Mount Logan Capital Inc (MLCI) 2023 Q2 法說會逐字稿

Good morning, and welcome to 180 Degree Capital Corp.'s Second Quarter 2023 Financial Results Update Call. This is Daniel Wolfe, President, Portfolio Manager of 180 Degree Capital. Kevin Rendino, our Chief Executive Officer and Portfolio Manager, and I would like to welcome you to our call this morning. (Operator Instructions) I would like to remind participants that this call is being recorded, and that we will be referring to a slide deck that we have posted on our Investor Relations website at ir.180degreecapital.com under Financial Results.

早上好，歡迎參加 180 Degree Capital Corp. 2023 年第二季財務業績更新電話會議。我是 180 Degree Capital 總裁兼投資組合經理 Daniel Wolfe。我們的執行長兼投資組合經理 Kevin Rendino 和我歡迎您參加今天上午的電話會議。（操作員指示）我想提醒參與者，本次通話正在錄音，我們將參考我們在投資者關係網站 ir.180degreecapital.com 的「財務結果」下發布的幻燈片。

Please turn to our Safe Harbor statement on Slide 2. This presentation may contain statements of a forward-looking nature related to future events. Statements contained in this presentation that are forward-looking statements are intended to be made pursuant to the Safe Harbor provisions of the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995. These forward-looking statements are subject to the inherent uncertainties in predicting future results and conditions. These statements reflect the company's current beliefs, and a number of important factors could cause actual results to differ materially from those expressed herein.

請參閱投影片 2 上的安全港聲明。本簡報可能包含與未來事件相關的前瞻性陳述。本簡報中包含的前瞻性聲明是根據 1995 年私人證券訴訟改革法案的安全港條款做出的。這些前瞻性陳述受預測未來結果和條件的固有不確定性的影響。這些聲明反映了公司目前的信念，許多重要因素可能導致實際結果與本文表達的結果有重大差異。

Please see the company's filings with the Securities and Exchange Commission for a more detailed discussion of the risks and uncertainties associated with our business that could affect our actual results. Except as otherwise required by federal securities laws, 180 Degree Capital Corp. undertakes no obligation to update or revise these forward-looking statements to reflect new events or uncertainties.

請參閱公司向美國證券交易委員會提交的文件，以更詳細地了解與我們的業務相關的可能影響我們實際結果的風險和不確定性。除非聯邦證券法另有要求，180 Degree Capital Corp. 不承擔更新或修改這些前瞻性陳述以反映新事件或不確定性的義務。

I would now like to turn the call over to Kevin.

現在我想把電話轉給凱文。

Thank you, Daniel, and good morning, everyone. We'll start on Slide 3. We purposely waited a little longer to report our earnings this cycle because we wanted some of our portfolio holdings to report and announce some of their own news, news that we were well aware was occurring behind the scenes. You'll see the news from Arena Group last night of a transformational, game-changing announcement of a strategic investment and elimination of any concerns with their debt. We'll have more on that later. In fact, I'll focus most of this call on specific companies that we own and the activism that we have pursued.

謝謝你，丹尼爾，大家早安。我們將從幻燈片 3 開始。我們特意等了更長時間才報告本週期的收益，因為我們希望我們的一些投資組合能夠報告並宣布一些他們自己的消息，我們很清楚這些消息是在幕後發生的。您將看到昨晚 Arena Group 發布的具有變革意義、改變遊戲規則的策略性投資公告，以及消除其債務的任何擔憂。我們稍後會對此進行更多討論。事實上，我將主要關注我們擁有的特定公司以及我們所追求的積極行動。

For the quarter itself, it wasn't a good one. Our NAV declined 4.6% on the back of a 5.8% decline in our public holdings. This was led by declines in IVAC, Parabellum, RYAM and Comscore. We did have good quarters from our holdings in Potbelly, Commercial Vehicle Group and Quantum D-Wave, but all in all, it was a very disappointing quarter. As noted in our prior press release, we did purchase 373,679 shares of our outstanding stock at $4.41 because despite what was a challenging quarter and sort of a nothing year through these first 6 months, our share price still trades at a 30% discount for our book value and actually less than the cash and liquid securities that we have on our balance sheet.

就本季而言，這並不是一個好季度。由於我們的公眾持股量下降了 5.8%，我們的資產淨值也下降了 4.6%。其中，IVAC、Parabellum、RYAM 和 Comscore 的股價下跌最為顯著。我們持有的 Potbelly、Commercial Vehicle Group 和 Quantum D-Wave 股票確實表現不錯，但總的來說，這是一個非常令人失望的季度。正如我們之前的新聞稿中所述，我們確實以每股 4.41 美元的價格購買了 373,679 股流通股，因為儘管這是一個充滿挑戰的季度，而且前 6 個月是毫無進展的一年，但我們的股價仍然比賬面價值低 30%，實際上低於我們資產負債表上的現金和流動證券。

Moving ahead to Slide 5. This is a chart of the trend in our cash and securities of public companies. We were able to quadruple the amount from the time we started until November of 2021, but the performance of our holdings through this bear market in the last 18 months has led to a decline in the value of these assets. All that said, our share price, which I have said, traded at nearly a 30% discount to our book value and also trades at a 20% discount to our cash and liquid securities.

移至投影片 5。這是我們現金和上市公司證券的趨勢圖。從開始到 2021 年 11 月，我們的持倉量增加了四倍，但過去 18 個月熊市期間我們的持股表現導致這些資產的價值下降。儘管如此，正如我所說，我們的股價比我們的帳面價值低近 30%，比我們的現金和流動證券低 20%。

Skipping to Slide 6, we had an opposite quarter than our first quarter. To say this has been a trying, frustrating market to wade through was quite the understatement. Despite an economy that hasn't rolled over, ingenerably favorable news from the majority of our holdings were virtually flat year-to-date, slightly behind the Russell Microcap Index and slightly ahead of the Russell Microcap Value Index. Through June, the Russell Microcap Index has advanced 1.8%. This compares to the almost 40% gain for the NASDAQ 100.

跳到幻燈片 6，我們有一個與第一季相反的季度。說這是一個充滿挑戰和挫折的市場，這只是輕描淡寫。儘管經濟尚未復甦，但我們持有的大部分股票年初至今的利多消息基本持平，略低於羅素微型股指數，略高於羅素微型股價值指數。截至 6 月份，羅素微型股指數已上漲 1.8%。相比之下，那斯達克 100 指數上漲了近 40%。

We're back to a market that focused on 7 companies, companies that -- companies like NVIDIA, Meta, Apple, Microsoft and a few others, at the expense of almost anything else. It's beyond frustrating. That said, just because we haven't been rewarded for our investments in our holdings doesn't mean we won't eventually. We've been through plenty of bear markets and soft performance periods to know that when we come out of it, we will enjoy significant price appreciation in the value of so many of our holdings, and our NAV will advance as a result. We aren't sitting back waiting for things to happen. We have used our activist approach across many of our holdings. Some of the activism you see and some of you don't, but it might make sense to highlight how and where we have used it.

我們回到了以前只專注於 7 家公司的市場，這些公司包括 NVIDIA、Meta、Apple、Microsoft 和其他一些公司，而幾乎其他所有公司都被忽視了。這實在令人沮喪。話雖如此，但我們的投資尚未獲得回報並不意味著我們最終不會獲得回報。我們經歷過許多熊市和業績疲軟的時期，我們知道，當我們走出熊市和業績疲軟的時期時，我們持有的許多資產的價值將大幅升值，我們的資產淨值也將隨之上漲。我們不會坐等事情發生。我們在許多持股中都採用了積極主動的策略。有些行動主義你們可以看到，有些則看不到，但強調我們如何以及在何處使用它可能是有意義的。

On Slide 12 is where we started the discussion with many of our names. First, Intevac. After doubling since our initial purchase where we took some money off the table, IVAC decreased from $7.33 to $3.75 this past quarter. The company noted in its Q1 '23 earnings call that its program with Corning was delayed at least a quarter due to Corning's customers pushing out adoption of the new glass IVAC's tool was expected to enable. IVAC had used cash to build inventory for the delivery of its tools with the expectation that the ramp would be faster than it is now expected. Following that announcement, IVAC noted that Seagate canceled over $50 million worth of tool orders that are expected to ship in 2024.

投影片 12 上列出了我們許多人的名字，我們便開始了討論。首先是 Intevac。自從我們首次購買並從中拿走一些錢以來，IVAC 已經翻了一番，但在過去的一個季度，它從 7.33 美元下降到了 3.75 美元。該公司在 23 年第一季財報電話會議上指出，由於康寧的客戶推遲採用 IVAC 工具有望實現的新玻璃，其與康寧的專案至少推遲了一個季度。IVAC 已使用現金建立庫存以用於交付其工具，並預計產量提升的速度將比現在預期的更快。在該公告發布後，IVAC 指出希捷取消了預計於 2024 年發貨的價值超過 5,000 萬美元的工具訂單。

What have we done? We have sent the company a Board-level letter behind the scenes and have spoken with management and the Board highlighting 2 key points. One, while we're bullish on IVAC's new glass tool, it was no longer acceptable for the company to continue to invest in inventory and bleed down the cash for the balance sheet, not until the business actually shows up with actual revenues. The company needs to come up with either an operating plan that is self-sustaining in the short term, or find some alternative to restore value.

我們做了什麼？我們已向公司發送了一封董事會級別的幕後信函，並與管理層和董事會進行了交談，強調了兩個關鍵點。首先，雖然我們看好 IVAC 的新玻璃工具，但該公司繼續投資庫存並減少資產負債表的現金已不再被接受，直到業務真正出現實際收入為止。公司需要製定一個短期內能夠自我維持的營運計劃，或找到一些替代方案來恢復價值。

Subsequent to those conversations, the company has declared it's running a strategic process and announced it had retained Houlihan Lokey to explore strategic alternatives. The company also initiated a cost-cutting program designed to ensure it remains cash flow positive starting as seemly as this year. All in all, the stock is at a silly price. It essentially trades at near cash, with cash likely to grow from here, and the company is in the final stages of qualification with Corning. We like the stock at this price.

在這些對話之後，該公司宣布正在進行一項戰略流程，並宣布已聘請 Houlihan Lokey 來探索戰略替代方案。該公司還啟動了一項成本削減計劃，旨在確保從今年開始保持正現金流。總而言之，該股票的價格非常荒謬。該公司基本上以接近現金的方式進行交易，現金可能會從現在開始成長，而該公司正處於康寧認證的最後階段。我們喜歡這個價格的股票。

Comscore decreased from $1.23 to $0.80 this quarter. Although SCOR missed top line estimates for Q1 in what was a seasonally slow quarter, it reiterated its guidance for significant free cash flow from operations and exiting 2023 with an EBITDA margin of close to 15%. In fact, EBITDA estimates were met last quarter and exceeded this past quarter. That said, SCOR's Board and its preferred holders did not take any steps to resolve concerns and ambiguity -- I can never say the word.

本季度，Comscore 從 1.23 美元降至 0.80 美元。儘管由於季節性疲軟，SCOR 第一季的業績未達預期，但該公司重申了其預期，即實現可觀的營運自由現金流，到 2023 年，EBITDA 利潤率將接近 15%。事實上，EBITDA 上個季度已經達到預期，並且在本季有所超越。話雖如此，SCOR 董事會及其優先股持有人並未採取任何措施來解決擔憂和歧義——我永遠無法說出這個詞。

Ambiguity.

歧義。

Thank you. Ambiguity around the potential special dividend and misalignment between incentives for common and preferred holders. We continue our activist campaign, both with public and private lenders, highlighting lack of corporate governance alignment of interest for all stakeholders to increase the price of Comscore's common stock. SCOR's preferred holders elected to defer their annual dividend of $15 million for future payments estimated to occur by the end of 2023 to provide additional cash for SCOR to invest in its business.

謝謝。潛在特別股利的模糊性以及普通股和優先股股東激勵措施之間的不一致。我們繼續與公共和私人貸款機構進行積極活動，強調公司治理缺乏所有利害關係人的利益一致性，以提高 Comscore 普通股的價格。SCOR 的優先股持有人選擇將其 1500 萬美元的年度股息推遲到預計 2023 年底的未來支付，以便為 SCOR 投資其業務提供更多現金。

You've seen our activism. It's been public, and it will continue because there was so much inherent value that has not yet been unlocked by this company. The market continues to discount the same news over and over and over again. Generally speaking, Comscore's stock has gone from $5 to a 52-week low of $0.63 because its Board of Directors has thus far failed to act on suggestions that we and other investors have independently provided to them that we believe can reverse the trend of the shareholder destruction that has occurred under their watch.

你已經看到了我們的積極行動。它已經上市，並將繼續下去，因為該公司還有很多內在價值尚未釋放。市場不斷地一遍又一遍地低估同樣的消息。總體而言，Comscore 的股價已從 5 美元跌至 52 週低點 0.63 美元，因為其董事會迄今未能根據我們和其他投資者獨立向他們提供的建議採取行動，我們認為這些建議可以扭轉他們任期內發生的股東毀滅趨勢。

Our activism can be seen in many ways, sometimes in public letters to SCOR and other times behind the scenes. Our intention is always to be constructive and collaborative with the companies that we own. In the case of SCOR, we started with a sense of collaboration regarding our ideas for the company, but came to realize that its Board was being dismissive and unresponsive. We got back the usual, thank you for your letter, and we will share with Board, and then no action or only partial, immaterial action would be taken.

我們的行動主義體現在許多方面，有時是在致 SCOR 的公開信中，有時是在幕後。我們的意圖始終是與我們擁有的公司進行建設性和合作性。就 SCOR 的案例而言，我們一開始對公司的想法抱持著合作的態度，但後來意識到董事會對此不屑一顧，沒有回應。我們收到瞭如往常一樣的回复，感謝您的來信，我們將與董事會分享，然後不會採取任何行動，或者只採取部分的、非實質性的行動。

We realized quickly that the Board was either supremely arrogant, confused with how to create value for all stakeholders or incapable of coming together and agreeing to take action given the different perspectives from the different Board members. Unfortunately, SCOR has been instead focused solely on creating value for themselves and the preferred stockholders. Board compensation is entirely too high, especially considering the track record of failed oversight and shareholder value disruption.

我們很快意識到，董事會要么極其傲慢，要么不清楚如何為所有利益相關者創造價值，要么由於不同董事會成員的觀點不同而無法團結起來並同意採取行動。不幸的是，SCOR 一直只專注於為自己和優先股股東創造價值。董事會薪酬實在太高了，尤其是考慮到其監管失敗和股東價值受損的記錄。

The Board has taken us up on several of our suggestions and finally reduced its compensation by an average of 26% in 2023, but they've only taken small steps when more substantial action is immediately required. We have told the Board how this would play out for the common stock if they continue along their do-nothing path. We take no solace in having been right in our analysis, because being right has led up to us being wrong for 180. We just never thought they wouldn't do anything to attack the capital structure and show better alignment amongst all stakeholders.

董事會採納了我們的幾項建議，並最終在 2023 年將薪酬平均降低了 26%，但他們只是在需要立即採取更實質行動時才採取了小步行動。我們已經告訴董事會，如果他們繼續無所作為，這將對普通股產生怎樣的影響。我們不會因為自己的分析正確而感到安慰，因為正確的分析導致我們錯了 180 倍。我們只是從未想過他們不會採取任何行動來攻擊資本結構並展示所有利益相關者之間更好的協調。

So should SCOR's Board continue to ignore their fiduciary responsibility to common shareholders, we'll resort through a series of fact-based public letters regarding the individuals on the Board who have hijacked what we believe to be SCOR's valuable collection of data assets from the common shareholders and the employees of the company. If they don't want to see their names attached to their level of performance they have generated over the duration of their oversight, then they should fix it with a series of actions and improve the capital structure, align themselves with common shareholders and reverse the trend of the stock performance that has collapsed since their investment.

因此，如果 SCOR 董事會繼續忽視對普通股股東的信託責任，我們將透過一系列基於事實的公開信函，對董事會中的個人進行舉報，這些個人劫持了我們認為是 SCOR 從普通股股東和公司員工那裡收集的寶貴數據資產。如果他們不想看到自己的名字與他們在監督期間所創造的績效水準聯繫在一起，那麼他們應該採取一系列行動來解決這個問題，改善資本結構，與普通股股東保持一致，扭轉自投資以來股價表現暴跌的趨勢。

I don't care that we are small and the players on the Board are represented by John Malone's Liberty Broadband or folks at Cerberus or Charter Communications. SCOR's board has a fiduciary duty to represent all stakeholders. This is all just common sense stuff at this point. While it's patently obvious to anyone that the decline in the stock revolves around the inactivity of the SCOR Board, does that mean that this is the right price for the business? Hardly. In our view, there is no chance this is the right price for Comscore. The Comscore had the same structure 2 years ago when the stock traded at $5. What has changed?

我不在乎我們規模小，也不在乎董事會成員是由約翰馬龍的自由寬頻公司 (Liberty Broadband) 或 Cerberus 或 Charter Communications 的員工代表。SCOR 董事會負有代表所有利害關係人的受託責任。就目前而言，這些都只是常識而已。儘管任何人都清楚，股價下跌與 SCOR 董事會的不活躍有關，但這是否意味著這是該企業的正確價格？幾乎沒有。我們認為，這對 Comscore 來說不可能是一個合適的價格。兩年前，當 Comscore 的股票交易價格為 5 美元時，其結構也是相同的。有什麼變化？

Actually, in spite of weakness in the advertising market and increasing interest rates, SCOR's fundamentals have materially improved. Two years ago when the stock was $5, SCOR's EBITDA was $32 million. The consensus analyst estimate according to Bloomberg for this year is $43 million, and next year is $58 million. Somehow, the story has evolved into an incessant, redundant snakepit of shareholder obsession regarding the capital structure and the intention of the preferred holders.

實際上，儘管廣告市場疲軟且利率上升，SCOR 的基本面已經有了實質改善。兩年前，當股價為 5 美元時，SCOR 的 EBITDA 為 3,200 萬美元。根據彭博社報道，分析師普遍預計今年的營收為 4,300 萬美元，明年的營收為 5,800 萬美元。不知何故，這個故事已經演變成股東對資本結構和優先股持有人意圖的痴迷，無休止且多餘的陷阱。

And while we obviously understand the terms of the preferred stocks, we find it hard to fathom how this issue is the reason for the stock to continue to decline every single day. We believe that the current share price isn't the right price of the business. It would help if the Board would actually get a sense of urgency, get some Wall Street smarts, some leadership and act like fiduciaries. If it does, the stock will go meaningfully higher from where we are today. It really isn't quite complicated.

雖然我們顯然了解優先股的條款，但我們很難理解這個問題如何成為股票每天持續下跌的原因。我們認為目前的股價並不是該企業的合理價格。如果董事會能夠真正有緊迫感，獲得一些華爾街的智慧、一些領導力並像受託人一樣行事，那將會有所幫助。如果確實如此，那麼股價將比現在大幅上漲。它確實不太複雜。

On Synchronoss, we helped the company fix its balance sheet 2 years ago at a much higher price by replacing a very expensive perpetual preferred stock that limited the company's flexibility to streamline its business with materially low cost for financing and equity. Since then, what's happening? Management has run a much better business, achieving EBITDA estimates consistently higher than consensus analyst projection. The result has been Synchronoss' stock goes down.

在 Synchronoss 上，我們兩年前幫助該公司以更高的價格修復了其資產負債表，方法是更換非常昂貴的永久優先股，這限制了該公司以極低的融資和股權成本精簡業務的靈活性。從那時起，發生了什麼事？管理階層經營狀況良好，EBITDA 預估始終高於分析師普遍預期。結果是 Synchronoss 的股票下跌。

In March '23, B. Riley presented a nonbinding offer to purchase Synchronoss for $1.15. The offer kickstarted a full strategic alternatives process. The result, Synchronoss' stock cannot just trade consistently above $1. Synchronoss sells one of its noncore and least contributing asset that nobody even asks about when discussing the performance of the company for up to $14 million, with $7.5 million received at closing. The result, Synchronoss' stock goes down.

1923 年 3 月，B. Riley 提出以 1.15 美元的價格收購 Synchronoss 的非約束性要約。該提議啟動了全面的策略選擇流程。結果是，Synchronoss 的股票交易價格無法持續高於 1 美元。Synchronoss 以高達 1400 萬美元的價格出售了其非核心且貢獻最小的資產之一，在討論公司業績時甚至無人問津，最終收盤價為 750 萬美元。結果，Synchronoss 的股票下跌。

In July '23, Synchronoss successfully negotiated an extension of by far its largest contract to run Verizon's Personal Cloud through 2030, an unbelievable extension of 5 years. The result, Synchronoss' stock increases by 2%. There's always a bear case. In Synchronoss' case, it's reported aggregate revenues which aren't showing growth. That said, the underlying business with the most value is growing and has the highest margins of all of its businesses.

23 年 7 月，Synchronoss 成功談判延長了迄今為止最大的合同，將運行 Verizon 的個人雲至 2030 年，令人難以置信的是延長了 5 年。結果，Synchronoss 的股票上漲了 2%。總是存在著悲觀的情況。就 Synchronoss 而言，其報告的總收入並未顯示成長。也就是說，最有價值的基礎業務正在成長，並且擁有所有業務中最高的利潤率。

Of course, the company -- every company has pluses and minuses. In the case of Synchronoss, however, the majority of the news has been good, not bad. The action of the common stock is a complete head scratcher to us. I often ask myself what would happen to actually have Synchronoss go and trade up to fair value. Coming up with a cure for cancer? An engine that would enable a plane to go from New York to London in 2 hours? It's remarkable and frustrating all at the same time.

當然，每家公司都有優點和缺點。然而，就 Synchronoss 的情況而言，大多數消息都是好消息，而不是壞消息。普通股的走勢對我們來說完全是個難題。我經常問自己，如果 Synchronoss 真的上漲並達到公允價值，會發生什麼事。找到治療癌症的方法了嗎？一種可以讓飛機在兩小時內從紐約飛到倫敦的引擎？這既令人驚奇又令人沮喪。

We have written the Board several notes over the years and are firmly -- and they are firmly aware of our views revolving around them. One, generating free cash flow; and two, asking them whether or not this should be a public company. They are running a process. B. Riley has already bid for the business, and as important, they are right at the critical moment where they are moving from using cash to generating cash. That Verizon contract has been extended and the management team has done a very, very nice job. What started out as what it should have been a floor price of $1.15 because of B. Riley's bid has turned into a bid of a ceiling price. This company, in our estimation, should be worth more than last sale because of its valuable assets.

多年來，我們已向董事會寫過幾份報告，並且堅定地——他們也堅定地意識到我們的觀點是圍繞著他們的。一、產生自由現金流；第二，詢問他們這是否應該成為上市公司。他們正在運行一個進程。B. Riley 已經對該業務進行了競標，同樣重要的是，他們正處於從使用現金轉向產生現金的關鍵時刻。該 Verizon 合約已延長，管理團隊做得非常非常出色。由於 B. Riley 的出價，最初應該是 1.15 美元的底價，但現在卻變成了最高價。我們估計，由於該公司擁有寶貴的資產，其價值應該高於上次出售時的價值。

Arena Group is another one. In a challenging ad environment, Arena Group continues to execute better than its peers with growing revenue and generating $100 million improvement in its EBITDA. The result has been the stock goes down. In July of '23, The Wall Street Journal noted that Group Black is in talks to buy a stake in the company. The result, Arena's stock increases briefly, but then resumes its decline. Arena's largest stockholder, and coincidentally, it's largest debt holder, purchased over $1 million of Arena's stock in the open market. The result of that, Arena's stock goes down.

Arena Group 是另一家這樣的公司。在充滿挑戰的廣告環境中，Arena Group 的表現持續優於同行，營收不斷成長，EBITDA 成長 1 億美元。結果是股票下跌。2023 年 7 月，《華爾街日報》通報 Group Black 正在就收購該公司股份進行談判。結果，Arena 的股價短暫上漲，但隨後又開始下跌。Arena 的最大股東，恰好也是其最大的債務持有人，在公開市場上購買了價值超過 100 萬美元的 Arena 股票。結果是，Arena 的股票下跌。

Why is that the case? The only reason we can possibly come up with is that Arena has had a material amount of debt on its balance sheet that technically comes due at the end of '23. The debt is held by Arena's largest shareholder, B. Riley, who has been purchasing common stock in the open market during this period of price weakness. Does anyone think that B. Riley would be purchasing common stock if it did not plan to renegotiate the debt and be the continued strong supporter of Arena and its common shareholders as they have always been? Are investors that naive? The stock has cost us nearly $1 drop in our NAV over the last year and currently trades at a price that makes little sense to us.

為什麼會這樣呢？我們能想到的唯一原因是，Arena 的資產負債表上有大量債務，從技術上講，這些債務將於 23 年底到期。該債務由 Arena 的最大股東 B. Riley 持有，他在股價疲軟期間一直在公開市場上購買普通股。是否有人認為，如果 B. Riley 不打算重新協商債務並像往常一樣繼續大力支持 Arena 及其普通股股東，它會購買普通股？投資者真的這麼天真嗎？在過去的一年裡，這隻股票導致我們的資產淨值下降了近 1 美元，而目前的交易價格對我們來說毫無意義。

We have seemingly been over the wall and firmly aware of what was happening for the last few months. Last night's announcement is a game changer for Arena Group. First and foremost, the stock has precipitously declined because of the debt due at the end of this year. We can take that off the table now because B. Riley extended the terms 3 years and have taken a straight 10% interest rate on their debt, and this market couldn't be more supportive than B. Riley has been through Arena, and that alone should allow for the stock to double or triple.

我們似乎已經越過了那堵牆，並且清楚地知道過去幾個月發生的事情。昨晚的公告對於 Arena Group 來說具有重大意義。首先，由於今年底到期的債務，該股急劇下跌。我們現在可以不再考慮這個因素，因為 B. Riley 將期限延長了 3 年，並對其債務直接收取了 10% 的利率，而且這個市場的支持力度不可能比 B. Riley 在 Arena 時期更大，僅憑這一點就足以讓股價翻倍或翻三倍。

Then, we have a new sponsor. A wildly successful billionaire who started 5-Hour Energy, who has media assets vis-a-vis local TV stations as well as Bridge Media Network assets, NEWSnet and Sports News, run over the top of streaming sites like Roku and Apple TV. Last night, the story for Arena changed for the better. We don't have to worry about the balance sheet anymore, and the new sponsor is a successful billionaire who wants to own the business and make significant inroads in media. Arena is now part of this platform.

然後，我們有了一個新的贊助商。這位極其成功的億萬富翁創辦了 5-Hour Energy，擁有當地電視台以及 Bridge Media Network 資產、NEWSnet 和 Sports News 等媒體資產，並在 Roku 和 Apple TV 等串流媒體網站上佔據領先地位。昨晚，Arena 的故事有了轉機。我們不必再擔心資產負債表，新的贊助商是一位成功的億萬富翁，他希望擁有這項事業並在媒體領域取得重大進展。Arena 現在是該平台的一部分。

And finally, Potbelly. Sometimes there's nothing for us to do other than see if the activism that we initiated works. In the case of Potbelly, I think we've succeeded. The company -- when we invested in Potbelly, it was because we thought they had a wonderful brand with great customer loyalty, a terrific product, but one that simply needed better Board governance and a new leadership team. Led by Privet and Ancora, the Board changed. We filed a 13D in early 2000, and then soon thereafter, the Board named Steve Cirulis from Panera Bread as their CFO, and Bob Wright from Wendy's as the CEO.

最後是 Potbelly。有時我們除了看看我們發起的行動是否有效之外，沒有別的事可做。就 Potbelly 而言，我認為我們成功了。我們投資 Potbelly 是因為我們認為他們擁有優秀的品牌、極高的客戶忠誠度和出色的產品，但需要更好的董事會治理和新的領導團隊。在 Privet 和 Ancora 的領導下，董事會進行了變革。我們在 2000 年初提交了 13D 文件，此後不久，董事會任命 Panera Bread 的 Steve Cirulis 為財務官，Wendy's 的 Bob Wright 為執行長。

We were fortunate that the Board had already put in place a plan to change the management team. Now under this amazing leadership team, the business is operating better, the company is growing again, and we should be staring in a multiyear growth trajectory which would take the stock significantly higher than where it currently is, which is a price much higher than where we started buying it at back in 2020. We think Potbelly hasn't even started yet in terms of its own growth.

我們很幸運，董事會已經制定了更換管理團隊的計畫。現在，在這支出色的領導團隊的帶領下，業務運作得更好，公司再次實現成長，我們應該著眼於多年的成長軌跡，這將使股價遠高於目前的價格，而這個價格遠高於我們 2020 年開始購買時的價格。我們認為 Potbelly 自身的成長甚至還沒有開始。

Finally, on Slide 22. While this has been a painful period, we remade our company around our new strategy. It isn't new anymore. Nearly 90% of our book is in cash and liquid securities, and as I look at the NAV, I view it more as a bear market book value. Most of our names have nearly 100% upside, which means so does our NAV, which means so does our share price, and that is the reason why I am the second biggest holder of TURN stock and Daniel is the sixth. We plan on making a bunch of money alongside all of our shareholders over the ensuing years, and while this has been a painful year, a painful 18 months actually, we're not deterred in our focus for where we want to take 180 down the road. Daniel?

最後，在第 22 張投影片上。雖然這是一段痛苦的時期，但我們圍繞著新策略重塑了公司。這已經不是什麼新鮮事了。我們的帳面價值中近 90% 是現金和流動證券，而當我查看資產淨值時，我更將其視為熊市帳面價值。我們大多數股票都有近 100% 的上漲空間，這意味著我們的資產淨值也上漲，這意味著我們的股價也上漲，這就是為什麼我是 TURN 股票的第二大持有者，而 Daniel 是第六大持有者。我們計劃在接下來的幾年裡與所有股東一起賺取大量金錢，雖然這是痛苦的一年，實際上是痛苦的 18 個月，但我們並沒有放棄專注於未來想要實現 180 度跨越的目標。丹尼爾？

Thank you, Kevin. Please turn to Slides 23 and 24. 180's remaining private portfolio has only 1 material position, and that's AgBiome. The total remaining value of our remaining legacy private portfolio is approximately $8.6 million, of which $6.1 million is AgBiome and approximately $1.3 million is cash, the proceeds that we expect to receive in April '24 from the sale of TARA to Valo.

謝謝你，凱文。請翻到投影片 23 和 24。180 剩餘的私人投資組合只有 1 個重要部位，那就是 AgBiome。我們剩餘的遺留私人投資組合的總剩餘價值約為 860 萬美元，其中 610 萬美元為 AgBiome，約 130 萬美元為現金，這些收益是我們預計將於 24 年 4 月從將 TARA 出售給 Valo 中獲得的。

This past quarter, we had a markup in AgBiome based on market adjustment factors derived from comparable public companies. In total, the private portfolio raised our NAV by $0.06. There's really not much more to add regarding the legacy portfolio. As Kevin mentioned, it represents approximately 14% of our net assets, and we've taken a business that was headed to 0 and created a new business with a real future and a stable balance sheet.

上個季度，我們根據可比較上市公司的市場調整因素對 AgBiome 進行了加價。總體而言，私人投資組合使我們的資產淨值增加了 0.06 美元。關於遺留投資組合，確實沒有什麼好補充的。正如凱文所提到的，它約占我們淨資產的 14%，我們已經將一個即將走向 0 的業務轉變為一個擁有真正未來和穩定資產負債表的新業務。

Please turn to the next slide. For Q2 '23, our regular operating expenses were approximately $879,000 versus $741,000 the prior year -- $741,000 in the prior year. We will maintain a lean cost structure outside of fixed expenses for being a public company and focusing our expenses on activities solely designed to enhance our investment performance or increase our revenues from managing outside capital. The increase in operating expenses this year was primarily due to the addition of Matt Epstein to our investment team late last summer, and we are pleased to have him aboard.

請翻到下一張投影片。23 年第二季度，我們的常規營運費用約為 879,000 美元，而去年同期為 741,000 美元 - 前一年為 741,000 美元。作為一家上市公司，除了固定費用外，我們將保持精益的成本結構，並將我們的費用集中在旨在提高我們的投資績效或增加我們管理外部資本的收入的活動上。今年營運費用的增加主要是因為去年夏末馬特愛潑斯坦 (Matt Epstein) 加入了我們的投資團隊，我們很高興他能加入我們。

Please turn to Slide 26 and 27. We provide these slides each quarter to enable our shareholders to look at the trend of our total expenses and compensation related as a percentage of net assets. This year, the percentage has increased primarily because of the decline in net assets. We continue to anticipate the reductions in our net operating expenses and will -- our operating expenses as a percentage of net assets will be based on growth in our net assets rather than further reductions in our expenses. We remain committed to treating every dollar of shareholder money with the utmost care and consideration.

請翻到投影片 26 和 27。我們每季都會提供這些投影片，以便我們的股東了解我們的總支出和薪資佔淨資產百分比的趨勢。今年該比例上升主要是因為淨資產下降。我們繼續預期我們的淨營運費用將會減少，並且我們的營運費用佔淨資產的百分比將基於我們的淨資產的成長，而不是進一步減少我們的費用。我們始終致力於以最大的謹慎和考慮來對待股東的每一分錢。

We would now like to open the line for questions.

我們現在願意開放提問專線。

(Operator Instructions) We have no questions in the queue.

（操作員指示）隊列中沒有問題。

Okay. With that, we are always available for any questions that you may have vis-a-vis e-mail. We prefer, obviously, always to be -- to get on the phone with you. So if you have any follow-up or anything that you want to add or ask us...

好的。這樣，我們就可以隨時透過電子郵件解答您的任何問題。顯然，我們總是希望與您通電話。因此，如果您有任何後續問題或任何想要添加或詢問我們的事情...

All right, we actually do have a couple of questions that came through. I apologize. Let's go right here.

好的，我們確實有幾個問題。我很抱歉。我們就去這裡吧。

It's James Elbaor of Marlton. Can you talk a little bit about the share buyback program and how you're thinking about that and return of capital in general?

他是馬爾頓的詹姆斯·埃爾鮑爾。您能否談談股票回購計畫以及您對此以及整體資本回報的看法？

Sure. Thank you for asking. We -- generally speaking, we -- you would always want to buy back stock when your stock trades at such a significant discount to NAV. That's just Graham and Dodd value investing that we've always believed. Having said that, our business is one of investing capital in other businesses, and at 180, the fortunate thing for us is that we have permanent capital in our closed-end funds.

當然。謝謝你的詢問。一般來說，當您的股票交易價格大幅低於資產淨值時，您總是希望回購股票。這正是我們一直相信的葛拉漢和多德價值投資。話雖如此，我們的業務是向其他業務投資資本，而對於 180 來說，幸運的是，我們的封閉式基金中擁有永久資本。

And so once we return that capital vis-a-vis either a dividend and/or a share repurchase program, capital is gone forever, and that is the most precious capital. And by doing that over a long period of time or if you do that too often, you're not going to have a lot of capital to invest in the companies that we want to invest in. So while it's counterintuitive, buying back stock actually hinders our business over the long term because we won't have that capital to invest.

因此，一旦我們以股息和/或股票回購計劃的形式返還該資本，資本就永遠消失了，而這是最寶貴的資本。如果你長期這樣做或太頻繁地這樣做，你將沒有太多的資金來投資我們想要投資的公司。因此，雖然這有悖常理，但回購股票實際上會長期阻礙我們的業務發展，因為我們沒有資本進行投資。

So we've stated from time to time if our stock trades at such a wild discount to our NAV, then we certainly -- we'd be willing to support it, but that's not really part of what -- we don't want to be in a position, especially where our assets are today, that we're buying back stock. We'd much rather -- especially where we are in this cycle of investing, where the upside for many of our holdings far exceeds the upside of just buying our stock at a discount.

因此，我們不時表示，如果我們的股票交易價格相對於我們的資產淨值有如此大的折扣，那麼我們當然——我們願意支持它，但這並不是我們真正想要的部分——我們不想處於這樣的境地，特別是在我們目前的資產狀況下，我們正在回購股票。我們更願意——尤其是在我們處於這個投資週期的情況下，我們持有的許多股票的上漲空間遠遠超過以折扣價購買股票的上漲空間。

So we viewed what we did in Q1 as a one-off. We don't view what we do personally as one-offs. You've seen the management team consistently in the market buying stock for our personal accounts. You'll see that again, I'm sure, this quarter once the restriction is taken. But share repurchase is really not something that's going to be a consistent part of our strategy. We've got to find companies, have them perform like they did in our first 5 years of existence, then our NAV will grow, the discount will narrow, we'll have more assets, and that's really the strategy for 180.

因此，我們將第一季的所作所為視為一次性的。我們並不認為我們個人所做的事情是一次性的。您已經看到管理團隊在市場上持續為我們的個人帳戶購買股票。我確信，一旦限制措施取消，本季你還會再看到這種情況。但股票回購其實並不是我們策略中一致的一部分。我們必須找到一些公司，讓它們的表現像我們成立後的前五年一樣，這樣我們的資產淨值就會成長，折扣就會縮小，我們就會擁有更多的資產，這才是 180 真正的策略。

Please go ahead.

請繼續。

[Jonathan Rothchild], long-time shareholder. You guys are obviously really smart guys and well experienced, and you saved the old 180 Degree or pre-180 Degree Harris & Harris from bankruptcy. But the small cap environment right now is something that's really off radar to most institutional investors. It's unfortunate that this is the sphere of influence that you're involved in right now.

[喬納森·羅斯柴爾德]，長期股東。你們顯然非常聰明，經驗豐富，你們拯救了舊的 180 Degree 或 180 Degree 之前的 Harris & Harris，使其免於破產。但目前的小型股環境確實沒有受到大多數機構投資者的關注。不幸的是，這就是您現在所處的影響範圍。

And as you mentioned, the mega cap tech stocks are where most dollars are flowing at this point at the expense of many very good companies that are undervalued. So I wonder what is your projection as a Dodd -- I'm sorry, a Benjamin Graham value investor, in this sector of microcap stocks, some of which are even selling well below intrinsic value. Do you see any trend that would justify a continuation of even working in this area?

正如您所提到的，目前大多數資金都流向了大型科技股，而許多非常優秀的公司卻被低估了。所以我想知道，作為多德——對不起，是本傑明·格雷厄姆價值投資者——您對微型股這一領域的預測是什麼，其中一些股票的售價甚至遠低於內在價值。您是否看到任何趨勢可以證明繼續在該領域開展工作是合理的？

I think one of the -- good to hear from you again, Jonathan. Thanks for the question. There's a lot of things to think through there. I guess, number one, it wasn't a really good environment for small caps when we started in 2017, but we generated off-the-charts performance in the first 5 years of our -- of doing this, and you can see that in our slide deck. So I think just because -- and but we haven't done well in the last 18 months. I own that. I'm the first person to admit that. I'm the second biggest shareholder. This has been painful for me.

我認為其中之一——很高興再次收到你的來信，喬納森。謝謝你的提問。有很多事情需要思考。我想，首先，當我們在 2017 年開始時，小型股的環境並不是很好，但我們在這樣做的頭五年裡創造了超出預期的業績，你可以在我們的幻燈片中看到這一點。所以我認為只是因為——但我們在過去的 18 個月裡表現並不好。我擁有它。我是第一個承認這一點的人。我是第二大股東。這對我來說很痛苦。

But we don't necessarily need the microcap stocks to outperform the large cap stocks for us, 180, to do well, because we did do well through that first 5 years when really, the only focus was large caps. So I think that's number one, and our stock picking is going to determine whether or not we're successful. And we have an activist approach. We tried to highlight how we're using that for our current holdings. And hopefully, we'll be able to recycle through some of our holdings which, quite frankly, have become stale.

但是，我們不一定需要微型股的表現優於大型股，180，才能取得良好的業績，因為在最初的 5 年裡，我們確實表現良好，而當時我們唯一的關注點是大型股。所以我認為這是最重要的，我們的選股將決定我們是否成功。我們採取了積極主動的做法。我們試圖強調我們如何將其用於我們當前的資產。並且希望我們能夠回收一些坦率地說已經變得陳舊的資產。

I think to some extent, we're -- we've become stockholders waiting for exits which we think will occur, and then we can recycle that into newer names. We have a lot of reasons why microcaps have been lousy. Number one, it's been a risk-off environment. And who wants to own Comscore when you can own NVIDIA and feel safe about what it is that you own? Even though the valuation discrepancy is a joke, right? Like NVIDIA is incredibly expensive and Comscore is quite [unbelievably inexpensive], but everyone's worried about their shadows and why do I want to take any risk in owning stock?

我認為在某種程度上，我們已經成為股東，等待我們認為會發生的退出，然後我們可以將其回收到更新的名稱中。我們有很多理由來解釋為什麼小型股表現很糟。首先，這是一個避險環境。當你可以擁有 NVIDIA 並且對自己所擁有的一切感到安心時，誰還會想擁有 Comscore 呢？儘管估值差異是一個笑話，對吧？就像 NVIDIA 非常昂貴，而 Comscore 卻相當 [令人難以置信的便宜]，但每個人都擔心他們的影子，為什麼我要冒持有股票的風險？

So let me just own what I perceive as safe and are going to be companies we don't have to worry about. So that's going on. We need a better macro backdrop in order for the microcaps to do well. And until we get there, you're going to -- I mean, this level of performance is so dramatic. It's mind-boggling. I've never seen an environment where one group of companies is up 40% and another group of companies is up 1%. That's just absurd. So the environment needs to get -- we need to get back to a little bit of a risk-on environment where investors are willing to invest more of their assets in companies outside of the Magnificent 7.

因此，我只擁有我認為安全的、我們無需擔心的公司。事情就是這樣的。為了讓微型股表現良好，我們需要更好的宏觀背景。在我們到達那裡之前，你將會——我的意思是，這種水平的表現是如此引人注目。這真是令人難以置信。我從未見過一組公司上漲 40%，另一組公司上漲 1% 的情況。這太荒謬了。因此，環境需要——我們需要回到有點風險的環境，讓投資人願意將更多的資產投資於七大巨頭以外的公司。

Because the world isn't ending, the economy isn't holding, interest rates have stopped going up, and therefore, I could be more diversified in what I own. So we think we're at the point where that's going to happen. The economy has had sustained resilience. We haven't imploded. Interest rates are probably at or near their cycle highs. The next move for the Fed could well be down, not necessarily up. We've seen earnings hits this year, and we see earnings growth going forward. We're out of the pandemic, the supply chain has eased.

因為世界沒有終結，經濟沒有停滯，利率已經停止上升，因此，我可以更加多樣化我的資產。所以我們認為我們正處於發生這種情況的時刻。經濟維持持續復甦態勢。我們還沒有崩潰。利率可能處於或接近週期高點。聯準會下一步的舉措很可能是降息，而不一定是升息。我們今年的獲利已經達到了頂峰，我們預計未來的獲利還會成長。我們已經走出了疫情，供應鏈已經放鬆。

Like there's a lot of reasons why things are getting better, not worse. And as they do get better, not worse, and as the environment and the headlines get better and not worse, then the market will, we think, diversify itself outside of just being in the hands of 7 stocks that basically dictate whether or not the market is going to go up or down. Small caps do well in inflationary environments because they're able to pass through those price increases a lot faster.

有很多原因導致事情變得更好而不是更糟。隨著情況確實好轉而不是惡化，隨著環境和新聞頭條變得更好而不是惡化，我們認為，市場將實現多元化，而不僅僅掌握在 7 隻股票手中，這 7 隻股票基本上決定了市場是漲是跌。小型股在通膨環境中表現良好，因為它們能夠更快地承受價格上漲的影響。

Many of them are domestic. They don't have to deal with the global supply chain issues that have occurred, so I mean, there's a lot of -- and then, of course, activism, that's part of the reason why we use it is because many of these companies probably shouldn't be public to begin with, and that's really where we could step in and try and hopefully engineer some sort of conclusion for some of these companies so that the value that actually is inherent in their business can actually occur, and sometimes it occurs vis-a-vis a sale.

其中很多都是國內的。他們不必處理已經發生的全球供應鏈問題，所以我的意思是，有很多——然後，當然，激進主義，這也是我們使用它的原因之一，因為其中許多公司可能一開始就不應該上市，而這正是我們可以介入並嘗試為其中一些公司設計某種結論的地方，以便他們的業務中固有的價值能夠真正實現，有時它會通過銷售來實現。

And like I said earlier in my prepared remarks, you've seen our activism behind the scenes, as I think, led to or at least been part of some strategic alternative process being led by some of the companies that we own. So I don't know if that is a really succinct answer. We believe in what we do. We don't necessarily need the microcap index to outperform NVIDIA for us to be successful, I think we've proved that in the last 5 months or 5 years. But we've just got to do a better job of picking stock than we have in the last 12 months, and that's part of just investing.

正如我之前在準備好的發言中所說的那樣，你們已經看到了我們在幕後的積極行動，我認為，這促成了或至少成為了我們所擁有的一些公司所領導的一些戰略替代進程的一部分。所以我不知道這是否是一個非常簡潔的答案。我們相信我們所做的一切。我們不一定需要微型股指數超越 NVIDIA 才能獲得成功，我認為我們已經在過去 5 個月或 5 年證明了這一點。但我們必須比過去 12 個月更好地挑選股票，這只是投資的一部分。

You're going to win some years and lose other years. And for those people that want to criticize us or think we've lost our way or think we don't know how to invest anymore, I mean, that's your perspective. You're entitled to it. We just know that at the end of the day, we're going to be able to create value for our shareholders because some of the stock prices that we're investing in are at these crazy prices, and one day, that will change. And I hope that day starts today, but it will change, I promise. Sorry for the long-winded answer.

有些年份你會成功，有些年份你會失敗。對於那些想要批評我們或認為我們迷失了方向或認為我們不知道該如何投資的人，我的意思是，那是你們的觀點。您有權利這麼做。我們只知道，最終我們將能夠為股東創造價值，因為我們投資的一些股票價格處於這些瘋狂的價格，而有一天，這種情況將會改變。我希望這一天從今天開始，但我保證它會改變。抱歉，我的回答太冗長了。

Well, using your own term of some of your investments in companies, they don't deserve to be public to begin with. If I look at 180 Degree Capital and others in the group, I ask the same question, Safeguard Scientifics and others, you're not the only one in this space that has suffered a share price.

嗯，用你自己的話來說，你對一些公司的投資，它們一開始就不值得上市。如果我看看 180 Degree Capital 和該集團的其他公司，我會問同樣的問題，Safeguard Scientifics 和其他公司，你們並不是這個領域唯一一家股價受到衝擊的公司。

In fact, you're probably the only one where you have insider buybacks and company buybacks, and it's -- the discount to NAV is also consistent even in good times. And then there's an expense ratio, which I'm not begrudging salaries and even with clawbacks in place and all that. And I wonder, have you ever considered liquidating the company and returning the cash to shareholders? Maybe not at this time, but maybe when things recover a little bit?

事實上，你可能是唯一一家進行內部回購和公司回購的公司，即使在經濟狀況良好的情況下，資產淨值的折扣也保持一致。然後還有費用率，我並不吝惜工資，甚至還有追回款等等。我想知道，您是否考慮過清算公司並將現金返還給股東？也許現在還不行，但也許等情況稍微好轉一點呢？

Yes. We're not here to clip coupons for ourselves. We're here for shareholders, which is why we're significant ones. The answer to your question is yes. But the answer to your question is no, that's not something that we should consider now at the bottom of the cycle. Like can we liquidate everything that we own today and return it back to shareholders and get people close to the $6.22 that our book value is? Yes. But is there an opportunity to do that at a much higher price? Yes. Will we do that at a higher price? We will.

是的。我們來這裡不是為了給自己剪優惠券。我們在這裡是為了股東，這就是為什麼我們是重要的股東。你的問題的答案是肯定的。但你的問題的答案是否定的，這不是我們現在在周期底部應該考慮的事情。例如，我們能否將今天擁有的一切變現，並將其返還給股東，並讓人們接近我們的帳面價值 6.22 美元？是的。但是否有機會以更高的價格做到這一點？是的。我們會以更高的價格做到這一點嗎？我們將。

So Jonathan, the answer to your question is yes. At some point, this company will not exist anymore. We will liquidate it, we will hand the assets back to shareholders, and we will move on. But doing that at this point in time or even having this discussion at this time is pointless because we think there's a path to creating a lot more value because of what we own at a much higher price. So let's see if we can get to the other side of this, get a much higher NAV. The discount will either narrow or won't, and at some point, we'll liquidate and hand the money back to shareholders.

所以喬納森，你的問題的答案是肯定的。某個時候，這家公司將不復存在。我們將把它清算，將資產交還給股東，然後我們將繼續前進。但此時這樣做，甚至進行這樣的討論都是沒有意義的，因為我們認為，我們可以用更高的價格創造更多的價值。那麼讓我們看看我們是否能夠達到這個目的，並獲得更高的資產淨值。折扣要么會縮小，要么不會縮小，到某個時候，我們會清算並將錢返還給股東。

I don't want to be doing this -- and by the way, the Board of Directors has to agree with my thesis there, and I'm not saying they will or they won't. That is my thesis. The Board has to agree with it. I think Daniel agrees with me. We talk about this all the time. I just think there's a time and a place for that discussion, and the time isn't today. But I don't own 700,000 shares of the stock that I bought with my own money out of my pocket -- after-tax dollars because I want the stock to go up a lot, first, and then we'll liquidate.

我不想這樣做——順便說一句，董事會必須同意我的觀點，我並不是說他們會同意或不會同意。這就是我的論點。董事會必須同意。我想丹尼爾同意我的看法。我們一直在談論這個。我只是認為，討論這個問題需要時間和地點，而現在不是時候。但我並沒有持有用自己的錢（稅後美元）買的 70 萬股股票，因為我希望股價先大幅上漲，然後我們再清算。

We need a happy ending for this company. This company has had a checkered history. As Daniel said, it was on its way to 0 before we got here. We created a business. We grew it for 5 years. We've struggled in the last 18 months. We'll grow it again and then we'll make a good strategic decision for all the shareholders, which probably will lead to a liquidation of the assets that will narrow inevitably the discount that exists, and then we'll all move on to our next lives. That's the plan.

我們需要這家公司有一個圓滿的結局。這家公司的歷史很坎坷。正如丹尼爾所說，在我們到達這裡之前它就已經趨於 0 了。我們創建了一家企業。我們種植它已有五年了。過去 18 個月我們一直在努力奮鬥。我們會再次發展，然後為所有股東做出良好的策略決策，這可能會導致資產清算，從而不可避免地縮小現有的折扣，然後我們都會繼續我們的生活。這就是計劃。

No, no. But in fairness, to me, I said not at this time. I said in the future.

不，不。但公平地說，對我來說，我說現在還不行。我說的是將來。

Okay. Thank you for that. There's others that want us to do it today, so I appreciate that. We're going to -- everything that we do is for shareholders. It really is. I don't sit around here and...

好的。謝謝你。今天還有其他人希望我們這樣做，所以我很感激。我們所做的一切都是為了股東。確實如此。我不會坐在這裡......

No, I mean there's a real vote of confidence from you buying back shares personally.

不，我的意思是，你親自回購股票是真正的信任之舉。

Yes. So like I said, we don't...

是的。所以就像我說的，我們不會…

We're going to keep doing it.

我們會繼續這樣做。

We're going to keep doing it. I just know the last 18 months has been -- if you invest for as long as I'm sure you have and I have, you're going to go through these periods. You just do. You are. We're not as smart as we were 5 years -- 1.5 years ago after that 5-year performance run. We're not as dumb as everyone thinks we are today. Reality sits somewhere in between. We know what we're doing and we're going to get there for all of our stakeholders and shareholders over the next 2 or 3 years.

我們會繼續這樣做。我只知道過去 18 個月——如果你投資的時間和我一樣長，你就會經歷這些時期。你只需這麼做。你是。經過 5 年的業績表現，我們不再像 5 年前（也就是 1.5 年前）那麼聰明了。我們並不像今天大家想像的那麼愚蠢。現實情況則介於兩者之間。我們知道自己在做什麼，我們將在未來 2 到 3 年內為所有利害關係人和股東實現目標。

Thanks, Jonathan. Did you have anything else? Good to hear from you. Zach, go ahead.

謝謝，喬納森。您還有別的事嗎？很高興收到你的來信。扎克，繼續吧。

I was wondering if you could give us a quick autopsy on the Parabellum. Just walk through why you guys invested in that, and sort of any lessons learned. And then the other question I had is just on the D-Wave, and if you guys -- I can't remember. Do you still have restrictions on that? Or what's the overall game plan with D-Wave? That doesn't really seem to fit with your overall philosophy.

我想知道您是否可以對 Parabellum 進行快速分析。只需解釋一下你們投資的原因以及獲得的經驗教訓即可。然後我的另一個問題是關於 D-Wave 的，如果你們——我不記得了。您對此還有限制嗎？或者 D-Wave 的整體遊戲計劃是什麼？這似乎與你的整體哲學不太相符。

Do you want to take that?

你想拿走那個嗎？

Yes. So D-Wave real fast. We are unrestricted on that. The restrictions came off February 5. We have sold a little bit as it ran from the bottom. I think as we look at D-Wave, you're right, it's not a traditional company that we would invest in today. We do have a lot of knowledge behind it, and as you think about AI, et cetera, there is a significant place for it in the market, we believe. It's a small part of our assets, but it has -- in this area, it has the opportunity to run.

是的。所以 D-Wave 非常快。我們對此沒有任何限制。該限制措施於 2 月 5 日起取消。隨著價格從底部回落，我們已經賣了一點。我認為，當我們審視 D-Wave 時，您是對的，它不是我們今天會投資的傳統公司。我們確實擁有豐富的知識，而且我們相信，當你想到人工智慧等等時，它在市場上佔有重要地位。這是我們資產的一小部分，但在這個領域，它有機會運作。

I think one of the things that -- one of the worries around it has always been can it survive because of its balance sheet, and they've been resolving that through their line of credit. And so I think we're opportunistic around sales of that position, but it's also not a core position. I don't know, Kevin, if there's anything else you want to add to that?

我認為人們一直擔心的一件事是它能否憑藉其資產負債表生存下來，而他們一直在透過信用額度來解決這個問題。因此我認為我們在該職位的銷售方面是機會主義的，但它也不是核心職位。我不知道，凱文，你還有什麼要補充的嗎？

No, I would agree with that. On Parabellum, never again. We invested in the management team from Adesto that we had a lot of respect for. Really, really -- we made a lot of money in Adesto, as you know. We told them they should do a SPAC. We found a target company.

不，我同意這一點。在《帕拉貝倫》中，再也不會發生這樣的事了。我們投資了 Adesto 的管理團隊，我們非常尊重他們的管理團隊。真的，真的——正如你所知，我們在 Adesto 賺了很多錢。我們告訴他們應該要做一家 SPAC。我們找到了一家目標公司。

We found 2.

我們找到了 2 個。

We found 2 target companies. They were real businesses. We spent a ton of time on it. We loved the opportunity. We actually think one of our companies is going to own one of the businesses that we targeted, it was that good of a business. We unfortunately ran into a situation where we couldn't get funded. I mean, it was simple as that. The market just shut down for SPACs.

我們找到了2家目標公司。它們是真正的企業。我們花了大量的時間在這上面。我們很喜歡這個機會。我們實際上認為我們的一家公司將擁有我們所瞄準的其中一項業務，這是一家非常好的業務。不幸的是，我們遇到了無法獲得資金的情況。我的意思是，就這麼簡單。SPAC 市場剛剛關閉。

We bought Alta Group, which was a B. Riley SPAC, right end of '19, beginning part of '20. A very successful SPAC, a very successful company, and it was a real business. And so we felt as though we can do this with -- by investing in Ron and Narbeh, and they'll find the business, and we'll invest just like we did in Alta. Alta is one of the best performing SPACs there has been.

我們在 19 年底和 20 年初收購了 Alta Group，這是一家 B. Riley SPAC。一個非常成功的 SPAC，一個非常成功的公司，而且它是一家真正的企業。因此，我們覺得我們可以做到這一點——透過投資 Ron 和 Narbeh，他們會找到業務，我們會像投資 Alta 一樣進行投資。Alta 是迄今為止表現最好的 SPAC 之一。

We just ran into a situation where the funding -- we couldn't get funding, and we weren't alone. And the stain from the other SPACs, the plethora of ones that came to the market, the lousy businesses that they became, the underlying businesses, cast a stain on the entire group, and we got lumped into that.

我們剛剛遇到了資金短缺的情況——我們無法獲得資金，而且我們並不孤單。其他 SPAC 的污點，大量進入市場的 SPAC，它們變成的糟糕企業，其基礎業務，給整個集團蒙上了一層污點，我們也被捲入其中。

So unfortunately, our diligence led to a great investment, but our inability to raise money around that investment was the reason why we had to shut it down. So I think the lesson learned there was just going to focus on what we started to focus on in 2017, which is small public companies, use our activist approach, Graham and Dodd value. And it was a mistake. It didn't -- it cost us what, Daniel, $2.5 million?

因此不幸的是，我們的勤奮帶來了一筆巨大的投資，但我們無法圍繞這筆投資籌集資金，這就是我們不得不關閉它的原因。所以我認為我們從中學到的教訓就是把重點放在我們在 2017 年開始關注的領域，即小型上市公司，採用我們的積極方法、格雷厄姆和多德價值觀。這是一個錯誤。它沒有——它花了我們多少錢，丹尼爾，250 萬美元？

Yes, about that.

是的，關於那件事。

I mean it wasn't catastrophic by any stretch of imagination. I mean, Arena Group's gone down 4x the amount that Parabellum cost us. So -- and Comscore's gone down 4x more than Parabellum's cost us. So it was a mistake. It was disappointing. It didn't cost us a ton of problems from that perspective. It was time consuming, and we just -- we're not going to do it again. I mean, lesson learned. Just do what you're doing.

我的意思是，無論怎麼想像，這都不是災難性的。我的意思是，Arena Group 的損失是 Parabellum 造成我們的損失的 4 倍。所以 —— Comscore 的損失比 Parabellum 造成的損失高出 4 倍。所以這是一個錯誤。這真令人失望。從這個角度來看，它並沒有為我們帶來太多問題。這非常耗時，我們不會再這樣做了。我的意思是，我學到了教訓。只管做你正在做的事。

We thought we were doing the right thing there, but as it turns out, we just did not get the market right in terms of understanding that the SPAC market would just fall apart at the seams, and every SPAC would be looked at the same way, not just -- they wouldn't be differentiated amongst the ones that had lousy businesses and the ones that had good businesses. So that was the lesson learned there.

我們以為我們所做的事情是正確的，但事實證明，我們只是沒有正確理解市場，沒有意識到 SPAC 市場將會分崩離析，每個 SPAC 都會以同樣的方式看待，不只是——它們不會區分哪些 SPAC 業務糟糕，哪些 SPAC 業務良好。這就是我們從中學到的教訓。

Great. And one more for me. On Potbelly, which is -- you sound enthused about the go forward, but how are you thinking about concentration within your portfolio and maybe limits there?

偉大的。對我來說還有一個。關於 Potbelly，您聽起來對未來充滿熱情，但您如何考慮投資組合的集中度以及可能的限制？

Yes. We're probably at the high end there of where we would like it to be. I mean, we run a concentrated portfolio. But because it's up and everything else that we own is down, we haven't been adding to it. It's gotten there based on its own performance. So I would say that we have to be mindful of not falling in love with something so much that it's going to take up a ridiculous amount of our assets.

是的。我們可能已經達到了我們所希望的高端水平。我的意思是，我們經營集中投資組合。但因為它上漲了，而我們擁有的其他所有東西都在下跌，所以我們沒有再增持它。它是憑藉自身的表現達到這一水準的。所以我想說，我們必須注意不要過度愛上某樣東西，以免它耗費我們大量的資產。

So we're probably at the upper limit. We've just got to figure out what that means. We don't have any -- this is not BlackRock or Vanguard where we have risk people and parameters around and guidelines and rules and regulations. I mean, we're -- that's not who we are, but we also don't want to have all of our eggs in one basket even though that one basket is doing really, really well. We have to figure this one out from that perspective.

所以我們可能已經達到上限了。我們必須弄清楚這意味著什麼。我們沒有任何——這不是貝萊德或先鋒，我們有風險人員、參數、指導方針、規則和條例。我的意思是，我們——我們不是那樣的人，但我們也不想把所有的雞蛋放在一個籃子裡，即使這個籃子做得非常非常好。我們必須從這個角度來解決這個問題。

20% of -- where it is right now is at the upper end of where we're comfortable. We've had other positions that have gone to this point, and we've taken money off the table. It's not a signal, but we just need to be mindful. It'd be nice actually for Potbelly's weighting to go a lot lower, not because it goes down, it's because the rest of the portfolio that we own goes up. If we can get the rest of the portfolio back to valuations that make sense, Potbelly's weighting will be considerably lower than it is today, so...

20%－目前的比例處於我們感到舒適的上限。我們的其他職位也已經到了這個地步，我們已經撤回了資金。這不是一個信號，但我們只是需要注意。實際上，如果 Potbelly 的權重大幅降低，那就太好了，這並不是因為它的權重下降了，而是因為我們持有的其他投資組合的權重上升了。如果我們能夠讓投資組合的其餘部分恢復到合理的估值，那麼 Potbelly 的權重將比現在低得多，所以...

And I think the only thing that I would add that is we continuously look at our investment thesis around each of our names. And with Potbelly, they put out metrics a few years ago that they were targeting to reach in 2024. They actually have reached those about a year early, and now it's where -- what are the next set of targets that they're going to be going towards, and that's something they have to figure out. We have our models for how we think about where this business can scale, and we continuously look at that as we think about size of positions, and so it is something that we look at every day.

我認為我唯一要補充的是，我們會不斷審視圍繞每個名字的投資論點。幾年前，Potbelly 就提出了 2024 年要達成的目標指標。他們實際上提前一年就實現了這些目標，現在的問題是——他們要實現的下一組目標是什麼，這是他們必須解決的問題。我們有自己的模型來思考這項業務的擴展範圍，並且在考慮職位規模時我們會不斷考慮這一點，因此這是我們每天都在關注的事情。

We have no further questions.

我們沒有其他問題了。

Thank you, everyone. As I said earlier, if you have any follow-up, please feel free to e-mail. I'd be happy to get on the phone with you at any given point in time. We wish you the very best rest of the summer. Have a good third quarter, and we'll speak to you again when we report our Q3. Thank you.

謝謝大家。正如我之前所說，如果您有任何後續問題，請隨時發送電子郵件。我很樂意隨時與您通電話。我們祝福您有個愉快的夏天。祝您第三季一切順利，當我們報告第三季業績時我們會再次與您聯繫。謝謝。

Thank you. You can all now disconnect.

謝謝。你們現在都可以斷開連結了。