PropertyGuru Group Ltd (PGRU) 2023 Q3 法說會逐字稿

Thank you for standing by, and welcome to the PropertyGuru Group third-quarter 2023 earnings conference call. (Operator Instructions) As a reminder, today's program will be recorded. If anyone objects, please disconnect now.

感謝您的耐心等待，歡迎參加 PropertyGuru 集團 2023 年第三季財報電話會議。 （操作員說明） 提醒一下，今天的節目將會錄製。如果有人反對，請立即斷開連接。

Now let me introduce Nat Otis, VP of Investor Relations. Mr. Otis, please go ahead.

現在讓我介紹一下投資者關係副總裁 Nat Otis。奧蒂斯先生，請繼續。

Good morning and good evening. Welcome to PropertyGuru Group's third-quarter 2023 earnings conference call. On the call today are Hari Krishnan, CEO and Managing Director, and Joe Dische, CFO.

早安，晚上好。歡迎參加 PropertyGuru 集團 2023 年第三季財報電話會議。今天參加電話會議的有執行長兼董事總經理 Hari Krishnan 和財務長 Joe Dische。

Before we get started, a few reminders. Firstly, our results are available in the earnings release. It can be found in the Investors section of our website. Secondly, today's webcast is being recorded. Replay, along with a transcript, will also be available on the Investors section of our website. Thirdly, we'll be making forward-looking statements, including, but not limited to, statements regarding our future results and expectations for the business

在我們開始之前，有一些提醒。首先，我們的業績可在收益報告中找到。它可以在我們網站的投資者部分找到。其次，今天的網路直播正在錄製中。重播以及文字記錄也將在我們網站的投資者部分提供。第三，我們將做出前瞻性陳述，包括但不限於有關我們未來業績和業務預期的陳述

These statements are neither promises nor guarantees and involve risks and uncertainties that may cause actual results to vary materially. Please refer to our earnings release and SEC filings for more information regarding risk factors.

這些陳述既不是承諾也不是保證，並且涉及可能導致實際結果發生重大變化的風險和不確定性。有關風險因素的更多信息，請參閱我們的收益發布和 SEC 文件。

Forward-looking statements are based on current expectations, and the company is not obliged to update them except as required by law. Fourthly, this call also can't contain non-IFRS financial measures. For a reconciliation of non-IFRS financial measures to the most directly comparable IFRS metric, please see our earnings press release. Lastly, all dollar references are in Singapore dollars, unless otherwise stated.

前瞻性陳述基於當前的預期，除法律要求外，公司沒有義務更新它們。第四，這項呼籲也不能包含非國際財務報告準則的財務措施。有關非國際財務報告準則財務指標與最直接可比較的國際財務報告準則指標的調節，請參閱我們的收益新聞稿。最後，除非另有說明，所有美元參考均以新加坡元為單位。

With that, let me turn the call over to Hari.

接下來，讓我把電話轉給哈利。

Thank you for joining us today for our third-quarter 2023 earnings conference call. PropertyGuru has demonstrated resiliency with another period of double-digit revenue growth and the second consecutive quarter of robust double-digit adjusted EBITDA margins. This growth is a testament to our focused investments and effective execution against the backdrop of weakened consumer confidence and a slow property market in Vietnam and uncertain economic conditions in Malaysia.

感謝您今天參加我們的 2023 年第三季財報電話會議。 PropertyGuru 展現了韌性，營收再次實現兩位數成長，且調整後 EBITDA 利潤率連續第二季實現兩位數強勁。這一增長證明了在消費者信心減弱、越南房地產市場緩慢以及馬來西亞經濟狀況不確定的背景下，我們的重點投資和有效執行。

We recognize the challenges and uncertainties in predicting market trends. Our focus, however, remains on creating value for our consumers and customers and helping them make confident property decisions. We will continue to execute our operating strategy, delivering results that underscore the value of our business to all stakeholders and positioning ourselves to capitalize when markets stabilize.

我們認識到預測市場趨勢的挑戰和不確定性。然而，我們的重點仍然是為我們的消費者和客戶創造價值，並幫助他們做出自信的房產決策。我們將繼續執行我們的營運策略，向所有利害關係人提供向所有利害關係人強調我們業務價值的成果，並在市場穩定時做好資本化準備。

Let me walk you through some of the highlights from this quarter starting with our business in Singapore. In Singapore, we are seeing steady adoption of our new products, even as the demand for property moderates due to rising interest rates and cost of living challenges, which are impacting the speed of decision making for buyers.

讓我從我們在新加坡的業務開始向您介紹本季的一些亮點。在新加坡，我們看到我們的新產品正在穩步採用，儘管由於利率上升和生活成本挑戰而導致房地產需求放緩，這影響了買家的決策速度。

Our Singapore Demand Index showed a 14% decrease from the second quarter, while both supply and transaction activities remained consistent with the previous quarter. Continuing the trend observed over the past several quarters, construction and real estate services were the top performing subsectors in the Singapore economy in the third quarter, according to preliminary GDP results released by the Ministry of Trade and Industry last month.

我們的新加坡需求指數較第二季下降 14%，而供應和交易活動與上一季保持一致。根據貿易和工業部上個月發布的初步國內生產毛額結果，建築和房地產服務延續過去幾季的趨勢，成為新加坡經濟第三季表現最好的次產業。

The sustained level of construction activity is a positive indicator for the coming quarters. Finally, it is important to highlight that despite various cooling measures implemented by the government, the Singaporean property market has maintained its stability.

建築活動的持續水平是未來幾季的積極指標。最後，需要強調的是，儘管政府採取了各種降溫措施，新加坡房地產市場仍保持穩定。

In Malaysia, the quarter experienced a slowdown in consumer demand, primarily due to higher interest rates and a lack of healthy wage inflation. The Malaysian Sales Demand Index witnessed a 6% decline compared to the previous quarter, attributed to the highest interest rates since 2020. Interestingly, our Property Price Index still saw a 1.5% increase from the second quarter, even as more supply into the market. These factors collectively led to a reduction in consumer buying.

在馬來西亞，本季消費者需求放緩，主要是由於利率上升和缺乏健康的薪資通膨。由於2020年以來的最高利率，馬來西亞銷售需求指數較上一季下降6%。有趣的是，儘管市場供應增加，我們的房地產價格指數仍較第二季上漲1.5%。這些因素共同導致消費者購買量減少。

Additionally, Malaysia faced significant challenges from local currency depreciation. In response, the government is proactively exploring strategies to stimulate GDP growth to the 4% to 5% range in 2024 and mitigate further currency volatility.

此外，馬來西亞也面臨本國貨幣貶值的重大挑戰。為此，政府正在積極探索策略，以刺激 2024 年 GDP 成長至 4% 至 5%，並緩解貨幣進一步波動。

Despite these challenges, our optimism about Malaysia's long-term prospects remain strong due to the success of both the PropertyGuru and iProperty brands and the fundamental desire for housing in the country. We will continue to build out our suite of market-defining offerings and navigate near-term market issues.

儘管面臨這些挑戰，由於 PropertyGuru 和 iProperty 品牌的成功以及該國對住房的基本渴望，我們對馬來西亞的長期前景仍然保持強勁的樂觀態度。我們將持續打造市場定義產品套件並解決近期市場問題。

In Vietnam, the near-term outlook remains unchanged as the government's efforts to boost consumer confidence and stimulate the market are showing limited immediate impact. However, last week, the Vietnamese government highlighted the importance of lowering interest rates in 2024 to enhance credit accessibility for individuals and businesses alike.

在越南，近期前景保持不變，因為政府提振消費者信心和刺激市場的努力所產生的直接影響有限。然而，上週越南政府強調了 2024 年降低利率以增強個人和企業信貸可近性的重要性。

Additionally, the government is committed to focus resources to achieve GDP growth of 6% to 6.5% in 2024, while also keeping inflation in check. Early signs are encouraging as GDP growth did accelerate from Q2 to Q3 2023. At PropertyGuru, we are actively adapting our strategy for the Vietnam market in anticipation of these evolving conditions.

此外，政府致力於集中資源，在2024年實現GDP成長6%至6.5%，同時控制通膨。早期跡象令人鼓舞，2023 年第二季至第三季 GDP 成長確實加速。在 PropertyGuru，我們正在積極調整我們的越南市場策略，以應對這些不斷變化的情況。

Our recent initiatives include the appointment of a new country manager, restructuring the team and implementation of a sales transformation strategy. This strategy is designed to enhance customer service and drive revenue growth through innovative measures like dynamic pricing and reduced product discounting.

我們最近的舉措包括任命新的國家經理、重組團隊和實施銷售轉型策略。該策略旨在透過動態定價和減少產品折扣等創新措施來增強客戶服務並推動收入成長。

Lastly, it's important to recognize Vietnam's enduring long-term prospects. These include a youthful demographic, increasing urbanization, significant investments in infrastructure and an economy poised to benefit from the country's stature as an emerging alternative base for global manufacturing output. We navigate the changing economic landscape of Southeast Asia while continuously innovating and leveraging technology. This approach is designed to create value for our stakeholders and enhance operational efficiency.

最後，重要的是要認識到越南持久的長期前景。其中包括年輕化的人口結構、不斷加快的城市化進程、對基礎設施的大量投資以及準備從該國作為全球製造業產出的新興替代基地的​​地位中受益的經濟。我們在不斷創新和利用科技的同時，應對東南亞不斷變化的經濟格局。這種方法旨在為我們的利害關係人創造價值並提高營運效率。

Central to our strategy is the use of generative AI and machine learning. Internally, the adoption of GitHub Copilot by our engineering team has been remarkable, with over 95% of engineers at PropertyGuru actively utilizing Copilot to increase individual productivity and enhance code writing.

我們策略的核心是使用生成式人工智慧和機器學習。在內部，我們的工程團隊對 GitHub Copilot 的採用非常出色，PropertyGuru 超過 95% 的工程師積極利用 Copilot 來提高個人工作效率並增強程式碼編寫能力。

Last quarter, we introduced GuruPicks, a personalized feed of property listings that employs machine learning to constantly improve its algorithms. This quarter, we saw early benefits as consumer click-through rates significantly increased following further refinement of the algorithm relevancy. Furthermore, machine learning powers PropertyGuru's listing description generator, aiding agents and creating more effective property listings.

上個季度，我們推出了 GuruPicks，這是一個個人化的房產清單來源，它利用機器學習不斷改進其演算法。本季度，我們看到了早期的好處，隨著演算法相關性的進一步完善，消費者點擊率顯著提高。此外，機器學習為 PropertyGuru 的房源描述產生器提供支持，幫助代理商並創建更有效的房產房源。

We have also made advancements in lead management, introduced in Singapore last quarter. By the end of the third quarter, over 60% of active Singapore agents had engaged with lead management, with nearly half utilizing it for direct lead content.

我們在上個季度在新加坡推出的潛在客戶管理方面也取得了進展。截至第三季末，超過 60% 的活躍新加坡代理商參與了潛在客戶管理，其中近一半將其用於直接潛在客戶內容。

Moving to fintech, in July, we launched our in-principle approval or IPA service. We are now the first in the market to provide a solution that helps users with their digital mortgage pre-approval process. This self-serve product is bank agnostic and enables consumers to directly select their preferred bank, fill an application form online and upload the necessary forms and documents.

轉向金融科技，7 月，我們推出了原則批准或 IPA 服務。我們現在是市場上第一個提供幫助用戶完成數位抵押貸款預審批流程的解決方案的公司。這種自助服務產品與銀行無關，使消費者能夠直接選擇他們喜歡的銀行，在線填寫申請表並上傳必要的表格和文件。

Once finished, we complete a simple check before sending them to the financial institution. This is the type of smart digital experience that people are asking for. And as a testament to its value, since its launch, the IPA option has been chosen by 80% of online consumers on our mortgage platform, PropertyGuru Finance.

完成後，我們會完成簡單的檢查，然後將其發送給金融機構。這就是人們所要求的智慧數位體驗。作為其價值的證明，自推出以來，IPA 選項已被我們的抵押貸款平台 PropertyGuru Finance 上 80% 的線上消費者選擇。

In other exciting developments, our data and software solutions business has made significant strides. In September, we rolled out five modules in our agent CRM system, AgentNet, that combine transaction information and proprietary supply and demand data from DataSense. The modules are available to all Singaporean property agents as a part of their subscriptions and will help strengthen our agents' market intelligence capabilities as well as provide an additional upsell opportunity for PropertyGuru.

在其他令人興奮的發展中，我們的數據和軟體解決方案業務也取得了重大進展。 9 月份，我們在代理 CRM 系統 AgentNet 中推出了五個模組，這些模組結合了來自 DataSense 的交易資訊和專有供需資料。這些模組作為訂閱的一部分可供所有新加坡房地產經紀人使用，將有助於增強我們經紀人的市場情報能力，並為 PropertyGuru 提供額外的追加銷售機會。

Also in DataSense this quarter, we launched a foreign demand analytics module. This tool provides customers with detailed insights into property demand trends by country of origin. In effect, it helps agents more efficiently and effectively service foreign buyers, while also giving our developer, institutional investor and governmental customers a window into key marketplace trends.

同樣在本季的 DataSense 中，我們推出了國外需求分析模組。該工具為客戶提供了按原籍國劃分的房地產需求趨勢的詳細見解。實際上，它可以幫助代理商更有效率地為外國買家提供服務，同時也為我們的開發商、機構投資者和政府客戶提供了了解主要市場趨勢的窗口。

This quarter marks significant progress for our group, showcasing solid strides in various business segments, product launches and adoption, along with an increase in operating leverage and solid revenue growth. While we faced challenges in Vietnam and Malaysia, the overall performance this quarter has been encouraging, fueling our optimism for the future.

本季標誌著我們集團取得了重大進展，在各個業務領域、產品發布和採用方面都取得了堅實的進步，同時營運槓桿率有所提高，收入也穩健成長。雖然我們在越南和馬來西亞面臨挑戰，但本季的整體表現令人鼓舞，增強了我們對未來的樂觀態度。

Let me conclude by emphasizing our pride in resiliently navigating through variable market conditions, we are well positioned in what is expected to be one of the fastest growing regions over the next decade and beyond. We continue to believe in the fundamental opportunities in our core markets and are committed to future growth and profitability anchored around our vision to power communities to live, work and thrive in tomorrow's cities.

最後，我要強調，我們對能夠在多變的市場條件下靈活應對而感到自豪，我們在預計未來十年及以後發展最快的地區之一中處於有利地位。我們仍然相信我們核心市場的基本機遇，並致力於圍繞我們的願景實現未來的成長和盈利，即為社區在未來的城市中生活、工作和繁榮提供動力。

I will now hand the call over to Joe to walk you through our financials.

現在我將把電話轉給喬，讓他向您介紹我們的財務狀況。

Thanks, Hari. We're pleased with the results this quarter, as property grew, revenue grew 13% to SGD39 million despite challenging conditions in a number of our core markets. In addition to double-digit revenue growth and double-digit adjusted EBITDA margin, we were net income positive in the quarter as well as net cash flow positive year to date.

謝謝，哈里。我們對本季的業績感到滿意，儘管我們的許多核心市場面臨嚴峻的形勢，但隨著房地產業的成長，營收成長了 13%，達到 3,900 萬新元。除了兩位數的營收成長和兩位數的調整後 EBITDA 利潤率外，我們本季淨利潤為正，年初至今淨現金流為正。

Excluding Vietnam, which continues to face macro and consumer confidence headwinds, revenue was up a solid 23% from the third quarter of last year. While the top line was clearly a positive for us again this quarter, our leveraging of technology and automation as well as active cost management continues to deliver outstanding results as we look to consistently grow adjusted EBITDA.

不包括持續面臨宏觀和消費者信心不利因素的越南，第三季營收較去年第三季穩健成長 23%。雖然本季的營收顯然再次對我們有利，但我們利用技術和自動化以及主動成本管理繼續帶來出色的業績，因為我們希望不斷增長調整後的 EBITDA。

Our adjusted EBITDA grew to SGD5 million from SGD2 million in the prior year quarter, with our margin more than doubling from 6% to 13%. We are steadfast in our approach to profitable growth while navigating market uncertainty and will focus our investments and hire selectively with an eye to both current conditions and future opportunity.

我們調整後的 EBITDA 從去年同期的 200 萬新元增至 500 萬新元，利潤率從 6% 增加到 13%，翻了一倍多。我們堅定不移地實現獲利成長，同時應對市場的不確定性，並將著眼於當前狀況和未來機會，集中投資和選擇性招聘。

As a result, while expenses were up only 4% in the quarter, our [overall] revenue grew 13%, resulting in an incremental revenue to adjusted EBITDA conversion rate of almost 70%. I would also add that we had positive adjusted EBITDA in each one of our marketplaces this quarter, including Vietnam, underscoring the value we see in effectively balancing cost with revenue overall and in each of our core markets.

因此，雖然本季費用僅成長 4%，但我們的[整體]營收成長了 13%，導致增量收入與調整後 EBITDA 的轉換率接近 70%。我還想補充一點，本季我們在包括越南在內的每個市場都實現了正調整後的 EBITDA，這突顯了我們在有效平衡總體成本與收入以及每個核心市場中所看到的價值。

In Singapore, revenue was SGD23 million, up 24% from the prior year quarter, and our adjusted EBITDA increased to SGD17 million for 77% margin. Our agent base grew again this quarter, and we now have over 16,300 agents, with the customer renewal rate of 85%.

在新加坡，營收為 2,300 萬新元，比去年同期成長 24%，調整後的 EBITDA 增至 1,700 萬新元，利潤率為 77%。本季我們的代理商數量再次成長，目前擁有超過 16,300 名代理商，客戶續約率為 85%。

Our quarterly average revenue per agent or ARPA was up 23% from the prior year quarter to almost SGD1,300. In addition, reflecting the increased value our customers place in our products and services as well as greater adoption rates of new offerings, We had a record amount of prime credits purchased in the quarter. Prime credit is the most expensive credits we offer.

我們每個代理商或 ARPA 的季度平均營收比去年同期成長 23%，達到近 1,300 新元。此外，我們在本季購買的優質積分數量創歷史新高，這反映出客戶對我們的產品和服務的價值增加以及新產品採用率的提高。優質信貸是我們提供的最昂貴的信貸。

Also in the third quarter, we have the largest percentage of agents in our two highest subscription categories since our listing. The increased product adoption and good expense management helped us deliver another quarter of outstanding growth and adjusted EBITDA margin strength. In Malaysia, revenue was SGD7 million, up 5% from the prior year quarter, and our adjusted EBITDA increased from SGD4 million -- to SGD4 million from SGD3 million despite macro headwinds and currency fluctuations.

同樣在第三季度，自上市以來，我們在兩個最高訂閱類別中擁有最大比例的代理商。產品採用率的提高和良好的費用管理幫助我們在另一個季度實現了出色的成長和調整後的 EBITDA 利潤率。在馬來西亞，營收為 700 萬新元，比去年同期成長 5%，儘管存在宏觀阻力和貨幣波動，但我們調整後的 EBITDA 從 400 萬新元增加到 400 萬新元。

The Malaysian ringgit depreciated 7% year on year. So on a local currency basis, our revenue is actually up 11% in the quarter. As Hari mentioned, we anticipate proactive measures by the government, which will help alleviate these ForEx issues as we move into 2024. The adjusted EBITDA margin grew to 55% this quarter from 49% in the third quarter of 2022 as we continue to focus on improving adjusted EBITDA, even as we navigate market and currency headwinds.

馬來西亞林吉特較去年同期貶值7%。因此，以當地貨幣計算，我們本季的收入實際上增長了 11%。正如Hari 所提到的，我們預計政府將採取積極措施，這將有助於在進入2024 年時緩解這些外匯問題。調整後的EBITDA 利潤率從2022 年第三季的49% 增至本季度的55 %，因為我們繼續關注即使我們應對市場和貨幣逆風，調整後的 EBITDA 也會得到改善。

Consumer sentiment remains depressed in Vietnam following government anti-corruption activity and tightened credit to combat inflation, with revenue down 33% from the third quarter of 2022. Listing activity is the main driver, with the number of listings down 7% from the second quarter and 41% from the prior year quarter.

由於政府反貪腐和收緊信貸以對抗通膨，越南消費者信心依然低迷，收入較 2022 年第三季下降 33%。上市活動是主要推動力，上市數量較第二季下降 7%與去年同期相比成長41%。

A 16% year-on-year increase in our average revenue per listing on ARPL helped to partially offset the reduction in listings. Adjusted EBITDA was slightly positive in the quarter, giving us a 6% adjusted EBITDA margin.

ARPL 上每個房源的平均收入年增 16%，部分抵銷了房源數量的減少。本季調整後 EBITDA 略為正值，調整後 EBITDA 利潤率為 6%。

Finally, fintech and data services combined revenue was up 23% year on year and adjusted EBITDA was a loss of SGD2 million. These businesses are areas of sustained investment for us as we build out a suite of innovative data-driven products to help companies and individuals alike make confident property-related decisions while also making the mortgage application and financing process much more consumer friendly.

最後，金融科技和數據服務合計營收年增 23%，調整後 EBITDA 虧損 200 萬新元。這些業務是我們持續投資的領域，因為我們開發了一套創新的數據驅動產品，幫助公司和個人做出自信的房地產相關決策，同時使抵押貸款申請和融資流程對消費者更加友善。

We continue to be at the forefront of bringing market changing data and financial solutions to Southeast Asia and understand their future value in further transforming this region once macroeconomic headwinds subside.

我們繼續處於向東南亞提供不斷變化的市場數據和金融解決方案的最前沿，並了解一旦宏觀經濟逆風消退，這些數據和金融解決方案正在進一步改變該地區的未來價值。

On the balance sheet, we ended the quarter with SGD317 million in cash and a net cash flow positive for the first nine months of 2023. We are revising our full-year 2023 revenue new outlook to between SGD148 and SGD152 million, taking into account a slow recovery in Vietnam for the remainder of 2023 and macro uncertainty in Malaysia.

在資產負債表上，我們本季末的現金為3.17 億新元，2023 年前9 個月的淨現金流為正。我們正在將2023 年全年收入新展望調整為148 至1.52 億新元之間，考慮到越南在 2023 年剩餘時間內復甦緩慢，馬來西亞宏觀經濟存在不確定性。

However, we are maintaining our full-year 2023 adjusted EBITDA outlook of between SGD11 and SGD15 million as our cost control efforts continue to be very effective. We remain positive on our core Southeast Asian marketplaces and the prospects for near-term recovery in both Vietnam and Malaysia, as well as long-term property ownership demographics in Southeast Asia.

然而，由於我們的成本控制工作仍然非常有效，我們維持 2023 年全年調整後 EBITDA 前景在 11 至 1500 萬新元之間。我們對我們的核心東南亞市場以及越南和馬來西亞的近期復甦前景以及東南亞的長期房地產擁有人口統計數據保持樂觀。

In conclusion, despite challenging market conditions, we are pleased with our ability to deliver another quarter of double-digit growth and double-digit adjusted EBITDA margin. Our focused investments and targeted cost control efforts continue to yield measurable results.

總之，儘管市場條件充滿挑戰，但我們對能夠再實現一個季度兩位數成長和兩位數調整後 EBITDA 利潤率感到高興。我們集中的投資和有針對性的成本控制努力繼續產生可衡量的成果。

Longer term, we understand the importance of continuing to create innovative technology for property seekers and businesses, while leveraging automation, machine learning and prudent expense management to deliver these market-changing products with consistent growth and sustained improvement in adjusted EBITDA margin.

從長遠來看，我們了解繼續為房地產尋求者和企業創造創新技術的重要性，同時利用自動化、機器學習和審慎的費用管理來提供這些改變市場的產品，並實現調整後EBITDA 利潤率的持續增長和持續改善。

I would like to thank all our gurus by hard work and commitment to PropertyGuru and thank our customers for their ongoing support.

我要感謝所有大師的辛勤工作和對 PropertyGuru 的承諾，並感謝我們的客戶一直以來的支持。

I will now to turn the call over for questions. Operator, we're ready for our first question.

我現在將轉接電話詢問問題。接線員，我們準備好回答第一個問題了。

Okay. Thanks, Joe. (Operator Instructions)

好的。謝謝，喬。 （操作員說明）

Nick Jones, JMP Securities.

尼克瓊斯，JMP 證券。

Great. Thanks for taking the questions. Maybe to start with the updated top-line guidance, how should we think about the persistence -- some of these -- persistence of some of these industry or macro trends as we look into next year, we're counting, I guess excluding kind of a big decel in your growth, I guess how does that inform as to what the growth might look like next year? And then I have a follow-up on costs.

偉大的。感謝您提出問題。也許從更新的頂線指導開始，當我們展望明年時，我們應該如何考慮這些行業或宏觀趨勢的持久性——其中一些——持久性，我們正在計算，我想排除某種類型如果你的增長大幅放緩，我想這對明年的成長有什麼影響？然後我會對成本進行跟進。

Thanks, Nick. Listen, I think if I take each of our core markets in turn, I think the Singapore market -- in fact, we know the Singapore market continues to perform well, more and more supplies coming online. I referenced the growth in the construction and real estate services sectors. We're seeing the number of rental listings increase by as much as 11% quarter over quarter in Q3. So that's a good indication of the -- good amount of supply continuing to come online.

謝謝，尼克。聽著，我想，如果我依次考慮我們的每個核心市場，我認為是新加坡市場——事實上，我們知道新加坡市場繼續表現良好，越來越多的供應上線。我提到了建築和房地產服務業的成長。我們看到第三季的出租房屋數量較上季增加了 11%。因此，這是一個很好的跡象，表明大量供應仍在繼續。

Transactions have moderated, but keep in mind, they've moderated from a frothy high, which was very much demand -- driven by a supply constraint, if you recall. So I think overall, the Singapore market continues to look healthy. Decision times for consumers a little longer given economic conditions. That's understandable. But that's obviously good for a marketplace as people spend more time, they're doing their research, agency to compete more in such.

交易已經放緩，但請記住，它們已經從泡沫高點放緩，如果你還記得的話，這是由供應限制驅動的需求很大。因此，我認為總體而言，新加坡市場看起來仍然健康。考慮到經濟條件，消費者的決策時間會更長。這是可以理解的。但這顯然對市場有利，因為人們花更多的時間進行研究、代理在此類領域進行更多競爭。

So I think in the short term, no concerns. And actually even in the medium term, no concerns for Singapore. In Malaysia, as I mentioned, there's a bit of a disconnect happening there, where you're seeing more supply come online. But a lot of the supply that's coming online is new projects. And as a result, the asking prices tend to be pretty high, but they've already booked in the cost of the land, they try to market up. But in reality though, demand is dropping because affordability is challenged by the lack of wage inflation and price inflation, [like] that.

所以我認為短期內無需擔心。事實上，即使從中期來看，新加坡也不需要擔心。正如我所提到的，在馬來西亞，那裡發生了一些脫節，你會看到更多的供應上線。但上線的許多供應都是新項目。因此，要價往往相當高，但他們已經預訂了土地成本，他們試圖提高市場。但實際上，需求正在下降，因為支付能力受到薪資通膨和物價通膨缺乏的挑戰。

So I think there is a little bit of a short- to medium-term challenge in Malaysia. We will continue to navigate that. And we're obviously calibrating our investments accordingly. But obviously, market share is still very strong with both PropertyGuru and iProperty. We're in very high conviction in that market.

所以我認為馬來西亞存在一些中短期挑戰。我們將繼續解決這個問題。我們顯然正在相應地調整我們的投資。但顯然，PropertyGuru 和 iProperty 的市佔率仍然非常強勁。我們對這個市場充滿信心。

And then Vietnam, as both Joe and I referenced, it continues to be slow recovery in terms of consumer expectations. That's reflected in the outlook, and I'll let Joe sort of talk to that in a second. But I think what you are seeing is, when we look at GDP growth itself, it improved from about a little over 4% in Q2 to a little over 5% in Q3. The government's official line is somewhere between 6% to 6.5% growth next year. That will make it one of the fastest growing economies in the world.

然後，正如喬和我所提到的那樣，越南的消費者預期復甦仍然緩慢。這反映在前景中，我稍後會讓喬談談這一點。但我認為你看到的是，當我們觀察 GDP 成長本身時，它從第二季的 4% 多一點提高到了第三季的 5% 多一點。政府的官方預測是明年的經濟成長在 6% 至 6.5% 之間。這將使其成為世界上成長最快的經濟體之一。

So I think that is driven by the creation of jobs, urbanization, all of that. And so going back to the central thesis, they're going to have to fix that thing, they talk about interest rate cuts to increase the affordability and such. So -- but it's clearly not going to happen this year. We're projecting it's going to happen a little later into 2024. But maybe I'll kick it to Joe to see if there are certain parts of that question I didn't answer.

所以我認為這是由創造就業機會、城市化等等所推動的。因此，回到中心論點，他們將不得不解決這個問題，他們談論降息以提高負擔能力等等。所以——但今年顯然不會發生。我們預計這將在 2024 年晚些時候發生。但也許我會把這個問題交給 Joe，看看這個問題是否有某些部分我沒有回答。

Yeah. Thanks, Hari. Well, I think, just to look at revenue, I think broadly, we're pretty bullish about next year. I think we're going to see, as Hari mentioned, sort of market recovery where we've had some challenges and then continuing good performance where we've had some pretty solid performance this year. So we're feeling very positive.

是的。謝謝，哈里。嗯，我認為，就收入而言，我認為總體而言，我們對明年非常樂觀。我認為，正如哈利所提到的那樣，我們將看到市場復甦，我們遇到了一些挑戰，然後繼續保持良好的表現，今年我們取得了相當穩健的表現。所以我們感覺非常積極。

I think on the cost side, this quarter, and in fact, sort of this year so far, has seen really good conversion from incremental revenue into EBITDA, which I think is excellent. Business reacted well to a slightly more challenging environment. It has been a focused investments, selective hirings has been our sort of motto and we've done a very good job. And into next year, we would expect to see those margins grow again overall.

我認為在成本方面，本季度，事實上，今年到目前為止，已經看到從增量收入到 EBITDA 的良好轉化，我認為這非常好。企業對稍微更具挑戰性的環境反應良好。這是一項有針對性的投資，選擇性招募一直是我們的座右銘，我們做得非常好。到明年，我們預計這些利潤率將再次成長。

However, we will continue to invest in the early-stage businesses in data, in fintech, et cetera. So I think continued investment now, also focus on Thailand. But overall, you'll see improving leverage from the business in total and improving margins.

但我們會繼續投資數據、金融科技等早期業務。所以我認為現在繼續投資，也集中在泰國。但總體而言，您將看到企業整體槓桿率的提高和利潤率的提高。

Great. And maybe to follow up on the cost side, it's evidenced in the guide, you've been able to kind of preserve profitability to the extent that the macro industry conditions maybe worsen, philosophically, how are you thinking about investments, maybe in generative AI and machine learning, which is very hot topic today, particularly within the PropTech universe. How are you philosophically think about preserving margins and making these types of investments to build your competitive moat in the markets you're in?

偉大的。也許要在成本方面跟進，指南中已經證明，您已經能夠在宏觀行業狀況可能惡化的情況下保持盈利能力，從哲學上講，您如何考慮投資，也許是在生成人工智能方面和機器學習，這是當今非常熱門的話題，尤其是在房地產科技領域。您如何從哲學角度思考如何保持利潤並進行此類投資以在您所在的市場中建立競爭護城河？

I think it's a great question, Nick. The fact of the matter is we are going to continue investing in generative AI and machine learning. They're both in consumer products, as I referenced here, 95% of engineers are using GitHub Copilot using improving code quality, using improving product performance, improving engineering team productivity. So there's a financial element to it, of course as well.

我認為這是一個很好的問題，尼克。事實上，我們將繼續投資生成式人工智慧和機器學習。它們都在消費產品中，正如我在這裡提到的，95% 的工程師正在使用 GitHub Copilot 來提高程式碼品質、提高產品效能、提高工程團隊的生產力。當然，這也有財務因素。

But I think fundamentally though, we are in markets which are in high growth. This is an economic cycle that we're going through. This is not the first cycle that we have gone through. So this company and this business is familiar with knowing how to navigate these. So I think we will have calibrated based on that.

但我認為從根本上講，我們處於高速成長的市場。這是我們正在經歷的經濟週期。這不是我們經歷的第一個週期。因此，這家公司和這家企業熟悉如何駕馭這些。所以我認為我們將在此基礎上進行校準。

So to your point, if it were to get significantly worse for some reason, that we aren't seeing right now, then we will calibrate investments accordingly. But I think in those sectors, some of those investments take a longer time to see the benefit. And so we're not going to throttle investments in things like generative AI and machine learning.

因此，就您的觀點而言，如果由於某種原因而變得更加糟糕，而我們現在還沒有看到，那麼我們將相應地調整投資。但我認為在這些領域，其中一些投資需要更長的時間才能看到效益。因此，我們不會限制對生成人工智慧和機器學習等領域的投資。

Thanks, Hari. Thanks, Joe.

謝謝，哈里。謝謝，喬。

Thanks.

謝謝。

Thanks, guys.

多謝你們。

Nelson Cheung, Citi.

張納爾遜，花旗銀行。

Hi, Hari. Hi, Joe. Thanks for taking my questions and congrats on a solid quarter. So my first question is regarding the industry recovery into next year. So we just discussed different industry overheads and some signs of recovery. And I just wonder when would management expect to see these signs into next year. Is it coming early in first half or it will be likely take more time for the industry to digest those types in later part of the year? Thank you.

嗨，哈利。嗨，喬。感謝您回答我的問題，並祝賀本季表現穩定。所以我的第一個問題是關於明年的產業復甦。所以我們只是討論了不同的行業管理費用和一些復甦的跡象。我只是想知道管理層預計明年什麼時候才能看到這些跡象。它是在上半年提前到來還是行業可能需要更多時間在今年下半年消化這些類型？謝謝。

Thanks for the question. I think the real market that we're all looking at, and perhaps the central one you're referencing is Vietnam. And I think in Vietnam, we are talking closer to the middle of the year and into the second half of the year where we anticipate a full recovery in our trend line up. And we hope to see it sooner, but frankly, what we've seen through 2023 is we do expect that it'll take a little longer for that confidence to come back.

謝謝你的提問。我認為我們都在關注的真正市場，也許你提到的核心市場是越南。我認為在越南，我們正在討論接近年中和下半年的情況，我們預計趨勢線將全面復甦。我們希望能早點看到這一點，但坦白說，我們確實預計到 2023 年，這種信心需要更長的時間才能恢復。

It's encouraging to hear the government talk about dropping interest rates further. It's great to see actual GDP growth accelerate already in Q3. So that's very encouraging. And it's very much online -- sorry, in line with what they're projecting for 2024. So that's very encouraging.

聽到政府談論進一步降低利率令人鼓舞。很高興看到第三季實際 GDP 成長已經加速。所以這非常令人鼓舞。而且它很大程度上是在線的——抱歉，這與他們對 2024 年的預測一致。所以這是非常令人鼓舞的。

I think when it comes to Malaysia, good supply coming online is encouraging, but there is a price disconnection between the asking price and the willingness to pay for consumers. So I think that needs to be bridged. And that is a little bit harder to call, to be honest. It's a market that's healthy. It's not fundamentally broken. But there is a disconnection between supply and demand pricing for now.

我認為，就馬來西亞而言，網路上的良好供應令人鼓舞，但要價與消費者的支付意願之間存在價格脫節。所以我認為這需要彌合。老實說，這有點難稱呼。這是一個健康的市場。它並沒有從根本上被打破。但目前供需定價之間存在脫節。

And as I referenced, Singapore continues to be very healthy going into 2024. There is a slowdown in transactions, speed as well as transaction volume, that's evident. But you are seeing more rental listings coming online, more supply, more construction.

正如我所提到的，新加坡在進入 2024 年之前仍然非常健康。交易、速度和交易量都有所放緩，這是顯而易見的。但你會看到更多的出租清單出現在網路上，更多的供應，更多的建設。

So overall, when you look at the group overall -- and listen, it's going to be -- the world is going through an economic slowdown. So we are also subject to that. We do believe Southeast Asia being the younger economies, one of the highest growing regions in the world, it should recover faster. And we are calibrating our investments accordingly.

因此，總的來說，當你從整體上看——並且聽著，世界正在經歷經濟放緩。所以我們也受到這一點的約束。我們確實相信東南亞是年輕的經濟體，是世界上成長最快的地區之一，它應該會更快地復甦。我們正在相應地調整我們的投資。

But by having a strong controls on the cost measures, we have confidence that we can increase investment as we see some of those green shoots coming. So pretty high conviction that we can drive profitability in the short to medium term and then return to growth with profitability as the economy recovers.

但透過對成本措施進行強有力的控制，我們有信心增加投資，因為我們看到了一些新芽的出現。我們非常堅信，我們可以在中短期內提高獲利能力，然後隨著經濟復甦，以獲利能力恢復成長。

Sorry, just to add, I think, just on the Vietnam side, obviously, our business model is different there. So historically, what we've seen is when things have bounced back, you've seen a sort of -- because there's no subscriptions, you do see a bounce back in activity and therefore, revenue quite quickly as well. So we saw that during COVID, where the number of listings sort of between August in 2021 and December really sort of lifted by about four times. And that obviously directly impacted revenue. We saw a big bounce back.

抱歉，我想補充一點，在越南方面，顯然我們的商業模式是不同的。所以從歷史上看，我們看到的是，當事情反彈時，你會看到某種——因為沒有訂閱，你確實會看到活動的反彈，因此收入也會很快反彈。因此，我們看到在新冠疫情期間，2021 年 8 月至 12 月期間的掛牌數量確實增加了約四倍。這顯然直接影響了收入。我們看到了大幅反彈。

So I think it's always challenging in Vietnam because of the business model and as a downturn is impacted, unlike the other markets where there is subscriptions. But I think once that, to Hari's point, once it does turn and we start to get some confidence back in, you'll see revenue bounce back quickly also.

因此，我認為，由於商業模式和經濟低迷的影響，越南總是充滿挑戰，這與其他有訂閱的市場不同。但我認為，就哈里的觀點而言，一旦情況確實發生轉變，我們開始恢復一些信心，你也會看到收入迅速反彈。

Thank you. That's very helpful. And then my second question is regarding the competitive landscape. Just wondering, in addition to our leading market position in the Southeast Asian market, just wondering if you see any like potential effects from the new market entrants, especially some new [nice style] platform trying to penetrate into the Southeast Asian markets. So like -- what -- any potential competitive landscape that you are going to see into next year? Thank you.

謝謝。這非常有幫助。我的第二個問題是關於競爭格局。只是想知道，除了我們在東南亞市場的領先市場地位之外，只是想知道您是否看到新市場進入者的任何類似潛在影響，特別是一些試圖滲透到東南亞市場的新[漂亮風格]平台。那麼，明年你會看到什麼潛在的競爭格局呢？謝謝。

Yeah. And listen, I think the honest truth is we've been around for about 16 years and every year, there are new companies that enter the property sector. And there are some, unfortunately, who shut down. The pace of new entrants has slowed down, given economic conditions, et cetera. And I think also it's harder to secure financing in the venture space. So I think there has been a little bit of a slowdown in the short term.

是的。聽著，我認為誠實的事實是我們已經存在了大約 16 年，每年都有新公司進入房地產行業。不幸的是，有些人已經關閉了。考慮到經濟狀況等因素，新進入者的步伐已經放緩。我認為在創投領域獲得融資也更加困難。所以我認為短期內有一點放緩。

We do anticipate that as the economy recovers, more entrants will come, more innovative business models. We continue to track them to see if there's interesting opportunities there. As you might recall, we saw an interesting startup in an adjacency that is doing a work-in-home services in Sendhelper. And after partnering with them for a number of years, we obviously decided to acquire that business. So I think we continue to track some of these to see what's happening.

我們確實預計，隨著經濟復甦，將會有更多的進入者、更多創新的商業模式出現。我們繼續跟踪他們，看看那裡是否有有趣的機會。您可能還記得，我們​​在附近看到一家有趣的新創公司正在 Sendhelper 中提供在家工作服務。在與他們合作多年後，我們顯然決定收購這項業務。所以我認為我們會繼續追蹤其中的一些，看看發生了什麼。

But in terms of direct threats to our core marketplace businesses, right now, we don't see anything, but our strong investments in generative AI, in particular, and in the data business, are indications of us going deeper into the sector, deeper in our relationship with consumers and with customers to ensure that as generative AI becomes consistent with the experience that consumers have when it comes to discovery of everything, PropertyGuru would have made commensurate investments, and we'll be ready for that next wave of growth as well.

但就對我們核心市場業務的直接威脅而言，目前我們沒有看到任何威脅，但我們在生成人工智慧（特別是在數據業務）方面的大力投資表明我們將深入該領域，更深層次在我們與在消費者和客戶的關係中，以確保生成式人工智慧與消費者在發現一切時所擁有的體驗保持一致，PropertyGuru 會做出相應的投資，我們將為下一波成長做好準備。

So short term, not seeing any specific brands or names that are a big threat, but fully anticipate that there will continue to be interesting and innovative companies that enter this space.

短期來看，沒有看到任何特定的品牌或名稱構成巨大威脅，但充分預計將繼續有有趣和創新的公司進入這一領域。

Thank you. And then my last question is regarding the cash position. So with our rich cash position and positive cash flow generating ability, can management share your view on this of cash in the next year in terms of capital allocation, shareholder return and also investment?

謝謝。我的最後一個問題是關於現金狀況。那麼，憑藉我們豐富的現金狀況和正向的現金流產生能力，管理層能否分享一下您對明年現金在資本配置、股東回報和投資方面的看法？

Sure, yeah. Thanks for the question. As you're aware, entering towards most of the positive cash flows, the funds we have is there for M&A, which is what we -- the store we set out when we listed the business and raised the money. I think we've built a very strong Corp dev team. We have done a lot of work looking at potential acquisitions.

當然，是的。謝謝你的提問。如您所知，進入大部分正現金流時，我們擁有的資金用於併購，這就是我們在上市業務並籌集資金時設立的商店。我認為我們已經建立了一支非常強大的公司開發團隊。我們在尋找潛在收購方面做了很多工作。

Our focus is kind of where we play at the moment. So data, fintech, home services, with three sort of focus areas. I think the challenge we found is finding sort of more, I guess, developed businesses between the core markets we operate in. Our preference is to purchase larger businesses that are probably sort of easy to transact and offer greater returns. And we really find it quite challenging to find those non-core markets.

我們的重點是我們目前的比賽地點。數據、金融科技、家庭服務是三個重點領域。我認為我們發現的挑戰是在我們經營的核心市場之間尋找更多發達的業務。我們的偏好是購買可能易於交易並提供更大回報的大型企業。我們確實發現尋找那些非核心市場非常具有挑戰性。

So we are broadening our search, as we've said before, and looking more widely across the region in those areas and the like. Now it's been interesting and I think we found a number of interesting opportunities and we'll obviously report back to the market should any of those proceed.

因此，正如我們之前所說，我們正在擴大我們的搜尋範圍，並在這些領域等領域進行更廣泛的研究。現在這很有趣，我認為我們發現了許多有趣的機會，如果其中任何一個繼續進行，我們顯然會向市場報告。

I mean, I would also add that pricing has been challenging. People in the private markets are still sort of perhaps behind the public markets in terms of the valuation sort of changes. But that's certainly sort of moderating now and we're starting see some more alignment, which obviously makes it much easier to sort of perform a transaction.

我的意思是，我還要補充一點，定價一直具有挑戰性。就估值變化而言，私募市場的人們可能仍然落後於公開市場。但現在這肯定是一種緩和，我們開始看到更多的一致性，這顯然使得執行交易變得更加容易。

Okay. Thanks, Hari, Joe. I'll go back to the queue. Thank you.

好的。謝謝，哈里，喬。我會回到隊列中。謝謝。

(Operator Instructions)

（操作員說明）

Okay, seeing no more questions, we'll hand it back to Hari to finish.

好的，看不到更多問題了，我們將把它交回給 Hari 來完成。

Okay. I'd like to thank everyone for joining us for this conference call, and we look forward to speaking to you again soon in another quarter. Thank you so much. Bye-bye.

好的。我要感謝大家參加本次電話會議，我們期待很快在下一個季度再次與您交談。太感謝了。再見。