves in those two industries, which have government exposure to be focused on the right side of cost containment and then add on the layer of keeping debt-to-EBITDA 4 times or below, so that if there are curve balls, they could be dealt with appropriately.

但每一天都是新的一天，如你所知，我們不知道，但我們在這兩個行業中表現得很好，這兩個行業都有政府風險，需要專注於成本控制的正確方面，然後增加將債務與 EBITDA 之比保持在 4 倍或以下的層次，這樣，如果出現意外情況，就可以適當地處理。

I appreciate all the detail there. Actually, one final question for you. I take your point on looking -- hoping for some equity rotation in the coming quarters, as you said. It occurs me though that you also have a pretty elevated balance in treasuries. Is that something that could be a source of funds to deploy into something higher yielding until you get that equity rotation? Thanks very much.

我很欣賞那裡的所有細節。實際上，我還想問您最後一個問題。我接受你的觀點——正如你所說，希望在未來幾季出現一些股權輪換。不過我發現你們的國債餘額也相當高。在實現股權輪換之前，這是否可以作為資金來源，用於配置到收益更高的項目上？非常感謝。

Yeah. Good question. The treasuries are balance sheet management that we do at quarter end, typically, that's temporary to optimize our 30% bucket. We want to optimize our 30% bucket for the JV and for other 30% type assets. So that is a technique we use to optimize that bucket.

是的。好問題。財務是我們在季度末進行的資產負債表管理，通常是為了優化我們的 30% 資金桶而進行的臨時管理。我們希望針對合資企業和其他 30% 類型資產優化我們​​的 30% 份額。這是我們用來優化該儲存桶的技術。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Casey Alexander, Compass Point.

凱西亞歷山大，Compass Point。

Hi, good afternoon, Art, I've got a few questions for you. First of all, we know that base rates have gone down 100 basis points, but there's a delay in the way in which they flow through your balance sheet. What percentage of that 100 basis points would you suggest has already flowed through?

嗨，下午好，阿特，我有幾個問題想問你。首先，我們知道基準利率已經下降了 100 個基點，但它們在資產負債表中的流動方式有所延遲。您認為這 100 個基點中有多少百分比已經流通了？

That's a really good question. Rick, any -- I'll defer to Rick, I don't know if you have an estimate, Rick or off the cuff or we can certainly get back to you, Casey later on, but any sense?

這真是一個好問題。里克，任何——我會聽從里克的意見，我不知道你是否有估計，里克，或者即興的，或者我們當然可以稍後再回复你，凱西，但有什麼意義嗎？

It isn't off the cuff. I would say the majority of the borrowers are electing three-month LIBOR contracts. So they are flowing through on kind of a three-month basis. The quarter ends are -- there's a higher volume, a higher number of borrowers that kind of roll their contracts towards the quarter end, but they do roll all throughout the period. Off the cuff, I would say, in that 50% to 75% is already in the numbers.

這並不是即興的。我想說大多數借款人都選擇三個月的 LIBOR 合約。所以他們的流量是以三個月為週期的。季度末，借款量會更高，在季度末展期合約的借款人數量也會更多，但他們確實會在整個期間展期。即興地說，50% 到 75% 已經是數字了。

So you're halfway through flowing through to maybe three-quarters of the way flowing through. That would be your guess?

因此，您已經流過了一半到四分之三的路程。這是您的猜測嗎？

And we also have liabilities, obviously, that are floating as well. So we have some fixed and we have some floating liabilities. So there's some matching going on.

顯然，我們也有浮動的負債。因此，我們有一些固定負債，也有一些浮動負債。因此正在進行一些匹配。

Yeah, I'm aware. Based upon the amount that you shipped down to the JV this quarter, another quarter like that, and you're basically going to be at capacity. Do you think that you'll be at or near that capacity by the end of the first calendar quarter?

是的，我知道。根據您本季向合資公司運送的數量，再過一個季度，您的產能基本上就會達到最高水準。您認為到第一季末，您的產能將達到或接近這一水平嗎？

I'd say the next -- I'd say probably takes us two to three quarters to get that JV more fully ramped and optimized, gives us time to evaluate financing options, gives us time to evaluate equity rotation options. And then once we're optimized, we're optimized, and we'll do everything we can to add value thereafter. But kind of we're expecting and hoping for some or some kind of equity rotation between now and then.

我想說接下來——我想說我們可能需要兩到三個季度的時間來讓合資企業更加全面地發展和優化，讓我們有時間評估融資選擇，讓我們有時間評估股權輪調選擇。一旦我們進行了優化，我們就進行了優化，然後我們將盡一切努力增加價值。但我們期待並希望從現在到那時會出現某種形式的股權輪換。

So we should be thinking about a little bit slower pace going down to the JV over the next couple of quarters if we compare it relative to this last quarter?

因此，如果我們將其與上一季進行比較，我們應該考慮未來幾季合資企業的擴張速度會稍微慢一些？

Yeah. And part of it is just the activity levels. We're seeing, what I'll call, a normal quarterly flow, the December quarter was very busy, as you saw the March quarter that we're in today is a little bit slower. That's a normal seasonal activity. We still think '25 can be a very active year, but this quarter that we're in right now is a little bit slower.

是的。其中一部分只是活動水平。我們看到，我稱之為正常的季度流量，12 月季度非常繁忙，正如您所看到的，我們今天的 3 月季度稍微慢一些。這是正常的季節性活動。我們仍然認為 25 年將會是非常活躍的一年，但目前這個季度的成長速度稍微慢了一些。

Right. Okay. So let's have a conversation about the dividend distribution. I'm just curious, have you guys considered switching off to a year-end special distribution to clear up some of the spillover and rightsizing the dividend?

正確的。好的。那麼就讓我們來討論一下股息分配吧。我只是好奇，你們有沒有考慮過切換到年終特別分配，以清除一些溢出效應並調整股息？

Because it's pretty common knowledge that when you appear as though you're chronically under-earning your dividend, the market tends to impact your valuation in a negative way because you're doing that. And if you switch to a year-end special distribution, you could rightsize the dividend relative to your current earnings power, and perhaps the market would treat your valuation better. Have you considered that as an option?

因為眾所周知，當你看起來好像長期未能獲得足夠股息時，市場往往會對你的估值產生負面影響。如果您改為進行年終特別分配，您可以根據當前的盈利能力調整股息，也許市場會更好地對待您的估值。您是否考慮過這個選擇？

And we have. And Casey, we're happy to consider it and happy to talk to you any time you like about dividend policy and trying to figure out the optimal way to get our stock trading even better. So we can talk about that and talk about different things and what our shareholders would prefer. Is there -- I don't know, like you have institutional shareholders, you have retail shareholders. what's the preference? What do people want? What's the reaction going to be?

我們確實這麼做了。凱西，我們很樂意考慮這一點，並願意隨時與您討論股息政策，並試圖找出讓我們的股票交易變得更好的最佳方法。因此，我們可以談論這個問題，談論不同的事情以及我們的股東更喜歡什麼。有沒有──我不知道，例如你有機構股東，有散戶股東。有什麼偏好？人們想要什麼？反應會是怎樣？

So we can -- we have to have the call here, have that discussion in front of the community, but we're always happy to talk about it and talk about it with our Board as to what's going to help our stock trade better. And if there's other methodologies or other ways to do it, we are all ears.

所以我們可以——我們必須在這裡召開電話會議，在社區面前進行討論，但我們始終樂於討論這個問題，並與董事會討論如何幫助我們的股票更好地交易。如果有其他方法或其他方式可以實現這一目標，我們都會洗耳恭聽。

I would be more than happy to have that conversation with you. You mentioned that the JV when it reaches its capacity that you might enact another JV. I'm just -- is there any technical limitations given that when this JV has completed its capacity, it's going to be larger than the on-balance sheet BDC itself. And so I'm just wondering if there's any practical limitations to how much you can take off balance sheet relative to the size of the on-balance sheet BDC itself?

我非常高興與您進行這樣的對話。您提到，當合資企業達到其產能時，您可能會成立另一家合資企業。我只是——考慮到當這家合資企業完成其產能後，它的規模將大於表內的 BDC 本身，是否存在任何技術限制。所以我只是想知道，相對於資產負債表內 BDC 本身的規模，您可以從資產負債表外取出多少資金，是否有任何實際限制？

It's a great question. And certainly, there's a couple of limitations, a, it's part of the 30% bucket, right? So no more than 30% of our overall balance sheet at PNNT can be in one of these vehicles. And you're correct that the BDC -- that the JV itself can get quite large, but PNNT's ownership of it can be a different number, right? We're -- PNNT is a little bit more than 50% owners of it. The JV can continue to grow and PNNT can own less than 50%.

這是一個很好的問題。當然，也存在一些限制，a，它是 30% 桶的一部分，對嗎？因此，PNNT 整體資產負債表中，投資於此類投資工具的資金不能超過 30%。您說得對，BDC——合資企業本身可以變得相當大，但 PNNT 對它的所有權可能會有所不同，對嗎？我們 —— PNNT 擁有其 50% 多一點的股份。合資企業可以繼續發展，且 PNNT 可以擁有不到 50% 的股份。

I mean there are some of our peers who have the BDC owning 10% or 12% or 15% or 20% of a JV that can be very large with third-party investor capital. So the relevant thing is what's the 30% bucket and how much of that is in a JV-type structure. The JVs are -- have been very accretive. For us here, it's been generating 18%, which is accretive to PNNT.

我的意思是，我們的一些同行讓 BDC 擁有合資企業的 10% 或 12% 或 15% 或 20%，如果加入第三方投資者的資本，這個合資企業的規模可能會非常大。因此，相關的問題是 30% 的份額是多少以及其中有多少屬於合資結構。合資企業的增值潛力非常大。對我們來說，它已經產生了 18% 的收益，這對 PNNT 來說是增值的。

And when you think about it, kind of our investment [management's] managing all these assets, and we're not charging our shareholders an incremental management fee for it is just showing up in the form of incremental ROE. So We think it has some benefits. It's been a good thing for PNNT, and seem to be a good thing for other BDCs. So we'll continue to look at it, and we'll continue to look at our 30% bucket. And continue to figure out if we can add value through using the JV mechanism to do so.

如果你仔細想想，我們的投資（管理階層）管理所有這些資產，我們並沒有向股東收取增量管理費，因為它只是以增量 ROE 的形式出現。所以我們認為它有一些好處。這對 PNNT 來說是一件好事，而且對其他 BDC 來說似乎也是一件好事。因此我們會繼續關注它，並繼續關注我們的 30% 桶。並繼續研究是否可以透過使用合資機制來增加價值。

Lastly, have there been any notable credit events that have taken place in the portfolio since the end of the quarter?

最後，自本季末以來，投資組合中是否發生過任何值得注意的信用事件？

There's a company called Zips Car Wash, which has filed a prepackaged bankruptcy. It's not particularly big in our vehicle here, but it is out there, it's public information. It's not that material. It was appropriately marked, we believe, as of 12/31 and is in the marks. If you were to flow through the potential income impact, it might be [$0.005] a share.

有一家名為 Zips Car Wash 的公司已申請預先破產。它在我們的車輛上不是特別大，但它就在那裡，它是公開資訊。它沒那麼重要。我們相信，截至 12 月 31 日，它已被適當標記，並且處於標記之中。如果您要考慮潛在的收入影響，它可能是每股 [0.005 美元]。

That includes the amount of Zips that is located within the JV?

其中包括合資企業內的 Zips 數量嗎？

Yeah, JV and on balance sheet.

是的，合資和資產負債表上。

All right great. Thank you for taking my questions. I appreciate it.

好的，非常好。感謝您回答我的問題。我很感激。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Robert Dodd, Raymond James.

羅伯特多德、雷蒙詹姆斯。

Hi guys, yeah, Just a quick follow-up from Melissa's question actually. I mean there is a visible gap to your point in terms of stopping the reserve, so to speak. And there was an extra couple of million of that paid out in June.

大家好，是的，實際上我只是對梅麗莎的問題做一個快速的跟進。我的意思是，就停止儲備而言，你的觀點有明顯的差距。其中六月又額外支付了幾百萬美元。

So I mean, is there going to be a true-up distribution from the JV kind of -- is it going to be once a year? Or is it going to be once in a while? I mean should we expect an annual distribution from that vehicle that kind of captures that? Or is it just a true-up whenever you and the partner decide is appropriate?

所以我的意思是，合資公司是否會有實際分配──是每年一次嗎？或只是偶爾發生一次？我的意思是，我們是否應該期望該工具能夠實現年度分配？或者這只是您和伴侶認為合適時進行的一次調整？

More of the latter, kind of we try really to distribute the vast majority of NII out on a quarterly basis every so often because the credit performance has been good there. We just have a little bit of excess and we'll distribute it when appropriate.

後者更多是，我們嘗試每隔一段時間按季度分配絕大部分 NII，因為那裡的信貸表現一直很好。我們只是有一點點多餘的，我們會在適當的時候分配它。

Got it. Thank you.

知道了。謝謝。

Melissa Wedel, JPMorgan.

摩根大通的梅麗莎·韋德爾。

Thanks. One more follow-up, actually, to Brian's question about whether Penn and PFLT would ever make more sense in a combined vehicle. You mentioned that there's a little bit of cleanup work to do. And I just wanted to better understand what that means to you. Is that a function of nonaccruals, equity exposure, something else?

謝謝。實際上，對於 Brian 的問題，還有一個後續問題，即 Penn 和 PFLT 在合併後的汽車中是否更有意義。您提到有一些清理工作要做。我只是想更好地理解這對你意味著什麼。這是不提費用、股權風險還是其他因素的作用？

And I asked that because in the past, I know you've probably gotten that question a number of times over the years. In the past, you had referenced the multiple and the disparity between multiples on the two vehicles, and that seems to be less of an issue now. So appreciate any clarifying thoughts you have on that.

我之所以問這個問題，是因為我知道在過去這些年裡你可能已經被問過很多次了。過去，您曾提到兩輛車的倍數以及倍數之間的差異，但現在這似乎不再是什麼大問題了。因此非常感謝您對此提出的任何澄清想法。

Yes. And that could be -- it's all kind of maybe the same thing, Melissa, which is, I believe, if we can get some reasonable equity rotation, which will derisk the portfolio, derisk the NII that will be clean up, right? That will be the cleanup I'm referring to. And then we can take a look and evaluate different options.

是的。這可能是 — — 梅麗莎，這也許是同一件事，我相信，如果我們能夠進行一些合理的股權輪換，這將降低投資組合的風險，降低 NII 的風險，這樣就可以清理乾淨，對嗎？這就是我所指的清理。然後我們可以看看並評估不同的選擇。

Thank you.

謝謝。

That does conclude today's question-and-answer session. I'd like to turn the conference back over to Mr. Penn for any additional or closing comments.

今天的問答環節到此結束。我想將會議交還給佩恩先生，請他發表任何補充或結束語。

Just really want to thank everybody for their participation. I want to thank the research community for your excellent questions. It's good that there's engagement and some interest. And we look forward to speaking with you all again next in early May as we discuss the March numbers. Thank you very much. Have a good rest of the winter.

我真的想感謝大家的參與。我要感謝研究界提出的優秀問題。有參與和興趣是件好事。我們期待在五月初再次與大家交談，討論三月的數據。非常感謝。祝你有個愉快的冬天。

And once again, that does conclude today's conference. We thank you all for your participation. You may now disconnect.

今天的會議又結束了。我們感謝大家的參與。您現在可以斷開連線。