拉斯維加斯金沙集團 (LVS) 2022 Q3 法說會逐字稿

Good day, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the Sands' Third Quarter 2022 Earnings Conference Call. (Operator Instructions)

女士們，先生們，美好的一天，歡迎參加金沙 2022 年第三季度收益電話會議。 （操作員說明）

It is now my pleasure to turn the floor over to Mr. Daniel Briggs, Senior Vice President of Investor Relations at Sands. Sir, the floor is yours.

現在我很高興將發言權交給金沙投資者關係高級副總裁 Daniel Briggs 先生。先生，地板是你的。

Thanks, Paul. Joining the call today are Rob Goldstein, our Chairman and CEO; Patrick Dumont, our President and COO; Dr. Wilfred Wong, President of Sands China; and Grant Chum, EVP of Asia Operations and COO of Sands China.

謝謝，保羅。今天加入電話會議的是我們的董事長兼首席執行官 Rob Goldstein；我們的總裁兼首席運營官 Patrick Dumont；金沙中國總裁王英偉博士；金沙中國亞洲業務執行副總裁兼首席運營官Grant Chum。

Today's conference call will contain forward-looking statements that we are making under the safe harbor provision of federal securities laws. The company's actual results could differ materially from the results reflected in those forward-looking statements. In addition, we will discuss non-GAAP measures. A definition and a reconciliation to the most comparable GAAP financial measures are included in the press release.

今天的電話會議將包含我們根據聯邦證券法的安全港條款做出的前瞻性陳述。該公司的實際結果可能與這些前瞻性陳述中反映的結果大不相同。此外，我們將討論非公認會計原則措施。新聞稿中包含與最具可比性的 GAAP 財務指標的定義和對賬。

We have also posted an earnings presentation on our Investor Relations website. We may refer to the presentation during the Q&A portion of the call. (Operator Instructions) Please note that this presentation is being recorded.

我們還在我們的投資者關係網站上發布了收益報告。我們可能會在電話的問答部分中參考演示文稿。 （操作員說明）請注意，此演示正在錄製中。

I'll now turn the call over to Rob.

我現在將把電話轉給 Rob。

Thank you, Dan, and thank you for joining our call today.

謝謝你，丹，感謝你今天加入我們的電話會議。

A few brief comments and we'll move to Q&A. The recovery of Marina Bay Sands continued during the quarter with property EBITDA reaching USD 343 million. Relaxation of virus-related restrictions in Singapore and many of the source markets, coupled with the improvements in airlift have enabled this performance and financial -- this improvement in financial performance. We expect a robust recovery over time as further relaxation measures in the region are implemented and additional airlift in Singapore comes online.

一些簡短的評論，我們將進入問答環節。濱海灣金沙在本季度繼續復甦，房地產 EBITDA 達到 3.43 億美元。新加坡和許多客源市場放寬了與病毒相關的限制，再加上空運的改善，使這種業績和財務狀況得以實現——財務業績的這種改善。隨著該地區進一步放鬆措施的實施以及新加坡的額外空運上線，我們預計隨著時間的推移將出現強勁復甦。

Our $1 billion capital investment program currently underway at Marina Bay Sands has introduced exceptional new suite product in premium segment focused in (inaudible). The response to these initial offerings has been strong. Additional offerings, including spacious new suite products, will be introduced throughout the remainder of this year in 2023. We look forward to substantially increasing our investment in the Singapore market as we execute our expansion plans at MBS in the years ahead.

我們目前在濱海灣金沙進行的 10 億美元資本投資計劃已在專注於（聽不清）的高端細分市場推出了卓越的新套房產品。對這些初始產品的反應非常強烈。其他產品，包括寬敞的新套房產品，將於 2023 年在今年剩餘時間內推出。我們期待在未來幾年執行我們在 MBS 的擴張計劃時大幅增加對新加坡市場的投資。

Turning to Macau, the operating environment remains difficult. Importantly though, in areas where restrictions have been relaxed, customer demand and spending in Macau have proven resilient at the premium mass level from both [dining] and retail perspective. We appreciate the opportunity to submit our tender proposal for 1 of the 16 concessions in Macau in September. We are now in the consultation phase of the tender program and as such, we won't be able to comment much further on the process at this time.

談到澳門，經營環境依然艱難。但重要的是，在放寬限制的地區，從[餐飲]和零售的角度來看，澳門的客戶需求和消費在高端大眾水平上表現出彈性。我們很高興有機會在 9 月份為澳門 16 個特許經營權中的一個提交投標建議。我們現在處於招標計劃的諮詢階段，因此，我們目前無法就該過程發表更多評論。

We are big believers in Macau as a world center of tourism and leisure. We have been the biggest investor and operated non-gaming businesses over the past 2 decades in Macau. We absolutely welcome the opportunity to invest even more in nongaming products and offerings in Macau. We have great confidence in Macau's tourism recovery as long-term growth prospects as we do most of our -- we'll do our utmost to support Macau's economic diversification and its evolution as Asia's leading destination for MICE and leisure visitors. We consider our existing portfolio of resorts in Asia to be an ideal platform for growth in the years ahead. In addition, we continue to pursue opportunities to develop new large-scale land-based destination resorts in both the U.S. and Asia.

我們堅信澳門是世界旅遊休閒中心。在過去的 20 年裡，我們一直是澳門最大的投資者和經營非博彩業務。我們非常歡迎有機會在澳門加大對非博彩產品的投資。我們對澳門旅遊業的複蘇和長期增長前景充滿信心，我們將盡最大努力支持澳門的經濟多元化及其發展成為亞洲領先的會展和休閒遊客目的地。我們認為我們在亞洲現有的度假村組合是未來幾年發展的理想平台。此外，我們繼續尋求機會在美國和亞洲開發新的大型陸上目的地度假村。

We thank you for listening today, and I'll turn to your questions.

我們感謝您今天的聆聽，我將轉向您的問題。

(Operator Instructions) And the first question today is coming from Joe Greff from JPMorgan.

（操作員說明）今天的第一個問題來自摩根大通的 Joe Greff。

Rob, Marina Bay Sands, you're run rating close to $1.4 billion in annualized EBITDA. And as you referenced in the investor slide presentation, without any contribution from a geography, namely China. Given what you're seeing with improved easing regional visitation volume in, say, other non-China geographies, do you think you can get to 2019 EBITDA levels at some point in the next year or so without direct contribution from China?

Rob，濱海灣金沙，您的年化 EBITDA 接近 14 億美元。正如您在投資者幻燈片演示中提到的那樣，沒有來自中國的地理位置的任何貢獻。鑑於您所看到的其他非中國地區的區域訪問量有所改善，您認為在沒有中國直接貢獻的情況下，您是否可以在明年左右的某個時候達到 2019 年的 EBITDA 水平？

Joe, we think Singapore is in a very unique place. I think we easily achieved 2019 levels. And as you referenced, we have 3 great impediments right now. We have -- obviously, tours into China is very limited. We also are running about 55% visitation into Singapore from the rest of Asia, which means -- and that may seem odd to reference that because you think, well, we're running at the high levels of occupancy. But keep in mind that, that residual tourist that comes in does not sleep at the MBS property, gambles there, shops there, eats there.

喬，我們認為新加坡是一個非常獨特的地方。我認為我們輕鬆達到了 2019 年的水平。正如你所提到的，我們現在有 3 個很大的障礙。我們——顯然，進入中國的旅行非常有限。我們也有大約 55% 的訪客來自亞洲其他地區，這意味著 - 這可能看起來很奇怪，因為您認為，嗯，我們的入住率很高。但請記住，進來的剩餘遊客不會在 MBS 物業睡覺，在那裡賭博，在那裡購物，在那裡吃飯。

So we're getting hurt, I think, on the table business by not having all the hotels in Singapore operating at full level. It's a big business for us because MBS is the first protocol from those visitors whether they're sleeping there or not, they go there. That hurts our business. And despite that, we're achieving $700 win per units on the slots and huge retail numbers, but the upside is material.

因此，我認為，由於沒有新加坡的所有酒店都在全面運營，我們在桌面業務上受到了傷害。這對我們來說是一項大生意，因為 MBS 是這些訪客的第一個協議，無論他們是否在那裡睡覺，他們都會去那裡。這損害了我們的業務。儘管如此，我們在老虎機和龐大的零售數量上實現了每台 700 美元的勝利，但好處是巨大的。

Third impediment is our sleeping rooms. We had about 400 or 500 units down right now. I think Singapore, it's just beginning. I always joke with the guys here, the party is just starting in Singapore. The truth is that Singapore is going to grow, and for a couple of reasons. One is the destination is getting more powerful than ever. Our building is getting better than ever. And I think when you see a rebound from China and the rest of Asia, $1.6 billion was very small in terms of our ability to grow with much larger than that. I think we can keep going to $2 billion the next couple of years if we get it right and the market fully recovers. So as much as we like the numbers currently, we think there's much better days ahead for Singapore. That market and that destination has grown quite a bit in terms of the Asian tourism world. And I think our numbers will reflect that years ahead.

第三個障礙是我們的臥室。我們現在有大約 400 或 500 個單位。我認為新加坡，這才剛剛開始。我總是和這裡的人開玩笑，派對在新加坡才剛剛開始。事實是，新加坡將會增長，這有幾個原因。一是目的地變得比以往任何時候都更強大。我們的建築比以往任何時候都好。而且我認為，當您看到中國和亞洲其他地區的反彈時，就我們的增長能力而言，16 億美元非常小。我認為，如果我們做對了並且市場完全復甦，我們可以在未來幾年繼續達到 20 億美元。因此，儘管我們喜歡目前的數字，但我們認為新加坡未來的日子會好得多。就亞洲旅遊業而言，這個市場和目的地已經增長了很多。我認為我們的數字將反映未來幾年。

Great. And then switching over to Macao, I'm not going to sort of waste, I guess, my bullet of the question on concessionaire terms and other things I'd love to ask about. But maybe can you just remind us what your expectation or what your conversations during the consultation process, what the timetable is for the license renewables to be finalized? When would you expect to hear from the government and then the government's end result to be publicly communicated? And that's all for me.

偉大的。然後切換到澳門，我想我不會浪費關於特許經營條款和其他我想問的問題的要點。但是，也許您能提醒我們您的期望或在諮詢過程中的對話內容，以及最終確定許可證可再生能源的時間表是什麼？您希望什麼時候聽到政府的消息，然後公開傳達政府的最終結果？這就是我的全部。

We woke our colleagues up in Asia in a deep sleep to participate. I'll let them answer that question. Gentleman, Grant and Wilfred, both online. Correct?

我們把熟睡中的亞洲同事叫醒參加。我會讓他們回答這個問題。紳士，格蘭特和威爾弗雷德，都在線。正確的？

Correct.

正確的。

Are you awake, guys?

醒了嗎，伙計們？

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Answer away. Do you need the question?

回答離開。你需要這個問題嗎？

Well, we've been working with the government closely. And a couple of rounds of discussion has been held. We are waiting for the government notification, whether there will be another next round of discussion. And the timetable remains the same. Everything is in good progress, and we expect some [notification] towards the end of the month for us to know what's the next step.

好吧，我們一直在與政府密切合作。並且已經進行了幾輪討論。我們正在等待政府的通知，是否還會有下一輪的討論。時間表保持不變。一切進展順利，我們預計月底會有一些[通知]，讓我們知道下一步是什麼。

Grant, do you have anything to add? Any additional commentary, Grant?

格蘭特，你有什麼要補充的嗎？格蘭特，還有其他評論嗎？

No, I think that's right. And we obviously welcome the smooth progress in the process. And we still do expect the entire process to complete by the end of the year, as obviously stated by the government.

不，我認為這是對的。我們顯然歡迎這一進程的順利進展。正如政府明確表示的那樣，我們仍然希望整個過程在今年年底前完成。

The next question is coming from Carlo Santarelli from Deutsche Bank.

下一個問題來自德意志銀行的 Carlo Santarelli。

Obviously, Rob or whoever wants to take this, you guys had a significant boost in kind of hotel revenue out of Singapore and namely in ADR. Any color you guys could provide? I mean, I know strategically, you're looking to put the best customers in that building right now from a gaming perspective. And obviously, that's showing up in the numbers, both on the VIP segment role and mass segment role. Anything you could provide as to kind of how the mix has changed at that property? I assume some of that ADR is just kind of casino comp room and that's kind of what's making that sound so significant?

顯然，Rob 或任何想接受這個的人，你們在新加坡以外的酒店收入，即在 ADR 中都有了顯著的增長。你們有什麼顏色可以提供嗎？我的意思是，我從戰略上知道，從遊戲的角度來看，您現在正在尋求將最好的客戶放在該建築物中。顯然，這在 VIP 部分角色和大眾部分角色的數字中都有體現。你能提供什麼關於該物業的混合如何變化的信息嗎？我認為其中一些 ADR 只是一種賭場補償室，這就是讓這聽起來如此重要的原因？

I think, Carlo, one of the most significant things is what's not there. We're running like 96%. You see on Page 14, the reference page, ADR $515. I think, again, we're just beginning. We only have half the recovery in terms of -- China is not there, most of Asia is not there. Our point is the mix gets better and better because demand gets higher and higher. Our problem there's going to be to have enough rooms to service all the demand FIT casino. And I think we pointed 2 great variables: one being retail, which is that mall just keeps getting better and will keep getting better.

我認為，卡洛，最重要的事情之一就是不存在的東西。我們正在運行 96%。您在第 14 頁，參考頁上看到，ADR 515 美元。我想，再一次，我們才剛剛開始。我們只有一半的複蘇——中國不存在，亞洲大部分地區不存在。我們的觀點是組合變得越來越好，因為需求越來越高。我們的問題將是有足夠的房間來服務所有需求的 FIT 賭場。而且我認為我們指出了兩個重要的變量：一個是零售，即購物中心不斷變得更好，並且會不斷變得更好。

And then our win per unit on the slot side looks strong. But I think the refocus on Singapore as a destination market, as a market in great ascent illustrates what the upside could be in the -- on the tables, and non-rolling tables. Rolling tables will probably get to whole new level, but demand for the non-rolling tables is what I'm waiting for recovery. And that's where you see China and the rest of Asia full lift comes back.

然後我們在老虎機方面的單位勝利看起來很強大。但我認為，重新關注新加坡作為目的地市場，作為一個大幅上升的市場，說明了桌面和非滾動表的上行空間。滾動表可能會達到全新的水平，但對非滾動表的需求是我正在等待恢復的。這就是你看到中國和亞洲其他地區全面回歸的地方。

So right now, we're just faced with -- the sad reality is we like to have a lot more rooms in Singapore because that $515 is a real number, it could be a lot higher as demand gets lifting. We can sell hotels rooms all day long at top dollar rates from the FIT side. We have great demand, much better than prepandemic demand from the rolling side. So again, the $343 million is a very nice number, a good print in lieu of what's happening in that market. But I think the best phase of Singapore next couple of years as we keep growing -- and you're going to see our refocus on our mix in the retail segment. Our room mix, we're going to continue to focus on the right room mix, top-tier rooms, the right food and beverage product. We've got to work harder because Singapore as a destination is growing measurably. We want to be a part of that. So we're just in a very good place in Singapore. I think looking back, we always thought [$1.6 billion] was a very nice number, but hopefully that looks like a small number in the future.

所以現在，我們只是面臨 - 可悲的現實是我們希望在新加坡擁有更多的房間，因為 515 美元是一個實數，隨著需求的增加，它可能會更高。我們可以全天以 FIT 方面的最高美元價格出售酒店客房。我們有很大的需求，比滾動方面的大流行前需求要好得多。再說一遍，3.43 億美元是一個非常好的數字，可以很好地代替市場上正在發生的事情。但我認為隨著我們不斷發展，未來幾年新加坡的最佳階段——你將看到我們重新關注我們在零售領域的組合。我們的房間組合，我們將繼續專注於正確的房間組合、頂級房間、正確的食品和飲料產品。我們必須更加努力，因為新加坡作為一個目的地正在顯著增長。我們想成為其中的一部分。所以我們在新加坡處於一個非常好的地方。我想回顧過去，我們一直認為 [16 億美元] 是一個非常好的數字，但希望這在未來看起來是一個很小的數字。

Great. That's helpful. And then if I could, as you guys have talked about in the past kind of the thoughts on development. Clearly, the New York process is kind of underway. Could you perhaps maybe share a little bit of your thinking around your approach and perhaps how you're thinking about the broader process time line in general for New York?

偉大的。這很有幫助。如果可以的話，正如你們過去所說的那樣，關於開發的一些想法。顯然，紐約的進程正在進行中。您能否分享一下您對您的方法的一些想法，以及您如何看待紐約更廣泛的流程時間線？

Waiting for a Governor Hochul advice to how that's going to process will begin. As you know, we've always been focused on that market for many years. We have a big we're putting together right now. We have property we're put together right now. Very bullish on New York as a market. Tough because really, I think, one available license at the end of the day, I think it's been a very -- a dog fight. And hopefully, we have a bid that gets attention. But other than that, timetable looks like January for the RFP. I think sometime in '23, maybe you see a decision. And we'll put our best foot forward, that's for sure. It would be a perfect market to be in with the density of population and ethnicity.

等待霍赫爾州長關於如何處理的建議將開始。如您所知，我們多年來一直專注於該市場。我們現在正在整理一個大項目。我們有我們現在放在一起的財產。非常看好紐約作為一個市場。很難，因為真的，我認為，在一天結束時，一個可用的許可證，我認為這是一場非常 - 一場狗打架。希望我們的出價能引起關注。但除此之外，RFP 的時間表看起來像一月份。我想在 23 年的某個時候，也許你會看到一個決定。我們會全力以赴，這是肯定的。在人口和種族密集的情況下，這將是一個完美的市場。

The next question is coming from Robin Farley from UBS.

下一個問題來自瑞銀的 Robin Farley。

Can you give us a sense on when -- what your expectation is for a more open border and whether there's still an expectation that November would see the package tour visas and electronic visas. Is that something that you feel like is still moving forward and will still allow for increased visitation to start?

你能告訴我們什麼時候 - 你對更開放的邊境的期望是什麼，以及是否仍然期望 11 月會看到旅行團簽證和電子簽證。您覺得這是否仍在向前發展，並且仍將允許開始增加訪問量？

I'm going to ask your former colleague, Mr. Chum, to answer that question, Robin.

我要請你的前同事查姆先生來回答這個問題，羅賓。

Sorry, Robin, I couldn't quite hear the question. Can you repeat that?

抱歉，羅賓，我沒聽清這個問題。你可以重複一遍嗎？

It was just about your expectations around timing for the border to be a little more open in Macau and specifically anything on the changes that were planned by early November for visa applications to be electronic and package tour visa to restart.

這只是您對澳門邊境開放時間的期望，特別是在 11 月初計劃進行的簽證申請電子化和旅行團簽證重啟的任何變化。

Yes, sure. I mean I think, Robin, there has been a positive announcement on the relaxation with regards to 2 groups as well as the electronic visa application in 4 provinces and also in Shanghai expected to commence end of the month or early November. And so that's obviously going to be a very positive signal for a gradual recovery in the visitation especially from these key provinces and municipality. And obviously, we welcome the development.

是的，當然。我的意思是，羅賓，關於放寬 2 組以及 4 個省和上海的電子簽證申請已經有一個積極的公告，預計將於月底或 11 月初開始。因此，這顯然將是一個非常積極的信號，表明訪問量逐漸恢復，尤其是來自這些主要省市的訪問量。顯然，我們歡迎這種發展。

Clearly, in the past few weeks and also months, is still being relatively impacted by the COVID cases in different provinces as far as the non-Guangdong visitation is concerned. So what we're seeing right now in Macau is predominantly coming from the Guangdong province. But hopefully, as we get out further into the fourth quarter with these recent measures, we're going to start to see a more well-rounded mix of visitation building up towards the end of the year.

顯然，在過去的幾周和幾個月裡，就非廣東人的訪問而言，仍然受到不同省份的 COVID 病例的相對影響。所以我們現在在澳門看到的主要來自廣東省。但希望隨著我們通過這些最近的措施進一步進入第四季度，我們將開始看到在年底前建立更全面的訪問組合。

Okay. And then also for my other question on Singapore. I know you said that the deadline to start construction was extended till April 2023, and that's -- you had said that before this quarter. Just wondering if you have anything more definitive about when that would happen.

好的。然後還有我關於新加坡的另一個問題。我知道你說過，開工的最後期限延長到 2023 年 4 月，那是 - 你在本季度之前說過。只是想知道您是否對何時會發生更明確的信息。

I think -- it's Patrick. I think the great news is, as Rob said in his opening remarks and the questions, our performance in Singapore is very strong. It's a privileged market and now tourism there is really remarkable given some of the constraints. The spending power of the consumer there is tremendous. We're really focused on high-value tourism and you're seeing the results of that in our results.

我想——是帕特里克。我認為好消息是，正如 Rob 在開幕詞和提問中所說，我們在新加坡的表現非常強勁。這是一個特權市場，考慮到一些限制，現在那裡的旅遊業真的很了不起。那裡的消費者的消費能力是巨大的。我們真正專注於高價值旅遊，您會在我們的結果中看到結果。

And I think the Tower 2, IR 2, in our mind, has just tremendous potential. We're very excited about it. But unfortunately, we don't have any update right now about the timing. So we're working on it. We're in process. And as we make a little bit more progress on our work there, we'll be able to disclose further about where we're headed. But as of right now, we're very optimistic about it. We're excited about the project. We think it really will speak to a very powerful part of the market. Now we don't have an update on timing.

而且我認為，在我們看來，2 號塔 IR 2 具有巨大的潛力。我們對此感到非常興奮。但不幸的是，我們現在沒有關於時間的任何更新。所以我們正在努力。我們正在處理中。隨著我們在那裡的工作取得更多進展，我們將能夠進一步披露我們的發展方向。但就目前而言，我們對此非常樂觀。我們對這個項目感到興奮。我們認為它確實會與市場中一個非常強大的部分對話。現在我們沒有關於時間的更新。

Can I just ask one clarifying question on that? It had sounded previously like the timing of the budget and all of that was because of the pandemic and the disruption from that. If your business level is sort of fairly recovered, is that still the kind of uncertainty in the commencing construction? Or are there other factors that are more of a gating issue at this point?

我可以問一個澄清的問題嗎？以前聽起來像是預算的時間安排，所有這一切都是因為大流行和由此造成的破壞。如果你的業務水平有點恢復，那還是開工的那種不確定性嗎？或者在這一點上是否還有其他因素更像是一個門控問題？

It's really just process. I think there's a certain number of steps that we have to go through to be able to build. And so those processes were delayed because of the pandemic and because of some of the government agencies that we have to deal with being focused on very pressing matters. So now that they're able to reengage, we'll start that process again and begin on the path.

這真的只是一個過程。我認為我們必須經過一定數量的步驟才能構建。因此，由於大流行以及我們必須處理的一些政府機構專注於非常緊迫的問題，這些進程被推遲了。因此，既然他們能夠重新參與，我們將再次開始該過程並開始走上正軌。

And as we follow sort of the steps necessary, we'll be able to provide an update. But it's really just timing related to things necessary to begin. There's a lot of things that have to happen to make a building of this scale and complexity in the location that it's in, get all the approvals, go with the steps necessary to begin.

當我們按照必要的步驟進行操作時，我們將能夠提供更新。但這實際上只是與開始所必需的事情有關的時間。要在其所在的位置建造如此規模和復雜的建築，獲得所有批准，採取必要的步驟開始，需要做很多事情。

And Robin, I would say, the process for us is a learning -- is an evolutionary process. We keep thinking how about this market differently as we learn more and see more. And so our thinking has changed on size of room, gaming capacity, who the customer is. Singapore is morphed from what it was 5 years ago and hold it in place now. And I think it's affected our thoughts on what we build in Singapore and how good should it be and how powerful should it be. And I think it's slower we want to be, but it's going to be at the end of the day a very, very important product.

而羅賓，我想說，這個過程對我們來說是一個學習——是一個進化的過程。隨著我們了解更多並看到更多，我們一直在思考如何以不同的方式看待這個市場。因此，我們對房間大小、遊戲容量和客戶身份的想法發生了變化。新加坡從 5 年前的情況演變而來，現在保持不變。而且我認為它影響了我們對我們在新加坡建設的東西以及它應該有多好和它應該有多強大的想法。而且我認為我們希望它更慢，但它最終將成為一個非常非常重要的產品。

The next question is coming from Dan Politzer from Wells Fargo.

下一個問題來自富國銀行的 Dan Politzer。

So just -- you guys are seeing a lot of strength in terms of the room product right now. You're doing the $1 billion project renovation on your room product and MBS. I mean how do we think about the return of that given this should be fully online next year? And do you think you can get to that typical kind of 20% return historically or maybe higher even in the absence of the Chinese consumer coming back?

所以只是 - 你們現在在房間產品方面看到了很多力量。您正在對您的房間產品和 MBS 進行價值 10 億美元的項目翻新。我的意思是，鑑於明年應該完全在線，我們如何看待它的回歸？你認為在沒有中國消費者回歸的情況下，你是否可以達到歷史上典型的 20% 或更高的回報率？

I think we need the Chinese consumer. We need couple of things to happen, let's be clear, we need to see China return at some point to achieve our goals. We also need to see the balance of Asia open up and come back at, again, as I referenced earlier, the 55-or-so percent number, which is compared to 2019 isn't good. We need Singapore to be full on because our building, if you walk through there, when there's tens of thousands, hundreds of thousand people there, they're all staying there. There's the other hotels from the business. So these other hotels are very important to us.

我認為我們需要中國消費者。我們需要做幾件事，讓我們明確一點，我們需要看到中國在某個時候回歸以實現我們的目標。我們還需要看到亞洲的平衡打開並再次回到我之前提到的 55% 左右的數字，與 2019 年相比並不好。我們需要新加坡全力以赴，因為我們的大樓，如果你走過那裡，當那裡有成千上萬、幾十萬人時，他們都住在那裡。還有其他的酒店。所以這些其他酒店對我們來說非常重要。

So we need 2 things happen. Our renovation will complete in late '23. The balance of Singapore -- of Asian tourism into Singapore should be hopefully by Q2 complete. And that leaves the one barrier we can't answer that: the China return. But when all that happens, do we think we can get to a very fat return? Yes. I'd like to believe we can -- our goal is to get to $2 billion in Singapore. And we believe that's not difficult if the market returns in full.

所以我們需要發生兩件事。我們的裝修將於 23 年底完成。新加坡的平衡——亞洲旅遊業進入新加坡應該有望在第二季度完成。這留下了一個我們無法回答的障礙：中國回歸。但是當這一切發生時，我們是否認為我們可以獲得非常豐厚的回報？是的。我願意相信我們可以——我們的目標是在新加坡達到 20 億美元。我們相信，如果市場全面回歸，這並不難。

So keep in mind that we went into Singapore with a very different mentality a decade plus ago. The evolution of Macau into a really the premier FIT gaming market probably right now in that region is MBS. And I think we're experiencing the beginning to return, but it's not nearly where it needs to get to for us to get to $500 million a quarter. But I think that -- we'll hopefully see that in the years ahead. So we feel very bullish. And I can't think of a better place to invest our capital than Singapore and Macau. And Singapore has proven to be terrific opportunity. We put a lot of money in Macau. That will open up [to 10] and be a good opportunity. But right now, Singapore is very, very exciting for us. And yes, we're very confident the returns will be there.

所以請記住，我們在十多年前以非常不同的心態進入新加坡。澳門發展成為該地區真正首屈一指的 FIT 博彩市場可能是 MBS。而且我認為我們正在經歷回歸的開始，但這並不是我們每季度達到 5 億美元所需要達到的目標。但我認為——我們希望在未來幾年能看到這一點。所以我們覺得非常看好。我想不出比新加坡和澳門更好的投資地點。事實證明，新加坡是絕佳的機會。我們在澳門投入了大量資金。這將開放 [to 10] 並且是一個很好的機會。但是現在，新加坡對我們來說非常非常令人興奮。是的，我們非常有信心回報會在那裡。

Got it. And then just pivoting to Macau. Another one on the group tours and the e-visas being resumed. I mean can you maybe frame how big these components worked for your business in 2019? And then secondarily, if we think about these parts of the business returning and coming back online, is there a path to Macau getting to positive EBITDA in the fourth quarter, assuming no major outbreaks?

知道了。然後只是轉向澳門。另一個關於團體旅遊和電子簽證正在恢復。我的意思是，您能否描述一下這些組件在 2019 年對您的業務有多大作用？其次，如果我們考慮這部分業務的回歸和重新上線，假設沒有重大疫情，澳門是否有辦法在第四季度實現正 EBITDA？

I'll ask Grant to reference that. But I think we should be careful. We don't -- it's very hard, as you know, right now, predictions on Macau have been erroneous for the last couple of years because we don't know who's going to come and we don't know when they'll close the market. It's been a stop-and-start for so long. It's kind of silly for us to pontificate on exact gains in EBITDA.

我會請格蘭特參考這一點。但我認為我們應該小心。我們不 - 這很難，正如你所知，現在，過去幾年對澳門的預測一直是錯誤的，因為我們不知道誰會來，也不知道他們什麼時候會關閉市場。這麼長時間以來，它一直是一個停止和啟動。對於我們來說，對 EBITDA 的確切收益感到自負有點愚蠢。

Could be EBITDA positive? Sure, these are positive tomorrow if things open up and visitation return. And that's going to happen at some point. But I think it's not -- it's difficult for us to tell you fourth quarter could be EBITDA positive without knowing what effect the business team will have in November and then also not knowing how zero COVID enforcement will happen. So there's certainly unknowns in Macau. It's very difficult to guess. Grant, Wilfred, any commentary?

EBITDA 可能是正數嗎？當然，如果事情開放並且訪問返回，這些明天都是積極的。這將在某個時候發生。但我認為不是——我們很難告訴你第四季度的 EBITDA 可能是積極的，但不知道業務團隊將在 11 月產生什麼影響，也不知道如何實施零 COVID。所以澳門肯定有未知數。很難猜。格蘭特，威爾弗雷德，有什麼評論嗎？

Yes, Rob, I think Rob is right. I mean, the prediction of the future is tough. I think what we can say about the past is that group package tours represented roughly 1/4 of the visitation before the pandemic. With respect to electronic visas, we don't have those numbers. Obviously, it varied significantly from province to province. But clearly, the provision or availability of that mode of application absolutely is helpful to facilitate the visa application for those relevant provinces.

是的，Rob，我認為 Rob 是對的。我的意思是，對未來的預測是艱難的。我認為我們可以說的過去是，團體旅行團約佔大流行前訪問量的 1/4。關於電子簽證，我們沒有這些數字。顯然，各省之間差異很大。但顯然，這種申請模式的提供或可用性絕對有助於這些相關省份的簽證申請。

And the next question will be from Shaun Kelley from Bank of America.

下一個問題將來自美國銀行的 Shaun Kelley。

Maybe just to stay on Singapore, my first question is just to ask a little bit about trying to triangulate a little bit more on sort of what you're seeing behaviorally. When we look at RevPAR, for instance, I think it's about 6% versus 2019. Is that a decent gauge of, let's call it, the consumer and, let's call it, the spend per person or per head. Is it better than that? I'm just trying to kind of think about pent-up demand or what you're seeing on kind of a core visit-to-visit basis versus what we've seen in some of the Western markets because we don't have a great proxy in Asia yet about sort of how pent-up demand is going to play out and just trying to kind of see what you're seeing a little bit more.

也許只是為了留在新加坡，我的第一個問題只是想問一些關於嘗試對你所看到的行為進行更多的三角測量。例如，當我們查看 RevPAR 時，我認為與 2019 年相比，它約為 6%。這是一個體面的衡量標準，讓我們稱之為消費者，讓我們稱之為每人或每人的支出。比那更好嗎？我只是想考慮一下被壓抑的需求，或者你在核心訪問的基礎上看到的與我們在一些西方市場看到的相比，因為我們沒有在亞洲是一個很好的代理，但關於被壓抑的需求將如何發揮作用，只是想看看你所看到的更多。

I'm going to ask Patrick to take that, but I want to say one thing, Shaun, is critical to understand is that Singapore is much different. I think this is the obvious response to that. Singapore is much different than Las Vegas or U.S. regional because of the obvious that you got to fly to get there, so you had to take other countries opening up and it's like buying wine in Burgundy, a lot of different regions in Burgundy. Well, there's a lot of different regions in Asia that don't open, haven't opened. Airlift is a problem.

我要請帕特里克接受這一點，但我想說一件事，肖恩，要理解新加坡與此大不相同。我認為這是對此的明顯回應。新加坡與拉斯維加斯或美國地區有很大不同，因為很明顯你必須坐飛機才能到達那裡，所以你必須讓其他國家開放，這就像在勃艮第購買葡萄酒一樣，勃艮第的許多不同地區。嗯，亞洲有很多不同的地區沒有開放，還沒有開放。空運是個問題。

So we're really hampered. As nice as what $3.40 billion is for the quarter, I think you're not getting the full power. It's hard to differentiate versus other places. The truth is that Singapore remains really held back by no China or little China and the regional market there, depending on airlift. The difference in Macau will be when Macau opens up, it's like Las Vegas or regionals. You can come right in without airlift. You're not airlift-dependent.

所以我們真的很受阻。與本季度的 34 億美元一樣好，我認為你並沒有獲得全部權力。很難與其他地方區分開來。事實是，新加坡仍然沒有受到中國或很少的中國以及那裡的區域市場的阻礙，這取決於空運。澳門的不同之處在於澳門開放時，就像拉斯維加斯或地區一樣。不用空運就可以進來。你不依賴空運。

So I do think Singapore right now is in kind of unclear, uncertain environment. It's nicely making $1.4 billion, whatever the number annualizes. But we won't know the full power of this market. We see it in retail. We see it in local slot play is still strong. We see it in rolling volumes are strong because everyone is coming to Singapore, especially the F1. But I think what you're not seeing yet is unleash the full power of this destination and what's happening. Patrick?

所以我確實認為新加坡現在處於一種不明確、不確定的環境中。無論年化數字是多少，它都能賺到 14 億美元。但我們不會知道這個市場的全部力量。我們在零售中看到它。我們看到它在本地老虎機遊戲中仍然很強大。我們看到它的滾動量很強勁，因為每個人都來到新加坡，尤其是 F1。但我認為你還沒有看到的是釋放這個目的地的全部力量以及正在發生的事情。帕特里克?

It's a very interesting question. I think the key thing to note is that it's a data point for the quality of tourism coming into Singapore. And the high amount of consumption that's there when tourists visit, there are constraints and there were constraints for Marina Bays Sands during the quarter. So as Rob mentioned at the beginning, you see from the deck, we had approximately 500 rooms out of inventory during the renovation, the rooms that are coming online are probably the best products we've ever had. We're very proud about that. We think we'll be able to trade up in terms of the quality of the tourism that we get out of those rooms once the completion is there.

這是一個非常有趣的問題。我認為要注意的關鍵是它是進入新加坡的旅遊質量的數據點。遊客到訪時的大量消費，在本季度對濱海灣金沙有限制，也有限制。所以正如 Rob 一開始提到的，你從甲板上看到，我們在裝修期間大約有 500 間房間沒有庫存，即將上線的房間可能是我們曾經擁有的最好的產品。我們對此感到非常自豪。我們認為，一旦完成，我們將能夠在這些房間的旅遊質量方面進行交易。

One thing to note is that we'll be done at the end of '23. So we're going to have a few more quarters of disruption as we take rooms out of inventory to complete the renovation process in Marina Bay Sands. The other thing to note is that the airlift is not there. And some of the other hotels around the Singapore market do not have the full capacity because of labor constraints. So once these things are removed from the market that act as limiters, then you can get an idea of what the true potential would be in a run rate environment. But I would still call this a little bit of a recovery quarter. So we think there's more potential to run as we fix some of these things that are sort of limiting the way that we can earn. And to be fair, the market can earn.

需要注意的一件事是，我們將在 23 年底完成。因此，當我們從庫存中取出房間以完成濱海灣金沙的翻新過程時，我們將有幾個季度的中斷。另一件需要注意的是，空運不在那裡。而新加坡市場周邊的其他一些酒店由於勞動力限制，並沒有滿負荷運轉。因此，一旦將這些作為限制器的東西從市場上移除，您就可以了解在運行速率環境中的真正潛力是什麼。但我仍然認為這是一個複甦的季度。因此，我們認為當我們修復其中一些限制我們賺錢方式的事情時，還有更多的潛力可以運行。公平地說，市場可以賺錢。

If you look at our sales in the retail mall on Page 31, it gives you some indication that we're running at $2,300, $2,400 a foot at Marina Bay Sands from the third quarter. I also think if you look at the rolling volumes as they start to kick in, I think those are great data points to see the quality coming. But again, it's early days. I think the recovery quarter is the right way of approaching it.

如果您查看我們在第 31 頁的零售商場的銷售情況，就會發現我們從第三季度開始在濱海灣金沙酒店的售價為 2,300 美元，每英尺 2,400 美元。我還認為，如果您查看開始出現的滾動量，我認為這些都是很好的數據點，可以看到質量的到來。但同樣，現在還為時過早。我認為複蘇季度是接近它的正確方法。

Super helpful. And sort of want to go down the same path, transitioning over to Macau. And I'm not sure it's the exact right way to look at it. But here, you do this slide on Slide 12 where you kind of break down the mass win per visit, which I find to be very, very valuable. Just as we think about that level, and we saw the sort of pullback from what was probably a very premium mass-driven business back over the -- like last 8 quarters or so. The last 2 quarters, have looked a lot like where you were back in kind of 2018, 2019. Is this the right -- which one of those 2, either the sort of pent-up demand we saw over the last 8 quarters or kind of these more recent numbers is a better guide for what we think normal activity might look like in Macau?

超級有幫助。有點想走同樣的路，過渡到澳門。而且我不確定這是正確的看待它的方式。但是在這裡，您在幻燈片 12 上進行了這張幻燈片，您可以在其中分解每次訪問的大規模勝利，我認為這非常非常有價值。就像我們考慮那個水平一樣，我們看到了從過去 8 個季度左右可能是一個非常優質的大眾驅動業務的回落。過去兩個季度看起來很像您在 2018 年和 2019 年的情況。這是正確的嗎？這兩個季度中的哪一個，要么是我們在過去 8 個季度中看到的那種被壓抑的需求，要么是那種這些最近的數字中的哪一個可以更好地指導我們認為澳門的正常活動可能是什麼樣的？

Grant, do you want to take that?

格蘭特，你想接受嗎？

Yes, I'll take that, Rob. Yes, thanks for the question. I think it's interesting looking at that trend as you highlight for the past several quarters. I would say the difference that you highlighted with the previous 2 quarters versus the prior 8, it's really just a function of the regional mix. So into 2022, we've had a much more Guangdong bias mix, if you look at the visitation data, and that's mainly a result of the various COVID outbreak impact on the non-Guangdong source of visitation.

是的，我會接受的，羅布。是的，謝謝你的提問。正如您在過去幾個季度中強調的那樣，我認為看看這種趨勢很有趣。我想說的是您在前 2 個季度與前 8 個季度之間強調的差異，這實際上只是區域組合的一個函數。因此，如果您查看訪問數據，到 2022 年，我們對廣東的偏見組合要多得多，這主要是由於各種 COVID 爆發對非廣東訪問來源的影響。

So if you're looking at the period post pandemic, that's clearly the differentiator. And then if you compare with pre pandemic, then it's, of course, still very much premium mass coming back faster. And I think that broadly stands notwithstanding or adjusted for the regional provincial mix. I think that's still a valid point, and it's borne out by the data series. So obviously, premium mass comes back first and then the mass comes back later. But this year, definitely, there's an impact from the regional mix as well.

因此，如果您正在查看大流行後的時期，那顯然是差異化因素。然後，如果您與大流行前進行比較，那麼當然，仍然會以更快的速度回歸優質大眾。而且我認為，儘管地區性的省級組合或調整了這一點，但總體上還是如此。我認為這仍然是一個有效的觀點，數據系列證實了這一點。所以很明顯，優質大眾首先回來，然後大眾稍後回來。但今年，肯定地，區域組合也產生了影響。

Very helpful.

非常有幫助。

I think we all agree to underlying demand in Macao's going to be there once COVID resolved. And no difference happened probably in the U.S. And again, with our footprint there, our size, our scale, we know the base mass, premium mass is going to drive this thing. The only variable we don't know is the missing junket segment, how impactful it will be. But we believe -- again, when that door does open, I think the pent-up demand is going to be extraordinary.

我想我們都同意，一旦新冠疫情得到解決，澳門的潛在需求就會出現。在美國可能沒有任何區別。再說一次，我們在那裡的足跡，我們的規模，我們的規模，我們知道基本質量，優質質量將推動這件事。我們不知道的唯一變量是缺少的中介部分，它將產生多大的影響。但我們相信——再一次，當那扇門打開時，我認為被壓抑的需求將是非凡的。

And the next question is coming from Brandt Montour from Barclays.

下一個問題來自巴克萊的 Brandt Montour。

On Singapore, can you guys give us the room rate differential between the finished room product and the legacy room product at run rate?

在新加坡，你們能告訴我們成品房產品和舊房產品之間的運行率差異嗎？

I think the problem is the -- it's Patrick. I think the problem is there's so much noise in the comparison because what we would be giving you is 2019, and this is not a fully open market yet. What we'd like to believe is after the quality of the renovation to be fair, we were taking keys out of inventory to create larger suite product. The level of design, we have a new service model. We've changed out a lot of the team there in order to improve our service delivery. There's a lot of things that are going to be different.

我認為問題在於——是帕特里克。我認為問題在於比較中存在太多噪音，因為我們會給你的是 2019 年，而這還不是一個完全開放的市場。我們想要相信的是，在裝修質量公平之後，我們從庫存中取出鑰匙以創造更大的套房產品。在設計層面，我們有了全新的服務模式。我們已經改變了那裡的很多團隊，以改善我們的服務交付。有很多事情會有所不同。

So I don't want to quote you a number until we get to the run rate. But the key takeaway is that we're very focused on high-value tourism. We're investing in room product, we're investing in personnel and training and in service delivery and in food and beverage and other amenities in the property to ensure that we can sort of capture that high-value tourist. And that's really what you'll see over time.

所以在我們達到運行率之前，我不想給你一個數字。但關鍵的一點是，我們非常關注高價值旅遊。我們投資於客房產品，我們投資於人員和培訓、服務交付、餐飲和酒店的其他設施，以確保我們能夠在某種程度上吸引高價值的遊客。隨著時間的推移，這確實是你會看到的。

I think one thing you just have to do if you want to understand this thing is you will have pictures and listen to us, but jump on a plane somebody and go see it. The product we're building there is unlike anything ever been done in Singapore, it is our spirit to (inaudible) in the past and our competitors. And so I think when people -- our response has been across the board, perfect in terms of how people view this product. I think the impact is going to be much higher than we understand because if you build something that good, people respond to it. I would encourage anybody who's in that part of the world to spend a day at Marina Bay Sands and we'll show you what we're building is pretty impressive.

我認為如果你想了解這件事，你只需要做一件事就是你將有照片並聽我們說，但是跳上飛機去看看它。我們在那裡建造的產品與新加坡以往的任何產品都不同，這是我們過去（聽不清）和我們的競爭對手的精神。所以我認為當人們 - 我們的反應是全面的，就人們如何看待這個產品而言是完美的。我認為影響會比我們理解的要大得多，因為如果你創造出這麼好的東西，人們就會回應它。我會鼓勵在世界那個地區的任何人在濱海灣金沙度過一天，我們將向您展示我們正在建造的令人印象深刻的東西。

Great. That's helpful. And then as you -- again, on Singapore, one of the narratives on the early days of the reopening in that market was that Singapore was gaining share of groups and convention business from Hong Kong. As you talk to your meeting planners and bookers and they're looking out 6, 12 months, 18 months, is there a sense that with Hong Kong starting to reopen that, that market is sort of trying to regain some of that share? Or is that market too uncertain? And the momentum is being maintained for Singapore in that business?

偉大的。這很有幫助。然後作為您 - 再次在新加坡，關於該市場重新開放初期的一種說法是，新加坡正在從香港獲得團體和會議業務的份額。當您與您的會議策劃者和預訂者交談時，他們正在尋找 6、12 個月、18 個月的時間，是否有一種感覺，隨著香港開始重新開放，該市場正試圖重新獲得部分份額？還是那個市場太不確定了？新加坡在該業務中的勢頭是否得以保持？

So Singapore is open for business. And so that means a return of leisure tourism, which we're benefiting from directly and the return of business tourism, which we're seeing in a strong way. I don't think we can draw a comparison with Hong Kong because access is different. So I think the way to look at it now is Singapore has always been a very strong MICE market. And I think it will continue to be so because of the investment, the high-quality tourism assets, it's important as a financial center. We intend to invest behind this thesis. And so we think it's generally a very strong place to do business tourism.

所以新加坡是開放的。因此，這意味著休閒旅遊的回歸，我們直接從中受益，商務旅遊的回歸，我們正以強勁的方式看到。我認為我們無法與香港進行比較，因為訪問方式不同。所以我認為現在看待它的方式是新加坡一直是一個非常強大的 MICE 市場。而且我認為它會繼續如此，因為投資，高質量的旅游資產，它作為一個金融中心很重要。我們打算在這篇論文背後進行投資。所以我們認為它通常是一個非常適合進行商務旅遊的地方。

In terms of Hong Kong, I don't think we're at run rate yet to really understand sort of what that means. There's still COVID restrictions. There's still other restrictions in operation. So until those return to a more normal time, I think it's going to be hard to have any view at all.

就香港而言，我認為我們還沒有達到真正理解這意味著什麼的速度。仍然有 COVID 限制。操作中還有其他限制。因此，在那些恢復到更正常的時間之前，我認為很難有任何看法。

And the next question is coming from Stephen Grambling from Morgan Stanley.

下一個問題來自摩根士丹利的 Stephen Grambling。

You mentioned the trade-up and quality of the new rooms in Singapore. Can you just remind us of the cadence of rooms coming out and coming in over the next couple of quarters? And also talk to the net impact from these actions split across any uplift from renovated rooms versus the older rooms and maybe even tying in headwinds from those closed?

你提到了新加坡新房間的更新換代和質量。你能提醒我們接下來幾個季度房間進出的節奏嗎？還談談這些行動對翻新房間與舊房間的任何提升所產生的淨影響，甚至可能與關閉房間的逆風有關？

So we're going to have, let's call it, anywhere from 300 to 500 keys out of circulation across the next 5 quarters. And then the room renovation will wrap up and the tower will be fully -- the 2 towers will be fully ready by Chinese New Year '24. And actually by the end of '23. So that's sort of the cycle. So we're going to have we're going to have not our full potential of room delivery during the next 5 quarters.

因此，在接下來的 5 個季度中，我們將有 300 到 500 把鑰匙停止流通。然後房間裝修將結束，塔樓將全部完工——兩座塔樓將在 24 年農曆新年前完全準備好。實際上到 23 年底。所以這就是循環。因此，在接下來的 5 個季度中，我們將無法充分發揮客房交付的潛力。

Are you currently delineating between the new rooms in terms of pricing in the old rooms?

您目前是否根據舊房間的定價來劃分新房間？

There is some variability there, yes, but it also depends on which room within the segment so that we have certain suites that are out, certain rooms that are in, depends on the time. Yes, there is some differentiation. So there is a blend there.

那裡有一些可變性，是的，但這也取決於細分市場中的哪個房間，因此我們有某些套房在外面，某些房間在裡面，這取決於時間。是的，有一些區別。所以那裡有一個混合。

Got it. And then maybe turning to Macau. The market share there in mass has been quite volatile. How would you frame how your market share may evolve in a market recovery as different segments return, as you've described in a bit of a cadence premium mass and then mass?

知道了。然後也許會轉向澳門。那裡的大眾市場份額一直很不穩定。您將如何構建您的市場份額如何隨著不同細分市場的回歸而在市場復甦中演變，正如您在一定的節奏溢價大眾和大眾中所描述的那樣？

Grant, do you want to have that?

格蘭特，你想要那個嗎？

Sure. Yes, thanks for the question. Yes, I think it is volatile right now because the volumes are so thin. So I'm not sure looking at this quarter or even the prior quarters is particularly meaningful at this point. But I think going forward, I think as Rob referenced, we expect a strong comeback of both premium mass and mass. And I think in those segments, we're going to perform very well.

當然。是的，謝謝你的提問。是的，我認為它現在很不穩定，因為交易量太少了。因此，我不確定在這一點上查看本季度甚至前幾個季度是否特別有意義。但我認為展望未來，我認為正如 Rob 所提到的，我們預計優質大眾和大眾都會強勢回歸。我認為在這些領域，我們會表現得非常好。

Obviously, there's a past history there, but also, I think looking forward, we are coming off these fantastic product investments that we've made during the pandemic with the $2.2 billion investment program that we've implemented and now coming out on the other side, pretty much completing with the London arena being the last component. So with the London arena and the Grand Suites at Four Seasons, we feel very strongly that we're going to perform very well in the market share front.

顯然，那裡有過去的歷史，而且，我認為展望未來，我們正在擺脫在大流行期間進行的這些出色的產品投資，我們已經實施了 22 億美元的投資計劃，現在又開始了側，幾乎完成了倫敦競技場作為最後一個組成部分。因此，對於倫敦競技場和四季酒店的 Grand Suites，我們非常強烈地感覺到我們將在市場份額方面表現出色。

Across all of these segments, not just because of the suites, speaking to the premium mass segment, but also for the mass segment, I think we'll end up with these 3 wonderful iconic destinations to follow on from the Venetian and the (inaudible) and now with the London and Macau, which is already starting to gain so much traction with the people who have been able to visit and also locally as well.

在所有這些細分市場中，不僅僅是因為套房，對高端大眾細分市場而言，而且對於大眾細分市場，我認為我們最終將擁有這 3 個美妙的標誌性目的地，繼威尼斯人和（聽不清) 現在倫敦和澳門已經開始受到能夠訪問的人們以及本地人的廣泛關注。

And the last question is coming in from David Katz from Jefferies.

最後一個問題來自 Jefferies 的 David Katz。

If you could just talk a little bit about what you may have learned past quarter or so about the mix of revenue and recovery in Macau, what should we expect? And what role does sort of VIP play in all of this? And I know obviously, premium mass is the focus. But help us break down the different streams, if you can.

如果你能談談你在過去一個季度左右可能學到的關於澳門收入和復甦的組合，我們應該期待什麼？ VIP 在這一切中扮演什麼角色？我很清楚，優質大眾是重點。但是，如果可以的話，請幫助我們分解不同的流。

Mr. Chum, are you still awake?

楚先生，你還醒著嗎？

Yes, still going. Yes. I think as I referenced earlier, I think there is a mix between the business segment -- the matrix between the business segment as well as the regional breakdown. So I think if you're just looking at the business segment, then clearly, VIP right now is -- has very low levels of volume, especially versus premium mass and even mass.

是的，還在繼續。是的。我認為正如我之前提到的，我認為業務部門之間存在混合 - 業務部門之間的矩陣以及區域細分。所以我認為，如果你只看業務領域，那麼顯然，VIP 現在的銷量水平非常低，尤其是與高端大眾甚至大眾相比。

But part of this impact in 2022 is also the regional composition of the business where we're obviously very Guangdong-dependent right now and have been for most part of this year. But I think going forward, it should be like how we've been seeing, which is the premium mass will come back first and more strongly and then followed by the mass.

但 2022 年的部分影響也是業務的區域構成，我們現在顯然非常依賴廣東，今年大部分時間都是如此。但我認為未來，它應該就像我們一直看到的那樣，即優質大眾將首先回歸，並且更強勁，然後是大眾。

And this is also true if you look at the retail numbers, what we've seen is 2021 very, very significant performance in the luxury retail segment. And of course, 2022, less so. But again, it's really impacted by that regional difference. And then going forward, yes, similar trends, we expect the luxury retail to come back first and the fastest and then you follow through with the mass retail.

如果您查看零售數據，這也是正確的，我們看到的是 2021 年奢侈品零售領域的非常非常顯著的表現。當然，到 2022 年，情況就更少了。但同樣，它確實受到了地區差異的影響。再往前走，是的，類似的趨勢，我們預計奢侈品零售業將首先以最快的速度回歸，然後您將跟進大眾零售業。

Looks like we lost David. We did have another question come in, from Ben Chaiken from Credit Suisse.

看起來我們失去了大衛。我們確實收到了另一個問題，來自瑞士信貸的 Ben Chaiken。

Just kind of want to level set as we close the year. I think we mentioned tour groups and e-visas for a few provinces in Shanghai, either at the end of this month or early November. Is it possible that Macau could have breakeven or positive EBITDA as we go into the -- in the fourth quarter? Or do you think that's out of the realm of expectations?

只是想在我們結束這一年時保持水平。我想我們在本月底或 11 月初提到了上海一些省份的旅行團和電子簽證。當我們進入第四季度時，澳門是否有可能實現盈虧平衡或正的 EBITDA？還是您認為這超出了預期？

Yes. I think the difficulty is, we don't know. We've been in these conditions for 2.5 years. We're very hopeful. We're going to continue to invest in Macau. We feel very strongly about Macau's future and the opportunities that exist there for leisure and business tourism but we just don't know. So as of right now, we're just waiting patiently, and we're going through the process, and we're looking forward to the opportunity for the upcoming concession.

是的。我認為困難在於，我們不知道。我們在這種情況下已經有 2.5 年了。我們很有希望。我們將繼續在澳門投資。我們對澳門的未來以及那裡存在的休閒和商務旅遊機會感到非常強烈，但我們只是不知道。所以到目前為止，我們只是耐心等待，我們正在經歷這個過程，我們期待著即將到來的讓步的機會。

Thank you. And ladies and gentlemen, this does conclude today's conference call. You may disconnect your phone lines at this time, and have a wonderful day. We thank you for your participation.

謝謝你。女士們，先生們，今天的電話會議到此結束。你可以在這個時候斷開你的電話線，並有一個美好的一天。我們感謝您的參與。