Ladder Capital Corp (LADR) 2023 Q4 法說會逐字稿

Good morning and welcome to Ladder Capital Corp's Earnings Call for the Fourth Quarter of 2023. As a reminder, today's call is being recorded. This morning ladder released its financial results for the quarter and year ended December 31st, 2023.

早安，歡迎參加 Ladder Capital Corp 的 2023 年第四季財報電話會議。提醒一下，今天的通話正在錄音。今天上午，Ladder 發布了截至 2023 年 12 月 31 日的季度和年度財務業績。

Before the call begins, I'd like to call your attention to the customary safe harbor disclosure in our earnings release regarding forward-looking statements. Today's call may include forward-looking statements and projections, and we refer you to our most recent Form 10 K for important factors that could cause actual results to differ materially from these statements and projections. We do not undertake any obligation to update our forward-looking statements or projections unless required by law.

在電話會議開始之前，我想提請您注意我們收益發布中有關前瞻性陳述的慣例安全港披露。今天的電話會議可能包含前瞻性陳述和預測，我們建議您參閱我們最新的 10 K 表，以了解可能導致實際結果與這些陳述和預測有重大差異的重要因素。除非法律要求，否則我們不承擔任何更新前瞻性聲明或預測的義務。

In addition, Ladder will discuss certain non-GAAP financial measures on this call, which management believes are relevant to assessing the company's financial performance. The Company's presentation of this information is not intended to be considered in isolation or as a substitute for the financial information presented in accordance with GAAP. These measures are reconciled to GAAP figures in our earnings supplement presentation, which is available in the Investor Relations section of our web. We also refer you to our Form 10 K and earnings supplement presentation for definitions of certain metrics, which we may cite on today's call.

此外，Ladder 將在本次電話會議上討論某些非 GAAP 財務指標，管理層認為這些指標與評估公司的財務表現相關。本公司提供的這些資訊不應被孤立地考慮或作為根據 GAAP 提供的財務資訊的替代品。這些措施與我們的收益補充簡報中的公認會計準則資料進行了協調，該簡報可在我們網站的投資者關係部分中找到。我們也建議您參閱我們的 10 K 表格和收益補充說明，以了解某些指標的定義，我們可能會在今天的電話會議上引用這些指標。

At this time, I'd like to turn the call over to Ladder's President, Pamela McCormack.

此時，我想將電話轉給 Ladder 總裁 Pamela McCormack。

Good morning. We are pleased to provide an overview of Ladder's financial performance for the fourth quarter and full year 2023. In the fourth quarter, Ladder generated distributable earnings of $40 million or $0.32 per share, resulting in a 10.5% return on equity.

早安.我們很高興概述 Ladder 第四季和 2023 年全年的財務表現。第四季度，Ladder 實現可分配收益 4,000 萬美元，即每股 0.32 美元，股本回報率為 10.5%。

For the full year 2023 by reported distributable earnings of $167.7 million or $1.34 per share, generating a 10.9% return on equity flat as demonstrated notable financial strengthening across key metrics over the course of the year with a smaller asset base and lower leverage, we achieve higher returns. Our adjusted leverage ratio stands at 0.7 times, excluding investment grade securities and unrestricted cash and cash equivalent.

2023 年全年，報告的可分配收益為1.677 億美元，即每股1.34 美元，股本回報率為10.9%，這表明全年關鍵指標的財務狀況顯著增強，資產基礎較小，槓桿率較低，我們實現更高的回報。我們調整後的槓桿率為0.7倍，不包括投資等級證券及不受限制的現金及現金等價物。

Distributable earnings increased 13% year over year and undepreciated book value increased to $13.79. Our financial performance benefited from a positive correlation to rising interest rates with net interest income growing 58%. Our commitment to an unsecured capital structure contributed to this growth as we benefited from $[1.6] billion of unsecured bonds at a low fixed rate weighted average coupon of 4.7%.

可分配收益年增 13%，未折舊帳面價值增至 13.79 美元。我們的財務表現受惠於利率上升的正相關性，淨利息收入成長了 58%。我們對無擔保資本結構的承諾促進了這一增長，因為我們受益於 16 億美元的無擔保債券，固定利率加權平均票面利率較低，為 4.7%。

We increased our liquidity position to over $1.3 billion by year end with cash and cash equivalents up 67% year over year. In 2023, we received approximately $1 billion in cash from paydowns of loans and securities which was accompanied by a $462 million or 11% reduction in total leverage.

到年底，我們的流動性部位增加到超過 13 億美元，現金和現金等價物年增 67%。2023 年，我們從償還貸款和證券中獲得了約 10 億美元現金，同時總槓桿率減少了 4.62 億美元，即 11%。

Future funding commitments also declined by over $100 million or 36% and our unencumbered asset increased to 55% of total assets. In addition, dividend coverage also rose to 146% in 2023, reinforcing the state and durability of our dividend.

未來的資金承諾也減少了 1 億多美元，即 36%，我們的未支配資產增加到總資產的 55%。此外，2023 年股利覆蓋率也升至 146%，增強了股利的狀態和持久性。

Furthermore, our credit ratings were reaffirmed by all three rating agencies during the year with two agencies continuing to rate ladder, just one notch below investment grade in the face of significant market disruption. The Company's actions have notably strengthened our financial position as evidenced by these positive trends as we enter 2024, our efforts have left us well positioned to quickly pivot to offense. Our originators continue to explore the market for new investments. In an environment we anticipate will offer compelling opportunities for well-capitalized lenders like latter particularly given the pullback by the middle market banks.

此外，我們的信用評級在這一年中得到了所有三個評級機構的重申，其中兩個評級機構繼續進行階梯評級，在市場嚴重混亂的情況下，僅比投資級別低一級。進入 2024 年，這些積極的趨勢證明了公司的行動顯著增強了我們的財務狀況，我們的努力使我們處於有利地位，可以迅速轉向進攻。我們的發起人繼續探索新投資市場。我們預計，在這樣的環境下，將為資本充足的貸方（例如後者）提供誘人的機會，特別是考慮到中間市場銀行的退出。

Regarding our loan portfolio, we received to $727 million in repayments, reducing the portfolio balance by 19% from the start of the year. This amount includes the full payoff of 35 loans and approximately $100 million in proceeds from the repayment of office loans. Subsequent to year end, we received an additional $70 million in proceeds from the payoff of four unencumbered loans, including one office loan.

關於我們的貸款組合，我們收到了 7.27 億美元的還款，使投資組合餘額較年初減少了 19%。該金額包括 35 筆貸款的全額還清以及辦公室貸款償還收益約 1 億美元。年底後，我們從四筆未支配貸款（包括一筆辦公室貸款）的清償中獲得了額外的 7,000 萬美元收益。

We attributed our robust payoff to our strategy of originating smaller loans in the middle market. This approach as far as access to a broader range of capital sources repayment, whether through refinancing or asset sales, our balance sheet loan portfolio stands at $3.1 billion at this as of December 31, with a weighted average yield of 9.65% and an average loan size of $27 million.

我們將強勁的回報歸功於我們在中間市場發放小額貸款的策略。透過這種方式獲得更廣泛的資金來源還款，無論是透過再融資或資產出售，截至 12 月 31 日，我們的資產負債表貸款組合為 31 億美元，加權平均收益率為 9.65%，平均貸款規模為2700萬美元。

We have limited future funding commitments totaling only $204 million with approximately two thirds of that amount contingent upon a favorable leasing activity or other positive developments at the underlying properties. In the fourth quarter, we successfully concluded foreclosure proceedings. Resolving two loans on nonaccrual. This include a $23 million loan on a retail property on the Upper West Side of Manhattan, which had been on non-accrual since the second quarter of 2018 and a $35 million loan on a newly constructed multifamily in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania discussed on our third quarter earnings call.

我們未來的融資承諾有限，總額僅 2.04 億美元，其中約三分之二取決於有利的租賃活動或相關物業的其他積極發展。第四季度，我們成功結束了止贖程序。解決兩筆非應計貸款。其中包括曼哈頓上西區一處零售物業的 2300 萬美元貸款，該貸款自 2018 年第二季度以來一直為非應計利息，以及我們第三季度討論的賓夕法尼亞州匹茲堡新建多戶住宅的 3500 萬美元貸款財報電話會議。

Actually, in the fourth quarter, we placed one $15 million loan on nonaccrual status. The loan is collateralized by a newly renovated multifamily portfolio in Los Angeles, California and we anticipate taking title to the asset during the first half of 2024. As Paul discussed, we did not identify any specific impairments during the quarter and increased our General CECL Reserve to align with our assessment of current market conditions heading into 2024, we expect to pivot to offense while continuing to actively monitor our loan portfolio. Despite the liquidity pullback from regional banks impacting our market. We believe that the long-term advantages for non-bank CRE lenders like ladder stemming from reduced competition for lending in our space outweigh any short-term obstacles. In the meantime, we're continuing to work with our well-capitalized sponsors who, in most cases we've seen investing new capital into their assets, expecting more palatable interest rate environment later this year. That said, as we have consistently demonstrated, even during the challenges posed by COVID, we make a clear distinction between the default and a loss of a well-capitalized and experienced real estate owner, we possess the capacity to proficiently own and manage the underlying real estate. Our ongoing objective will be to maximize our value at our conservative loan basis, particularly as we navigate the upcoming quarters with the current HIGHER for now interest rate environment.

實際上，在第四季度，我們以非應計狀態發放了一筆 1500 萬美元的貸款。該貸款由位於加州洛杉磯的一個新裝修的多戶住宅投資組合作為抵押，我們預計將在 2024 年上半年取得該資產的所有權。正如Paul 所討論的，我們在本季度沒有發現任何具體減值，並增加了我們的一般CECL 儲備金，以符合我們對2024 年當前市場狀況的評估，我們預計將轉向進攻，同時繼續積極監控我們的貸款組合。儘管地區銀行的流動性縮減影響了我們的市場。我們認為，對於非銀行商業房地產貸款人來說，由於我們領域貸款競爭減少而帶來的階梯等長期優勢超過了任何短期障礙。同時，我們將繼續與資本充足的贊助商合作，在大多數情況下，我們已經看到他們將新資本投資到他們的資產中，預計今年稍後會有更令人滿意的利率環境。也就是說，正如我們一貫所證明的那樣，即使在新冠疫情帶來的挑戰中，我們也能清楚地區分違約和失去資本充足、經驗豐富的房地產所有者，我們有能力熟練地擁有和管理基礎資產房地產。我們持續的目標是在保守的貸款基礎上實現價值最大化，特別是在我們在當前較高的利率環境下應對未來幾季的情況下。

Turning to our securities and real estate portfolio. Over the course of 2023, we received $196 million in paydowns in our securities portfolio and acquired over $88 million of new positions ending the year with the $486 million portfolio comprised primarily of triple-A securities, earning an unlevered yield of 6.82%. Our $947 million real estate portfolio, mainly comprised of net lease properties with long-term leases to investment-grade tenants contributed $50 million in net rental income in the fourth quarter and $59 million in 2023.

轉向我們的證券和房地產投資組合。2023 年，我們的證券投資組合收到了 1.96 億美元的付款，並在年底獲得了超過 8,800 萬美元的新頭寸，其中 4.86 億美元的投資組合主要由 AAA 證券組成，無槓桿收益率為 6.82%。我們 9.47 億美元的房地產投資組合主要包括向投資等級租戶長期租賃的淨租賃物業，在第四季度貢獻了 5,000 萬美元的淨租金收入，在 2023 年貢獻了 5,900 萬美元的淨租金收入。

In summary, we entered 2024 with a strong balance sheet, substantial dry powder, modest leverage and a well-covered dividend. As the commercial real estate market continues to reset. We remain focused on optimizing the credit of our existing loan book, and we are well positioned to deploy our capital for the right opportunities that we believe will present themselves as transaction activity rebounds with that, I'll turn the call over to Paul Baker Bell.

總而言之，我們進入 2024 年時擁有強勁的資產負債表、充足的乾粉、適度的槓桿率和良好的股息支付。隨著商業地產市場的不斷重置。我們仍然專注於優化現有貸款帳簿的信用，並且我們已做好充分準備，可以將我們的資本部署到我們相信隨著交易活動反彈而出現的正確機會上，我會將電話轉給 Paul Baker Bell 。

As discussed in the fourth quarter of 2023, platter generated distributable earnings of $40 million or $0.32 of distributable earnings per share. And for the full year in 2023, Ladder generated $167.7 million of distributable earnings or $1.34 of distributable earnings per share. A return on equity of 10.9% for 2023.

正如 2023 年第四季所討論的，Platter 產生了 4,000 萬美元的可分配收益，即每股可分配收益 0.32 美元。2023 年全年，Ladder 產生 1.677 億美元的可分配收益，即每股可分配收益 1.34 美元。2023 年股本報酬率為 10.9%。

Our strong earnings in 2023 were driven by robust net interest income and steady net operating income from our real estate portfolio and benefited from our primarily fixed rate liability structure of balance sheet loan book continued to receive a healthy rate of paydowns in the fourth quarter, which totaled $167 million.

我們2023 年的強勁盈利得益於房地產投資組合強勁的淨利息收入和穩定的淨營業收入，並受益於我們的資產負債表貸款賬簿的主要固定利率負債結構在第四季度繼續獲得健康的還款率，這總計1.67億美元。

This was partially offset by $11 million of fundings on existing commitments. The portfolio totaled $3.1 billion as of year end across 116 loans and represented 56% of our total assets. As previously mentioned, in the fourth quarter of 2023, we completed the foreclosure proceedings on two nonaccrual loans totaling $58 million.

這被現有承諾的 1100 萬美元資金部分抵消。截至年底，該投資組合涉及 116 筆貸款，總額達 31 億美元，占我們總資產的 56%。如前所述，2023 年第四季度，我們完成了兩筆總計 5,800 萬美元的非應計貸款的止贖程序。

Overall, in 2023, we added three REO assets and sold one $44 million hotel asset previously foreclosed on, which produced an $800,000 gain for distributable earnings, demonstrating our ability to maximize value on assets where we proceed with foreclosure.

總體而言，2023 年，我們增加了三項REO 資產，並出售了一項先前被取消抵押品贖回權的價值4,400 萬美元的酒店資產，這為可分配收益帶來了80 萬美元的收益，這表明我們有能力在取消抵押品贖回權的情況下實現資產價值最大化。

In the fourth quarter, we increased our CECL reserve by $6 million, bringing our general reserve to $43 million or an approximate 137 basis points of our loan portfolio. The increase was driven by the current macro view of the state of the US commercial real estate market and overall global macroeconomic conditions. We continue to believe the credit quality of our loan portfolio benefits from the diversity and collateral geography as well as granularity, given our small average loan size, which was demonstrated by the $727 million in proceeds received from paydowns in 2023, including the full payoff of 35 loans.

第四季度，我們將 CECL 準備金增加了 600 萬美元，使我們的一般準備金達到 4,300 萬美元，相當於貸款組合的約 137 個基點。這一增長是由當前美國商業房地產市場狀況和全球整體宏觀經濟狀況的宏觀觀點所推動的。我們仍然相信，鑑於我們的平均貸款規模較小，我們的貸款組合的信貸品質受益於多樣性、抵押品地理位置以及粒度，這一點從2023 年還款中收到的7.27 億美元收益就可見一斑，其中包括全額還款35 筆貸款。

Our $947 million real estate segment continues to perform well, providing a stable source of net operating income to earnings. The portfolio includes 156 net lease properties, representing approximately 70% of the segment.

我們 9.47 億美元的房地產部門繼續表現良好，為盈利提供了穩定的淨營業收入來源。該投資組合包括 156 個淨租賃物業，約佔該細分市場的 70%。

Our net lease tenants are strong credits, primarily investment grade rated and committed to long-term leases with an average remaining lease lease term of nine years. As of December 31, the carrying value of our securities portfolio was $486 million. 99% of the portfolio was investment grade rated with 86% being triple-A rated. Over 71% of the portfolio was unencumbered as of year end and readily financeable providing an additional source of potential liquidity, complementing the $1.3 billion of same day liquidity we had as of year end. Ladder same-day liquidity simply represents unrestricted cash and cash equivalents of over $1 billion, plus our undrawn unsecured corporate revolver capacity of $324 million.

我們的淨租賃租戶信用良好，主要是投資等級評級，並致力於長期租賃，平均剩餘租賃期限為九年。截至 12 月 31 日，我們的證券投資組合的帳面價值為 4.86 億美元。 99% 的投資組合獲得投資等級評級，其中 86% 獲得 3A 級評級。截至年底，超過 71% 的投資組合沒有任何負擔，並且易於融資，提供了額外的潛在流動性來源，補充了我們截至年底擁有的 13 億美元當日流動性。階梯式當日流動性僅代表超過 10 億美元的不受限制的現金和現金等價物，加上我們 3.24 億美元的未提取無擔保企業循環資金能力。

It's worth noting in January 2024, we extended our corporate revolver with our nine bank syndicate to a new five-year term out to 2029 facility carries an attractive interest rate of silver plus 250 basis points on an unsecured basis, with further reductions upon achievement of investment grade ratings enhancement demonstrate the strength of our capital structure as well as well as a lot of strong relationships with these financials questions. As of December 31st, 2023, our adjusted leverage ratio was 1.6 times, which was down year over year as we delever our balance sheet while producing steady earnings, strong dividend coverage and an attractive double-digit return on equity.

值得注意的是，2024 年1 月，我們將與九家銀行銀團的企業左輪融資期限延長至新的五年期，直至2029 年，在無擔保基礎上提供有吸引力的白銀利率加250 個基點，並在實現投資等級評級的提升證明了我們資本結構的實力以及與這些財務問題的密切關係。截至2023 年12 月31 日，我們的調整後槓桿率為1.6 倍，隨著我們去槓桿化資產負債表，同時產生穩定的收益、強勁的股息覆蓋率和有吸引力的兩位數股本回報率，此槓桿率較去年同期下降。

Unsecured corporate bonds remain the foundation to our capital structure with $1.6 billion outstanding or 41% of our debt with a weighted average maturity of nearly four years and an attractive fixed rate coupon of 4.7%.

無擔保公司債仍是我們資本結構的基礎，未償還債務為 16 億美元，占我們債務的 41%，加權平均期限為近四年，固定利率為 4.7%，頗具吸引力。

We'll also note in 2023, we repurchased $68 million in principal of our unsecured bonds at 83.5% of par, generating $10.7 million of gains. As of December 31, our unencumbered asset pool stood at $3 billion or 55% of our balance sheet. 81% of this unencumbered asset pool is comprised of first mortgage loans, securities and unrestricted cash and cash equivalent. We believe our liquidity position and large pool of high-quality unencumbered assets provided ladder with strong financial flexibility in 2023 and continues to do so as we enter 2024 and as Amit discussed is reflected in our corporate credit rating one notch from investment grade from two or three rating agencies with all three rating agencies reaffirming our credit rating 2023.

我們還將注意到，到 2023 年，我們以面額 83.5% 的價格回購了本金 6,800 萬美元的無擔保債券，產生了 1,070 萬美元的收益。截至 12 月 31 日，我們的未支配資產池為 30 億美元，佔資產負債表的 55%。該未支配資產池的 81% 由第一抵押貸款、證券以及不受限制的現金和現金等價物組成。我們相信，我們的流動性部位和大量優質未支配資產為2023 年提供了強大的財務靈活性，並且在我們進入2024 年時將繼續這樣做，正如阿米特所討論的那樣，這反映在我們的企業信用評等從投資等級從2 級或2 級提高了1 級。三個評等機構，所有三個評等機構都重申我們的 2023 年信用評等。

In 2023, we also repurchased 2.5 million of our common stock at a weighted average price of $9.22 per share and our current share buyback authorization of $50 million, That's $44 million of remaining capacity as of December 31, 2023. Flatters undepreciated book value per share was $13.79 as of December 31, 2023, with 126.9 million shares outstanding.

2023 年，我們也以每股 9.22 美元的加權平均價格回購了 250 萬股普通股，目前的股票回購授權為 5,000 萬美元，即截至 2023 年 12 月 31 日的剩餘產能為 4,400 萬美元。截至 2023 年 12 月 31 日，Flatters 每股未折舊帳面價值為 13.79 美元，已發行股數為 1.269 億股。

Finally, as Tom will discuss, our dividend is well covered. And in the fourth quarter, Ladder declared a $0.23 per share dividend, which was paid on January 16, 2024. For more details on our fourth quarter and full year 2023 operating results, please refer to our earnings supplement, which is available on our website as well as our annual report on Form 10-K, which we expect to file in the coming days.

最後，正如湯姆將討論的那樣，我們的股息得到了很好的支付。第四季度，Ladder 宣布每股股息 0.23 美元，並於 2024 年 1 月 16 日支付。有關我們第四季度和 2023 年全年經營業績的更多詳細信息，請參閱我們網站上的收益補充資料以及我們預計在未來幾天提交的 10-K 表格年度報告。

With that, I will turn the call over to Bryan.

這樣，我會將電話轉給布萊恩。

Thanks, Paul. We were happy when 2023 came to an end and also very pleased with our financial results.

謝謝，保羅。2023 年結束時我們很高興，對我們的財務表現也非常滿意。

From start to finish, I'd credit our success to having gotten our company ready for turbulent markets in the years leading up to 2023. I tend to highlight our differentiated liability structure with a large component of fixed rate debt when explaining why things went well at Ladder during the year. But in truth, it's more complicated than that.

自始至終，我將我們的成功歸功於我們公司為 2023 年之前的幾年動蕩的市場做好了準備。在解釋為什麼 Ladder 今年進展順利時，我傾向於強調我們差異化的負債結構，其中很大一部分是固定利率債務。但事實上，情況比這更複雜。

Over 10 years ago, we decided to finance our business with a greater concentration of corporate unsecured fixed rate debt foregoing that the typical mortgage rate model of using repo lines to level returns, even though floating rate repo finance was cheaper at the time when we issued the bonds, we realized after what happens to the U.S. banking system and 27 and 28, that there would be fewer banks, larger banks and more highly regulated banks. So we felt the usual bank financing models in use might need some shoring up as they were becoming more and more problematic in an increasingly more volatile world with less cushion against market shocks.

十多年前，我們決定透過更集中的企業無擔保固定利率債務來為我們的業務融資，而不是使用回購額度來平衡回報的典型抵押貸款利率模型，儘管浮動利率回購融資在我們發行時更便宜就債券而言，在美國銀行體係以及27日和28日發生的事情之後，我們意識到銀行將會更少，銀行規模更大，監管更加嚴格。因此，我們認為，通常使用的銀行融資模式可能需要一些支撐，因為它們在日益動盪的世界中變得越來越有問題，對市場衝擊的緩衝能力越來越弱。

While we never saw the pandemic coming or the enormous global central bank intervention that took place in response to it. These items only serve to cement our case to manage our Company with safer debt, even if it came at a higher cost using less leverage, just as we had indicated, we would do when we founded ladder in the fall of 28, we stay true to that model. And while it was helpful that we've got the timing and direction of the Fed hiking cycle, correct, our constant vigilance around avoiding credit mistakes has really been the linchpin to our success. While not perfect. By any means, we believe we were better than most in our approach towards lending over the last three years, although we're not without some headaches in these difficult times. Our disciplined approach in keeping our exposures and assets at a reasonable basis has served us well once again as it has for the better part of our lengthy careers in March of last year after a few banks fell largely due to a basic lack of understanding about duration on the part of bank CDOs and regulators. The funding model for regional banks in the U.S. changed these changes may very well be permanent.

儘管我們從未見過這種流行病的到來，也沒有看到全球央行為應對這場流行病而採取的大規模幹預措施。這些項目只是為了鞏固我們以更安全的債務來管理我們公司的理由，即使使用更少的槓桿會帶來更高的成本，正如我們所表明的，我們在28 年秋天創立梯子時會這樣做，我們保持真實到那個模型。雖然我們了解聯準會升息週期的時機和方向很有幫助，但我們對避免信貸錯誤的持續警覺確實是我們成功的關鍵。雖然並不完美。無論如何，我們相信過去三年我們在貸款方面比大多數人都要好，儘管在這些困難時期我們並非沒有遇到一些麻煩。我們將風險敞口和資產保持在合理基礎上的嚴格方法再次為我們帶來了良好的效果，去年3 月份，幾家銀行的下跌主要是由於對久期缺乏了解而導致的，這在我們漫長的職業生涯的大部分時間都是如此。銀行 CDO 和監管機構方面。美國地區銀行的融資模式發生了變化，這些變化很可能是永久性的。

If banks don't compensate savers with appropriate interest rates on deposits, we now see how easily savers can and will move their savings where their capital is treated better at Ladder, we own over $1 billion of T-bills center and approximately 5.4% and mature in less than 90 days. This is not as a result of any plan we have, but rather a luxury we enjoy because we issued about $1.3 billion of fixed rate unsecured bonds with an average rate of just 4.5% with a remaining average maturity of about four years.

如果銀行不以適當的存款利率補償儲戶，我們現在看到儲戶可以並且願意將他們的儲蓄轉移到他們的資本在階梯上得到更好對待的地方，我們擁有超過10 億美元的國庫券中心和大約5.4 % 的股份不到90天即可成熟。這並不是我們任何計劃的結果，而是我們享受的一種奢侈，因為我們發行了約 13 億美元的固定利率無擔保債券，平均利率僅為 4.5%，剩餘平均期限約為四年。

We now have a rather barbell asset base of T-bills at 5.4% and a loan portfolio that earns an unlevered return of approximately 9.7%. This combination allows us to cover our quarterly cash dividend using only modest leverage during these precarious times in commercial real estate. While the deficit at the U.S. Treasury is spiraling out of control, our fortress-like balance sheet allows us to turn our attention to getting through the current downturn in commercial real estate values in the aftermath of soaring interest rates and with a banking system with little appetite to finance new commercial real estate loans. We've navigated this environment with considerable success so far.

我們現在擁有 5.4% 的國債資產基礎，以及可賺取約 9.7% 的無槓桿回報的貸款組合。這種組合使我們能夠在商業房地產的不穩定時期僅使用適度的槓桿來支付季度現金股利。儘管美國財政部的赤字正在失控，但我們堡壘般的資產負債表使我們能夠將注意力轉向應對當前利率飆升後商業房地產價值的低迷，而銀行體系幾乎沒有什麼為新的商業房地產貸款融資的興趣。到目前為止，我們已經在這種環境中取得了相當大的成功。

In 2023, as mentioned earlier, we received $727 million in proceeds from paydowns on balance sheet loans, which did include the full payoff of 35 loans. We also received $196.1 million of principal paydowns and payoffs in our CMBS and CLO securities portfolio, further increasing our liquidity as a result of our low leverage business model because of our high level of liquidity, we are able to work with our sponsors on loans that are having difficulty refinancing. However, if we share this benefit with those borrowers, the borrowers to must pitch in with additional capital to keep the asset in their control. We've been fortunate so far, having modified some large loans after substantial new equity was posted to create more time to resolve stress from higher rates.

如前所述，2023 年，我們收到了 7.27 億美元的資產負債表貸款還款收益，其中包括 35 筆貸款的全額還款。我們還在CMBS 和CLO 證券投資組合中收到了1.961 億美元的本金償還和償還，由於我們的低槓桿業務模式，進一步增加了我們的流動性，因為我們的流動性水平很高，我們能夠與贊助商合作提供以下貸款：再融資遇到困難。然而，如果我們與這些借款人分享這項利益，借款人就必須投入額外的資本，以保持資產在他們的控制之下。到目前為止，我們很幸運，在大量新股本發行後修改了一些大額貸款，以創造更多時間來解決利率上升帶來的壓力。

In 2023, we received $119 million of an additional equity from our borrowers on 56 loans. We have also received additional credit enhancement in the form of well-heeled sponsors, providing full recourse on some of our larger loans outstanding in our equity portfolio. Our largest office property is triple net leased for another eight years with decades worth of extensions available to the tenants who happens to be one of the largest banks in the United States.

2023 年，我們從 56 筆貸款的借款人那裡獲得了 1.19 億美元的額外股本。我們還以富有的贊助商的形式獲得了額外的信用增強，為我們股票投資組合中一些較大的未償貸款提供了充分的追索權。我們最大的辦公物業以三重淨租期再租八年，並向恰巧是美國最大銀行之一的租戶提供數十年的延期。

In this case, the tenant is currently putting the finishing touches on buildings that we own that they rent at a tenant containing costs between $250 million and $300 million, including construction of a new 1,400 space parking deck. So they can concentrate even more employees into these buildings were just not worried about that one.

在這種情況下，租戶目前正在對我們擁有的建築物進行收尾工作，他們向租戶出租該建築物，成本在 2.5 億至 3 億美元之間，包括建造一個新的 1,400 個停車位。這樣他們就可以將更多的員工集中到這些建築物中，而不必擔心這一點。

I'll wrap things up here by thanking our employees who worked so hard last year in a daily environment of falling asset prices. We reported distributable earnings of $168 million in a year where our asset base that's smaller every quarter, yet we continued to produce double digit ROEs while holding substantial levels of cash, we feel the Fed is at least done raising rates for the time being if they do begin to lower rates, this will come as welcome relief to property owners with less competition for lending assignments from regional banks. Private credit is indeed moving and to take part in this vast addressable opportunity. And we have every intention of taking advantage of our already strong position in mortgage lending and plan to deploy our large cash holdings into something more interesting than T-bills. Thanks for listening.

最後，我要感謝去年在資產價格不斷下跌的環境下辛勤工作的員工。我們報告的一年內可分配收益為1.68 億美元，我們的資產基礎每季都在縮小，但我們在持有大量現金的同時繼續產生兩位數的股本回報率，我們認為聯準會至少暫時不再加息，如果他們如果確實開始降低利率，這對業主來說將是一種受歡迎的緩解，因為地區銀行對貸款任務的競爭減少了。私人信貸確實正在積極參與並參與這一巨大的機會。我們完全有意利用我們在抵押貸款領域業已強大的地位，並計劃將我們持有的大量現金投入到比國庫券更有趣的領域。感謝收聽。

And operator, we can open the line for some questions now.

接線員，我們現在可以撥打電話詢問一些問題。

Thank you. We will now be conducting a question-and-answer session. (Operator Instructions) Sarah Barcomb, BTIG.

謝謝。我們現在將進行問答環節。（操作員說明）Sarah Barcomb，BTIG。

Hey, good morning, everyone. Thanks for taking the question on. So you mentioned in the prepared remarks that you're positioned to quickly pivot to offense, and there's a vast opportunity for private credit here. And so should we expect ladder to start originating new loans as soon as this quarter? And are you waiting for the Fed to start cutting rates on?

嘿，大家早安。感謝您提出問題。所以你在準備好的發言中提到，你的定位是快速轉向進攻，而且這裡有巨大的私人信貸機會。那麼我們是否應該期望階梯最早在本季開始發放新貸款？您是否在等待聯準會開始降息？

I'm just looking for more detail on, you know what and when what allows you to be more constructive and start putting that large cash balance to work. Thank you.

我只是在尋找更多細節，你知道什麼以及什麼時候什麼可以讓你更有建設性並開始將巨額現金餘額投入使用。謝謝。

Thanks, Sara. Yes, we you should expect us to start originating loans this quarter. And in full transparency, we've actually been quoting loans through the fourth quarter. Also, admittedly, though we have not been overly successful in getting application signed. Interestingly, because of them, oftentimes, we are losing on the loan opportunity to either an insurance company at lower rates and lower proceeds because the borrower has decided they prefer the lower rate R.L. So we've been getting be buying names of companies that we've never heard of. And so that will get further evidence that the private markets are in fact pushing capital into the space. But I would expect that not to last, we are quoting conduit loans. We're quoting bridge loans. We prefer acquisitions to refinances for obvious reasons, but on and that probably limits the OCR, the amount of opportunities because most of what's in the market right now is refi. But as acquisitions pick up, I think you can expect us to be more active. And there is no it's a deliberate plan on our part to be hoarding capital at this point. However, sitting with a $540 T-bill rate and able to buy securities in the CLO and CMBS world at attractive levels. We've been adding there mostly on the security side. In fact, while we've been on this path we bought 10 million. But I think we'll probably continue to buy more of those than we will make loans, but we are indeed quoting loans on a daily basis.

謝謝，薩拉。是的，我們應該預期我們將在本季開始發放貸款。完全透明的是，我們實際上一直在第四季度引用貸款。另外，不可否認的是，儘管我們在簽署申請方面並沒有非常成功。有趣的是，因為他們，我們常常失去以較低利率和較低收益向保險公司提供貸款的機會，因為借款人決定他們更喜歡較低的利率R.L。因此，我們一直在購買我們所推薦的公司名稱。從來沒聽過。因此，這將得到進一步的證據，證明私人市場實際上正在將資本推向該領域。但我預計這種情況不會持續太久，我們正在引用管道貸款。我們引用過橋貸款。出於顯而易見的原因，我們更喜歡收購而不是再融資，但這可能會限制 OCR，即機會的數量，因為目前市場上的大部分都是再融資。但隨著收購的增加，我認為我們會更加積極。目前我們並沒有刻意囤積資本。然而，國庫券利率為 540 美元，能夠以有吸引力的水平購買 CLO 和 CMBS 領域的證券。我們主要在安全方面進行了添加。事實上，當我們走這條路時，我們買了 1000 萬美元。但我認為我們可能會繼續購買比發放貸款更多的貸款，但我們確實每天都會引用貸款。

Okay, great. Thanks, and I appreciate the comments on the competitive set there, too. That's interesting. Maybe just going back to the in-place portfolio for my follow up on just because the specific seat sold remains pretty low relative to peers and we don't have risk rankings on a loan level here, I was just hoping whether you do think there's certain aspects of your portfolio that could maybe start to become a bigger concern if rates remain elevated throughout the course of the year and also longer. So maybe you could comment on the performance of your 2021 and 2022 vintage multifamily assets on those kind of asked about me, could could we start to see what he's coming back there? Appreciate any commentary. Thank you?

好的，太好了。謝謝，我也很欣賞對那裡的競爭環境的評論。那很有意思。也許只是回到現有的投資組合進行跟進，因為與同行相比，所售的特定席位仍然相當低，而且我們這裡沒有貸款水平的風險排名，我只是希望您是否認為有如果利率在一年中甚至更長時間內保持高位，您投資組合的某些方面可能會開始成為更大的問題。因此，也許您可以針對有關我的問題對 2021 年和 2022 年老式多戶型資產的表現發表評論，我們可以開始看看他會回來做什麼嗎？感謝任何評論。謝謝你？

Sure we are at the late 21 is really the what I would call the dangerous spot for multi-families because cap rates were quite low and leverage was quite high available in markets. I think we're going to continue to see some stress in the system through the first half of this year. And when I say in the system, I don't mean that latter necessarily. But generally, I don't believe we're quite through this, but we feel like we're getting near the tree line here as we exit the forest. And so I would anticipate some if I actually think rates are going to go down a little bit here from what we've been hearing and cap rates have gone down for sure, because of the forward nature of purchasing caps. So what we have right now is a deterioration in the equity ROEs and not necessarily blowing up the debt column yet or taking losses over there. So as long as rates stay here or go lower, I'm pretty optimistic if for some reason, rates start going higher. And I think the events of the New York Community Bank this week is a reminder to all of us that that could possibly happen some. I do think we've got another six months slog. I don't necessarily get overly concerned about where we stand relative to other people in our CECL reserves because we have focused on small loans. And and when I say small, not terribly small, about $20 million, $25 million as opposed to $200 million to $300 million, which are extraordinarily difficult to finance today.

當然，我們現在所處的 21 世紀末確實是我所說的多戶家庭的危險點，因為資本化率相當低，而且市場上的槓桿率相當高。我認為今年上半年我們將繼續看到系統面臨一些壓力。當我說在系統中時，我並不一定指後者。但總的來說，我不認為我們已經完全度過了這一切，但當我們離開森林時，我們感覺我們已經接近這裡的林木線了。因此，如果我真的認為利率會比我們所聽到的有所下降，並且由於購買上限的遠期性質，上限利率肯定會下降，那麼我會預期一些。因此，我們現在面臨的是股本淨資產收益率的惡化，但不一定會導致債務欄大幅增加或損失。因此，只要利率保持在這個水平或更低，如果由於某種原因利率開始走高，我就非常樂觀。我認為本週紐約社區銀行發生的事件提醒我們所有人，這種情況可能會發生。我確實認為我們還需要六個月的努力。我不一定會過度擔心我們在 CECL 儲備中相對於其他人的地位，因為我們專注於小額貸款。當我說小，不是非常小時，大約是 2000 萬美元、2500 萬美元，而不是 2 億至 3 億美元，後者在今天融資極其困難。

So while we might have some uncertainties about the outcomes of what's come, what's on our books right now. I can only reflect back on the last 12 months, which certainly was no picnic in the markets and we got 35 payoffs. And since January 1, we've got another $70 million in payoffs.

因此，雖然我們可能對即將發生的事情的結果有一些不確定性，但我們現在的帳本上有什麼。我只能回顧過去 12 個月，這在市場上確實不是什麼輕鬆的事，我們獲得了 35 筆回報。自 1 月 1 日起，我們又收到了 7000 萬美元的付款。

So those are the indisputable parts of the conversation around smaller loans and diversification. And we're pretty optimistic, although we certainly do have some stress points in the system that that could go either way so far, they've been going the right way. However, to the extent that we expect carrying costs of these assets continues to stay high at some point, you do wonder, does the sponsor simply run out of money.

因此，這些是圍繞小額貸款和多元化的討論中無可爭議的部分。我們非常樂觀，儘管系統中確實存在一些壓力點，到目前為止，它們可能會走向任何方向，但它們一直在走正確的道路。然而，如果我們預計這些資產的持有成本在某個時候繼續保持在高位，你確實想知道贊助商是否只是耗盡了資金。

And so far, I think the sponsors who have ability to hang on are hanging on. However, if it got materially worse or if they simply exhausted their equity availability and then yes, we might see some properties come across the transom.

到目前為止，我認為有能力堅持下去的贊助商都在堅持下去。然而，如果情況變得更糟，或者他們只是耗盡了可用的股權，那麼是的，我們可能會看到一些房產出現橫樑。

Stephen Laws, Raymond James.

史蒂芬勞斯，雷蒙德詹姆斯。

Good morning. I wanted to follow up on Sarah's question. You know, can you talk about the relative returns you're seeing in new loan originations versus securities, some did you buy any securities out of them at one sale a week or two ago? Or kind of what type of securities do you find most attractive? And I think, Brian, you mentioned you just bought some modest morning to Frank.

早安.我想跟進莎拉的問題。您知道嗎，您能談談您在新貸款發放中看到的相對回報與證券的相對回報嗎？您是否在一兩週前的一次銷售中從其中購買了一些證券？或者您認為哪種類型的證券最有吸引力？我想，布萊恩，你提到你剛剛給弗蘭克買了一些樸素的早晨。

We have been primarily focused on either transactions that we've owned for a while that we kind of liken we're adding to it or but then more importantly, I think where we are seeing now a lack of discrimination in pricing between static deals where you know, every loan in the pool and manage deals where depending on how much time you might not know any of the loans in the pool for. So we have been focusing on the static end of things and as I said, we bought something this morning that was 2021 deal and it is static and we know all the loans in the pools, they're performing fine.

我們主要關注我們已經擁有一段時間的交易，我們有點像我們正在添加它，或者但更重要的是，我認為我們現在看到靜態交易之間的定價缺乏歧視，其中您知道，池中的每筆貸款和管理交易都取決於您可能不知道池中任何貸款的時間。因此，我們一直在關注事物的靜態端，正如我所說，我們今天早上買了一些 2021 年交易的東西，它是靜態的，我們知道池中的所有貸款，它們都表現良好。

So those returns, I can't speak to the new issue market because I think that I mean, I could speculate as to what it is, but we didn't buy those bonds. So I don't know on, but the assets we are acquiring in the security business on the static side are yielding high 10s, low 20s if we lever them. However, given the cash pile that we've done, we haven't even been levering those. So you'll notice that a good part of our own interest expense has, as you have disappeared, the secured debt that we carry has gone down because we're just paying off repo, which is quite expensive and we're paying -- we're not using leverage unless we need to.

因此，這些回報，我不能談論新發行市場，因為我認為我的意思是，我可以推測它是什麼，但我們沒有購買這些債券。所以我不知道，但我們在靜態安全業務中收購的資產如果我們槓桿化的話，其收益將達到 10 多，20 多。然而，考慮到我們已經擁有的現金儲備，我們甚至還沒有利用這些資金。所以你會注意到，隨著你的消失，我們自己的利息支出的很大一部分已經減少，我們所承擔的擔保債務已經減少，因為我們剛剛還清回購協議，這是相當昂貴的，我們正在付款－除非需要，否則我們不會使用槓桿。

Yes. And then to touch on whether we talk about the one-three of liquidity or the $1 billion of cash, what is when you think of normal operating environment and how much cash liquidity would you would you hold or past another way, how much of your liquidity do you expect to deploy on? What's the incremental earnings power? When you think about all of that, once that money is deployed.

是的。然後談談我們是否談論流動性的三分之一或10億美元的現金，當你想到正常的經營環境時，你會持有多少現金流動性或通過其他方式，您的多少現金流動性您希望部署流動性嗎？增量獲利能力有多大？當你考慮所有這些時，一旦資金被部署。

I think it's powerful. And I think under normal circumstances, which I wonder if we'll ever see them again going back, I think to 20 end of 19 is the last time I can imagine that I could say that was when we were in normal times but up, you know, in normal times if you if we can go that far, I would say we would carry about $50 million to $100 million in cash. And as long as we've got the revolver, which as Paul mentioned, we've extended for another five years with all of our lenders. That's plenty of day-to-day liquidity. So we could, in theory, depart with $1.2 billion in cash. If you run that leverage at even one-to-one, that's $2.4 billion in assets. If you ran it to three-to-one, it's $3.5 billion in assets with all assets unlevered yielding 6%, 7%. So as powerful earnings power.

我認為它很強大。我認為在正常情況下，我想知道我們是否會再次看到他們回去，我認為到 19 年底 20 日是我能想像的最後一次，我可以說那是我們處於正常時期但上升的時候，你知道，在正常情況下，如果我們能做到這一點，我想說我們將攜帶大約5000 萬至1 億美元的現金。正如保羅所提到的，只要我們拿到了左輪手槍，我們就可以與所有貸款人再延長五年的期限。這是充足的日常流動性。因此，理論上我們可以帶著 12 億美元現金離開。如果您以一對一的槓桿運行，那麼資產就達到 24 億美元。若以三比一計算，資產為 35 億美元，所有無槓桿資產的收益率為 6%、7%。如此強大的盈利能力。

Seems like a lot of upside there. And then pretty conservative on the dividend from a payout standpoint, thoughts around that. Is that something that will need to move up given re-taxable income as this money is deployed? Or how do you look at your dividend level?

看起來有很多好處。然後從派息的角度來看，股利相當保守，對此的想法。考慮到這筆錢的使用，應重新納稅是否需要提高？或者你如何看待你的股利水準？

We will look for where we think the next move will be up rather than down. However, I don't want to forecast first of all, we wouldn't forecast the dividend policy here on a call, but some we were not planning that right now, nor do we feel that we are pressed to do that for any regulatory reasons around read accounting. The main reason being we think capital is important right now. And we do think capital availability allows us to do a lot of things that will exceed our dividend. And so as a result of that, we think this is the kind of market where investors would want us to hold onto cash that we can invest at higher yields and and drives the dividend later as opposed to now.

我們將尋找我們認為下一步會上漲而不是下跌的地方。然而，我首先不想預測，我們不會在電話會議上預測股利政策，但有些我們現在沒有計劃，我們也不覺得我們有壓力這樣做，因為任何監管閱讀會計的原因。主要原因是我們認為資本現在很重要。我們確實認為，可用的資本使我們能夠做很多超出股息的事情。因此，我們認為在這種市場中，投資者希望我們持有現金，我們可以以更高的收益率進行投資，並在以後而不是現在推動股息。

Yes, I think for the most part in the space, the discussions around dividends are about who's cutting them, not who's raising them and them, yes, but we're pretty comfortable. We like having a lot of cash. We are hopeful that we can even issue another bond deal before the end of the first half. And if we do then we'll have an extraordinary amount of liquidity, in which case we'll probably be forced to lower our returns a little bit. But right now we're being very, very cautious and very discerning on what investments we will. And won't make.

是的，我認為在這個領域的大部分時間裡，圍繞股息的討論都是關於誰在削減股息，而不是誰在提高股息以及股息，是的，但我們對此感到很舒服。我們喜歡擁有大量現金。我們甚至希望能夠在上半年結束前再發行另一筆債券交易。如果我們這樣做，那麼我們將擁有大量的流動性，在這種情況下，我們可能會被迫稍微降低我們的回報。但現在我們對我們將要進行的投資非常非常謹慎且非常有洞察力。並且不會做。

Steven Delaney, Citizens JMT.

史蒂文·德萊尼 (Steven Delaney)，公民 JMT。

Good morning, Brian, Pamela and everyone. Nice to be on with you nice to see the market rewarding your strong report this market morning and sort of a choppy tape. I'm just curious, I Brian, you've talked about the balance sheet lending capacity kind of opportunistically getting ahead a little bit, but any thoughts about the CMBS conduit lending market obviously weak on a quarterly basis, you know, an average about $750 million in 2023.

早安，布萊恩、帕梅拉和大家。很高興和你在一起，很高興看到市場在今天早上的市場報告中獎勵你的強勁報告，並且走勢有些波動。我只是很好奇，我布萊恩，你談到了資產負債表貸款能力有點機會主義地領先了一點，但是關於 CMBS 管道貸款市場的任何想法都明顯按季度疲軟，你知道，平均約為2023 年將達到7.5 億美元。

More importantly, very weak profitability. Kind of there's got to be a lot of good floating rate loans out there where property owners are just maybe waiting for a break in the 10-year and I know you're trying to hit a 10-year fixed rate loan. What what's your view of conduit lending over the next one to two years and should we expect the Ladder to be involved? Thank you.

更重要的是，獲利能力非常弱。那裡一定有很多好的浮動利率貸款，業主可能只是在等待 10 年期的休息，我知道你正在嘗試獲得 10 年期的固定利率貸款。您對未來一到兩年的管道貸款有何看法？我們是否應該期望階梯貸款參與其中？謝謝。

Sure. Ladder will be involved and we do expect it to continue to pick up. That has been ticking up it's very reminiscent of 2008 when we started, you had a very, very slow securitization business with very low volumes because spreads were quite high in this situation. It's not that spreads are high. Spreads were, okay. It's that rates are high. But when you set the indicator, so and at the end of the day, it's just the cost of money, and that's what really drives that formula.

當然。階梯將參與其中，我們確實預期它會繼續回升。這種情況一直在上升，這讓人想起我們剛開始的 2008 年，當時的證券化業務非常非常緩慢，交易量也非常低，因為在這種情況下利差相當高。並不是說點差很高。點差還可以。就是利率高。但當你設定指標時，最終，這只是資金成本，這才是真正推動公式的因素。

The other thing that's going on right now is there there's really little differential between a 5-year and a 10-year on the credit curve and so the sponsor or the borrower wants to borrow 10 years, whereas these lender wants to lend for five years. But that gets very tricky because when you make a five year loan in the conduit business, you start running into BP's mechanics where yields are in the 20s. So if you're to collect a 20%-something return over five years as opposed to something lower in the 10-year category, I think that's the tension going on right now between five and 10-year. Lenders, one 5, the borrowers one 10, I do believe the borrowers will win that argument. And ultimately, you will see a 10-year product coming out because there's plenty of investors looking for duration, I think evidenced yesterday by the largest 10-year ever options off it kind of went out the door pretty comfortably, and that should give a lot of people a lot of comfort then that you can go out 10 years on the curve.

目前正在發生的另一件事是，信用曲線上的 5 年期和 10 年期之間幾乎沒有什麼區別，因此發起人或借款人想要藉 10 年期，而這些貸方希望貸 5 年期。但這變得非常棘手，因為當你在管道業務中發放五年期貸款時，你會開始遇到 BP 的機械師，其收益率在 20 多歲。因此，如果你要在五年內獲得 20% 左右的回報，而不是在 10 年期類別中獲得較低的回報，我認為這就是目前在 5 年期和 10 年期之間存在的緊張局勢。貸款人一比五，借款人一比十，我相信借款人會贏得這場爭論。最終，你會看到 10 年期產品問世，因為有很多投資者在尋找久期，我認為昨天最大的 10 年期期權就證明了這一點，它相當輕鬆地走出了大門，這應該會給很多人都感到很安慰，因為你可以在曲線上度過10 年。

The bigger problem I think right now is up. It's really the difficulty that the sector is having with work from home even in multifamily, which is intuitively a stable category, but expenses are just going through the roof and insurance as well as taxes. So it's a difficult market, but it always does come back and it always does dip for us. And I would say this is what this is, how it looks right before. A really good opportunity occurs back in. I don't know what you're exactly but around 9 or 10, 2009, 2010, we're making over $100 million a year in the conduit business. I would not rule that out. I think we're going to need a normal normalization of the yield curve. We almost started getting there until recently, but I think that this is probably going to be a second half of the year conversation more than a first half of the year.

我認為現在更大的問題出現了。這確實是該行業在家中工作方面遇到的困難，即使在多戶家庭中，這直觀上是一個穩定的類別，但費用、保險和稅收都在飆升。所以這是一個困難的市場，但它總是會回來，而且對我們來說總是會下跌。我想說的是，這就是這，它以前的樣子。一個真正的好機會出現了。我不知道你到底是什麼，但大約在 2009 年、2010 年 9 月或 10 日左右，我們的管道業務每年賺取超過 1 億美元。我不排除這種可能性。我認為我們需要殖利率曲線正常化。直到最近我們才剛開始實現這一目標，但我認為這可能會成為今年下半年的討論，而不是上半年。

Okay. Thanks for that. And I just would add, you know, I think you're using your buyback selectively. Obviously, when you do that you're we are retiring permanent capital, but also to Stephen's question, when you pay out a dividend, you're getting rid of permanent capital to, I think anything around 80% of book or lower if you need to buy the stock and not increase the dividend. And that's just one person's one man's view. Thanks for your --?

好的。感謝那。我只是想補充一點，你知道，我認為你正在選擇性地使用回購。顯然，當你這樣做時，我們將收回永久資本，而且對於史蒂芬的問題，當你支付股息時，你將擺脫永久資本，我認為大約是賬面價值的 80% 或更低，如果你需要購買股票而不增加股利。這只是一個人的觀點。謝謝你的——？

Yes, I would say, Steve, just also if you look back into our stock repurchases, they kind of kick in at a certain level. And I think if you actually do a little review of that history, you'll find your comment to be pretty aggressive.

是的，我想說，史蒂夫，如果你回顧我們的股票回購，它們會在某種程度上發揮作用。我認為，如果你真的回顧這段歷史，你會發現你的評論相當激進。

Jade Rahmani, KBW.

傑德·拉赫馬尼，KBW。

And just a follow-up to Sarah's question about multi-family reviewing a report on multi-family and it's called multifamily mortgage credit risk lessons from history. And there's some comments in there that stand out. You know, it's a boom and bust asset class and the ease of build creates excess supply, which resulted in lower vacancies. So I think in addition to the expense headwinds you noted, there's also pressure on new lease rent and probably occupancies will dip in the Sunbelt markets. So can you comment on multifamily, Sunbelt exposure, what you see happening there and just framing expectations? I think that with upcoming maturities in some of these low cap rate deals, there inevitably will be a lot of pressure when it comes to qualify for a refinance.

這只是莎拉關於多戶家庭的問題的後續，審查了一份關於多戶家庭的報告，它被稱為歷史上的多戶抵押貸款信用風險教訓。其中有一些評論很引人注目。你知道，這是一個繁榮和蕭條的資產類別，建造的便利性造成供應過剩，導致空置率下降。因此，我認為除了您提到的費用阻力外，新租賃租金也面臨壓力，陽光地帶市場的入住率可能會下降。那麼，您能否評論一下多戶住宅、陽光地帶的曝光情況、您所看到的情況以及框架期望？我認為，隨著一些低上限利率交易即將到期，在獲得再融資資格時不可避免地會面臨很大的壓力。

I'm going to actually call on Craig Robertson to answer part of this, but I would tell you just from just saying when you say Sunbelt, I don't know if you're talking about latter or general, but however, I don't think the Sunbelt is going to have nearly the problems that a lot of people think. And it's mainly because of the demographics of the United States, the baby boomers continue to retire. They continue to age and there is no shortage of people moving to the Sunbelt. And I think as long as the stock market is plumbing all-time highs and as long as home values are quite high. You'll continue to see that that go on as they even if they partner with their low rate mortgages in Boston, Philadelphia, New York on. But as far as our Sunbelt exposure goes, it appears to be doing okay.

我實際上會請克雷格·羅伯遜來回答這個問題的一部分，但我只想告訴你，當你說“陽光地帶”時，我不知道你是在談論後者還是一般情況，但是，我不知道我認為陽光地帶不會遇到很多人想像的問題。這主要是因為美國的人口結構，嬰兒潮世代不斷退休。他們繼續老化，並且不乏搬到陽光地帶的人。我認為只要股市創下歷史新高且房屋價值相當高。即使他們在波士頓、費城和紐約繼續提供低利率抵押貸款，你也會繼續看到這種情況繼續下去。但就我們在陽光地帶的曝光來看，情況似乎還不錯。

The stresses if there is any is coming from a management that has too many assets at one time and they're struggling with it. You have to keep them focused and also the operating expenses. But the rents are okay. And I do believe there is some overbuilding that has taken place in a few places, principally Austin, Texas has quite a bit, but some are even we're beginning to see some parts of North Carolina look overbuilt too. But some high. We're not seeing problems with rents. If they're not quite where we wanted them to be, they're awfully close. And in many cases, those rents are being achieved without the requisite improvements that were supposed to be made. So a lot of the future advance money is not going out the door. And so if the rents are being achieved or nearly achieved without actually performing those those improvements.

壓力（如果有的話）來自於管理層，他們同時擁有太多資產，而且他們正在為此苦苦掙扎。你必須讓他們集中註意力，同時也要專注於營運費用。但房租還可以。我確實相信一些地方已經出現了過度建設的情況，主要是德克薩斯州的奧斯汀，但有些地方甚至我們開始看到北卡羅來納州的某些地區看起來也過度建設。但有些高。我們沒有看到租金問題。即使它們沒有達到我們想要的位置，它們也已經非常接近了。在許多情況下，這些租金是在沒有必要的改進的情況下實現的。因此，未來的大量預付款不會流出。因此，如果在沒有實際執行這些改進的情況下實現或接近實現租金。

So Craig, I don't know if you have anything on our particular Sunbelt exposure you want to share?

克雷格，我不知道您是否有關於我們特定的陽光地帶曝光的任何資訊想要分享？

No, I mean hard to add much to that. I think when we look at the Sunbelt exposure, the rents really are holding up on. We tended to lend on either newly built product or product at lower leverage points so I think when we look at how the assets are performing, we still very feel very comfortable at where we own them at our basis and at the yields that the properties are generating. And when we have had short-term blips in sponsorship, it's been possible to write them by examining the business plans reevaluating and take them through. So occupancy has held up across the portfolio. And I think we have avoided largely a lot of the markets where that focus is right now, and that are exhibiting some of the stress and Austin is a great example of that.

不，我的意思是很難對此進行補充。我認為，當我們觀察陽光地帶的風險時，租金確實保持不變。我們傾向於以較低的槓桿點向新產品或產品提供貸款，因此我認為，當我們查看資產的表現時，我們仍然對我們在基礎上擁有這些資產以及這些資產的收益率感到非常滿意。當我們在贊助方面出現短期波動時，可以透過檢查商業計劃、重新評估並透過它們來編寫它們。因此，整個投資組合的入住率一直保持不變。我認為我們基本上已經避開了目前重點關注的許多市場，這些市場正在表現出一些壓力，而奧斯汀就是一個很好的例子。

So I assume you're implying that there's little Austin exposure. Can you just comment on the debt yields that these properties are at or soon to be at based on your underwriting?

所以我猜你是在暗示奧斯汀的曝光率很低。您能否根據您的核保對這些房產目前或即將達到的債務收益率發表評論？

Yes. Right now, our multi-family portfolio shows a debt yield in the high fives at 85% occupancy with business plans still ongoing. We see those going up as they continue to lease. As I said, we're in the mid 80s occupancy with lease up and turns going. And when we pro forma it forward, even with current expense levels and current rents. We see those normalizing at levels that we're very comfortable with in the mid-sevens and plus depending on the assets.

是的。目前，我們的多戶住宅投資組合的債務收益率高達 85%，且業務計劃仍在進行中。隨著他們繼續租賃，我們看到這些價格正在上漲。正如我所說，我們正處於 80 年代中期的入住狀態，並且正在出租和輪換。當我們預計它時，即使當前的費用水平和當前的租金也是如此。我們看到這些正常化程度在我們非常滿意的七分之三以上，這取決於資產。

And that's on a debt yield basis?

這是基於債務收益率嗎？

That's on a debt yield basis.

這是以債務收益率為基礎的。

Yes. Okay. So I mean that could present challenges for the equity with net. Those are those leased those yet that yields don't leave that much room.

是的。好的。所以我的意思是，這可能會給淨資產帶來挑戰。那些是那些已出租的，但收益率並沒有留下那麼多空間。

Yes, but there's the the equity calculations on properties that were purchased 2 to 2.5 years ago are less rosy than they were 2.5 years ago for sure, yes.

是的，但是 2 到 2.5 年前購買的房產的淨值計算肯定沒有 2.5 年前那麼樂觀，是的。

So what's --?

有啥——？

Our experience has been the pain has been highlighted in the equity and there still have been positive returns when the business funds are completed. And that's been manifesting in our payoffs.

我們的經驗是，股權上的痛苦已經凸顯出來，但當業務資金完成時仍有正回報。這已經體現在我們的回報中。

Okay. So as a base case, let's say, a property gets to a 7% or 6.5% debt yield, just allowing some inflation pressure, what do you think happens in that situation when the loan comes up for maturity?

好的。因此，作為基本情況，假設一處房產的債務收益率達到 7% 或 6.5%，只允許一定的通膨壓力，您認為在這種情況下，當貸款到期時會發生什麼？

We expect the sponsor to purchase a cap and reload reserves if required and possibly even pay down the debt to a place where the lender us is comfortable. If they don't, then we'll see if they wanted to bring in an additional layer of debt through the mezzanine market. We are seeing that a little bit of that, which would pay us down and accomplish everything other than restoring ROEs to the equity. But it is what does that mean, it's more expensive to own real estate today than it was 2.5 years ago. That's not our fault, not their fault. It's just is a fact. And we're not overly concerned with it. And like for instance, we foreclosed and took title to a property in Pittsburgh, which is mostly multifamily and brand new home. There is nothing wrong with where we own this property. In fact, we're considering if we can take it to Freddie Mac right now on.

我們希望發起人購買上限並在需要時重新加載準備金，甚至可能將債務償還到貸款人我們感到滿意的地方。如果他們不這樣做，那麼我們將看看他們是否想透過夾層市場引入額外的債務層。我們看到了其中的一點點，這將使我們付出代價並完成除了將股本回報率恢復到股本之外的所有事情。但這意味著，如今擁有房地產的成本比 2.5 年前更高。這不是我們的錯，也不是他們的錯。這只是事實。我們並不過分關心它。舉例來說，我們取消了匹茲堡一處房產的贖回權並取得了所有權，該房產主要是多戶住宅和全新住宅。我們擁有該房產的地方沒有任何問題。事實上，我們正​​在考慮是否可以立即將其交給房地美。

However, the sponsor either did not have the capital or did not feel it was worth his while to continue feeding a core ROE and from 2.5 years prior to that. But so as I said earlier in my comments, what we're really experiencing and seeing now so far is most of the pain is on the equity side and the sponsors are deciding do we put more money into this, even though their first ROE calculation didn't pan out the way we wanted it to or do we just say let's not face this.

然而，發起人要么沒有資金，要么認為不值得繼續提供 2.5 年前的核心 ROE。但正如我之前在評論中所說，到目前為止，我們真正經歷和看到的大部分痛苦都在股權方面，贊助商正在決定我們是否要投入更多資金，儘管他們的第一次股本回報率計算沒有按照我們想要的方式發展，或者我們只是說讓我們不要面對這個。

And as Pamela mentioned, we do we take great pride in not calling default losses until we believe we have evidence of loss occurring. But so far, the all the pain that is existing, not all of it, but most of the pain you're seeing is really on the equity side. And as I said, we're almost through 2021 was when we started seeing extraordinarily leveraged properties, we purchased that three 3.5 caps. It was right around the time where Ladder Capital switched to doing fixed rate on two year loans with fees and fees out. And we attracted brand new properties coming off construction loans. And so as a result of that, that's the that's the season we're dealing with right now. We're dealing with fixed rate loans that are maturing that are doing just fine and they're brand new. And so the borrower has to figure out how to refinance it or pay it down or extend it. But we're happy to work with them. On that if they're performing fine. But I think still the ROE calculation is just not what they had hoped it would be.

正如帕梅拉所提到的，我們確實感到非常自豪，直到我們相信我們有發生損失的證據之前，我們才宣布違約損失。但到目前為止，所有存在的痛苦，不是全部，但你看到的大部分痛苦確實是在股權方面。正如我所說，2021 年即將過去，我們開始看到槓桿率極高的房產，我們購買了三個 3.5 上限。就在那時，Ladder Capital 轉而提供兩年期固定利率貸款，並免除費用。我們也吸引了來自建築貸款的全新房產。因此，這就是我們現在正在處理的季節。我們正在處理即將到期的固定利率貸款，這些貸款表現良好，而且是全新的。因此，借款人必須弄清楚如何再融資、償還貸款或延長貸款期限。但我們很高興與他們合作。如果他們表現良好的話。但我認為淨資產收益率的計算結果仍然不是他們所希望的那樣。

And I wanted to add --

我想添加--

These are in the mid fives, there's pref available and the sponsor can also sell the assets at the deals we talked about and we're seeing that as well.

這些都在五十五歲左右，有可用的優先權，贊助商也可以在我們討論的交易中出售資產，我們也看到了這一點。

The other thing I wanted to add is of our payoffs in this year, 40% were in multifamily. So I agree with your comment, but caveat that you're seeing spot to defend, especially when it's not a widely syndicated asset and they're invested in the asset. We are seeing them pay off and we are seeing them defend and buying that work. I'm comfortable at our bases in any event and I think some of this could actually lead to opportunity.

我想補充的另一件事是我們今年的收益，40% 是在多戶住宅。因此，我同意您的評論，但請注意，您看到了值得捍衛的地方，特別是當它不是廣泛的銀團資產並且他們投資於該資產時。我們看到他們得到了回報，我們看到他們捍衛併購買了這項工作。無論如何，我對我們的基地感到很舒服，我認為其中一些實際上可能會帶來機會。

(Operator Instructions) Matthew Howlett, B. Riley Securities.

（操作員指令）Matthew Howlett，B. Riley Securities。

Yes, hey, thanks for taking my question. Just to follow up on the theme around credit. And I look at the headlines every day on commercial real estate, very stern looks that they're seeing a $1 trillion in losses for the office sector. And then look with the fear in the stock prices, even the lenders where your portfolio is holding up well in managing our interest rates, you've taken very few properties back. What's the disconnect I mean, Brian, you talked about the sponsors are going to still holding onto for a while now. Do we really need to see rates just come down, cap rates come down for this to all work out and not see this crisis and defaults that some of the headlines are suggesting.

是的，嘿，謝謝你提出我的問題。只是為了跟進圍繞信貸的主題。我每天都會看商業房地產的頭條新聞，非常嚴肅地看到辦公大樓產業損失了 1 兆美元。然後看看股票價格的恐懼，即使你的投資組合在管理我們的利率方面表現良好，你也收回了很少的財產。我的意思是，布萊恩，你談到贊助商現在仍將堅持一段時間，這是什麼脫節。我們是否真的需要看到利率下降、上限利率下降才能解決所有問題，而不是看到一些頭條新聞暗示的這場危機和違約。

And I actually don't think that said, I think what you're seeing the headlines in particular tend to be focused around large cities and media centers. And there was a lot of lending that took place in Washington, D.C. and some of the larger gateway cities and those cities are struggling with and something other than high interest rates there. If there is a work-from-home component of that, there's a criminal element taking place there as people a wealth exit is taking place in some of these states. It's a tax situation where people are moving out of certain Northeast cities down to Sunbelt. So those are fixable it's not like they can't be straightened out, but the market is resetting and some and that's going to be painful.

我實際上並不這麼認為，我認為你所看到的頭條新聞往往集中在大城市和媒體中心。華盛頓特區和一些較大的門戶城市發生了大量貸款，這些城市正在苦苦掙扎，除了高利率之外。如果其中有在家工作的成分，那麼當其中一些州的人們正在財富退出時，那裡就會發生犯罪分子。這是一種稅收情況，人們正在從某些東北城市搬到陽光地帶。因此，這些問題是可以解決的，並不是說它們無法解決，但市場正在重置，有些問題將是痛苦的。

So the disconnect, I think at Ladder is that we have smaller loans. We do have some large loans. We have a couple of loans over $100 million in two or three of them. Actually two of them are in Miami were oven tour. We feel good there. It's probably the best office market in the United States and on. It is just a high degree of caution and yield, a lack of belief that large institutions would not get a lot of people thought they would never get properties back, but there they are economic animals. These are non-recourse loans and they're handing them back and forth?

所以我認為在Ladder，脫節在於我們的貸款規模較小。我們確實有一些大額貸款。我們有兩三筆貸款超過 1 億美元。其實他們兩人是在邁阿密進行烤箱巡迴演出的。我們在那裡感覺很好。它可能是美國及其他地區最好的辦公市場。這只是高度的謹慎和收益，缺乏信念，認為大型機構不會讓很多人認為他們永遠無法拿回財產，但他們是經濟動物。這些是無追索權貸款，他們來來回回？

Yes, ultimately, it will reset find a new level. And yes, the good part is we are seeing those buildings trade. I mean, and if you start seeing bank selling commercial real estate mortgages at very deep discounts. That's going to add a little more pressure to what I think you have to really look at where the lending has taken place. And I don't think latter will ever be accused of competing in the most competitive markets with the other lenders. In fact, we prefer flyover states and smaller populations and which we always felt that the pandemic would actually broaden out the workforce and allow people to stay in St. Louis, stay in Memphis and stay in Houston rather than move to Los Angeles or New York. So I think that that is the disconnect if there is one of them.

是的，最終，它會重置並找到一個新的水平。是的，好的方面是我們正在看到這些建築物的交易。我的意思是，如果你開始看到銀行以非常大的折扣出售商業房地產抵押貸款。我認為這將增加一點壓力，你必須真正了解貸款發生的地點。我認為後者永遠不會被指責在競爭最激烈的市場上與其他貸方競爭。事實上，我們更喜歡飛越的州和人口較少的州，我們一直認為這種流行病實際上會擴大勞動力範圍，讓人們留在聖路易斯、孟菲斯和休士頓，而不是搬到洛杉磯或紐約。所以我認為，如果有其中一個的話，那就是脫節。

Having said that, there's pressure on all of it. Again, there were, but still some of the work from home items. We're not really talking about a big difference because Friday was already done. So a lot of people are at three and four days a week, you're seeing a lot of companies go to five days a week now. But the real problem is places like Washington, D.C., where the federal government is still operating under an emergency COVID protocol. They are not back at their jobs. They do not go to the office and Starbucks and McDonald's are closing in certain cities, not because the same thing wrong with the city. It's just that everyone staying hope so. And it's also probably one of the reasons that apartments will hold up more than more than people think. And we're we don't think the apartments situation is nearly as bad as a lot of people think at the problem with the apartment situation was people were financing three camps at a time when they probably should not have been if they started looking at the mid-6 six cap. So that normalizes very quickly.

話雖如此，所有這些都存在壓力。同樣，有，但仍然有一些來自家居用品的工作。我們並不是真的在談論很大的差異，因為星期五已經過去了。所以很多人每週工作三到四天，你會看到很多公司現在每週工作五天。但真正的問題是像華盛頓特區這樣的地方，那裡的聯邦政府仍在按照新冠緊急協議運作。他們還沒有回到自己的工作崗位。他們不去辦公室，星巴克和麥當勞在某些城市關門，並不是因為這個城市出現了同樣的問題。只是大家都抱著這樣的希望。這也可能是公寓比人們想像的更耐用的原因之一。我們認為公寓的情況並不像很多人想像的那麼糟糕，公寓情況的問題在於人們一次為三個營地提供資金，而如果他們開始考慮的話，他們可能不應該這樣做。6 中六上限。所以這種情況很快就會正常化。

Absolutely. So Brian, do you feel what's happening with New York Community Bancorp. I mean, is this a is this going to fuel a crisis like oh eight, oh nine and it doesn't sound like it? And do you view it as like an opportunity for latter. I mean, it's been more of these banks have to sell assets, retreat from the lending. How you do -- do you think it's getting (multiple speakers) banks go down?

絕對地。布萊恩，你覺得紐約社區銀行發生了什麼事嗎？我的意思是，這是否會加劇像哦八、哦九這樣的危機，但聽起來不像？您是否認為這對後者來說是一個機會？我的意思是，越來越多的銀行不得不出售資產，退出貸款。你是怎麼做的－你認為這會導致（多個發言者）銀行倒閉嗎？

I'd offer Lehman's opinion on that. And I have no inside information, nor do I really think I have it figured out, but you have to is there something going on there because New York Community Bank was part of the solution around Signature Bank. And so you have to assume before the FDIC. allowed them to participate in taking assets and deposits from Signature Bank. They took a look at them and so they must have been healthy less than a year ago. So what happened now? They do have large loans and there was some discussion about how one of the loans that caused the big headache was a co-op loan in New York.

我會就此提出雷曼的看法。我沒有任何內幕消息，我也不認為我已經弄清楚了，但你必須知道那裡發生了什麼，因為紐約社區銀行是簽名銀行解決方案的一部分。所以你必須在 FDIC 面前做出假設。允許他們參與從 Signature Bank 獲取資產和存款。他們看了他們一眼，所以不到一年前他們一定還很健康。那麼現在發生了什麼事？他們確實擁有大量貸款，並且有人討論過其中一項引起大麻煩的貸款是紐約的合作社貸款。

That's nearly inconceivable to me because co-op loans rarely borrow money. And if they do, it's usually 20%, 30% leverage. So and but they do have a lot of rent-controlled loans on their balance sheet and they probably have some office loans that are probably a little too big for them. But so I guess I struggle with that. There seems to be a disconnect there.

這對我來說幾乎是不可想像的，因為合作貸款很少借錢。如果他們這樣做，通常是 20%、30% 的槓桿。所以，但他們的資產負債表上確實有很多租金管制貸款，而且他們可能有一些辦公室貸款，對他們來說可能有點太大了。但我想我對此很掙扎。那裡似乎存在脫節。

Something happened later about when they started looking at their portfolio. This isn't this isn't Signature Bank and Silicon Valley Bank having 10-year assets that if they sell one, they have to mark the whole book. And that capital goes up and in place, this is something different. And I do think they have some defaults that I can't imagine they didn't know about them, but I do view this as rather idiosyncratic to them. However, I do think lenders with high concentrations of rent-controlled apartments and rent-stabilized apartments, given the changes that have taken place in some of these cities are there, those are going to be problematic.

後來當他們開始審視自己的投資組合時，發生了一些事情。這不是Signature Bank和Silicon Valley Bank擁有10年資產，如果他們出售一項，就必須標記整本書。資本增加並就位，這是不同的。我確實認為他們有一些默認設置，我無法想像他們不知道這些默認設置，但我確實認為這對他們來說相當特殊。然而，我確實認為，考慮到其中一些城市已經發生的變化，租金管制公寓和租金穩定公寓高度集中的貸款機構將會出現問題。

I don't think they're going to be problematic to the point of like putting them out of business. I do think there will be some losses there that. And then as far as opportunity goes, I don't know. I mean, we've actually bought loans from New York Community Bank in the past. None of that in this round of that for a good lender from what I know of. And so signature was a little bit more aggressive, but not bad at all. And we wouldn't have any trouble buying loans from them if they wanted to sell them. But my suspicion is you're going to want to sell office loans in New York, which which might be a little less comfortable for us?

我不認為他們會出現問題以至於讓他們破產。我確實認為那裡會有一些損失。至於機會如何，我不知道。我的意思是，我們過去實際上從紐約社區銀行購買過貸款。據我所知，在這一輪中，對於一個好的貸方來說，這些都不是。所以簽名有點激進，但一點也不差。如果他們想出售貸款，我們向他們購買貸款不會有任何問題。但我懷疑你會想出售紐約的辦公室貸款，這對我們來說可能有點不太舒服？

Yes.

是的。

No, it was some packages are now at least on the residual side and others. And last question, you referenced the bond deal first half of this year you've been masterful and how you've structured the balance sheet? Or would you be talking about a CLO or an unsecured deal? I'm just curious, would you want to go a little bit towards more floating rate debt? Or do you feel like, you know, you've got the the way you have a structure now that fixed-rate debt and six, do you want to keep it exactly the way you've done it.

不，有些包裹現在至少在剩餘一側，還有一些包裹。最後一個問題，您提到了今年上半年您出色的債券交易以及您如何建立資產負債表？或者您會談論 CLO 或無擔保交易？我只是好奇，你想增加一點浮動利率債務嗎？或者你覺得，你知道，你現在已經有了固定利率債務和六的結構，你想維持它原來的方式嗎？

I think the comment on the first one, no, I don't see a new CLO deal going out until we start originating more loans we have two out there right now. They're they're just coming off their managed periods. So they'll start paying down soon. But Tom, as far as it's a new a new issue that would be a fixed rate unsecured, hopefully longer than seven years because we do have a 2029 outstanding, which will come due and we'd like to always take out more term rather than inside of the longest maturity we've got. But given the liquidity situation we've got we're frankly not going to borrow money unless it's cheap and don't have much to add people who invest in mortgage rates right now want to lend money because it's expensive. And so there's a little bit of a disconnect there. However, we did see some signs of life there. There was a mortgage REIT that -- it did issue $1 billion unsecured the other day at pretty attractive terms. What's that?

我認為對第一個的評論是，不，在我們開始發放更多貸款之前，我不會看到新的 CLO 交易，我們現在有兩筆貸款。他們剛結束經期管理。所以他們很快就會開始還款。但是湯姆，就它而言，這是一個新的新發行，將是固定利率無擔保的，希望時間超過七年，因為我們確實有2029 年的未償還債券，該債券即將到期，我們希望總是拿出更多的期限，而不是在我們擁有的最長的成熟度之內。但考慮到我們現有的流動性狀況，坦白說，我們不會藉錢，除非它很便宜，而且現在投資抵押貸款利率的人也沒有太多可以藉錢的地方，因為它很昂貴。所以這裡存在一點脫節。然而，我們確實在那裡看到了一些生命的跡象。有一個抵押貸款房地產投資信託基金——前幾天它確實以相當有吸引力的條件發行了 10 億美元的無擔保債券。那是什麼？

It was just over 7%, correct? We're looking at the same one.

剛剛超過 7%，對嗎？我們正在看同一個。

Yes. Yes, that's right. Anyway, I think the name of the company is Mr. Cooper, but that tightens about 50 from where the talk was. So there has been a real lack of supply in that market. And I'd like to get involved in that if we can issue more unsecured corporate debt. However, this recent pop in spreads rates and noise around New York Community Bank has probably dash that for a little while. But I do think as we get out towards if the yield curve starts getting a little bit more on normalized where the two year falls again on? Yes, we might very well go. Then we have to be able to lend money at rates higher than we're borrowing it at.

是的。恩，那就對了。無論如何，我認為該公司的名字是庫柏先生，但這比談話的地方緊縮了大約 50。因此，該市場確實存在供應不足。如果我們能夠發行更多無擔保公司債務，我願意參與其中。然而，最近利差率的上升和紐約社區銀行周圍的噪音可能會暫時打破這一局面。但我確實認為，當我們開始考慮殖利率曲線是否開始在兩年期再次下跌的標準化位置上增加一點？是的，我們很可能會去。然後我們必須能夠以高於借錢的利率借錢。

Right, right. Exactly. So the seven breadth of the same thing is that you saw and not, but we'll just wait for that. You guys have plenty of options and I really appreciate the answers. Thanks, everyone.

是的是的。確切地。所以同一件事的七個寬度是你看到的和沒有看到的，但我們只是等待。你們有很多選擇，我真的很感謝你們的答案。感謝大家。

I would now like to turn the call over to Brian Harris for closing remarks.

我現在想將電話轉交給布萊恩·哈里斯（Brian Harris），他將發表結束語。

Our long here, difficult year successful year at Ladder. Thank you to our investors, our employees, bondholders, and we appreciate you staying with us and with the Fed stressful time. But yes, we tend to do well in those periods of time, and we are very optimistic about the future here. We think that most of the difficulties are going to be ending around June or July, and then things will be a lot better from there, and we're hoping to hit a point where all of our products are contributing to our earnings each quarter. So thank you all, and we'll see at the end of the first quarter.

我們在天梯上度過了漫長而艱難的一年，並取得了成功。感謝我們的投資者、員工、債券持有人，我們感謝你們與我們在一起，度過聯準會的緊張時期。但是，是的，我們在這些時期往往做得很好，而且我們對這裡的未來非常樂觀。我們認為大部分困難將在六月或七月左右結束，然後情況會好得多，我們希望達到一個點，即我們所有的產品每個季度都為我們的收入做出貢獻。謝謝大家，我們將在第一季末看到。

This concludes today's teleconference. You may disconnect your lines at this time and thank you for your participation.

今天的電話會議到此結束。此時您可以斷開線路，感謝您的參與。