KKR Real Estate Finance Trust Inc (KREF) 2025 Q1 法說會逐字稿

Good morning, and welcome to the KKR Real Estate Finance Trust, Inc. First Quarter 2025 Financial Results Conference Call. Please note this event is being recorded.

早安，歡迎參加 KKR 房地產金融信託公司 2025 年第一季財務業績電話會議。請注意，此事件正在被記錄。

I would now like to turn the conference over to Jack Switala. Please go ahead.

現在我想將會議交給傑克‧斯威塔拉 (Jack Switala)。請繼續。

Great. Thanks, operator, and welcome to the KKR Real Estate Finance Trust Earnings Call for the first quarter of 2025. As the operator mentioned, this is Jack Switala. This morning, I'm joined on the call by our CEO, Matt Salem; our President and COO, Patrick Mattson; and our CFO, Kendra Decious.

偉大的。謝謝接線員，歡迎參加 2025 年第一季 KKR 房地產金融信託收益電話會議。正如接線員所說，我是傑克‧斯威塔拉。今天早上，我們的執行長 Matt Salem、總裁兼營運長 Patrick Mattson 和財務長 Kendra Decious 參加了電話會議。

I'd like to remind everyone that we will refer to certain non-GAAP financial measures on the call, which are reconciled to GAAP figures in our earnings release and in the supplementary presentation, both of which are available on the Investor Relations portion of our website. This call will also contain certain forward-looking statements, which do not guarantee future events or performance. Please refer to our most recently filed 10-Q for cautionary factors related to these statements.

我想提醒大家，我們將在電話會議上參考某些非 GAAP 財務指標，這些指標與我們收益報告和補充報告中的 GAAP 數據相協調，這兩項數據均可在我們網站的投資者關係部分查閱。本次電話會議也將包含某些前瞻性陳述，這些陳述不保證未來事件或表現。請參閱我們最近提交的 10-Q，以了解與這些聲明相關的警示因素。

Before I turn the call over to Matt, I'll go through our results. For the first quarter of 2025, we reported a GAAP net loss of $10.6 million or $0.15 per share. Book value as of March 31 is $14.44 per share. Distributable earnings this quarter was $17 million or $0.25 per share, which is in line with our $0.25 per share dividend.

在將電話轉給馬特之前，我將先介紹我們的結果。2025 年第一季度，我們報告的 GAAP 淨虧損為 1,060 萬美元，即每股 0.15 美元。截至 3 月 31 日的帳面價值為每股 14.44 美元。本季可分配收益為 1,700 萬美元，即每股 0.25 美元，與我們每股 0.25 美元的股息一致。

With that, I'd now like to turn the call over to Matt.

說完這些，我現在想把電話轉給馬特。

Thank you, Jack. Good morning, and thanks for joining our call today. Since our last earnings call and tariff implementations, market volatility and recession expectations have increased significantly, creating uncertainty for both businesses and households. The early recovery of real estate has likely been put on hold until we have more clarity on the scale and impact of the tariff relief. That said, we do believe real estate is better positioned for this environment compared to past cycles and other asset classes, given the reset in values over the last three years.

謝謝你，傑克。早安，感謝您今天參加我們的電話會議。自從我們上次財報電話會議和關稅實施以來，市場波動和經濟衰退預期大幅增加，為企業和家庭帶來了不確定性。在我們更清楚地了解關稅減免的規模和影響之前，房地產的早期復甦可能會被擱置。儘管如此，考慮到過去三年價值的重置，我們確實相信，與過去的周期和其他資產類別相比，房地產更適合這種環境。

In times like this, the first thing we think about is defense. It's a get your house in order mentality. And to that end, we are in a very good position. We have no corporate maturities until 2030, having just upsized and extended our corporate revolver for a new five-year term and refinanced our Term Loan B with a new seven-year facility. We have ample liquidity with over $700 million today. Given this secure position, we will remain on offense, actively looking to reinvest repayments into new originations.

在這種時候，我們首先想到的就是防守。這是一種讓你的房子井然有序的心態。為此，我們處於非常有利的地位。我們的公司債務直到 2030 年才到期，我們剛剛擴大公司循環信貸額度並將其延長至新的五年期，並透過新的七年期貸款為定期貸款 B 進行再融資。我們擁有充足的流動資金，目前已超過 7 億美元。鑑於這一安全地位，我們將繼續進攻，積極尋求將還款再投資於新的發起。

In terms of what we are seeing in the real estate credit market, it is still functioning and all market participants remain active, including the banking sector. Warehouse financing and senior loan spreads are approximately 10 basis points to 15 basis points wider, while the transitional loan sector spreads are approximately 15 basis points to 20 basis points wider. CMBS spreads have been more volatile and are currently 50 basis points to 75 basis points wider.

就我們所看到的房地產信貸市場而言，它仍在運作，所有市場參與者都保持活躍，包括銀行業。倉儲融資和優先貸款利差約擴大 10 至 15 個基點，而過渡貸款部門利差約擴大 15 至 20 個基點。CMBS 利差波動較大，目前已擴大 50 個基點至 75 個基點。

Many owners are now coming to us for a balance sheet solution to avoid the capital markets volatility. From an opportunity perspective, it's significant. Our pipeline is the largest it's ever been, totaling over $30 billion and is very high quality. I expect this market will lead our sponsors to seek out more short-term bridge loans instead of testing the investment sales market.

許多業主現在向我們尋求資產負債表解決方案，以避免資本市場的波動。從機會角度來看，這意義重大。我們的管道規模是有史以來最大的，總額超過 300 億美元，而且品質非常高。我預期這個市場將促使我們的贊助商尋求更多的短期過橋貸款，而不是測試投資銷售市場。

Interestingly, our repayment expectations have increased since our last call. As we articulated last quarter, repayments are expected to exceed $1 billion this year, and we are tracking well above that. We had an active quarter and closed 4 loans for a total of $376 million, 80% of which were secured by Class A multifamily properties that had a weighted average LTV of 69% and a coupon of SOFR-plus 277 basis points. Repayments in the quarter were $184 million. And along with future funding from existing loans, our net fundings totaled $222 million.

有趣的是，自上次通話以來，我們的還款預期會增加。正如我們上個季度所表達的，預計今年的還款額將超過 10 億美元，而且我們的追蹤數字遠高於這一水平。本季我們業務活躍，共計完成了 4 筆貸款，總額為 3.76 億美元，其中 80% 由 A 級多戶型物業擔保，這些物業的加權平均 LTV 為 69%，票面利率為 SOFR+ 277 個基點。本季還款額為 1.84 億美元。加上現有貸款的未來資金，我們的淨資金總額達到 2.22 億美元。

We are actively looking at opportunities to diversify our portfolio and add duration. To that end, we are focused on the European lending market. We have built a strong team over the last few years. We are also looking at new issue CMBS conduit B-Pieces, where we can leverage our position as one of the largest market participants as well as K-Star, which is our rated special servicer.

我們正在積極尋找機會來分散我們的投資組合併增加其期限。為此，我們專注於歐洲貸款市場。在過去的幾年裡，我們已經建立了一支強大的團隊。我們也在關注新發行的 CMBS 管道 B-Pieces，我們可以利用我們作為最大市場參與者之一的地位以及我們評級的特殊服務商 K-Star。

Turning next to risk ratings. We downgraded two loans this quarter. First, a Raleigh, North Carolina multifamily loan from a 4-rated loan to a 5-rated loan. We are still evaluating numerous scenarios for this loan and are engaged in workout discussions, which could lead to an ownership position.

接下來討論風險評級。本季我們下調了兩筆貸款的評級。首先，北卡羅來納州羅利市的一筆多戶型貸款從 4 級貸款升至 5 級貸款。我們仍在評估這筆貸款的多種方案，並正在進行解決方案討論，這可能會帶來所有權地位。

Second, loss in Life Science from a 3-rated to a 4-rated loan due to current occupancy trends. With the two downgrades in the quarter and therefore, increased CECL provisions, book value per share is $14.44, down approximately 2%, compared to the prior quarter. We will continue to be transparent and proactive in managing the KREF portfolio, and we'll provide updates on those two loans in the coming quarters.

其次，由於目前的佔用趨勢，生命科學產業的貸款評級從 3 級降至 4 級。由於本季出現兩次降級，因此 CECL 撥備增加，每股帳面價值為 14.44 美元，較上一季下降約 2%。我們將繼續透明且積極主動地管理 KREF 投資組合，並將在未來幾個季度提供這兩筆貸款的最新情況。

Before turning it over to Patrick, I will touch on our Life Science exposure. This is a sector that we believe has long-term positive fundamentals, but faces cyclical headwinds, which could be exacerbated by an economic downturn or NIH funding cost -- funding cuts. As a reminder, 12% of our loan portfolio is Life Science, and we have one REO property. We thought it would be helpful to provide additional details in our supplemental, which is on page 10 of the presentation.

在交給派崔克之前，我想先談談我們的生命科學經驗。我們認為，這個行業具有長期積極的基本面，但面臨週期性逆風，經濟衰退或 NIH 資金成本（資金削減）可能會加劇這種逆風。提醒一下，我們的貸款組合中有 12% 是生命科學，並且我們擁有一個 REO 資產。我們認為在簡報的第 10 頁的補充資料中提供更多詳細資訊會有所幫助。

At a high level, 100% of our loan exposure is located in the top 2 Life Science markets, Boston and South San Francisco, and we provided construction financing for over half of our exposure. So these are very high quality and purpose-built for Life Science. We've seen some green shoots as well. In March, we executed a 32,000 square foot lease in our Seattle Life Science REO property to the Institute for Protein Design at the University of Washington. The tenant has created AI technologies and computationally designed protein medicines and is led by a recent Nobel Prize winner for chemistry.

從高層次來看，我們的 100% 貸款都集中在前兩大生命科學市場——波士頓和南舊金山，我們為超過一半的貸款提供了建設融資。所以這些都是非常高品質的並且專為生命科學而設計的。我們也看到了一些復甦的跡象。3 月份，我們將西雅圖生命科學 REO 地產中的 32,000 平方英尺租賃給華盛頓大學蛋白質設計研究所。該租戶創造了人工智慧技術和計算設計的蛋白質藥物，並由最近的諾貝爾化學獎得主領導。

With that, I'll turn it over to Patrick.

說完這些，我就把麥克風交給派崔克。

Thanks, Matt. Good morning, everyone. This quarter, we worked closely with our KKR Capital Markets team to maintain our best-in-class financing. In March, we closed on a new $550 million Term Loan B, upsizing from the prior loan of $340 million and resetting the term for seven years. Proceeds were used to repay indebtedness, including our existing Term Loan B and for general corporate purposes. The new Term Loan B priced at 99.875% and bears interest at SOFR-plus 325 basis points. This loan further bolsters our liquidity position and enables us to continue to focus on offense.

謝謝，馬特。大家早安。本季度，我們與 KKR 資本市場團隊密切合作，以保持一流的融資。3 月份，我們完成了一筆新的 5.5 億美元定期貸款 B，較之前的 3.4 億美元貸款有所增加，貸款期限重新設定為七年。所得款項用於償還債務，包括我們現有的定期貸款 B 以及用於一般公司用途。新的定期貸款 B 的定價為 99.875%，利率為 SOFR 加 325 個基點。這筆貸款進一步增強了我們的流動性狀況，使我們能夠繼續專注於進攻。

In the quarter, we also upsized our corporate revolver to $660 million and extended the maturity for a new five-year term to March 2030, eliminating corporate liability maturities over the next several years. Additionally, we added a new non-mark-to-market secured loan facility this quarter with an initial funded size of $122 million and the ability to grow as new loans are included, further diversifying our financing capacity.

本季度，我們還將公司循環信貸額度增加至 6.6 億美元，並將新的五年期限延長至 2030 年 3 月，消除了未來幾年的公司債務到期日。此外，本季我們增加了一項新的非以市價計價的擔保貸款工具，其初始融資規模為 1.22 億美元，並且隨著新貸款的加入而能夠增長，從而進一步豐富我們的融資能力。

Our financing availability now sits at $8.3 billion, including $3.1 billion of undrawn capacity. At quarter end, we had $720 million of liquidity available, including $106 million of cash on hand and $570 million of undrawn corporate revolver capacity. 78% of our financing is non-mark-to-market and KREF has no final facility maturities until 2026 and no corporate debt due until 2030. In addition to originations this quarter, we also invested capital in share repurchases. In the first quarter, we repurchased $10 million of KREF stock, representing a weighted average price of $11.03. This raises our total shares repurchased in the past two quarters to $20 million at a weighted average price of $11.33.

我們目前的融資可用性為 83 億美元，其中包括 31 億美元的未動用融資能力。截至本季末，我們擁有 7.2 億美元的可用流動資金，包括 1.06 億美元的庫存現金和 5.7 億美元的未提取企業循環信貸額度。 78% 的融資為非以市價計價，KREF 在 2026 年之前沒有最終貸款到期，在 2030 年之前沒有企業債務到期。除了本季的發起外，我們還投資了股票回購。第一季度，我們回購了價值1000萬美元的KREF股票，加權平均價格為11.03美元。這使得我們過去兩季回購的股票總額達到2,000萬美元，加權平均價格為11.33美元。

Our CECL reserve increased to $144 million with two rating downgrades Matt mentioned. Our loan portfolio remains relatively stable with 90% of the portfolio risk rated 3 or better. As an update on our West Hollywood multifamily loan, risk rated 5 as of quarter end, we took title to the asset earlier this month and are proceeding on our condo execution strategy with unit closings anticipated for late summer. As a result of the assignment in lieu of foreclosure, we expect to realize a loss tied to this investment of approximately $21 million to distributable earnings in 2Q, which is consistent with our CECL reserve as of 1Q.

由於 Matt 提到的兩次評級下調，我們的 CECL 儲備增加至 1.44 億美元。我們的貸款組合保持相對穩定，90% 的貸款組合風險評級為 3 或更高。作為我們西好萊塢多戶型貸款的最新消息，截至季度末，風險評級為 5，我們已於本月初取得資產所有權，並正在執行我們的公寓執行策略，預計單位將於夏末關閉。由於以轉讓代替取消抵押品贖回權，我們預計第二季與此項投資相關的損失約為 2,100 萬美元，計入可分配收益，這與我們截至第一季的 CECL 儲備一致。

As a reminder, our REO assets could generate an additional $0.12 per share per quarter on our distributable earnings as we effectuate our business plans, repatriate capital and reinvest into performing loans. As of the first quarter, KREF's debt-to-equity ratio is 1.9 times, and our leverage ratio is 3.9 times. Following two repayments totaling $283 million early in the second quarter, on a spot basis, the current leverage ratio is 3.7 times, which is the midpoint of our target range.

提醒一下，隨著我們實施業務計劃、匯回資本並再投資於正常貸款，我們的 REO 資產每季可以為我們的可分配收益產生額外的每股 0.12 美元。截至第一季，KREF的負債權益比為1.9倍，我們的槓桿率為3.9倍。繼第二季初兩次總計 2.83 億美元的還款之後，以現貨計算，目前槓桿率為 3.7 倍，這是我們目標範圍的中點。

In closing, we're positioned well for this market environment given steps that we've taken over the years to manage our liabilities, including our most recent activity in the first quarter to increase and extend our corporate facilities. We're continuing to make progress on our REO assets and are supported by a deep and experienced credit team of over 110 associates and who together with K-Star, managed $37 billion of CRE loans and our named special servicer on over $46 billion of CMBS.

最後，考慮到我們多年來為管理負債所採取的措施，包括我們在第一季為增加和擴展公司設施所採取的最新措施，我們在這種市場環境中處於有利地位。我們在 REO 資產方面繼續取得進展，並得到一支由 110 多名員工組成的資深且經驗豐富的信貸團隊的支持，他們與 K-Star 一起管理著 370 億美元的 CRE 貸款，並由我們指定的特別服務商管理著超過 460 億美元的 CMBS。

Origination activity is picking up speed, and we're expanding our investment opportunity into the European loan market and the US CMBS market. Finally, the portfolio grew 4% quarter-over-quarter, and we expect to recycle capital into new opportunities throughout the balance of this year.

發起活動正在加速，我們正在將投資機會擴展到歐洲貸款市場和美國 CMBS 市場。最後，投資組合環比成長了 4%，我們預計今年餘下時間裡，我們將把資本再循環到新的機會中。

Thank you for joining us. And now we're happy to take your questions.

感謝您加入我們。現在我們很高興回答您的問題。

Rick Shane, J.P. Morgan.

摩根大通的里克·沙恩。

Look, I think there are two things that are going on here. You're working through some of the portfolio issues that you've identified previously. You've raised concerns related to the macro environment. Two things. One, when you think about the macro issues, are you looking at this from a big picture perspective and just saying, hey, risk and uncertainty is increasing? Or are there specific properties within the portfolio that you identify is for whatever reason, being at greater risk?

看，我認為這裡發生了兩件事。您正在解決之前發現的一些投資組合問題。您提出了與宏觀環境相關的擔憂。兩件事。首先，當您考慮宏觀問題時，您是否從宏觀角度看待這個問題，並說，嘿，風險和不確定性正在增加？或者，您是否發現投資組合中的某些特定資產因某種原因而面臨更大的風險？

And then the second part of the question is, given the return on capital that you're -- it appears that you're going to generate in '25. How do you think about the dividend policy as we move through the year?

然後問題的第二部分是，考慮到你的資本回報率——看起來你將在 25 年產生。您如何看待今年的股利政策？

Rick, it's Matt. Thank you for the question and for joining us. I think I can start off and take both those pieces. As it relates to the economic environment, I'd say, we're probably thinking about both sides of it. From a macro perspective, just trying to think through what is the impact to really jobs, right? How much is it going to slow the economy? And then what's the flow-through into the job market? And will it be significant? Will there be a significant impact there?

里克，我是馬特。感謝您的提問並加入我們。我想我可以開始並拿走這兩件東西。就其與經濟環境的關係而言，我想說，我們可能會考慮它的兩面性。從宏觀角度來看，只是想想想這對實際就業有什麼影響，對嗎？這會對經濟造成多大程度的放緩？那麼這對就業市場有何影響？它是否具有重大意義？那裡會產生重大影響嗎？

And obviously, if so, that could be felt through the broader economy and have a little bit bigger impact on the real estate sector. That's probably not our base case. Certainly here at KKR, we're not calling for a recession. We think growth will slow down to somewhere between 0% and 1% from a GDP perspective. So we are kind of watching the broader macro and unemployment pretty carefully.

顯然，如果是這樣，那麼這可能會對更廣泛的經濟產生影響，並對房地產行業產生更大的影響。這可能不是我們的基本情況。當然，在 KKR，我們不會預測經濟衰退。我們認為，從 GDP 角度來看，成長率將放緩至 0% 至 1% 之間。因此，我們正在非常仔細地關注更廣泛的宏觀經濟和失業問題。

I don't expect that to have a very big impact on real estate because values have obviously declined a lot already. And from a supply perspective, we're getting through the big supply wave. We all know construction starts are down across every property type, somewhere between 60% and 70%. I think that's why in our opening remarks, we make the comment about real estate is a little bit different position than other asset classes. But if -- certainly, if we're going to enter a recession and we see the unemployment rate go up, you're going to have impacts kind of broadly. But again, I think we're pretty well positioned for that.

我認為這不會對房地產產生很大影響，因為房地產價值顯然已經大幅下降。從供應角度來看，我們正在經歷巨大的供應浪潮。我們都知道，所有類型的房地產開工量都在下降，降幅在 60% 到 70% 之間。我認為這就是為什麼我們在開場白中對房地產的評論與其他資產類別略有不同。但如果——當然，如果我們進入經濟衰退，失業率上升，那麼就會受到廣泛的影響。但我再次認為我們已經做好了充分的準備。

Probably more concerned about what you're talking about and how it will impact individual properties. The two things that come to mind are some of the port markets for industrial especially on the West Coast, obviously, if you think about the slowdown in trade from China. So we're clearly watching that sector more. I don't think there's any one asset in our portfolio that we're particularly concerned about, but we have heightened just awareness of the potential market impact there.

可能更關心您所談論的內容以及它將如何影響個人財產。如果你考慮到中國貿易放緩，那麼你想到的兩件事顯然是一些工業港口市場，尤其是西海岸的一些港口市場。所以我們顯然更加關注該領域。我認為我們的投資組合中沒有任何一項資產讓我們特別擔心，但我們對其潛在的市場影響有了更高的認識。

The second is just around decision-making. In this kind of uncertain market, I think you could see decision-making slowdown, which can impact CapEx, it could impact leasing decisions. And so some of our assets are still in lease-up mode and are looking for larger tenants and just a little bit concerned that there's going to be a kind of a pause in that decision-making around some of these leasing. So those are really the two things I would say we're focused on.

第二個是關於決策。在這種不確定的市場中，我認為你可能會看到決策放緩，這可能會影響資本支出，也可能影響租賃決策。因此，我們的部分資產仍處於租賃模式，正在尋找更大的租戶，只是有點擔心圍繞這些租賃的決策會出現某種暫停。所以我想說這確實是我們關注的兩件事。

And I really appreciate that answer. It's very thoughtful, and I realize it's -- there's no easy answer to that. Do you mind circling back on the dividend policy? And I do want to acknowledge having asked the question about buying back stock for probably every quarter for ages that you guys were in the market this quarter, and I think that's constructive for shareholders. But can you talk a little bit about dividend policy in light of the ROE characteristics right now?

我真的很感謝這個回答。這是非常深思熟慮的，而且我意識到這個問題——沒有簡單的答案。您介意再談一下股利政策嗎？我確實想承認，我曾經問過關於回購股票的問題，因為你們本季進入市場已經很久了，我認為這對股東來說是有建設性的。但是您能否根據目前的 ROE 特徵談談股利政策？

Yes. Happy to. So I think on the dividend, when we initially cut it, we had a number of different scenarios in mind and a big part of that clearly was thinking through the REO and giving us time to just effectuate those business plans. There's been a lot of change since we initially set that dividend. But I think when we kind of net-net it all together, we still feel pretty comfortable where we set it.

是的。很開心。因此，我認為，關於股息，當我們最初削減股息時，我們考慮了許多不同的方案，其中很大一部分顯然是透過 REO 進行思考，並給我們時間來實現這些商業計劃。自從我們最初設定股息以來，已經發生了許多變化。但我認為，當我們把所有東西都整合在一起時，我們仍然會對我們所設定的位置感到非常滿意。

Of course, it's a Board decision, and we'll evaluate it every quarter. But I don't think we feel a lot of pressure right now to do anything different. And from where we sit, we have all that upside in the REO as well. And we know at some point in time, we're going to sell those assets, repatriate that capital. And Patrick mentioned in his section that if we did all that, we could reinvest that into new loans and have -- to drive earnings by $0.12 a share per quarter.

當然，這是董事會的決定，我們每季都會對其進行評估。但我認為我們現在並沒有感受到很大的壓力去採取任何不同的行動。從我們目前的情況來看，我們在 REO 中也擁有所有的優勢。我們知道，在某個時間點，我們將出售這些資產，匯回這些資本。帕特里克在他的部分中提到，如果我們做到了這一切，我們就可以將其再投資於新貸款，從而每季將每股收益提高 0.12 美元。

So even though our current earnings rate is right around that dividend level, we know there's like this embedded earnings power within the company that will unlock at some point in time. And keep in mind, that's -- we calculate those numbers on our existing cost basis. And we think we're going to do better than that as we implement these business plans. So that's a little bit how we're thinking about the dividend now.

因此，儘管我們目前的收益率正好處於股息水平附近，但我們知道公司內部蘊藏的獲利能力將在某個時間點釋放。請記住，我們是根據現有成本基礎計算這些數字的。我們相信，隨著這些商業計劃的實施，我們會做得更好。這就是我們現在對股利的看法。

You asked about the share buybacks. Similar to last quarter, we're -- I think we need to be balanced. The stock where it trades right now, it's very attractive. So you saw us buying it back, and we've got a long track record of buying back stock when we thought it was trading at attractive prices. It's very accretive to our book value per share. So I think we'll have to continue to evaluate that as an option for capital, especially kind of given where it is today.

您詢問了股票回購的情況。與上一季類似，我認為我們需要保持平衡。目前該股票的交易非常有吸引力。所以你看到我們把它買回來了，而且當我們認為股票交易價格具有吸引力時，我們也有回購股票的長期記錄。這對我們的每股帳面價值有很大的增值作用。因此我認為我們必須繼續評估它作為資本的一種選擇，特別是考慮到它目前的狀況。

But at the same time, and similar to like you saw in the first quarter, we need to invest in our portfolio as well. We need to make loans. We need to continue to diversify the portfolio from a vintage perspective. We talked about potentially adding Europe and CMBS to the portfolio. And I think it's important for the market to see us front-footed and active. And we think the market is pretty attractive from an investing perspective. So I think we need to continue to be kind of balanced as we think about allocation of capital across investing and share repurchases.

但同時，與您在第一季看到的情況類似，我們也需要對我們的投資組合進行投資。我們需要貸款。我們需要從復古的角度繼續實現投資組合多樣化。我們討論了將歐洲和 CMBS 添加到投資組合中的可能性。我認為讓市場看到我們的主動性和積極性非常重要。我們認為從投資角度來看這個市場相當有吸引力。因此，我認為我們在考慮投資和股票回購的資本分配時需要繼續保持平衡。

Tom Catherwood, BTIG.

湯姆·卡瑟伍德（Tom Catherwood），BTIG。

Maybe Matt or Patrick, you both mentioned Europe in your prepared remarks. I know this has been the target market for quite some time. What has to be done to start originating there? And do you expect to be active broadly across Europe? Or would it be more targeted to start?

也許是馬特或派崔克，你們都在準備好的演講中提到了歐洲。我知道這已經成為目標市場很長一段時間了。要從那裡開始，需要做什麼？您是否期望在整個歐洲廣泛開展活動？或者說一開始會更有針對性嗎？

Thanks, Tom. It's Matt. Yes, I can take that. It's -- we've been actively originating there for a couple of years now. And so I'd expect to close deals in the next quarter or 2. I mean we're quoting stuff. It's just a timing game at this point. Our focus there is really Western Europe and the UK. So I think that's really where kind of we've been targeting opportunities. So I think in the near term, we'd expect to add to the portfolio in Europe.

謝謝，湯姆。我是馬特。是的，我可以接受。我們已經在那裡積極開展了幾年了。因此我預計在下一季或第二季完成交易。我的意思是我們正在引用一些東西。目前這只是一個時間遊戲。我們的重點其實是西歐和英國。所以我認為這確實就是我們一直瞄準的機會。因此我認為，短期內我們可望增加歐洲的投資組合。

Appreciate that, Matt. And then obviously, it was an active quarter in 1Q for originations, and you mentioned the pipeline being strong as ever. But with debt now up to 3.9 times, do you see originations primarily being tied to repayments? And you mentioned, obviously, repayment activity tracking ahead of expectations. Or how much kind of more do you think you can push that leverage level with originations?

非常感謝，馬特。顯然，第一季對於發起而言是一個活躍的季度，您提到管道一如既往地強勁。但現在債務已高達 3.9 倍，您是否認為發起資金主要與還款掛鉤？您顯然提到了還款活動的追蹤超出了預期。或者您認為可以透過發起將槓桿水平提高到何種程度？

Tom, I'll take that question. It's Patrick. Yes, we were at 3.9 times end of the quarter. But as I said, we had pretty sizable repayments early in April. So on a spot basis, we're actually at 3.7 times. So we're at the midpoint. And part of that is trying to get a little bit ahead of some of these repayments. As Matt mentioned, feels like we're tracking ahead of schedule. Some of the repayments that we got in this quarter were deals that we were really forecasting to get repaid in 2026, and we saw an acceleration of those repayments.

湯姆，我來回答這個問題。我是派崔克。是的，本季末我們的比率是 3.9 倍。但正如我所說，我們在四月初償還了相當大一筆款項。因此，以現貨計算，我們實際上是 3.7 倍。所以我們處於中間點。其中一部分就是試圖提前償還部分款項。正如馬特所提到的，感覺我們正在提前完成計劃。我們在本季收到的一些還款是我們預計在 2026 年還款的交易，而且我們看到這些還款速度加快了。

So we'll be within the range. And sometimes, we're going to be towards the high end as we anticipate some of those repayments, but our target is still the same. But knowing that we've got a pretty good pipeline of repayments, we're going to be focused on the origination side and making sure that we're staying deployed and that we're maximizing earnings.

所以我們會處於範圍內。有時，由於我們預計會有部分償還，因此我們的還款金額會偏高，但我們的目標仍然是一樣的。但我們知道，我們擁有相當不錯的還款管道，我們將專注於發起方面，確保我們保持部署，並實現收益最大化。

And then just a follow-up, Patrick, on those repayments. Has your expectation or the pace of those been impacted at all by the tariffs? Or is it just too early to tell whether there's any link between kind of market dislocation and repayment activity?

然後派崔克，我們來跟進這些還款事宜。您的預期或步伐是否受到關稅的影響？或者現在判斷市場混亂和還款活動之間是否存在聯繫還為時過早？

I think it's a little early to tell. That said, there are a number of deals that we're aware of that are in the market seeking refinancing. As you recall, a lot of these loans when we initially originated them, there was typically some lease-up strategy involved. Many of those assets have now effectively stabilized. And so despite the fact that you've seen this volatility in the broader market, in the CRE market, we see a lot of liquidity.

我認為現在說這個還為時過早。儘管如此，據我們所知，市場上有許多交易正在尋求再融資。您還記得，我們最初發放的許多貸款通常都涉及某種租賃策略。其中許多資產目前已有效穩定下來。因此，儘管我們已經看到大盤出現波動，但在 CRE 市場，我們看到了大量的流動性。

And so while spreads may have backed up 10 basis points, 20 basis points, if you think about what those spreads were when we initially had those loans as a lease-up, they're still down and sponsors still have an opportunity to improve their cost of capital in this environment. So we very much see kind of a functioning market here. And early to tell whether a deal or two gets sort of pushed off because of this. But as of right now, at least in our near-term projections, we're not seeing a lot of impact.

因此，儘管利差可能回升了 10 個基點、20 個基點，但如果您想想我們最初將這些貸款作為租賃時的利差是多少，它們仍然處於下降趨勢，並且發起人仍然有機會在這種環境下改善其資本成本。因此，我們看到這裡的市場運作良好。而且現在還無法判斷是否有一兩筆交易會因此而被延後。但截至目前，至少在我們的近期預測中，我們還沒有看到太大的影響。

Jade Rahmani, KBW.

傑德·拉赫馬尼（Jade Rahmani），KBW。

This is actually Jason Sabshon, on for Jade. So first, it would be helpful to discuss what about the Raleigh multifamily that drove the downgrade. Is it a matter of basis, lease-up, operating costs, location or all these factors? It would just be helpful to get some more color.

這實際上是 Jason Sabshon，代表 Jade。因此，首先，討論一下導致羅利多戶型住宅評級下降的原因會很有幫助。這是基礎、租賃、營運成本、地點還是所有這些因素的問題？獲得更多顏色將會很有幫助。

Jason, its Matt. I can jump in. I think the downgrade has been on our watch list for a while, and now we're coming up on a maturity date. So that was really the reason for the downgrade from the 4 to the 5. I think the reason it's been on the watch list for a while is because we just haven't seen the ability to drive rents in this particular submarket. And this is a loan we made kind of at the peak of the market, right? This is, I think, a late first quarter, early second quarter '22 loan. So there's been obviously big value declines.

傑森，我是馬特。我可以跳進去。我認為降級已經在我們的關註名單上有一段時間了，現在我們即將到達到期日。所以這就是從 4 降級到 5 的真正原因。我認為它之所以一直被列入關註名單是因為我們還沒有看到它在這個特定的子市場推動租金上漲的能力。這是我們在市場高峰期發放的貸款，對嗎？我認為這是 2022 年第一季末、第二季初的貸款。因此價值顯然出現了大幅下降。

But in most of our portfolio on the multifamily side, and we've given these numbers in the past, we just saw a tremendous amount of rental growth. And in this particular pocket, we just haven't seen the same amount of that in terms of just being able to drive NOI higher. So it's really a function of that. I mean it's a good property. It's performing well. It just hasn't had that same push in the rental rate as we've seen in most other markets.

但在我們大部分的多戶型投資組合中，正如我們過去給出的這些數據，我們看到了巨大的租金成長。而在這個特定的領域，我們還沒有看到同樣數量的能夠提高 NOI 的情況。所以它確實是一個功能。我的意思是，這是一處好房產。它表現良好。只是它的租金沒有像我們在大多數其他市場看到的那樣上漲。

And then we've got a near-term maturity here. So we'll have to figure out exactly the go forward from here. And as we mentioned on the call, it could be a modification. We could go to title and kind of run the property ourselves, but we'll have to negotiate that with our borrower.

然後我們就迎來了近期的成熟期。所以我們必須弄清楚從現在開始該如何前進。正如我們在電話中提到的，這可能是一種修改。我們可以自己去取得產權並管理該房產，但我們必須與借款人協商。

And just on Life Science, over what time period do you think the capital is patient to wait -- is patient enough to wait for a pickup in leasing? And due to softness in the sector, would you be able to discuss the outlook for the risks?

就生命科學而言，您認為資本需要耐心等待多長時間—有足夠的耐心等待租賃的回升？由於該行業表現疲軟，您能否討論一下風險前景？

Yes. This is why we tried to give a little bit more information both in our prepared remarks and as well as added some detail in our presentation. Most of our exposure is kind of in these newer built, purpose-built assets that are really targeting larger tenants or big pharma, which we don't think is as susceptible as some of the cyclical issues that the sector is facing. Certainly a part of it, but maybe not as susceptible as some of the smaller kind of earlier stage companies. So we'd expect that to come back earlier.

是的。這就是為什麼我們試圖在準備好的發言中提供更多信息，並在演示中添加一些細節。我們大部分的投資都集中在這些新建的、專門建造的資產上，這些資產的目標客戶是較大的租戶或大型製藥公司，我們認為這些資產不像該行業面臨的一些週期性問題那樣容易受到影響。當然是其中的一部分，但可能不像一些規模較小的早期公司那麼容易受到影響。因此我們預計這一情況會提前恢復。

I think it's anybody's guess in terms of just at what point you really start to see a pickup in overall Life Science leasing. And a lot of that, I think, will depend on what happens with the tariff regime and what happens, therefore, to the overall economic environment that will certainly weigh on the overall sector as well. I think that's, generally speaking, how we're kind of thinking about it.

我認為，任何人都無法猜測什麼時候才能真正開始看到整體生命科學租賃的回升。我認為，這在很大程度上取決於關稅制度的變化，以及整體經濟環境的變化，這也肯定會對整個產業產生影響。我認為，一般來說，這就是我們對此的看法。

In terms of the 3-rated loans that you asked, we've modified a couple of those already and so kind of have dealt with our sponsors and getting them to a better spot. And then as I just mentioned, about half of the 3-rated loans, we have three assets that were construction loans. And so we still feel pretty good about those. Those are built now and are mostly built just in the lease-up period. But just given that they were new, the quality there is very high. And so we think it's just a matter of time before it attracts the right tenant.

就您詢問的 3 級貸款而言，我們已經修改了其中的幾個，並且已經與我們的贊助商進行了處理，並使他們處於更好的位置。正如我剛才提到的，在大約一半的 3 級貸款中，我們有三項資產是建築貸款。因此我們對此仍然感覺很好。這些都是現在建造的，而且大部分都是在租賃期內建造的。但考慮到它們是新品，品質就非常高。因此我們認為吸引合適的租戶只是時間問題。

Steve Delaney, Citizens Capital Markets.

史蒂夫‧德萊尼 (Steve Delaney)，公民資本市場。

So look, I applaud the buyback activity, of course, and it would seem it's even better today after the 15% or so decline after tariffs. But what I'm really intrigued by is if we're going to be on a lot of these calls in the next two weeks, and I don't think we're going to hear a lot of commercial mortgage REITs talking enthusiastically about new lending opportunities. It feels like we're still in more of a defensive mode, just in a broad sense.

所以，我當然對回購活動表示讚賞，而且在關稅之後下降了 15% 左右之後，今天的情況似乎更好。但我真正感興趣的是，如果我們在接下來的兩週內接到很多這樣的電話會議，我認為我們不會聽到很多商業抵押貸款房地產投資信託基金熱情地談論新的貸款機會。從廣義上講，我們感覺我們仍然處於防禦模式。

I'm just curious, Matt, as you guys look at sort of the menu of new opportunities, I guess first question is, what is different in the -- either the quality or the pricing, the return profile? If you look at today's opportunity set versus what you've maybe seen on average over the last couple of years, I'd love you to compare and contrast that, if you would, in terms of the new opportunities on the lending side.

我只是好奇，馬特，當你們查看新機會的菜單時，我想第一個問題是，品質、定價、回報概況有什麼不同？如果您將今天的機會與過去幾年的平均機會進行比較和對比，我希望您能夠就貸款方面的新機會進行比較和對比。

Sure, Steve. Thank you for the question. I think you have to start with basis. I think the biggest change right now is just the opportunity to lend at these much lower valuations. And you still have real estate values somewhere around or below replacement cost. And when we're lending at some discount to that, it just feels like this vintage should be very safe from just an overall basis perspective. Of course, that translates into cash flow and debt service coverage and other things. But the first thing I think about this vintage is really basis, and that will translate into this vintage and the safety of it could be quite strong. So that's probably the first thing.

當然，史蒂夫。謝謝你的提問。我認為你必須從基礎開始。我認為目前最大的變化就是有機會以較低的估值進行放款。而且您的房地產價值仍然在重置成本左右或以下。當我們以一定的折扣提供貸款時，從整體基礎角度來看，感覺這個年份應該是非常安全的。當然，這體現在現金流、債務償還能力和其他方面。但我首先想到的是這個年份的真正基礎，這將轉化為這個年份的安全性可能相當強。這可能是第一件事。

The second thing we're seeing is, there's less -- there's more opportunity in less transitional assets. And let me explain that. I think I mentioned this on maybe our last earnings call, if you think about what we were doing in '21 and '22, a lot of it was like lending on brand-new assets that had just been delivered in their initial lease-up period and a lot of that was multifamily. And we'd be lending at a 10% occupancy or 20% occupancy and providing that bridge to occupancy stabilization and burning off of concessions.

我們看到的第二件事是，過渡性資產越少，機會就越多。讓我解釋一下。我想我在上次財報電話會議上提到過這一點，如果你想想我們在 21 年和 22 年所做的事情，很多都是對剛剛在初始租賃期內交付的全新資產進行貸款，其中很多是多戶住宅。我們將以 10% 或 20% 的入住率提供貸款，並為入住率穩定和優惠政策的取消提供橋樑。

Fast forward to today, and we're lending on what I call, we went from kind of a transit lender to like an almost stabilized lender. We're lending on assets that are 90% leased and maybe there's a little bit of concession in there, but the vast majority of the cash flows are in place today. And all we're doing is providing our sponsors a bridge to a better capital markets environment and maybe a little bit lower interest rate environment. And as we all know, just with values down so much, I think many institutional owners just they don't want to sell right now. They hold out another year or two or three, they're going to get into this supply dynamic where they're back in the market raising rents pretty substantially and they can kind of dig themselves out of a basis in '21 that is just not very favorable today.

快進到今天，我們正在進行所謂的放貸，我們從一種過渡性放貸者轉變為一種幾乎穩定的放貸者。我們為 90％ 租賃的資產提供貸款，也許其中有一點優惠，但絕大多數現金流目前都已到位。我們所做的就是為我們的贊助商提供一座通往更好的資本市場環境甚至更低利率環境的橋樑。眾所周知，由於價值大幅下跌，我認為許多機構所有者現在不想出售。他們再堅持一兩年或三年，就會進入這種供應動態，回到市場，大幅提高租金，這樣他們就可以在 21 年擺脫目前不太有利的基礎。

So that's probably part of a big change in terms of the business plan that we're lending on. Locally here, and I don't know how long this will last, there's a big opportunity in sizable transactions, as we mentioned in the prepared remarks, with the CMBS market having widened much more than the loan market, we're seeing a lot of sponsors coming to us and $500 million loan, $1 billion loan, which should have been FASB or should be FASB issuance coming to us and saying, can you guys help with this because we don't want to -- we don't know what's going to happen tomorrow and the market is volatile in the CMBS market. So that's kind of a local opportunity that we're focused on right now. But I don't -- again, I think that, that market will heal and be more effective as we kind of progress through the year.

因此，這可能是我們所依據的商業計劃的重大變化的一部分。就我們當地而言，我不知道這種情況會持續多久，但正如我們在準備好的評論中提到的那樣，大規模交易中存在著巨大的機會，CMBS 市場比貸款市場擴大得多，我們看到很多贊助商來找我們，5 億美元的貸款，10 億美元的貸款，這些貸款應該是 FASB 或應該是 FASB 發行的，他們來找我們說，明天所以這是我們目前關注的一個本地機會。但我並不這麼認為——我再次認為，隨著時間的推移，市場將會恢復，並且更加有效。

And then lastly, I would just comment that one of the big changes in my mind from like pre-rate hike inflation pressures to today will be how the banks participate in the market. They've always been kind of loan on loan providers, but it is much more pronounced now in terms of just their willingness and their focus on putting some of their capital into these loan on loan facilities, just given how much more capital efficient is for them, how much safer it is for them to lend to other lenders than it is to make a direct mortgage loan.

最後，我想說的是，我認為從升息前的通膨壓力到今天的一個重大變化是銀行如何參與市場。他們一直都是貸款對貸款的提供者，但現在他們更願意並專注於將部分資本投入到這些貸款對貸款業務中，因為這對他們來說資本效率更高，對於他們來說，向其他貸款人放貸比直接提供抵押貸款更安全。

And I don't want to make it sound like they're not going to continue to lend on properties, but you are seeing that allocation shift more towards loan on loan facilities. So I think that will be -- on the financing side, I think that will be another -- we are seeing that as a kind of a meaningful shift from what we saw before.

我不想讓他們聽起來好像不會繼續提供房地產貸款，但你會看到，資金配置更多地轉向了貸款對貸款業務。所以我認為，在融資方面，我認為這將是另一個——我們認為這是與我們之前所見不同的有意義的轉變。

And are you seeing obviously, you have development-type borrowers who are out there, new projects, developing new projects and you make them -- there's either construction loans and maybe then you flip it into a bridge. But are you seeing new equity coming in from institutional buyers, where they're seeing projects where they are -- the potential value is much greater than where the rents are today and where the basis is. So I'm just curious, how much of your new financing is going in side-by-side with new equity into a project rather than you just refinancing the original developer?

您是否明顯看到，您有開發型借款人，他們有新項目，正在開發新項目，然後您為他們提供建築貸款，然後您可以將其轉變為橋樑。但是，您是否看到來自機構買家的新股權，他們所看到的項目的潛在價值遠大於當前的租金和基礎。所以我很好奇，你們的新融資中有多少是與新股權一起投入到專案中的，而不是僅僅為原來的開發商進行再融資？

Yes. Our pipeline and our activity is still heavily weighted towards refinance. I right now, it's around -- if you look at our pipeline, it's around 70% refinance, like 30%-ish acquisitions, and that will slow down a little bit just given the market volatility here since the tariff increases. But historically, that may have been 60% acquisitions and 40% refinance. So it's a little bit turned upside down there.

是的。我們的管道和活動仍然主要專注於再融資。我現在大約是——如果你看看我們的管道，大約有 70% 是再融資，30% 左右是收購，考慮到關稅上調後市場的波動，這個速度會稍微放緩。但從歷史上看，這可能是 60% 的收購和 40% 的再融資。所以那裡的情況有點顛倒了。

As it relates to like the construction side, I know you didn't ask this question directly, but it's probably somewhat relevant here. There's debt capital available. You can go get a construction loan. We we're making one right now. And in the fourth quarter, we did a big data center loan, you can get it, you can definitely access the financing markets for construction. And the challenge is the equity. I just don't think it pencils out very well right now. And now you've got a scenario where costs are increasing with tariffs. So it's going to get even more difficult. So I think when you talk about like the 60%, 70% decline in some of this construction, maybe early on, it was driven by debt and lack of availability, but now it's just the equity math doesn't work from a yield on cost perspective.

由於它與建築方面有關，我知道您沒有直接問這個問題，但它可能與此有一定關係。有可用的債務資本。你可以去申請建築貸款。我們現在正在製作一個。在第四季度，我們推出了一項大型資料中心貸款，您可以獲得貸款，您絕對可以進入建造融資市場。而挑戰就在於公平。我只是認為現在這個結果不太好。現在的情況是成本隨著關稅的增加而增加。所以事情會變得更加困難。因此，我認為，當您談到部分建築價格下降 60% 或 70% 時，也許在早期，這是由債務和缺乏可用性所致，但現在從成本收益率的角度來看，股權計算不起作用。

And just the final thing for me. Obviously, the tariffs kind of discussions kind of through a wrinkle into the stock market broadly and certainly, that hurt mortgage REITs in the last -- in the month of April for sure. Given that the stock as last night's closed $9.28, down about 15% as a result, I think, largely of tariffs. I mean, should we assume that if the buyback was attractive in the first quarter, it's even more attractive to you and your Board as you sit looking at the stock with a 9 handle or so?

對我來說這只是最後一件事。顯然，關稅之類的討論對股市產生了廣泛影響，並且肯定會對去年（即 4 月）的抵押貸款房地產投資信託基金造成損害。鑑於該股昨晚收盤價為 9.28 美元，下跌約 15%，我認為這主要是由於關稅。我的意思是，我們是否應該假設，如果回購在第一季很有吸引力，那麼當您和您的董事會以 9 左右的價格看著股票時，它對您和您的董事會來說就更有吸引力？

Yes. I mean similar to the question I asked earlier, I don't think our view has really changed that much. The stock has come down a little bit. So it's certainly more attractive from a buyback perspective. But we need to be balanced. And as we approach the market, we need to invest capital. We need to diversify the portfolio. But we certainly feel like we have ample liquidity right now. And so we'll take a balanced approach to allocating that capital across the buybacks and the new originations.

是的。我的意思是，與我之前提出的問題類似，我認為我們的觀點並沒有太大的改變。股票已經稍微下跌了一點。因此從回購的角度來看，它肯定更具吸引力。但我們需要保持平衡。當我們進入市場時，我們需要投入資金。我們需要實現投資組合多元化。但我們確實感覺現在我們有充足的流動性。因此，我們將採取平衡的方式在回購和新發行之間分配資本。

Don Fandetti, Wells Fargo.

富國銀行的唐‧范德蒂 (Don Fandetti)。

Yes. With repayments coming in a little bit higher, how are you feeling about net portfolio growth? I know you're sort of more on offense now. Do you think that you're in a situation where every quarter through '25, you're seeing a little bit of portfolio growth?

是的。隨著還款金額略有增加，您對淨投資組合成長有何感覺？我知道你現在有點更具攻擊性。您是否認為，到 25 年，您的投資組合每季都會有一點成長？

Don, its Patrick. I can take that. I think that as we think about the rest of the year, there's probably some incremental growth that we can have, but we're getting pretty close to, I think, what's our target size when you factor in our leverage targets, the capital that we have here. I think just what you'll see, though, is us looking to, as we've said, kind of match those repayments. So if those repayments start to kick up even more, we'll accelerate on the origination front. But I don't think there's a lot a -- lot more incremental sizes we're kind of approaching our upper limit of our target leverage.

唐，我是派崔克。我可以接受。我認為，當我們考慮今年剩餘時間時，我們可能會實現一些增量成長，但我認為，當考慮到我們的槓桿目標和我們現有的資本時，我們已經非常接近我們的目標規模。我想，您會看到，正如我們所說的，我們正在尋求匹配這些償還金額。因此，如果還款金額開始進一步增加，我們將加快還款速度。但我不認為我們會有太多的增量規模，我們正在接近目標槓桿的上限。

And then on some of the originations, the multifamily this quarter, it looked like the spreads were in the 230 basis range. Are those sort of -- what are the leverage returns on those loans? And are those examples of that more stabilized type lending you're seeing?

然後，對於本季度的一些多戶型項目來說，利差似乎在 230 個基點的範圍內。這些是──這些貸款的槓桿回報是多少？您所看到的是更穩定類型的貸款的例子嗎？

Yes, Don, it's Matt. I can jump in. I think our weighted average spread was a little bit more in that like 277. The market got as tight as that -- probably that number you were mentioning like 230, 240 area, again, on those mostly stabilized leased multifamily assets. And those -- at that level, the -- our back leverage had declined -- spreads have declined there as well, pre-tariffs. But we were on the tightest end, probably like 11% to 12% type of IRRs there on a gross basis.

是的，唐，我是馬特。我可以跳進去。我認為我們的加權平均利差稍微大一點，例如 277。市場變得如此緊張——可能您提到的數字就像 230、240 區域一樣，同樣適用於那些大多數穩定的租賃多戶型資產。在那個水準上，我們的後備槓桿已經下降，關稅前的利差也已經下降。但我們處於最緊張的一端，總體而言，內部報酬率大概在 11% 到 12% 之間。

Most of the stuff we're doing is kind of north of there, but you're always -- there's always a range, right, as you kind of portfolio construct and deal with different risk profiles in the market. But I'd say, most of what we're getting right now is centered around that 12% to kind of 13% IRR when you start to think about embedding the fees and things like that.

我們所做的大部分工作都在某種程度上處於這個範圍之內，但你總是——總是有一個範圍，對吧，因為你建立了投資組合併處理市場上不同的風險狀況。但我想說，當你開始考慮嵌入費用和諸如此類的東西時，我們現在得到的大部分都集中在 12% 到 13% 的 IRR 上。

And then I just wanted to go back on Life Science a bit. I appreciate the disclosure. I guess is this a situation where you could see like a significant amount of these loans migrate from 3 to 4? And how do you think about values on these assets? They're probably a little more unique than a multifamily or industrial. I mean, do you expect -- is it harder to kind of triangulate value on these types of assets?

然後我只是想稍微回顧一下生命科學。我對此披露表示感謝。我想，在這種情況下，您是否會看到大量貸款從 3 轉移到 4？您如何看待這些資產的價值？它們可能比多戶住宅或工業住宅更獨特一些。我的意思是，您是否預計——對這些類型的資產進行三角價值測量會更困難嗎？

Yes. I mean just given the lease profile isn't as granular, right, on the multifamily side, certainly, there's more of a timing element to thinking about value. And it's not our expectation right now that these would migrate from 3 to 4 because either one has already been kind of modified and kind of adjusted or like I said, like just the quality of the assets are there for the most part, our sponsorship is very strong.

是的。我的意思是，鑑於租賃情況不是那麼詳細，在多戶住宅方面，當然，考慮價值時會更多地考慮時間因素。我們目前並不期望這些會從 3 遷移到 4，因為要么其中一個已經被修改和調整，要么就像我說的那樣，資產的品質在很大程度上是存在的，我們的贊助非常強大。

And if you look at these locations, we're kind of like main and main in terms of where you want to be in some of these markets, and we're in Cambridge, we're in Seaport in South San Francisco. So it's not -- certainly not our expectation right now that we could go from a 3 to a 4 or put this on the watch list, but they still need to get leased up. So there's risk there, and there's some level of uncertainty, especially when you kind of sprinkle in this type of economic environment that we're in.

如果你看看這些地點，你會發現，就你想進入的某些市場而言，我們有點像主要的和主要的，我們在劍橋，我們在南舊金山的海港。所以，我們現在當然不期望從 3 升到 4 或將其列入觀察名單，但它們仍然需要租賃。因此，這其中存在風險，也存在一定程度的不確定性，尤其是當我們處於這種經濟環境時。

This concludes our question-and-answer session. I would like to turn the conference back over to Jack Switala for closing remarks.

我們的問答環節到此結束。我想將會議交還給傑克‧斯威塔拉 (Jack Switala) 作閉幕發言。

Well, great. Thanks, operator, and thanks, everyone, for joining today. Please reach out to me or the team here if you have any questions. Take care.

嗯，太好了。謝謝接線生，也謝謝大家今天的參與。如果您有任何疑問，請聯絡我或這裡的團隊。小心。

The conference has now concluded. Thank you for attending today's presentation. You may now disconnect.

會議現已結束。感謝您參加今天的演講。您現在可以斷開連線。