伊塔烏聯合銀行 (ITUB) 2023 Q1 法說會逐字稿

Hello. Good morning, everyone. My name is Renato Lulia, Group Head of Investor Relations and Market Intelligence at Itaú Unibanco. Thank you for participating in our video conference to talk about our earnings for the first quarter of 2023, which we are broadcasting live from our office at Faria Lima Avenue in Sao Paulo.

你好。大家，早安。我叫雷納托·盧利亞 (Renato Lulia)，Itaú Unibanco 投資者關係和市場情報部門主管。感謝您參加我們的視頻會議，討論我們 2023 年第一季度的收入，我們正在聖保羅法里亞利馬大道的辦公室進行現場直播。

Today's event will be divided in 2 parts. In the first, Milton will explain our performance and earnings for the first quarter of 2023. Next, we'll have a Q&A session, during which analysts and investors will be able to interact directly with us. Now I'd like to give some instructions to make the most of this meeting today. For those of you watching via our website, there are 3 audio options on the screen. The entire content in Portuguese, the entire content in English or the original audio.

今天的活動將分為兩個部分。首先，Milton 將解釋我們 2023 年第一季度的業績和收益。接下來，我們將進行問答環節，在此期間分析師和投資者將能夠直接與我們互動。現在我想提出一些指示，以充分利用今天的這次會議。對於那些通過我們網站觀看的人，屏幕上有 3 個音頻選項。全部內容為葡萄牙語，全部內容為英語或原始音頻。

In the first 2 options, we will have simultaneous translation. To choose your option, just click on the flag on the top left corner of your screen. Questions can also be sent via WhatsApp. To do so, for those of you watching on the website, just click on the button on the screen or simply send a message to the number, +5511-98993-1132. The presentation we'll be making today is available for download on the hot side screen and as usual on our Investor Relations website.

在前兩個選項中，我們將提供同聲翻譯。要選擇您的選項，只需單擊屏幕左上角的標誌即可。問題也可以通過 WhatsApp 發送。為此，對於那些在網站上觀看的人，只需單擊屏幕上的按鈕或只需向號碼 +5511-98993-1132 發送消息即可。我們今天要做的演示文稿可以在熱側屏幕上以及像往常一樣在我們的投資者關係網站上下載。

I now hand over to Milton, who will begin the earnings presentation, then I'll be back to moderate the Q&A session. Milton, the floor is yours.

我現在將任務交給米爾頓，他將開始收益演示，然後我將回來主持問答環節。米爾頓，地板是你的。

Thank you, Renato. Good morning, everyone. It's a pleasure to have you here for our first quarter of 2023 earnings presentation. Our goal is to make an objective presentation focusing on earnings. Since on June 15, we will host Itaú Day 2023, which will be the right occasion to share with you a lot more about our strategy and our business development. We will talk about client centricity and digital and cultural transformation. We'll go deeper on several topics that we've been talking a lot about with you. The recurring managerial result was BRL 8.4 billion this quarter, a quarter-on-quarter increase of [tens] to a consolidated ROE of 20.7%, representing an increase of 1.4 percentage points and ROE of 21.1% in Brazil. Financial margin with clients was BRL 24 billion, down 0.7 percentage point quarter-over-quarter. But it's worth mentioning the seasonality of the first quarter, as we can see in the historical series since it has fewer calendar days.

謝謝你，雷納托。大家，早安。很高興您來到這裡參加我們的 2023 年第一季度收益發布會。我們的目標是客觀地介紹收益。自 6 月 15 日起，我們將舉辦 2023 年伊塔烏日，這將是與您分享更多有關我們的戰略和業務發展的最佳時機。我們將討論以客戶為中心以及數字和文化轉型。我們將更深入地討論我們與您經常討論的幾個主題。本季度經常性管理成果為 84 億雷亞爾，環比增長數十，綜合 ROE 為 20.7%，較巴西提高 1.4 個百分點，ROE 為 21.1%。客戶財務利潤為 240 億雷亞爾，環比下降 0.7 個百分點。但值得一提的是第一季度的季節性，正如我們在歷史系列中看到的那樣，因為它的日曆天數較少。

The cost of credit was BRL 9.1 billion, down 7% quarter-over-quarter. And one of the positives is that our nonperforming loans over 90 days remained stable at 2.9%, which is consistent with what I've been talking about for the last few quarters. I'll provide more details on this topic in the next slides. Finally, the efficiency ratio on a consolidated basis was 39.8%, a drop of 1.7 percentage points, remaining below 40% for the first time in history.

信貸成本為 91 億雷亞爾，環比下降 7%。積極的一面是，我們 90 天以上的不良貸款率穩定在 2.9%，這與我過去幾個季度一直在談論的情況一致。我將在下一張幻燈片中提供有關此主題的更多詳細信息。最後，綜合效率率為39.8%，下降1.7個百分點，歷史首次低於40%。

This clearly shows that our journey has been consistent. It shows sustainable performance and top-notch results in all indicators. The credit portfolio showed signs of a slowdown, also in line with what I've been saying. The individuals loan portfolio grew 0.9% in the quarter, below what we had been growing in previous quarters, but still posts a year-on-year growth of 16%. The SMEs loan portfolio grew 9.2% in the first quarter of '23 versus the first quarter of '22 and was down slightly by 2.2% on a quarter-on-quarter basis, in line with the bank's risk management measures. The total portfolio in Brazil grew 11.2% in the first quarter of 2023 versus the first quarter of 2022 and 0.6% on a quarter-on-quarter basis. The corporate loan portfolio grew 1.8% in the quarter.

這清楚地表明我們的旅程是一致的。它在所有指標中都顯示出可持續的績效和一流的結果。信貸投資組合顯示出放緩跡象，也與我一直所說的一致。本季度個人貸款組合增長 0.9%，低於前幾個季度的增長水平，但同比仍增長 16%。與2022年第一季度相比，23年第一季度中小企業貸款組合增長了9.2%，環比小幅下降2.2%，這與銀行的風險管理措施一致。 2023 年第一季度巴西投資組合總額較 2022 年第一季度增長 11.2%，環比增長 0.6%。本季度企業貸款組合增長 1.8%。

In Latin America, the portfolio grew 11.7% or 10.4% excluding the FX effect. It's still a solid growth, but at a slower pace than we had been posted in previous quarters since we have been more cautious in light of the current macro scenario. In the last quarters, we talked a lot about the individuals and retail portfolios. But I know that the market concern now is the corporate loan portfolio. There are concerns about the prolonged interest rate cycle and its effects on the bank's portfolio and how prepared the bank is to face a more adverse macro scenario when we look into the future.

在拉丁美洲，投資組合增長了 11.7% 或 10.4%（排除匯率影響）。這仍然是一個穩健的增長，但增速比我們前幾個季度公佈的速度要慢，因為我們鑑於當前的宏觀形勢更加謹慎。在過去的幾個季度中，我們談論了很多有關個人和零售投資組合的內容。但我知道現在市場關注的是企業貸款組合。人們擔心利率週期延長及其對銀行投資組合的影響，以及當我們展望未來時銀行是否準備好面對更不利的宏觀情景。

So we brought some figures that we felt would be important to share with you. We classify our loan portfolio into industries according to their volatility. In 2014, which was a snapshot taken just before the credit crunch event of 2015 and 2016, during which we faced a very complex time in the market, especially for large corporate clients. 36% of our portfolio was concentrated in higher volatility segments, which are shorter-cycle segments, such as commodities, and therefore, generate higher risk in adverse scenarios.

因此，我們帶來了一些我們認為與您分享很重要的數據。我們根據貸款組合的波動性將其分類為行業。 2014 年是 2015 年和 2016 年信貸緊縮事件之前的一個快照，在此期間，我們在市場上面臨著非常複雜的時期，特別是對於大型企業客戶而言。我們的投資組合 36% 集中在波動性較高的細分市場，這些細分市場週期較短，例如​​大宗商品，因此在不利情況下會產生較高的風險。

Today, only 17% of our portfolio is concentrated in higher volatility industries. And we've achieved this by rebalancing the portfolio over the past years. The Wholesale portfolio has grown by more than BRL 100 billion in recent years. But this growth has been focused on clients with higher risk quality and industry diversification, which has produced important results in portfolio management.

如今，我們的投資組合中只有 17% 集中在波動性較高的行業。我們通過過去幾年重新平衡投資組合實現了這一目標。近年來，批發投資組合增長了超過 1000 億雷亞爾。但這種增長主要集中在風險質量較高和行業多元化的客戶，這在投資組合管理方面產生了重要成果。

The second indicator shows the concentration ratio of the 10 largest debtors to the stockholders' equity. In 2014, the 10 largest debtors accounted for 46% of stockholders equity. And today, the ratio was down to 25%. We've also achieved a major reduction by diversifying the portfolio, which is quite healthy, especially in times that may bring some additional volatility.

第二個指標是最大10家債務人佔股東權益的集中度。 2014年，前10名債務人佔股東權益的46%。如今，這一比例已降至 25%。我們還通過投資組合多元化實現了大幅削減，這是相當健康的，特別是在可能帶來一些額外波動的時期。

Finally, in 2014, 68% of our portfolio was made up of investment-grade clients. Well, today, the share of investment-grade clients in the portfolio is 75%, which also shows all the work we've done to adjust the portfolio mix to improve its quality and therefore, lower its risk. In terms of financial margin with clients, in the first quarter, we posted a drop of BRL 200 million or 0.7%.

最後，2014 年，我們投資組合的 68% 由投資級客戶組成。那麼，今天，投資級客戶在投資組合中的比例是 75%，這也顯示了我們為調整投資組合結構以提高其質量從而降低其風險所做的所有工作。在與客戶的財務利潤方面，第一季度我們下降了 2 億雷亞爾，即 0.7%。

The first quarter of the year is impacted by seasonality, basically explained by the lower number of calendar days. And there's also a seasonality factor impacting Latin America, which we should continue to observe over the next quarters. We present the product mix effect to 0 to show that we had no mix impact. In working capital, we gained BRL 100 million since it grew from BRL 2.7 billion in the last quarter to BRL 2.8 billion in this quarter. As a result, the big effect on the margin with clients was on the core margin, which is in line with our historic performance as this is a quarter where typically this happens. So we have no specific concern to this regard. The NIM in both consolidated figures and in Brazil remained flat compared to last quarter, 8.7% on a consolidated basis and 9.4% in Brazil.

今年第一季度受到季節性影響，主要是由於日曆天數較少。還有一個影響拉丁美洲的季節性因素，我們應該在接下來的幾個季度繼續觀察。我們將產品組合效應呈現為 0，以表明我們沒有組合影響。在營運資金方面，我們獲得了 1 億雷亞爾，從上季度的 27 億雷亞爾增長到本季度的 28 億雷亞爾。因此，對客戶利潤率的重大影響是核心利潤率，這與我們的歷史業績相符，因為這是通常發生這種情況的季度。所以我們對此沒有具體的關注。綜合數據和巴西的淨息差均與上季度持平，綜合數據為 8.7%，巴西為 9.4%。

In risk-adjusted figures, the NIM increases on a quarter-on-quarter basis. I'll remind you that in the fourth quarter last year, we had that big retailer event, and we recognized a provision for 100% of the exposure. The part was already recovered this quarter, which is the main effect. Looking at the financial margin with the market. Again, the highlight is consistency. As difficult and volatile as the environment is, our risk and balance sheet management capabilities have proven to be successful.

在風險調整後的數據中，淨息差環比上升。我要提醒大家的是，去年第四季度，我們舉辦了一場大型零售商活動，我們確認了 100% 風險敞口的撥備。這部分本季度已經收回來了，這是主要影響。著眼於市場的財務利潤率。再次強調的是一致性。儘管環境困難且不穩定，但我們的風險和資產負債表管理能力已被證明是成功的。

If you look at historical series, you can see that we continue to deliver a positive financial margin with the market quarter after quarter. Moreover, in this quarter, financial margin with the market was stronger for Brazil, reaching BRL 1 billion, while Latin America had a weaker quarter, especially in Chile, due to inflation effects. The capital ratio hedging cost was BRL 500 million. So the financial margin with the market is very much in line with what we had been posting in previous quarters, once again, proving to be solid and consistent.

如果您查看歷史系列，您會發現我們每個季度都繼續為市場提供正的財務利潤。此外，本季度巴西的市場財務利潤率較高，達到 10 億雷亞爾，而拉丁美洲的季度財務利潤率較弱，尤其是智利，原因是通貨膨脹影響。資本比率對沖成本為5億雷亞爾。因此，與市場的財務利潤率與我們在前幾個季度發布的數據非常一致，再次證明是堅實和一致的。

In general, I would use the word consistent in all the tables of our presentation. Moving over to commissions, fees and insurance results. We posted a slight quarter-on-quarter drop in credit card business, but it's still up 16.9% year-over-year, in which acquiring services stands out by posting a year-on-year growth of 30.7%. Revenue from advisory services and brokerage dropped 8.1% in the quarter, but still posting revenue of BRL 0.7 billion. This has been a rough year with less investment banking activity, even for a diverse bank.

一般來說，我會在演示文稿的所有表格中使用“一致”這個詞。轉向佣金、費用和保險結果。信用卡業務環比略有下降，但同比仍增長16.9%，其中收單服務表現突出，同比增長30.7%。本季度諮詢服務和經紀業務的收入下降了 8.1%，但收入仍達到 7 億雷亞爾。今年是艱難的一年，投資銀行活動減少，即使對於一家多元化的銀行也是如此。

We offer DCM, ECM and M&A services. There is a certain seasonality affecting these operations, but we cannot deny that it was a more challenging quarter. In Latin America, ex Brazil, revenue was come in as expected, growing 10.9% year-over-year and 5.5% quarter-on-quarter. Another business that I draw attention to insurance operations, which revenues are down 1.5% on a quarter-on-quarter basis, but up by 10.9% year-over-year. And the highlight is the core insurance results.

我們提供 DCM、ECM 和併購服務。這些業務受到一定的季節性影響，但我們不能否認這是一個更具挑戰性的季度。在拉丁美洲（巴西除外），收入符合預期，同比增長 10.9%，環比增長 5.5%。我提請注意的另一項業務是保險業務，其收入環比下降1.5%，但同比增長10.9%。而亮點就是核心保險業績。

Earned premiums were up 16.9% year-on-year, and the core insurance earnings grew 30.9% over earnings that had already been growing strong. We continue to be very pleased with our insurance business strategy and results. In acquiring activities, as I was saying earlier, the transaction volume went up 21%, while revenue went up 30%. This shows our ability to manage clients, reprice the portfolio, increase the penetration of financial products and promote the growth of the acquiring business.

已賺保費同比增長16.9%，核心保險盈利較本已強勁增長的盈利增長30.9%。我們仍然對我們的保險業務戰略和業績感到非常滿意。在收購活動中，正如我之前所說，交易量增長了 21%，而收入增長了 30%。這顯示了我們管理客戶、重新定價投資組合、提高金融產品滲透率和促進收單業務增長的能力。

Thus, we continue to extract a lot of value from the operation, and earnings have been keeping up with our development as well. In card issuance business, the transaction volume was up 10%, a much lower growth than in previous years. But the main message here is that our client portfolio mix is quite favorable, especially from a risk standpoint. Card issuance revenues continue to grow in the internal channels, which consists of clients with whom we have a longer-term relationship.

因此，我們不斷從運營中獲取大量價值，盈利也一直跟上我們的發展。發卡業務交易量增長10%，增速遠低於往年。但這裡的主要信息是，我們的客戶投資組合非常有利，尤其是從風險的角度來看。內部渠道的發卡收入持續增長，其中包括與我們有長期合作關係的客戶。

They are checking account holders, and they are key for our cross-sell strategy, where credit cards are just one product in the relationship with these clients. We foresee a lower growth in revenues and a reduction in the client base and the channels with a lower income client profile, both in the external channel and the consumer finance credit channels. This is very much in line with the adjustment to the portfolio that I've been commenting on as part of the risk management strategy that we've been doing.

他們是支票賬戶持有人，他們是我們交叉銷售策略的關鍵，信用卡只是與這些客戶關係中的一種產品。我們預計外部渠道和消費金融信貸渠道的收入增長將放緩，客戶群和收入較低的客戶群體將減少。這與我一直在評論的投資組合調整非常一致，這是我們一直在做的風險管理策略的一部分。

The number of active cards of account holders grew 14%, which shows that the risk diversification strategy has been very successful. Speaking about credit quality, we can see a totally expected growth in the short-term delinquency rate, NPL 15, 90. I always remind you that in the first quarter of every year, if you look at a longer historic NPL series, the first quarter is always seasonally more pressure. This is due to people's higher year-end spending and bills, which explains why default increases in the first quarter historically.

賬戶持有人的活躍卡數增長了14%，這表明風險分散策略非常成功。說到信用質量，我們可以看到短期拖欠率的增長完全符合預期，不良貸款15、90。我總是提醒大家，在每年第一季度，如果你看一個較長的歷史不良貸款系列，第一個季度總是季節性壓力比較大。這是由於人們的年終支出和賬單較高，這解釋了歷史上第一季度違約增加的原因。

The short-term delinquency rate for individuals rose 30 bps in the first quarter of 2023. The growth of this rate in the first quarter over the last 5 years has been between 35 bps and 42 bps. So 30 bps is the lowest growth rate in recent years. What happened in the last 2 years is that this rate went up in the first quarter, and it did not go back down in the second quarter because we were in the process of gradually normalizing the cost of credit. And we expected NPL to continue to go up, which we do not expect to happen in the next quarter anymore.

2023 年第一季度個人短期拖欠率上升了 30 個基點。過去 5 年第一季度這一比率的增幅在 35 個基點至 42 個基點之間。所以30個基點是近年來最低的增長率。過去兩年發生的情況是，該利率在第一季度上升，在第二季度沒有回落，因為我們正在逐步使信貸成本正常化。我們預計不良貸款將繼續上升，但我們預計下一季度不會再出現這種情況。

The key point is that we normalized NPL rate for individuals. The delinquency rate for SMEs was up 20 bps. And the good news is that the NPL 90 days has stabilized, as I've been telling you for several quarters now and if it's precisely into our expectations for this quarter. With these results, we deliver risk management capacity, predictability and consistency, as we've been signaling to you.

關鍵是我們對個人不良貸款率進行了標準化。中小企業的拖欠率上升了20個基點。好消息是，不良貸款 90 天已經穩定下來，正如我在幾個季度中一直告訴您的那樣，以及是否完全符合我們對本季度的預期。憑藉這些結果，我們提供了風險管理能力、可預測性和一致性，正如我們一直向您發出的信號。

The NPL 90 days rate for SMEs in Brazil fell from 2.4% to 2.3%. It's clear that there are challenges that the scenario may change over time, but we've been able to deliver and demonstrate a very efficient management capacity. It's hard to track the NPL rate for large corporates because usually, in this portfolio, when delinquency occurs, the client already has an issue. So coverage ratio may be more adequate, and I'll talk about it in the next slide.

巴西中小企業90天不良貸款率從2.4%下降至2.3%。很明顯，隨著時間的推移，場景可能會發生變化，但我們已經能夠提供並展示非常有效的管理能力。跟踪大型企業的不良貸款率很困難，因為通常在這種投資組合中，當發生拖欠時，客戶已經遇到了問題。所以覆蓋率可能更合適，我會在下一張幻燈片中講到。

The portfolio cost of credit reached 3.2%. And if it weren't for the subsequent event, last quarter's ratio would have been 3%. So there was a slight increase. I've been saying for several quarters now that we should normalize the cost of credit at a pre-pandemic level. And that is what has, in fact, happened. The current cost of credit is at 3.2%, and pre-pandemic, it was 3.3%. Last quarter, due to the subsequent event, it was 3.5%.

信貸組合成本達到3.2%。如果沒有後續事件，上季度的比率將為 3%。所以略有增加。幾個季度以來我一直在說，我們應該將信貸成本正常化到大流行前的水平。事實上，這就是已經發生的事情。目前的信貸成本為 3.2%，疫情爆發前為 3.3%。上季度，由於後續事件，為3.5%。

The cost of credit was BRL 9.1 billion, which would be more comparable to the cost of credit of BRL 8.5 billion in the fourth quarter of 2022. The difference to the BRL 9.8 billion posted in the fourth quarter of 2022 is explained by the subsequent event involving the retailer for which we provisioned 100% of the exposure in the fourth quarter of 2022. The total coverage ratio was flat, and there was a slight increase of 1 percentage point in Retail. The average retail coverage for the last 4 years, pre-pandemic from December 2015 to December 2019 was 167%, and we are running at 182%. We continue to provision our formation and maintain our expected credit loss management, which is key to have a sound balance sheet with adequate provisions and prepared for the challenges that lie ahead.

信貸成本為 91 億雷亞爾，這與 2022 年第四季度 85 億雷亞爾的信貸成本更具可比性。與 2022 年第四季度公佈的 98 億雷亞爾的差異由後續事件解釋涉及我們在2022年第四季度為其撥備100%敞口的零售商。總覆蓋率持平，零售業小幅增加1個百分點。過去 4 年，從 2015 年 12 月到 2019 年 12 月，疫情爆發前的平均零售覆蓋率為 167%，我們當前的運行率為 182%。我們繼續為我們的組建提供準備金並維持預期的信用損失管理，這是擁有健全的資產負債表和充足準備金並為未來挑戰做好準備的關鍵。

I think that in terms of credit, despite the challenges in the current scenario, we have good news to share with you. Noninterest expenses in Brazil dropped 3.5%. But we have the seasonal effect in this line since in first quarter is typically weaker in terms of costs, which explains the drop in the quarter and the 9% growth year-over-year. For the first time in history, we achieved an efficiency ratio below 40% on a consolidated basis. It was 39.8% in a quarter, where noninterest expenses grew 7.7% year-over-year and fell 3.5% quarter-over-quarter. The efficiency ratio in Brazil was 37.9%, which is also down from the last quarter, which had already been a good quarter.

我認為在信貸方面，儘管當前面臨挑戰，但我們有好消息要與大家分享。巴西的非利息支出下降了 3.5%。但我們在這條線上受到季節性影響，因為第一季度的成本通常較弱，這解釋了該季度的下降和同比增長 9% 的原因。我們歷史上首次實現綜合效率低於 40%。一季度為39.8%，其中非利息支出同比增長7.7%，環比下降3.5%。巴西的效率率為37.9%，也較上季度有所下降，而上季度已經是一個不錯的季度。

So these are the lowest efficiency ratios in the industry when we consider all expenses without any reclassification and calculated in a manner we believe to be the most correct. They are the lowest efficiency ratios in the history of the bank. About the cost base, our quarter-on-quarter core costs fell by BRL 700 million, a drop that is mostly explained by our efficiency program, which fostered cost discipline and focus on costs. And it has a volumetric effect, which is the good cost, the cost that we would like to have more up as the business generates more activity.

因此，當我們考慮所有費用而不進行任何重新分類並以我們認為最正確的方式計算時，這些效率比率是行業中最低的。這是該銀行歷史上最低的效率比率。關於成本基礎，我們的核心成本環比下降了 7 億雷亞爾，下降的主要原因是我們的效率計劃，該計劃促進了成本紀律和對成本的關注。它具有體積效應，這是良好的成本，隨著業務產生更多活動，我們希望增加更多的成本。

And more importantly, we continue investing in our businesses and in technology, delivering sound and consistent earnings, taking care of the bank of today while investing in the bank of the future. It's worth noting that we are not delivering these efficiency ratios by cutting off investments. We are at full speed with our digital transformation. We are expanding businesses, focusing on capital discipline and in value creation and continuing to invest in the bank.

更重要的是，我們繼續投資於我們的業務和技術，提供穩健且持續的收益，照顧今天的銀行，同時投資未來的銀行。值得注意的是，我們並不是通過削減投資來實現這些效率比。我們正在全速進行數字化轉型。我們正在擴大業務，專注於資本紀律和價值創造，並繼續投資於銀行。

Moving on to capital. We were practically 10 basis points above common equity Tier 1 we presented in the previous quarter. We increased earnings already adjusted for the distribution of interest on capital. There were also the effects from risk-weighted assets and prudential adjustments. We ended the fourth quarter of 2022 with common equity Tier 1 at 11.9%, and it reached 12% in the first quarter of 2023.

轉向資本。我們的業績比上一季度公佈的普通股一級資本高出近 10 個基點。我們增加了已經根據資本利息分配進行調整的收益。還有風險加權資產和審慎調整的影響。截至 2022 年第四季度末，我們的一級普通股股權率為 11.9%，2023 年第一季度達到 12%。

Considering AT1, we reached 13.5% Tier 1 capital. In other words, our CET1 of 12% is 50 bps above our 11.5% appetite, which was approved by the Board of Directors. As we can see, the bank is well capitalized and points to a very positive trend. And finally, I'd like to extend to you an invitation to attend Itaú Day 2023, which will take place on June 15. During this event, we'll have the opportunity to have a very open, transparent chat to share with you a clear view of what our strategy has been, how we are taking care of our clients, of our culture, how we've been carrying out the digital transformation process and how we have expanded and been able to deliver the sound consistent earnings.

考慮到 AT1，我們達到了 13.5% 的一級資本。換句話說，我們 12% 的 CET1 比我們董事會批准的 11.5% 的預期高出 50 個基點。正如我們所看到的，該銀行資本充足，並呈現出非常積極的趨勢。最後，我想向您發出參加 2023 年伊塔烏日的邀請，該活動將於 6 月 15 日舉行。在這次活動期間，我們將有機會進行一次非常開放、透明的聊天，與您分享清楚地了解我們的戰略是什麼、我們如何照顧我們的客戶、我們的文化、我們如何進行數字化轉型過程以及我們如何擴展並能夠提供穩健的持續收益。

I'm counting a lot on your participation. It will be a pleasure to have you with us in this event. And with this, I wrap up the presentation. I hope that you've been able to understand the main drivers to deliver our earnings. In fact, I think that during challenging times, soundness and consistency should be of great value, and our earnings show it.

我非常依賴您的參與。很高興您能與我們一起參加這次活動。我的演講到此結束。我希望您能夠了解實現我們盈利的主要驅動力。事實上，我認為在充滿挑戰的時期，穩健性和一致性應該具有很大的價值，我們的收益也證明了這一點。

I'll now join Renato for the Q&A session where we can share more details. Our flight tonight to attend our conference in New York, and I will surely meet with many investors. Thanks and see you soon. I wish you all the best.

我現在將與雷納託一起參加問答環節，我們可以在其中分享更多細節。今晚我們將飛往紐約參加我們的會議，我一定會見到許多投資者。謝謝，很快再見。祝你一切順利。

Hello, everyone, I'm back. Milton is right here with us. Thank you for your wonderful presentation. Now we would like to start the Q&A session. It will be in 2 languages. If you ask a question in English, we're going to answer in English. If you'd ask in Portuguese, we'll answer in Portuguese. We have both options, therefore, available for you, audio in English or Portuguese. Now you can also submit your questions via WhatsApp, 1198-993-1132. Time for few questions.

大家好，我回來了。米爾頓就在我們身邊。感謝您的精彩演講。現在我們開始問答環節。它將有兩種語言。如果您用英語問問題，我們將用英語回答。如果您用葡萄牙語提問，我們會用葡萄牙語回答。因此，我們為您提供英語或葡萄牙語音頻兩種選擇。現在您還可以通過 WhatsApp（1198-993-1132）提交您的問題。是時候問幾個問題了。

Without further ado, I would like to call to the screen. Thiago Batista.

話不多說，我想呼叫屏幕。蒂亞戈·巴蒂斯塔。

Congratulations on the results, very strong. It seems like the bank is operating in different countries. Well, the question is not about that. It's about profitability of the business areas. When we follow up on the wholesale and retail post-pandemic, maybe it's a coincidence or not, but it really changed the -- well, the portfolio we are talking the retail, 30%; wholesale, 17%. Now it's inverted. The last, the aforementioned -- well, retail -- well, 30% is wholesale; 17%, retail. How do you imagine the returns? Is there a structural change in the business? Is it a competition from the fintechs? What justifies that change? And how can we imagine the profitability, so to say, looking at the future?

恭喜你的結果，非常強大。該銀行似乎在不同的國家/地區運營。嗯，問題不是這個。這是關於業務領域的盈利能力。當我們跟進大流行後的批發和零售時，也許這是否是巧合，但它確實改變了——嗯，我們談論零售的投資組合，30%；批發，17%。現在卻顛倒過來了。最後，前面提到的——嗯，零售——嗯，30%是批發； 17%，零售。您如何想像回報？業務是否有結構性變化？這是來自金融科技公司的競爭嗎？是什麼證明這種改變是合理的？展望未來，我們如何想像盈利能力？

Well, thank you for the question, Thiago. Thank you for the compliment. It's always a pleasure to have you here. I believe that the question, it's legitimate, it's excellent. Let's separate. When we see at a longer series, when we take a look at that, there are some relevant effects taking over the last few years. You mentioned the pandemic had an important effect as the bank did -- renounced a lot of revenue to serve as well and help our clients to -- well, that credit program and Travessia crossovers, well, with the small companies, medium-sized companies to go to weather the storm.

嗯，謝謝你的提問，蒂亞戈。謝謝你的誇獎。很高興您能來到這裡。我相信這個問題是合理的，而且非常好。我們分開吧。當我們看到一個較長的系列時，當我們審視它時，會發現過去幾年發生了一些相關的影響。您提到，這場大流行病產生了重要影響，就像銀行一樣——放棄了大量收入來服務並幫助我們的客戶——嗯，信貸計劃和 Travessia 交叉，嗯，與小公司、中型公司去抵御風暴。

So we had a few regulatory effects. The cap of some loans remove the profitability of -- and also, we have -- the delinquency has returned. We've had 2 great years, and delinquency has climbed over the last few years, specifically credit cards where our operation is very large. We have an enormous portfolio. We have a significant share of the market. It made the profitability of retail to drop.

所以我們產生了一些監管影響。一些貸款的上限消除了拖欠率再次出現的盈利能力，而且我們確實也這樣做了。我們度過了美好的兩年，但拖欠率在過去幾年中不斷攀升，特別是我們業務規模非常龐大的信用卡領域。我們擁有龐大的產品組合。我們擁有很大的市場份額。這使得零售業的盈利能力下降。

Now even though we've had a few improvements over the last few quarters, we've had a benefit in the seasonal cost. That's why profitability increases a bit. In retail, what we've done is it depends more on credit than independent. And in the past, it was very relevant for credit. But we had a generation -- a capacity to generation of fees and revenues, which is very aligned with credit. And it's an operation Retail has grown more than the capacity to expand the business and fees, which is the profitability. Therefore, that tends to the return of credit more than credit and fees and how -- that's how the bank captures the value.

現在，儘管我們在過去幾個季度中取得了一些改進，但我們在季節性成本方面還是受益匪淺。這就是盈利能力略有增加的原因。在零售業，我們所做的是更多地依賴信用而不是獨立。在過去，它與信貸非常相關。但我們有一代人——有能力產生費用和收入，這與信貸非常一致。零售業務的增長超過了業務擴展的能力和費用，這就是盈利能力。因此，這比信貸和費用更傾向於信貸的回報，這就是銀行獲取價值的方式。

When we do a deep dive, a zoom in retail as a whole, we can see very good with the companies doing very well. Delinquency very controlled, as you've seen in the credit indicators. In the persons -- in the natural persons, they are more dependent on credit, but they are more resilient in the cost of credit. And when we talk about the market -- the open market, where we operate credit cards or some other segments we operate with vehicles and other private -- other balloons and vehicles, we see profitability pressured.

當我們深入研究、放大整個零售業時，我們可以看到這些公司做得很好。正如您在信用指標中看到的那樣，拖欠率得到了很好的控制。對於個人——自然人來說，他們更依賴信貸，但他們對信貸成本的彈性更強。當我們談論市場時——我們在公開市場上經營信用卡或我們用車輛和其他私人——其他氣球和車輛經營的其他一些領域——我們看到盈利能力受到壓力。

We have the work of repositioning our portfolio. We also changed the level of profitability of portfolio, doing a migration to a more insured portfolio, and therefore, we have a lower profitability, but more -- much more resilient in a scenario that is showing adversity. So the repositioning of the portfolio, clients that are -- we're working with the incomes of the clients. 1/3 of the portfolio in low income, we reduced in 10 percentage points that number over the last few years.

我們正在努力重新定位我們的投資組合。我們還改變了投資組合的盈利水平，遷移到保險程度更高的投資組合，因此，我們的盈利能力較低，但在逆境的情況下更具彈性。因此，對投資組合進行重新定位，我們正在根據客戶的收入進行工作。 1/3 的投資組合屬於低收入，在過去幾年中我們減少了 10 個百分點。

So our management capacity has made us to -- has made us weather the storm better. So looking at retail as a whole, our expectation is to continue to work strongly to improve the profitability. I do not believe that they're going to return to the aforementioned thresholds, we have to improve. There is an efficiency agenda that is very strong. So what we can -- this is where we control and this is where we have to highlight the efficiency. But specifically, the natural persons in the direct clients, we are looking at them as an integrated business units. And also in wholesale, we've had great grade incomes.

因此，我們的管理能力使我們能夠更好地渡過難關。因此，從整個零售業來看，我們的期望是繼續大力提高盈利能力。我不相信他們會回到上述閾值，我們必須改進。有一個非常強有力的效率議程。所以我們能做的——這是我們可以控制的地方，也是我們必須強調效率的地方。但具體來說，直接客戶中的自然人，我們將他們視為一個綜合業務單位。在批發方面，我們的收入也很高。

We have the investment bank, the commercial area, asset management, the Latin American operations are always in -- within this umbrella of wholesale, we had a bit of a drop in the previous quarter because of that PPD that was very specific. We have a normalization of the cost of credit, which is normal. It should have bring profitability lower, then we have less activity in the investment banking and asset in performance fee, and therefore, we should get some pressures in profitability, but the numbers in what we expect and the expectation of guidance, we are going to deliver the guidance.

我們的投資銀行、商業領域、資產管理、拉丁美洲業務始終處於批發業務的範圍內，但由於 PPD 非常具體，我們上一季度的業務有所下降。我們的信貸成本正常化，這是正常的。它應該會帶來盈利能力下降，然後我們在投資銀行和業績費資產中的活動就會減少，因此，我們應該會在盈利能力方面受到一些壓力，但從我們預期的數字和指導的預期來看，我們將提供指導。

Thank you, Milton. We have the second question. Gustavo Schroden, Bradesco.

謝謝你，米爾頓。我們有第二個問題。古斯塔沃·施羅登，布拉德斯科。

Congratulations on the results, very strong across the Board. Now I would like to -- well, use -- well, to take Milton's words and expanding on that efficiency, it's below 40%, specifically if we consider the size of the bank. It's a bank that has 4,100 branches and the point of sales, 100,000 employees. I've asked that question before to Milton, I'm going to ask it again. In my reading -- according to my reading, it would be a game changer in profitability. With all of that infrastructure, which is heavy, the bank can work with an ROI of 20%, 21%, the efficiency level of below 40%.

祝賀結果，各方面都非常強勁。現在我想——好吧，使用——好吧，按照米爾頓的話來說，並擴展效率，它低於 40%，特別是如果我們考慮到銀行的規模。這家銀行擁有 4,100 個分行和銷售點，擁有 100,000 名員工。我之前曾向米爾頓問過這個問題，我會再問一次。根據我的閱讀，這將改變盈利能力。憑藉所有這些繁重的基礎設施，銀行的投資回報率可以達到 20%、21%，效率水平低於 40%。

Milton, well, taking into consideration the internal analysis, we've gone through the pandemic period, which we had reading that everybody needed to do, how it would be the post-pandemic behavior of people. We have a great scenario. We have a great visibility of how people are behaving. Therefore, is there any space to reduce significantly speaking the number of branches and the points of sale -- points of service. And even the structure, the staff needed to support and maybe I'm talking about optimization here, and that can bring us through a different threshold of profitability, which is already high. So I wanted to hear this from you once again. I think that there is a space so you can have a change in ROI, but maybe it's already high, but maybe changing the threshold of that ROI that is already high.

米爾頓，考慮到內部分析，我們已經經歷了大流行時期，我們讀到每個人都需要這樣做，大流行後人們的行為將如何。我們有一個很棒的場景。我們對人們的行為方式有很好的了解。因此，是否有空間大幅減少分支機構和銷售點——服務點的數量。甚至是結構、需要支持的員工，也許我在這裡談論的是優化，這可以讓我們跨越一個不同的盈利門檻，這個門檻已經很高了。所以我想再次聽到你的聲音。我認為有一個空間可以改變投資回報率，但也許它已經很高了，但也許可以改變已經很高的投資回報率的閾值。

Gustavo, thank you. Pleasure to see you once again. It's always good to receive this question because remember that there is a lot of employees watching the call besides the investors. And this gives me a great opportunity to communicate everyone. This agenda of efficiency is fundamental. We've managed, in fact, to reach the efficiency levels, increasing the leverage -- operational leverage of the bank. Of course, there was a space for that. And we're reducing.

古斯塔沃，謝謝你。很高興再次見到你。收到這個問題總是好的，因為請記住，除了投資者之外，還有很多員工在觀看電話會議。這給了我一個很好的機會和大家交流。這一效率議程至關重要。事實上，我們已經設法達到了效率水平，提高了槓桿——銀行的運營槓桿。當然，這是有空間的。我們正在減少。

If you are talking about the branches over the last few years since 2015, when we started to do a few movements for reducing, we've reduced 1,500 branches at the time. Maybe this is not an isolated objective. We want to service our clients in the right way. We believe in the digital model, we are trying to evolve understanding the channels, the digitalization of the clients, the demands of the clients and the products.

如果你說的是2015年以來這幾年的分支機構，當時我們開始做了一些減少的動作，當時我們已經減少了1500個分支機構。也許這不是一個孤立的目標。我們希望以正確的方式為客戶提供服務。我們相信數字化模式，我們正在努力加深對渠道、客戶數字化、客戶需求和產品的理解。

Well, in this quarter, we've closed, if you've seen, 55 branches. We reached the volume of 415 digital branches, which is a different model, lower cost where we have extended hours for servicing our clients. This is very important. And we've been working with the business space where these lighter branches, we have the hubs and satellites, we concentrate the operations in 1 branch and a few branches, we lead these business areas later to service to bring -- to provide consultancy to talk about more sophisticated products.

嗯，在這個季度，我們關閉了 55 家分行（如果您看到的話）。我們的數字分支機構數量達到了 415 個，這是一種不同的模式，成本更低，我們延長了為客戶提供服務的時間。這個非常重要。我們一直在與這些較輕的分支機構的業務空間合作，我們有樞紐和衛星，我們將業務集中在一個分支機構和幾個分支機構，我們稍後領導這些業務領域帶來服務 - 提供諮詢談論更複雜的產品。

The care and equilibrium that we have here, when we reduce structurally, the large banks, we reduce the top line because the digital model is working and is integrated. Therefore, the care that we have to have is, as our clients still demand and still go to the branch, there's still a flow of payments that is very important even though the flow of payments drops, it grows nominally even though we reduced the share in our branch networks in regards to payment as a whole.

當我們從結構上減少大型銀行時，我們會保持謹慎和平衡，因為數字模型正在發揮作用並且是集成的，因此我們會減少收入。因此，我們要注意的是，由於我們的客戶仍然有需求，仍然會去分行，所以仍然有一個非常重要的付款流量，即使付款流量下降了，儘管我們減少了份額，但名義上還是增長了在我們的分支機構網絡中，就整個支付而言。

So we continue to work strongly on efficiencies. Specifically, at the moment where there is more adversity, the more uncertain the future is, the more intense, our efficiency agenda is here in the bank. And this is the rhythm that we're going to apply in 2023, in 2024. And if we have to do additional adjustments, we will do so as that is necessary to service our clients correctly. And since we have the digital integrated model, this is our central challenge.

因此，我們繼續大力提高效率。具體來說，在逆境越多、未來越不確定的時刻，我們的效率議程就在銀行里。這就是我們將在 2023 年、2024 年採用的節奏。如果我們必須進行額外的調整，我們也會這樣做，因為這是正確服務我們的客戶所必需的。由於我們擁有數字集成模型，這就是我們的核心挑戰。

There is space for us to evolve. We will continue to dedicate our sales over the efficiency agenda. You've talked about a few of the levers, and these are very important levers for us to continue to grow and deliver this level of efficiency. Top line is very strong, and that helps an index. But we need to have a look forward for the future. The balance needs to be given. If the top line is uncertain, the cost is certain, and we will do a deep dive on that.

我們還有發展的空間。我們將繼續將銷售重點放在效率議程上。您談到了一些槓桿，這些對於我們繼續發展和提供這種效率水平來說是非常重要的槓桿。頂線非常強勁，這有助於指數。但我們需要展望未來。需要給出餘額。如果收入是不確定的，那麼成本是確定的，我們將對此進行深入研究。

Thank you, Milton. The third question that is here, Rafael Frade, Citi.

謝謝你，米爾頓。第三個問題是 Rafael Frade，花旗銀行。

Well, one question about credit cards. Milton, as you commented, we've seen a stabilization of the quality of credit of the portfolio as a whole. But if you look at the credit cards, specifically, it's -- we're seeing -- we have a worsening of the marginal -- well, of the margins.

嗯，有一個關於信用卡的問題。米爾頓，正如您所說，我們看到整個投資組合的信貸質量趨於穩定。但如果你具體看看信用卡，我們會看到，我們的邊際利潤正在惡化。

If you can tell us more about credit cards regardless of all the measures that were implemented, there is still some lagging, some stuff that we got from the previous origination? And another question. I thought that it was different from the other players. We had -- you had an increase in fund. And how much is that the demand of the client, the proposal of funding that's coming from other companies, if you can discuss funding?

如果您能告訴我們更多有關信用卡的信息，無論採取了哪些措施，仍然存在一些滯後的情況，一些我們從之前的起源中得到的東西？還有一個問題。我認為這與其他球員不同。我們——你們的資金增加了。如果您可以討論資金問題，那麼客戶的需求、來自其他公司的資金建議是多少？

Thank you, Rafael. Well, I'm going to start talking about credit cards. Credit cards, remember, our portfolio is very large. We have practically 30% of the market share where we continue -- when we take into consideration the card for bank, and we look at the portfolio as a whole. Now these segments have had different performances. The -- there was a great performance from the natural person's banks -- bank accounts, this is a portfolio we continue to grow. And this is the high income profile.

謝謝你，拉斐爾。好吧，我要開始談論信用卡了。信用卡，請記住，我們的投資組合非常龐大。當我們考慮到銀行卡以及整個投資組合時，我們實際上擁有 30% 的市場份額。現在這些細分市場都有了不同的表現。自然人銀行的銀行賬戶表現出色，這是我們持續增長的投資組合。這就是高收入狀況。

Of course, we have an allocation, but this is more balanced. And then there is 2 portfolios, the finance and the open ocean where we work with the brands without through the regular channels. And this has been reducing the constructions, specifically in these 2 portfolios. In the finance, you have the value proposition of the partner. So not necessarily you have the same quality of credit. You can see through that and you can have better quality in the open ocean. The client that comes through the digital channel and looks for credit, you have more difficulty. So you have an adjustment in the portfolio.

當然，我們有分配，但是這樣更平衡。然後有兩個投資組合，金融和公海，我們不通過常規渠道與品牌合作。這一直在減少建設，特別是在這兩個投資組合中。在財務領域，您擁有合作夥伴的價值主張。因此，您不一定具有相同的信用質量。你可以看透這一點，並且可以在公海中獲得更好的質量。通過數字渠道尋求信用的客戶，你會遇到更多困難。所以你需要對投資組合進行調整。

We've reduced the concessions, and we've done the general review of the limits and the exposure of the riskier groups, they were reduced in a more relevant way. So I can tell you that the short delays, not only -- in this year, it has improved the performance, but there is a portfolio that has a lagging to it. When we compare the numbers to the SFM numbers that were published, there was a delay in the short -- there was an opening in the delays, there is a lower threshold and we do the correction at the end quicker than the system as a whole.

我們減少了讓步，並對風險較高群體的限額和風險敞口進行了總體審查，以更相關的方式減少了減讓。所以我可以告訴你，短暫的延遲不僅在今年提高了業績，而且還有一個滯後的投資組合。當我們將這些數字與已發布的 SFM 數字進行比較時，發現短期存在延遲——延遲中存在一個缺口，閾值較低，並且我們在最後比整個系統更快地進行修正。

So I believe that the capacity and how dynamic it is, it's what makes a difference. So we are very comfortable. We've done the necessary interventions limits. And these, we can see a reduction in the higher threshold. And this in the -- if we remove the account holders, there is a lower capital cost. And we have a different performance in regards to the cross-sell and the records that we have of the clients itself. So this is the central point on the credit cards.

所以我相信能力和它的活力才是重要的。所以我們很舒服。我們已經做了必要的干預限制。而這些，我們可以看到較高門檻的降低。如果我們刪除賬戶持有人，資本成本就會降低。我們在交叉銷售和客戶本身的記錄方面有不同的表現。所以這是信用卡的中心點。

About the funding, your second question. I believe that the bank has managed to perform very strongly in capture and deposits not only for what we call the traditional deposits, we have an open platform, multi-products and asset management that is very competitive and a distribution channel that is very solid. So we've managed to work with either the investment and the credit analyzers and the capacity that our private bank has been growing.

關於資金，你的第二個問題。我相信，該銀行在吸收和存款方面表現非常強勁，不僅是我們所說的傳統存款，我們還擁有開放的平台、多產品和非常有競爭力的資產管理以及非常穩固的分銷渠道。因此，我們設法與投資和信貸分析人員以及我們私人銀行不斷增長的能力進行合作。

We are gaining market share in the private, 29% market share according to the ANBIMA Data, this is the largest one in terms of share and it's growing, so our funding has captured value. Well, of course, when we see more adversity moments, we see the flight to quality and the bank is always seen as a safe harbor in terms of investments, given the solidity results, capitalization of the bank. And with the movement of the interest rates, there is a reduction in the funds and assets.

根據 ANBIMA 數據，我們正在獲得私募市場份額，即 29% 的市場份額，就份額而言，這是最大的市場份額，而且還在不斷增長，因此我們的資金已經獲得了價值。好吧，當然，當我們看到更多的逆境時刻時，我們會看到人們轉向質量，鑑於銀行的穩健業績和資本化，銀行始終被視為投資方面的安全港。隨著利率的變動，資金和資產也會減少。

So what we talk about the open platform, the multi-market, the industry as a whole, performance of the industry was very poor in the first quarter across the board. And with the level of interest rates, the treasury products, they tend to grow. That's why we've seen that info that is very important. Of course, some volatility. Of course, when funding comes from great corporations and great clients, it's more institutional funding. And we've lost a few deposits over the last quarter more than we observed, specifically concentrated in great corporations, and this is distributing the results and consuming more cash flow due to the reducing in cash flow.

所以我們講開放平台，多市場，整個行業，第一季度全行業的表現都很差。隨著利率水平的提高，國債產品往往會增長。這就是為什麼我們看到這些信息非常重要。當然，也有一定的波動性。當然，當資金來自偉大的公司和偉大的客戶時，更多的是機構資金。上個季度我們損失的存款比我們觀察到的要多，特別是集中在大公司，由於現金流的減少，這正在分配結果並消耗更多的現金流。

So we've seen the volatility in the funding of big corporations, but the account holders, natural persons is very resilient and this is outstanding and outperforming the market. So the bank has managed to work with the liabilities, with a lot of solidity. Our indicators are stable, much higher than the regulatory limits. And if you look at our deposits from the account holders over -- the portfolio of account holders, natural persons, you can see that we have the better ratio in the market, the funding mantra 1. So we can see the capacity of attracting deposits with quality and servicing our clients, always with a vision of consultant. That's investment for the client, and it's not the best product for the bank. So we have the coin with adequate spreads where the adequate client that really needs and it makes sense to invest in the product.

因此，我們看到了大公司資金的波動性，但賬戶持有人、自然人的彈性非常強，這一點非常突出，跑贏了市場。因此，銀行已經成功地處理了債務問題，而且非常穩健。我們的指標穩定，遠高於監管限值。如果你看看我們的賬戶持有人的存款——賬戶持有人、自然人的投資組合，你會發現我們在市場上有更好的比率，融資口號1。所以我們可以看到吸引存款的能力始終以顧問的眼光，以質量和服務為客戶。這是對客戶的投資，對銀行來說並不是最好的產品。因此，我們擁有具有足夠價差的代幣，其中有足夠的客戶真正需要，並且投資該產品是有意義的。

Okay. Thank you, Milton. Now the next question. We have Rosman from BTG.

好的。謝謝你，米爾頓。現在下一個問題。我們有來自 BTG 的羅斯曼。

Congratulations on the numbers. I wanted to change the theme here. I think that the result was very clear. I think Milton mentioned that you are going to the New York Conference. I've returned from a visit to foreign investors. And the general reading is that the shares are very cheap. But they are very worried about the risks. We have the IVA change, the change in the rotary credit, many others. So we need to get your reading, how do you see the risks? Are they real saturated? And how do you work with the day of the bank? Of course the consideration of these risks.

恭喜你的數字。我想改變這裡的主題。我想結果已經非常明確了。我想米爾頓提到過你要去紐約會議。我拜訪外國投資者回來了。一般的解讀是這些股票非常便宜。但他們非常擔心風險。我們有 IVA 變更、輪轉信貸變更等等。所以我們需要您的閱讀，您如何看待風險？他們真的飽和了嗎？您如何度過銀行這一天？當然要考慮這些風險。

Thank you, Rosman. Always great to have you here. Thank you for the questions. In fact, is something that we do not do here in the bank to ignore the risk. So we really face head on all the challenges that appear. In fact, there are some uncertainties you've mentioned a few. The credit card is something that is recurrent for many, many years. And the work that we've done had is to manage to educate and show in a very directive way all the stakeholders, how their credit card market works in Brazil.

謝謝你，羅斯曼。很高興您能來到這裡。謝謝你的提問。事實上，我們在銀行這樣做並不是為了忽視風險。因此，我們確實正視出現的所有挑戰。事實上，你剛才提到的一些不確定因素是存在的。信用卡是很多很多年都經常使用的東西。我們所做的工作是設法以非常有指導性的方式向所有利益相關者教育和展示他們的信用卡市場在巴西的運作方式。

I remember when I was working in credit cards I had an opinion, when I was sitting there in the chair, I discovered in a different world. And many people do not know it because it is a very complex environment. The ecosystem of credit cards is complexity is the issuance, the -- and all the equation in between, how it's closed. So in the credit cards in Brazil, it's 40% of the usage. 21% of GDP, BRL 10 trillion. The credit cards, they move to BRL 2 trillion per year.

我記得當我從事信用卡工作時，我有一個觀點，當我坐在椅子上時，我發現了一個不同的世界。而且很多人不知道，因為這是一個非常複雜的環境。信用卡生態系統的複雜性在於其發行、以及其間的所有等式以及其關閉方式。所以在巴西的信用卡中，它的使用量佔 40%。佔 GDP 的 21%，10 萬億雷亞爾。信用卡每年的消費額達到 2 萬億雷亞爾。

But we have our own idiosyncrasies. If you see the payment installments, it's large percentage. So if you pay interest rates. And rotary, it's very small, 3.8%, 4% rotary. So when you look at the threshold that pays the interest rates, it's essentially higher than the part that doesn't pay. And you know that the bank carries over all the risks. So it's important to repeat, it's going to be an educational and also cultural issue to the market.

但我們有自己的特質。如果你看到分期付款，那就是很大的比例。所以如果你支付利息。還有旋轉，很小，3.8%、4%旋轉。因此，當你查看支付利率的門檻時，它基本上高於不支付的部分。而且您知道銀行承擔了所有風險。因此，重要的是要重複一遍，這對市場來說將是一個教育和文化問題。

So when we convert to emerging economies, we can see clearly. In other countries, we've realized that our unbalance of the interest rates and payment installments, it's very high in Brazil. So I say that with a lot of tranquility, we are -- we have the acquirer, and we have the issuer. We own 100% of both. So there is no conflict in defending model A or B. I defend the technique and the understanding of the whole. So this is clear for the market, for the stakeholders, whether if it's a Central Bank, you know them very well.

所以當我們轉向新興經濟體時，我們可以看得很清楚。在其他國家，我們已經意識到利率和分期付款的不平衡，在巴西非常高。所以我很平靜地說，我們有收購方，我們有發行方。我們擁有兩者 100% 的股權。因此，捍衛模型 A 或 B 並不存在衝突。我捍衛技術和對整體的理解。所以這對市場、對利益相關者來說都是很清楚的，無論是央行，你都非常了解他們。

The Ministry of the Economy has worked with a few debates, and we are discussing alternatives and paths to make the market evolve. Of course, this doesn't depend on an isolated player. It has to be multidisciplinary. And it would be the ideal to have through the self-regulation that would be a model, that will be self-sustainable attacking structurally in transit and the root cause of the problem. I am not alone in this agenda. There are several people sitting down, we're a group, and we are advancing it.

經濟部已經進行了一些辯論，我們正在討論推動市場發展的替代方案和路徑。當然，這並不取決於孤立的玩家。它必須是多學科的。通過自我監管，這將是一個理想的模式，這將是一種自我可持續的結構性攻擊，也是問題的根本原因。我並不是唯一參與這個議程的人。有幾個人坐下來，我們是一個團體，我們在推進。

We should see how it's evolving, but always taking a look at sustainability of the business. Now the JCB, it's a reading, and there is still no clear proposal. We are reading actually, we've seen recently. Well, we've seen a few comments about the infraction notice that was done in a relevant value and accompany our defenses. If somebody operated in a wrong way, and I don't know what the case is, I'm not going to judge the cause.

我們應該看到它是如何發展的，但始終關注業務的可持續性。現在JCB，正在讀，還沒有明確的提議。我們實際上正在閱讀，我們最近已經看到了。好吧，我們已經看到了一些關於違規通知的評論，這些評論是按照相關價值完成的，並伴隨著我們的辯護。如果有人以錯誤的方式操作，而我不知道是什麼情況，我不會判斷原因。

I believe that you'll need your packet in -- where there was an exaggeration in its excess of creativity. You have to remember that the interest over the own capital is to substitute the loss from 95. And this is to keep an inflationary countries such as ours, you can keep the parity power of value, economic value of your patrimony and the other assets. So it has a value. But you have to remember that our sector is the sector that has the highest taxes in the country.

我相信你會需要你的包裹——那裡的創造力被誇大了。你必須記住，自有資本的利息是為了彌補95的損失。這是為了保持像我們這樣的通貨膨脹國家，你可以保持你的遺產和其他資產的價值、經濟價值的平價能力。所以它有一個價值。但你必須記住，我們的部門是全國稅收最高的部門。

We pay 45% the contribution -- social contribution, we have the ISS taxes. We have the taxes over purchases, state taxes. We have the short-term agendas, we have to be careful with them because they compromise the growth of the credit portfolios and it increases the spread in Brazil, and we need to attack on the other hand. The same way that we attack the cost of spread in Brazil, which is a great work here.

我們支付 45% 的捐款——社會捐款，我們有 ISS 稅。我們有購買稅、州稅。我們有短期議程，我們必須小心對待它們，因為它們會損害信貸投資組合的增長，並增加巴西的利差，我們需要從另一方面發起攻擊。就像我們在巴西降低傳播成本一樣，這是一項偉大的工作。

So the IVA that you commented has its nuances. The finance intermediation tax at 4.65. Well, in no other country of the world, there might be an exception in the IVA or VAT tax. Well, if we just apply this VAT to the incomes of intermediation and services, we are increasing the load on the sector in a material way, specifically making the credit more expensive for the natural person's, the account holders, when we want to work to reduce it. The taxation to reduce the spread and not increase the spread. So I believe that the government is conscious of this. We've seen some official publications and some things that are being worked.

所以你評論的 IVA 有其細微差別。金融中介稅為4.65。嗯，世界上沒有其他國家的 IVA 或增值稅可能有例外。好吧，如果我們只是將增值稅應用於中介和服務的收入，我們就會實質性地增加該行業的負擔，特別是當我們想要工作時，自然人、賬戶持有人的信貸成本會更高。減少它。徵稅是為了減少利差而不是增加利差。所以我相信政府是意識到這一點的。我們已經看到了一些官方出版物和一些正在開展的工作。

But we don't know what the definitive actions will be on the asymmetries. And the third element, we still have a lot of packs asymmetries and the sector. And the companies in the sector that pay less taxes, they did not pay such a contribution tax and there is a social security. So there is an adjustment for the same level playing field.

但我們不知道針對不對稱現象將採取什麼最終行動。第三個要素，我們仍然有很多包不對稱和部門。而納稅較少的行業的公司，他們沒有繳納這樣的貢獻稅，並且有社會保障。所以針對同樣的公平競爭環境進行了調整。

The risks are there. You mentioned a few. We are working in the best way, in a constructive way to give visibility and to explain the impact. So we can avoid an agenda that at the short term might make sense. But you generate structural problems for the economics of society and for the population as a whole, the ones you pay and once you have access to credit, it is more competitive. So I believe that these levers we are working with them and having any news, we will communicate to you.

風險是存在的。你提到了一些。我們正在以最好的方式、以建設性的方式開展工作，以提供可見性並解釋其影響。因此，我們可以避免制定短期內可能有意義的議程。但你會給社會經濟和整個人口帶來結構性問題，你支付的費用一旦獲得信貸，就會更具競爭力。所以我相信我們正在與他們合作，有任何消息，我們都會與您溝通。

Thank you, Milton. The next question will come from Tito Labarta from Goldman Sachs. Tito good to see you and hope to see you in New York.

謝謝你，米爾頓。下一個問題將由高盛的 Tito Labarta 提出。蒂托很高興見到你，並希望在紐約見到你。

My question in English. My question is on the financial margin. A little bit weaker in the quarter, but still overall, pretty strong, particularly financial margin with clients still growing at above the top end of your guidance for the full year. And your volumes doing okay, spreads up a little bit in the quarter while the financial margin with the market a bit weaker in the quarter. So just to help us think about the rest of the year, how that should evolve also in the context of when you expect the rates to come down and what the impact could be on both of those lines from you?

我的問題是英語。我的問題是關於財務利潤的。本季度略有疲軟，但總體而言仍然相當強勁，特別是財務利潤率，客戶的增長仍高於全年指導的上限。你們的銷量表現不錯，在本季度略有上升，而本季度與市場的財務利潤率略有下降。因此，為了幫助我們思考今年剩下的時間，在您預計利率下降的情況下，這種情況應該如何發展，以及這對您的這兩條線可能產生什麼影響？

Okay, Tito. Good to see you again. Thank you very much for your question. So I'll start talking about the clients, the financial margin with clients. What we've been seeing, as you know, there is this seasonal effect on the first quarter. We have less current days in the first quarter. So this is expected. We still believe the guidance is feasible, although we believe there is more challenges now than it was in the very beginning of the year when we released for you to the market the guidance.

好吧，蒂托。很高興再次見到你。非常感謝您的提問。所以我將開始談論客戶，與客戶的財務利潤。如您所知，我們所看到的第一季度存在季節性影響。第一季度的當前天數較少。所以這是預料之中的。我們仍然相信該指導意見是可行的，儘管我們認為現在比我們年初向市場發布指導意見時面臨的挑戰更多。

So our view is that the challenges are bigger now. We still believe that the guidance is the way it is set, it can accommodate our performance in 2023, but with a downward trend. So this is my first view over here. On the repricing on the working capital of the bank, we still have room to do so. So the way we release on the MD&A, you will see that we're still running 400 basis points below the Selic rate. So this repricing that is done throughout the time on the interest rate should be done throughout the year. So we still have some benefits to get from there, okay?

所以我們認為現在的挑戰更大了。我們仍然認為指引是這樣設定的，它可以適應我們 2023 年的業績，但有下降的趨勢。這是我在這裡的第一個觀點。關於銀行營運資金的重新定價，我們還有空間。因此，從我們發布 MD&A 的方式來看，您會發現我們的利率仍比 Selic 利率低 400 個基點。因此，這種在整個時間內對利率進行的重新定價應該在全年進行。所以我們仍然可以從中獲得一些好處，好嗎？

We've been working with more guaranteed lines, although we had some increase in the clean lines in the first quarter due to the seasonal reasons as well. And also, we've been seeing, of course, some products that are kept due to the regulation. That's true for overdraft, that's true for payroll loans, IMSS, so we have to keep an eye on that. So this can put a little pressure on the spreads as well.

我們一直在與更有保障的線路合作，儘管由於季節性原因，我們在第一季度的清潔線路有所增加。當然，我們也看到一些產品因法規而被保留。透支、工資貸款、IMSS 都是如此，所以我們必須密切關注這一點。因此，這也會給利差帶來一些壓力。

So this is our view. We still believe we can do that on the financial market with client. But if I could choose a line to say the geography, even though we believe it is too early to say though, I believe that the financial margin with the client, we have a challenge ahead, but is still confident with the guidance, okay?

這就是我們的觀點。我們仍然相信我們可以在金融市場上與客戶一起做到這一點。但如果我可以選擇一條線來說明地理位置，儘管我們認為現在說還為時過早，但我相信與客戶的財務利潤，我們面臨著挑戰​​，但仍然對指導充滿信心，好嗎？

And talking about the financial market with the market, we've been able to deliver good in recent quarters, I know are challenging, as you know. We had a very good quarter for trading, especially good for banking. That shows the way we've been dynamic in hedging our positions, our AOM and our mismatching in the balance sheet. So we've been able to do so guaranteeing good level of margins quarter-by-quarter and financing the cost of hedge of the capital index as well. So we still believe that it's difficult to predict this line, as you know.

就金融市場而言，我們在最近幾個季度取得了良好的業績，我知道這充滿挑戰，正如你所知。我們的交易季度表現非常好，尤其是銀行業。這表明我們一直在積極對沖我們的頭寸、AOM 和資產負債表的錯配。因此，我們能夠做到逐季保證良好的利潤水平，並為資本指數的對沖成本提供融資。所以我們仍然認為很難預測這條線，正如你所知。

But we still believe that the guidance is reasonable and we should be able to deliver the margin with the market with the guidance that we released at the very beginning. Well, we are seeing more challenges coming from the Latin American operation, especially from Chile. As you know, Itau Chile just released and had the conference call as well. So what they've shown there is that the financial margin with the market in the first quarter was very challenging, especially due to the low inflation environment that we've been seeing there. That shows that as the banks are long in U.S., local inflation, whenever you have lowering inflation, you have other benefits, but in the financial margin with the market you suffer a little bit more. So Chile and the region should be more volatile. And in Brazil, we still believe we can host decent quarters for the coming quarters.

但我們仍然認為該指引是合理的，按照我們一開始發布的指引，我們應該能夠向市場提供保證金。嗯，我們看到拉丁美洲業務面臨更多挑戰，尤其是來自智利。如您所知，Itau Chile 剛剛發布並召開了電話會議。因此，他們所表明的是，第一季度市場的財務利潤非常具有挑戰性，特別是由於我們在那裡看到的低通脹環境。這表明，由於銀行在美國當地通脹方面做多，每當你降低通脹時，你都會得到其他好處，但在與市場的財務保證金方面，你會遭受更多的損失。因此，智利和該地區的局勢應該會更加動盪。在巴西，我們仍然相信我們可以在未來幾個季度取得不錯的表現。

[Interpreted] Now we have Bank of America, Flavio Yoshida.

[解讀] 現在我們有美國銀行，弗拉維奧·吉田。

[Interpreted] My question has to do with the risk appetite here that we have. We noticed the NPL is stable after a stable period of time, but the growth of the portfolio for individuals and companies in Brazil is dropping. So we see that some of the lines for individuals have been more resilient, which is the case of real estate, for instance, so I wanted to understand -- and for consigned credit as well. So we wanted to understand what the future scenario is in your opinion? How do you think we can maybe accelerate that growth?

[解釋]我的問題與我們的風險偏好有關。我們注意到不良貸款在穩定一段時間後趨於穩定，但巴西個人和公司投資組合的增長正在下降。因此，我們看到一些針對個人的信貸額度更具彈性，例如房地產的情況，所以我想了解一下 - 以及委託信貸的情況。所以我們想了解您認為未來的情況是什麼？您認為我們如何才能加速這種增長？

[Interpreted] Flavio, so good to see you. Thank you for that question. It is true. We've been working with the portfolio. We've been working with changes in the concessions for a couple of quarters already because it's going to be challenging. We believe that we are data-driven and we have the ability to manage these risks whenever things get more volatile. So that's the good news. We've been able to have stable trends for individuals. I think our levels are very good right now, and we expect things to be more normal, I would say, more neutral over the next few quarters. So I think naturally, that shows the quality of the portfolio.

[翻譯]弗拉維奧，很高興見到你。謝謝你提出這個問題。是真的。我們一直在與該投資組合合作。幾個季度以來，我們一直在努力改變特許權，因為這將具有挑戰性。我們相信，我們是數據驅動的，只要情況變得更加不穩定，我們就有能力管理這些風險。這就是好消息。我們已經能夠為個人提供穩定的趨勢。我認為我們現在的水平非常好，我們預計未來幾個季度情況會更加正常，更加中性。所以我認為這自然表明了投資組合的質量。

Also, we have the mathematical effect here, the denominator effect, as you were saying, there is a relenting in the portfolios that makes the growth go down in terms of the curve. So the indicators will have more of a pressure. As for the appetite, we're still very focused. We're looking at engagement. We're looking at our medium and high income clients, and we have a very good scaffold, I think. We know which channels, which clients, which ones have a higher risk -- appetite risk.

此外，我們這裡還有數學效應，即分母效應，正如你所說，投資組合的緩和使得曲線上的增長下降。所以指標會有更大的壓力。至於胃口，我們還是很關注的。我們正在考慮參與度。我們正在尋找中高收入客戶，我認為我們有一個非常好的支架。我們知道哪些渠道、哪些客戶、哪些客戶具有更高的風險——偏好風險。

So we won't stop growing. We might grow in a decelerated fashion, but we will still grow. I think that's what we're looking for over the next few quarters. We will continue with the same share in the target clients in terms of risk appetite. And we are losing share in, I would say, clients that we understand are not in the curve that we want to or in the trend that we want to follow. But we know that demand has changed over the next few quarters. So that drop is more relevant from a demand standpoint. We see that there is lower demand.

所以我們不會停止成長。我們可能會以減速的方式增長，但我們仍然會增長。我認為這就是我們在未來幾個季度所尋求的。我們將繼續在目標客戶中保持同樣的風險偏好份額。我想說的是，我們正在失去份額，因為我們知道客戶不在我們想要的曲線或我們想要遵循的趨勢中。但我們知道未來幾個季度的需求發生了變化。因此，從需求的角度來看，這種下降更具相關性。我們看到需求下降。

So in middle market, we have a lower portfolio, and that's because of a lower demand. They're usually working with capital flow. And there's also an exchange rate change. So when we think about the exchange rate for last year and for this quarter, there was a change. The demand is going down around 25% on average. And for individuals, we've also had to adjust a few things. So there was a cap in the consigned credit lines and we've had to adjust because with 197, some of the targets that we had were not sustainable. We had to adjust that. And we're reducing the lines for vehicles and real estate as well. It is still growing, but it's at a lower pace. And we think that, of course, with this level of pricing, there is a lower demand, so there is lower growth curves.

因此，在中間市場，我們的投資組合較低，這是因為需求較低。他們通常從事資本流動工作。還有匯率變化。因此，當我們考慮去年和本季度的匯率時，發生了變化。需求平均下降 25% 左右。對於個人來說，我們還必須調整一些事情。因此，委託信貸額度有一個上限，我們必須進行調整，因為對於 197，我們設定的一些目標是不可持續的。我們必須對此進行調整。我們還減少了車輛和房地產的排隊數量。它仍在增長，但速度較慢。當然，我們認為，在這種定價水平下，需求較低，因此增長曲線較低。

So that's our expectation for 2023, to continue to grow and invest in our main clients. We have a very large portfolio at the bank. So naturally, there is going to be an effect whenever we are working with that transition. But again, we are still growing and with the right appetite in the middle market and also high income lines.

這就是我們對 2023 年的期望，即繼續增長並投資於我們的主要客戶。我們在銀行擁有非常龐大的投資組合。因此，很自然地，每當我們進行這種轉變時，就會產生效果。但同樣，我們仍在增長，並且對中端市場和高收入市場有適當的興趣。

[Interpreted] Now we have Daniel Vaz from Credit Suisse.

[解讀] 現在請來瑞士信貸銀行的丹尼爾·瓦茲 (Daniel Vaz)。

[Interpreted] Well, Milton, I think last time I asked you a question, you told me that you usually have a range of collateral credit of 53%, and you are actually looking at the higher part of this range. So now, thinking about the current scenario, thinking about strategies that you're working with, do you have -- what do you have in terms of trends for the next semester and unsecured lending? I mean, where do you see there is a possibility for higher spread and about balance, thinking about the organic growth that you have right now? So what's your opinion on that, collateral credit, your portfolio, any opinions on that?

[解釋] 嗯，米爾頓，我想上次我問你一個問題時，你告訴我你通常有 53% 的抵押信用範圍，而你實際上關注的是這個範圍的較高部分。那麼現在，考慮一下當前的情況，考慮一下您正在使用的策略，您對下學期和無擔保貸款的趨勢有何了解？我的意思是，考慮到目前的有機增長，您認為哪裡有可能實現更高的利差和平衡？那麼你對此有何看法，抵押信貸，你的投資組合，對此有什麼看法嗎？

[Interpreted] Thank you for that question, Daniel. I think in practical terms, that is happening. We see a deceleration on the guaranteed credit, especially against the past few years. That is going to decelerate. We also see a reduction in general, but that's balanced somehow. If you think about the first quarter, we've been able to grow. Our overdraft for instance, has been better. There is usually a reduction in that because we have people receiving bonuses at the end of the year, et cetera. Also, we've been earning more share in the best ratings and we've been able to also look at the target clients in a better way.

[解釋]謝謝你提出這個問題，丹尼爾。我認為從實際角度來看，這種情況正在發生。我們看到擔保信貸增速放緩，尤其是與過去幾年相比。這將會減速。我們也看到總體上有所減少，但這在某種程度上是平衡的。如果你想想第一季度，我們就實現了增長。例如，我們的透支情況就更好了。通常會有所減少，因為我們有人在年底領取獎金等。此外，我們在最佳評級中獲得了更多份額，並且我們也能夠以更好的方式審視目標客戶。

So we are growing in terms of share with those clients, but there is a lower demand, as I was saying before. So nowadays with these interest rates and these levels, there is a lower demand, that's natural. And that's why we have this monetary strategies whenever there is a deceleration. So even the middle or high income clients, they don't need as much credit at these times because the interest rates are higher and then they just wait a little bit longer to spend important amounts.

因此，正如我之前所說，我們與這些客戶的份額正在增長，但需求卻在下降。因此，如今在這樣的利率和水平下，需求下降，這是很自然的。這就是為什麼每當經濟減速時我們都會採取這種貨幣策略。因此，即使是中等收入或高收入客戶，他們在這些時候也不需要那麼多信貸，因為利率較高，然後他們只需等待更長的時間即可花費重要金額。

So yes, there is a lower demand, but we believe that it's going to be okay to continue to focus on these clients and still adjust the balance sheet of the bank. We're going to continue with the lower rating clients and also focus on the middle and high-income clients, which is what brings really sustainability for our company. So if we have the opportunity, we will continue to grow. What we need is really more demand, and we have to see what the right mix is.

所以，是的，需求有所下降，但我們相信繼續關注這些客戶並仍然調整銀行的資產負債表是可以的。我們將繼續關注較低評級的客戶，並重點關注中高收入客戶，這才是真正為我們公司帶來可持續發展的因素。因此，如果有機會，我們將繼續成長。我們真正需要的是更多的需求，我們必須看看什麼是正確的組合。

For the next one, we're going to switch back because now we have with us Jorge Kuri from Morgan Stanley. Hey, Jorge, welcome and good to see you and I hope to see you tomorrow in New York.

對於下一篇，我們將切換回來，因為現在我們有來自摩根士丹利的 Jorge Kuri。嘿，喬治，歡迎，很高興見到你，我希望明天在紐約見到你。

Congrats on the numbers, and I hope to see you too as well. I wanted to ask about the details on Slide 16 of your presentation, where you have the return on equity by the different business lines. And you were showing for the first quarter on the credit business, 10.4% return on equity. And I wanted to get your perspective on how do you feel this number is relative to the potential? Evidently, when risk-free rate is 13.75, I'm guessing this is not a result that you want to see. And so what are the different levers that are affecting this number? And how do you see them going forward? And in general, longer term, what do you think would be the fair attractive return on equity for your credit business?

恭喜你獲得了這些數字，我也希望見到你。我想詢問您演示文稿第 16 張幻燈片上的詳細信息，其中包含不同業務線的股本回報率。你們顯示第一季度信貸業務的股本回報率為 10.4%。我想了解一下您對這個數字與潛力的關係有何看法？顯然，當無風險利率為13.75時，我猜這不是您希望看到的結果。那麼影響這個數字的不同因素有哪些呢？您如何看待他們的未來？總的來說，從長遠來看，您認為您的信貸業務的公平有吸引力的股本回報率是多少？

Jorge, thank you for your question. Good to see you again. See you -- hope to see you in New York in the coming days. So my sense is the following. So if we go to a historic series, you will see that the return on equity on the credit was always very close to the cost of capital. So the sense is that we saw a huge grow in the cost of equity of the bank in the coming -- in the last quarters. So that put a little bit more pressure in the level of return on equity.

豪爾赫，謝謝你的提問。很高興再次見到你。再見——希望未來幾天能在紐約見到你。所以我的感覺如下。因此，如果我們回顧歷史系列，您會發現信貸的股本回報率始終非常接近資本成本。因此，我們的感覺是，我們看到銀行的股本成本在未來幾個季度將大幅增長。因此，這給股本回報率水平帶來了更大的壓力。

And also, we saw the level of delinquency growing, especially under the credit card portfolio. And I think this is the big impact when we look at credit in terms of returns. So if we separate the credit card portfolio, look to the other portfolios, we are generating a return on equity above the cost of capital. That means that we create value in credit and also the credit doesn't -- the cross-sell doesn't exist without credit. So the reason why we delivered the most relevant part of our value creation has to do with the credit and the cross-sell and the relationship with our clients in all segments. And that means I'm talking about retail, I mean about retail, I mean about corporate clients in general. So this is what we've been seeing.

此外，我們還看到拖欠率不斷上升，特別是在信用卡投資組合方面。我認為，當我們從回報的角度來看待信貸時，這是巨大的影響。因此，如果我們將信用卡投資組合分開，看看其他投資組合，我們就會產生高於資本成本的股本回報率。這意味著我們通過信用創造價值，而信用卻不能創造價值——沒有信用，交叉銷售就不存在。因此，我們之所以提供價值創造中最相關的部分，與信用、交叉銷售以及與所有細分市場客戶的關係有關。這意味著我正在談論零售，我的意思是零售，我的意思是一般的企業客戶。這就是我們所看到的。

So my sense is that coming close to the cost of equity would be reasonable because the major amount of value creation of the bank comes from services. And also in trading, we are able to deliver a little bit more than cost of capital historically. So this is my view. We have to work towards the cost of capital. And I think there is room to do so, especially when we have the delinquency normalized. So we expect to have a better returns, especially under the credit card and auto loans portfolio. Those are the 2 portfolios that suffer a little bit more and brought the level of return a little bit down.

所以我的感覺是，接近股本成本是合理的，因為銀行的價值創造主要來自服務。而且在交易方面，我們能夠提供比歷史上的資本成本稍多一些的服務。這就是我的觀點。我們必須努力降低資本成本。我認為有這樣做的空間，特別是當我們使拖欠行為正常化時。因此，我們預計會有更好的回報，特別是在信用卡和汽車貸款組合下。這兩個投資組合遭受的損失更大一些，回報水平也略有下降。

So with all the measures that we took the adjustments, it's not in one quarter that you will see that. But looking forward, I think it's reasonable to expect cost of equity and return on credit coming in the same direction. This is my best expectation. Now this would be my appetite in terms of reason -- to be good expectation and having something that is reasonable for us.

因此，通過我們採取的所有調整措施，您不會在一個季度內看到這一點。但展望未來，我認為預計股本成本和信貸回報朝著同一方向發展是合理的。這是我最好的期望。現在，這就是我理性的胃口——良好的期望，並擁有對我們來說合理的東西。

[Interpreted] We have our next question here from Eduardo Nishio from Genial.

[解釋] 我們的下一個問題來自 Genial 的 Eduardo Nishio。

Thank you for the conference and congrats on the results. Going back to what Thiago was saying about the return for retail, I see you're making adjustments in your businesses, you have this new perspective on clients and products and considering you've done the rollout in wholesale, and as a consequence, we see that wholesale has seen that effect, has noticed that change in return and profitability. So considering all that, I would like to know what your perspective is for the future rollout for retail?

感謝您召開這次會議並對會議結果表示祝賀。回到蒂亞戈關於零售回報的說法，我看到您正在對業務進行調整，您對客戶和產品有了新的看法，並考慮到您已經完成了批發業務的推出，因此，我們看到批發已經看到了這種效果，已經註意到回報和盈利能力的變化。因此，考慮到所有這些，我想知道您對未來零售業的推出有何看法？

I know you're working on that now. And I understand retail is probably more complicated. I mean, different departments will have some special incentives, I think it's probably difficult to change that perspective completely. So I would like to know more about this initiative. What do you expect in terms of outcomes? Do you think you can improve the top line, the profitability? And also, when do you think you're going to see that ROI going up basically that curve getting better?

我知道你現在正在做這件事。我知道零售業可能更複雜。我的意思是，不同的部門會有一些特殊的激勵措施，我認為可能很難完全改變這種觀點。所以我想更多地了解這個倡議。您對結果有何期望？您認為您可以提高營收和盈利能力嗎？而且，您認為什麼時候您會看到投資回報率基本上上升，曲線變得更好？

[Interpreted] Thank you for that question, Eduardo. Well, we have a project here that's probably one of the main challenges that we have. We started this year with this new structure with new leadership and we're using this as a new operational model. It's the NMO as we call it now. So we do have very important challenges in terms of reorganizing and revisiting the expectations of our clients. We understand that usually, banks are based on the product view.

[解釋]謝謝你提出這個問題，愛德華多。嗯，我們這裡有一個項目，這可能是我們面臨的主要挑戰之一。我們從今年開始就採用了新的結構和新的領導層，並將其用作新的運營模式。這就是我們現在所說的 NMO。因此，在重組和重新審視客戶的期望方面，我們確實面臨著非常重要的挑戰。我們理解，通常銀行是基於產品的角度。

Usually, you focus on the product, on the system, on the structure. What we're trying to do now has to do with 2 effects. First, we have more of a modern platform right now, which is very important. You're not a victim of the old systems anymore. And also, we have the agile way of working, where you have communities that are designed to understand the needs of our clients. It's easy to talk about it, but in practical terms, it is very challenging. I'm not saying this is a simple thing. We have dedicated teams. We have a very high governance level for follow-up for execution.

通常，您關注產品、系統、結構。我們現在要做的與兩個效果有關。首先，我們現在擁有更加現代化的平台，這一點非常重要。您不再是舊系統的受害者。此外，我們擁有敏捷的工作方式，您擁有旨在了解客戶需求的社區。說起來容易，但實際操作起來卻非常有挑戰性。我並不是說這是一件簡單的事情。我們有專門的團隊。我們有非常高的治理水平來跟進執行。

So the whole concept has been defined already. We have started to implement all this already. We're looking at a very important execution phase right now, and we're thinking about the different business units as well. So we talk about different business units for individuals, for companies, for retail, et cetera, et cetera. So we do have a very good P&L, very structured view on that. We are reorganizing our teams right now, and we want to continue to work with these opportunities.

所以整個概念已經被定義了。我們已經開始實施這一切。我們現在正在考慮一個非常重要的執行階段，我們也在考慮不同的業務部門。因此，我們談論針對個人、公司、零售等的不同業務部門。所以我們確實有一個非常好的損益表，對此有非常結構化的看法。我們現在正在重組我們的團隊，我們希望繼續利用這些機會。

As I was saying, structurally-speaking, we're no longer going to have those return levels that we had in the past because the market has completely changed in terms of regulations or competitors as well. And we also have changes in credit levels. So the return levels are going to be lower. But we are focusing on the different units to have more profitability, again, for individuals and also for companies.

正如我所說，從結構上講，我們將不再擁有過去的回報水平，因為市場在法規或競爭對手方面也發生了徹底變化。我們的信用水平也發生了變化。因此，回報水平將會較低。但我們正專注於不同的部門，以便為個人和公司獲得更多的盈利能力。

So we've had a very good catch up, I would say. We've seen a good profitability rise. So again, we started with better results with individuals, but with the right leadership and with the right education, we believe that we're going to see good results. It's not going to happen overnight. Not in this first quarter, but our expectation is for that change to really have good effect over time. And that's going to change profitability, NPS. It's going to change the opinion or the experience of clients as well. So we are going to have more engagement and that's going to be way more relevant because people will see that their needs are -- we're looking at their needs, and we're adapting to that.

所以我想說，我們已經很好地趕上了。我們已經看到盈利能力的良好增長。再說一遍，我們從個人方面取得了更好的結果，但有了正確的領導和正確的教育，我們相信我們會看到良好的結果。這不會在一夜之間發生。不是在第一季度，但我們期望這一變化隨著時間的推移真正產生良好的效果。這將改變盈利能力（NP​​S）。它也將改變客戶的意見或體驗。因此，我們將有更多的參與，這將更加相關，因為人們會看到他們的需求 - 我們正在考慮他們的需求，並且我們正在適應這一點。

So I am sure that, again -- we've done a few reviews on that process, and we want to continue to do so. So we want to focus on clients. And the sum of all these factors is going to maximize everything, not just on our side but also for clients. We have a long way ahead, but so far, so good. And we have very high expectations, and we've started to see some good results.

所以我再次確信，我們已經對該流程進行了一些審查，並且我們希望繼續這樣做。所以我們希望以客戶為中心。所有這些因素的總和將使一切最大化，不僅對我們而言，對客戶也是如此。我們還有很長的路要走，但到目前為止，一切都很好。我們抱有很高的期望，並且我們已經開始看到一些好的結果。

[Interpreted] Thereafter, we have Enrique Navarro from Santander.

[解說] 接下來請來桑坦德銀行的恩里克·納瓦羅 (Enrique Navarro)。

[Interpreted] Congratulations on the results. Now in the issue of provisions, you already started the year if we annualize at the bottom of the guidance. And this is a dynamic that we can consider for the rest of the year, maybe working from the point -- standpoint of the guidance for provisions?

[解讀]恭喜結果。現在，在準備金問題上，如果我們在指導的底部進行年度化，那麼您已經開始了這一年。這是我們在今年剩餘時間裡可以考慮的一個動態，也許可以從條款指導的角度出發？

[Interpreted] Thank you for the question. Still early for the other geographies. Our opinion is that we still have important challenges in the next quarter. If you analyze the first quarter, it takes you naturally to a higher threshold than bottom floor. But when we normalize the wholesale that is contained in the guidance, there might be seasonality in the cost of credit. So the expectation is that it will grow over the last few next quarters without any big events, nothing too unexpected.

[解釋]謝謝你的提問。對於其他地區來說還為時過早。我們認為，下一季度我們仍然面臨重要挑戰。如果你分析第一季度，你自然會發現比底層更高的門檻。但當我們將指導中包含的批發標準化時，信貸成本可能會出現季節性。因此，預計它會在接下來的幾個季度中增長，不會發生任何重大事件，沒有什麼太意外的。

But since wholesale is events, we still are cautious because events might happen all throughout the year and they might bring volatility to the cost of credit, which is something that we haven't observed over the last few quarters. So this is not the bottom of the guidance. We're so comfortable with the guidance. We had no problems delivering the guidance by the cost of credit, it depends on scenario per sector. So cautiousness is welcome. And if we have more news, we will update you.

但由於批發是事件，我們仍然保持謹慎，因為全年都可能發生事件，它們可能會給信貸成本帶來波動，這是我們在過去幾個季度沒有觀察到的情況。所以這不是指導的底部。我們對指導感到非常滿意。我們通過信貸成本提供指導沒有任何問題，這取決於每個部門的情況。因此，謹慎是值得歡迎的。如果我們有更多消息，我們會及時通知您。

[Interpreted] He's going to ask in Portuguese or English but [Juan], welcome. Good to see here in our meeting, please feel free to ask a question in whatever language you prefer.

[口譯]他會用葡萄牙語或英語詢問，但是[胡安]，歡迎。很高興在我們的會議上見到您，請隨意用您喜歡的任何語言提問。

[Interpreted] My question is on the business of -- well, of M&A, the transactional acquiring business is growing year-on-year, much higher than the industry. So I would like to know what would be the drivers for growth? And what type of clients are driving this growth?

[解釋]我的問題是關於併購業務，交易性收購業務正在逐年增長，遠遠高於行業。所以我想知道增長的動力是什麼？哪些類型的客戶正在推動這種增長？

[Interpreted] It's a hybrid question, right? It's a hybrid question, but thanks for the acquiring -- business acquisition. We have been, for many years adjusting the operation. This is a clear change in the service, the value proposition and the results are following suit. So for the standpoint of market share, we've been growing in these segments, that we really have the target segment. And remember that the dynamic of market share and profitability in the business acquisition is inversely proportionate.

[解釋]這是一個混合問題，對吧？這是一個混合問題，但感謝您的收購——業務收購。多年來我們一直在調整運營。這是服務、價值主張和結果的明顯變化。因此，從市場份額的角度來看，我們在這些細分市場上一直在增長，我們確實擁有目標細分市場。請記住，業務收購中的市場份額和盈利能力的動態是成反比的。

So on the same hand from the standpoint that we have the big -- the market share -- the same -- the big clients are driving the 2/3 of the market share. The small ones are driving 2/3 of the profitability. So looking at the share in a broad way is not a good metric. I've been saying that for many years. So we've been growing the market share in those target segments where we believe that we have more opportunities and we have profitability impact.

因此，從同一角度來看，我們擁有大的市場份額，大客戶正在推動 2/3 的市場份額。小企業貢獻了 2/3 的盈利能力。因此，以廣泛的方式看待份額並不是一個好的衡量標準。這句話我已經說了很多年了。因此，我們一直在增加那些目標細分市場的市場份額，我們相信我們在這些目標細分市場中擁有更多機會並且對盈利能力有影響。

We've been ultra disciplined in the big companies and the big corporations. So we do not operate the contribution margin that is negative because in the end of the day, if we do that, we don't have any big challenge to operationally lever this. Well, there is some. But if the contribution margin is negative as we see some players operating in some cases, you cannot have operational leverage. And what you're doing is renting market share and there is a cost. And this is not a play that we believe.

我們在大公司和大企業中一直非常遵守紀律。因此，我們不會採用負的邊際貢獻，因為最終，如果我們這樣做，我們在操作上就不會遇到任何巨大的挑戰。嗯，有一些。但如果貢獻邊際為負（我們看到一些參與者在某些情況下運營），那麼您就無法擁有運營槓桿。你所做的就是租用市場份額，這是有成本的。而這不是我們所相信的戲劇。

We've managed to reprice in a very important way. This increase in interest rate has brought a repricing challenge for the industry as a whole, the closer proximity to the challenges -- to the channels of the year. So having an acquiring that is closer, that is ours, so we don't have to ask for -- excuse me, and we can create more cooperation.

我們設法以一種非常重要的方式重新定價。這次加息給整個行業帶來了重新定價的挑戰，更接近挑戰——今年的渠道。因此，擁有更接近的收購，那是我們的，所以我們不必要求——對不起，我們可以創造更多的合作。

Well, all the operators are umbilically connected, so we can bring more value so that the acquiring is more of a product in the value proposition and not just operating the business. And we've managed -- have greater penetration in the business -- finance products that are helping the clients as the cheaper receivable that they have to discount. So our clients when they have a situation, they demand that and we've had a great capillarity in all these segments. So the repricing and the capillarity of the pricing, the financial products and the changes in the package has made our profitability grow.

那麼，所有的運營商都是臍帶相連的，所以我們可以帶來更多的價值，這樣收購更多的是價值主張中的產品，而不僅僅是運營業務。我們管理的金融產品——在業務中具有更大的滲透力​​——幫助客戶以更便宜的應收賬款打折。因此，當我們的客戶遇到某種情況時，他們會提出這樣的要求，而我們在所有這些領域都有很大的毛細作用。所以重新定價和定價的毛細作用、金融產品和套餐的變化使我們的盈利能力增長了。

In global, our market share is stable. And in the segments where we, in fact, have more of an emphasis, we've managed to gain market share. Once again, we're not going to get into the dispute of renting the market share. We are competitive in pricing. The NPS of the client is fundamental, the operation has been evolving in that sense. Very good in that sense. And this year, this is a result of the acquiring, is substantially larger than the last year, having a contribution that is good for the balance sheet of the bank as a whole.

在全球範圍內，我們的市場份額穩定。事實上，在我們更重視的細分市場中，我們已經成功獲得了市場份額。再說一遍，我們不會捲入租用市場份額的爭論。我們在定價方面具有競爭力。客戶的 NPS 至關重要，從這個意義上說，運營一直在不斷發展。從這個意義上來說非常好。而今年，這是收購的結果，比去年大幅增加，對銀行整體資產負債表的貢獻是有好處的。

Next question comes from Nicolas Riva from Bank America.

下一個問題來自美國銀行的 Nicolas Riva。

I have one question about your bonds, your hybrid bonds. With the -- of course, you didn't call the perps, (inaudible) in December and March. And at the time, you clearly emphasized the economics of the criteria for making the call. I wanted to ask if, with the Tier 2s, with the 29s and with the 31s, given that the structure is a bit different from the AT1, you can only call once, if you don't call the bonds, they start losing capital treatment. Given all of that, if the criteria to this (inaudible) or not to call the Tier 2s is going to be a bit different from the AT1, whatever you can say is going to be helpful.

我有一個關於你們的債券、你們的混合債券的問題。當然，你在 12 月和 3 月沒有給罪犯打電話（聽不清）。當時，您明確強調了做出決定的標準的經濟性。我想問一下，Tier 2s、29s和31s，考慮到結構與AT1有點不同，你只能贖回一次，如果你不贖回債券，他們就會開始損失資本治療。考慮到所有這些，如果（聽不清）或不調用 Tier 2 的標準與 AT1 略有不同，那麼無論您說什麼都會有幫助。

Thank you very much, Nicolas. Good to see you again. So very clear. So when you look to the yield or the coupon that we reset in the AT1s, we said something around 7.5% and 8% ballpark. If we had to go and access the market for a new AT1, although we know that the market is different now after what we saw of the Credit Suisse event, we might see more challenging and new issuance premium but what we see now and the price that we are that we could reset the bonds at 250 basis points below what would be a new issuance.

非常感謝你，尼古拉斯。很高興再次見到你。所以非常清楚。因此，當您查看我們在 AT1 中重置的收益率或優惠券時，我們說的大約是 7.5% 和 8% 左右。如果我們必須進入新 AT1 的市場，儘管我們知道在我們看到瑞士信貸事件之後現在的市場已經不同，我們可能會看到更具挑戰性和新的發行溢價，但我們現在看到的和價格我們認為可以將債券重新設定為比新發行債券低 250 個基點。

So this is pretty relevant for us. So this is basically why we made the decision not to exercise the call. And this will be the case always, we're going to be not only taking a look on the price, we have to take a look in other situations, the level of capital, the bank, alternatives that we have locally or offshore but this was the case.

所以這對我們來說非常相關。因此，這基本上就是我們決定不行使呼籲的原因。情況總是如此，我們不僅要考慮價格，還要考慮其他情況、資本水平、銀行、我們在本地或海外擁有的替代方案，但這個情況就是如此。

The Tier 2 that we have, the Tier 2 is the old Tier 2. So we don't have any benefits in capital anymore but they still have a cost of a Tier 2. So we are always discussing our liability management and the capability to refinance bonds with a senior bond or even in the local market, depending on the yield and we have the capability to issue locally or issue offshore, depending on the yield. So this will be a price discussion considering that we don't have the benefit doing that they are old Tier 2. We don't have the capital benefit anymore and we are fulfilled with our AT1 as well. We have 1.5, which is the regulatory space that we have to issue AT1.

我們擁有的 Tier 2，Tier 2 是舊的 Tier 2。所以我們在資本方面不再有任何好處，但他們仍然有 Tier 2 的成本。所以我們總是在討論我們的負債管理和能力根據收益率，用高級債券甚至在本地市場對債券進行再融資，我們有能力在本地或海外發行，具體取決於收益率。因此，這將是一個價格討論，考慮到我們沒有這樣做的好處，因為他們是舊的 Tier 2。我們不再有資本好處，而且我們對 AT1 也很滿意。我們有1.5，這是我們要發行AT1的監管空間。

So this will be basically the reasons and how we're going to be deciding and accessing the market moving forward. And we have a very good liquidity situation all days. So we might decide to repay or not depending on the yield and the possibilities that we see in the market in the moment of making this decision.

因此，這基本上就是我們將如何決定和進入市場的原因。我們整天都擁有非常好的流動性狀況。因此，我們可能會根據收益率以及我們在做出決定時在市場上看到的可能性來決定是否還款。

[Interpreted] Now we have Renato Meloni from Autonomous.

[解讀] 現在我們有來自 Autonomous 的雷納托·梅洛尼 (Renato Meloni)。

Can you talk about the dynamic, corporate lending for the rest of the year. So NPLs, they've increased, but they are at a level that is very reduced. Do you have the expectation that, that's going to increase? Also growth, is there still going to be difficult to grow or continue to drop?

您能談談今年剩餘時間裡充滿活力的企業貸款嗎？因此，不良貸款有所增加，但仍處於大幅下降的水平。您預計這一數字會增加嗎？還有增長，是還會很難增長還是繼續下降？

[Interpreted] Starting with the NPL and the specific segment of wholesale, we don't look at the NPL because it's misleading in terms of the quality of the portfolio. We're looking at the coverage level because since we have an access to the client, a client to client, we defined the level of rating, provisions, name on NIM. So 99% of the time, you're provisioned before the event. So the coverage index speaks better on the level of protection that we have in the portfolio and the delay really comes at a moment that you couldn't find a solution for the client and then there's delinquency and it consumes on the coverage. So the cost of credit in that segment is very low.

[解讀]從不良貸款和批發的特定部分開始，我們不考慮不良貸款，因為它在投資組合的質量方面具有誤導性。我們正在關注覆蓋水平，因為我們可以接觸到客戶，從客戶到客戶，我們在 NIM 上定義了評級、規定和名稱的水平。因此，99% 的情況下，您都會在活動之前進行配置。因此，覆蓋指數更好地說明了我們在投資組合中擁有的保護水平，並且延遲確實發生在您無法為客戶找到解決方案的時刻，然後出現拖欠並消耗了覆蓋範圍。因此該領域的信貸成本非常低。

We've gone through a scenario of normalization. In the other assets, we came from a very strong crisis in 2015, '16, several clients and well recovered all throughout the years, at the cost of credit, yes, but also some reversals. We got to a very low threshold.

我們已經經歷了正常化的場景。在其他資產方面，我們在 2015 年、16 年經歷了一場非常嚴重的危機，幾個客戶多年來都得到了很好的恢復，但代價是信貸，是的，但也有一些逆轉。我們的門檻非常低。

In general, what we've seen, the portfolio is very healthy in terms of quality, the process of management of portfolio is that we've grown all throughout the years, it has grown. I gave a few highlights even on how we deconcentrate our portfolio, how we adjusted it for the more sensitive sectors, reduced exposure, diversifying the portfolio. We need to segment that as a strong performance over the last few years. Our expectation is to have lower demand. This is what we've observed. That is taking place on the other hand. Important to show that on the side of capital markets, the origination drop was brutal when we compare this year to the previous year.

總的來說，我們所看到的，投資組合在質量方面非常健康，投資組合的管理過程是我們多年來一直在成長，它一直在成長。我還重點介紹了我們如何分散投資組合、如何針對更敏感的行業進行調整、減少風險敞口、使投資組合多樣化。我們需要將其劃分為過去幾年的強勁表現。我們的預期是需求下降。這就是我們觀察到的情況。另一方面，這種情況正在發生。重要的是要表明，在資本市場方面，當我們將今年與前一年進行比較時，起源下降是殘酷的。

So the capital market is very close. We see a good liquidity volume in the credit funds, over BRL 1 trillion in these funds. But with a price dynamic and the opening of interest rates, they may have more cash than appetite. So that means that the capital markets closed, has a lot of refinancing, a lot of companies that will access to market. All throughout the year, they have their boss, their debentures or you name it. They don't have the capacity to rolling this out. So the balance of the bank is the most important right now in that sense.

所以資本市場是非常接近的。我們看到信貸基金的流動性良好，超過 1 萬億雷亞爾。但隨著價格動態和利率的開放，他們的現金可能會多於胃口。所以這意味著資本市場關閉，有大量的再融資，很多公司將進入市場。一年到頭，他們都有自己的老闆，有自己的債券，或者你能想到的。他們沒有能力推出這個。因此，從這個意義上說，銀行的餘額目前是最重要的。

So on the other hand, you have a drop in that, but there is opportunity of refinancing and the absorbents of these capital operations with good levels of return. We will have great opportunities in the segments that access less capital markets, yes, on those we have less demand, and we are growing on those and improving the quality of the portfolio all throughout the years.

因此，另一方面，你的投資有所下降，但有再融資的機會，並且這些資本運作的吸收劑具有良好的回報水平。在進入資本市場較少的領域，我們將擁有巨大的機會，是的，在我們需求較少的領域，我們多年來一直在這些領域不斷成長，並提高投資組合的質量。

This is a challenge. But once again, I'm talking about the gradual normalization. We hope that the cost of credit will grow. And the previous thresholds were unsustainable. We know that. And that will happen in the next few years, but we are not foreseeing a credit crunch that will be as relevant as we've seen in '15, '16. There are some Chapter 11s here and there, but all the cases were published.

這是一個挑戰。但我再次談論的是逐步正常化。我們希望信貸成本將會增加。而之前的門檻是不可持續的。我們知道。這將在未來幾年內發生，但我們預計不會出現像 15 年、16 年那樣嚴重的信貸緊縮。到處都有一些第11章，但所有案例都已出版。

We don't have exposure or -- either we don't have exposure or we're well provisioned. The portfolio is well defined and our provisions are very solid. So we -- how tempesterous we are in our work, we are doing well and we are not waiting for the delay. We work on the expected loss. So any deterioration scenario, we will call those provisions as we've always worked with the balance sheet here.

我們沒有曝光度，或者——要么我們沒有曝光度，要么我們準備充分。投資組合定義明確，我們的規定也非常可靠。所以我們——我們的工作多麼激烈，我們做得很好，我們不會等待延誤。我們研究預期損失。因此，任何惡化的情況，我們都會稱之為準備金，因為我們一直在這里處理資產負債表。

Thank you, Milton. I'm going to go back to English because you had with us, Gilberto Garcia from Barclays. Gilberto good to see you. Thanks for joining our call.

謝謝你，米爾頓。我要回到英語，因為巴克萊銀行的吉爾伯托·加西亞（Gilberto Garcia）和我們在一起。吉爾伯托很高興見到你。感謝您加入我們的通話。

I had a question on credit cards. You have mentioned that your clients, given the grades are high, are reducing their demand for credit and some of your peers have also said that they are going to try to refocus on this higher income second, which presumably means more competition for you. And ultimately, there's also the matter of seasonality. Most years, the first quarter has a bit of a sequential decline in credit cards. And I was wondering if you could give us some color on what the main driver is in your view? Are you seeing more competition? Or is it just back to normal in terms of seasonality?

我有一個關於信用卡的問題。您提到，鑑於成績較高，您的客戶正在減少對信貸的需求，而您的一些同行也表示，他們將嘗試重新關注更高收入的第二個，這可能意味著對您來說更多的競爭。最終，還有季節性問題。大多數年份，第一季度信用卡數量都會出現連續下降。我想知道您能否告訴我們您認為主要驅動力是什麼？您是否看到更多競爭？還是只是季節性回歸正常？

I think the first quarter is pure seasonality due to the high amount of transactions in the last quarter, as you know. But yes, we've been making adjustments -- relevant adjustments in our portfolio. I was showing a little before that we were growing much more in the clients, not only in volumes but in credit card products that we have in the more affluent clients, and we've been reducing in the other segment. So this is an important information.

我認為第一季度是純粹的季節性因素，因為如你所知，上季度交易量很大。但是，是的，我們一直在進行調整——對我們的投資組合進行相關調整。我之前曾展示過，我們在客戶方面的增長要快得多，不僅在數量上，而且在我們為更富裕的客戶提供的信用卡產品方面，我們一直在減少其他領域的業務。所以這是一個重要的信息。

With all of that, we've been able to maintain a good level of revenues. We still have some entities, fees paid, so they are less volatile due to the TPV of our portfolio. And yes, we've been able to grow the portfolio with the more affluent clients. We don't see a different level of competition. We see the same. But on the other hand, as a whole, I feel that the credit card was the selected product for many newcomers in the market. So that's where we saw an overwhelming offer of credit card and somehow many clients are over-leverage nowadays with their income very compromised due to the amount of credit -- quantity of credit cards they have.

憑藉所有這些，我們能夠保持良好的收入水平。我們仍然有一些實體，已支付費用，因此由於我們投資組合的 TPV，它們的波動性較小。是的，我們已經能夠與更富裕的客戶一起擴大投資組合。我們沒有看到不同程度的競爭。我們也看到同樣的情況。但另一方面，從整體上來說，我覺得信用卡是很多新入市的人選擇的產品。因此，我們看到了信用卡的壓倒性優惠，不知何故，現在許多客戶過度槓桿化，他們的收入由於信用額度（他們擁有的信用卡數量）而受到很大影響。

Now this is very easy to have 3, 4, 5, 10 credit cards because we don't pay fees for that. So it's a free option to have you that, to have our credit card. And there is a lot of lack of education, and this is something that we are working a lot, to help our clients to understand the challenges when he has or she has or the client has many credit cards in their wallet. So this is the phenomenon that we saw. So there is a huge adjustment being done in the market. We've been seeing different levels of returns in these operations. You know the balance sheets are public, you can have the assessment. But I can tell you right now, there is no one making or creating value in a portfolio like that due to the cost of equity.

現在擁有 3、4、5、10 張信用卡是很容易的，因為我們不為此支付費用。因此，擁有我們的信用卡是一個免費的選擇。教育方面存在很多不足，這是我們正在努力的事情，以幫助我們的客戶了解當他或她擁有或客戶錢包裡有很多信用卡時所面臨的挑戰。這就是我們看到的現象。所以市場正在發生巨大的調整。我們在這些業務中看到了不同程度的回報。你知道資產負債表是公開的，你可以進行評估。但我現在可以告訴你，由於股權成本，沒有人能夠在這樣的投資組合中創造或創造價值。

So we will see an important reduction, yes. But as I said, we are growing the affluent portfolio where we believe there is still a lot of opportunity to do so. So a lot of cross-sell to be done. And we've been able to grow our portfolio, our client base and to enhance the penetration of credit card with a good product, good UX, very focused on NPS. This has been our main goal, and we've been achieving that. But we don't see a different competition than what we saw. But yes, we might see more competition, but we are ready to do so. It's part of the game.

所以我們會看到大幅減少，是的。但正如我所說，我們正在擴大豐富的投資組合，我們相信仍有很多機會這樣做。因此需要進行大量的交叉銷售。我們已經能夠通過良好的產品、良好的用戶體驗和非常關注 NPS 來擴大我們的產品組合、客戶群，並提高信用卡的滲透率。這是我們的主要目標，並且我們一直在實現這一目標。但我們並沒有看到與我們所看到的不同的競爭。但是，是的，我們可能會看到更多的競爭，但我們已經準備好這樣做。這是遊戲的一部分。

[Interpreted] Next question comes from Natalia Corfield from JPMorgan.

[解讀]下一個問題來自摩根大通的 Natalia Corfield。

[Interpreted] Now I'm going to go back to the Tier 2 that Nicolas has mentioned. I believe that he is talking about the (inaudible) tier 2 that we have a call next year, the 2029, if I am not wrong in November '24. Just so I can understand, how are you thinking about the call of that bond giving that it loses the capital treatment after the call gradually, but it will lose, lose, lose and there is just one call, which is the next year's call?

[解釋] 現在我要回到 Nicolas 提到的第 2 層。我相信他正在談論（聽不清）第二層，如果我在 24 年 11 月沒記錯的話，我們明年（即 2029 年）將進行電話會議。我可以理解，您如何看待該債券的贖回權，因為它在贖回後逐漸失去資本待遇，但它會虧損，虧損，虧損，只有一次贖回，即下一年的贖回？

[Interpreted] Thank you, Natalia. About that specific one, it gets into the regressive period of capital utilization after the exercise or not of the call. We -- it's a long time before. It's difficult to talk about today. If we're going to do a call next year in November, we're going to wait for the market conditions. The markets might change. We're going to look at local alternatives, external alternatives, we're going to look at price, what is the return vis-a-vis a new operations. So the bank is very active in the capital management and liquidity and if we understand that the economics are there, and we can finance ourselves in a more efficient way, the exercise of the call can be done.

[翻譯]謝謝你，娜塔莉亞。具體而言，行權或不行權後，均進入資金運用的遞減期。我們——那是很久以前的事了。今天很難談論。如果我們要在明年 11 月進行電話會議，我們將等待市場狀況。市場可能會發生變化。我們將考慮本地替代方案、外部替代方案，我們將考慮價格以及相對於新業務的回報率。因此，銀行在資本管理和流動性方面非常積極，如果我們了解經濟因素，並且我們可以以更有效的方式為自己融資，那麼就可以行使贖回權。

If we think that the runoff and we have the capital level and losing efficiency, the prices are -- this bond is becoming senior, it will depend on the market conditions. So it's very, very difficult. With 1.5 years of anticipation, 18 months to have any assessments. So as we get closer to the call up ahead, as we did with the AT1, we're going to be very transparent and we are going to anticipate in doing those and what is the following direction.

如果我們認為徑流，我們的資本水平和效率正在下降，那麼價格就是——這種債券正在變得更高級，這將取決於市場狀況。所以這是非常非常困難的。 1.5 年的預期，18 個月的時間進行評估。因此，當我們越來越接近前面的電話會議時，就像我們對 AT1 所做的那樣，我們將非常透明，我們將在做這些事情時預期以及接下來的方向是什麼。

Now going to go to the last question from Carlos Gomez, HSBC.

現在回答匯豐銀行卡洛斯·戈麥斯提出的最後一個問題。

And since it is the last one, let's try to be a bit more optimistic. We are in the middle of the first year of this administration, and we've been talking about what happens in 2023, evolution of credit, lending less. What do you expect for the next 3.5 years? What rate of growth do you think is realistic for the bank and for the Brazilian credit industry for the rest of the current administration?

既然這是最後一次，我們就盡量樂觀一點。我們正處於本屆政府第一年的中期，我們一直在討論 2023 年會發生什麼、信貸的演變、貸款的減少。您對未來3.5年有何期望？對於現任政府的其他成員，您認為銀行和巴西信貸行業的實際增長率是多少？

Carlos, it's a good question to be the last question. So my view is that we still, as you know, we're going to make in 100 years next year. So we run the bank in respect of the scenario and the challenge that we see in Brazil. You might have longer or shorter cycles. So our view is that we still have challenges ahead. There is a lot of things going on in the Congress right now. There is all these discussions of the tax, the fiscal frame, which is very important to understand how it's going to be approved in the Congress. This is very, very relevant for the future of the country, sustainability of the debt.

卡洛斯，最後一個問題問得很好。所以我的觀點是，如你所知，明年我們仍然會在 100 年後實現盈利。因此，我們根據巴西的情況和挑戰來運營銀行。您的周期可能更長或更短。因此，我們認為我們仍然面臨挑戰。國會現在正在發生很多事情。所有這些關於稅收、財政框架的討論對於了解國會將如何批准它非常重要。這對於國家的未來和債務的可持續性非常非常相關。

There is a lot of discussions to be done in Congress, the fiscal -- the tax reform which needs to be -- could be very disruptive for Brazil because at the end of the day, the companies in Brazil, you need to simplify the fiscal frame, you need to get more productive, and we have to talk about growth and long-term growth. So I think we still have some structural agenda. We have to pay attention in all the discussions about how the tax reform will succeed in Congress and what will be the key indicators looking forward.

國會有很多討論要做，財政——需要進行的稅收改革——可能對巴西來說非常具有破壞性，因為歸根結底，巴西的公司需要簡化財政政策。框架，你需要提高生產力，我們必須談論增長和長期增長。所以我認為我們仍然有一些結構性議程。我們必須關注國會關於稅收改革將如何取得成功以及未來關鍵指標是什麼的所有討論。

We believe there is still room to work in expenses and also in revenues. We have to take care not to increase the level of taxation in Brazil because 1/3 of the GDP is already taxed. So you need to be very efficient in understanding where to do so, to guarantee that we create the environment for companies and individuals in Brazil to succeed, to prosper. So this is what we really expect.

我們相信在支出和收入方面仍有改進的空間。我們必須注意不要提高巴西的稅收水平，因為已經有 1/3 的 GDP 被徵稅。因此，您需要非常有效地了解在哪裡這樣做，以確保我們為巴西的公司和個人創造成功、繁榮的環境。所以這才是我們真正期望的。

So we don't talk about noise or political noise. I think this is part of the journey, but we do believe that the Congress and the government, and we've been having lots of conversations with the Finance Minister, and we are very positive on the way they want to listen, the way they are trying, with all the political challenges that they have, trying to move forward with a relevant agenda. So we'll be here for the long term. It's difficult to say what would be the next 3.5 years, but we are positive that we have the best conditions to succeed. Brazil is in a unique position due to the geopolitical discussions. We have a huge opportunity.

所以我們不談論噪音或政治噪音。我認為這是旅程的一部分，但我們確實相信國會和政府，我們一直在與財政部長進行大量對話，我們對他們想要傾聽的方式以及他們的方式非常積極他們面臨著所有的政治挑戰，正在努力推進相關議程。所以我們會長期留在這裡。很難說未來 3.5 年會怎樣，但我們確信我們擁有取得成功的最佳條件。由於地緣政治討論，巴西處於獨特的地位。我們有一個巨大的機會。

Argo in Brazil is doing very well. The Energy segment has a lot of opportunities. So we have all the assets we need including the geography situation that we are to succeed. We cannot take and lose this opportunity, but we have a lot of homework to do. It's not going to come easy. And I think we have delivers to do so, but it depends a lot on our capability to coordinate and to work as a country to succeed. So this is our hope. And we -- what depends from Itau Unibanco, we will do our part to help the country and the government to succeed.

巴西的Argo表現非常好。能源領域有很多機會。因此，我們擁有所需的所有資產，包括我們要取得成功的地理位置。我們不能抓住和失去這個機會，但我們還有很多功課要做。這並不容易。我認為我們已經做到了這一點，但這在很大程度上取決於我們作為一個國家的協調和努力的能力以取得成功。所以這就是我們的希望。而我們——Itau Unibanco 將儘自己的一份力量來幫助國家和政府取得成功。

[Interpreted] Thank you so much. Thank you to everyone who participated and sent their questions. I think, well, this is the wrap-up of our Q&A session. This is the end of our conference call for the first quarter of 2023. I would like to thank you, everyone. Thank you to all of the participants. And I reinforce that invitation, Itau Day on June 15 in the morning, you will see a QR code here on the screen. You can register already. You can start sending your questions actually. So that's what we have in terms of a change against last year. This year, you can already send your questions before our meeting. So I'll see you all on June 15. Milton, you have the floor now for the final message.

[已翻譯] 非常感謝。感謝所有參與並提出問題的人。我想，這就是我們問答環節的總結。我們 2023 年第一季度的電話會議到此結束。我要感謝大家。感謝所有參與者。我再次強調這一邀請，即 6 月 15 日早上的伊塔烏日，您將在屏幕上看到一個二維碼。您已經可以註冊了。您實際上可以開始發送您的問題。這就是我們與去年相比的變化。今年，您可以在我們會議之前提出您的問題。那麼我們將於 6 月 15 日見。Milton，現在請您發表最後的信息。

[Interpreted] Thank you. Thank you, Renato. Thank you for being the mediator on this Q&A session. I would like to thank everyone once again for participating, for being here, and I am very happy with the results. I think we know -- we all know there are challenges ahead, but our management capacity, our risk management, our value proposition, all the transformation, digital transformation, cultural transformation and so many other elements that we have in place right now guarantee that we'll have good outcomes.

[已翻譯] 謝謝。謝謝你，雷納托。感謝您擔任本次問答環節的調解人。我要再次感謝大家的參與、來到這裡，我對結果感到非常滿意。我認為我們知道——我們都知道前面存在挑戰，但我們的管理能力、風險管理、價值主張、所有轉型、數字化轉型、文化轉型以及我們現在擁有的許多其他要素保證了我們會有好的結果。

So again, on June 15, as Renato was saying, we'll be here talking about digital transformation, culture businesses, business processes without talking about the nitty-gritty of the figures really, it's going to be more of a P&L perspective, it's going to be a more broad perspective. So I would like to invite all of you to connect on June 15. And again, Itau is here for all of you. This is for investors, for clients, for stakeholders, we appreciate, we value your feedback. We want to be cautious and we want to continue working hard to have the best outcomes possible. Thank you once again, and I'll see you at the conference over the next few days, probably some of you. Otherwise, I'll see you on June 15. Thank you.

所以，6 月 15 日，正如雷納託所說，我們將在這裡討論數字化轉型、文化業務、業務流程，而不真正討論數字的本質，這將更多地是損益表的角度，它是將會有更廣闊的視野。因此，我想邀請大家在 6 月 15 日進行交流。Itau 再次為大家服務。這是為了投資者、客戶、利益相關者，我們感謝並重視您的反饋。我們希望保持謹慎，並希望繼續努力以取得最好的結果。再次感謝大家，接下來幾天我會在會議上見到你們，可能會見到你們中的一些人。否則，我會在 6 月 15 日見。謝謝。

[Portions of this transcript that are marked Interpreted were spoken by an interpreter present on the live call.]

[本文字記錄中標記為“已翻譯”的部分是由現場通話中的口譯員說出的。]