Nu Holdings Ltd (NU) 2021 Q4 法說會逐字稿

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to the Nu Holdings conference call to discuss the results for the fourth quarter 2021. A slide presentation is accompanying today's webcast, which is available in the Nu's Investors Relations website, www.investors.nu in English and www.investidores.nu in Portuguese. This conference is being recorded, and the replay can also be accessed on the company's IR website.

女士們，先生們，下午好！歡迎參加 Nu Holdings 電話會議，討論 2021 年第四季業績。今天的網路直播附有幻燈片演示，可在 Nu 投資者關係網站 www.investors.nu（英文版）和 www.investidores.nu（葡萄牙語版）上觀看。本次會議已錄製，重播也可在公司投資者關係網站上觀看。

This call is also available in Portuguese. To access, you can press the icon on the lower right side of your Zoom screen and then choose to enter Portuguese room. After that, select "mute original audio."

此通話也提供葡萄牙語版本。要訪問，您可以點擊 Zoom 螢幕右下角的圖標，然後選擇進入葡萄牙語聊天室。之後，選擇“靜音原始音訊”。

(foreign language) (Operator Instructions) I would now like to turn the floor over to Mr. Federico Sandler, Investor Relations Officer at Nu Holdings. You may proceed.

（外語）（操作員指示）現在，我想將發言權交給 Nu Holdings 投資者關係官 Federico Sandler 先生。您可以繼續發言了。

Thank you very much, operator. Good afternoon everyone and thank you for joining our earnings call today. If you have not seen our earnings release, a copy is posted in the Results Center section of our investor relations website.

非常感謝接線生。大家下午好，感謝您參加今天的財報電話會議。如果您還沒有看到我們的財報，可以在我們投資者關係網站的「結果中心」板塊查看。

With me on today's call are David Velez, our Founder, Chief Executive Officer and Chairman; Guilherme Lago, our Chief Financial Officer; and Youssef Lahrech, our Chief Operating Officer. Additionally, Jag Duggal, our Chief Product Officer, will be joining us for the Q&A section of the call.

和我一起參加今天電話會議的還有我們的創辦人、執行長兼董事長 David Velez、財務長 Guilherme Lago 以及營運長 Youssef Lahrech。此外，我們的首席產品長 Jag Duggal 也將參加電話會議的問答環節。

Throughout this conference call, the company will be presenting non-IFRS financial information, including adjusted net income. These are important financial measures for the company but are non-financial metrics as defined by IFRS. Reconciliations of the company's non-IFRS financial information to the IFRS financial information are available in our earnings press release.

在整個電話會議期間，本公司將提供非國際財務報告準則 (IFRS) 財務信息，包括調整後淨利潤。這些是公司的重要財務指標，但根據國際財務報告準則 (IFRS) 的定義，它們屬於非財務指標。本公司非國際財務報告準則 (IFRS) 財務資訊與國際財務報告準則 (IFRS) 財務資訊的對帳表可在我們的收益新聞稿中查閱。

Finally, before we begin our formal remarks, I would like to remind everyone that today's discussion might include forward-looking statements. These forward-looking statements are not guarantees of future performance and therefore you should not put undue reliance on them. These statements are subject to numerous risks and uncertainties that could cause actual results to differ materially from the company's expectations. Please refer to the forward-looking statements disclosure in the Company's earnings press release.

最後，在我們開始正式發言之前，我想提醒大家，今天的討論可能包含前瞻性陳述。這些前瞻性陳述並非對未來績效的保證，因此您不應過度依賴它們。這些陳述受諸多風險和不確定因素的影響，可能導致實際結果與公司預期有重大差異。請參閱公司收益新聞稿中所揭露的前瞻性陳述。

Now I would now like to turn the call over to David Velez, our Founder and CEO.

現在我想將電話轉給我們的創辦人兼執行長 David Velez。

Thank you, Fede, and thank you all of you for joining us today. This is our first earnings call as a public company and the first time we speak directly with a number of investors. We very much welcome this opportunity and look forward to a transparent and constructive dialogue with all of you over many years to come.

謝謝Fede，也謝謝各位今天的到來。這是我們作為上市公司的首次財報電話會議，也是我們第一次與許多投資者直接對話。我們非常歡迎這次機會，並期待在未來的歲月裡與大家進行透明且建設性的對話。

While today we will be discussing a strong quarter with important improvements across key metrics, many of you on this call may be new to our story. So I would like to take this opportunity to talk a little bit more about Nu, including our values and mission, our growth strategy and our powerful ecosystem. Subsequently, Guilherme Lago, our CFO, and Youssef Lahrech, our COO, will take you through our performance in Q4 2021, After which time we'll be happy to answer your questions.

雖然今天我們將討論一個強勁的季度，關鍵指標都有顯著提升，但參加電話會議的各位可能還不熟悉我們的故事。因此，我想藉此機會進一步介紹 Nu，包括我們的價值觀和使命、我們的成長策略以及我們強大的生態系統。接下來，我們的財務長 Guilherme Lago 和營運長 Youssef Lahrech 將為您介紹我們在 2021 年第四季的業績。之後，我們很樂意解答您的問題。

So let me start by telling you about our IPO process. Nu was born with the mission to fight complexity to empower people. And we have been doing so relentlessly in Latin America since we were founded in 2013. However, how we accomplish our mission is just as important as accomplishing the mission itself. Our IPO was no exception.

首先，我想先介紹一下我們的IPO流程。 Nu的使命是克服複雜性，賦能人們。自2013年成立以來，我們一直在拉丁美洲堅持不懈地實踐這項使命。然而，如何完成使命與使命本身同樣重要。我們的IPO也不例外。

We certainly wanted to accomplish a very successful equity offering, raising approximately $2.8 billion, but we wanted to do so in a way that was aligned with our core values. Aligned with our value of always putting our customers first and working backwards from there. And aligned with our value of challenging the status quo.

我們當然希望完成一次非常成功的股票發行，籌集約28億美元，但我們希望以符合我們核心價值的方式實現這一目標。符合我們始終將客戶放在第一位並以此為起點進行改進的價值觀。也符合我們挑戰現狀的價值觀。

How have we accomplished these goals in our IPO? First, we decided that we needed to allow all of our customers to participate in it, irrespective of the then prevailing conventional wisdom that a public equity offering targeted at Brazilian retail investors was both unnecessary and inconvenient. We structured our IPO as a concurrent dual-listing in both Brazil and the U.S., allowing for all of our Brazilian retail customers to invest in Nu. It was the first such dual-listing in the history of the country.

我們是如何在IPO中實現這些目標的？首先，我們決定讓所有客戶都能參與，這與當時盛行的傳統觀點相悖，即針對巴西散戶投資者的公開發行股票既不必要又不方便。我們將IPO設計為在巴西和美國同時上市，讓所有巴西散戶客戶投資Nu。這是巴西史上首次在巴西和美國同時上市。

Second, we decided to honor the trust placed in us since our earliest days by gifting a piece of the company in the form of 1 Brazilian Depository Receipt, a BDR, each to millions of our customers in Brazil. More than 7.5 million customers joined this program, which will help multiply the number of Brazilians financially included in the investment world. It was the largest Directed Share Program, DSP, ever made globally. And the innovation in capital markets did not stop there. We also offered shares to our customers in Brazil, where over 800,000 made a paid reservation. This represented the largest number of retail investors to participate in a Brazilian IPO ever.

其次，為了回饋自成立開始就給予我們的信任，我們決定以每份巴西存託憑證（BDR）的形式，將公司股份贈予數百萬巴西客戶。超過750萬客戶加入了該計劃，這將幫助更多巴西人參與投資領域。這是全球有史以來規模最大的定向增發計畫（DSP）。而資本市場的創新遠不止於此。我們也向巴西客戶發售了股票，超過80萬人進行了付費預訂。這是巴西IPO史上參與散戶人數最多的一次。

The IPO marked the beginning of another chapter as we mature as a company, and most importantly, it will enable us to expand, deepen and strengthen our relationships with our customers. We could not be more excited with the opportunities ahead of us. We will continue to pursue these opportunities relentlessly. And we will continue to assess these opportunities based on their potential to accrue value to Nu and its shareholders in the long term.

此次IPO標誌著我們公司邁向成熟，開啟了新的篇章。更重要的是，它將使我們能夠拓展、深化並鞏固與客戶的關係。我們對未來的機會感到無比興奮。我們將繼續不懈地把握這些機會，並將繼續評估這些機會，看看它們能否為Nu及其股東帶來長期價值。

We are and will continue to be long-term focused and, if needed, will put the long-term interests of the company ahead of short-term results. Since the very beginning, we have seen ourselves as a technology company that happens to be in financial services, and not a bank that has a better website or a better app.

我們目前並將繼續專注於長遠發展，並在必要時將公司的長期利益置於短期業績之上。從一開始，我們就將自己定位為一家恰好從事金融服務的科技公司，而不是一家擁有更好網站或更好應用程式的銀行。

Our strategy is focused on 4 main differentiating pillars. We have a mission-driven culture. We are on a mission to drive much more inclusion, competition and efficiency into financial services in Latin America. Number 2, we are a customer-obsessed company and spend a lot of time understanding customer pain points, then working backwards to build phenomenal user experiences.

我們的策略聚焦於四大差異化支柱。首先，我們擁有使命驅動的文化。我們的使命是推動拉丁美洲金融服務的包容性、競爭力和效率的提升。其次，我們是一家以客戶為中心的公司，投入大量時間了解客戶痛點，並以此為切入點，打造卓越的使用者體驗。

Number 3, we are a technology company at heart. We build our own technology, including our proprietary core banking system, using our own programming language, and that ultimately gives us the ability to control our destiny, continuing to scale our platform with lower and lower costs and much more efficiency. And finally, since the beginning, we have been an AI and machine learning first company.

第三，我們本質上就是一家科技公司。我們使用自己的程式語言來建構自己的技術，包括專有的核心銀行系統，這最終賦予我們掌控自身命運的能力，讓我們能夠以更低的成本和更高的效率不斷擴展平台。最後，從一開始，我們就是一家以人工智慧和機器學習為先的公司。

We initially applied these technologies to a very large market, unsecured credit in Latin America, and now we have applied these capabilities to different areas of the company. We have always thought that strong competitive advantages in data science, machine learning and AI were going to be relevant competitive moats, and we believe we maintain an edge on these fronts.

我們最初將這些技術應用於拉丁美洲一個非常龐大的無擔保信貸市場，現在我們將這些能力應用到公司的不同領域。我們一直認為，在數據科學、機器學習和人工智慧領域的強大競爭優勢將成為重要的競爭護城河，我們相信我們在這些方面保持優勢。

These all translate into unique customer experiences that are simple, convenient, low cost and empowering. We have built one of the largest digital banking platforms in the world with nearly 54 million customers in Brazil, Colombia and Mexico, and are still growing at a pace of about 2 million new customers per month.

這些都轉化為獨特的客戶體驗，簡單、便利、低成本且賦能。我們已打造全球最大的數位銀行平台之一，在巴西、哥倫比亞和墨西哥擁有近5,400萬客戶，並且仍以每月約200萬新客戶的速度成長。

I would draw your attention to 3 things in the chart on this slide. First, Nu started with a credit-first approach, beginning with credit cards. Starting with credit is hard. It requires you to develop proprietary credit underwriting capabilities, a state-of-the-art data platform and local currency funding. But we believe it was a worthwhile path to take. Consumer credit is where 70%-plus of the profit pool of the industry is. Since the launch of our company in 2013, we have navigated extremely difficult macroeconomic environments, including the largest recession in Brazil's history and a pandemic. All of this has forced us to develop robust risk systems and a generally conservative underwriting approach.

我想提請大家注意這張投影片圖表中的三點。首先，Nu 採取了「信用優先」的策略，從信用卡開始。從信用卡開始很難。它需要你開發專有的信用承保能力、最先進的數據平台和本地貨幣融資。但我們相信這是一條值得走的路。消費信貸佔了該產業 70% 以上的利潤。自 2013 年公司成立以來，我們經歷了極為艱難的宏觀經濟環境，包括巴西史上最大的經濟衰退和一場疫情。所有這些都迫使我們建立了強大的風險系統和整體上保守的承保策略。

Second, most of our customers come to Nu organically, through word-of-mouth, allowing us to scale very fast, while having one of the lowest customer acquisition costs in the industry. This is a testament of the unique customer experiences we deliver. Our NPS is in the 90s, which we think is among the highest, if not the highest, in the financial services industry globally.

其次，我們的大多數客戶都是透過口耳相傳自然地選擇 Nu 的，這讓我們能夠快速擴張，同時擁有業內最低的客戶獲取成本之一。這充分證明了我們獨特的客戶體驗。我們的淨推薦值 (NPS) 在 90 多分，我們認為這在全球金融服務業中即使不是最高，也名列前茅。

And third, over 5 million of our customers did not have a bank account or a credit card when they became our customers. This shows that we are helping grow the size of the market and we are just not simply gaining market share from incumbent players.

第三，超過500萬客戶在成為我們的客戶時並沒有銀行帳戶或信用卡。這表明我們正在幫助擴大市場規模，而不僅僅是從現有企業手中搶奪市場份額。

We think about our business model as a two-part ecosystem. On one end, there are 52 million plus consumers in Brazil, Colombia and Mexico. And on the other end, there is 1 million plus small businesses, or SMEs. Our products serve both parts of this ecosystem and are composed of proprietary solutions that we build in house such as our credit cards, our personal loans, our mobile payment platforms; and also third-party solutions provided by first-class product partners such as our insurance, secured loan, e-commerce and digital products and services.

我們將我們的商業模式視為一個由兩部分組成的生態系統。一方面，巴西、哥倫比亞和墨西哥擁有超過5,200萬消費者；另一方面，擁有超過100萬家中小企業。我們的產品服務於這個生態系統的兩個部分，既包括我們自主研發的專有解決方案，例如信用卡、個人貸款和行動支付平台；也包括由一流產品合作夥伴提供的第三方解決方案，例如保險、抵押貸款、電子商務以及數位產品和服務。

We expect that these solutions, both products and services, will expand fast while the 2 sides of the ecosystem continue to grow in both size and engagement. And we are moving fast on that front. We enhanced our marketplace initiative as we expanded our platform through strategic partnerships. We are pleased to report that we ended the year with over 20 partners across 9 different verticals.

我們預計，這些解決方案（包括產品和服務）將快速擴張，同時生態系統的規模和參與度也將持續成長。我們正在這方面快速推進。我們透過策略合作夥伴關係擴展了平台，並增強了市場計劃。我們很高興地宣布，截至目前，我們在9個不同垂直領域擁有超過20個合作夥伴。

During the fourth quarter, we onboarded large financial services and non-financial services players including Magalu, Creditas, Via Varejo and Shopee. We are also reaching important milestones in our international expansion. Our Nu model has proven to be exportable, as we continue to beat our most optimistic forecasts in our Nu geographies.

第四季度，我們引進了包括 Magalu、Creditas、Via Varejo 和 Shopee 在內的大型金融服務和非金融服務公司。我們的國際擴張也取得了重要的里程碑。事實證明，我們的 Nu 模式具有良好的可拓展性，我們在 Nu 地區的業績持續超越了我們最樂觀的預測。

In Mexico, we ended Q4 2021 with 1.4 million customers, over 7 million applicants and a record-high NPS of over 90. We believe we have already become the largest new credit card issuer in Mexico at this time.

在墨西哥，截至 2021 年第四季度，我們擁有 140 萬名客戶、超過 700 萬名申請人，NPS 創下 90 以上的新高。我們相信，我們目前已經成為墨西哥最大的新信用卡發行商。

In Colombia, the third country that is part of our international expansion today, the results are equally encouraging, as we have learned to launch in a new country more effectively and efficiently over time.

哥倫比亞是我們今天國際擴張的第三個國家，結果同樣令人鼓舞，因為我們學會了隨著時間的推移更有效、更有效率地在新的國家開展業務。

Nu has many different growth vectors to fuel its expansion over the coming decade, from continuing to grow our customer base, to offering new products, to geographic expansion. And we are in the very early innings of this journey.

Nu 擁有多種成長路徑，協助其未來十年的擴張，從持續擴大客戶群，到推出新產品，再到地理擴張。而我們正處於這段征程的初期階段。

There is also a significant opportunity to further monetize our customer base. This will happen through both additional upsell as well as cross-sell initiatives, including proprietary and third-party products. And this monetization will be realized using a low-cost operating platform, highlighting the operating leverage of our business model.

我們的客戶群也擁有進一步獲利的巨大機會。這將透過額外的追加銷售和交叉銷售來實現，包括自有產品和第三方產品。這種獲利將透過低成本營運平台實現，凸顯我們商業模式的營運槓桿作用。

Now I'd like to turn the call over to Guilherme Lago, our CFO, and Youssef Lahrech, our COO, who will review our performance in the fourth quarter of 2021 in more detail. Thank you.

現在，我想將電話會議交給我們的財務長 Guilherme Lago 和營運長 Youssef Lahrech，他們將更詳細地回顧我們 2021 年第四季的業績。謝謝。

Thank you, David. In the fourth quarter and the full year of 2021, we delivered a very strong set of operating and financial KPIs. We did so by leveraging our simple, yet powerful, value generation formula. First, continuing to grow our base of active customers in Brazil, Mexico and Colombia; second, continuing to increase the monetization of our customer base by expanding the average revenue per active customer, or ARPAC, as we introduce more products and features, and our customer cohorts mature; and third, delivering all this growth while maintaining one of the lowest-cost operating platforms in the industry.

謝謝你，David。在2021年第四季和全年，我們實現了一系列非常強勁的營運和財務KPI。這得歸功於我們簡單而強大的價值創造公式。首先，我們繼續擴大在巴西、墨西哥和哥倫比亞的活躍客戶群；其次，隨著我們推出更多產品和功能以及客戶群的成熟，我們透過擴大每位活躍客戶平均收入（ARPAC）來繼續提高客戶群的貨幣化；第三，我們在實現所有這些增長的同時，保持了業內成本最低的運營平台之一的地位。

We believe that Nu has very high operating leverage potential driven by deep cost advantages across the 4 traditional cost pillars of financial services: low customer acquisition cost, low cost to serve, low cost of risk and low cost of funding. These cost advantages are expected to deepen as our ecosystem expands.

我們相信，Nu 擁有極高的營運槓桿潛力，這得益於其在金融服務四大傳統成本支柱（低客戶獲取成本、低服務成本、低風險成本和低融資成本）方面的巨大成本優勢。隨著我們生態系統的擴展，這些成本優勢預計將進一步增強。

Now let’s take a deep dive into the quarterly results of our business. During the fourth quarter of 2021, we added almost 6 million customers, mostly coming through organic channels and representing over 60% year-over-year growth. More importantly, this growth has not come at the expense of customer engagement, on the contrary. Our monthly activity rate grew from 66% in the fourth quarter of 2020 to 76% in the fourth quarter of 2021, all this while we added over 20 million customers to our base in the period.

現在，讓我們深入了解我們業務的季度業績。 2021年第四季度，我們新增了近600萬名客戶，其中大部分來自自然成長通路，較去年同期成長超過60%。更重要的是，這種成長並沒有以犧牲客戶參與度為代價，恰恰相反。我們的月活躍率從2020年第四季的66%成長到2021年第四季的76%，同時，我們的客戶群也在此期間新增了超過2,000萬人。

We are not in the business of just collecting social security numbers. We are in the business of becoming the primary banking relationship of our customers, both consumers and SMEs. As you can see from the 3 charts on this slide, the compounding effect of higher engagement in our customer base with more products and features in our ecosystem has proven powerful. It has driven the monetization of our customer base, as reflected in the expansion of the average revenue per active customer, or ARPAC.

我們的業務不僅僅是收集社保號碼。我們的業務是成為客戶（包括消費者和中小企業）的主要銀行關係。正如這張投影片上的三張圖表所示，客戶群參與度的提高，加上我們生態系統中產品和功能的增多，產生了強大的複合效應。這推動了我們客戶群的貨幣化，這體現在每位活躍客戶平均收入（ARPAC）的成長。

During the fourth quarter, we continued to achieve ARPAC expansion. Our average ARPAC reached $5.6 per month in the period. But the ARPAC of our more mature cohorts already exceeded $15 per month. We expect this trend to continue as customer cohorts continue to mature and we add new products and features to our ecosystem. The combination of more customers -- more active customers and higher ARPAC enables us to grow revenue at triple-digit rates.

在第四季度，我們的ARPAC持續成長。期內，我們的平均ARPAC達到了每月5.6美元。但我們更成熟客戶群的ARPAC已經超過每月15美元。隨著客戶群的不斷成熟以及我們為生態系統添加新產品和新功能，我們預計這一趨勢將持續下去。更多客戶－更多活躍客戶和更高的ARPAC結合，使我們的收入能夠以三位數的速度成長。

In the fourth quarter of 2021, our revenue reached $636 million, increasing year-over-year by 224% on an FX neutral basis, mainly driven by the increase in transaction volumes and strong growth in our interest-earning portfolio.

2021 年第四季度，我們的營收達到 6.36 億美元，以外匯中性計算年增 224%，主要得益於交易量的成長和生息投資組合的強勁成長。

Let's move on to purchase volume, a key KPI to track and understand the progress of our cards business over time. During the fourth quarter of 2021, purchase volume reached $14 billion, growing almost 100% year-over-year on an FX neutral Basis. The strong evolution in purchase volumes during the quarter is a result of a growing and engaged user base, the continued maturation of our cohorts and the increase in usage across our product portfolio that includes credit card, prepaid cards, secured cards and the premium ultraviolet cards.

接下來我們來看看購買量，這是一個關鍵的KPI，用於追蹤和了解我們信用卡業務的長期發展。 2021年第四季，購買量達140億美元，以匯率中立計算，較去年同期成長近100%。本季購買量的強勁成長得益於用戶群的不斷增長和參與度的提升、用戶群體的持續成熟，以及包括信用卡、預付卡、擔保卡和高端紫外線卡在內的產品組合使用量的提升。

Let’s have a look at our credit portfolio, another key driver of our revenue growth. During the fourth quarter of 2021, we continued to post above-market growth rates in our core consumer finance products, credit card and personal loans. In the 3 months ended December 2021, our credit card receivables portfolio grew by 21% quarter-over-quarter and 78% year-over-year, both on an FX neutral basis. We estimate we outpaced the market in Brazil by 2 times.

讓我們來看看我們的信貸組合，這是我們收入成長的另一個關鍵驅動力。在2021年第四季度，我們的核心消費金融產品、信用卡和個人貸款持續維持高於市場的成長率。在截至2021年12月的三個月中，我們的信用卡應收帳款組合季增21%，年增78%，均以匯率中立為基礎。我們估計，我們的成長速度是巴西市場的兩倍。

Also during the fourth quarter, our personal loan portfolio grew by 58% quarter-over-quarter and 7x year-over-year, both on an FX neutral basis. We estimate our market share, in terms of personal loan portfolio, expanded from less than 1% in December 2020 to approximately 4% in December 2021. But I would like to point out that we are still in the very early days in personal loans.

此外，在第四季度，我們的個人貸款組合較上季成長58%，年增7倍（皆基於匯率中性數據）。我們估計，就個人貸款組合而言，我們的市佔率已從2020年12月的不到1%成長至2021年12月的約4%。但我想指出的是，我們在個人貸款領域仍處於起步階段。

Now let’s take a look at our deposits base, which continues to attract very strong net inflows. One of the key pillars of our business model is that we continue to fund our operations primarily with local currency retail deposits. We believe that having local currency retail deposits at competitive rates is key to funding a consumer credit business at scale and superior to other sources of funding such as wholesale funding and securitization. As we continue to witness the strong trend in people and SMEs shifting from branch-based banking to digital-based banking, our deposits franchise continue to grow at very steady pace.

現在，我們來看看我們的存款基礎，它持續吸引著強勁的淨流入。我們業務模式的關鍵支柱之一是，我們繼續主要透過本幣零售存款為我們的營運提供資金。我們認為，以具競爭力的利率持有本幣零售存款是大規模開展消費信貸業務的關鍵，且優於批發融資和證券化等其他融資來源。隨著我們持續見證個人和中小企業從網點銀行轉向數位銀行的強勁趨勢，我們的存款業務繼續以非常穩定的速度成長。

As of the fourth quarter of 2021, our deposits reached almost $10 billion, a year-over-year growth rate of 87% on an FX neutral basis, with an average funding cost that is lower than that of the risk-free rate in Brazil, or CDI. Additionally, given the growth in our deposits franchise, we can comfortably cover our interest-earning portfolio with retail deposits.

截至2021年第四季度，我們的存款總額已接近100億美元，以匯率中立計算，較去年同期成長87%，平均融資成本低於巴西無風險利率（CDI）。此外，鑑於我們存款業務的成長，我們能夠輕鬆地用零售存款覆蓋我們的生息投資組合。

Moving on, let’s take a look at our cost to serve per active customer, a key pillar to appreciate the operating leverage of our business model. This metric has decreased over 20% year-on-year as we gain operational efficiency resulting from our increasing customer base. It is a guidepost that gives us the confidence that we are on the right track in the pursuit of strong operating leverage, as we continue to see our ARPAC outpacing cost to serve per active customer.

接下來，讓我們來看看每活躍客戶服務成本 (ARPAC)，這是衡量我們商業模式營運槓桿的關鍵指標。隨著客戶群的擴大，營運效率也隨之提升，該指標較去年同期下降了 20% 以上。隨著我們持續看到每活躍客戶服務成本 (ARPAC) 的成長速度超過每活躍客戶服務成本，這項指標讓我們更有信心，在追求強勁營運槓桿的道路上走在正確的道路上。

In the fourth quarter of 2021 and in the full year of 2021, we posted record gross profits of $227 million and $733 million, respectively. While gross profit margins remained stable for the full year, we saw lower gross margins in the last quarters of 2021, as a result of the very strong growth in our interest-earning portfolio in these periods and our loan loss provisioning methodology that front-loads the recognition of provisioning under IFRS.

2021年第四季和2021年全年，我們的毛利分別創下2.27億美元和7.33億美元的新高。儘管全年毛利率保持穩定，但2021年最後幾季的毛利率有所下降，原因是我們生息資產組合在此期間增長強勁，且我們採用的貸款損失撥備方法將國際財務報告準則下的撥備確認提前。

Moving on to adjusted net income, let me quickly walk you through the adjustments we made to GAAP net income to arrive at this metric in order to give you a better sense of the recurring profitability of our business, as we define adjusted net income as profit allocated to our shareholders, adjusted for expenses related to share-based compensation and our IPO, as well as the tax effects applicable to these items.

談到調整後的淨收入，讓我快速向您介紹一下我們對 GAAP 淨收入所做的調整，以得出這一指標，以便讓您更好地了解我們業務的經常性盈利能力，因為我們將調整後的淨收入定義為分配給股東的利潤，並根據與股權激勵和 IPO 相關的費用進行調整，以及適用於這些項目的稅收影響。

As you can see, and as a result of our growing scale, we are beginning to reap the benefits of operating leverage on an adjusted net income basis. This is an important data point as it gives us the confidence that we are on the right trajectory with our earnings formula. For a detailed reconciliation between our net income and our adjusted net income, please refer to the appendix of this presentation.

如您所見，隨著我們規模的不斷擴大，我們開始在調整後淨利潤的基礎上獲得經營槓桿的效益。這是一個重要的數據點，因為它讓我們確信我們的獲利公式正朝著正確的方向發展。有關我們淨利潤與調整後淨利潤的詳細對賬，請參閱本簡報的附錄。

Now I'd like to turn the call over to Youssef, our Chief Operating Officer, who will walk you through our credit underwriting.

現在我想將電話轉給我們的營運長優素福 (Youssef)，他將向您介紹我們的信用核保。

Thank you, Lago. Let me now walk you through a few key indicators that track asset quality and the overall health of our credit portfolio.

謝謝，Lago。現在我來向你介紹幾個追蹤資產品質和我們信貸組合整體健康狀況的關鍵指標。

In Q4 2021, credit performance remained strong with delinquencies normalizing along expected lines, but still below pre-COVID levels when adjusted for portfolio mix between credit cards and lending. We expect the normalization to gradually continue and reach pre-COVID levels for both credit cards and for lending. We are underwriting based on these rising loss expectations as a baseline, and then requiring that every loan that we originate be resilient to risk worsening on top of that, resulting in cohorts that are able to withstand approximately a doubling of risk, depending on the product and segment.

2021年第四季，信貸表現依然強勁，拖欠率按預期恢復正常，但根據信用卡和貸款的投資組合調整後，仍低於新冠疫情前的水平。我們預計，這種正常化將逐步持續，信用卡和貸款都將達到新冠疫情前的水平。我們以這些不斷上升的損失預期為基準進行承保，並要求我們發放的每一筆貸款都具備抵禦風險惡化的韌性，從而使貸款群體能夠承受大約翻倍的風險，具體取決於產品和細分市場。

Now before I go further, I would like to recap the impact that expected credit loss, or ECL, as a loan loss provisioning methodology has on a consumer finance business with high growth rates, as is the case of our credit card and personal loan businesses. Per IFRS 9, loan loss provisions have to be recognized when a loan is granted, even before any revenue associated with that loan is accrued. This results in an intentional timing mismatch between revenues and costs.

在進一步闡述之前，我想先回顧一下預期信用損失（ECL）作為一種貸款損失準備方法對高成長率的消費金融業務（例如我們的信用卡和個人貸款業務）的影響。根據《國際財務報告準則第9號》（IFRS 9），貸款損失準備必須在貸款發放時確認，甚至在與該貸款相關的任何收入計提之前。這導致了收入和成本之間刻意出現的時間錯配。

For this reason, the higher our growth rate is, the higher the provisions we have to book are. And as Lago mentioned earlier, this negatively impacts gross profit and gross profit margins during periods of high growth. And as growth rates normalize, vertical gross profit margins are expected to converge over time towards those of mature cohorts.

因此，我們的成長率越高，需要提列的撥備就越高。正如Lago之前提到的，這會在高成長時期對毛利和毛利率產生負面影響。隨著成長率趨於正常化，預計垂直產業的毛利率將逐漸向成熟群體的水平靠攏。

Moving from this basic concept to our actual experience, the charts on this slide show the average evolution of risk-adjusted margins, or RAM, for our credit card and personal loan cohorts. We define risk-adjusted margin simply as revenues minus funding cost and minus cost of risk, expressed as a percentage of revenues. As you can appreciate, in earlier months, risk adjusted margin is negatively impacted by the accounting recognition of non-cash upfront loan loss provisions I spoke about a moment ago.

從這個基本概念到我們的實際經驗，這張投影片上的圖表顯示了我們信用卡和個人貸款業務的風險調整後利潤率（RAM）的平均變化。我們將風險調整後利潤率簡單定義為收入減去融資成本，再減去風險成本，以佔收入的百分比表示。正如您所看到的，在前幾個月，風險調整後利潤率受到了我剛才提到的非現金預付貸款損失準備金會計確認的負面影響。

Then, as revenue begins to accrue, RAM quickly expands and converges towards a 60% level or more for both products, with a payback period that is around 6 months or less. We are very deliberate in terms of which credit products we manufacture ourselves versus distribute. We tend to prefer products that have shorter duration and are more data intensive as this plays to our underwriting strengths.

然後，隨著收入開始成長，RAM 會迅速擴大，並收斂至兩種產品的 60% 或更高的水平，回收期約為 6 個月或更短。我們非常謹慎地選擇自行生產和分銷的信貸產品。我們傾向於選擇期限較短、資料密集度更高的產品，因為這可以發揮我們承保的優勢。

Having shared these perspectives on credit and asset quality, let me now turn the call back to David Velez, our Founder and CEO, for his concluding remarks.

分享完有關信貸和資產品質的觀點後，現在請容許我把電話轉回給我們的創辦人兼執行長 David Velez，請他作總結發言。

Thank you, Youssef. We have delivered another great year that has seen effectively all of our metrics improving and accelerating, and our successful IPO has given us a strong footing to pursue our strategic milestones in 2022 and beyond.

謝謝你，優素福。我們又度過了一個輝煌的一年，各項指標都得到了有效提升和加速。我們成功的IPO為我們在2022年及以後實現戰略里程碑奠定了堅實的基礎。

We believe the secular market trends that are accelerating our growth, such as significant migration towards digital financial products and growing financial inclusion across the region, remain as strong as ever. And we remain focused on disciplined execution against our priorities and in continuing to advance our business.

我們相信，加速我們成長的長期市場趨勢，例如向數位金融產品的大規模遷移以及整個地區金融包容性的不斷增強，將一如既往地強勁。我們將繼續專注於嚴格執行我們的優先事項，並持續推進我們的業務。

We look forward, as always, to keeping you updated on our progress next quarter. And now we'd like to take your questions.

我們一如既往地期待在下個季度向您通報我們的進展。現在，我們想回答您的問題。

(Operator Instructions)

（操作員指示）

Thank you, operator. The first question is coming from Tito Labarta.

謝謝接線生。第一個問題來自 Tito Labarta。

Can you hear me okay?

你聽見我說話嗎？

Yes, Tito.

是的，蒂托。

Can you hear me? Federico, can you hear me?

你聽見我嗎？費德里科，你聽見我嗎？

Yes, sir.

是的，先生。

Okay. Very great. Sorry, I was having trouble with my computer. I guess my question is in terms of your revenue per client. You saw some good evolution in the quarter. Clearly, you've been able to grow the loan portfolio. Any guidance or color you can give on how that revenue per client can grow this year, particularly given some of the macro risk and your ability to continue to grow the loan portfolio?

好的。非常好。抱歉，我的電腦出了點問題。我的問題是關於你們的每位客戶收入。你們在本季取得了一些不錯的進展。顯然，你們的貸款組合有所成長。考慮到一些宏觀風險以及你們繼續擴大貸款組合的能力，你們能否提供一些指導或信息，說明今年每位客戶收入將如何增長？

And bit behind that, like how much of it can come from continuing to grow the loan portfolio? And also with fee income growing also at a healthy pace, do you expect any color on how the mix would evolve between the loan fees to benefit the revenue per client?

除此之外，還有什麼其他因素？例如，其中有多少收入來自持續成長的貸款組合？此外，手續費收入也在健康成長，您預期貸款手續費收入的組成將如何演變，從而增加每位客戶的收入？

Tito, this is Lago. Thank you so much for your question. It's certainly a great one and the evolution of the average revenue per active customer, it's something that we are monitoring very closely. If you go to Slide 13 of the earnings presentation, you will see there the evolution of the ARPAC, or average revenue per active customer. And you can see that it is going up across all of the cohorts.

蒂托，我是拉戈。非常感謝您的提問。這個問題確實很棒，而且我們一直在密切關注每活躍客戶平均收入（ARPAC）的變化。如果您翻到財報簡報的第13張投影片，您會看到ARPAC（每活躍客戶平均收入）的變化。您可以看到，所有群組的ARPAC都在上升。

Our average ARPAC has achieved about $5.6 per month per active customer, coming from about $4.9 last quarter. But more importantly, the more mature cohorts are already operating at over $15 per active customers per month. And in fact, if you take a look at the customers who have our 3 core products, credit card, bank account and personal loans, their ARPAC are already at above $30 per active customers per month.

我們的平均每位活躍客戶每月 ARPAC 已達到約 5.6 美元，而上一季約為 4.9 美元。更重要的是，更成熟的客戶群已達到每位活躍客戶每月 15 美元以上的水平。事實上，如果您看看我們三大核心產品（信用卡、銀行帳戶和個人貸款）的客戶，他們的 ARPAC 已超過每位活躍客戶每月 30 美元。

So we think that ARPAC will continue to go up over the course of 2022 and going forward as a result of 2 things: first, and it's something that is not necessarily fully appreciated by many investors, is the maturation of the cohorts. As the cohorts season, as the cohorts mature, you can see that we become the primary banking relationship of more and more of those customers, and we increase the usage and the engagement and the purchase volumes with our core products. And then, secondly, it's the cross-sell. As we launch new products, as we launch new features, we actually increase this average revenue per active customers.

因此，我們認為 ARPAC 將在 2022 年及未來繼續上漲，這主要得益於兩件事：首先，也是許多投資者尚未充分意識到的一點，那就是客戶群的成熟。隨著客戶群的壯大，隨著客戶群的成熟，您會發現我們成為越來越多此類客戶的主要銀行關係，並且我們核心產品的使用量、參與度和購買量都在增加。其次，是交叉銷售。隨著我們推出新產品和新功能，我們實際上提高了每位活躍客戶的平均收入。

In 2022, we do expect that we will continue to pursue a very strong growth in both credit products as well as noncredit products. And we believe that credit card, personal loans will continue to play a key role there, but other products will start to kick in more aggressively in their contribution to the ARPAC. We are not, however, providing guidance on the ARPAC levels for 2022 and going forward.

我們預計，2022年，信貸產品和非信貸產品都將持續保持強勁成長。我們相信，信用卡和個人貸款將繼續發揮關鍵作用，但其他產品也將開始更積極地為ARPAC做出貢獻。不過，我們不會就2022年及未來的ARPAC水準提供指引。

Great. That's very helpful. Maybe 1 follow-up and pointed to Slide 13 on the presentation, right? In the past, all the cohorts look like -- took about 57 months to get to that $15, but I guess the newer cohorts seem to be getting there may be a bit faster. Is that fair to assume that, with time, that you can shorten the amount of time to reach that $15 ARPAC per client as you kind of continue to grow, maybe shortening the period from that 5 years to, I don't know, 3, 4 like -- or any color on the timing that you think it could take to get to $15 ARPAC?

太好了。這很有幫助。也許我接下來會問你，並指出簡報中的第13張投影片，對吧？過去，所有客戶群看起來都花了大約57個月才能達到15美元的目標，但我猜新的客戶群似乎會更快一些。這樣假設是否合理？隨著時間的推移，隨著業務的不斷發展，你們可以縮短達到每個客戶15美元ARPAC的時間，也許可以把時間從5年縮短到，我不知道，3年或4年左右——或者，你認為達到15美元ARPAC所需的時間具體是多少？

Yes. No, it's a great question, Tito. Sorry, it's a great question, Tito. And I think it is somehow unfair comparison across the cohorts because the earlier cohorts, we only had Nubank accounts and credit cards. So we had a much more limited product portfolio. As we launch more products, as we launch more features and as we cross-sell more of those products, as you can see on the slide in the middle of 13, the ARPAC potential and the LTV of our customers go up.

是的。不，Tito，這個問題問得很好。抱歉，Tito，這個問題問得很好。我覺得跨群組比較有點不公平，因為早期的群組只有 Nubank 帳戶和信用卡。所以我們的產品組合非常有限。隨著我們推出更多產品、推出更多功能以及交叉銷售更多這些產品，正如您在 13 年中期幻燈片中看到的那樣，ARPAC 潛力和客戶的 LTV 都在上升。

So yes, it is, I think, reasonable to assume that the customers -- the newer customers of the newer cohorts will be able to mature faster with more products than the earlier customers from the earlier cohorts.

所以是的，我認為，可以合理地假設，新群體中的新客戶將能夠比早期群體中的早期客戶更快地成熟，並擁有更多的產品。

Okay. Great. That's helpful. And congratulations on the strong results.

好的。太好了。這很有幫助。恭喜你取得如此優異的成績。

The next question is coming from Jorge Echevarria from Morgan Stanley.

下一個問題來自摩根士丹利的 Jorge Echevarria。

It's Jorge Kuri from Morgan Stanley. Congrats on the great numbers. I have a question on your revenue outlook for this year. You beat market expectations on revenues this quarter by around 18% vis-à-vis the consensus. Revenue per active customer beat was around 15%, and your net adds were well above what the market was anticipating.

我是摩根士丹利的豪爾赫·庫裡。恭喜您取得如此出色的業績。我想問一下您對今年收入前景的看法。本季您的收入比市場預期高出約18%。每活躍客戶收入（EBITDA）超出預期約15%，淨增客戶數也遠高於市場預期。

So as we think about 2022, the current consensus on net revenue is around $2.9 billion. How do you feel vis-à-vis that number? Where do you think are the potential upside risks to the number, meaning what parts of your business are doing better that you think you can actually outpace that?

那麼，就2022年而言，目前市場對淨收入的普遍預期是29億美元左右。您對這個數字有何看法？您認為這個數字的潛在上升風險在哪裡？也就是說，您認為哪些業務表現較好，以至於您認為您的成長速度能夠超過這個數字？

And then on the other hand, what do you think are the risks to that number where that number may prove to be optimistic? What are some of the things you're looking closely at, that would be incredibly helpful.

那麼，另一方面，您認為這個數字可能有哪些風險，導致這個數字可能過於樂觀？您正在密切關注哪些因素，這些因素會非常有幫助。

Jorge, this is Lago. Thank you so much for your question. Look, unfortunately, we do not provide financial guidance to the market. We very much appreciate the arguments in favor of guidance. We just believe that its costs outweighed the benefits for the company at this point in time. So we will -- we are and we will continue to be long-term focused. And if needed, we will put the long-term interest of the company ahead of our short-term results. And that's the reason why we have not provided guidance in order to maintain the culture and the focus of management team in the long term.

豪爾赫，我是拉戈。非常感謝您的提問。很遺憾，我們不向市場提供財務指引。我們非常感謝支持指引的論點。我們只是認為，目前來看，它的成本超過了公司收益。因此，我們——現在和將來都會——專注於長期發展。如有需要，我們會將公司的長期利益置於短期績效之上。這就是我們沒有提供指引的原因，為了長期維護公司文化和管理團隊的專注力。

Having said that, we do expect 2022 to be a strong year for us. We think that we're going to make good strides across many products, both credit and non-credit. And more importantly, I think we're going to make very good strides in new geos. The operations that we have launched in Mexico and Colombia have been having very encouraging signs of success. Mexico is -- was the first country that we launched outside of -- after Brazil. We now have, as you may have seen, over 1.4 million customers in Mexico as of December 2021.

話雖如此，我們確實預計2022年將是強勁的一年。我們相信，我們將在信貸和非信貸等眾多產品上取得長足進步。更重要的是，我認為我們將在新的地域市場取得長足進步。我們在墨西哥和哥倫比亞開展的業務已取得令人鼓舞的成功跡象。墨西哥是繼巴西之後，我們在海外開展業務的第一個國家。如您所見，截至2021年12月，我們在墨西哥的客戶已超過140萬人。

We believe that we have already become the largest issuer of new cards in Mexico in the fourth quarter. So we will be expanding products. We will be expanding geos, and we will be -- we will continue to expand the number of customers. And unfortunately, I will not be able to provide you with much guidance on whether we think we will or will not beat market consensus and by how much. I hope you can understand, Jorge.

我們相信，我們第四季已成為墨西哥最大的新卡發行商。因此，我們將擴大產品線，拓展地域覆蓋，並將繼續擴大客戶數量。遺憾的是，我無法就我們是否認為我們的業績會超出市場預期以及超出幅度提供太多指導。希望您能理解，豪爾赫。

No, I understand, Lago. But I guess just to focus, I mean -- I think it's pretty evident to everyone what could be the sources of potential upside. Can you maybe talk about the risks to the 2022 revenue number? What would you say are the top 3 risks that management is looking closely at, following closely? And how do you expect those to play out during the year?

不，我明白，Lago。但我想重點說一下——我認為每個人都很清楚哪些因素可能帶來潛在的成長。能否談談2022年營收數據面臨的風險？您認為管理階層正在密切關注的三大風險是什麼？您預計這些風險在今年會如何發展？

Jorge, I think on the risks that we have, I think, what will kind of move the needle more strongly in 2022 is, we will have to continue to see our cohorts mature. We have seen the cohorts maturing and we have seen the purchase volume per active customers go up 5 to 6 time over time. We believe that this will continue, but it's a risk going forward.

豪爾赫，我認為，說到我們面臨的風險，我認為在2022年，能夠帶來更大推動力的是，我們必須繼續見證用戶群的成熟。我們已經看到用戶群日趨成熟，並且每位活躍用戶的購買量隨著時間的推移增長了5到6倍。我們相信這種情況會持續下去，但這是未來的風險。

The second risk that is inevitable that we will be watching very closely and we are hyperfocused is on monitoring the asset quality of the portfolio, and we are not blind to the macroeconomic deterioration expectations that exist. As of today, we are very optimistic that the market will prove to be favorable to the expansion that we plan to have, especially as we start with a much lower market share. But we will be watching this very carefully and with hyperfocus on short-term delinquency indicators.

第二個不可避免的風險是，我們將密切關注並高度關注投資組合的資產質量，我們並非對現有的宏觀經濟惡化預期視而不見。截至目前，我們非常樂觀地認為，市場將有利於我們計劃的擴張，尤其是在我們起步時市佔率還很低的情況下。但我們將密切關注這一點，並高度關注短期違約指標。

Jorge, David here as well. Just following up here on Lago. I think -- clearly, macro is a source of uncertainty for us. And we are -- as Lago says, we're taking that -- we're taking a very close look into any potential deterioration for macro, and we will adjust any growth expectations if we start seeing signs that we feel uncomfortable with the risk that we're taking.

喬治，還有大衛。我跟進一下拉戈的問題。我認為——顯然，宏觀經濟對我們來說是一個不確定性的來源。正如拉戈所說，我們正在密切關注宏觀經濟的任何潛在惡化趨勢，如果我們開始看到一些跡象表明我們對所承擔的風險感到不安，我們將調整任何成長預期。

That being said, the type of credit products that we pick -- sorry, there is some -- okay. These are 2 products that give us very good visibility and they're very data intensive. They're very short-term duration in nature, very high return on equity, very high return on capital. So will give us the opportunity to react very quickly if we see any deterioration, and there is a lot of buffer and cushion on the profitability of these products.

話雖如此，我們選擇的信貸產品類型——抱歉，有一些——好的。這兩款產品為我們帶來了非常好的可視性，而且它們非常依賴數據。它們的期限非常短，股本回報率和資本回報率都非常高。因此，如果我們發現任何惡化的情況，我們就能迅速做出反應，而且這些產品的獲利能力有很大的緩衝空間。

And at the same time, if the macro does take a turn for the worse, we are entering this year extremely well capitalized with all of our IPO capital effectively untouched. And that should also open up for us a number of opportunities that we would expect to see. Customers, as we've seen historically in all our history, which we've only seen -- unfortunately, we've only seen Brazil in a recession effectively since we started in 2013.

同時，如果宏觀經濟情勢真的惡化，我們今年的資本狀況非常充裕，所有IPO資金其實都不受影響。這也應該會為我們帶來許多我們預期的機會。客戶方面，正如我們歷史上所見，不幸的是，自2013年我們成立以來，我們只見過巴西陷入經濟衰退。

Customers tend to become even more sensitive to products that charge them less fees, the product that is charging less interest. And that environment tends to be an environment where our products are so focused on the customer excel. And so that combination of more differentiation with the capital that we have can open up a series of opportunities for us.

客戶往往對收費更低、利息更低的產品更敏感。在這樣的環境下，我們的產品往往更重視客戶體驗。因此，將差異化優勢與我們現有的資本結合，可以為我們帶來一系列機會。

So net-net, we are really kind of observing both sides of the trade, being very aware of some of the risks that we might be facing over the next 12 months. But ultimately, very comfortable with the strategy that we are executing.

所以總的來說，我們確實在觀察交易的雙方，並且非常清楚未來12個月可能面臨的一些風險。但最終，我們對正在執行的策略非常滿意。

Next question is coming from Thiago Batista from UBS.

下一個問題來自瑞銀的蒂亞戈·巴蒂斯塔。

Sorry. Can you hear me?

抱歉。你聽見我說話嗎？

Yes, Thiago. We can hear you.

是的，蒂亞戈。我們能聽到你的聲音。

Actually, you opened Jorg Friedemann from Citi. So my question is related to a bit of what David just mentioned. When you look into the evolution of revenues quarter-over-quarter, it expanded by more than 30%; gross profit, low single digits exactly because of this expected loss methodology you are using.

實際上，您剛才提到了花旗銀行的Jorg Friedemann。所以我的問題和David剛才提到的有點相關。當您查看季度環比收入變化時，發現收入增長了30%以上；而毛利只有個位數的低增長，這恰恰是因為您使用的預期損失方法。

So I understand that we're comfortable with the strategy. But I also like to understand how comfortable you are with your excess liquidity. Asset quality, I think, is well explained. But you have more than $90 billion -- $9 billion of deposits and, at this moment, $2 billion of interest-earning assets. So at some extent, that could jeopardize your ability to continue expanding margins and you need to be a bit more aggressive also to be able to capitalize on this difference.

所以我知道我們對這個策略很滿意。但我也想了解您對過剩流動性的承受能力。我認為資產品質的問題已經得到很好的解釋。但您有超過900億美元——90億美元的存款，以及目前20億美元的生息資產。因此，在某種程度上，這可能會危及您繼續擴大利潤率的能力，您需要更積極一些，才能利用這筆差額。

Jorg, no, thank you so much for your question. I think it's a great [provocation]. And we do believe that in Latin America for you to play in consumer credit underwriting, you need 2 things. You need not only a state-of-the-art credit underwriting platform, but you do need to have access to local currency funding at competitive rates. And I think, as you mentioned, we have now a fairly comfortable funding structure today. Our balance sheet is very simple. We have about $9 billion of deposits to basically support about $2 billion of interest-earning assets, and therefore, we have lots of flexibility. Our loan-to-deposit ratio is one of the most conservative that we can find.

喬格，不，非常感謝你的提問。我認為這是一個很好的[挑釁]。我們確實認為，在拉丁美洲，要想在消費信貸核保領域有所作為，需要兩樣東西。你不僅需要一個最先進的信貸承保平台，還需要能夠以有競爭力的利率獲得當地貨幣融資。正如你所提到的，我認為我們現在的融資結構相當寬鬆。我們的資產負債表非常簡單。我們擁有約90億美元的存款，基本上支撐著約20億美元的生息資產，因此，我們擁有很大的靈活性。我們的貸存比是我們能找到的最保守的比率之一。

Going forward, we do expect that we will fund the majority of our interest-earning asset portfolio or credit portfolio, in general, with our own local currency deposits. And I think you were alluding to also the cost of those deposits. And look, we do have -- for the majority of those deposits, we pay 100% of CDI, which are the deposits for consumers. But for the deposits for SMEs, we have already started to pay 0% of CDI. And thirdly, I think the credit card working capital structure in Brazil is also very favorable for the issuer because it has a negative working capital scenario. So as we grow credit card, it increases the floats to which we expect.

展望未來，我們確實預計將以我們自有的本幣存款來為大部分生息資產組合或信貸組合提供資金。我想您也提到了這些存款的成本。您看，對於大部分存款，我們支付100%的消費者存款準備金（CDI）。但對於中小企業存款，我們已經開始支付0%的CDI。第三，我認為巴西的信用卡營運資本結構對發卡機構也非常有利，因為它的營運資本為負。因此，隨著我們信用卡業務的成長，浮動資金也會隨之增加，正如我們預期的那樣。

Going forward, we do expect to remain and to pursue the lowest possible cost of funding for us. And we will be watching carefully the opportunities that we have in the value proposition to our customers as to how we can price the deposits in the coming quarters and years.

展望未來，我們確實希望繼續追求盡可能低的融資成本。我們將密切關注我們為客戶提供的價值主張中蘊藏的機會，並決定未來幾季和幾年如何為存款定價。

No, that's perfect. If you allow just a follow-up. On the point about expansion of revenues versus gross profit, you alluded to how you see the effects of IFRS in Slide #23. And using this as a reference and also what you just mentioned in terms of cost of funding, when do you think, in your strategy, we are going to see the gross profit accelerating more aligned with the revenue profit?

不，太好了。請容許我再問一下。關於營收與毛利成長的問題，您在第23張投影片中提到了您如何看待國際財務報告準則（IFRS）的影響。以此為參考，再加上您剛才提到的融資成本，您認為在您的策略中，什麼時候毛利的成長速度才能與營收利潤的成長速度更一致？

Jorg, it's a great question. I think I would even take advantage of turning your attention to Slide 24 that Youssef has highlighted. And as you can see there, at maturity, our products converge towards a 60% plus risk-adjusted margin. So we expect that we will converge towards a much higher gross profit margin as the growth rate in our interest-earning assets stabilizes. As long as we can -- as we have high growth in interest-earning assets, we should expect to see the expected credit loss provisioning putting pressure on our gross profit margins. Even though it is an intentional time mismatch, once they converge at maturity, all of the cohorts have converged towards a 60% plus risk-adjusted margin.

Jorg，這個問題問得很好。我想藉此機會請您看一下Youssef重點提到的第24張投影片。如您所見，我們的產品在到期時，風險調整後利潤率會趨於60%以上。因此，我們預計，隨著生息資產成長率趨於穩定，我們的毛利率將大幅上升。只要我們能夠做到——由於我們的生息資產保持高成長，我們應該能夠預見預期信用損失撥備會對我們的毛利率造成壓力。儘管這是刻意為之的時間錯配，但一旦它們在到期時趨於一致，所有產品組合的風險調整後利潤率都會趨於60%以上。

So it's a -- your question is probably when are we going to start to post much lower growth rates, is where we're going to achieve the 60% or closer to the 60% risk-adjusted margin. It is also a function, as you may have seen, of the ratio between the front book and the back book. Even as we continue to grow, the back book will continue to gain relevance -- relative relevance and the more relevance the back book has, the higher the gross profit margin should get.

所以，你的問題可能是，我們什麼時候才能開始公佈更低的成長率，什麼時候才能達到60%或更接近60%的風險調整後利潤率。正如你可能已經看到的，這也是前帳簿和後帳簿之間比率的函數。即使我們繼續成長，後帳簿的相關性也會繼續增強——相對相關性，後帳簿的相關性越高，毛利率就應該越高。

That's perfect. Appreciate it.

太完美了，非常感謝。

And Jorg, David here, just adding a bit of -- even a little bit more of additional context. I think it's worth taking into context that we -- by now, we have something like 30% of the entire adult population in Brazil as customers. But we only have something like 1% market share in the consumer lending portfolio, which is the largest profit pool in the banking sector in Brazil. And when we go and talk to our customers, we are seeing us getting the highest Net Promoter Score in that product consistently. And so it would kind of take us to conclude that, over a period of time, we should be able to see our customers refinancing a lot of their existing loans with Nubank and us gaining a proportionately much higher market share, similar to the market share that we have from a customer perspective.

Jorg，David，我想補充一點背景資訊。我認為值得一提的是，到目前為止，我們的客戶群已經涵蓋了巴西約30%的成年人口。但我們在消費貸款領域只佔有約1%的市場份額，而消費貸款是巴西銀行業最大的利潤來源。當我們與客戶溝通時，我們發現我們在該產品上的淨推薦值一直最高。因此，我們可以得出結論：在一段時間內，我們應該能夠看到客戶透過Nubank為大量現有貸款進行再融資，而我們獲得的市場份額也將相應提高，與客戶視角下的市場份額相近。

So there is -- all of this to say that there is a significant amount of growth ahead and the size of the customer base is a bit of a leading -- the customer base multiplied by the NPS is a leading indicator to future market share gains in some of the financial products that we have. And so we really are in the very, very early stages of that growth projection or growth trajectory in some of these products.

所以，所有這些都表明，未來成長空間巨大，客戶群規模也處於領先地位——客戶群乘以淨推薦值 (NPS)，是我們某些金融產品未來市佔率成長的領先指標。因此，對於某些產品而言，我們確實處於成長預測或成長軌跡的非常早期階段。

Next question is coming from Thiago Batista, UBS.

下一個問題來自瑞銀的蒂亞戈·巴蒂斯塔。

I have 2 follow-ups. The first one is about the most recent cohort of Nubank. When you look for the new clients, do you believe that they have the same potential for their part of the old clients or, no, the clients are not so good as in the past? So I want to understand if the new clients, they have the same potential of the old ones.

我有兩個後續問題。第一個是關於 Nubank 最新一批客戶的。當您尋找新客戶時，您認為他們的潛力是否與老客戶相同，或者，這些客戶不如以前那麼好？所以我想知道新客戶是否與老客戶一樣有潛力。

And also, the second question or second follow-up is about asset quality. You already mentioned that NPL ratio should return to the pre-COVID level. Now is still well below this level. Do you have a sense if this is expected to happen in '22 H2? Or no, this should take a couple of years to return to this pre-COVID level?

另外，第二個問題或第二個後續問題是關於資產品質的。您之前提到不良貸款率應該會恢復到新冠疫情之前的水平。現在仍然遠低於這個水平。您覺得這是否會在2022年下半年實現？或者說，這需要幾年時間才能恢復到新冠疫情之前的水平？

Thiago, thanks so much for your question. Let me address maybe the revenue potential that you alluded and then I will invite Youssef to address the asset quality question that you posed.

蒂亞戈，非常感謝你的提問。我先來談談你提到的收入潛力，然後我會請尤素夫來回答你提出的資產品質問題。

So look, in our new customer, our marginal customer has proven to be as profitable as the older ones, especially if you look at the Slide 13. You can see that as we launch more products and as we launch more features, you will -- basically, you have been able, even for the earlier cohorts to have growth curves that are at par, if not better, than the growth curves of the older cohorts. As I mentioned before, it's not only because of the faster maturation of the customers, but also because we now have much more products and features, and we can offer a much more comprehensive value proposition to the customers.

所以，看看我們的新客戶，我們的邊際客戶已被證明與老客戶一樣盈利，特別是如果你看幻燈片13的話。你可以看到，隨著我們推出更多產品和功能，你會看到——基本上，即使是早期的客戶群，其成長曲線也與老客戶群的成長曲線持平，甚至更好。正如我之前提到的，這不僅是因為客戶成熟得更快，還因為我們現在擁有更多產品和功能，我們可以為客戶提供更全面的價值主張。

In terms of overall potential, if you take a look at the ARPAC of incumbent banks in Brazil, they are about $35, $38 per active customers per month. We are still at about $5 per active customers per month. The more mature cohorts already at $15. So we believe that we still have a gigantic gap to close in both proprietary products as well as third-party products.

就整體潛力而言，看看巴西現有銀行的ARPAC（每個活躍客戶每月平均成本）大約是35美元到38美元。我們目前每位活躍客戶每月平均成本仍約為5美元。成熟客戶群的ARPAC已經達到15美元。因此，我們認為，無論是自有產品還是第三方產品，我們仍然面臨巨大的差距。

Your question also alludes to what about the new customers, the marginal customers? Are they as profitable and as promising as the older ones? And I think we are -- basically, we have made very good strides into the younger middle class in Brazil. As we evolved, we are converging towards the average demographics of Brazil and we are making very good strides into the upmarket as well as good strides into reaching deeper into the unbanked. The balance of those 2 things so far has proven to be very promising as you can see in the cohorts, which show kind of cohort lines that are even better than the older ones.

您的問題也暗示了新客戶、邊際客戶的狀況。他們和老客戶一樣能帶來利潤，前景也一樣光明嗎？我認為是的——基本上，我們在巴西年輕中產階級市場取得了長足進步。隨著我們的發展，我們正在向巴西的平均人口結構靠攏，在高端市場也取得了長足進步，同時也在深入覆蓋無銀行帳戶人群方面取得了長足進步。到目前為止，這兩方面的平衡已被證明是非常有前景的，正如您在隊列中看到的那樣，隊列曲線甚至比舊客戶曲線還要好。

Youssef, would you also be able to shed some light on the asset quality question that Thiago posed?

尤素夫，您能否解釋一下蒂亞戈提出的資產品質問題？

Yes, I'd be happy to. Thiago, so with respect to asset quality and the trajectory there and the outlook, -- so as I've said before, we expect the credit environment to normalize back to pre-COVID levels. And if you look at what's happened over the last 2 years as we entered the pandemic, we've seen extraordinarily low levels of delinquencies and NPLs. But they've started to normalize back in the last few quarters. In fact, our expectation was that normalization would take place. That was our expectation all along.

是的，我很樂意。蒂亞戈，關於資產品質、發展軌跡和前景，正如我之前所說，我們預計信貸環境將恢復到新冠疫情之前的正常水平。回顧過去兩年疫情爆發以來的情況，我們發現拖欠率和不良貸款率非常低。但最近幾個季度，它們又開始恢復正常化了。事實上，我們一直預期信用環境會正常化。

And if anything, it's been normalizing slower than we expected. We thought this process would take maybe 6 to 12 months. We are 24 months into the pandemic and still slightly below pre-pandemic levels in terms of delinquencies, but we expect that to continue to normalize going forward. So that's our baseline scenario.

無論如何，恢復正常的速度比我們預期的要慢。我們原以為這個過程可能需要6到12個月。疫情已經持續了24個月，拖欠率仍然略低於疫情前的水平，但我們預計未來將繼續恢復正常。這是我們的基準情境。

Now as I've said before, our -- as part of our credit underwriting philosophy, we expect every loan, every credit card grants -- every credit limit grant that we do to go through a downturn. That's the level of risk that we underwrite to. And so as a result, it gives us really strong levels of resilience. Our cohorts, on aggregate, are able to take in roughly a doubling of risk and still be NPV positive, and so we feel very comfortable with the level of resilience that we have inherent in our portfolio.

正如我之前所說，作為我們信用承保理念的一部分，我們預計每筆貸款、每張信用卡的發放——以及我們發放的每筆信用額度，都會經歷經濟低迷時期。這就是我們承保的風險等級。因此，這賦予了我們非常強大的韌性。整體而言，我們的投資組合能夠承受約兩倍的風險，同時仍保持淨現值正值，因此，我們對投資組合固有的韌性水準感到非常滿意。

Next question is coming from Darrin Peller, Wolfe.

下一個問題來自沃爾夫的達林佩​​勒 (Darrin Peller)。

When I look at the user growth numbers, obviously, it continues to look strong. We've seen a lot of our -- lot of other digital companies that had a pull forward in the pandemic. Maybe you could just walk through the main driving forces of that strength we're seeing, whether it's geographic or new product.

當我查看用戶成長數據時，顯然它仍然保持強勁。我們看到很多其他數位公司在疫情期間取得了成長。或許您可以簡單談談我們所看到的這種強勁勢頭的主要驅動力，無論是地域因素還是新產品。

And then just to underscore the underlying customer acquisition cost that seems to still be strong, as you grow into those new geographies and products, anything we should expect about that to change in terms of your CAC that we've been able to see somewhat industry-leading?

然後，只是為了強調似乎仍然強勁的潛在客戶獲取成本，隨著您擴展到這些新的地區和產品，我們應該預期您的 CAC 方面會發生哪些變化，我們已經能夠看到您的 CAC 在某種程度上處於行業領先地位？

Sure. Thanks, Darrin, for the question. So we think the market has gone through several stages and is not that different from any other technology adoption curve, where you begin really addressing the early adopters. And in fact, we started very much focused on those early adopters, convincing those early adopters that we're the traditional early millennials that were much eager to adopt digital solutions. And I would say somewhere around 2017, '18, '19, you start kind of breaking away from those early adopters to really grabbing the main market.

當然。 Darrin，謝謝你的提問。我們認為市場已經經歷了幾個階段，與其他技術採用曲線並沒有什麼不同，你開始真正關注早期採用者。事實上，我們一開始就非常關注這些早期採用者，並讓他們相信我們就是傳統的千禧世代，他們非常渴望採用數位解決方案。我想說，大約在2017年、2018年、2019年左右，你開始擺脫這些早期採用者的束縛，真正抓住主要市場。

And I would say that's probably where we are today. This has become -- the digital banking solution has become embraced by, I would say, a very significant percentage of Brazilians already. Pandemic accelerated that adoption among certain segments that were historically a bit more skeptic; segments such as people above 60 years old, segments that really were very much heavy into off-line branches.

我想說，我們今天的情況可能就是這樣。數位銀行解決方案已經被相當一部分巴西人所接受。疫情加速了某些群體的接受，而這些群體過去一直對數位銀行持懷疑態度；例如60歲以上的人群，他們非常依賴線下銀行。

Since all those branches were closed, people had no other option than starting to using a lot of the digital channels. And since we were the category leader, we are the category leader in the digital banking solution, they tend to flock to us before they go to consider any other options. So that's mainly the reason why we now start seeing actually our core growth accelerating, and we start seeing our segments expanding beyond the core millennial population.

由於所有分行都關閉了，人們別無選擇，只能開始使用大量的數位管道。由於我們是數位銀行解決方案的領導者，人們往往在考慮其他選擇之前就蜂擁而至。這主要是因為我們現在開始看到核心業務成長加速，我們的細分市場也開始擴展到核心千禧世代以外的人。

And this gets accelerated by our ability to launch new products. So 3 years ago, we had 1 product, a credit card, and then we launched a savings account. Now we go to market with a credit card, savings account, personal loan, insurance, a marketplace, both for consumers and small businesses. So the value proposition is much more robust and complete. And that helps us get still the skepticals that we're saying, no, it's very painful to have different banking solutions. Whenever you launch the -- a personal loan, I'll go to Nubank. And we see that a lot from customers that says, "I'm still waiting, when are you launching the following product? When are you launching the following product?"

我們推出新產品的能力加速了這個進程。三年前，我們只有一款產品──信用卡，後來又推出了儲蓄帳戶。現在，我們面向消費者和小型企業，提供信用卡、儲蓄帳戶、個人貸款、保險等多種產品，並建立了一個交易平台。因此，我們的價值主張更加穩健、完善。這有助於我們消除那些質疑的聲音，他們說，提供不同的銀行解決方案非常痛苦。每當我推出個人貸款時，我都會聯絡 Nubank。我們經常聽到客戶問：“我還在等，你們什麼時候推出下一款產品？你們什麼時候推出下一款產品？”

So I'd say those combination of forces, sort of the market embracing fully digital banking, combined with our ability to provide more products, reinforces the growth adoption. And ultimately, customers are coming. Why are they coming? They're coming because it's a better experience at lower costs, almost very simple kind of equation. Better experience is the combination of fully digital products, great customer service, very easy to use, very simple interfaces at a lower cost. We charge no fees and -- especially in personal lending, but in certain segments in credit cards, we are also trying to bring cost and interest rates lower and lower and lower.

所以我想說，這些力量的結合，例如市場對全數位銀行的接受度，加上我們提供更多產品的能力，都促進了銀行的採用率成長。最終，客戶會蜂擁而至。他們為什麼會來？因為他們能以更低的成本獲得更好的體驗，這幾乎是一個非常簡單的公式。更好的體驗是全數位產品、優質的客戶服務、非常易用、介面簡潔，以及更低成本的組合。我們不收取任何費用，尤其是在個人貸款領域，但在信用卡的某些領域，我們也在努力降低成本和利率。

So it becomes almost like effectively a no-brainer solution, why would you stay with the big incumbent that charges you more, makes you wait to the big -- makes you wait and go to a big branch when you have an absolutely better solution. So we expect to -- these really trend to just accelerate across all the different demographics and be even increased and augmented by the product road map that we have ahead over the next few years.

所以這幾乎成了一個不費腦筋的解決方案。既然有更好的解決方案，為什麼還要繼續選擇收費較高的老牌大公司？你得等到大公司，然後才去大分行。所以我們預計，這些趨勢將在所有不同人群中加速發展，並在未來幾年內隨著我們制定的產品路線圖而進一步增強。

Neat. That's -- I appreciate that. The customer acquisition cost, you think can be stable. And just 1 quick follow-up is on partnerships. I know that's also been a great source for you guys to add incremental offerings and probably attract customers. Is there progress on incremental company partnerships in different verticals such as insurance or trading like you've done before?

太棒了。這很感謝。您認為客戶獲取成本可以保持穩定。還有一個關於合作關係的快速跟進問題。我知道這對你們來說也是一個很好的資源，可以增加增量產品，並可能吸引客戶。你們在保險或交易等不同垂直領域的增量公司合作夥伴關係方面是否有進展，就像你們以前做的那樣？

Sure. Yes. So this is what we mentioned as what we call the marketplace that we really launched towards the end of Q4. So it's very early. But we already have over 20 different partners from a number of different e-commerce businesses that are offering their products to our customers via our app. We have secured lending products such as Creditas that offer secured lending for home equity and auto equity.

當然。是的。這就是我們之前提到的市場，實際上是在第四季末推出的。所以現在還為時過早。但我們已經有來自不同電商企業的20多家合作夥伴透過我們的應用程式向客戶提供他們的產品。我們有一些擔保貸款產品，例如Creditas，它提供房屋淨值和汽車淨值擔保貸款。

And such like that, we have a number of different partnerships that we're announcing. Now that we have the right product architecture and technology platform, it becomes much easier to launch the second, third, 10, 15, 20 different partnerships. We want to do it in a way that maintains the simplicity for the customer, and we absolutely do not want to pollute the entire experience and see our customers end up with 10,000 SKUs. We want to be very deliberate and very careful about the type of products that we offer our customers and type of [branches] that we have. So we're taking our time to do it right.

諸如此類，我們宣布了一系列不同的合作關係。現在我們擁有了合適的產品架構和技術平台，啟動第二、第三、10、15、20個不同的合作關係變得容易得多。我們希望以一種維護客戶便捷性的方式進行，並且絕對不想破壞整個體驗，讓客戶最終擁有10,000個SKU。我們希望非常謹慎地選擇我們為客戶提供的產品類型以及我們擁有的[分支機構]類型。所以我們會花時間把事情做好。

But ultimately, we think this is a huge opportunity because we're able to use the scale that we have to bring better solutions and offers to our customers and accelerate the flywheel of, the higher the value proposition is, the more customers come; the more customers come, the more they invite their friends, and they maintain the lower customer acquisition costs and reinforce that value proposition. So we're very excited about that marketplace -- early marketplace moves.

但最終，我們認為這是一個巨大的機遇，因為我們能夠利用現有的規模為客戶提供更好的解決方案和優惠，並加速飛輪的運轉：價值主張越高，客戶就越多；客戶越多，他們邀請朋友的次數就越多，從而保持較低的客戶獲取成本，並強化這一價值主張。因此，我們對這個市場——早期的市場舉措——感到非常興奮。

Next question is coming from Neha Agarwala from HSBC.

下一個問題來自匯豐銀行的 Neha Agarwala。

Fede, can you hear me?

費德，你聽得到我說話嗎？

Yes, I can hear you, Neha.

是的，我聽得到你的聲音，Neha。

Congratulations team on the marginal quarter, very good results. My question is more on asset quality. It's good to see the asset quality trends that you've shown in the presentation. The NPL ratio for the consumer finance book is about 3.5% right now. But if we expect it to go to pre-COVID levels of, say, 4.3%, 4.5% during this year, what does that mean for your cost of risk?

祝賀團隊取得了不錯的業績，這是一個非常不錯的季度。我的問題是關於資產品質的。很高興看到您在簡報中展示的資產品質趨勢。目前消費金融業務的不良貸款率約為3.5%。但如果我們預計今年不良貸款率將達到新冠疫情之前的水平，例如4.3%或4.5%，這對您的風險成本意味著什麼？

The cost of risk for this year has been going up through the quarters and was -- for 2021 was about 10%. Given that the ECL model requires you to provision upfront, would it make sense for the cost of risk to go up to, say, 13% to 15% in 2022? Or what level do you think would make sense?

今年的風險成本逐季上漲，2021 年約 10%。考慮到預期信用損失 (ECL) 模型要求您預先撥備，風險成本在 2022 年上漲至 13% 至 15% 是否合理？或者您認為合理的水平是多少？

Neha, this is Youssef. Thank you very much for the question. So first off, as Lago mentioned earlier, we don't provide financial guidance around this metric. But if you were to say qualitatively about the trends that have been playing out, and we expect to play out that impact NPLs and cost of risk, I would say there's 2 main things at play. One is the continued normalization to pre-COVID levels. As you rightly pointed out, we expect that to continue to put upward pressure on NPLs and translate into slightly higher coverage ratios and slightly higher cost of risk.

Neha，我是Youssef。非常感謝您的提問。首先，正如Lago之前提到的，我們不提供圍繞該指標的財務指導。但如果要定性地描述目前呈現的趨勢，以及我們預計這些趨勢將如何影響不良貸款和風險成本，我認為主要有兩方面因素在起作用。一是不良貸款繼續正常化至新冠疫情前的水平。正如您正確指出的那樣，我們預計這將繼續對不良貸款造成上行壓力，並轉化為略高的撥備覆蓋率和略高的風險成本。

The other one is just the mix of credit assets that we book. Our lending portfolio has been growing relatively faster than our credit card portfolio. And it also comes with both higher margins and higher risk levels. So we expect that to put also upward pressure on things like NPL and cost of risk. So qualitatively, I think those would be the 2 main drivers going forward that we expect.

另一個因素是我們帳面信貸資產的組合。我們的貸款組合成長速度相對快於信用卡組合。而且，貸款組合的利潤率和風險水準也更高。因此，我們預期這也會對不良貸款和風險成本等方面造成上行壓力。所以，從定性角度來看，我認為這將是我們預期未來兩個主要驅動因素。

If I could just follow up, and I know you don't provide any guidance regarding loan growth. But given the macro environment today, would your preference be more inclined towards growing your loan book faster or maybe building out your platform focusing more on the fee side of the business rather than on the interest income side of business?

我想問一下，我知道您沒有提供任何關於貸款成長的指導。但考慮到目前的宏觀環境，您是更傾向於加快貸款規模的成長，還是更專注於費用業務而非利息收入業務來建立平台？

And what level of growth should we expect, especially in the personal loan book? I mean no specific numbers, but -- I mean should it be similar in terms of nominal increase in the loan book? Should it be similar to what we saw during 2021? Or do you expect to slow down growth, especially in the personal loan book for this year?

我們應該預期成長水準是多少，尤其是在個人貸款方面？我沒有具體的數字，但我的意思是，就貸款名義增長而言，應該類似嗎？應該與2021年的水準相似嗎？還是您預計今年的成長速度會放緩，尤其是在個人貸款方面？

Yes, Neha, great question. So on growth levels, our outlook, as I mentioned earlier, is for this continued normalization to pre-COVID levels. That's our baseline scenario, under which we would continue to grow at a healthy pace, both credit card and lending. And we feel very comfortable with that baseline scenario because there's a lot of resilience built into our cohorts that's come with very short paybacks, very high margins, as you saw in those slides. And they're very short duration. Our average duration is around 6, 7 months for loans.

是的，Neha，這個問題問得好。就成長水準而言，正如我之前提到的，我們的預期是繼續恢復到新冠疫情之前的正常水準。這是我們的基準情景，在此情景下，我們的信用卡和貸款業務都將繼續保持健康成長。我們對這一基準情景感到非常放心，因為我們的客戶群擁有很強的韌性，回報週期很短，利潤率很高，正如您在幻燈片中看到的那樣。而且他們的貸款期限也很短。我們貸款的平均期限約為6到7個月。

So we feel very comfortable with that short duration. And should conditions materially deteriorate, we feel good about our ability to detect that and to act faster -- and to act fast to pull back, if needed, or take any other resilience-building actions around pricing, around collections intensity, et cetera. So we're prepared to act should things deviate from our baseline.

所以我們對這個短暫的周期感到非常安心。如果情況嚴重惡化，我們對自己能夠察覺並迅速採取行動的能力充滿信心——在必要時迅速撤退，或在定價、催收力度等方面採取任何其他增強韌性的措施。因此，如果情況偏離我們的基準線，我們已做好準備。

Next question is coming from Geoffrey Elliott from Autonomous.

下一個問題來自 Autonomous 的 Geoffrey Elliott。

The fourth quarter is always a strong one for spending and card TPV in Brazil. Can you give us a flavor of how much seasonality is there in the numbers? How much should the strength in revenues persist versus being part of an impact of the fourth quarter being strong? And then likewise, any kind of seasonal impact in expenses or anywhere else in the P&L that we should be aware of?

第四季巴西的消費和信用卡總價值（TPV）一直表現強勁。您能否解釋一下這些數字中有多少季節性因素？這種強勁的營收成長應該持續多久，還是只是受到第四季度強勁成長的影響？同樣，我們應該注意支出或其他損益表中的季節性因素嗎？

Sure, Geoff. Thanks so much for your question. It's a great one. I think you can take a look a little bit about seasonality on Slide 15, where you can see the evolution of our purchase volume. And yes, the fourth quarter of each year has historically been a strong quarter in terms of purchase volume. But overall, if you take a look at our growth, the overall growth of the company in terms of number of customers, in terms of purchase volumes, in terms of cards has outweighted the volatility going forward.

當然，Geoff。非常感謝你的提問。這個問題問得非常好。我想你可以看第15張投影片上關於季節性的內容，可以看到我們購買量的變化。沒錯，每年第四季的購買量歷來都很強勁。但總的來說，如果你看看我們的成長情況，你會發現公司在客戶數量、購買量和卡片數量方面的整體成長已經超過了未來的波動。

So we don't expect that we will have, in 2022, a behavior that is materially different than one that we have seen in 2021. It is also the case that there is some seasonality in terms of cost of risk throughout the year. We also expect that 2022 will follow a relatively similar trend as we see in the Brazilian market.

因此，我們預期2022年的表現不會與2021年有顯著差異。此外，風險成本在全年也存在一定的季節性。我們預計2022年的表現將與巴西市場大致相似。

Okay. Could you remind us on that seasonality and cost of risk? How does that play through?

好的。您能否提醒我們季節性和風險成本？它們是如何發揮作用的？

Yes. I think historically, you can see that the delinquency are usually lower in the fourth quarter and higher in the first quarter of each year. That's normal season trend that we see in Brazil. And quite honestly, that we see elsewhere in the world. That is something that we are also expecting to see going forward.

是的。我認為從歷史上看，拖欠率通常在第四季度較低，而每年第一季較高。這是我們在巴西看到的正常季節性趨勢。坦白說，我們在世界其他地方也看到了這種情況。這也是我們預計未來仍將看到的。

Next question is coming from Gustavo Schroden from Bradesco.

下一個問題來自 Bradesco 的 Gustavo Schroden。

Can you hear me?

你聽得到我嗎？

Yes. We can year you.

是的。我們可以幫你。

It's a very simple question. I just would like to understand that -- how was the impact from the higher cash position due to the proceeds from IPO in your interest income, especially because we could see the trading gains were stronger this quarter? I just would like to understand how was the impact. And what should we expect in terms of consumption of these proceeds?

這是一個非常簡單的問題。我只是想了解一下——IPO收益帶來的更高現金狀況對你們的利息收入有何影響，尤其是在我們可以看到本季交易收益更強勁的情況下？我只是想了解這種影響如何。對於這些收益的使用，我們應該預期會怎樣？

Gustavo, this is Lago. Thanks so much for your question. The contribution of the proceeds of the IPO to our revenues in 2021 or in the fourth quarter of 2021 has been very, very small. We basically IPO'd and the financial settlement of the transaction happened towards mid-December. And the exercise of the greenshoe actually happened in the first week of January. So there has been little impact of no -- of proceeds.

古斯塔沃，我是拉戈。非常感謝您的提問。 IPO 所得對我們 2021 年或 2021 年第四季的營收貢獻非常非常小。我們基本上是在 12 月中旬完成 IPO 並完成財務結算的。而綠鞋機制的行使其實是在 1 月的第一週。因此，收益幾乎沒有影響。

In terms of trading gains, it's a great opportunity for us to clarify. If you take a look at our interest revenues, it is basically compounded by 3 things: the interest that we earn on credit card, the interest that we earn on personal loans and the interest that we earn on our cash. The financial statement describes this as gains and losses on financial instruments, but they are nothing more than the evolution of our very large investments in treasury bonds. So we have a very conservative cash policy and treasury management, and we expect to continue to have very conservative policies going forward.

就交易收益而言，這對我們來說是一個很好的澄清機會。如果你看一下我們的利息收入，你會發現它基本上是由三個部分組成的：信用卡利息、個人貸款利息、現金利息。財務報表將其描述為金融工具的損益，但它們只不過是我們巨額國債投資的演變。因此，我們的現金政策和資金管理非常保守，我們預計未來將繼續保持非常保守的政策。

Your third question was on the use of proceeds of the IPO, if I'm not mistaken. And we do expect to use this for working capital and general corporate purpose in general. But I would say that, primarily, to expand and fuel our international growth in Mexico and Colombia, we are very bullish on the potential of those 2 countries. If you take a look at just the sheer size of Brazil, Mexico and Colombia combined, those 3 countries account for about 60% to 62% of the GDP and population of Brazil. And Mexico and Colombia combined have a population that is almost the same size of Brazil.

如果我沒記錯的話，您的第三個問題是關於IPO所得款項的用途。我們確實預計這筆資金將用於營運資金和一般公司用途。但我想說，這主要是為了擴大和推動我們在墨西哥和哥倫比亞的國際成長，我們非常看好這兩個國家的潛力。如果僅從巴西、墨西哥和哥倫比亞三國的面積來看，這三個國家的GDP和人口約佔巴西的60%至62%。而墨西哥和哥倫比亞的人口總和幾乎與巴西相當。

We have about 30% of the adult population of Brazil being active customers of Nu. We have less than 1% of the combined population of Mexico and Colombia being customers of Nu. So I think a relevant portion of the IPO proceeds will be directed towards our international expansion in those 2 countries.

巴西約有30%的成年人口是Nu的活躍用戶。墨西哥和哥倫比亞的Nu用戶總數不到1%。因此，我認為IPO募集資金的相當一部分將用於我們在這兩個國家的國際擴張。

Very clear, Lago. And just a follow-up on your interest income. It was very strong indeed. And I'd like to understand how have you seen the repricing process given the high interest rates? I mean when we talk to the other banks, they are saying that some competition and when we compare for the last interest rate hikes, this cycle has been more difficult to reprice. I'd like to understand how do you see that and how Nubank has been able to reprice?

非常清楚，Lago。我想問一下您的利息收入。確實非常強勁。我想了解一下，在高利率的情況下，您如何看待重新定價的過程？我的意思是，當我們與其他銀行交談時，他們表示存在一些競爭，而且與上次升息相比，這次週期的重新定價更加困難。我想了解一下，您如何看待這種情況，以及 Nubank 是如何進行重新定價的？

No, it's a great question, Gustavo. And we have historically seen in the asset classes in which we play, credit card and personal loans, that repricing has been faster than what we have seen in many other asset classes. In fact, once we see the reports that have been put out by the Brazilian Central Bank over the course of the last 6 months, you have seen that the market, in general, and with respect to credit card and personal loans, has been able to reprice relatively fast and not only defend net interest margin, but also even expand marginally the net interest margin in general.

不，古斯塔沃，這個問題問得很好。我們過去看到，在我們投資的資產類別——信用卡和個人貸款——中，重新定價的速度比許多其他資產類別都要快。事實上，從巴西央行過去6個月發布的報告來看，你會發現，整體而言，就信用卡和個人貸款而言，市場能夠相對較快地重新定價，不僅能夠維持淨息差，甚至還能略微提高整體淨利差。

We at Nubank, however, we expect that we will always be very competitive in terms of pricing, primarily in personal loans. But we will and we have kind of been very fast and swift in reposition and repricing our products accordingly. We have not seen and we do not experience and we would not expect to see any material challenge in repricing short-term credit products going forward.

然而，Nubank 預計在定價方面（尤其是在個人貸款方面）將始終保持極高的競爭力。但我們會並且已經非常迅速地重新定位和定價我們的產品。我們目前為止沒有遇到、也沒有經歷過、我們預計未來短期信貸產品重新定價方面也不會遇到任何重大挑戰。

Next question is coming from Alexander Markgraff from KeyBanc.

下一個問題來自 KeyBanc 的 Alexander Markgraff。

A couple of questions. Just first, around credit, just more qualitatively in your baseline scenario, do you anticipate taking a more conservative approach to credit underwriting in '22 versus '21? If so, are there certain segments of the retail market that you might see as is more affected by this kind of change in underwriting stance? And if not, do you see an opportunity to grow with customer segments to the extent that some of your peers are maybe pulling away from in a more challenging environment?

幾個問題。首先，關於信貸，從更定性的基準情境來看，您是否預期2022年相比2021年，信貸核保會採取更為保守的策略？如果是這樣，您是否認為零售市場的某些細分市場會受到這種承保策略變化的更大影響？如果不是，您是否認為在更具挑戰性的環境中，您的一些同行可能會逐漸放棄，而您認為在客戶細分領域中，存在著共同成長的機會？

Alexander, this is Youssef. Thanks for the question. So again, our basic underwriting stance is always to underwrite to future risk worsening. Like I said, we expect and we underwrite every loan, every credit card grant to an expectation of -- that it will go through a downturn and it needs to be NPV-positive in a downturn. So given that, we feel comfortable continuing with our growth trajectory.

亞歷山大，我是尤素夫。謝謝你的提問。再次強調，我們的基本核保立場始終是承保未來風險的惡化。正如我所說，我們預期，並且我們承保的每一筆貸款、每一張信用卡，都預期它會經歷經濟低迷期，而且在經濟低迷時期，它的淨現值必須為正。因此，我們有信心繼續保持成長軌跡。

But that being said, we keep -- we're keeping a very close eye on monitoring our various segments and products, looking at lead against delinquencies, looking at the general macro environment. And we feel prepared to both pull back, if needed, in places where we see degradation that is faster or more severe than we assume or to take advantage of opportunities conversely where we see a competitive window to grow market share faster or provide more competitive offers to customers.

話雖如此，我們仍在密切關注各個細分市場和產品，關注違約率，並關注整體宏觀環境。我們做好準備，在必要時撤退，因為我們發現衰退速度比我們預想的更快或更嚴重；或者，相反，當我們發現競爭窗口期，可以更快地擴大市場份額或為客戶提供更具競爭力的報價時，我們也會抓住機會。

And then just quickly on marketing expense, came in a bit lower than we had anticipated. Maybe just, again, kind of qualitatively speak to priorities with respect to marketing expense in '22. How do you plan to balance more top-of-funnel type efforts versus targeted spend to drive adoption of some of the newer products that you called out this quarter?

然後，行銷費用比我們預期的要低一些。或許，我們只是從定性的角度來談談2022年行銷費用的優先事項。您計劃如何在漏斗頂端的投入和定向支出之間取得平衡，以推動您在本季度提到的一些新產品的採用？

Hello? Lago, you there?

你好？ Lago，你在嗎？

Yes, sorry. We couldn't -- Fede and I could not hear. Can you repeat the question, please? I apologize.

是的，抱歉。我們聽不見──費德和我聽不見。你能再問一次嗎？很抱歉。

Yes. This is Alex. Sorry about that. Just with respect to marketing expense, it came in a bit lower than we had anticipated this quarter. Just Wondering if you can speak to, again, qualitatively priorities for '22 and how you plan to balance some more top-of-funnel type marketing spend versus perhaps more targeted spend to drive adoption of some of the newer products that were called out this quarter?

是的，我是亞歷克斯。抱歉。關於行銷費用，本季的支出略低於我們的預期。您能否再次談談2022年的定性重點，以及您計劃如何平衡一些漏斗頂端的營銷支出和一些更有針對性的支出，以推動本季度推出的一些新產品的採用？

Yes. No, it's a great question. We do expect that we will continue to have a very strategic marketing spend, especially on paid marketing. I think our customer acquisition cost, as we mentioned at the beginning of the call, has been among the lowest that we have seen in the market. We have a customer acquisition cost of about $5 per customer, of which paid marketing accounts for only $1.

是的，不，這個問題問得很好。我們確實預期會繼續進行非常有策略性的行銷支出，尤其是在付費行銷方面。正如我們在電話會議開始時所提到的，我們的客戶獲取成本一直是市場上最低的。我們的客戶獲取成本約為每位客戶5美元，其中付費行銷僅佔1美元。

We expect that as we -- going forward that this will go up and we will lean in more aggressively on customer acquisitions, not only in Brazil, but primarily in Mexico and Colombia, but we should not expect to see any material deviation from the LTV to CAC equations that we have shown to the market going forward. So I would expect that marketing will slightly go up, but it will not be a stepping change to what we have seen in the past.

我們預計，未來這一數字將會上升，我們將更加積極地推進客戶獲取，不僅在巴西，而且主要在墨西哥和哥倫比亞。但我們預計，未來我們向市場展示的LTV（生命週期價值）與CAC（客戶獲取成本）的等式不會出現任何實質偏差。因此，我預期行銷規模會略有上升，但與過去相比，不會出現階躍式變化。

We do see an opportunity, and we will probably be investing a little bit more marketing in repositioning the product better in certain segments where we're not that well known. So we launched Ultravioleta, which is our product directed towards high-income population in Brazil last year. We're very excited so far with what we've seen. There is an opportunity to build more of that brand in that segment. And we will be doing that. We also announced to be one of the sponsors of the FIFA World Cup. So that will -- there will be some marketing investments surrounding that specific event.

我們確實看到了機會，我們可能會在行銷方面投入更多資金，在一些我們知名度尚不高的細分市場中更好地重新定位產品。所以我們去年推出了Ultravioleta，這是我們針對巴西高收入者的產品。到目前為止，我們對目前所取得的成果感到非常興奮。在這個細分市場，我們有機會進一步打造我們的品牌。我們也會這樣做。我們也宣布成為FIFA世界盃的贊助商之一。因此，圍繞這項特定賽事，我們會進行一些行銷投資。

So we are actively asking ourselves the question is, are we actually spending too little? Because when you look at the LTV/CAC calculations that we even discussed a lot during the IPO, in a market that has become more competitive, with the type of capital that we have and the type of returns that we see in that LTV/CAC, there is an opportunity to actually be even a bit more aggressive.

所以，我們一直在問自己一個問題：我們真的投入太少了嗎？因為考慮到我們在IPO期間就討論過的LTV/CAC計算方法，在一個競爭日益激烈的市場中，憑藉我們現有的資本以及LTV/CAC帶來的回報，我們實際上有機會採取更激進的策略。

So that is sort of the question that we're always balancing. But in general, you could even double CAC and still not really move the needle in terms of the LTV/CAC that we're seeing in some of the customer segments.

所以這是我們一直在權衡的問題。但總體而言，即使CAC翻倍，我們在某些​​客戶群中看到的LTV/CAC比率仍然不會有太大變化。

Next question is filing from Pedro Leduc from Itaú.

下一個問題來自伊塔烏的佩德羅·勒杜克 (Pedro Leduc)。

A little bit on back -- sorry, on the NPLs. You showed a good behavior, and you've shown both credit cards and personal loans on that chart. If we could try and dig in here a little bit, maybe how each of these lines behave. I know one is rather recent. And if you could remind us if you have a relevant renegotiated book and what your strategy is for recoveries, both in terms of internal efforts, if you're engaged or plan on doing selling of portfolios as a strategy to mitigate risk. Just your -- picking your brain here.

稍微回顧一下——抱歉，關於不良貸款。您展現了良好的表現，並且在圖表中同時顯示了信用卡和個人貸款。如果我們可以深入探討一下，也許可以看看每條線的表現如何。我知道其中一條是最近才出現的。如果您能提醒我們一下，您是否有相關的重新協商的帳簿，以及您的回收策略是什麼，包括內部努力，以及您是否正在或計劃出售投資組合作為降低風險的策略。只是——在這裡請您思考一下。

Pedro, this is Youssef. Thank you for the question. So let me try to address them one by one. You are right. In terms of both credit cards and lending, both products have generally performed as expected in terms of NPLs and delinquencies. We've seen that same gradual return to pre-COVID levels in both. They're actually slightly below those levels, but trending gradually towards that, which has been our baseline expectation.

佩德羅，我是尤素夫。謝謝你的提問。那麼，讓我試著逐一解答。你說得對。就信用卡和貸款而言，不良貸款和拖欠率的表現總體上符合預期。我們看到，這兩種產品都逐漸恢復到了疫情前的水準。事實上，它們略低於疫情前的水平，但正逐漸向疫情前的水平靠攏，這也是我們一直以來的預期。

You're asking about renegotiations. So we do, do -- provide that option to customers. We take a pretty conservative approach to renegotiations of loans, and we follow regulatory guidance around that and provision accordingly. If you look at our renegotiation volumes, this is something we monitor in terms of the volume and the performance of renegotiated loans. It has been remarkably stable in the last, I would say, 12 months or so, or even more than that. So there has been no real change in that approach over the last several quarters.

您問的是重新談判的問題。我們確實為客戶提供了這種選擇。我們對貸款重新談判採取相當保守的態度，並遵循相關的監管指導，並據此提列撥備。如果您查看我們的重新協商貸款額度，您會發現我們會密切注意重新協商貸款的額度和表現。在過去大約12個月甚至更長的時間裡，這項數據一直非常穩定。因此，在過去幾個季度中，我們的做法並沒有發生真正的變化。

You were also asking about asset sales. This is not something that we have done in the fourth quarter, but it is a lever that would be part of things we might do in the future should the conditions account for that.

您也提到了資產出售。我們在第四季還沒有這樣做，但如果情況允許，這將成為我們未來可能採取的措施之一。

And Pedro, if I may just add to this and following maybe a discussion that we may have had in the past, is even the refinancing or the restructurings that we do in credit card, they are entailed within our credit card delinquency and provision numbers and they do not affect or influence our business and personal loans. So super important for us to keep those 2 products completely separate, and we don't use personal loans to affect positively or negatively the delinquency of credit card.

佩德羅，請允許我補充一下，根據我們之前可能討論過的一點，即使是我們信用卡業務的再融資或重組，也包含在信用卡拖欠率和撥備數據中，不會影響我們的商業貸款和個人貸款。因此，對我們來說，將這兩種產品完全分開至關重要，我們不會利用個人貸款對信用卡拖欠率產生正面或負面的影響。

That's very useful from Youssef and Guilherme. And especially the earlier comments on the level of the book being stable, that's very good.

尤瑟夫和吉列爾梅的評價非常實用。尤其是之前關於本書水平穩定的評論，非常好。

Next question and last question is coming from Mario Pierry from Bank of America.

下一個問題也是最後一個問題來自美國銀行的 Mario Pierry。

Let me ask you 2 questions, they're both follow-ups. One -- the first one is when you mentioned that you have a very high NPS score on your retail loans. I wanted to understand a little bit better, what gives you a high NPS? Is it that you're charging a lower interest rates? You're making more credit available? Or what exactly drives a high NPS score in a retail loan?

我想問您兩個問題，都是後續問題。第一個問題是，您提到您的零售貸款的NPS評分非常高。我想進一步了解一下，是什麼讓你們的NPS評分這麼高？是因為你們收取較低的利率？是因為你們提供了更多的信貸？還是說，究竟是什麼推動了零售貸款的NPS評分這麼高？

And if I can tie that in with a previous question in terms of the repricing of these loans, right? As you mentioned, your deposits -- your retail deposits to individuals, they're basically linked to CDI. So as the CDI has gone up, you are repricing your portfolio, as you mentioned. But are you able to fully pass on these higher funding costs to your clients? Or are your spreads contrasting a little bit? So that's the first question. Then I'll ask the second follow-up.

我可以把這個問題和之前關於這些貸款重新定價的問題連結起來嗎？正如您所提到的，您的存款—您的個人零售存款，基本上與CDI掛鉤。因此，隨著CDI的上升，您正在重新定價您的投資組合，正如您所說。但是，您能將這些更高的融資成本完全轉嫁給您的客戶嗎？或者說，您的利差會略有差異嗎？這是第一個問題。然後我會問第二個後續問題。

Mario, thank you for your questions. First, on the NPS on loans, it ends up being always a bit of a combination of better products or better quality at lower costs. We tend to operate our products on both ends. And on the personal loans, specifically, the higher quality or better product is a function of the user experience. The fact that consumers can get a loan, it's a very easy process to get. You could get it immediately deposited in your bank account.

馬裡奧，謝謝你的提問。首先，關於貸款的淨推薦值（NPS），最終總是會體現在更優產品或更高品質與更低成本的結合。我們傾向於在兩端經營我們的產品。具體來說，就個人貸款而言，更高品質或更優質的產品取決於用戶體驗。事實上，消費者可以獲得貸款，這是一個非常方便的流程。貸款可以立即存入你的銀行帳戶。

We have real-time algorithms that are understanding consumer patterns. And every time our algorithms are able to approve a loan, the consumer gets a message that a loan now is available. And should that person needs any support, it's very easy to reach our customer support team and really answer any questions. So that's kind of on the user quality side is the digital aspect and the consumer support.

我們擁有即時演算法來理解消費者的模式。每當我們的演算法批准貸款時，消費者都會收到一條訊息，告知他們現在可以申請貸款。如果消費者需要任何支持，可以非常輕鬆地聯繫我們的客戶支援團隊，並得到實際的解答。所以，從使用者品質的角度來看，這體現在數位化和消費者支援方面。

And we generally also offer that at a lower cost. So we try to price today at something about 30% below the market average. And we tend to be very -- we want to maintain that aggressive kind of pricing to maintain this equation and ultimately drive into a very high NPS. So that's the NPS side.

而我們通常也會以較低的成本提供這些服務。所以我們現在的定價盡量低於市場平均的30%左右。我們傾向於維持這種激進的定價策略，以維持這種平衡，最終實現非常高的NPS（淨推薦值）。這就是NPS方面。

On the cost of CDI, we actually -- we effectively pass all of -- are able to pass 100% of that CDI increase to consumers with a bit of benefit in the account for small businesses where we do not offer 100% of CDI as part of the value proposition. We're not offering any yield. So we actually benefit -- net benefit on an increasing CDI environment from that perspective.

關於CDI的成本，我們實際上──我們有效地──能夠將CDI成長的全部成本轉嫁給消費者，同時，對於那些我們未提供100% CDI作為價值主張一部分的小型企業，我們還能從中獲得一些收益。我們沒有提供任何收益。因此，從這個角度來看，我們實際上受益於CDI成長的淨收益。

And Mario, if I may just add to what David said on the interest rate. It -- usually rising interest rates is very positive for consumer banking. And I think it's no exception for us. It's neutral to net positive for us. But I would just highlight our -- the structure of our balance sheet, which is very simple, right?

馬裡奧，請容許我補充大衛關於利率的問題。通常來說，利率上升對消費銀行業務非常有利。我認為我們也不例外。利率上升對我們而言是中性甚至淨利好。但我只想強調一下我們的資產負債表結構，它很簡單，對吧？

So on the right side of the balance sheet, we have $9 billion of interest-bearing liabilities, for which we pay 100% of CDI, as we mentioned; $6 billion of noninterest-bearing liabilities and $4 billion of equity, total $19 billion. On the left-hand side of the balance sheet, we have $13 billion of cash and equivalents, $2 billion of interest-earning credit portfolio and $5 billion of non-earning credit profile, which is the credit card receivables, also, of course, totaling $19 billion.

因此，在資產負債表的右側，我們有90億美元的計息負債，正如我們所提到的，我們為其支付了100%的CDI；60億美元的非計息負債和40億美元的股東權益，總計190億美元。在資產負債表的左側，我們有130億美元的現金及等價物、20億美元的生息信貸組合和50億美元的非生息信貸組合，即信用卡應收款，當然，總計也達到190億美元。

So when interest rates go up, the cost on our $9 billion interest-bearing liabilities go up, but the revenues on our $15 billion interest-earning assets go up. So it's a net positive for us. Just wanted to highlight kind of the overall structure of the balance sheet, and therefore, the impact of interest rates to our business.

因此，當利率上升時，我們90億美元計息負債的成本會上升，但我們150億美元生息資產的收入也會上升。所以這對我們來說是淨利好。我只是想強調資產負債表的整體結構，以及利率對我們業務的影響。

Okay. No, that's helpful. And then my second question is related to your client base in Mexico, right? As you mentioned, you already have 1.4 million clients. It's about 2.5% of your client base. So just help us think here, at what percentage should Mexico be of your total clients by the end of next 2 years? And how should we think about the profitability of a Mexican customer versus a Brazilian customer? Do you see any significant differences in our parts between Mexico and Brazil?

好的。不，這很有幫助。我的第二個問題是關於你們在墨西哥的客戶群的，對嗎？正如你所提到的，你們已經有140萬客戶了，大約佔你們客戶群的2.5%。所以，請你幫我們想想，到未來兩年，墨西哥應該佔你們客戶總數的多少？我們該如何看待墨西哥客戶和巴西客戶的獲利能力？你覺得我們在墨西哥和巴西的業務有顯著差異嗎？

Mario, it's a great question. So I think in terms of population, I think -- sorry, in terms of number of customers, overall, we would expect that, in the long term, the percentage of our customer base in Mexico could basically represent or mirror the population in Brazil and Mexico. Eventually, with the upside case to be made in Mexico, which is where banking penetration, card penetration is so much lower than Brazil. Our relative market share in Mexico can eventually prove to be even greater than it is in Brazil.

馬裡奧，這個問題問得很好。所以我認為，就人口數量而言，抱歉，就客戶數量而言，總體而言，我們預計，從長遠來看，我們在墨西哥的客戶群比例基本上可以代表或反映巴西和墨西哥的人口。最終，考慮到墨西哥的有利因素，因為墨西哥的銀行普及率和信用卡普及率遠低於巴西。我們在墨西哥的相對市場份額最終可能會比巴西更高。

In terms of profitability of the customers in Brazil and profitability of the customers in Mexico, the ARPAC of the customers in Mexico, we expect to be slightly lower in the short term than the ARPAC of our customers in Brazil, especially because we're going to be launching there with credit card and bank accounts in the coming 2 to 3 years.

就巴西客戶的獲利能力和墨西哥客戶的獲利能力而言，我們預計墨西哥客戶的 ARPAC 在短期內會略低於巴西客戶的 ARPAC，特別是因為我們將在未來 2 到 3 年內在巴西推出信用卡和銀行帳戶。

Now the flip side to that is that the credit card is a much more interest-bearing, balance-heavy product in Mexico compared to Brazil, and therefore, the unit economics there can be even healthier. In general, however, we expect that the ARPAC of a Mexican consumer will be anywhere 20% to 30% lower than the ARPAC of a Brazilian consumer in the long term.

另一方面，與巴西相比，墨西哥的信用卡利息更高、餘額更高，因此墨西哥的單位經濟效益可能更佳。不過，總體而言，我們預計墨西哥消費者的長期平均每筆消費金額 (ARPAC) 將比巴西消費者低 20% 到 30%。

And this difference in ARPAC, again, does it reflect in a lower disposable income or lower income in Mexico? Or does it mean that your ability to cross-sell products in Mexico should be lower than in Brazil?

那麼，ARPAC 的這種差異是否反映出墨西哥較低的可支配所得或所得水準？或者這是否意味著你在墨西哥交叉銷售產品的能力應該低於巴西？

No, I think the ability to cross-sell products in Mexico should be as good as it is in Brazil. So I don't think it is a matter of product cross-sell potential. It's a matter of timing. It will take us more time to achieve the product portfolio that we have in Mexico. So if you take a look over the course of the next 5 years, we think that the ARPAC of the Brazilian consumer will still be slightly higher than the ARPAC of an average Mexican consumer that are customers of Nubank.

不，我認為墨西哥的交叉銷售能力應該和巴西一樣好。所以我認為這不是產品交叉銷售潛力的問題，而是時機問題。我們需要更多時間才能實現我們在墨西哥現有的產品組合。所以，如果展望未來5年，我們認為巴西消費者的平均每筆交易成本（ARPAC）仍將略高於Nubank普通墨西哥消費者的平均每筆交易成本（ARPAC）。

If you take a look, in fact, in terms of disposable income, then maybe the best proxy for that is average GDP per capita. The GDP per capita of Mexico is about 25% -- 20% to 25% higher than Brazil. So there's a case that in the very long term, the Mexican consumer could be as profitable, if not more, than the Brazilian consumer. That is not what we have in our mind for the next 3 to 5 years because of the stage of maturation of the operations in those 2 countries.

事實上，如果你從可支配所得的角度來看，那麼人均GDP或許是衡量這個指標的最佳指標。墨西哥的人均GDP比巴西高出約25%——20%到25%。因此，從長遠來看，墨西哥消費者的獲利能力可能與巴西消費者持平，甚至更高。但由於這兩個國家的營運尚處於成熟階段，我們預計未來3到5年內不會出現這種情況。

That takes care of the questions. I'm just going to pass the floor to David for closing remarks, and we can wrap the call.

問題就到這裡。我現在把發言權交給David，請他做最後發言，然後我們就可以結束通話了。

Everyone, thank you very much for your time. It was a pleasure to talk about our results. We're very excited about what's coming ahead for Nu, and we look forward to continue delivering that customer obsession and those financial results that come together with that. Thank you very much for your time.

各位，非常感謝你們抽出時間。很高興能和大家分享我們的業績。我們對 Nu 的未來充滿期待，並期待繼續秉持客戶至上的理念，並取得優異的財務表現。非常感謝你們抽出時間。

The Nu Holdings conference call has now concluded. Thank you for attending today's presentation. You may now disconnect.

Nu Holdings 電話會議現已結束。感謝您參加今天的演講。您可以斷開連線了。