KKR Real Estate Finance Trust Inc (KREF) 2024 Q3 法說會逐字稿

Good morning, and welcome to the KKR Real Estate Finance Trust, Inc., third quarter 2024 financial results conference call. (Operator Instructions) Please note, this event is being recorded.

早安，歡迎參加 KKR 房地產金融信託公司 2024 年第三季財務業績電話會議。（操作員說明）請注意，正在記錄此事件。

I would now like to turn the conference over to Jack Switala.

我現在想把會議交給傑克·斯維塔拉。

Great. Thanks, operator, and welcome to the KKR Real Estate Finance Trust earnings call for the third quarter of 2024. As the operator mentioned, this is Jack Switala. This morning, I'm joined on the call by our CEO, Matt Salem; our President and COO, Patrick Mattson; and our CFO, Kendra Decious.

偉大的。感謝營運商，歡迎參加 KKR 房地產金融信託 2024 年第三季財報電話會議。正如接線員所提到的，我是 Jack Switala。今天早上，我們的執行長馬特塞勒姆 (Matt Salem) 加入了我的電話會議。我們的總裁兼營運長 Patrick Mattson；以及我們的財務長 Kendra Decious。

I'd like to remind everyone that we will refer to certain non-GAAP financial measures on the call, which are reconciled to GAAP figures in our earnings release and in the supplementary presentation, both of which are available on the Investor Relations portion of our website. This call will also contain certain forward-looking statements, which do not guarantee future events or performance. Please refer to our most recently filed 10-Q for cautionary factors related to these statements.

我想提醒大家，我們將在電話會議上提及某些非GAAP 財務指標，這些指標與我們的收益發布和補充演示文稿中的GAAP 數據進行了核對，這兩者都可以在我們的投資者關係部分找到。本次電話會議也將包含某些前瞻性陳述，這些陳述不保證未來的事件或表現。請參閱我們最近提交的 10-Q，以了解與這些聲明相關的警示因素。

Before I turn the call over to Matt, I'll provide a brief recap of our results. For the third quarter of 2024, we reported GAAP net loss of negative $13 million or negative $0.19 per share, driven by a CECL allowance increase of $0.52 per share, following the additional downgrade of two loans. As a result, book value per share decreased 2.6% quarter over quarter to $14.84 per share as of September 30, 2024. Distributable earnings this quarter were $25.9 million or $0.37 per share relative to our Q3 $0.25 per share dividend.

在將電話轉給馬特之前，我將簡要回顧一下我們的結果。2024 年第三季度，我們報告 GAAP 淨虧損為負 1,300 萬美元，即每股負 0.19 美元，原因是在兩筆貸款額外降級後，CECL 準備金增加了每股 0.52 美元。因此，截至 2024 年 9 月 30 日，每股帳面價值季減 2.6%，至每股 14.84 美元。本季可分配收益為 2,590 萬美元，即每股 0.37 美元，而第三季股利為每股 0.25 美元。

With that, I'd now like to turn the call over to Matt.

有了這個，我現在想把電話轉給馬特。

Thank you, Jack. Good morning, everyone, and thank you for joining our call today.

謝謝你，傑克。大家早安，感謝您今天加入我們的電話會議。

Before going into third quarter results, I'd like to spend some time on a market update. As we enter an interest rate cut cycle, there's increased confidence in growing consensus that lower interest rates will provide tailwinds for commercial real estate property values.

在討論第三季業績之前，我想花一些時間了解市場最新情況。隨著我們進入降息週期，人們越來越有信心降低利率將為商業房地產價值提供動力。

We are seeing improved transaction volumes within our own real estate credit pipeline, which currently averages approximately $20 billion a week, up 40% from the beginning of the year. And we have strong conviction that there is a significant lending opportunity ahead of us.

我們看到我們自己的房地產信貸管道內的交易量有所改善，目前平均每週約為 200 億美元，比年初增長了 40%。我們堅信，我們面前有一個重要的貸款機會。

From a KKR Real Estate equity perspective, 2024 has been our most active year investing since inception with $4.5 billion year-to-date of equity invested in the United States. Within commercial real estate lending, we've seen US banks continue to shift their preference from direct mortgage origination to financing alternative lenders through loan-on-loan facilities.

從 KKR Real Estate 股權角度來看，2024 年是我們自成立以來投資最活躍的一年，今年迄今在美國的股權投資額達 45 億美元。在商業房地產貸款中，我們看到美國銀行繼續將其偏好從直接抵押貸款發放轉向透過貸款貸款設施為替代貸款機構提供融資。

Given the more efficient capital treatment of loan-on-loan facilities, we believe this will continue. Banks will continue to lend, but our expectation is that their market share will decrease from their historical average of 40%. This should create incremental lending opportunities across non-bank lenders and CMBS measured in the hundreds of billions.

鑑於貸款貸款設施的資本處理更加有效，我們相信這種情況將持續下去。銀行將繼續放貸，但我們預計它們的市場份額將從 40% 的歷史平均值下降。這將為非銀行貸款機構和 CMBS 創造數千億的增量貸款機會。

Turning to KREF. We've reached a point where we believe we have dealt with the majority of our watch list and have ample liquidity. Therefore, as we receive future repayments, we will look to actively reinvest that capital and ramp up originations. As part of our investment allocation, we will also evaluate share repurchases. As a reminder, KREF has bought back nearly $100 million of stock since inception.

轉向 KREF。我們相信我們已經處理了大部分觀察名單並擁有充足的流動性。因此，當我們收到未來的還款時，我們將尋求積極地再投資該資本並增加資金來源。作為我們投資配置的一部分，我們也將評估股票回購。提醒一下，KREF 自成立以來已回購了近 1 億美元的股票。

Turning now to KREF's third quarter results. This quarter represents another significant step forward in addressing our watch list in a proactive and transparent way. As we mentioned on our last call, we've been focused on resolving our last four-rated life science loan, and we are in advanced discussions with our borrower and have accordingly increased our reserves.

現在轉向 KREF 第三季業績。本季代表著我們在以主動和透明的方式處理觀察名單方面又向前邁出了重要一步。正如我們在上次電話會議中提到的，我們一直致力於解決最後一筆四級生命科學貸款，我們正在與借款人進行深入討論，並相應增加了我們的準備金。

In addition, we transitioned one of our four-rated multifamily loans to a five rating. As a whole, we still feel very confident about our multifamily exposure. But as we have messaged previously, we will have some noise in that sector over time.

此外，我們將其中一項四級多戶貸款評級轉變為五級。總的來說，我們對我們的多戶型投資仍然非常有信心。但正如我們之前所傳達的訊息，隨著時間的推移，我們將在該領域產生一些噪音。

With those adjustments, book value per share this quarter declined to $14.84 per share, down 2.6% compared to the prior quarter. Importantly, our four-rated loans now represent only 3% of our total portfolio, the lowest since the fourth quarter of 2019.

經過這些調整，本季每股帳面價值下降至每股 14.84 美元，比上一季下降 2.6%。重要的是，我們的四級貸款目前僅占我們總投資組合的 3%，是自 2019 年第四季以來的最低水準。

KREF reported distributable earnings prior to realized losses of $0.40, covering our $0.25 dividend. While lower SOFR and our REO portfolio will impact earnings, we expect that DE ex-losses will continue to be higher than our dividend as we head into 2025.

KREF 公佈的已實現虧損之前的可分配收益為 0.40 美元，涵蓋了我們 0.25 美元的股息。雖然較低的 SOFR 和我們的 REO 投資組合將影響收益，但我們預計，進入 2025 年，DE 扣除虧損將繼續高於我們的股息。

In the third quarter, we received $290 million in loan repayments compared to $55 million in fundings with full repayments across four loans, including multifamily, single-family rental, and an office loan secured by a property located in Oakland, California.

第三季度，我們收到了2.9 億美元的貸款償還額，而四項貸款的全額償還額為5500 萬美元，其中包括多戶型貸款、單戶型租賃貸款以及由加州奧克蘭的一處房產擔保的辦公室貸款。

In addition to this, post quarter end, we sold a $138 million office loan at par. Repayments have now exceeded fundings in five of the last six quarters. Additionally, future funding obligations are now reduced to 8% of the funded portfolio. Year-to-date, we have received over $1 billion in repayments compared to our original expectation of $1 billion for the full year.

除此之外，在季度末，我們以面額出售了 1.38 億美元的辦公室貸款。過去六個季度中有五個季度的還款額已超過融資額。此外，未來的融資義務現已減少至融資投資組合的 8%。今年迄今為止，我們已收到超過 10 億美元的還款，而我們最初的全年預期為 10 億美元。

KREF as an externally managed vehicle benefits from access to resources and relationships from KKR's global platform. We are fully integrated into KKR's broader real estate business, which has assets under management of approximately $75 billion. This integration has been instrumental as we are able to leverage the resources and capabilities of our team of approximately 140 professionals with a reputation as a best-in-class investor and solutions provider.

KREF 作為外部管理工具，受益於 KKR 全球平台的資源和關係。我們已完全融入 KKR 更廣泛的房地產業務，該業務管理的資產約為 750 億美元。這種整合非常有用，因為我們能夠利用我們約 140 名專業人員組成的團隊的資源和能力，該團隊享有一流的投資者和解決方案提供者的聲譽。

Within real estate credit, we invest a broad range of capital across the risk-reward spectrum, including bank, insurance, and transitional capital. And we've been actively investing this capital throughout the cycle. Additionally, our dedicated K-Star Asset Management platform with over 55 people across loan asset management, special servicing and REO has a portfolio of over $33 billion in loans and is named Special Servicer on an additional $46 billion of CMBS.

在房地產信貸領域，我們投資風險回報範圍廣泛的資本，包括銀行、保險和過渡資本。我們在整個週期中一直積極投資這筆資金。此外，我們專門的K-Star 資產管理平台在貸款資產管理、特殊服務和REO 領域擁有超過55 名人員，擁有超過330 億美元的貸款組合，並在另外460 億美元的CMBS 上被命名為「特殊服務商」。

Overall, we believe we have been proactive and transparent in managing our portfolio and feel confident in how the company is positioned. We are primarily focused on two things as we round out the year and turn the calendar.

總體而言，我們相信我們在管理我們的投資組合方面一直積極且透明，並對公司的定位充滿信心。當我們結束這一年並翻閱日曆時，我們主要關注兩件事。

First, maintain our current portfolio size by reinvesting repayments into this attractive vintage of real estate credit. Second, optimize our REO portfolio. As a reminder, as we repatriate our equity in the REO portfolio, we believe we can generate an additional $0.12 per share in distributable earnings per quarter. With ample liquidity, stronger than expected repayments as well as our reduced leverage ratio, we are excited about the opportunity ahead.

首先，透過將還款再投資到這個有吸引力的房地產信貸時期來維持我們當前的投資組合規模。二是優化REO組合。提醒一下，當我們匯回 REO 投資組合中的股權時，我們相信每季可額外產生每股 0.12 美元的可分配收益。憑藉著充足的流動性、強於預期的還款以及降低的槓桿率，我們對未來的機會感到興奮。

With that, I'll hand the call over to Patrick.

這樣，我就把電話轉給派崔克。

Thanks, Matt. Good morning, everyone. On the liability side, with the assistance of the KKR Capital Markets team, we have built best-in-class diversified financing with financing capacity totaling $8.3 billion, including $3 billion of undrawn capacity. We continue to maintain high levels of liquidity with $638 million of availability at quarter end, including $109 million of cash on hand and $475 million of undrawn revolver capacity.

謝謝，馬特。大家早安。在負債方面，在KKR資本市場團隊的協助下，我們建立了一流的多元化融資，融資能力總計83億美元，其中未動用能力30億美元。我們繼續保持高水準的流動性，季度末可用資金為 6.38 億美元，其中包括 1.09 億美元的手頭現金和 4.75 億美元的未提取左輪手槍容量。

79% of our financing continues to be fully non-mark-to-market and the remaining balance is mark-to-credit only. KREF has no final facility maturities until 2026 and no corporate debt due until 2027. The composition of KREF's financing structure remains a true differentiator and has helped us navigate a challenged real estate market.

我們 79% 的融資仍完全不以市價計價，其餘餘額僅以信用計價。KREF 在 2026 年之前沒有最終貸款到期，並且在 2027 年之前沒有到期的公司債務。KREF 融資結構的組成仍然是真正的差異化因素，幫助我們應對充滿挑戰的房地產市場。

Turning to our office loan exposure. We've had some positive developments. During the quarter, we received a final repayment on a loan secured by an office property located in Oakland, California. In addition, subsequent to quarter end, we sold a $138 million office loan at par, secured by a property located in Dallas, Texas that we originated in December 2021.

轉向我們的辦公室貸款風險。我們已經取得了一些積極的進展。在本季度，我們收到了由位於加州奧克蘭的一處辦公物業擔保的貸款的最終還款。此外，在季度末後，我們以面值出售了一筆 1.38 億美元的辦公貸款，該貸款由我們於 2021 年 12 月發起的位於德克薩斯州達拉斯的一處房產作為抵押。

On a pro forma basis, office now represents approximately 18% of our loan portfolio. Our remaining risk-rated three office assets benefit from a weighted average occupancy of 85% and a weighted average lease remaining term of 10.4 years.

據預計，辦公室目前約占我們貸款組合的 18%。我們剩餘的三個風險評級辦公資產受益於 85% 的加權平均入住率和 10.4 年的加權平均租賃剩餘期限。

Moving to our CECL allowance and our watch list portfolio. Similar to last quarter, there were no new additions to the watch list. However, we downgraded two of the previously risk-rated four loans, including a life science asset located in the Bay Area and a multifamily asset located in West Hollywood.

轉向我們的 CECL 津貼和我們的觀察名單投資組合。與上季類似，觀察名單中沒有新成員。然而，我們下調了先前風險評級的四筆貸款中的兩筆，包括位於灣區的生命科學資產和位於西好萊塢的多戶資產。

Related to these downgrades, the CECL reserve increased by $36 million or $0.52 per share. Across our risk-rated five loans, the weighted average CECL reserve represents approximately 25% of the outstanding principal balance. The remainder of the loan portfolio remains stable with over 90% of our portfolio risk-rated three or better.

與這些降級相關，CECL 準備金增加了 3,600 萬美元，即每股 0.52 美元。在我們風險評級的五筆貸款中，加權平均 CECL 準備金約佔未償本金餘額的 25%。貸款組合的其餘部分保持穩定，超過 90% 的投資組合風險評級為 3 或更高。

Looking more closely at our life science loan. This loan is collateralized by a property located in San Carlos, California that was renovated in 2023 to Class A life science standards. We're in the final stages of a modification with the sponsor, which we expect to conclude in Q4 '24, at which point we expect our reserve to translate to a realized loss.

更仔細地審視我們的生命科學貸款。這筆貸款由位於加州聖卡洛斯的一處房產作為抵押，該房產於 2023 年按照 A 級生命科學標準進行了翻修。我們正處於與贊助商進行修改的最後階段，我們預計將在 24 年第 4 季結束，屆時我們預計我們的儲備金將轉化為已實現的損失。

While we generally expect the lower rate environment to improve the outlook for cyclically challenged multifamily assets, our second downgrade this quarter is a multifamily loan secured by a 37-unit Class A luxury rental located in West Hollywood, California. This particular loan has been on the watch list since Q4 '22 and we're exploring several paths to maximize value, including a potential foreclosure and condo sell-out.

雖然我們普遍預計較低的利率環境將改善面臨週期性挑戰的多戶型資產的前景，但我們本季度的第二次降級是由位於加利福尼亞州西好萊塢的37 套A 級豪華出租房屋擔保的多戶型貸款。這筆特殊貸款自 22 年第 4 季以來一直在觀察名單上，我們正​​在探索幾種最大化價值的途徑，包括潛在的止贖和公寓出售。

Repayments have been progressing slightly better than forecasted, driving further deleveraging. As of Q3, the debt-to-equity ratio is 1.8 times and the look-through leverage ratio is 3.8 times, an improvement from Q2. While it's always difficult to forecast the precise timing of repayments, and there can be quarter-to-quarter fluctuations, we expect repayment activity to continue to increase with 2025 exceeding 2024 repayment levels.

還款進展略好於預期，推動進一步去槓桿化。截至三季度，負債股本比率為1.8倍，透視槓桿比率為3.8倍，較二季度有所改善。雖然準確的還款時間總是很難預測，而且可能存在季度波動，但我們預計還款活動將繼續增加，2025 年的還款水準將超過 2024 年。

With leverage in our target zone, meaningful progress on the watch list and strong levels of liquidity, additional repayments in excess of future funding needs will be redeployed into new loan originations. We're engaging the market to quote new KREF loans and anticipate 2025 will be an active origination year.

隨著我們目標區域的槓桿率、觀察名單上的有意義的進展以及強勁的流動性水平，超過未來資金需求的額外還款將被重新部署到新的貸款發放中。我們正在參與市場對新的 KREF 貸款進行報價，並預計 2025 年將是一個活躍的發放年。

As Matt noted on last quarter's call, we continue to believe that while we are not out of the woods yet, we are on the edge of the woods. And as a management team, we remain excited about our business and momentum. We have never felt better about our team and the market position of the real estate credit platform and believe we have a lot of opportunity ahead of us given the market dynamics.

正如馬特在上個季度的電話會議中指出的那樣，我們仍然相信，雖然我們尚未走出困境，但我們正處於困境的邊緣。作為管理團隊，我們對我們的業務和發展勢頭仍然感到興奮。我們對我們的團隊和房地產信貸平台的市場地位感到前所未有的好，並相信鑑於市場動態，我們面前有很多機會。

Thank you again for joining us this morning. And now we're happy to take your questions.

再次感謝您今天早上加入我們。現在我們很高興回答您的問題。

(Operator Instructions) Rick Shane, JPMorgan.

（操作員指令）Rick Shane，摩根大通。

Given what you're describing in terms of the operating environment in a little bit more clarity, both in terms of loan values and property values, can you give us a sense of what's happening in terms of price discovery? Are we starting to see expectations between bid and offer narrow? And where is that narrowing occurring with sort of within your range of expectations?

鑑於您在貸款價值和財產價值方面更清晰地描述了營運環境，您能否讓我們了解價格發現方面正在發生的情況？我們是否開始看到出價和報價之間的預期縮小？在您的預期範圍內，這種縮小發生在哪裡？

Hi, Rick, thank you for the questions and for joining the call. It's Matt. I can take that question. Yeah, I think you are seeing transaction volumes pick-up across the industry. And if you look at our own portfolio, we track not only -- or our own pipeline, excuse me, we track not only the weekly activity coming through it, but the percent of that activity that's acquisition-oriented versus refinance-oriented.

嗨，瑞克，感謝您提出問題並參加電話會議。是馬特。我可以回答這個問題。是的，我認為整個行業的交易量都在增加。如果你看看我們自己的投資組合，我們不僅追蹤——或者我們自己的管道，對不起，我們不僅追蹤每週的活動，而且追蹤以收購為導向的活動與以再融資為導向的活動的百分比。

Last year, we bottomed out around 10% of our pipeline on a weekly basis was in acquisitions. That's up into, call it, 20%-plus today. Historically, that's averaged closer to 50%. So we're still below certainly a normal operating environment, but clearly picking up off kind of off the bottom, which is what you'd expect.

去年，我們觸底反彈，每週約有 10% 的管道用於收購。今天，這個數字已經上升了 20% 以上。從歷史上看，這一比例平均接近 50%。因此，我們仍然低於正常的營運環境，但顯然已經從底部開始回升，這正是您所期望的。

I think there's a lot of transparency in the market today around values, especially in the on favor -- in favored asset classes. And as we mentioned on the call, for instance, from a KKR Real Estate equity perspective, this has been our most active year-to-date acquiring assets. And certainly, there's been competition in those processes.

我認為當今市場在價值方面有很大的透明度，尤其是在受青睞的資產類別中。正如我們在電話會議上提到的，例如，從 KKR 房地產股權的角度來看，這是我們今年迄今為止最活躍的收購資產。當然，這些流程中存在競爭。

And so, whether we're thinking about it from our equity or within our own pipeline and our clients, like we're seeing a lot of transactions predominantly focused in multifamily, industrial, student housing, some of the assets that have the more identifiable long-term positive trends, obviously, versus office. And I think values are settling in kind of around where we would expect. So I don't think we have a very contrarian view to where the market is valuing real estate today.

因此，無論我們是從我們的股權還是從我們自己的管道和客戶的角度來考慮這個問題，我們都看到很多交易主要集中在多戶住宅、工業住宅、學生宿舍，以及一些具有更可識別性的資產。我認為價值觀正在以我們預期的方式穩定下來。因此，我認為我們對當今市場對房地產的估值並沒有非常相反的看法。

And the big question in my mind over the last year has not been where are the buyers. I think it's been where are the sellers? And do the sellers -- are they -- can they hold out on an existing financing? And do they have time to wait for values to settle down and cap rates to potentially come in a little bit. And I think you're starting to see that gap narrow as the cost of capital has come down a little bit.

去年我心中最大的問題並不是買家在哪裡。我想賣家在哪裡？賣家——他們——能堅持現有的融資嗎？他們是否有時間等待價值穩定下來並且資本化率可能會下降。我認為隨著資本成本略有下降，你會開始看到差距縮小。

I think we've experienced cap rates coming down across property types over the course of the last couple of quarters as the rate complex has cleared up. And so, this just feels like it's part of the normal reset within real estate. And our expectation is that 2025 will look like a much more normal year in terms of acquisitions and overall transaction volumes.

我認為，在過去幾個季度中，隨著利率複合體的清理，我們經歷了各種房地產類型的資本化率下降。因此，這感覺就像是房地產正常重置的一部分。我們的預期是，就收購和整體交易量而言，2025 年將是更正常的一年。

Got it. Okay, helpful. And then the other question, and you may have said this and I might have missed it, but can you tell us what the quarterly impact on distributable earnings is from loans on cost recovery?

知道了。好的，有幫助。然後是另一個問題，你可能已經說過了，我可能錯過了，但是你能告訴我們成本回收貸款對可分配收益的季度影響是什麼嗎？

Hi, Rick, it's Kendra. Thanks for the question. So for the two new loans that were downgraded to five, there was a movement of about $0.02 per share of interest income out of Q3. Besides that, there were no other changes in run rate interest income.

嗨，瑞克，我是肯德拉。謝謝你的提問。因此，對於降級為 5 級的兩筆新貸款，第三季的利息收入每股變動約 0.02 美元。除此之外，運行利率利息收入沒有其他變動。

Stephen Laws, Raymond James.

史蒂芬勞斯，雷蒙德詹姆斯。

Hi, good morning. Matt, kind of curious, as you turn the origination pipeline back on, where are you going to be focused? I mean, clearly, banks have pulled back, and so there's a void of construction financing granted it doesn't get a lot of capital off the door and there's unfunded commitments associated with that. It seems like the market is still really competitive for cash flowing multi, especially from CLO players. So can you talk about kind of how you expect the pipeline to build and where your focus is going to be as you redeploy capital?

嗨，早安。馬特，有點好奇，當你重新打開原始管道時，你將把注意力集中在哪裡？我的意思是，很明顯，銀行已經撤回資金，因此建設融資出現了空白，因為它沒有獲得大量資金，而且與之相關的承諾也沒有資金支持。對於現金流充足的多方而言，市場似乎仍然具有真正的競爭力，尤其是來自 CLO 參與者。那麼您能否談談您期望如何建造管道以及在重新部署資本時您的重點將放在哪裡？

Thank you for the question, Stephen. Sure, I can take that one. First of all, I don't think it's going to be too different from what we've done in the past. We've always been thematic investors and trying to leverage a lot of the information we have on the equity side of the business where we own real estate. And so I think that continues to lead us down the path of multifamily, industrial, student housing, et cetera.

謝謝你的提問，史蒂芬。當然，我可以接受那個。首先，我認為這與我們過去所做的不會有太大不同。我們一直是主題投資者，並試圖利用我們擁有的房地產企業股權方面的大量資訊。因此，我認為這將繼續引領我們走上多戶住宅、工業住宅、學生住宅等道路。

Certainly, on the newer front, there's probably two areas that we're actively looking at. One would be data centers, especially hyperscale construction that are net leased. There's a lot of that opportunity in the market today.

當然，在新的方面，我們可能正在積極關注兩個領域。其中之一是資料中心，尤其是淨租賃的超大規模建築。如今市場上有許多這樣的機會。

As you mentioned that it's not a perfect product for KREF just given the future funding associated with it, but dollars could get into the ground relatively quickly on that construction project -- on those type of construction projects. So an area we're certainly looking at.

正如您所提到的，考慮到與之相關的未來資金，這對於 KREF 來說並不是一個完美的產品，但美元可能會相對較快地進入該建設項目——此類建設項目。所以我們肯定會關注這個領域。

And then the second one I would identify, and I think we mentioned this on the last call, is Europe. And we've built out the team there over the last couple of years and are actively lending in that market. So I think the opportunity for us to really go to where we see relative value from Western Europe all the way to the United States will be interesting.

然後我要指出的第二個，我想我們在上次電話會議中提到了這一點，那就是歐洲。過去幾年我們在那裡建立了團隊，並積極在該市場提供貸款。因此，我認為我們有機會真正去那些我們看到從西歐一直到美國的相對價值的地方，這將是很有趣的。

And certainly, that's a market where we've had some success over the course of the last year or two investing transitional type of capital. So I'm hoping that that market continues to offer those type of opportunities and we could potentially have some investing in that new -- in a new market for us as well.

當然，在過去一兩年投資過渡類型資本的過程中，我們在這個市場上取得了一些成功。因此，我希望該市場繼續提供此類機會，我們也可能對這個新市場進行一些投資。

Right. And to follow-up on your comments in the prepared remarks on note-on-note financing, can you talk a little bit more about that? Do you already have financing providers lined up and you kind of know the parameters of what they're willing to do or do you originate the loan first and then go find those note-on-note providers later? And then what type of spread are you getting on your return versus the note-on-note provider? And maybe where are they attaching?

正確的。為了跟進您在準備好的有關票據融資的評論中的評論，您能否再多談談這一點？您是否已經安排了融資提供者，並且您知道他們願意做什麼的參數，還是您先發放貸款，然後再去找那些單據提供者？那麼，與紙上紙條提供者相比，您的回報有何類型的利差？也許它們附著在哪裡？

Yeah. Let me -- Stephen, it's Matt again. Let me start and then Patrick just whatever I missed, you should jump in and answer as well. First of all, I think we know who the providers are. We've been -- we've always had a good dedicated team within our capital markets business that is continuously developing those relationships. We obviously have existing lenders within KREF.

是的。讓我——史蒂芬，又是馬特。讓我開始吧，然後帕特里克無論我錯過了什麼，你也應該加入並回答。首先，我認為我們知道提供者是誰。我們的資本市場業務一直擁有優秀的敬業團隊，並不斷發展這些關係。顯然，KREF 內已有現有貸款機構。

We have existing lenders within private funds that we manage. So we've got a pretty good pulse on the market, and we've got a global platform. So it is very much a global effort in terms of developing those types of facilities. So that's first.

我們管理的私人基金中現有貸方。所以我們對市場有很好的把握，我們有一個全球平台。因此，開發此類設施在很大程度上是全球性的努力。這是第一名。

Second comment, we are seeing new entrants pop into that market and we're seeing existing participants expand their programs. So the path of -- the direction of travel here is pretty identifiable in terms of what the banks are trying to accomplish. And so, we should be able to really draft off of that and benefit from that.

第二條評論是，我們看到新進入者湧入該市場，並且我們看到現有參與者擴展他們的計劃。因此，就銀行試圖實現的目標而言，這裡的發展方向是相當明確的。因此，我們應該能夠真正從中受益並從中受益。

From a leverage perspective, it's not too dissimilar from where we were previously, call it, 75% to 80% advance rate with the banks solving for somewhere in a look-through LTV in the 50% range, low-50% range, typically speaking.

從槓桿的角度來看，這與我們之前的情況並沒有太大不同，稱之為75% 到80% 的預付款率，銀行通常會解決50% 範圍內（低至50% 範圍內）的透視LTV 的問題。

Obviously, it's a little bit deal dependent or property type dependent. And I'd say that financing is currently priced in the SOFR plus 150 to 175 area for the most part for the types of opportunities that we're focused on, which as you recall, like tend to be more institutional, more light transitional. Certainly, that price could widen as you get into longer dated or heavier business plans.

顯然，這有點依賴交易或屬性類型。我想說的是，融資目前的定價在 SOFR 加 150 至 175 範圍內，大部分是我們關注的機會類型，正如您所記得的，這些機會往往更加製度化、更加輕型過渡。當然，當你制定更長的日期或更繁重的商業計劃時，這個價格可能會擴大。

And I think the most notable -- outside of just the shift in terms of how the banks are thinking about their capital treatment and the magnitude or the quantum of capital that -- in that market today, I'd say, the biggest shift is just there is much more of a willingness to do non-mark-to-market facilities than there has been in the past.

我認為最值得注意的是，除了銀行如何考慮其資本待遇以及資本規模或數量方面的轉變之外，我想說，在當今的市場上，最大的轉變是只是與過去相比，人們更願意進行非以市價計價的融資。

We used to spend a ton of time scouring the globe, looking for relationships where we can develop those non-mark-to-market facilities. I would say, that's almost more regular way, maybe not quite there yet, but almost regular way at this point in time for these facilities. And so we'll continue to push that dialogue, because obviously, that's been an important risk mitigant feature for KREF in particular, but for the industry as a whole.

我們曾經花費大量時間在全球範圍內尋找可以開發這些非以市價計價設施的關係。我想說，這幾乎是更常規的方式，也許還沒有完全實現，但目前對這些設施來說幾乎是常規方式。因此，我們將繼續推動這種對話，因為顯然，這對 KREF 乃至整個產業來說都是一個重要的風險緩解功能。

Patrick, anything you'd add to that?

派崔克，你還有什麼要補充的嗎？

No, I think that's well covered, Matt.

不，我認為這已經很好了，馬特。

Yeah, that's helpful, and definitely, things like banks have a good reason to do it given the capital treatment as you mentioned. So appreciate the comments this morning.

是的，這很有幫助，而且考慮到您提到的資本待遇，像銀行這樣的機構肯定有充分的理由這樣做。感謝今天早上的評論。

Jade Rahmani, KBW.

傑德·拉赫馬尼，KBW。

Just on the watch list and REO, could you give some parameters as to timing? Do you expect the bulk of REO and watch list to be resolved, say, over the next year or how would you frame that?

就觀察名單和 REO 而言，您能否提供一些有關時間的參數？您是否預計大部分 REO 和觀察名單將在明年解決，或者您將如何解決這個問題？

Hey, Jade, it's Matt. Thanks for the question. Hard one to say. Obviously, a lot of the -- some of that -- a lot of that timing is out of our control. Let's break it apart a little bit. On the watch list loans, I would say, those hopefully over the next year or the next few quarters, we should be able to deal with those. Unclear which direction those could go. Those are both multifamily loans at this point in time.

嘿，傑德，我是馬特。謝謝你的提問。很難說。顯然，很多——其中一些——很多時間都是我們無法控制的。讓我們把它拆開一點。我想說，在觀察名單上的貸款，希望在明年或接下來的幾個季度，我們應該能夠處理這些貸款。尚不清楚這些可能走向哪個方向。目前這些都是多戶家庭貸款。

And as you start to think about where we are, and we highlighted this on the call, we're really very focused on the fact that we haven't put more into that four-rated bucket over the last couple of quarters. So I think that's important that we're not seeing that three to four transition.

當你開始思考我們所處的位置時，我們在電話會議上強調了這一點，我們真的非常關注這樣一個事實：在過去的幾個季度中，我們沒有在四級桶中投入更多資金。所以我認為重要的是我們沒有看到三到四的轉變。

And of course, unfortunate, don't love the fact that some went to four to five and we increased reserves. But in some ways, that's a positive thing in the sense that we're getting -- kind of getting through it and identifying it and moving on. So I'd say, the fours are probably a little bit more identifiable hopefully next few quarters.

當然，不幸的是，我不喜歡這樣的事實：有些人去了四到五個，而我們增加了儲備。但在某些方面，這是一件積極的事情，因為我們正在經歷它並識別它並繼續前進。所以我想說，希望在接下來的幾季裡，四人組可能會更容易辨認。

And then on the REO side, let's just talk about each one is probably most helpful. So our Lloyd Center in Portland, that one, we continue to make really good progress in terms of entitlements and hope to submit and receive back kind of city approval, call it, first half of next year, at which point we could begin to have some liquidity events in that particular asset. That's a little bit more identifiable just how far we are down the road and that's a pretty exciting project. And so I think we're continuing to push that particular one forward.

然後，在 REO 方面，我們來談談可能最有幫助的每一項。因此，我們在波特蘭的勞埃德中心，我們在權利方面繼續取得非常好的進展，並希望在明年上半年提交並獲得城市批准，稱之為，屆時我們可以開始擁有該特定資產的一些流動性事件。這讓我們更清楚地知道我們已經走了多遠，這是一個非常令人興奮的項目。因此，我認為我們將繼續推動這一特定目標的發展。

When you think about Mountain View, that one is probably the biggest unknown. It's a campus-like facility. It sets up really well for a single tenant. And this is the one where we're just going to have to be patient and wait for the market to come back a little bit. We are on a very short list of assets that gets attention when a large tenant comes into the market and is looking for that unique campus setting.

當你想到山景城時，這可能是最大的未知數。這是一個類似校園的設施。對於單一租戶來說，它的設置非常好。在這種情況下，我們必須要有耐心，等待市場稍微回升。當大型租戶進入市場並正在尋找獨特的校園環境時，我們的資產清單就很短，這些資產會引起人們的注意。

And so we'll continue to try to position ourselves well for that tenant demand. But just given the nature of catching a single tenant, it's really hard to predict when we could resolve that, but certainly, it can take all of next year.

因此，我們將繼續努力滿足租戶的需求。但考慮到抓住單一租戶的性質，很難預測我們何時可以解決這個問題，但可以肯定的是，這可能需要明年一整年的時間。

When we think about the Seattle Life Science deal, a little different story because that's multi-tenant. And so we're pushing that business plan forward thinking about putting an incubator space. We're actively engaged in the market right now with a potential tenant for a floor or two of that. And so that one is I'm hoping that over the next few quarters, while we may not fully resolve it, we can at least provide updates as we begin the leasing on that on more of a granular basis.

當我們考慮西雅圖生命科學交易時，情況會有所不同，因為它是多租戶的。因此，我們正在推動該商業計劃，並考慮設立孵化器空間。我們目前正在積極參與市場，並有潛在租戶租用其中一兩層樓。因此，我希望在接下來的幾個季度中，雖然我們可能無法完全解決這個問題，但我們至少可以在開始租賃時提供更詳細的更新。

And then that leaves the last one, which is the Philadelphia asset. It's two -- if you recall, two assets. We have an office and a garage left. We'll likely try to sell the garage probably by the end of the year here. And then the office we'll likely keep on a longer-term hold, but this one has moved around a little bit from an execution perspective over the last couple of quarters.

然後剩下最後一項，即費城資產。這是兩個——如果你還記得的話，是兩個資產。我們還剩下一間辦公室和一個車庫。我們可能會在今年年底之前嘗試出售這裡的車庫。然後，我們可能會長期持有該辦公室，但從執行的角度來看，這個辦公室在過去幾季中發生了一些變化。

So we'll keep you posted. But that's an update as I work through the list of what we have in REO. And hopefully, it's obviously a meaningful component of the portfolio now, not only from just an equity investment perspective, but as we repatriate that capital gives us the ability to obviously generate more earnings. So we'll try to keep everybody updated as we get into 2025.

所以我們會及時通知您。但這是我在查看 REO 中的內容清單時的更新。希望它現在顯然是投資組合的一個有意義的組成部分，不僅從股權投資的角度來看，而且當我們匯回資本時，我們有能力創造更多的收益。因此，進入 2025 年，我們將盡力向所有人通報最新情況。

Any assets where you could see upside? It sounds like your commentary was a little more positive around Portland and also maybe the garage, Philadelphia garage.

您可以看到哪些資產有上漲空間？聽起來你對波特蘭以及費城車庫的評論更加積極。

Well, yeah. I mean, I think that the --

嗯，是的。我的意思是，我認為--

Upside to your basis.

對你的基礎有好處。

No, understood. Well, I guess, the best way to think about it is when we talk about the potential to drive earnings with that repatriated capital, that analysis or that math is based on our current cost, our current hold. It's not based on any potential increase from there. And I think on some of these, we will do better than that.

不，明白了。嗯，我想，最好的思考方式是，當我們談論用匯回的資本推動盈利的潛力時，這種分析或數學是基於我們當前的成本、我們當前的持有量。它不是基於任何潛在的成長。我認為在其中一些方面我們會做得更好。

Obviously, as you go from an unleased asset to a leased asset, depends on the parameters and where you leased it and other factors. But I'm hoping that we can do better than kind of where we hold it today on a number of these, but that remains to be seen as we try to execute those business plans.

顯然，當您從未租賃資產轉變為租賃資產時，取決於參數、租賃地點以及其他因素。但我希望我們能夠在其中一些方面做得比今天更好，但這在我們嘗試執行這些業務計劃時仍有待觀察。

The Raleigh and San Diego multifamily, it sounds like you expect resolution and will be somewhat in line with your basis, KREF's basis?

羅利和聖地牙哥多戶家庭，聽起來您期望解決方案並且會在某種程度上符合您的基礎、KREF 的基礎？

I think I don't -- we don't know yet, right? They're four-rated loans. They're on the watch list. They're both performing. Our experience I think has been, as loans hit the four, I think roughly half have gone back to performing and half have ended up in a work-out scenario as a five-rated loan. So I don't think we want to make any predictions right there if we knew that we would likely either have them as a three than five. But -- so there's still some uncertainty in those.

我想我不知道——我們還不知道，對吧？它們是四級貸款。他們在觀察名單上。他們倆都在表演。我認為我們的經驗是，當貸款達到四級時，我認為大約一半已經恢復正常，一半最終以五級貸款的形式結束。因此，如果我們知道我們可能會得到三比五的結果，我認為我們不想立即做出任何預測。但是——所以這些仍然存在一些不確定性。

I think they're multifamily deals. So losses in that segment seem to be relatively contained. And we'll stick with our comments that we've made over the last few quarters that multi is a big part of our portfolio. We've seen a lot of liquidity in that sector, probably more than we would have initially expected, if you told me rates were going to go up 500 basis points. But we're not -- obviously not totally immune from potential losses there, but we think it's going to be relatively contained and certainly more noise than real impact on book value over time.

我認為它們是多戶型交易。因此，該領域的損失似乎相對有限。我們將堅持過去幾季的評論，即多元化是我們投資組合的重要組成部分。如果你告訴我利率將上漲 500 個基點，我們已經看到該行業有大量流動性，可能比我們最初預期的還要多。但我們顯然不能完全免受潛在損失的影響，但我們認為隨著時間的推移，這種損失將相對受到控制，而且肯定會比對帳面價值的實際影響更大。

And West Hollywood catches the attention because it's such a high dollar amount per unit. Is the plan to convert it to condos?

西好萊塢之所以引起人們的關注，是因為它的單位售價如此之高。是否計劃將其改建為公寓？

Right now, it's operating as a multifamily. You're right to point out that it's a pretty high -- it's a high basis per unit or per foot. It was originally built as condo and then operated as multi. My guess is that the best path forward will likely be a condo sell-out on that one.

目前，它作為多戶住宅運作。你指出它相當高是正確的——這是每單位或每英尺的高基礎。它最初是作為公寓建造的，然後作為多用途公寓運作。我的猜測是，最好的前進道路可能是公寓售空。

Okay. And it can be quite easily entitled for that?

好的。它可以很容易地獲得這樣的資格嗎？

Yes.

是的。

Okay. And then just lastly, the San Carlos Life Science. So in your commentary, you flagged Mountain View, California as sort of the biggest risk. I would assume San Carlos might be second. And in the modification that you're discussing, is the goal to have a longer term modification considering the size of this project?

好的。最後是聖卡洛斯生命科學。因此，在您的評論中，您將加州山景城標記為最大的風險。我認為聖卡洛斯可能是第二名。在您正在討論的修改中，考慮到該專案的規模，目標是否是進行更長期的修改？

Yes. This one I think we need to be a little bit careful on just because we're right in the middle of negotiations. But our first preference is always to work with our existing sponsors. And so if we can get to a deal with them, then hopefully, we can create the basis that makes sense for everybody and give the asset more time to implement its business plan.

是的。我認為在這一點上我們需要小心一點，因為我們正處於談判之中。但我們的首要選擇始終是與現有的贊助商合作。因此，如果我們能夠與他們達成協議，那麼我們希望能夠為每個人創造一個有意義的基礎，並給資產更多的時間來實施其業務計劃。

And so that's really path one for us, but let's see what happens. I think we've increased our reserves to try to reflect some of the current dialogue that's going on there. And hopefully, we can get to a deal.

這對我們來說確實是第一條路，但讓我們看看會發生什麼。我認為我們已經增加了儲備，以試圖反映當前正在進行的一些對話。希望我們能夠達成協議。

Don Fandetti, Wells Fargo.

唐范德蒂，富國銀行。

Hi, can you talk about your updated thoughts on the office market? Are you seeing increased debt and equity interest? And then also, what is the buyer profile of the loan that you sold in Q4, your office loan?

您好，可以談談您對辦公室市場的最新看法嗎？您是否看到債務和股權增加？另外，您在第四季度出售的辦公室貸款（辦公室貸款）的買家概況是什麼？

Oh, yeah. Thank you, Don, for the question. It's Matt again. I think the office market is beginning -- it's beginning to show a little bit more liquidity on the capital market side. If you looked last year, for instance, most of the buyers there were high net worth large family offices, really no institutional investors in the market for acquisitions.

哦，是的。謝謝唐提出的問題。又是馬特。我認為辦公室市場正在開始——它開始在資本市場方面顯示出更多的流動性。例如，如果你看看去年，大多數買家都是高淨值大型家族辦公室，市場上確實沒有機構投資者進行收購。

And now I think you're beginning to see signs of institutional investors coming back into the market. And like all these -- like as you'd expect in these type of large downturns, liquidity is coming back for the best assets first. So for the highest quality assets, the newest assets, the assets that have some long walls associated with them, for instance. And so we'll see if that continues.

現在我認為你開始看到機構投資者重返市場的跡象。與所有這些一樣，正如您在此類大幅衰退中所預期的那樣，流動性首先會回歸到最好的資產。因此，例如，對於最高品質的資產、最新的資產、具有與之相關的長牆的資產。所以我們會看看這種情況是否會持續下去。

On the financing side, I think the same is true. There's not a lot of velocity in people's loan -- office loan portfolios right now. So there's still a really, really high bar to make a new office loan since you're not getting repaid on any. But you're starting to see lending return, especially in sub-markets that have shown real strength over the course of the last couple of years or assets with very long lease terms, as you'd expect.

在融資方面，我認為也是如此。目前，人們的貸款—辦公貸款組合的流通速度並不快。因此，申請新的辦公室貸款仍然有一個非常非常高的門檻，因為你沒有得到任何償還。但正如您所期望的那樣，您開始看到貸款回報，特別是在過去幾年中表現出真正實力的子市場或具有很長租賃期限的資產。

So it's beginning. The capital markets are starting to come back for office. CMBS and SASB have done a number of deals, notably Rock Center, which is obviously a multi-billion dollar transaction or offering in the market. So you think you're beginning to see signs of life on the capital markets front overall. In terms of the loan that we sold, it went to effectively an office equity investor.

所以它開始了。資本市場開始復甦。CMBS 和 SASB 已經完成了多項交易，尤其是 Rock Center，這顯然是市場上價值數十億美元的交易或發行。所以你認為你開始看到資本市場整體的生命跡象。就我們出售的貸款而言，它實際上流向了辦公室股權投資者。

Tom Catherwood, BTIG.

湯姆·凱瑟伍德，BT​​IG。

Thank you and good morning, everybody. Matt, maybe following up on Rick's question from the start. With the increase in transaction activity that you mentioned, are you seeing that for opportunistic and value-add type deals that would kind of traditionally be looking for transitional type loans or the transactions more core and core plus type assets at the moment?

謝謝大家，早安。馬特，也許從一開始就跟進里克的問題。隨著您提到的交易活動的增加，您是否認為對於機會主義和增值型交易，傳統上會尋求過渡型貸款或目前更核心和核心+型資產的交易？

Yes, I can take that. I would say, the market is -- it's always more weighted towards core, core plus type of lending opportunities. So that's always a larger component of the overall market. I do think that over the course of the last 18 months, that transitional type of capital, let's just call it, a little bit higher cost of capital has been more difficult to lend.

是的，我可以接受。我想說，市場總是更注重核心、核心+類型的貸款機會。因此，這始終是整個市場的一個較大組成部分。我確實認為，在過去 18 個月的過程中，這種過渡類型的資本（我們姑且稱之為資本成本稍高一點）就更難放貸了。

So when I think about like a KREF shareholder over the last, call it, 12 to 18 months from like just a new opportunity perspective, there hasn't been -- it hasn't been like the best I think lending environment. Certainly, values have been down, competition has been down. But the demand for transitional loans hasn't been particularly high, to your point.

因此，當我考慮過去作為 KREF 股東的情況時，從新的機會角度來看，12 到 18 個月以來，還沒有出現過我認為最好的貸款環境。當然，價值觀已經下降，競爭也已經下降。但就您而言，對過渡性貸款的需求並不是特別高。

What we're seeing now is that demand increase for sure. I think it largely is due to two things. Number one, there's just been like a reboot in acquisition activity and I think this type of capital is more relevant to that segment of the market.

我們現在看到的是需求肯定會增加。我認為這主要是由於兩件事。第一，收購活動剛剛重啟，我認為這種類型的資本與該市場領域更相關。

And then secondly, we've seen a lot of activity in just capital structures are maturing and borrowers don't want to sell, or owners don't want to sell. So they need more time. Their existing lenders kind of run out of time. And so a number of the opportunities we're seeing are just a bridge, right?

其次，我們看到許多活動的資本結構正在成熟，借款人不想出售，或者業主不想出售。所以他們需要更多的時間。他們現有的貸款人已經沒有時間了。所以我們看到的許多機會只是一座橋樑，對吧？

Just purely -- not necessarily the business plan is transitional, it's just the market -- the owner wants more time for the market to continue to heal and cost of capital to continue to come down and then they could sell into a better market.

只是純粹 - 業務計劃不一定是過渡性的，這只是市場 - 所有者希望市場有更多時間繼續癒合，資本成本繼續下降，然後他們可以將產品出售到更好的市場。

So I'd say that part is picking up and we've seen a lot of that in our own pipeline. And our expectation is as we go into next year, that will be -- there will be a pretty robust opportunity set as the market -- overall market reboots.

所以我想說這部分正在增加，我們已經在自己的​​管道中看到了很多這樣的情況。我們的預期是，當我們進入明年時，隨著市場的整體市場重新啟動，將會出現相當強勁的機會。

I appreciate those thoughts, Matt. And kind of along the same lines, last question for me. But does -- if transaction activity is beginning to ramp, especially for assets that need transitional loans, plus you're sitting on kind of material liquidity, do you need to wait to get to 2025 repayment activity to start ramping new originations or is this something where you could start in the fourth quarter or the first quarter start putting capital to work and levering up a bit and then bring that back down as you get more repayments or does this really have to be match funded as you get those repayments in '25?

我很欣賞這些想法，馬特。類似地，這是我的最後一個問題。但是，如果交易活動開始增加，特別是對於需要過渡性貸款的資產，再加上您擁有一定的物質流動性，您是否需要等到 2025 年還款活動開始增加新的來源，或者是這樣嗎？可以從第四季度或第一季開始投入資金並稍微提高槓桿率，然後當你獲得更多還款時將其降低，或者當你在“還款”中獲得這些還款時，這真的必須得到配對資金嗎？

That's a good question. I don't -- we have enough liquidity. I don't think we need to like completely match these things up. I think we could probably get ahead of it a little bit. We're actively in the market today looking at transactions a little bit. We do have a big election coming up here in the next few weeks.

這是個好問題。我不認為——我們有足夠的流動性。我認為我們不需要完全匹配這些東西。我想我們或許可以提早一點。我們今天在市場上積極關注交易。未來幾週內我們確實將舉行一場重大選舉。

Honestly, I'm not like personally that motivated like put it out in the next few weeks. Let's see what happens with the election, any volatility around that. But certainly, from just a KREF perspective, we have the liquidity today that we could try to get ahead of it a little bit.

老實說，我個人並不像在接下來的幾週內那樣有動力。讓我們看看選舉會發生什麼，以及與之相關的任何波動。但當然，僅從 KREF 的角度來看，我們今天擁有流動性，我們可以嘗試稍微提前一點。

(Operator Instructions) Steve Delaney, Citizens JMP Securities.

（操作員指示）Steve Delaney，公民 JMP 證券。

Hey, good morning, everyone. Appreciate you taking the questions. Look, your comments, it's clear that you're in a process of shifting from defense to offense. As we look at the loan portfolio, I'm looking at your page 20 of your deck, excluding the REO, you're about $6.8 billion in commitments currently.

嘿，大家早安。感謝您提出問題。看你的評論，很明顯你正處於由守轉攻的過程中。當我們查看貸款組合時，我正在查看您的第 20 頁，不包括 REO，您目前的承諾約為 68 億美元。

As you look out to 2025, I mean, could that number reach as much as, say, $8 billion? Do you have a figure in mind that's sort of your fully invested portfolio, loan portfolio, what would that look like from a size standpoint? Thank you.

我的意思是，展望 2025 年，這個數字會達到 80 億美元嗎？您心中是否有一個完全投資組合、貸款組合的數字？謝謝。

Steve, it's Patrick. I'll take that question. I think the way you should think about it is if you think about our current portfolio today and our future funding obligations, that's probably the steady state for the equity we have today. And so, I think what you should be hearing from us is that as we're getting repayments, we're going to replace those assets with new originations.

史蒂夫，是派崔克。我來回答這個問題。我認為你應該考慮的方式是，如果你考慮我們今天目前的投資組合和我們未來的融資義務，這可能是我們今天擁有的股權的穩定狀態。因此，我認為您應該從我們這裡聽到的是，當我們收到還款時，我們將用新的資產替換這些資產。

And so, I'm not expecting a lot of change off of that number. We're kind of in our target leverage zone. So I would think about that as kind of being, absent new capital coming in, sort of a portfolio size towards the end of 2025.

因此，我預計這個數字不會有太大變化。我們處於目標槓桿區域。因此，我認為，在沒有新資本進入的情況下，這相當於 2025 年底的投資組合規模。

Okay. Got it. Thanks. And as far as your CLOs go, as part of this renewing the activity with lending, do you have some efficiency that you could achieve in CLO financing? I don't -- I believe you're out of your reinvestment period in all of those so they would be -- they're in run-off mode, I assume. Is that accurate that they are? And are you thinking about a new CLO as part of your kind of refreshed lending strategy? Thanks.

好的。知道了。謝謝。就您的 CLO 而言，作為貸款更新活動的一部分，您在 CLO 融資方面是否可以實現一些效率？我不——我相信你已經過了所有這些的再投資期，所以它們會——我認為它們處於決勝模式。他們的說法準確嗎？您是否正在考慮將新的 CLO 作為您更新的貸款策略的一部分？謝謝。

Yes, that's a great question, Steve. So both of our CLOs just exited their replenishment periods this year. And so they were fully invested at the end of those replenishment periods. At this point, obviously, any repayments delever us and slightly increase our cost of capital as we pay back the cheapest liabilities. But given where we sit today, it takes quite a bit of repayments to actually get us to a level that's probably unattractive from a financing standpoint.

是的，這是一個很好的問題，史蒂夫。因此，我們的兩家 CLO 今年剛結束了補充期。因此，他們在補充期結束時進行了全額投資。顯然，在這一點上，任何還款都會使我們的債務減少，並在我們償還最便宜的負債時略微增加我們的資本成本。但考慮到我們今天的處境，我們需要大量還款才能真正達到從融資角度來看可能沒有吸引力的水平。

That said, if you look at the CLO market over the last couple of months, we've seen a lot of improvement there. We've seen improvement in terms of appetite from investors. And that's driving the cost of capital down on these new CLOs.

也就是說，如果你看看過去幾個月的 CLO 市場，我們會發現那裡有很大的改善。我們看到投資者的興趣有所改善。這使得這些新的 CLO 的資本成本下降。

So I expect that market to continue to provide some tailwinds overall. Sometimes the assets lead, sometimes the liabilities lead, but we're seeing tightening on the liabilities, both in terms of what Matt had referenced from the bank financing, but now also in the capital markets on the CLO side.

因此，我預計該市場總體上將繼續提供一些推動力。有時是資產領先，有時是負債領先，但我們看到負債收緊，無論是從馬特從銀行融資中提到的角度來看，還是從現在 CLO 方面的資本市場來看。

So as we think about over time those CLOs becoming less efficient for us, the market is setting up well for us to be able to refinance what's left of those CLOs at some point and then to add new collateral that we're starting to originate going into 2025.

因此，當我們考慮隨著時間的推移，這些CLO 對我們來說效率會降低時，市場正在為我們做好準備，以便我們能夠在某個時候為這些CLO 的剩餘資金進行再融資，然後添加我們開始發起的新抵押品到2025年。

Great. Thank you for the comments and its good progress on working through and I appreciate all the color on your individual watch list asset in the REO. That's really helpful. It comes to tell the story about those assets. Look forward to wrapping this year up in bigger and better things in 2025.

偉大的。感謝您的評論及其在工作中取得的良好進展，我很欣賞您在 REO 中個人觀察列表資產上的所有顏色。這真的很有幫助。它講述了有關這些資產的故事。期待 2025 年以更大、更好的事情結束這一年。

Jade Rahmani, KBW.

傑德·拉赫馬尼，KBW。

Thank you. Just wanted to ask if you're seeing any uptick in loan portfolio sales from banks or credit risk transfers, situations like that where perhaps KREF might participate?

謝謝。只是想問一下，您是否發現銀行貸款組合銷售或信用風險轉移有所增加，類似 KREF 可能會參與的情況？

Thank you, Jade. It's Matt again. On the loan portfolio sales side, it's been pretty muted still. We have not seen a lot come through that channel. And what's come through feels more sub-performing, non-performing loan. And honestly, it's less big pools than it is one-off one or two loans at a time. So it's not an area, honestly, we've been really engaged with. I haven't seen anything particularly interesting there.

謝謝你，傑德。又是馬特。在貸款組合銷售方面，情況仍然相當平靜。我們還沒有看到很多東西透過該管道進行。而所經歷的事情感覺更多是表現不佳、不良貸款。老實說，與其說是大資金池，不如說是一次一次發放一、兩筆貸款。所以說實話，這不是一個我們真正參與的領域。我在那裡沒有看到任何特別有趣的東西。

On the credit risk transfer side, that we've seen a little bit of pick-up in that market. I think banks are trying to figure out how do you adapt where they've had success in more granular loan portfolios on the consumer or on the resi side to commercial, where as we know, credits are more idiosyncratic, control is more important. And it's not as much kind of statistical analysis around performance and losses.

在信用風險轉移方面，我們看到該市場有所回升。我認為銀行正試圖弄清楚如何將他們在消費者或儲蓄方面的更細粒度貸款組合中取得的成功之處適應到商業領域，正如我們所知，信貸更加特殊，控制更加重要。它並不是關於績效和損失的統計分析。

So it's been interesting to watch as that begin, I would say, very beginning stages, but begins to develop. And it's something we'll certainly stick close to. And it's I think another way for the banks to kind of come at almost like a loan-on-loan facility from an existing portfolio perspective. So nothing large in that market yet, but certainly, conversations have begun.

因此，我想說，從非常開始的階段開始，但開始發展，這是很有趣的。我們一定會堅持這一點。我認為，從現有投資組合的角度來看，這是銀行的另一種方式，幾乎就像貸款貸款工具一樣。所以這個市場還沒有什麼大的東西，但可以肯定的是，對話已經開始了。

This concludes our question-and-answer session. I would like to turn the conference back over to Jack Switala for any closing remarks.

我們的問答環節到此結束。我想將會議轉回傑克·斯維塔拉（Jack Switala）發表閉幕詞。

Great. Thanks, operator, and thanks everyone for joining today. Please reach out to me or the team here if you have any questions. Take care.

偉大的。謝謝運營商，也謝謝大家今天的加入。如果您有任何疑問，請聯絡我或這裡的團隊。小心。

The conference has now concluded. Thank you for attending today's presentation. You may now disconnect.

會議現已結束。感謝您參加今天的演講。您現在可以斷開連線。