Ladder Capital Corp (LADR) 2024 Q2 法說會逐字稿

Good morning, and welcome to Ladder Capital Corp's earnings call for the second-quarter of 2024. As a reminder, today's call is being recorded. This morning, Ladder released its financial results for the quarter ended June 30, 2024.

早安，歡迎參加 Ladder Capital Corp 的 2024 年第二季財報電話會議。提醒一下，今天的通話正在錄音。今天上午，Ladder 發布了截至 2024 年 6 月 30 日的季度財務業績。

Before the call begins, I'd like to call your attention to the customary safe harbor disclosure in our earnings release regarding forward-looking statements. Today's call may include forward-looking statements and projections, and we refer you to our most recent Form 10-K for important factors that could cause actual results differ materially from these statements and projections.

在電話會議開始之前，我想提請您注意我們收益發布中有關前瞻性陳述的慣例安全港披露。今天的電話會議可能包括前瞻性陳述和預測，我們建議您參閱我們最新的 10-K 表，以了解可能導致實際結果與這些陳述和預測有重大差異的重要因素。

We do not undertake any obligation to update our forward-looking statements or projections unless required by law.

除非法律要求，否則我們不承擔任何更新前瞻性聲明或預測的義務。

In addition, Ladder will discuss certain non-GAAP financial measures on this call, which management believes are relevant to assessing the company's financial performance. The company's presentation of this information is not intended to be considered in isolation or as a substitute for the financial information presented in accordance with GAAP.

此外，Ladder 將在本次電話會議上討論某些非 GAAP 財務指標，管理層認為這些指標與評估公司的財務表現相關。公司提供的這些資訊不應被孤立地考慮，也不能取代根據 GAAP 提供的財務資訊。

These measures are reconciled to GAAP figures in our earnings supplement presentation, which is available in the Investor Relations section of our website. We also refer you to our Form-K and earnings supplement presentation for definitions of certain metrics, which we may cite on today's call.

這些指標與我們的收益補充說明中的 GAAP 數據進行了調整，該數據可在我們網站的投資者關係部分找到。我們也建議您參閱我們的 Form-K 和收益補充演示文稿，以了解某些指標的定義，我們可能會在今天的電話會議上引用這些指標。

At this time, I'd like to turn the call over to Ladder's President, Pamela McCormack.

此時，我想將電話轉給 Ladder 總裁 Pamela McCormack。

The morning. We are pleased to present an overview of Ladder's performance for the second quarter of 2020 for an update on our progress towards becoming an investment grade company. During the quarter, Ladder generated distributable earnings of $40.4 million or $0.31 per share. This performance yielded a return on equity of 10.2%, supported by modest adjusted leverage of 1.4 times.

早上。我們很高興概述 Ladder 2020 年第二季的業績，以了解我們成為投資級公司的最新進展。本季度，Ladder 產生可分配收益 4,040 萬美元，即每股 0.31 美元。在 1.4 倍適度調整槓桿的支持下，這一業績帶來了 10.2% 的股本回報率。

In addition, we successfully priced a $500 million, 7 year unsecured corporate bond offering, resulting in positive rating actions from all three rating agencies. We're pleased to note that both Moody's and Fitch placed Ladder on positive outlook and S&P upgraded both our corporate credit rating and our bonds.

此外，我們成功定價了 5 億美元的 7 年期無擔保公司債券，導致所有三個評級機構都採取了積極的評級行動。我們很高興地註意到，穆迪和惠譽都給予 Ladder 正面展望，標準普爾則升級了我們的企業信用評級和債券。

Moody's and Fitch are one notch away from refining, Ladder and investment grade rating. We believe this milestone will enhance our distinction among peers in the commercial mortgage space and position us as an attractive option for traditional equity retail investors.

穆迪和惠譽距離煉油級、階梯級和投資級評等僅差一級。我們相信，這一里程碑將增強我們在商業抵押貸款領域同行中的區別，並使我們成為對傳統股票散戶投資者有吸引力的選擇。

Pro forma for the $500 million offering, 53% of our debt is comprised of unsecured corporate bonds as of July 25, Ladder has $1.9 billion in liquidity with $1.6 billion or approximately 30% of our balance sheet, comprised of cash and cash equivalents.

截至7 月25 日，對於5 億美元的發行，我們53% 的債務由無擔保公司債券組成，Ladder 擁有19 億美元的流動資金，其中16 億美元或約占我們資產負債表的30%，由現金及現金等價物組成。

With this enhanced liquidity, we can now squarely focused on often. As we have stated in the past, our core objective is striving for the highest possible return on equity while prioritizing principal preservation and employing modest leverage.

隨著流動性的增強，我們現在可以直接專注於經常。正如我們過去所說，我們的核心目標是爭取盡可能高的股本回報率，同時優先考慮本金保全並採用適度的槓桿。

This disciplined and differentiated strategy supported by our diversified business lines and conservative capital structure has enabled Ladder to generate stable and attractive returns. Specifically over the past 12 months. And against the challenging backdrop, we reduced assets to $5 billion from $5.6 billion from loan payoffs and asset sales almost doubled our Liquidity $1.9 billion as of July 25, reduced debt resulting in a modest adjusted gross leverage of 1.4 times and 2.2 times, respectively, increased our component of unsecured debt to 53% from 40% pro forma for the bond offering that closed in July grew unencumbered assets to $3.1 billion or 62% of assets with 82% comprised of cash securities and first mortgage loans.

這種嚴謹和差異化的策略在我們多元化的業務線和保守的資本結構的支持下，使Ladder能夠產生穩定和有吸引力的回報。具體來說是過去 12 個月。在充滿挑戰的背景下，我們透過貸款償還和資產出售將資產從56 億美元減少到50 億美元，截至7 月25 日，我們的流動性19 億美元幾乎翻了一番，債務減少，導致適度調整後的總槓桿率分別為1.4 倍和2.2 倍，將我們的無擔保債務部分從7 月結束的債券發行的預計40% 增加到53%，將無負擔資產增加到31 億美元，佔資產的62%，其中82% 由現金證券和第一抵押貸款組成。

Preserved a stable book value and finally, we achieved all this while providing a healthy return on equity to shareholders of over 10% while building up a large liquidity position.

保持了穩定的帳面價值，最終，我們實現了這一切，同時為股東提供了超過 10% 的健康股本回報率，同時建立了龐大的流動性頭寸。

Turning now to our balance sheet loan portfolio, which totaled $2.5 billion as of quarter-end, with a weighted average yield of 9.48% and limited future funding commitments totaling $94 million. Our earnings for the second quarter include a $1.6 million or 5.4% gain from the sale of approximately $29 million of fixed rate loans into a recent CMBS securitization.

現在轉向我們的資產負債表貸款組合，截至季度末總計 25 億美元，加權平均收益率為 9.48%，未來融資承諾總額為 9,400 萬美元。我們第二季的收益包括將約 2,900 萬美元的固定利率貸款出售給最近的 CMBS 證券化，獲得了 160 萬美元或 5.4% 的收益。

In the second quarter, we originated a $16 million first mortgage balance sheet loan secured by an industrial portfolio in Florida. Additionally, we made a $13 million passive equity investment in a joint venture with a seasoned operating partner to strategically acquire Class A office building in the Plaza District of New York City.

第二季度，我們發放了 1,600 萬美元的第一筆抵押資產負債表貸款，由佛羅裡達州的一個工業投資組合作為擔保。此外，我們也與經驗豐富的營運合作夥伴對一家合資企業進行了 1,300 萬美元的被動股權投資，策略性收購了紐約市廣場區的甲級辦公室。

The asset was acquired from an institutional investor who owned the asset for over 20 years with favorable financing arranged with the existing lender for well-capitalized and anticipate further expansion of our loan portfolio for which our originators are actively pursuing new investments.

該資產是從一位擁有該資產20 多年的機構投資者手中收購的，並與現有貸方安排了有利的融資，資本充足，預計我們的貸款組合將進一步擴大，我們的發起人正在積極尋求新的投資。

Regarding our current loan portfolio, we remain proactive in asset management. In the second quarter, we received $255 million in loan paydowns, including the full repayment of 13 loans totaling $242 million in addition, formal loans totaling $56 million were repaid after the quarter ended.

就我們目前的貸款組合而言，我們仍然積極主動地進行資產管理。第二季度，我們收到了 2.55 億美元的貸款還款，包括全額償還了 13 筆貸款，總計 2.42 億美元，此外，季度結束後還償還了總計 5,600 萬美元的正式貸款。

Year to date, we received $668 million in total loan paydowns, including the full repayment of 32 loans totaling $618 million. We've also been active in opportunistically divesting owned real estate. In total, we sold three assets securing loans that defaulted during the first half of the year at a gain above our basis to multifamily assets located in Longview, Texas and Los Angeles, California, with a total carrying value of $20 million were sold in the second quarter, resulting in a net gain of $1 million.

年初至今，我們已收到 6.68 億美元的貸款還款總額，其中包括 32 筆貸款的全額償還，總額達 6.18 億美元。我們也積極趁機剝離自有房地產。總的來說，我們以高於我們基數的收益將三項上半年違約貸款擔保資產出售給位於德州朗維尤和加州洛杉磯的多戶資產，帳面總價值為 2,000 萬美元。第二季淨收益為100 萬美元。

Additionally, a third multifamily asset in Texas valued at $11.5 million was sold at a gain above our basis after the quarter ended, we're continuing to demonstrate that default does not necessarily lead to losses. We take pride in our capability to own and manage properties, including our readiness to inject capital when necessary for to strategically expedite asset sales as appropriate to maximize their value.

此外，德州價值 1,150 萬美元的第三處多戶型資產在季度結束後以高於我們基準的收益出售，我們將繼續證明違約並不一定會導致損失。我們對擁有和管理房產的能力感到自豪，包括我們隨時準備在必要時注入資本，以策略性地加快資產銷售，以實現其價值最大化。

There were no specific impairments identified during the quarter and we modestly increased our General CECL Reserve to $54 million, which we believe is sufficient to cover any potential loan losses we may incur.

本季沒有發現具體減值，我們將 CECL 一般儲備金適度增加至 5,400 萬美元，我們相信這足以彌補我們可能產生的任何潛在貸款損失。

Turning now to our securities and real estate portfolios. We purchased $81 million of AAA rated securities with a weighted average yield of 7.1% during the quarter. We ended the second quarter with $481 million securities portfolio, primarily consisting of AAA rated securities, earning an unlevered yield of 6.92%. And we have been actively acquiring new securities to add to the portfolio in the third quarter.

現在轉向我們的證券和房地產投資組合。本季我們購買了 8,100 萬美元的 AAA 評級證券，加權平均收益率為 7.1%。第二季末，我們擁有 4.81 億美元的證券投資組合，主要由 AAA 評級證券組成，無槓桿收益率為 6.92%。我們一直在積極收購新證券，以添加到第三季的投資組合中。

Our $947 million real estate portfolio contributed $14.7 million of net rental income in the second quarter and continues to be mainly comprised of net lease properties with long-term leases to investment grade rated tenants. We sold four properties for a net gain of $3.4 million during the quarter, including the two REO assets previously mentioned.

我們 9.47 億美元的房地產投資組合在第二季度貢獻了 1,470 萬美元的淨租金收入，並且繼續主要由向投資級評級租戶長期租賃的淨租賃物業組成。本季我們出售了四處房產，淨收益為 340 萬美元，其中包括前面提到的兩處 REO 資產。

In conclusion, we maintain ample liquidity, a strong balance sheet, conservative leverage and a well-supported dividend positioning us to seize opportunities as 2024 progresses.

總之，我們保持充裕的流動性、強勁的資產負債表、保守的槓桿率和良好的股息支持，使我們能夠抓住 2024 年的機會。

With that, I'll turn the call over to Paul.

這樣，我就把電話轉給保羅。

Thank you, Pamela. And the second quarter of 2024 Ladder generated $40.4 million of distributable earnings or $0.31 per share of distributable EPS for return on average equity of 10.2%. Our earnings in the second quarter continued to be driven by strong net interest income and stable net operating income from our real estate portfolio and was complemented by gains from sales of real estate properties.

謝謝你，帕梅拉。2024 年第二季度，Ladder 產生了 4,040 萬美元的可分配收益，或每股可分配 EPS 0.31 美元，平均股本回報率為 10.2%。我們第二季的利潤繼續受到房地產投資組合強勁的淨利息收入和穩定的淨營業收入的推動，並得到房地產銷售收益的補充。

As Pamela discussed the unsecured bond issuance that price at the end of June and closed in July, further strengthened our balance sheet letter issued $500 million of unsecured corporate bonds at 7.0% for the seven year term, which is callable after year three and 2027 unsecured corporate bonds are the foundation of our capital structure with now $2.1 billion outstanding across four issuances pro forma for the issuance of 91% of our debt is comprised of non-mark-to-market financing with 53% of total debt being unsecured corporate bonds with a weighted average maturity of over four years, an attractive weighted average fixed rate coupon of 5.2%.

帕梅拉討論了6 月底定價並於7 月結束的無擔保債券發行，進一步強化了我們的資產負債表函，發行了5 億美元的無擔保公司債券，期限為7.0%，期限為7 年，可在第三年和2027 年無擔保後贖回公司債是我們資本結構的基礎，目前四次發行的未償債務規模為21 億美元，預計我們發行的債務的91% 是非按市值計價的融資，總債務的53% 是無擔保公司債券，加權平均期限超過四年，加權平均固定利率為 5.2%，極具吸引力。

We remain committed to the corporate unsecured bond market as our primary source of financing and another close as we have been to an investment grade credit rating than at any point in history. As Pamela discussed, both Moody's and Fitch placed later on positive outlook and Moody's upgraded and unmatched the rating on our bonds to be a one, aligning our bonds with our corporate credit rating.

我們仍然致力於將企業無擔保債券市場作為我們的主要融資來源，並且我們已經達到了歷史上任何時候的投資等級信用評級。正如帕梅拉所討論的，穆迪和惠譽後來都給予了積極的前景，穆迪將我們的債券評級升級為一級，使我們的債券與我們的企業信用評級保持一致。

But definitely S&P also issued an upgrade to our rating on both our bonds and our corporate credit rating with Moody's and Fitch, just one notch away from investment grade. And now with a positive outlook on our corporate rating, [cider] is one step closer to achieving our long-held goal of becoming investment grade company, which opens Ladder to the more accessible and broader investment grade bond market where we believe Ladder will ultimately achieve a more attractive cost of capital and enhance our return on equity of shareholders over time.

但標準普爾肯定也上調了我們的債券評級以及穆迪和惠譽的企業信用評級，僅比投資等級提高了一級。現在，隨著我們對公司評級的積極展望，[cider] 離實現我們成為投資級公司的長期目標又近了一步，這為Ladder 開啟了更容易進入、更廣泛的投資級債券市場，我們相信Ladder最終將在這個市場上隨著時間的推移，實現更具吸引力的資本成本並提高股東股本回報率。

Our balance sheet remains highly liquid. As of July 25, we had $1.6 billion in cash and cash equivalents, or $1.9 billion of liquidity with our $324 million unsecured revolver, which remains fully undrawn. Our loan portfolio totaled $2.5 billion at quarter end across [85] balance sheet loans representing approximately 50% of our total assets.

我們的資產負債表仍然保持高度流動性。截至 7 月 25 日，我們擁有 16 億美元的現金和現金等價物，即 19 億美元的流動資金，其中 3.24 億美元的無擔保左輪手槍尚未全部提取。截至季末，我們的貸款組合 [85] 項資產負債表貸款總額為 25 億美元，約占我們總資產的 50%。

We did not record any specific impairments in the second quarter. However, we increased our CECL reserve by $5 million, bringing our general reserve to $54 million for an approximate 213 basis points reserve on our loan portfolio.

我們在第二季度沒有記錄任何具體減損。然而，我們將 CECL 準備金增加了 500 萬美元，使我們的一般準備金達到 5,400 萬美元，為我們的貸款組合準備金增加了約 213 個基點。

The increase was driven by the continued uncertainty in the state of the US commercial real estate market and overall global market conditions.

這一增長是由美國商業房地產市場狀況和全球整體市場狀況的持續不確定性所推動的。

Our $947 million, Real Estate segment continues to generate stable net operating income and includes [155] net lease properties, representing approximately 70% of the segment. Our net lease tenants are strong credits, primarily investment grade rated and committed to long-term leases with an average remaining lease term of eight years.

我們價值 9.47 億美元的房地產部門繼續產生穩定的淨營業收入，其中包括 [155] 淨租賃物業，約佔該部門的 70%。我們的淨租賃租戶信用良好，主要是投資等級評級，並致力於長期租賃，平均剩餘租賃期為八年。

As we have historically demonstrated, we have a long track record of maximizing the value of real estate assets that we own and operate. This was demonstrated through the sale of four properties, including the two REOs previously mentioned that generated a total of $3.4 million of net gains for distributable earnings during the second quarter.

正如我們歷史上所證明的那樣，我們在最大化我們擁有和經營的房地產資產價值方面有著悠久的記錄。這透過出售四處房產得到了證明，其中包括前面提到的兩處 REO，它們在第二季度為可分配收益帶來了總計 340 萬美元的淨收益。

As of June 30, the carrying value of our securities portfolio was $481 million. 99% of the portfolio was invested in investment grade rated with 86% being AAA rated. As of July 25, our entire securities portfolio was unencumbered and readily financeable, providing an additional source of potential liquidity, complementing the $1.9 billion of same day liquidity as of that date.

截至 6 月 30 日，我們的證券投資組合的帳面價值為 4.81 億美元。 99%的投資組合投資於投資等級評級，其中86%為AAA評級。截至 7 月 25 日，我們的整個證券投資組合不受阻礙且易於融資，提供了潛在流動性的額外來源，補充了截至該日 19 億美元的同日流動性。

As of June 30, 2024, our adjusted leverage ratio was 1.4 times and has continued to trend down as we deliver our balance sheet for producing steady earnings, strong dividend coverage and the double digit return on equity in the second quarter of 2024.

截至2024 年6 月30 日，我們的調整後槓桿率為1.4 倍，並且隨著我們在2024 年第二季度交付穩定收益、強勁股息覆蓋率和兩位數股本回報率的資產負債表，槓桿率持續下降。

As of June 30, our unencumbered asset pool stood at $3.1 billion or 62% of our balance sheet. 52% of this unencumbered asset pool is comprised of first mortgage loans, securities and unrestricted cash and cash equivalents.

截至 6 月 30 日，我們的未支配資產池為 31 億美元，佔資產負債表的 62%。此未支配資產池的 52% 由第一抵押貸款、證券以及不受限制的現金和現金等價物組成。

Our significant liquidity position, a large pool of high-quality unencumbered assets and capital structure that has been further strengthened with a new corporate bond deal provides Ladder with strong financial flexibility as we head into the second half of 2024.

我們擁有重要的流動性部位、大量優質未支配資產以及透過新的公司債交易進一步加強的資本結構，為 Ladder 在進入 2024 年下半年時提供了強大的財務靈活性。

As of June 30, Ladder's undepreciated book value per share was $13.71, which was net of the $0.42 per share of CECL. We have established for the second quarter of 2024, we repurchased $212,000 of our common stock at a weighted average price of $10.75 per share.

截至6月30日，Ladder每股未折舊帳面值為13.71美元，扣除CECL每股0.42美元的淨值。我們已確定在 2024 年第二季以每股 10.75 美元的加權平均價格回購 212,000 美元的普通股。

Year to date, through June 30, 2024, we have repurchased $860,000 of our common stock at a weighted average price of $10.77 per share. Finally, our dividend remains well covered. And in the second quarter, we declared a dividend of $0.23 per share, which was paid on July 15, 2024.

今年迄今為止，截至 2024 年 6 月 30 日，我們以每股 10.77 美元的加權平均價格回購了價值 86 萬美元的普通股。最後，我們的股息仍然得到很好的支付。在第二季度，我們宣布派發每股 0.23 美元的股息，並於 2024 年 7 月 15 日支付。

For details on our second quarter 2024 operating results, please refer to our earnings supplement, which is available on our website for the latest quarterly report on Form 10-Q, which we expect to file in the coming days. With that, I will turn the call over to Brian.

有關我們2024 年第二季度經營業績的詳細信息，請參閱我們的收益補充資料，該補充資料可在我們的網站上獲取，以獲取10-Q 表格的最新季度報告，我們預計將在未來幾天提交該報告。這樣，我會將電話轉給布萊恩。

Thanks, Paul. We're pleased with our second quarter results, especially because we were able to issue a $500 million unsecured corporate bond with constructive commentary from all three rating agencies.

謝謝，保羅。我們對第二季的業績感到滿意，特別是因為我們能夠發行 5 億美元的無擔保公司債券，並獲得所有三個評級機構的建設性評論。

Issuance was another important step in our continued quest to become an investment-grade company. It also sets the table for us to increase our asset base and grow earnings in the years ahead. With the Fed signaling that they are likely to begin an easing cycle before year end, market optimism has become more prevalent at Ladder and we share that optimism and why not.

此次發行是我們持續追求成為投資級公司的另一個重要一步。它也為我們在未來幾年增加資產基礎和增加收入奠定了基礎。隨著聯準會發出訊號，他們可能會在年底前開始寬鬆週期，市場樂觀情緒在 Ladder 變得更加普遍，我們也有同樣的樂觀情緒，為什麼不呢？

Our quarterly cash dividend is well covered despite our use of relatively low leverage while having nearly $2 billion of liquidity providing us with substantial earnings power going forward, because we are beginning to invest our significant cash position into higher yielding investments at a time when lending and commercial real estate is increasingly falling under the domain of nonbank lenders.

儘管我們使用相對較低的槓桿率，但我們的季度現金股息得到了充分支付，同時擁有近20 億美元的流動性為我們提供了巨大的未來盈利能力，因為我們開始將大量現金頭寸投資於收益率較高的投資，而此時貸款和商業房地產越來越多地屬於非銀行貸款機構的管轄範圍。

We think the future looks bright for our shareholders in the quarters ahead our loan portfolio continues to pay off at a comfortable pace. And even when we've had to take back a few properties, we've been able to sell them in short order generally at a gain to our basis.

我們認為，在未來幾個季度，我們的股東的未來看起來一片光明，我們的貸款組合將繼續以舒適的速度獲得回報。即使我們必須收回一些財產，我們也能夠在短期內以我們的基礎收益來出售它們。

We still feel like the acquisition of securities offers the best risk-reward proposition for our investment dollars. As Pamela mentioned earlier, in the second quarter, we acquired $81 million of AAA rated securities at an unlevered yield of 7.1%.

我們仍然認為，收購證券為我們的投資提供了最佳的風險回報方案。正如帕梅拉之前提到的，在第二季度，我們以 7.1% 的無槓桿收益率收購了 8,100 萬美元的 AAA 評級證券。

We have continued to acquire additional AAA securities into the third quarter. We also purchased a minority interest in a Class A office building in Midtown Manhattan for $13 million. Our purchase price was at a price of just under $350 per square foot.

進入第三季度，我們繼續收購更多 AAA 證券。我們也斥資 1,300 萬美元購買了曼哈頓中城一棟甲級辦公大樓的少數股權。我們的購買價格為每平方英尺 350 美元以下。

Our investment was made just a few weeks before news of JPMorgan's agreement to purchase 225 Park Avenue for $575 per square foot with a likely plan to tear it down and build something modern. The two assets described are just a five minute walk from each other.

我們的投資是在摩根大通同意以每平方英尺 575 美元的價格購買公園大道 225 號的消息傳出之前幾週進行的，並可能計劃將其拆除並建造一些現代化的建築。所描述的兩個資產距離彼此僅五分鐘步行路程。

The Plaza District around Grand Central Terminal in Manhattan is bucking the trend in the office sector with financial services companies like Aries capital, Blackstone, Citadel and JP Morgan, making major long-term commitments to this vibrant pocket of real estate and we hope to benefit from this momentum with our recent purchase nearby.

曼哈頓中央車站周圍的廣場區正在逆寫字樓行業的趨勢，Aries Capital、Blackstone、Citadel 和 JP Morgan 等金融服務公司對這一充滿活力的房地產做出了重大的長期承諾，我們希望從中受益我們最近在附近購買了這種勢頭。

The expectation of lower interest rates has given way to a sense that commercial real estate in general may have bottomed in the last six months, while office will be the slowest to recover overall, there is a sense that the worst may be over at this point.

利率下降的預期已經讓位於商業房地產總體可能在過去六個月內觸底的感覺，而辦公室將是整體復甦最慢的，有一種感覺最糟糕的時期可能已經過去了。

There will certainly be more foreclosures and properties changing hands. The green shoots are showing up in many places. We've even seen politicians in Philadelphia and San Francisco calling for workers to return to office in person creating safer streets.

肯定會有更多的喪失抵押品贖回權和財產易手。許多地方都出現了綠芽。我們甚至看到費城和舊金山的政客呼籲工人親自返回辦公室，創造更安全的街道。

It's become apparent that hollowed out downtown business helps ultimately cause deficits in municipal budgets and residents in many of the hardest hit places are increasingly calling for new leadership that prioritizes their safety and well-being.

很明顯，市中心商業空心最終導致市政預算赤字，許多受災最嚴重地區的居民越來越多地呼籲新的領導層優先考慮他們的安全和福祉。

While the mood of the market seems to have improved lately, caution is still warranted because liquidity is and to become almost non-existent very quickly without warning, despite new supply being on the low side for years now, credit spreads in CMBS and commercial real estate CLOs are still wide by historical standards.

雖然市場情緒最近似乎有所改善，但仍然需要謹慎，因為流動性很快就會在沒有任何警告的情況下幾乎不存在，儘管多年來新增供應量一直處於低位，CMBS 和商業房地產的信用利差以歷史標準衡量，房地產 CLO 的規模仍然很大。

That's why we like buying them, but we generally keep the AAA classes due to this concern around liquidity. Increasingly, we are seeing the actual rate on a new mortgage, especially on larger dollar amounts being set by the public markets and not by a bank lender by taking the bank out of the risk position relating to spreads.

這就是為什麼我們喜歡購買它們，但由於對流動性的擔憂，我們通常保留 AAA 級。我們越來越多地看到新抵押貸款的實際利率，特別是由公開市場確定的較大金額的利率，而不是由銀行貸款機構通過使銀行擺脫與利差相關的風險頭寸來確定的利率。

The larger investors and securities have a lot to say about what rate of borrowers should pay if they want these large buyers to buy their bonds. This new way of setting mortgage rates after the securities have been placed on order will probably be around for a while. But this shift in pricing power to the buyer of the securities away from the bank lenders is resulting in spreads staying wide at least for now, despite a general lack of supply.

如果大型投資者和證券公司希望這些大型買家購買他們的債券，那麼他們對於借款人應支付的利率有很多話要說。這種在證券訂購後設定抵押貸款利率的新方法可能會持續一段時間。但定價權從銀行貸款人手中轉移到證券買家手中，導致利差至少目前保持在較大水平，儘管供應普遍不足。

On short T-bills with rates in the mid fives has also caught the attention of a lot of these investment dollars dampening demand for mortgage bonds. But keep in mind, it's possible that the holders of the losses stemming from mortgage investments in the last decade of lower interest rates may now be involved in determining the mortgage interest rate for sponsors seeking to borrow against commercial real estate.

利率在五成左右的短期國庫券也引起了許多投資美元的關注，抑制了抵押貸款債券的需求。但請記住，在過去十年利率較低的情況下，抵押貸款投資造成的損失的持有者現在可能會參與確定尋求以商業房地產為抵押借款的發起人的抵押貸款利率。

Loans secured by unusual property types or relating to a large cash out refinancing or loans to sponsors that have walked away from other properties have been seeing wide pricing. And after the deal is first introduced to the market, that's a new development.

由不尋常的房產類型擔保的貸款，或與大筆現金再融資相關的貸款，或向放棄其他房產的贊助商提供的貸款，定價範圍很廣。在該交易首次引入市場後，這是一個新的發展。

Now that the first half of 2024 is in the history books. We can probably look forward to some much-needed relief in the second half with rates expected to fall in the quarters ahead with a large cash position, low leverage and a strong credit culture. We feel that our differentiated funding model has us in an enviable position to take advantage of the investment opportunities ahead.

如今，2024年上半年已載入史冊。我們或許可以期待下半年出現一些急需的緩解措施，由於大量現金部位、低槓桿率和強大的信貸文化，利率預計將在未來幾季下降。我們認為，我們的差異化融資模式使我們處於令人羨慕的地位，可以利用未來的投資機會。

We can now take some questions.

我們現在可以回答一些問題。

(Operator Instructions)

（操作員說明）

Stephen Laws, Raymond James. Please proceed.

史蒂芬勞斯，雷蒙德詹姆斯。請繼續。

Good morning. Hey, Brian, I want to start with the investment pipeline and focus on offense. And I know you guys both touched on the security purchases and Brian, I think you mentioned those provide the where you're seeing most attractive returns, but you've given the leverage, you don't get a lot of capital deployed there.

早安.嘿，布萊恩，我想從投資管道開始，專注於進攻。我知道你們都談到了證券購買，布萊恩，我想你提到這些提供了你看到最有吸引力的回報，但你已經給出了槓桿，你沒有在那裡部署大量資本。

So as you think about moving on offense in the second half of the year. When do you see kind of new loan investments accelerating? Is that a 3Q event or is it going to take time to kind of get the pipeline origination activity was restarted and more 4Q growth on the loan portfolio.

所以當你考慮在下半年繼續進攻時。什麼時候會看到新的貸款投資加速？這是第三季的事件，還是需要時間才能重新啟動管道發起活動以及貸款組合在第四季度出現更多增長。

And when you look at what are you looking at there are you looking at maybe helping fill the void in construction financing? Are you looking at possibly mez loans? Kind of how do you think about turning the loan originations back on?

當你看看你在看什麼時，你是否在尋找可能有助於填補建築融資方面的空白？您是否正在考慮可能的中間貸款？您如何看待重新啟動貸款發放？

So hey, a couple of things, I think you have a lot of questions there on the securities portfolio. I just want to be clear right now our securities portfolio is unlevered.

所以，嘿，有幾件事，我認為您對證券投資組合有很多問題。我只想澄清一下，目前我們的證券投資組合是無槓桿的。

So we actually are deploying class cash and it's really quite competitive with the returns on loans right now is over 7% unlevered. And given our cash position is a nice complement to that.

因此，我們實際上正在部署類現金，它確實非常具有競爭力，目前無槓桿貸款回報率超過 7%。鑑於我們的現金狀況是對此的一個很好的補充。

On the loan portfolio, which we are actively looking at loans. We are not we are not waiting to go off that on off and waiting for the right opportunities to deploy our capital. Given the fact that we are covering our dividend while and we feel comfortable with our credit, we are looking to add on accretively.

關於貸款組合，我們正在積極研究貸款。我們不是，我們不是在等待啟動並等待部署我們資本的正確機會。鑑於我們正在支付股息，同時我們對我們的信用感到滿意，我們希望增加股息。

So I do think we're starting to see the pipeline build close a little this quarter. We have loans in pipeline. But realistically, I think you'll start to see some momentum in the third quarter, and we're hoping it will really ramp up in the fourth quarter.

因此，我確實認為本季我們開始看到管道建設有所關閉。我們正在準備貸款。但實際上，我認為您將在第三季開始看到一些勢頭，我們希望它能在第四季度真正加速。

That's fine And Steve and I'll just add, I don't plan on getting into construction lending on. That's not a forte of ours. And but we do have a lot of demand right now. And the interesting part as I mentioned is that volume has been quite low in production and not just at Ladder, but also in the CMBS world or the CLO world, the Wall Street Journal published and it was about a decade from chart of CMBS and single-asset deals and single assets are up because they are usually big sponsors that have to borrow.

沒關係，史蒂夫和我補充一下，我並不打算涉足建築貸款領域。這不是我們的強項。但我們現在確實有很多需求。正如我所提到的有趣的部分是，產量一直很低，不僅在 Ladder，而且在 CMBS 世界或 CLO 世界中，《華爾街日報》發表了這一點，距離 CMBS 和單一圖表大約有十年的時間。資產交易和單一資產上升，因為它們通常是必須藉款的大贊助商。

But and the volumes have been well way down since 2017-18. And you would think normally that would create a supply problem. I mean, I'm of a lack of supply would create a pricing difficulty because it would be very tight. But in fact, the opposite is true there quite wide. In fact, mortgage spreads are nearly as wide as I've ever seen that and that doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but I do believe it gets pushed wider by T-bills, as I said, in the mid fives and also the fact that the public you've actually very quietly shifted how mortgages interest rates are made was like who sets the rate.

但自 2017-18 年以來，銷量已大幅下降。通常你會認為這會造成供應問題。我的意思是，供應不足會造成定價困難，因為供應會非常緊張。但事實上，很多地方的情況卻恰恰相反。事實上，抵押貸款利差幾乎是我所見過的最寬的，這沒有多大意義，但我確實相信它會被國庫券推得更大，正如我所說，在五世紀中期和事實上，公眾實際上已經非常悄悄地改變了抵押貸款利率的製定方式，就像利率由誰設定一樣。

And it's the we used to avoid large loans in big cities because there, frankly were too many lenders and I felt like we didn't really stand a chance at least that are hitting the hurdle rates we wanted to hit because a lot of lenders were making loans to accommodate clients that's not happening anymore, which very no one announced it and nobody sent anybody an email, but the markets are now setting the rates on mortgage deals at the closing.

我們過去常常避免在大城市發放大額貸款，因為坦白說，那裡的貸款人太多了，我覺得我們至少沒有機會達到我們想要達到的門檻利率，因為很多貸款人都為客戶提供貸款的情況已經不再發生，沒有人宣布這一點，也沒有人向任何人發送電子郵件，但市場現在正在結算時確定抵押貸款交易的利率。

So that what they'll do is they'll go out and suggest to the market a structure with a rating agency input and then the market sets the level and right now, the market just thinks that commercial real estate should be pricing wider.

因此，他們要做的就是出去向市場建議一個由評級機構投入的結構，然後市場設定水平，而現在，市場只是認為商業房地產的定價應該更廣泛。

So we have been picking up, as I think we said over $80 million in the first quarter were well over $100 million already this quarter in just the first half of July. And these yields unlevered IRR in the low sevens at [175 to 210] over, which is as the spreads, if you lever those, they lever into the 20s and down. But that was the way I envision. This is given the fact that we just raised a lot of capital, and we already had a lot of cash on Wheel traveling in unlevered state for a while.

因此，我們一直在回升，正如我們所說，第一季超過 8000 萬美元，而本季僅在 7 月上半月就已經超過 1 億美元。這些報酬率的無槓桿內部報酬率在[175至210]的低七點以上，這與利差一樣，如果你利用這些槓桿，它們就會槓桿化到20點甚至更低。但這就是我的設想。這是因為我們剛剛籌集了大量資金，而且我們已經有大量現金在無槓桿狀態下行駛了一段時間。

And then as we run out of our run, those balances down, we'll start levering not all of them well over half of the securities. And that should get us into a pretty comfortable well above dividend rate. And the when you think about the liquidity and the finance ability of those bonds relative to a whole loan at [250 or 300] Alchemy superior investment, I think. And then I think we're going to stay in that area.

然後，當我們用完我們的運行，這些餘額下降時，我們將開始槓桿化，但並非所有這些餘額都遠遠超過一半的證券。這應該會讓我們的股息率遠高於股息率。我認為，當你考慮這些債券相對於 [250 或 300] 煉金術的整體貸款的流動性和融資能力時，這是一種優越的投資。然後我想我們會留在那個地區。

And the other part is we're not missing anything. There's no volume anyway, there's just not a lot of demand. You'll hear this from banks, competitors, everybody and I guess rates are just quite wide and there's plenty of people looking to refinance assets, but you wind up in the equity by accident on a lot of those and on an acquisition. There's a lot of people chasing those, so they're quite tight. But I am very happy to be buying AAA's at [200] over rather than selling them to people at [200] over.

另一部分是我們沒有遺漏任何東西。無論如何，沒有數量，只是需求不多。你會從銀行、競爭對手、每個人那裡聽到這樣的說法，我猜利率相當寬，有很多人希望為資產進行再融資，但你在很多這樣的資產和收購中意外地獲得了股權。追的人很多，所以很緊張。但我很高興以 [200] 的價格購買 AAA，而不是以 [200] 的價格將它們賣給人們。

Appreciate the color there as well as a follow-up here around the dividend, incredibly strong coverage now seems like the outlook as you move to offense both out of cash into higher-yielding securities and loans and then eventually leverage probably sometime next year. And that coverage likely only continue increasing.

欣賞那裡的顏色以及這裡圍繞股息的後續行動，令人難以置信的強勁覆蓋現在似乎是前景，因為你將現金投入高收益證券和貸款，然後最終可能在明年的某個時候進行槓桿化。而且這種覆蓋範圍可能只會繼續增加。

So when you have your discussion with the board and you look at the dividend, that's know like a six handle yield on undepreciated book value. What are the considerations that that go around when the right time to increase that dividend or it's increasing. It's the right way to go. You know, how do you think about setting the right level for the dividend moving forward?

因此，當您與董事會進行討論並查看股息時，您會發現，這相當於未折舊帳面價值的六倍收益率。當增加股利或增加股利的正確時機時，需要考慮哪些因素？這是正確的做法。您如何看待為未來設定適當的股息水準？

Well, it is higher dividends. Follow higher earnings, especially in a recent distribute 90% of its income. So on one, the earnings will come first and then the dividend will follow. But if you just take a look at cash holdings on our balance sheet right now, if we simply lever that 50% and you can easily see how our asset base can get a lot bigger it can go up to $3 billion, and that will create tremendous earnings power.

嗯，股息更高。跟隨更高的收益，尤其是最近分配了其90%的收益。因此，首先是收益，然後是股息。但如果你現在看一下我們資產負債表上的現金持有量，如果我們簡單地槓桿化這50%，你就可以很容易地看到我們的資產基礎如何變得更大，它可以達到30 億美元，這將創造巨大的盈利能力。

So if we're out earning our dividend while holding almost $2 billion in cash it shouldn't be a big step two start thinking about raising it as we get through the tail end of the downturn and also the beginning of what I would call the expansion.

因此，如果我們在持有近 20 億美元現金的同時賺取股息，那麼當我們度過經濟低迷的尾聲以及我所說的經濟衰退的開始時，開始考慮提高股息應該不是一個大的步驟。 。

Great. I appreciate the comments this morning, Brian. Thank you.

偉大的。我很欣賞今天早上的評論，布萊恩。謝謝。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Steven Delaney, JMP Securities. Please proceed.

史蒂文·德萊尼，JMP 證券。請繼續。

Thanks. Good morning, everybody. Congrats on the new bond issue and all that, that implies and also just a very solid quarter all around.

謝謝。大家早安。恭喜新債券發行以及所有這一切，這意味著這是一個非常穩定的季度。

So look, I think we've, Brian, we've got more clarity now on the fed the outlook for the next couple of years. If we get 50 basis points this year, 100 mix, something in that magnitude and what impact will really is this kind of the overall CRE market.

所以，布萊恩，我認為我們現在對聯準會未來幾年的前景有了更清晰的了解。如果今年我們獲得 50 個基點，100 個混合基點，達到這個幅度，對整個 CRE 市場將產生真正的影響。

Obviously, that's short rate, but you've got to figure that longer intermediate rates will be impacted by the Fed's actions. Will that rate environment over the next 15, 24 months, is that going to bring threat equity institutional equity off of the sidelines into CRE?

顯然，這是短期利率，但你必須考慮到長期中間利率將受到聯準會行動的影響。未來 15,24 個月的利率環境是否會讓威脅股權機構股權脫離 CRE 的邊緣？

And is it that what you need to be able to use equity to come in the market. So that creates new transitional bridge loan opportunities. It seems like the problem is there are not enough borrowers even with the banks falling back and stepping away. Just curious how that plays out for Ladder competitively in a lower rate environment.

這就是您需要能夠利用股權進入市場的東西嗎？這創造了新的過渡性過橋貸款機會。問題似乎在於，即使銀行退縮並退出，借款人也不夠多。只是好奇在較低的利率環境下，Ladder 的競爭情況如何。

Sure. Well, I think the first step there is transaction volume will increase because more dollars will go to the equity holder than the lender relative to today. So that would be blocking them chemistry, Class A, so just for the 1st year and you would want to see transaction volume pickup if print transaction volume picks up and there there's plenty of equity around.

當然。嗯，我認為第一步是交易量將會增加，因為相對於今天，更多的美元將流向股東而不是貸方。因此，這將阻礙他們的化學反應，A 類，所以僅在第一年，如果印刷交易量增加並且周圍有大量股權，您會希望看到交易量增加。

I mean, as we mentioned, we sold I think, four properties in the quarter on typically we think about selling it and then the phone rings. And before you know, we have an auction going on and it's oftentimes people who have been looking at the asset. But not talking to us, they've been talking to the prior owner. And then yeah, we may be a little bit guilty of basis trading because I do think some of these are pretty cheap.

我的意思是，正如我們所提到的，我認為我們在本季度出售了四處房產，通常我們會考慮出售它，然後電話就會響起。在你知道之前，我們正在進行一場拍賣，通常是人們在關注該資產。但他們沒有與我們交談，而是與前業主交談。是的，我們可能對基差交易有點內疚，因為我確實認為其中一些非常便宜。

But, I think the first step is lower rates and just split the job bonus of lower rates has already created a bit of an optimistic feeling in the market that you might remember from January when we were at [Cressier] down in Miami, everybody's thinking six to eight cuts and they were ordering the expensive cabin days again. And that all fell apart pretty quickly.

但是，我認為第一步是降低利率，並將較低利率的工作獎金分開，已經在市場上產生了一種樂觀的感覺，你可能還記得一月份我們在邁阿密的[Cressier] 時，每個人都在想削減了六到八次，他們又開始訂購昂貴的客艙日。而這一切很快就崩潰了。

But this time, it kind of looks like we're at the end of their of the Fed cycle, and it looks like they're going to embark on a lower rate cycle going forward because they seem to have I've never thought they were going to get to 2% inflation.

但這一次，看起來我們正處於聯準會週期的末尾，而且看起來他們將開始進入一個較低的利率週期，因為他們似乎已經我從來沒有想過他們通膨率將達到 2%。

I think there are [3%], and I think they're going to live with that and some but then on the other hand, they now have a dual mandate. So they've got to watch. I think they've always had a dual mandate but they tend to only focus on one at a time, but as the economy is undoubtedly slowing a little bit, and I think you'll see that as they're getting a little bit more concerned about participation in the job market and juxtaposed against the 3% inflation rate.

我認為有[3%]，我認為他們會接受這一點，但另一方面，他們現在有雙重使命。所以他們必須觀察。我認為他們一直有雙重任務，但他們往往一次只關註一項任務，但隨著經濟無疑在放緩一點，我想你會看到這一點，因為他們得到了更多一點關注就業市場的參與度並與3% 的通膨率並列。

I think they'll start the incentive fighting with inflation there. They're going to make sure they don't create the jobs market. So yeah, we do need it to happen and it's healthy. It's always easier. I've been doing this for a very long time. And when stock markets are plumbing, new highs, invariably somebody sell some stock that have a big gain and they move over to buy an apartment building.

我認為他們將開始與通貨膨脹進行激勵鬥爭。他們將確保不會創造就業市場。所以，是的，我們確實需要它發生，而且它是健康的。它總是更容易。我已經這樣做很久了。當股市觸底創新高時，總是會有人賣出一些漲幅較大的股票，然後轉而購買公寓大樓。

So real estate travels with a lag factor behind stock market and the stock market continues to take. Most of the stock market valuation took place because of compression of multiples as opposed to actual earnings gains.

因此，房地產的走勢落後於股市，而股市則持續上漲。大多數股市估值是由於倍數壓縮而不是實際獲利收益而發生的。

So we'll see how they sorted out here, we're a little concerned about volatility. So despite the [ViXS] yesterday, go above 18 very quickly. So I'm not out of the woods here, and that's almost like my reference to some liquidity and how quickly can vanish, I mean, when the fixed goes from 12 to 18 on nothing, that's a little concerning.

所以我們會看看他們是如何解決的，我們有點擔心波動性。因此，儘管昨天有 [ViXS]，但很快就會突破 18。所以我還沒有走出困境，這幾乎就像我提到的一些流動性以及消失的速度，我的意思是，當固定匯率從 12 變為 18 時，這有點令人擔憂。

So I think that we're going to continue to be conservative in our approach. And as long as AAA plays at one 75 to 200 are out there, we'll let other people do the lending for a while and we'll buy the finished products. But once things stabilize and I think the Fed will steepen the curve, I'll use our bull steepened go on recently but I suspect the two year will fall more than the 10-year will rise. And once that happens, that's when the real estate market really does start catching on.

所以我認為我們將繼續採取保守的做法。只要有 75 到 200 的 AAA 遊戲，我們就會讓其他人放款一段時間，然後我們會買成品。但一旦情況穩定下來，我認為聯準會將曲線變得陡峭，我將利用最近的牛市陡峭化繼續前進，但我懷疑兩年期的下跌幅度將超過十年期的上漲幅度。一旦發生這種情況，房地產市場就真正開始流行起來。

And real quick follow-up and you did this JV partner interest in a partnership. Could we see a transaction where you saw a building? Are you and other investors created a partnership bought the building it needed to be rehabbed or whatever. Could you put equity into a project and also make bridge loan to the partnership? Would you get two bites at the same time?

真正快速的跟進，你讓這個合資夥伴對合作關係產生了興趣。我們可以查看您看到建築物的交易嗎？您和其他投資者是否建立了合作關係，購買了需要修復的建築物或其他什麼。您能否將股權投入到一個專案中，並向合夥企業提供過橋貸款？你會同時咬兩口嗎？

Sure. I'll even offer a third bite. There's a scenario where you use stretch senior and you basically make your equities a debt instrument. Sometimes we call it equity internally and on instead of just owning the real estate with the partner because all of your investment dollars are senior to his, then, you just put a rate on it. So you combine a senior with a [mez] and you take a participation in the building.

當然。我甚至會提供第三口。在一種情況下，您使用拉伸高級，基本上將您的股票變成了債務工具。有時我們稱之為內部股權，而不僅僅是與合作夥伴共同擁有房地產，因為你所有的投資資金都比他的優先，然後，你只需對其進行利率。因此，您將一名高級人員與一名[mez]結合起來，並參與建築物。

So there's three versions of it. One is yes, we could be a lender to the partnership to we could be an equity borrowers in our debt, our ultimate people with a higher stretch on the size of the loan or ultimately just the equity in the deal and bar from somebody else like we just did.

所以它有三個版本。一個是肯定的，我們可以成為合夥企業的貸款人，也可以成為我們債務中的股權借款人，我們的最終人在貸款規模上有更大的延伸，或者最終只是交易中的股權，並禁止像其他人一樣我們剛剛做到了。

Thank you very much.

非常感謝。

Sure.

當然。

Jade Rahmani, KBW. Please proceed.

傑德·拉赫馬尼，KBW。請繼續。

Thank you very much. You all have been sitting on ample amount of cash for quite some time and are in an enviable position versus competitors yet originations were pretty subdued in the quarter. So I'm wondering if you feel that the market has actually, in fact too competitive with debt funds chasing a very limited pool of deals. For example, CBRE showed commercial mortgage originations up 38% and they said debt fund volumes were up 70%. Just the market's too competitive actually?

非常感謝。你們所有人在相當長的一段時間裡都坐擁充足的現金，並且與競爭對手相比處於令人羨慕的地位，但本季度的起源相當低迷。因此，我想知道您是否認為市場實際上競​​爭過於激烈，而債務基金追逐的交易數量非常有限。例如，世邦魏理仕 (CBRE) 顯示商業抵押貸款發放量增加了 38%，債務基金數量增加了 70%。只是市場競爭太激烈了嗎？

The market, that's a big word and it covers a lot of ground, but the addressable market, in our opinion, not exclusively, but largely lands in borrowers seeking debt on acquisitions. So you just gotten rid of 75% of the addressable audience. And if it's a multifamily, then it's too competitive.

市場，這是一個很大的詞，它涵蓋了許多領域，但我們認為，可尋址市場並不完全是，而是主要涉及尋求收購債務的借款人。所以你剛剛擺脫了 75% 的目標受眾。如果是多戶住宅，那麼競爭就太激烈了。

Yeah, I think it is for, but it isn't too competitive because of too many competitors. It's because there's really no volume, but you're seeing the market react and it is of the purchase that we made during the quarter of an office building that was that's a reset on price.

是的，我認為是這樣，但由於競爭對手太多，競爭不是太激烈。這是因為確實沒有成交量，但你看到市場做出了反應，這是我們在辦公大樓的季度中進行的購買，這是價格的重置。

And as you see more and more of that happens, you'll see more and more acquisitions so long, I don't think it's too competitive. I think there is just a lack of demand when there is a high quality investment possibility on a lending assignment.

當你看到越來越多的這種情況發生時，你會看到越來越多的收購，這麼長時間以來，我認為競爭並不太激烈。我認為，當貸款任務存在高品質投資可能性時，只是缺乏需求。

It is very competitive, but it's not like they're losing money. I don't, it's not that bad. But what is happening? I think is that a lot of a lot of volume is being driven by the sake of transacting as opposed to margins or making a lot of money because I don't really understand how you make money lending it to [50 to 75] over sulphur and then selling AAA that 90 to 200 on the end, you would think with a lack of supply like you just mentioned, there is this tremendous widening going on in the securities market because I just believe the pricing mechanism is inefficient.

競爭非常激烈，但他們並沒有賠錢。我不這麼認為，事情並沒有那麼糟。但到底發生了什麼事？我認為大量的交易量是由交易驅動的，而不是利潤或賺很多錢，因為我真的不明白你如何透過硫磺借給[50至75]來賺錢然後最後以90 到200 的價格出售AAA，你會認為像你剛才提到的那樣，供應不足，證券市場正在發生巨大的擴張，因為我只是相信定價機制效率低。

And for the first time in my career, we're seeing the price of the interest rate on a mortgage is being set by the public markets, not by a banker who's taking a risk.

在我的職業生涯中，我們第一次看到抵押貸款利率的價格是由公開市場決定的，而不是由承擔風險的銀行家決定的。

On the origination side, could you say as to and the volume of term sheets you put out and the success rate you're hitting?

在發起方面，您能介紹一下您發布的投資意向書的數量以及您所達到的成功率嗎？

I'm just trying to gauge, you know, competition, if you really actually losing out on a lot of deals?

我只是想衡量，你知道，競爭，如果你真的失去了很多交易？

We're not losing out on all. We bid on something that we like we are losing some of course, you always do. But not at a fact probably at a lower clip where we're seeing fallout take place and you've got a lot of new buyers coming into the market who have been pretty good stewards of capital through the last decade and didn't really lever up on low interest rates.

我們並沒有失去一切。我們競標我們喜歡的東西，當然我們會失去一些，你總是這樣。但事實並非如此，可能是在我們看到影響發生的情況下，有很多新買家進入市場，他們在過去十年中一直是很好的資本管理者，但並沒有真正發揮槓桿作用依靠低利率。

So they're now acquiring assets at lower prices because of the reset and many of them have never seen documents from CMBS shops or CLOs. And so their bank lenders primarily and when they see our documents, so they go scary.

因此，由於重置，他們現在以較低的價格收購資產，而且他們中的許多人從未見過來自 CMBS 商店或 CLO 的文件。所以他們的銀行貸款人主要是當他們看到我們的文件時，他們會感到害怕。

And so sometimes they just step away or sometimes the rate is so high that they just funded all cash even after we signed the term sheet out. So there's a myriad of reasons why even the small volume that we are sending out isn't really coming back with productive situations, but it has little to do with competitors at lower rates and more nuanced than that.

因此，有時他們會離開，有時利率太高，即使我們簽署了條款清單，他們也只提供了所有現金。因此，有無數的原因可以解釋為什麼即使我們發出的少量產品也沒有真正帶來富有成效的情況，但這與價格較低且更細緻的競爭對手沒有什麼關係。

Okay. Just in terms of property type mix on the loan portfolio, office increased to 34% from 31%. And I think that you probably are seeing repayments, you know, proportionately outside of office, there's probably some office, but maybe more in the other asset types. Are you at all concerned about the increased concentration in office? And do you maybe provide a comment on how you feel about the office portfolio?

好的。僅就貸款組合中的房產類型組合而言，辦公室所佔比例從 31% 增至 34%。我認為你可能會看到還款，你知道，在辦公室之外，可能有一些辦公室，但其他資產類型可能更多。您是否擔心辦公室的集中度增加？您是否可以評論一下您對辦公室組合的看法？

Sure. Well, multifamily is easier, things pay off. So we are seeing that and obviously offices the hardest things pay off. So you're naturally selecting to hire as you take $1 billion in payoffs over a year. The office sector has not punching above its weight in the portfolio.

當然。嗯，多戶家庭比較容易，事情是有回報的。所以我們看到了這一點，顯然辦公室最困難的事情得到了回報。因此，當您一年內獲得 10 億美元的回報時，您自然會選擇僱用。辦公室部門在投資組合中的表現還沒有超出其重量。

What we do, particularly like about it, though, is that our office buildings loans, we look at every loan, never mind office or multifamily as if we're getting it back and if we're going to get it back we want to know what we're going to do with it. And I think you will start to see first of all, in the CMBS world, a lot of office is going into those deals.

不過，我們所做的，特別喜歡的是我們的辦公大樓貸款，我們會審視每筆貸款，不管是辦公室或多戶住宅，就好像我們要收回它一樣，如果我們要收回它，我們希望知道我們要用它做什麼。我認為您首先會開始看到，在 CMBS 領域，大量辦公室正在參與這些交易。

They're going at a very non courageous debt levels a bit but makes sense. But it used to be you couldn't put an office loan and now it's probably the highest concentration of property type. And I do believe it's because of these resets that are taking place.

他們的債務水平有點非常不勇敢，但這是有道理的。但過去你不能申請辦公室貸款，而現在它可能是最集中的房產類型。我確實相信這是因為這些正在發生的重置。

But the way we approach our office portfolio, we've been triaging some of these for a couple of years. And our sponsors are hanging in for the most part and they're paying it down and we're deleveraging these situations.

但在我們處理辦公室投資組合的方式上，我們多年來一直在對其中一些進行分類。我們的贊助商大部分都堅持不懈，他們正在償還債務，我們正在對這些情況進行去槓桿化。

So every time a borrower or writes a check for $5 million in principal and buys a cap for $1 million and post reserves for TIs and leasing commissions, you just sort of thing, Barry, that's probably not going to default. And um, and we are seeing quite a bit of that.

因此，每次借款人或寫一張本金為 500 萬美元的支票，併購買 100 萬美元的上限並為 TI 和租賃佣金提供準備金時，巴里，您可能不會違約。嗯，我們看到了很多這樣的情況。

The vast preponderance of effects in our portfolio that's happening on. We're probably the most dangerous part of the portfolio would be in large cities where there is still difficulty with many things as never mind just real estate.

我們的投資組合中正在發生的巨大優勢效應。我們的投資組合中最危險的部分可能是在大城市，那裡的許多事情仍然存在困難，更不用說房地產了。

But we'll return to work is slow, Washington DC and but we did have a couple of loans, but they're quite small in cities that they were very not well occupied buildings and they're still not well occupied and so we may very well get those back, but they're quite small. And the loan amount that we committed to never got to as big as we had committed to because yeah, for the most part, it was a poorly occupied building that is still poorly occupied. It's just in much better shape now.

但我們返回工作的速度很慢，華盛頓特區，但我們確實有幾筆貸款，但它們在城市中規模很小，因為它們不是被充分佔用的建築物，而且仍然沒有被充分佔用，所以我們可能很好把它們找回來，但它們很小。我們承諾的貸款金額從未達到我們承諾的那麼大，因為是的，在很大程度上，這是一棟居住狀況不佳的建築，而且仍然居住狀況不佳。現在情況好多了。

So there's yes, we'll get a few of them back. I'm not signaling that we're going to run through this without a problem, but we haven't taken losses you had. And that is a little surprising to me and I think we're well covered by our CECL reserve. I don't really see anything on the horizon and we're kind of at a point now to because we didn't write a lot of loans for a while.

所以是的，我們會找回其中一些。我並不是說我們會毫無問題地度過這個難關，但我們並沒有承受你們所遭受的損失。這讓我有點驚訝，我認為我們的 CECL 儲備已經很好地覆蓋了我們。我真的沒有看到任何即將發生的事情，我們現在已經到了這個時候了，因為我們有一段時間沒有發放大量貸款。

There we're getting to the point where we understand every loan in the portfolio and where the problems may come from. There are borrowers who tell us they're going to give us the keys and then they don't. And so it's a little hard to predict that. But for the most part, we worry about basis and as evidenced by the fact that we went out and bought an office building and rather it wasn't a foreclosure.

到這裡，我們就了解了投資組合中的每筆貸款以及問題可能來自何處。有些借款人告訴我們他們要把鑰匙給我們，但他們沒有。所以預測這一點有點困難。但在大多數情況下，我們擔心基礎，事實證明我們出去買了一棟辦公大樓，而不是取消抵押品贖回權。

It wasn't when we had no relationship to it. Prior to that, we just thought it was cheap. And so we're happy to step out of our typical suite and do something a little different. And we're not overly concerned about our office portfolio when I say not overly concerned, I don't see us getting through a $50 million CECL reserve, but unlikely.

不是當我們與它沒有關係的時候。在此之前，我們只是認為它很便宜。因此，我們很高興走出我們典型的套房，做一些不同的事情。當我說「不要過度擔心」時，我們並沒有過度擔心我們的辦公室投資組合，我認為我們不會用完 5000 萬美元的 CECL 儲備金，但可能性不大。

Great. Thanks so much.

偉大的。非常感謝。

Sure.

當然。

Tom Catherwood, BTIG. Please proceed.

湯姆·凱瑟伍德，BT​​IG。請繼續。

Thank you, and good morning, everybody. Maybe Pamela or Paul, appreciate the commentary in your prepared remarks on Moody's and Fitch as outlook for latter. What are the next steps or hurdles that the rating agencies are looking for as you progress toward investment grade rating?

謝謝大家，大家早安。也許帕梅拉或保羅，欣賞您準備好的關於穆迪和惠譽的評論中的評論，作為後者的前景。當您邁向投資等級時，評級機構正在尋找哪些後續步驟或障礙？

If I could start and Paul feel free to jump in the short story is we have met the objective. They have objective tests and we met them already with the last issuance, which is why I think you saw some positive action on us. I think we made it really difficult for them to do nothing.

如果我可以開始，保羅可以隨意跳入短篇小說，那麼我們就已經達到目標了。他們有客觀的測試，我們在上一次發佈時已經滿足了他們的要求，這就是為什麼我認為你看到了我們採取的一些積極行動。我認為我們讓他們很難無所事事。

We would have liked to have achieved the investment grade rating when we hit the hurdle. But given the market backdrop in commercial real estate, all the agencies were reluctant to do anything too aggressive in terms of an investment grade rating in this environment.

當我們遇到困難時，我們希望能夠獲得投資等級評級。但考慮到商業房地產的市場背景，所有機構都不願意在這種環境下在投資評級方面採取過於激進的做法。

So if you ask me with a not a lot of knowledge. I can tell you. I think if we continue to perform, we demonstrate what Brian said earlier, we have real confidence in our CECL reserve, which is currently $54 million.

所以如果你問我知識不多。我可以告訴你。我認為，如果我們繼續表現，我們就證明了布萊恩之前所說的，我們對 CECL 儲備金（目前為 5400 萬美元）充滿信心。

We think that should be more than ample to cover any potential losses we may incur as we turn the balance sheet. The market moves out of this state of distress and we start to see rates come down. I think with the next issuance, we are very hopeful to see an investment grade rating.

我們認為，這應該足以彌補我們在調整資產負債表時可能遭受的任何潛在損失。市場擺脫了這種困境，我們開始看到利率下降。我認為在下一次發行中，我們非常希望看到投資等級評級。

Paul, is there anything you'd want to add for this.

保羅，你有什麼要補充的嗎？

As we mentioned in my remarks, Tom, 53% of our liabilities are now unsecured corporate bonds, and we're well over 50% in other words in and utilizing unsecured corporate bonds, our liability structure. So it's not that quantitatively within the within the hurdle, it's really a matter of the CRE backdrop. We think it's the biggest hurdle.

正如我們在演講中提到的，湯姆，我們現在 53% 的負債是無擔保公司債券，換句話說，我們的負債結構中超過 50% 的債務都在使用無擔保公司債券。因此，這並不是數量上的障礙，而是商業不動產背景的問題。我們認為這是最大的障礙。

Understood. Appreciate those thoughts.

明白了。欣賞這些想法。

And then last for me, maybe, Brian, given your comment earlier that you're happier to be acquiring securities at 175 to 210 over rather than originating them, is it likely that activity on the conduit side of the business could remain more muted in the near term?

最後對我來說，布萊恩，考慮到您先前的評論，即您更樂意以 175 至 210 美元的價格收購證券，而不是發行證券，那麼業務管道方面的活動是否可能在近期？

Likely. I think and you'll really see the first sign of a filing out in that business will be when you don't have 13 originators each putting in three loans. And that's a pretty unusual roster of originators and that just tells you they don't have enough size or demand to go it alone. So they're combining forces with a lot of other lenders.

有可能。我認為，當您沒有 13 個發起人每人發放三筆貸款時，您就會真正看到該業務中的第一個跡象。這是一個非常不尋常的發起人名單，這只是告訴你他們沒有足夠的規模或需求來單獨行動。因此，他們正在與許多其他貸方聯手。

But I think the security, the CMBS business will pick up when you see a steepening of the yield curve because if you write a 10-year loan off of a rate that's lower than a base rate, that's lower than the two year. You have to hedge that. And when you start hedging a 10-year that's below the two year, you start if there is no carry in the business pretty much.

但我認為，當你看到殖利率曲線變得陡峭時，證券、CMBS 業務將會回升，因為如果你以低於基本利率的利率沖銷 10 年期貸款，則低於兩年期貸款。你必須對沖這一點。當你開始對沖低於兩年期的十年期債券時，如果業務中幾乎沒有利差，你就開始對沖。

And it is a substantial component of profitability when the business is functioning properly. So I think the as the Fed cuts rates, the curve to steepen and that business will pick up, it will start in the 5-year category and it will progress to the 10-year category.

當業務正常運作時，它是獲利能力的重要組成部分。因此，我認為，隨著聯準會降息，曲線變得陡峭，業務將會回升，它將從 5 年期類別開始，並將發展到 10 年期類別。

Got it. That's it for me. Thanks, everyone.

知道了。對我來說就是這樣。謝謝大家。

Okay.

好的。

(Operator Instructions)

（操作員說明）

Matthew Howlett, B. Riley Securities. Please proceed.

馬修‧豪利特 (Matthew Howlett)，B. 萊利證券 (Riley Securities)。請繼續。

Yeah, thanks. Good morning. Just to follow up on the investment grade rating, but what do you think it will save you in terms of I know it might be once you get it, it might be in terms of the yields on the new debt, the issue, but just sort of what do you think you can do debt that you did was 7% on a seven year debt renewed. Just curious what do you think will save you?

是的，謝謝。早安.只是為了跟進投資等級評級，但你認為它會給你帶來什麼，我知道一旦你得到它，它可能會在新債務的收益率方面，這個問題，但只是您認為您可以償還債務嗎？您所做的債務是續簽七年債務的7％。只是好奇你認為什麼會拯救你？

I think Pamela, you can take if you want, but I would just say that the first one probably not that much because you're kind of new to the space, but because it's we've done seven issues at this point, never know, but if I were and I'll listen and probably may know better than I, but I would quickly confident 200 basis points to in the beginning and maybe 300 at the end, I think it's a little a little less than that on the crossover credit.

我認為帕梅拉，如果你願意的話，你可以接受，但我只想說，第一個問題可能不是那麼多，因為你是這個領域的新手，但因為我們目前已經做了七期，永遠不知道，但如果我是，我會聽，可能比我更了解，但我很快就會有信心在開始時有200 個基點，最後可能是300 個基點，我認為這比交叉時的基點要少一點信用。

I think we're hoping to build into. But on the first crossover credit, when we next issuance, we would hope to save at least 50 basis points. I think for us, Matt, it's a longer-term play. We think that there's a real spot in the world for us of mortgage rate with primarily basically exclusively at this point senior secured assets delivering a high single digit, low double digit return.

我想我們希望能夠建立起來。但在第一次交叉信貸時，當我們下次發行時，我們希望節省至少 50 個基點。我認為對我們來說，馬特，這是一個長期的遊戲。我們認為，抵押貸款利率在世界上有一個真正的位置，目前基本上完全是優先擔保資產提供高個位數、低兩位數的回報。

And the reality for latter is given our high insider ownership and internal management. We have consistently run this company since we opened the doors in 2008 with leverage of two to three times. So it is not at that is the leverage constraints we'll be living with. The only difference will be that we'll have a higher component of unsecured debt, which in this environment we think has proven to be not only on safer but accretive at a time like this.

後者的現實是我們高度的內部持股和內部管理。自 2008 年開業以來，我們一直以兩到三倍的槓桿經營這家公司。因此，我們將面臨的槓桿限制並非如此。唯一的區別是，我們將擁有更高比例的無擔保債務，在這種環境下，我們認為事實證明，在這樣的時刻，這些債務不僅更安全，而且還會增值。

I think we have the lowest cost of funds on the street right now. So for us, I think the way we think about it is we will have long term savings and were also very, we're looking forward to trying to convert traditional equity rate investors because we basically check every one of their boxes in terms of internal management, insider ownership, low mark-to-market debt and the investment grade bonds is really the only box we don't check will be a little bit constrained by.

我認為我們現在的資金成本是街上最低的。因此，對我們來說，我認為我們的想法是，我們將擁有長期儲蓄，我們非常期待嘗試轉變傳統的股權利率投資者，因為我們基本上會在內部方面檢查他們的每一個方框。 、內部人所有權、低市價債務和投資等級債券確實是我們唯一不勾選的選項，會受到一些限制。

We're not obviously going to be a huge growth company, but we think that there will be a big appetite for us, and we don't think we'll just see it on the debt side, we think we'll see a conversion of our institutional and retail ownership on the debt on the equity side as well.

我們顯然不會成為一家巨大的成長型公司，但我們認為我們會有很大的胃口，而且我們認為我們不會只在債務方面看到它，我們認為我們會看到我們的機構和零售所有權也轉換為股權債務。

What I'd also add, Matt is some you have to watch flow of funds and like where things are going right now with the high yield market is not charging a lot of premium because there's not a lot of defaults. But if you just look at ETFs like J&K and [LQD], it will give you an idea of the differential, although because we are in the commercial real estate business today, we trade on the wide end and we're up because we're not a single B, we probably are more towards the middle of the high yield index.

我還想補充一點，馬特是一些你必須觀察資金流動的人，就像現在的情況一樣，高收益市場不會收取太多溢價，因為沒有太多違約。但如果你只看像 J&K 和 [LQD] 這樣的 ETF，它會讓你了解其中的差異，儘管因為我們今天從事商業房地產業務，所以我們在寬端進行交易，並且我們上漲是因為我們「如果不是單一的B，我們可能更傾向於高收益指數的中間。

On the other hand, if we and that's a four year, it's not a seven year on average, but if we were to go to an investment grade credit, but the LQD is divide a little over 5%. So we avoid 50th maybe aggressive. It's hard to say. But the first time you go, you'll learn a lot and you'll probably not get the rate you want because you look at the index into they're going to say your new were penalizing you.

另一方面，如果我們是四年，那麼平均不是七年，但如果我們要獲得投資級信用，但 LQD 的差距略高於 5%。所以我們避免第 50 個可能具有攻擊性的。很難說。但是第一次去的時候，你會學到很多東西，而且你可能不會得到你想要的利率，因為你查看索引，他們會說你的新人正在懲罰你。

So they will, however, in the long term the high yield market is the size of the corporate bond market in the investment grade. It is massively higher than the junk bond market. So you've got a much bigger group of people and they tend to own the same names over and over and nobody owns us in the high end the investment grade space.

然而，從長遠來看，高收益市場的規模與投資等級公司債市場的規模相當。它遠高於垃圾債券市場。因此，你有一個更大的群體，他們往往一遍又一遍地擁有相同的名字，而在高端投資等級領域，沒有人擁有我們。

So it's a lot of factors that go into it, but I still say you price wise the first time. And then after that, you do better.

所以這涉及很多因素，但我仍然建議你第一次就考慮價格。然後在那之後，你會做得更好。

What's clearly going to put you in a stronger position. We already have the best probably best balance sheet in the space right now. And I guess where I'm going with this is I mean, we feel the news we see that your peers big and small having issues, Brian, I mean, at what point do you think at what point would you get aggressive deal or are you getting calls from bankers?

什麼顯然會讓你處於更有利的地位。我們現在已經擁有該領域最好的、可能是最好的資產負債表。我想我要說的是，我的意思是，我們感覺到我們看到的消息，你的大大小小的同行都遇到了問題，布萊恩，我的意思是，你認為在什麼時候你會得到積極的交易或您接到銀行家的電話嗎？

You're looking at it may be taking something over, you know, over time. I mean, would you want to make a splash? I mean, you've got obviously tons of cash tons of liquidity and there's a lot of peers struggling it. It's obviously could be a lot of flow coming out of the banks over time we keep hearing. But what about making a splash are you saving the capital for that?

你知道，隨著時間的推移，你看到的它可能會接管一些東西。我的意思是，你想引起轟動嗎？我的意思是，你顯然擁有大量現金和流動性，而許多同行都在苦苦掙扎。我們不斷聽到，隨著時間的推移，顯然可能會有大量資金從銀行流出。但是，你是否為此節省了資金，想要引起轟動呢？

No, on the Latter is a not a flashy company at all and not at all interested in making a splash again far more interested in just developing an attractive return profile safely. We don't like paying flashy buildings. We don't like the classic companies and we don't like high leverage, which makes us a little unique in the retail space.

不，後者根本不是一家浮華的公司，也完全沒有興趣再次引起轟動，而更感興趣的是安全地開發有吸引力的回報概況。我們不喜歡花錢購買華麗的建築。我們不喜歡經典公司，也不喜歡高槓桿，這使我們在零售領域有點獨特。

So no, we're not saving it. We just think there's a big opportunity coming, but we'll probably stick to our knitting on the only thing I would tell you that I think is developing is if you have a $20 million loan, you think you can refinance it.

所以不，我們不會保存它。我們只是認為有一個巨大的機會即將到來，但我們可能會堅持我們的編織，我想告訴你的唯一一件事是，我認為正在發展的是，如果你有2000 萬美元的貸款，你認為你可以為其再融資。

I mean, there are there's a placing you may pay more than you want to, but it's not like it can't be done. And if you have a $350 million loan, you can go to one of the big banks and have them take it to the rating agency. And yes, they'll take you to market and the market will tell you what your rate is. But if you have an $80 million or $90 million loan you're sort of in this air pocket between too big for a bank and too small for a single asset deal. So I think that $70 million, $80 million, $90 million area is a very, very attractive place for somebody who wants to commit capital without going to with the certainty of the capital markets spread.

我的意思是，有些地方你可能會付出比你想要的更多的錢，但這並不是做不到。如果你有 3.5 億美元的貸款，你可以去一家大銀行，讓他們把貸款交給評級機構。是的，他們會帶你去市場，市場會告訴你你的利率是多少。但如果你有 8000 萬或 9000 萬美元的貸款，那麼你就處於這樣一個氣穴：對於銀行來說太大，而對於單一資產交易來說又太小。因此，我認為 7000 萬美元、8000 萬美元、9000 萬美元的區域對於那些想要投入資金但又不想確定資本市場利差的人來說是一個非常非常有吸引力的地方。

So to me, that's the inefficiency that has bubbled up here that I think will stay there for a little while. That's the trick to that, though, is if you want to start writing $80 million loans to securitize them. You can't write two or three of them.

所以對我來說，這就是這裡出現的低效率問題，我認為這種情況會持續一段時間。不過，如果你想開始發放 8,000 萬美元的貸款來將其證券化，這就是訣竅。你不能寫其中的兩個或三個。

You have to write $10 million or $20 million of them and therein is the rough. But I think if the volume picks up and transactions of the buildings start getting. So I think we might very well go into that kind of a space and acquire $1.2 billion worth of loans and do a sing single sponsor, a securitization where we hold the B piece because we know all the credit and go sell via the bonds to the public, but we would have the rate on the mortgage definition because they won't all close on one day.

你必須寫出 1000 萬美元或 2000 萬美元，這就是粗略的內容。但我認為，如果成交量增加並且建築物的交易開始增加。因此，我認為我們很可能會進入這種領域，獲得價值 12 億美元的貸款，並進行單一贊助商的證券化，我們持有 B 部分，因為我們知道所有的信用，並透過債券將其出售給公開，但我們會了解抵押貸款定義的利率，因為它們不會在某一天全部關閉。

Got you. And just to follow up on that one of your newer peers came out and sort of said, there's got to be the secondary market supplied. Let's just say I don't think he's talking about securities as much as you're talking about just senior loans as forward and then saying levered yields are between 12% and 16% and we've raised the fund Enrique dedicated just to taking all this stuff down, presumably mostly from the banks over the next few years.

明白你了。只是為了跟進你的一位新同行出來並說，必須有二級市場供應。這麼說吧，我認為他談論的證券不像你談論的只是高級貸款和遠期貸款，然後說槓桿收益率在 12% 到 16% 之間，我們已經籌集了 Enrique 專門用於吸收所有資金的基金這些東西下來，想必主要是未來幾年來自銀行的。

Do you see that secondary market opportunity where the banks just capitulate due to the capital rules and you see the leverage yields?

您是否看到了二級市場的機會，即銀行因資本規則而屈服，而您看到了槓桿收益率？

I mean the banks, the banks are under a lot of regulatory pressure so that that part is true. And I but I would just say that a bank selling loans probably with some financing generating a 12% to 16%, that's fine. But why would you do that if you can make 20% to 25% on a AAA spreads and with leverage obviously and the safety of being able to sell it pretty in most markets pretty quickly.

我的意思是銀行，銀行承受著很大的監管壓力，所以這部分是正確的。我只是想說，銀行出售貸款可能會產生 12% 到 16% 的融資，這很好。但是，如果您可以在 AAA 價差上賺取 20% 到 25% 的利潤，並且具有明顯的槓桿作用，並且能夠在大多數市場上快速賣出，那麼您為什麼要這樣做呢？

So I don't think I would steer Ladder towards taking a risk at 12%, 13% on a bank sale, I would prefer we move into the safety of AAAs and yeah, as Pamela said, we're not levering them right now at all. So yes, we have a lot of cash. And yes, we have a lot of liquidity. We also have a few hundred million dollars of unlevered triple plays to if we feel like generating some cash.

因此，我不認為我會引導 Ladder 在銀行出售中承擔 12%、13% 的風險，我更希望我們進入 AAA 的安全狀態，是的，正如帕梅拉所說，我們現在不會利用它們根本不。所以是的，我們有很多現金。是的，我們有大量的流動性。如果我們想賺取一些現金，我們還有數億美元的無槓桿三重播放。

The key for us at this point has been to keep the balance sheet, fortress-like and investors gravitate towards strong balance sheets during difficult times. But as it airs itself out and you get a little long in the tooth in the cycle at these yields will compress. I don't believe we're going to be talking about AAA's at 200 over who are 190 over for much longer.

目前對我們來說，關鍵是保持資產負債表像堡壘一樣，讓投資者在困難時期傾向於強勁的資產負債表。但當它自行排出並且你在循環中的牙齒上有一點長時，這些產量就會壓縮。我不相信我們會在 200 歲以上談論 AAA 級 190 歲以上的人。

But these are programs that have been hanging around. The hoop of our originators are actively talking to the banks and we are watching anything that is or will be coming for sale.

但這些都是一直存在的計劃。我們的發起人正在積極與銀行交談，我們正在關注任何正在或將要出售的東西。

We're looking at and considering it in the context of what Brian just said, and it simply isn't just living through the financial crisis. And no, it's not everything was AAA that they said was AAA, these are real triple AAA and like 20% subordination, I mean, are they today?

我們正在布萊恩剛才所說的背景下審視和考慮它，這不僅僅是經歷金融危機。不，並不是所有東西都是 AAA，他們說的是 AAA，這些是真正的三重 AAA，就像 20% 的從屬關係，我的意思是，今天是這樣嗎？

I mean, what mean they have 70% subordination? Additionally, I mean, that's just incredible. What interestingly, what goes on in the CLO market is as loans default in which they're picking up the pace there. If the sponsor is in good shape, we pull them out of the deal and it looks like a payoff.

我的意思是，他們有 70% 的從屬關係是什麼意思？另外，我的意思是，這太不可思議了。有趣的是，CLO 市場上發生的情況是貸款違約，而且貸款違約的速度正在加快。如果贊助商狀況良好，我們就會將其退出交易，這看起來像是一種回報。

And so that is good unless you own it at a premium. But if you can buy them at 99 and get paid par on a defaulted loan, that's very attractive. So I would say the in the CLO space, the subordination level starts at 40-45. And if you get through a few payoffs or defaults, you quickly get to 60% or 70% subordination and they're still trading very well.

所以這很好，除非你以溢價擁有它。但如果你能以 99 美元的價格購買它們，並以面值償還拖欠貸款，那就非常有吸引力了。所以我想說，在 CLO 領域，從屬層級從 40-45 開始。如果你經歷了幾次支付或違約，你很快就會達到 60% 或 70% 的從屬地位，而且他們的交易仍然很好。

That's incredible. I mean, I hope you'll stay around with, you know, for a while. But like you said?

那真是難以置信。我的意思是，我希望你能留下來一段時間。但就像你說的？

I don't either, we're very good at taking what the market gives us rather than forcing our opinions. So we can live a long time. We don't need the market to tighten. We don't need to lever them. But yeah, if the market does tighten, we'll sell some and maybe we will lever some others when we need to. But the best time to borrow money is when you don't need money

我也不認為，我們非常善於接受市場給我們的東西，而不是強迫我們的意見。這樣我們才能活得長久。我們不需要市場收緊。我們不需要撬動它們。但是，是的，如果市場確實收緊，我們會出售一些，也許我們會在需要時槓桿化其他一些。但藉錢的最佳時機是當你不需要錢的時候

And I think in our supplement on our website, if you want to just get a picture that sold all the bonds. It's on page 5. It's a snapshot of us last year and this year and when we looked at the rating agencies, they were saying it's very difficult market and we said, look what we did in that market.

我認為在我們網站上的補充中，如果您只想獲得一張出售所有債券的圖片。這是第 5 頁。這是我們去年和今年的快照，當我們查看評級機構時，他們說這是一個非常困難的市場，我們說，看看我們在那個市場做了什麼。

Let's go back a year. We took $1 billion in payoffs and we delivered the company. We raised a lot of cash. So yes, that's experienced. You know, we've been out and bad weather before and we saw it there for what it was.

讓我們回到一年前。我們獲得了 10 億美元的回報，並交付了公司。我們籌集了大量現金。所以是的，這是有經驗的。你知道，我們以前也曾出去過，遇到過惡劣的天氣，但我們在那裡看到了它的本來面目。

And we're not out of it yet. We still think there's a little bit left in this in this downturn, but I think we're past the most dangerous part that I don't think we'll be surprised by anything at this point for Innolux even.

我們還沒有擺脫困境。我們仍然認為在這次低迷時期還剩下一點點，但我認為我們已經度過了最危險的部分，我認為即使對於群創來說，我們現在也不會對此感到驚訝。

Right. All right. All along, Brian, on the stuff that I give you credit will definitely pay attention to you when you give out that when you call [bottoms] like this and start talking about things that, I certainly pay attention. So I really appreciate all that color.

正確的。好的。一直以來，布萊恩，在我給你信任的東西上，當你發出這樣的聲音時，我肯定會關注你，當你像這樣打電話給[底部]並開始談論我當然會關注的事情時。所以我真的很欣賞這些顏色。

Yeah, I mean, if you think no one's ever go into an office again, probably we might have something wrong here. I don't believe that I don't think it's ever going back the way it was. I don't think people are going to be charging off the beaches and the Hansen's at three o'clock on Sunday to get to work on Monday.

是的，我的意思是，如果你認為再也沒有人走進辦公室，可能我們這裡可能出了問題。我不相信我認為它永遠不會回到原來的樣子。我不認為人們會在周日三點從海灘和漢森出發去週一上班。

But on balance, I if you're only in the office four days a week. Are you still rent the office and the main difference in the office space isn't that you can't rent it. You tend to have to pay a lot for a tenant. But in most of our office loans, the buildings are being leased and they're being leased at rents that were higher than we underwrote the biggest problem is they're not fully leased.

但總的來說，如果你每週只在辦公室待四天。你還在租辦公室嗎？您往往需要為租客支付很多費用。但在我們大多數的辦公貸款中，建築物正在出租，而且它們的租賃租金高於我們承保的租金，最大的問題是它們沒有完全出租。

There's a lot of cost involved in a tenant acquisition to get them in the building and the ROE is just poor. And when you ask them to go buy a cap at 1% or 2% when the prevailing. So for rate is [530], yes, it gets very expensive. So I think what you'll see and not just with latter, but you'll see this with a lot of other people to they're going to be taking buildings back that are they're doing okay, and they're not empty and there, if there's some cash flow, it may not be perfect, but it wouldn't signal a large loss either.

為了讓租戶入住大樓，需要花費大量成本，而淨資產回報率卻很差。而當你要求他們去買的時候，上限是1%或2%。因此，對於價格為 [530] 的情況，是的，它變得非常昂貴。所以我認為你會看到的不僅僅是後者，你還會看到很多其他人，他們將收回建築物，他們做得很好，而且它們不是空的在那裡，如果有一些現金流，可能並不完美，但也不會意味著巨大的損失。

Well, you certainly made a great call in New York City. You were one of the first to call that home. Congrats on that.

嗯，你在紐約市確實打了一個很棒的電話。你是第一個稱之為家的人之一。對此表示祝賀。

You can feel it right. I mean New York City and doing better. And if you walk around that area, of the fires, administrating the north, the Grand Central on Park Avenue or that that's doing just fine. And when I say, finding very massive expansion going on there. And so the idea that I don't think JPMorgan is buying an extra building next to its headquarters because they think the office market is going south.

你可以感覺到它是對的。我指的是紐約市並且做得更好。如果你在那個地區走走，火災的地區，管理北部的地區，公園大道上的中央車站或那些都做得很好。當我說的時候，發現那裡正在發生非常大規模的擴張。因此，我認為摩根大通不會在其總部旁邊購買額外的建築，因為他們認為辦公市場正在走下坡。

Great, I really appreciate it.

太好了，我真的很感激。

Sure. Thank you.

當然。謝謝。

Ladies and gentlemen, there are no further questions at this time. I would like to turn the call back to Brian Harris for any closing remarks.

女士們、先生們，目前沒有其他問題了。我想將電話轉回給布萊恩·哈里斯，請他發表結束語。

I'll just end by saying thank you for hanging with us, especially thank you to the bondholders that that purchase that our recent offering. We won't like it down there, and we hope to be revisiting that space down the road and investment grade outfit. So thanks again and see you soon. Bye.

最後，我要感謝您與我們在一起，特別感謝購買我們最近發行的債券的債券持有人。我們不會喜歡那裡，我們希望能在未來重新審視這個空間和投資級裝備。再次感謝，很快再見。再見。

This concludes today's conference. You may now disconnect your lines. Enjoy the rest of your day.

今天的會議到此結束。現在您可以斷開線路。享受你一天剩下的時間。