金德摩根 (KMI) 2024 Q3 法說會逐字稿

Welcome to the quarterly earnings conference call. (Operator Instructions) Today's call is being recorded. If you have any objections, please disconnect at this time.

歡迎參加季度財報電話會議。（操作員說明）今天的通話正在錄音。如果您有任何異議，請此時斷開連接。

I'll now turn the call over to Mr. Rich Kinder, Executive Chairman of Kinder Morgan.

現在我將把電話轉給金德摩根執行主席里奇金德先生。

Okay. Thank you, Todd. Before we begin, as usual, I'd like to remind you that KMI's earnings release today and this call include forward-looking statements within the meaning of the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995 and the Securities and Exchange Act of 1934, as well as certain non-GAAP financial measures.

好的。謝謝你，托德。在我們開始之前，像往常一樣，我想提醒您，KMI 今天發布的收益和本次電話會議還包含 1995 年《私人證券訴訟改革法》和 1934 年《證券交易法》含義內的前瞻性陳述。作為某些非公認會計準則財務指標。

Before making any investment decisions, we strongly encourage you to read our full disclosure on forward-looking statements and use of non-GAAP financial measures set forth at the end of our earnings release, as well as review our latest filings with the SEC for important material assumptions, expectations, and risk factors that may cause actual results to differ materially from those anticipated and described in such forward-looking statements.

在做出任何投資決定之前，我們強烈建議您閱讀我們在收益發布末尾列出的關於前瞻性陳述和使用非公認會計準則財務指標的完整披露，並查看我們向SEC 提交的最新文件以了解重要信息。

Over the past few quarters, I've talked about our view of the future demand for natural gas with strong growth being driven by LNG exports, exports to Mexico, and electric generation which is benefiting from the tremendous needs of AI and data centers. Our viewpoint is consistent with most other energy leaders and analysts in the field.

在過去的幾個季度中，我談到了我們對未來天然氣需求的看法，天然氣出口、墨西哥出口以及受益於人工智慧和資料中心巨大需求的發電推動了天然氣需求的強勁增長。我們的觀點與該領域大多數其他能源領導者和分析師的觀點一致。

So the next question is, what's the impact of this growth on a midstream company like Kinder Morgan? We believe it's substantial and positive. In fact, in my decades of experience in the midterm arena, I've never seen a macro environment so rich with opportunities for incremental build out of natural gas infrastructure. And at Kinder Morgan, we expect to be a major player in developing that the infrastructure.

那麼下一個問題是，這種成長對像金德摩根這樣的中游公司有什麼影響？我們相信這是實質和積極的。事實上，在我數十年的中期經驗中，我從未見過如此豐富的宏觀環境，充滿了天然氣基礎設施增量建設的機會。在金德摩根，我們希望成為開發基礎設施的主要參與者。

In July, we announced the approximately $3 billion South System Expansion 4 project, which is underpinned by long-term shipper commitments and designed to increase our Southern Natural Gas South line capacity by approximately 1.2 Bcf per day, helping to meet growing power generation and residential commercial demand in the southeastern US market.

7 月，我們宣布了價值約30 億美元的南方系統擴建4 項目，該項目以托運人的長期承諾為基礎，旨在將我們的南方天然氣南線產能每天增加約1.2 Bcf，幫助滿足不斷增長的發電和住宅需求。

Today, we are announcing the expansion of our GCX system in Texas, which will enable our customers who have signed long-term throughput agreements to move substantial additional gas out of the Permian Basin.

今天，我們宣布擴建德州的 GCX 系統，這將使我們已簽署長期吞吐量協議的客戶能夠將大量額外的天然氣運出二疊紀盆地。

We expect to announce additional significant projects over the next several months that will allow us to expand and extend our network to better serve the needs of our customers and benefit our bottom line. As these projects come online, we should be able to grow our EPS, EBITDA, and DCF on a consistent and sustainable basis for years to come.

我們預計在未來幾個月內宣布更多重要項目，這將使我們能夠擴大和擴展我們的網絡，以更好地滿足客戶的需求並有利於我們的利潤。隨著這些項目上線，我們應該能夠在未來幾年持續、可持續地成長 EPS、EBITDA 和 DCF。

And with that, I'll turn it over to Kim.

有了這個，我會把它交給金。

Thanks, Richard. I'll make it a few points, and then I'll turn it over to Tom and David to give you more detail.

謝謝，理查。我將提出幾點，然後將其交給湯姆和大衛，讓他們向您提供更多細節。

But for the third quarter, earnings per share was unchanged. EBITDA grew by 2% versus the third quarter of last year. For the year, we expect EBITDA of 5% and EPS growth of 9% versus 2023 despite our expectation to be slightly below our budget due to lower commodity prices and slow startup of our R&D facilities. Debt to EBITDA remains at 4.1 times.

但第三季每股收益沒有變動。EBITDA 較去年第三季成長 2%。與 2023 年相比，我們預計今年 EBITDA 為 5%，每股盈餘將成長為 9%，儘管由於大宗商品價格下跌和研發設施啟動緩慢，我們的預期略低於預算。EBITDA 債務仍為 4.1 倍。

During the quarter, we added roughly $450 million of projects to the backlog, which includes the GCX expansion that Rich mentioned, but also includes the storage expansion on NGPL, and a new lateral to serve a natural gas power plant. We placed approximately $500 million of projects and service, resulting in a current backlog of $5.1 billion.

本季度，我們在積壓項目中增加了約 4.5 億美元的項目，其中包括 Rich 提到的 GCX 擴建，還包括 NGPL 的儲存擴建，以及為天然氣發電廠提供服務的新支線。我們投入了約 5 億美元的專案和服務，導致目前的積壓金額為 51 億美元。

As we look to the future, we continue to see large opportunities for growth in natural gas between LNG exports to Mexico, power, industrial growth. Current discussion on power opportunities total well north of 5 Bcf a day we mentioned in the second quarter. Our internal number for growth in the overall now natural gas market is roughly 25 Bcf a day over the next five years.

展望未來，我們繼續看到向墨西哥的液化天然氣出口、電力和工業成長之間的天然氣成長機會。目前關於電力機會的討論總量遠高於我們在第二季度提到的每天 5 Bcf。我們的內部預測未來五年內整個天然氣市場的成長量約為每天 25 Bcf。

On the power side, there are numerous drivers of that demand. We see population and business migration to the southern United States from Arizona to Texas, to Georgia and Florida, and what were already tight energy markets. The CHIPS Act, cheap feedstock prices, and national security are leading to onshoring and nearshoring.

在電力方面，這種需求有許多驅動因素。我們看到人口和商業向美國南部遷移，從亞利桑那州到德克薩斯州、喬治亞州和佛羅裡達州，以及本已緊張的能源市場。《CHIPS 法案》、廉價原料價格和國家安全正在導致在岸和近岸外包。

Renewables are leading to the need for more natural gas peakers plants to back-up intermittent demand. Coal plants are moving forward with conversion. And of course, data center demand has skyrocketed.

再生能源導致需要更多的天然氣尖峰發電廠來滿足間歇性需求。燃煤電廠正在推動轉型。當然，資料中心的需求激增。

Regardless of the demand driver, one project often creates a need for a subsequent project. For example, an LNG facility initially builds or contracts for a header pipe to get natural gas to a facility from the closest liquid market. Over time, it contracts for capacity upstream of that liquid point to secure more attractively priced molecules.

無論需求驅動因素如何，一個專案通常會產生對後續專案的需求。例如，液化天然氣設施最初建造或承包總管，以將天然氣從最近的液體市場輸送到設施。隨著時間的推移，它會收縮該液體點上游的容量，以確保價格更具吸引力的分子。

In addition, we have seen some of these companies subscribed for capacity on an entirely separate path to achieve diversity of supply. We see somewhat similar dynamic for the LDC and power demand side, projects to expand existing pipeline capacity within the demand areas and then a desire to rate further back to ensure sufficient and diverse supply. It kind of reminds me of the old song by The Fixx, One Thing Leads to Another.

此外，我們也看到其中一些公司透過完全獨立的途徑認購產能，以實現供應多元化。我們看到最不發達國家和電力需求方的動態有些類似，項目旨在擴大需求區域內的現有管道容量，然後希望進一步下調利率以確保充足和多樣化的供應。這讓我想起 The Fixx 的老歌，One Thing Leads to Another。

As we look at our future opportunity set, a few of the potential projects are very large, $1.5 billion to $2 billion. Most are singles and doubles. As I said last quarter, not all the projects will come to fruition, and the larger projects can take longer to develop. But the opportunity set has continued to increase over the course of this year, and the conversations are becoming more focused and specific.

當我們審視未來的機會集時，一些潛在項目規模非常大，達到 15 億至 20 億美元。大部分是單打和雙打。正如我上季度所說，並非所有專案都會取得成果，較大的專案可能需要更長的時間來開發。但今年的機會持續增加，對話也變得更加集中和具體。

As Rich mentioned, we've already approved two large projects totaling $3.6 billion (inaudible) $1.8 billion to KM share between Southern Natural Gas South System 4 project and the GCX expansion. And I expect, as Rich said, we'll continue to add to this backlog. It's an exciting time to be in the midstream business.

正如 Rich 所提到的，我們已經批准了兩個大型項目，總金額為 36 億美元（聽不清楚），其中 KM 在南方天然氣南方系統 4 項目和 GCX 擴建項目中所佔份額為 18 億美元。我預計，正如里奇所說，我們將繼續增加積壓的工作。現在是從事中游業務的令人興奮的時刻。

And with that, I'll turn it over to Tom to give you more details.

接下來，我會將其轉交給湯姆，讓他向您提供更多詳細資訊。

Thanks, Kim. Starting with the natural gas business units. Transport volumes increased 2% in the quarter versus the third quarter of 2023. Natural gas gathering volumes were up 5% in the quarter compared with 2023, driven by Haynesville and Eagle Ford volumes, which were up 10% and 9%, respectively. Sequentially, total gathering volumes were down 5%.

謝謝，金。從天然氣業務部門開始。與 2023 年第三季相比，本季的運輸量增加了 2%。與 2023 年相比，本季天然氣收集量增加了 5%，其中海恩斯維爾 (Haynesville) 和伊格爾福特 (Eagle Ford) 天然氣收集量分別增加了 10% 和 9%。隨後，總收集量下降了 5%。

For the year, we expect gathering volumes to average 8% below our 2024 plan, but 5% over 2023. We view the slight pullback in gathering volumes as temporary as higher production volumes will be necessary to meet the demand growth from LNG expected in the second half of 2025.

今年，我們預計集油量平均將比 2024 年計畫低 8%，但比 2023 年計畫低 5%。我們認為收集量的小幅回落是暫時的，因為需要提高產量才能滿足預計 2025 年下半年液化天然氣的需求成長。

Looking forward, we continue to see significant incremental project opportunities across our natural gas pipeline network to expand our transportation and storage capabilities in support of the growing natural gas market.

展望未來，我們繼續看到天然氣管網中存在大量增量項目機會，以擴大我們的運輸和儲存能力，以支持不斷增長的天然氣市場。

In our products pipeline segment, refined products volumes were up 1%, and crude and condensate volumes were down 4% in the quarter compared to the third quarter of 2023. For the full year, we expect refined products volumes to be slightly below our plan to 2% over 2023.

在我們的產品管道領域，與 2023 年第三季相比，本季成品油產量增加了 1%，原油和凝析油產量下降了 4%。就全年而言，我們預計成品油產量將略低於我們的計劃，即 2023 年的 2%。

Regarding development opportunities, KMI's SFPP pipeline closed a successful binding open season during the quarter to add 2,400 barrels per day of additional refined petroleum products capacity on its East line system for transportation services from El Paso, Texas, to Tucson, Arizona. The project can be expanded further and is expected to be in service during the third quarter of 2025.

關於發展機會，KMI 的SFPP 管道在本季度成功結束了一個具有約束力的開放季節，在其東線系統上每天增加2,400 桶精煉石油產品產能，為從德克薩斯州埃爾帕索到亞利桑那州圖森的運輸服務提供服務。該項目還可進一步擴建，預計於2025年第三季投入使用。

In our terminals business segment, our liquids lease capacity remains high at 95%. Refining cracks and blending margins, though down from recent highs, remain constructive and supportive of strong rates and high utilization at our key hubs in the Houston Ship Channel in New York Harbor.

在我們的碼頭業務領域，我們的液體租賃能力仍保持在95%的高點。煉油裂解和混合利潤雖然較近期高點有所下降，但仍具有建設性，並支持我們位於紐約港休士頓船舶航道的主要樞紐的強勁費率和高利用率。

Our Jones Act tankers are 100% leased through 2024 and 97% leased in 2025, assuming likely options are exercised. The current market rates remain above our fleet average charter rate, and we expect to recontract at higher charter rates as contracts come up for renewal.

假設行使可能的選擇權，我們的《瓊斯法案》油輪 2024 年之前 100% 已出租，2025 年 97% 已出租。目前的市場費率仍高於我們機隊的平均包機費率，隨著合約的續約，我們預計將以更高的包機費率重新簽訂合約。

The CO2 segment experienced lower oil production volumes at 6%, lower NGL volumes at 3%, and higher CO2 volumes at 3% in the quarter versus the third quarter of 2023. For the full year, we expect oil volumes to be roughly flat to budget.

與 2023 年第三季相比，本季二氧化碳細分市場的石油產量下降了 6%，液化天然氣產量下降了 3%，二氧化碳排放量增加了 3%。我們預計全年石油產量將大致與預算持平。

The Board approved two projects today associated with our acquisitions over the last couple of years. These projects include the development of a CO2 flood at the undeveloped leasehold adjacent to SACROC that we acquired in June and the second phase of the CO2 flood development at Diamond M. We expect to spend a combined $145 million on these projects, resulting in a peak oil production of greater than 5,000 barrels a day.

董事會今天批准了與我們過去幾年收購相關的兩個項目。這些項目包括我們於 6 月收購的 SACROC 附近未開發租賃地的 CO2 驅油開發，以及 Diamond M 的 CO2 驅油開發第二階段。 5,000桶。

With that, I'll turn it over to David Michels.

有了這個，我會把它交給大衛米歇爾斯。

Thanks, Tom. So for the quarter, we're declaring a dividend of $0.2875 per share, which is $1.15 annualized, up 2% from our 2023 dividend.

謝謝，湯姆。因此，我們宣布本季股息為每股 0.2875 美元，年化股息為 1.15 美元，比 2023 年股息增加 2%。

For the quarter, we generated revenue of $3.7 billion, down $208 million from the third quarter of 2023. However, cost of sales were also down, and those were down by $381 million. And so putting those two together, gross margin increased 7% versus last year.

本季我們的營收為 37 億美元，比 2023 年第三季減少 2.08 億美元。然而，銷售成本也下降了，下降了 3.81 億美元。因此，將兩者加在一起，毛利率比去年增長了 7%。

Additionally, we generated net income attributable to KMI of $625 million and earnings per share of $0.28, both 17% higher than the third quarter of 2023. On an adjusted net income basis, which excludes certain items, we generated $557 million and adjusted EPS of $0.25, which is flat with last year.

此外，我們歸屬於 KMI 的淨利潤為 6.25 億美元，每股收益為 0.28 美元，均比 2023 年第三季增長 17%。根據調整後淨利潤（不包括某些項目）計算，我們實現了 5.57 億美元的盈利，調整後每股收益為 0.25 美元，與去年持平。

We saw year-over-year growth from our natural gas and terminals businesses. The main drivers were contributions from our acquired South Texas midstream assets, greater contributions from our natural gas transportation and storage services across our networks, as well as higher growth project contributions. Our product segment was down mainly due to lower commodity prices and the associated impact on our inventory valuations.

我們看到天然氣和碼頭業務年增。主要驅動因素是我們收購的南德州中游資產的貢獻、我們整個網路的天然氣運輸和儲存服務的更大貢獻，以及更高成長的專案貢獻。我們的產品部門下降主要是由於商品價格下降以及對我們庫存估值的相關影響。

DCF per share was $0.49, flat with last year. We experienced higher sustaining capital versus last year in the quarter, which is consistent with how we budgeted for it. For the full year, we expect sustaining capital to be in line with budget.

每股 DCF 為 0.49 美元，與去年持平。本季我們的維持資本比去年更高，這與我們的預算一致。就全年而言，我們預計維持資本將符合預算。

So the quarter is pretty flat with last year. But if you look at year-to-date -- on a year-to-date basis, performance is nicely up. EPS is up 9% over last year, and our adjusted EPS is up 5% on a year-to-date basis versus last year. And as Kim mentioned, while we expect to trend a little bit below budget for the full year, we expect our full-year adjusted EBITDA to be 5% higher than 2023 and our adjusted EPS to be 9% higher than 2023.

因此，本季與去年持平。但如果你看看今年迄今的情況——從今年至今的基礎來看，表現還是不錯的。每股收益比去年增長 9%，調整後每股收益較去年同期增長 5%。正如Kim 所提到的，雖然我們預計全年的預算將略低於預算，但我們預計全年調整後的EBITDA 將比2023 年高出5%，調整後的每股收益將比2023 年高出9 %。

On our balance sheet, we ended the third quarter with $31.7 billion of net debt and 4.1 times net debt to adjusted EBITDA, which is consistent with where we budgeted to end the quarter. Our net debt has decreased $150 million from the beginning of the year, and here's a high-level reconciliation of how that change occurred.

在我們的資產負債表上，第三季末我們的淨負債為 317 億美元，淨債務與調整後 EBITDA 比率為 4.1 倍，這與我們本季末的預算一致。我們的淨債務比年初減少了 1.5 億美元，以下是這項變更發生方式的進階調節表。

We've generated $4.2 billion of cash flow from operations. We spent $1.9 billion in dividends. We've spent $2 billion in total CapEx. That includes growth sustaining and our contributions to our joint ventures.

我們已經從營運中產生了 42 億美元的現金流。我們花了 19 億美元的股息。我們總共花了 20 億美元的資本支出。這包括維持成長以及我們對合資企業的貢獻。

And we've had $50 million approximately of other working capital uses. And that gets you close to the $150 million decrease in net debt for the year.

我們還有大約 5000 萬美元的其他營運資金用途。這樣一來，今年的淨債務就減少了 1.5 億美元。

Now, I'll turn it back to Kim.

現在，我將把它轉回給金。

Okay. Thanks, David. Todd, if you'll come back on, we'll open it up to questions.

好的。謝謝，大衛。托德，如果你回來的話，我們將開放提問。

(Operator Instructions) John Mackay, Goldman Sachs.

（操作員指令）John Mackay，高盛。

Hey, everyone. Thank you for the time. Look, you spent a lot of time again talking about the growth potential that you're seeing coming back across power, et cetera. You've a couple of projects that are floating around, not quite in the backlog yet. I guess we used to call it shadow backlog.

嘿，大家。謝謝你的時間。聽著，您再次花了很多時間談論您看到的透過電力恢復的成長潛力，等等。您有幾個正在進行中的項目，但尚未完全處於積壓狀態。我想我們過去稱之為影子積壓。

I guess I'd just be curious if you could frame up the size of that relative to, let's say, this time last year. And then if you could maybe touch on, in that context, maybe Mississippi Crossing and Trident, that would be great.

我想我只是好奇你是否能確定相對於去年這個時候的規模。然後，如果您可以在這種情況下談論密西西比河穿越和三叉戟，那就太好了。

Sure. I mean, I think as I said earlier, the opportunity set has continued to increase versus -- from the start of this year and even more since this time last year. And so I mean, we don't technically have a shadow backlog. But if we did, I would expect that you would see a big increase in that.

當然。我的意思是，我認為正如我之前所說，與今年年初相比，機會集持續增加，自去年這個時候以來甚至更多。所以我的意思是，從技術上講，我們沒有影子積壓。但如果我們這樣做，我預計您會看到這一數字的大幅增長。

And so those projects arrange a lot of singles and doubles, which are great. I think those projects have less risk, and they are generally built off of our existing network. And they're very nice returns. And then we have some that could be much larger.

所以這些項目安排了很多單打和雙打，這很棒。我認為這些專案風險較小，而且它們通常是建立在我們現有網路的基礎上的。他們的回報非常好。然後我們有一些可能更大的。

But if you look at, for example, the power opportunity, we are talking to power plants in Arizona and Arkansas, in Texas, in Mississippi, in Louisiana, in Wisconsin, in Colorado. And then obviously, we're addressing the Georgia need through the South System 4.

但如果你看看電力機會，我們正在與亞利桑那州和阿肯色州、德克薩斯州、密西西比州、路易斯安那州、威斯康辛州和科羅拉多州的發電廠進行交談。顯然，我們正在透過南方系統 4 來滿足喬治亞州的需求。

Things that you're seeing on the industrial side, you're seeing battery plants and chip plants in Arizona. You're seeing auto plants in Georgia, petrochemical plants in the US. That's driven by the onshoring, that's driven by the CHIPS Act, and that's driven by the fact that we've just got very cheap commodity prices here, so cheap feedstock, for these petrochemical plants.

你在工業方面看到的東西，你在亞利桑那州看到電池廠和晶片廠。你會看到喬治亞州的汽車工廠，美國的石化廠。這是由在岸外包、《CHIPS 法案》推動的，也是由以下事實推動的：我們剛剛在這裡獲得了非常便宜的商品價格，這些石化工廠的原料非常便宜。

On the exports to Mexico, that's driven by power plants. That's driven by near shoring. That's driven by export LNG.

對墨西哥的出口是由發電廠推動的。這是由近岸支撐所推動的。這是由液化天然氣出口所推動的。

We've got CCS opportunities on petroleum products' side. We've got a number of blending opportunities we're working on. There's opportunities on the storage side. As I said today, we -- NGPL added a 10 Bcf storage opportunity. We added our share of that to the backlog.

我們在石油產品方面有 CCS 機會。我們正在研究許多混合機會。儲存方面存在機會。正如我今天所說，我們 NGPL 增加了 10 Bcf 的儲存機會。我們將其中的一部分添加到了待辦事項中。

And so -- and then on natural gas. So our backlog itsef has grown significantly from last year. I don't remember the exact number, but I think it was in the [threes] or below this time last year, and now we're over [five]. So that gives you some sense of the things that we're seeing.

等等——然後是天然氣。因此，我們的積壓訂單比去年有了顯著成長。我不記得確切的數字，但我認為去年這個時候是[三]或以下，現在我們結束了[五]。這讓你對我們所看到的有所了解。

Also since this time last year, we were saying $1 billion to $2 billion a year in expansion CapEx. And we updated that more recently to say $2 billion in expansion CapEx per year. So those are all signs of how we see this opportunity set.

同樣是從去年這個時候開始，我們說每年 10 億至 20 億美元用於擴張資本支出。我們最近更新了這項數據，稱每年的擴張資本支出為 20 億美元。這些都是我們如何看待這個機會的跡象。

On the MSF project, I'll let Sital talk about that in the open season.

關於無國界醫生的項目，我將讓西塔爾在公開賽期間談論這一點。

Yeah, John. This is Sital. So as you -- as we've been talking about the last couple of calls, we've got two open seasons out there, our theme. We've been saying for a while that we've got a need for more molecules to move from west to east.

是的，約翰。這是西塔爾。正如您所說，正如我們一直在談論最近幾次電話會議一樣，我們有兩個開放賽季，這就是我們的主題。一段時間以來，我們一直在說，我們需要更多的分子從西向東移動。

So what you have is two open seasons, one with Mississippi Crossing and one with Trident, that basically is getting molecules to where they're needed. Mississippi Crossing can be scaled up to 2 Bcf to get to the Southeast markets, obviously, to feed some of the Southeast customers that we're working with on South System 4.

所以你有兩個開放季節，一個是密西西比穿越，另一個是三叉戟，這基本上是將分子運送到需要的地方。顯然，Mississippi Crossing 可以擴展到 2 Bcf 以進入東南市場，以滿足我們在南方系統 4 上合作的一些東南客戶的需求。

Trident is a project that gets gas from Katy all the way to the LNG corridor in Port Arthur. And so we're excited about those projects. We're working with our customers. Needless to say, both of them are in kind of a competitive space. So hopefully, we'll have more to share on the next call as it pertains to those.

Trident 是一個將天然氣從凱蒂一直輸送到亞瑟港液化天然氣走廊的計畫。所以我們對這些項目感到興奮。我們正在與客戶合作。不用說，他們都處於競爭的空間。因此，希望我們能在下一次電話會議上分享更多與這些相關的內容。

And they just gave me the number on the backlog. Third quarter last year was [38]. So we've gone from 38 to [51], so that's a 34% increase in the backlog.

他們只是給了我積壓訂單的數量。去年第三季是[38]。所以我們從 38 增加到了 [51]，積壓的數量增加了 34%。

No, that's great color. Appreciate all that. I think just second question, we're going into guidance two months from now. Obviously, I'm not going to ask you on specific numbers or anything.

不，那是很棒的顏色。欣賞這一切。我想這是第二個問題，我們將在兩個月後開始提供指導。顯然，我不會問你具體的數字或任何事情。

But if we look at where '24 has trended versus initial guidance, a big part of that has been commodity softness. We can debate over how much of that is transitory or not, but could you talk about maybe other puts and takes inside the business that are trending better or slightly softer than expected outside of commodity and just, maybe generally, how they'll trend into '25?

但如果我們看看 24 世紀的趨勢與最初的指導相比，其中很大一部分是大宗商品的疲軟。我們可以討論其中有多少是暫時的或不是暫時的，但是您能否談談業務中的其他看跌期權和看跌期權，這些看跌期權和看跌期權的趨勢比大宗商品之外的預期更好或稍微疲軟，也許一般而言，它們將如何趨勢'25？

Sure. So on the natural gas side, obviously, got the commodity impact, and that's impacting gathering volumes. And so we've seen some weakness versus our budget, and you heard Tom address that in his comments on gathering volumes.

當然。因此，在天然氣方面，顯然受到了大宗商品的影響，這也影響了收集量。因此，我們看到了預算方面的一些弱點，您聽到湯姆在關於收集量的評論中談到了這一點。

On the other hand, we have seen huge strength in the transmission assets, and that's on transport contracts, that's on storage, that's on Pal. And so a lot of upside versus our original budget there that's offsetting the downside some of the downside that we see on commodity and the energy of people I guess..

另一方面，我們看到了傳播資產的巨大優勢，這體現在運輸合約、儲存、帕爾等方面。因此，與我們最初的預算相比，有很多上行空間，這抵消了我們在商品和人們的精力上看到的一些下行空間，我猜。

So I think the question, when you start looking into 2025, is going to be around what we expect G&P volumes to be. I think it's kind of too early to talk about that. Still, I think the first half of the year will probably looks a lot like 2024. I think some of these export LNG volumes come on in the back half, whether that's -- I think Corpus has got some volumes coming on.

因此，我認為，當您開始展望 2025 年時，問題將圍繞我們預期的 G&P 數量。我認為現在談論這個還為時過早。儘管如此，我認為今年上半年可能會很像 2024 年。我認為其中一些液化天然氣出口量將在下半年出現，無論是——我認為 Corpus 已經獲得了一些出口量。

I think Golden Pass showed at the end of the year. And then I think there's some placements. So I think with those volumes coming on, that will lead to a stronger environment to some extent on -- and a part of that also depends on what kind of winter we have.

我認為《黃金通行證》是在年底上映的。然後我認為還有一些位置。因此，我認為隨著這些數量的增加，這將在某種程度上導致一個更強大的環境——其中一部分也取決於我們的冬天是什麼樣的。

But I think going into '25, on the other business segments, I'd say products and terminals have rate escalators. We've got some upside on Jones Act, interest rates are obviously going to be a benefit to a expansion projects, getting our RNG facility stabilized and, then -- but we'll just have to see where GMP comes out and where we come out on commodity prices. And then I think cash taxes will probably go up a little bit, but we still will not be overly significant cash out payer.

但我認為進入 25 年，在其他業務領域，我想說產品和終端都有費率自動扶梯。我們在《瓊斯法案》上有一些好處，利率顯然有利於擴建項目，使我們的 RNG 設施穩定下來，然後——但我們只需要看看 GMP 的結果和我們的進展商品價格。然後我認為現金稅可能會增加一點，但我們仍然不會成為過於重要的現金支付者。

No, that's fantastic. Appreciate the time.

不，那太棒了。珍惜時間。

Michael Blum, Wells Fargo.

麥可布魯姆，富國銀行。

Thanks. Good afternoon, everybody. I wanted to just stay on the topic of the percolating gas demand, gas projects. Given just the growing potential backlog of projects that you're looking at, where do you see CapEx trending over the next few years?

謝謝。大家下午好。我只想繼續討論滲透天然氣需求和天然氣計畫的議題。鑑於您正在關注的項目的潛在積壓量不斷增加，您認為未來幾年的資本支出趨勢如何？

I know you, last quarter, raised it from $1 billion to $2 billion up to $2 billion plus or minus of growth CapEx. But do you see that trending even higher over time? And any idea of where that could go?

我知道上個季度，您將其從 10 億美元提高到 20 億美元，加上或減去成長資本支出高達 20 億美元。但您是否發現隨著時間的推移，這一趨勢會變得更高？知道它會去哪裡嗎？

Okay. So Michael, I'd say it could. I'd say, at this point, there's no change to our roughly $2 billion per year. As I said, that -- when we say roughly $2 billion, that can exceed $2 billion. That could be $2 billion, $3 billion or something like that, I think.

好的。所以邁克爾，我想說可以。我想說的是，目前我們每年大約 20 億美元的支出沒有改變。正如我所說，當我們說大約 20 億美元時，它可能會超過 20 億美元。我認為這可能是 20 億美元、30 億美元或類似的數字。

And CapEx can be lumpy depending on the timing of that. So you got to keep that in mind. But it's something that we review every quarter and that we reviewed before coming into the call this quarter. And we'll do so in January of next year or so.

根據時間的不同，資本支出可能會很不穩定。所以你必須記住這一點。但我們每季都會審查這一點，並且在本季度進行電話會議之前我們都會審查這一點。我們將在明年一月左右這樣做。

We try to keep you up to date on that, but no change at this point. I'd point out that with the cash flow that we generate, we can fund roughly $2.5 billion per year in CapEx out of our cash flow.

我們盡力讓您了解最新情況，但目前沒有任何變化。我想指出的是，憑藉我們產生的現金流，我們每年可以從現金流中籌集約 25 億美元的資本支出。

And then in addition to that, we've got some balance sheet capacity, should we need it, to be able to fund projects and bring down leverage as they come on. So I think we're in good shape in terms of being able to fund projects if we were lucky enough to take that number higher.

除此之外，如果我們需要的話，我們還擁有一定的資產負債表能力，能夠為專案提供資金並在專案啟動時降低槓桿率。因此，我認為，如果我們夠幸運，能夠提高這個數字，那麼我們在為專案提供資金方面處於良好狀態。

Got it. That's great color. Thanks. And then my other question was really about expected returns. So obviously, the backlog has lots of different projects, different sizes, types of projects.

知道了。那顏色真棒。謝謝。然後我的另一個問題實際上是關於預期回報。顯然，積壓的項目有很多不同的項目、不同規模、不同類型的項目。

But let me just talk about -- trend wise, are you seeing better returns on this project? It seems like the South System 4 expansion was a really attractive multiple versus your total backlog. So just wondering if you're seeing that trend overall. Thanks.

但讓我談談——從趨勢角度來看，您是否看到這個項目有更好的回報？與您的總積壓訂單相比，South System 4 擴充似乎是一個非常有吸引力的倍數。所以想知道您是否看到了總體趨勢。謝謝。

I mean, I think the returns that we are getting on these projects are pretty consistent with what we've achieved historically and what we've targeted. So different projects come at different returns depending on how long it takes you to bring a project on.

我的意思是，我認為我們在這些項目上獲得的回報與我們歷史上所取得的成就和我們的目標非常一致。因此，不同的專案會帶來不同的回報，這取決於您啟動專案所需的時間。

The multiple is likely going to be better to get to the same return because you've just got that -- you've got that CapEx drag on the front end. But no, South System 4 is not substantially different than the projects that we've done historically.

倍數可能會更好地獲得相同的回報，因為你剛剛得到了這一點——你已經在前端受到了資本支出的拖累。但事實並非如此，South System 4 與我們歷史上完成的專案並沒有本質上的不同。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Theresa Chen, Barclays.

特蕾莎·陳，巴克萊銀行。

Can you hear me now? Sorry about that. So looking at your Mississippi Crossing project, can you give us some color on the commercial drivers that would allow Kinder to win this project, assuming the binding open season is successful? Do you think this is, in part, driven by customers' desire to diversify sources of supply beyond the typical Northeast Mid-Atlantic corridor?

現在你能聽到我說話嗎？對此感到抱歉。那麼，看看您的密西西比穿越項目，您能否給我們一些關於商業驅動因素的信息，假設綁定開放賽季成功，這些驅動因素將使金德贏得該項目？您是否認為這在一定程度上是由於客戶希望在典型的東北大西洋中部走廊之外實現供應來源多元化？

Theresa, good question. One, I think as we've been saying before, with the advent of all this LNG coming on in the Gulf Coast, I think the markets are recognizing the need for incremental supply. And this is not only diversification of supply, but actual access to physical molecules to be able to handle the upcoming growth. And so I think reaching back to a point of liquidity where you have access to different basins in addition to the existing basins is the play.

特蕾莎，好問題。第一，我認為正如我們之前所說，隨著墨西哥灣沿岸所有液化天然氣的出現，我認為市場正在認識到增加供應的必要性。這不僅是供應的多樣化，而且是實際獲得物理分子的機會，以應對即將到來的成長。因此，我認為回到流動性點，除了現有盆地之外，你還可以訪問不同的盆地。

Got it. And then turning to a different part of your portfolio. With the recent success of one of your competitors in spinning out their liquids business, any thoughts on separating your products business from your natural gas assets to potentially reflect better value in each?

知道了。然後轉向你的作品集的不同部分。隨著您的競爭對手之一最近成功分拆其液體業務，您是否有想過將您的產品業務與天然氣資產分開，以潛在地反映各自的更好價值？

Yeah. I mean, I would say we -- the businesses that we own and operate, we think there are strategics to owning together. We get benefits from owning natural gas and products pipeline, for example, on the integrity side. Our integrity team is one that goes across. On the project management side, we get benefits from that.

是的。我的意思是，我想說的是，我們──我們擁有和經營的企業，我們認為共同擁有是有策略意義的。例如，我們從擁有天然氣和產品管道中獲益，在誠信方面。我們的誠信團隊是一支跨界團​​隊。在專案管理方面，我們從中受益。

And so I think there would be certain dissynergies if you span those businesses out. I also don't think that if you look at a sum of the parts, where we're trading today, if you peel those businesses apart and look at them versus where you look at the company together, there's a significant discount.

因此，我認為，如果將這些業務分散開來，將會產生一定的不協同效應。我也不認為，如果你看一下我們今天交易的各個部分的總和，如果你把這些業務分開並看它們，而不是一起看公司，就會有很大的折扣。

And so there's not a big incentive to incur transaction costs, dissynergies probably on the G&A side, and dissynergies potentially on the debt side. That just depends on where interest rates are at the time you would do a transaction like that, that that would make sense right now.

因此，沒有很大的動機去承擔交易成本，一般行政費用方面可能會出現不協同效應，債務方面也可能會出現不協同效應。這僅取決於您進行此類交易時的利率，這現在是有意義的。

It's a very market-dependent transaction. And so you've got to have very strong views about where the companies would trade in the aftermarket that are significantly different from sum of the parts in order to justify taking on that kind of risk of spending -- of breaking up a company.

這是一項非常依賴市場的交易。因此，你必須對公司在售後市場上的交易位置有非常強烈的看法，這些看法與各個部分的總和有很大不同，以便證明承擔這種支出風險（拆分公司）的合理性。

Thank you very much.

非常感謝。

Zack Van Everen, TPH.

扎克·範·埃弗倫，TPH。

Hey, guys. Thanks for taking my question. Maybe to start, could you guys touch on the recent decision of the US courts on your Cumberland projects and what the process is there going forward?

嘿，夥計們。感謝您提出我的問題。首先，你們能否談談美國法院最近對你們坎伯蘭計畫的裁決以及接下來的程序是什麼？

Yeah, sure. And so as you know, Sixth Circuit States, our army corp, and our Tennessee air permits -- or water permits, what that effectively does is it prevents us from starting construction on that project. We believe that decision is wrong. We believe the analysis is flawed on multiple levels, including the standard that they applied for the stay.

是的，當然。如您所知，第六巡迴賽各州、我們的陸軍公司和我們的田納西州航空許可證或水許可證，這實際上阻止了我們開始該專案的建設。我們認為這個決定是錯誤的。我們認為該分析在多個層面上都存在缺陷，包括他們適用的住宿標準。

The [Hut] project where we are delivering natural gas to a natural gas power plant that is converting from coal. And so here, the FERC found that that project would result in a reduction of greenhouse gas emissions. So it would be good from a greenhouse gas perspective.

在 [Hut] 專案中，我們將天然氣輸送到由煤炭轉化的天然氣發電廠。因此，聯邦能源監管委員會 (FERC) 發現該項目將減少溫室氣體排放。因此，從溫室氣體的角度來看，這將是一件好事。

Over the last 10 years, our permits, whether that's federal, state, local, have been challenged by anti-fossil fuel opponents. Regardless of the benefits to the society, we have been very successful in winning those court challenges.

在過去的十年裡，我們的許可證，無論是聯邦、州或地方的許可證，都受到了反化石燃料反對者的挑戰。無論對社會有什麼好處，我們都非常成功地贏得了這些法庭挑戰。

And recently, on the DC Court of Appeals, they upheld our FERC permits on two separate projects. So we were also successful in other courts on state and local permits related to those projects.

最近，在華盛頓特區上訴法院，他們維持了我們對兩個獨立項目的 FERC 許可。因此，我們也在其他法院成功獲得了與這些項目相關的州和地方許可。

And so we've had -- this isn't something that is new for us. But we're working with the impacted agencies, the army corp, and TDEC to determine next steps. And I think both of those agencies are going to vigorously defend those permits.

因此，這對我們來說並不是什麼新鮮事。但我們正在與受影響的機構、陸軍和 TDEC 合作，以確定後續步驟。我認為這兩個機構都將大力捍衛這些許可證。

Perfect. That makes sense. And then maybe one on the FID on Gulf Coast Express. I think when looking back to Permian Highway, that took about a year. Is that a similar timeline you guys are looking at for this expansion?

完美的。這是有道理的。然後也許是墨西哥灣快車的最終投資決定 (FID) 中的一項。我想當回顧二疊紀公路時，這花了大約一年的時間。你們正在為這個資料片尋找類似的時間表嗎？

Permian Highway took about 19 months. Here, we're probably conservatively saying 22 months, given all the -- there's quite a bit of demand on compression and some of the electrical components. That being said, we're targeting a mid-'26 in-service date. So not quite the 19 months on PHP, but we don't see it being that far out of the realm.

二疊紀公路耗時約 19 個月。在這裡，我們可能保守地說是 22 個月，因為對壓縮和一些電氣組件有相當多的需求。話雖這麼說，我們的目標是 26 年中期投入使用。雖然 PHP 的 19 個月還沒到，但我們不認為它超出了這個範圍。

Got it, makes sense. Appreciate the time, guys.

明白了，有道理。珍惜時間，夥計們。

Jean Ann Salisbury, Bank of America.

讓安·索爾茲伯里，美國銀行。

Hi. Between the Gulf Coast expansion in Blackcomb, there's a lot of gas heading to the Agua Dulce area. Is there a risk that there won't be enough demand in the area in 2026, especially if LNG projects get delayed? And how do you see the GCX expansion is positioned for that risk?

你好。在布萊克科姆的墨西哥灣沿岸擴張期間，有大量天然氣流向阿瓜杜爾塞地區。2026 年該地區是否存在需求不足的風險，尤其是如果液化天然氣計畫延遲的話？您如何看待 GCX 的擴張計畫來應對這項風險？

So good, very good question. I think, look, if there's any delay to the demand centers, particularly the LNG demand centers, could there be some pricing exposure? Yes. That being said, for us, part of the -- our discussion points have been we've got some downstream optionality in our networks for our customers.

很好，非常好的問題。我認為，如果需求中心，特別是液化天然氣需求中心有任何延遲，是否會有一些定價風險？是的。話雖這麼說，對我們來說，我們的討論要點之一是我們在網路中為客戶提供了一些下游選擇。

And so there is that embedded optionality. At the end of the day, when you have that kind of variability, there's going to be some volatility, which storage assets come into play. And really, that's where I think that becomes increasingly important as we move towards that time frame. It's a possibility, but not a probability. We don't know yet.

所以就有了嵌入的可選性。歸根結底，當存在這種可變性時，就會出現一些波動，而儲存資產就會發揮作用。事實上，我認為隨著我們朝著這個時間框架邁進，這一點變得越來越重要。這是一種可能性，但不是機率。我們還不知道。

And from our standpoint, we have long-term contracts shippers.

從我們的角度來看，我們擁有長期合約托運人。

Yeah. So we've got long-term contracts with the shippers. I always point out that there's a potential for us to profit on our Texas Intrastate business where we do buy and sell some gas, and we try to back to back those. But sometimes, we are in the daily markets.

是的。所以我們與托運人簽訂了長期合約。我總是指出，我們有潛力從我們的德州內業務中獲利，我們確實買賣一些天然氣，並且我們試圖背對背支持這些業務。但有時，我們是在日常市場中。

And so to the extent that that gas gets hit at Agua Dulce and we've got capacity on our pipeline, we can buy effectively cheap gas. And so that will be an opportunity for us.

因此，只要天然氣在阿瓜杜爾塞受到衝擊，並且我們的管道有能力，我們就可以有效地購買便宜的天然氣。所以這對我們來說將是一個機會。

I think the other thing on that is we do have a project that we've been working on to potentially expand our pipeline systems from Agua Dulce up in [Cadian]. And so that could create an opportunity for that project just depending on how long that dynamic was anticipated to persist.

我認為另一件事是，我們確實有一個項目，我們一直在致力於將我們的管道系統從阿瓜杜爾塞擴展到[卡迪安]。因此，這可能會為該專案創造機會，具體取決於這種動態預計會持續多久。

That makes sense. Thank you. And then at your Investor Day, you mentioned that you have 200 Bcf of market rate storage. Bringing that up to current market rates is going to be a tailwind. Is that still a tailwind that you see over the next couple of years? Is that mainly still below current rates, if that make sense?

這是有道理的。謝謝。然後在投資者日，您提到您有 200 Bcf 的市場利率儲存。將其提高到當前的市場利率將是一個順風車。未來幾年這仍然是你看到的順風車嗎？如果有道理的話，這主要還是低於當前利率嗎？

Yeah. It's about -- 25% of our storage is market-based rates. Some of that, we have rolled; and some of it, we still have to roll. But in terms of the strength of the storage market, the strength of the storage market is continuing and rates, I think, are continuing to get a little bit stronger.

是的。我們的儲存中有 25% 是基於市場的費率。其中一些我們已經推出了；其中一些，我們仍然需要滾動。但就儲存市場的實力而言，儲存市場的實力正在持續，而且我認為，價格正在繼續變得更強一些。

On Monday, we talked about a three-year deal that we've done. That was a high watermark for us on the storage side that was in [five turns] service. So I mean, very valuable storage, but we did hit a high watermark.

週一，我們討論了我們已經達成的一項為期三年的協議。對於我們在[五轉]服務的儲存方面來說，這是一個高水位線。所以我的意思是，非常有價值的儲存空間，但我們確實達到了高水位線。

So I think that's still going to be a tailwind. But those contracts probably roll over a three-year period, roughly. So you probably roll a third of those a year.

所以我認為這仍然是一個順風車。但這些合約的期限可能大致為三年。所以你每年可能會滾動其中的三分之一。

Great. That's helpful. That's all for me. Thanks a lot.

偉大的。這很有幫助。這就是我的全部。多謝。

Neal Dingmann, Truist Securities.

尼爾‧丁曼 (Neal Dingmann)，Truist 證券公司。

[Ned for Neal]. First -- my first question, just more general on backlog, Kim. I'm wondering, is it fair to assume that we should think of your backlog maybe staying around that $5 billion, given, number one, it seems like you have a lot of opportunities you discussed. But you also have, I know, a number of projects that should come on to service in the coming quarters. I just wonder how you would expect us to think about this.

[奈德換尼爾]。首先——我的第一個問題，只是關於積壓的一般性問題，Kim。我想知道，假設我們應該考慮您的積壓訂單可能會保持在 50 億美元左右，這是否公平，因為第一，您似乎有很多討論過的機會。但我知道，你們還有一些項目應該在未來幾季投入使用。我只是想知道您希望我們如何考慮這個問題。

Yeah. We haven't tried to do a roll forward of our backlog yet, Neal. So I can't really tell you exactly directionally where we're going. As I said, it's increased from 3.8% a year ago.

是的。尼爾，我們還沒有嘗試前滾我們的積壓工作。所以我無法準確地告訴你我們要去哪裡。正如我所說，它比一年前的 3.8% 有所增加。

We do have projects rolling off, but I think we -- there's a potential to add some significant projects in addition to, I think, singles and doubles. And to the extent that we add those really significant projects, I think there's potential that that backlog grows.

我們確實有一些項目正在進行中，但我認為，除了單打和雙打之外，我們還有可能增加一些重要的項目。只要我們加入那些真正重要的項目，我認為積壓的項目就有可能增加。

That's great to hear. And then just secondly, I know a bit smaller, just anything you could add on the CO2 portfolio, specifically. I know I think last quarter, you mentioned just likely no material change in capital spend there.

很高興聽到這個消息。其次，我知道一些較小的內容，具體來說就是您可以添加到二氧化碳投資組合中的任何內容。我知道我認為上個季度，您提到那裡的資本支出可能沒有重大變化。

I'm just -- will this continue to be the case? I know you've got what -- given the development of SACROC and North (inaudible), different things, how should we think about that portfolio?

我只是——這種情況會繼續下去嗎？我知道你已經知道了——鑑於 SACROC 和 North（聽不清楚）的發展，不同的事情，我們應該如何考慮該投資組合？

Yeah. I think Tom mentioned in his comments that we just recently -- well, this quarter -- this morning, our Board approved about $150 million of projects in CO2, and those are really new CO2 floods. And on peak production, that's going to get us an incremental 5,000 barrels a day which is a pretty significant amount on -- as a percentage basis of the existing production. So Anthony?

是的。我想湯姆在他的評論中提到，我們最近——嗯，這個季度——今天早上，我們的董事會批准了大約 1.5 億美元的二氧化碳項目，這些都是真正的新二氧化碳洪水。在產量高峰時，這將使我們每天增加 5,000 桶，相對於現有產量的百分比來說，這是一個相當大的數字。那麼安東尼呢？

On an annual basis, we're spending probably $200 million a year on expansion. So I think that just rolls into that program. So I wouldn't expect a material increase at least in the near term.

每年，我們大約花費 2 億美元進行擴張。所以我認為這只是進入該計劃。因此，我預計至少在短期內不會出現實質成長。

Very good. Thank you, both, for the details.

非常好。謝謝兩位提供詳細資料。

Jeremy Tonet, JPMorgan.

傑里米·託內特，摩根大通。

Hi, good afternoon. I also wanted to give a belated happy birthday to David.

嗨，下午好。我還想給大衛一個遲到的生日快樂。

Do you know how old he is?

你知道他幾歲嗎？

I don't think I'm allowed to ask that. But I just want to kind of pick up on a couple of pieces that were touched on a bit during the call. Kim, I recognize this is a kind of an impossible question. But just at a high level, when we think about operating leverage for Kinder, there's waiting capacity on the gathering side, there's waiting capacity on the pipe side.

我認為我不被允許問這個問題。但我只想談談在電話會議期間觸及的一些內容。金，我知道這是一個不可能的問題。但就高水準而言，當我們考慮 Kinder 的營運槓桿時，收集端有等待容量，管道端有等待容量。

And just want to get a sense for, I guess, capital-light growth there. If the G&P really takes up, if there's a coal on gas, higher gas prices. If the peakers are really pulling because they have to run more given high power prices, how does that, I guess, impact KMI?

我想，我只是想了解那裡的輕資本成長。如果天然氣價格真的上漲，如果煤炭改氣，天然氣價格就會更高。如果調峰者確實因為高電價而必須運行更多電力而拉動，我猜這會對 KMI 產生什麼影響？

So I think there is capacity on some of the gathering, especially in the Eagle Ford, we'd have to add some processing in the Eagle Ford. But from a pipe standpoint, you've got plenty in the Eagle Ford. In the Haynesville, we've got a big backbone, but we'll need to add some laterals, potentially some treating depending on what's going on there. I think laterals probably required in the Bakken. But again, pretty efficient expansions on the gathering and processing side.

因此，我認為某些收集有能力，特別是在 Eagle Ford，我們必須在 Eagle Ford 中添加一些處理。但從煙鬥的角度來看，Eagle Ford 有很多煙鬥。在海恩斯維爾，我們有一個很大的骨幹，但我們需要添加一些支線，可能需要根據那裡發生的情況進行一些處理。我認為巴肯可能需要側支線。但同樣，在收集和處理方面的擴展非常有效。

On the on the transmission pipes, those are running pretty full as you've seen from some of the utilization that we presented at our conference. And so there, I think more of the upside is going to come as contracts roll, so it doesn't necessarily -- and then as we can provide some ancillary services around volatility events, I think is where you'd see some tailwinds on those pipes that run at pretty good utilization.

在傳輸管道上，正如您從我們在會議上介紹的一些利用率中看到的那樣，這些管道運行得相當滿。因此，我認為隨著合約的滾動，更多的上行空間將會出現，所以這不一定——然後，由於我們可以圍繞波動事件提供一些輔助服務，我認為這就是你會看到一些順風的地方這些管道的利用率相當高。

Got it. That's helpful there. And then I just want to kind of to touch on a little bit more as it relates to the power demand, large customers as well as data centers potentially. How far upstream could you guys see Kinder going? Could Kinder provide behind-the-meter gas solutions, be it providing the gas or if there was a contract structure that was attractive, even providing the power itself with the gas generation.

知道了。這很有幫助。然後我想多談一點，因為它與電力需求、大客戶以及潛在的資料中心有關。你們能看到金德向上游多遠？金德能否提供用戶側天然氣解決方案，無論是提供天然氣還是是否有吸引力的合約結構，甚至透過天然氣發電本身提供電力。

Just wondering how you think about the opportunity set here?

只是想知道您如何看待這裡提供的機會？

Yes, sure. I mean providing gas directly to a power plant is we can do that whether it's behind the meter or in front of the meter. I mean you're asking is it going to be part of the transmission grid or not. I mean that doesn't really impact us so we can provide the gap in either scenario on that. We've talked about from time to time could you have put a power plant next to one of our storage facilities.

是的，當然。我的意思是直接向發電廠提供天然氣是我們可以做到的，無論是在儀表後面還是在儀表前面。我的意思是你問它是否會成為輸電網的一部分。我的意思是，這並沒有真正影響我們，所以我們可以在這兩種情況下提供差距。我們不時討論過是否可以在我們的儲存設施旁邊建造一座發電廠。

And that would give that power plant very high reliability. And then it would also give great reliability potentially to a data center that was located near. We don't have any concrete really plans on that at this point, but it's something that we are looking at.

這將使該發電廠具有非常高的可靠性。然後，它還可以為附近的資料中心提供巨大​​的可靠性。目前我們還沒有任何具體的計劃，但我們正在考慮這一點。

Got it. That's helpful. Thank you for that.

知道了。這很有幫助。謝謝你。

Keith Stanley, Wolfe Research.

基思‧史丹利，沃爾夫研究公司。

Hi, thank you. Just two clarification questions. So -- the first one, I think you said you could fund $2.5 billion a year of growth CapEx out of cash flow. Would you be comfortable even going higher than $2.5 billion a year on a recurring basis? Or do you view $2.5 billion as kind of a cap within your financial framework?

你好，謝謝。只是兩個澄清問題。所以，第一個，我想你說過你可以從現金流中為每年 25 億美元的成長資本支出提供資金。即使每年的經常性支出超過 25 億美元，您是否願意？或者您認為 25 億美元是您財務框架內的上限嗎？

As I said, right now, we're at 4.1 times debt to EBITDA. We expect to end the year around 4 times debt the high end of our range on debt to EBITDA is 4.5 times. Every 0.1 is roughly $700-ish million. And so I mean, you could -- we could debt fund, if you will, some incremental CapEx as long as we are sure that over time, based on the cash flow that these projects would bring on. And I think based on the returns that we target, that would occur, that debt-to-EBITDA would come back down over time.

正如我所說，目前我們的債務是 EBITDA 的 4.1 倍。我們預計今年底債務約為 4 倍，我們的債務與 EBITDA 範圍的上限為 4.5 倍。每 0.1 大約相當於 7 億美元左右。所以我的意思是，如果你願意的話，我們可以債務資助一些增量資本支出，只要我們確信隨著時間的推移，根據這些項目將帶來的現金流。我認為，根據我們設定的目標回報率，債務與 EBITDA 的比率會隨著時間的推移而下降。

And so that's something that we can do. The other thing is -- I mean, our view is when we -- good return projects, we can find capital for. And so if there were some really, really large projects, we could also get partners on those. So I don't see a problem being able to fund good projects with good returns, whether it's 100% on us or partnering with private equity or somebody else.

這就是我們可以做的事情。另一件事是——我的意思是，我們的觀點是，當我們——回報良好的項目時，我們可以找到資金。因此，如果有一些非常非常大的項目，我們也可以在這些項目上找到合作夥伴。因此，我不認為能夠為具有良好回報的好項目提供資金，無論是 100% 的我們還是與私募股權公司或其他人合作。

We think we can maintain a strong balance sheet and still accommodate our needs for CapEx.

我們認為我們可以保持強勁的資產負債表，並且仍然滿足我們對資本支出的需求。

Thanks. Makes sense. Second one, just on this. I wanted to follow up on the courts question. I mean some of your peers have been affected a little more, but do you see more risk generally with court reviews on projects post the Chevron decision?

謝謝。有道理。第二個，就這個。我想跟進法庭的問題。我的意思是，您的一些同行受到的影響更大一些，但是您是否認為雪佛龍裁決後法院對項目的審查總體上存在更大的風險？

And are there different things you can do on permitting strategy timing of when you deploy capital, thinking about return requirements to deal with it if the courts are becoming a little more problematic on new infrastructure?

如果法院在新基礎設施方面遇到更多問題，您是否可以做一些不同的事情來允許部署資本的策略時機，考慮處理它的回報要求？

What I would say with respect to the Chevron Doctor and this decision is I don't think the Chevron Dockman played any part in the decision we got on Cumberland. And I think that this is something that we've been seeing. I mean, even if you go back PHP. I think we had five or six separate matters that got challenged that we were going through, PHP, and we have like 14 different hearings that we were successful on. And so I think this is something that we have been seeing for a while.

關於雪佛蘭醫生和這一決定，我想說的是，我認為雪佛蘭 Dockman 在我們對坎伯蘭的決定中沒有發揮任何作用。我認為這是我們已經看到的事情。我的意思是，即使你回到 PHP。我認為我們正在經歷五到六個不同的問題，PHP，我們有大約 14 場不同的聽證會，但我們都取得了成功。所以我認為這是我們已經看到了一段時間的事情。

Yes, there are things that we can do to try to make the situation better. I think as we work through permits not sufficient just to get a permit. We have to make sure that we're covering all the bases and doing all the work necessary to try to make these -- the permits that we receive defensible in court. And I think that -- I don't see it right now being more difficult than what we've seen in the past. I think people should expect that we're going to get challenged and that we're going to work that into our strategy, we're going to work that into how we deploy capital, and we're going to figure out how to overcome that as we do these projects just as we have for the last 10 years.

是的，我們可以採取一些措施來改善情況。我認為，當我們透過許可證進行工作時，僅僅獲得許可證是不夠的。我們必須確保我們涵蓋了所有基礎並做了所有必要的工作，以確保我們獲得的許可證在法庭上是可以辯護的。我認為，我認為現在的情況並不比我們過去看到的更困難。我認為人們應該預料到我們將面臨挑戰，我們將把它納入我們的策略，我們將把它納入我們如何部署資本，我們將找出如何克服挑戰正如我們過去 10 年所做的那樣。

Thank you.

謝謝。

I'm showing no further questions at this time.

我目前沒有提出任何進一步的問題。

Okay. Well, thank you all for joining us this afternoon and have a good evening.

好的。好的，謝謝大家今天下午加入我們，祝大家晚上愉快。

This concludes today's call. Thank you for your participation. You may disconnect at this time.

今天的電話會議到此結束。感謝您的參與。此時您可以斷開連線。