Immersion Corp (IMMR) 2010 Q1 法說會逐字稿

Good day, ladies and gentlemen, and thank you for standing by. Welcome to the Immersion Corporation First Quarter 2010 Conference Call. During today's presentation all parties will be placed in a listen-only mode. Following the presentation the conference will be opened for questions. (Operator Instructions).

And now, I would like to hand the conference over to Mr. Alex Wellins of The Blueshirt Group. Please go ahead, sir.

Good afternoon, and thanks for joining us today. Today after the market closed, Immersion posted its financial results for the first quarter of 2010. This call is also being webcast and can be accessed from the Investor Relations section of the Company's website at immersion.com.

During today's call, management may make forward-looking statements which may include projected financial results for operating metrics, business strategies, anticipated future products, anticipated market demand or opportunities, and other forward-looking topics. These statements are subject to risks, uncertainties and assumptions. Accordingly, our actual results could differ materially. For a listing of the risks that could cause this, please see our latest Form 10-K, as well as the factors identified in today's press release.

With that said, I'll turn the call over to Vic Viegas. Vic?

Thank you, Alex, and thanks, everyone, for joining us this afternoon. Before I begin, I'd like to bring your attention to a separate announcement made after the market closed today.

I'm very pleased to announce that Shum Mukherjee has joined Immersion as our new CFO. Shum brings a deep financial background with the numerous public company environments, having served as CFO for both OpenTV and Genus, a semi-conductor equipment company previously traded on NASDAQ. Shum is here with me on the call today and is looking forward to getting to know our analysts and investors in the near future. Shum, could you please say a little more about your background?

Thank you, Vic. I'm very excited to be joining Immersion at this point in the Company's development. I have quite a range and depth of experience including high-growth public companies as well as turnaround situations.

Early in my career, I was with Raychem, where I served in a variety of capacities including Assistant Treasurer, Assistant Controller and Worldwide Group Controller. Over the last 10 years, I've have enjoyed working at and establishing finance teams at smaller public technology companies like E*Trade, Genus and most recently, OpenTV.

I'm looking forward to working with the Immersion team to help grow the Company profitably.

Back to you, Vic.

Thanks, Shum. Given that Shum has only just joined us, I will deliver our formal remarks today. I'll start by providing a brief summary of our high-level financial results for the first quarter, followed by a discussion of recent developments since our last call.

Total first quarter revenues of $9.7 million were up approximately 29% from $7.5 million in the same period last year. Royalty and license revenue grew 69% to $6.4 million and represented approximately 66% of total revenue. Solid growth in royalty and license revenue was driven by continued traction for our haptic solutions within the mobile market. We also saw increased momentum for our technology within other key market segments, including medical licensing and chip partnerships.

Products sales of $3 million include revenue for the first quarter prior to the sale of our laparoscopy, endoscopy and endovascular medical product lines to CAE Healthcare, which was completed on March 31. These product lines accounted for approximately $2 million in Q1. While we no longer plan to breakout revenue by touch and medical starting next quarter, I will provide that data for you today for comparison's sake.

Touch revenues for the first quarter increased by 54% to $6.8 million from the prior year period and represented 70% of total revenue, while medical revenues declined by 6% to $2.9 million from the prior year period and represented 30% of total revenue.

First quarter total costs and expenses of $12.1 million declined by $2.6 million or 18% from the prior year period. Net loss for the first quarter totaled $2.7 million or $0.09 per share as compared to a net loss of $6.1 million or $0.22 per share in the same period last year.

One internal metric that we're pleased to see, our operating loss of $2.4 million crosses over into profitability when we adjust for one-time investigation and restatement expenses of $1.6 million, as well as non-cash expenses of $1.1 million for depreciation, amortization and stock-based compensation. We ended the year with cash, cash equivalents and short-term investments of $64.6 million, actually that number is as of the end of the quarter. At the end of the quarter, we had $64.6 million as compared to $63.7 million exiting the December quarter.

Given that it's only been a few weeks since our last update, I'm going to keep the rest of my comments fairly brief. But, I'd like to highlight a few important developments since our last call.

First, I'm delighted to now be serving as Immersion's ongoing CEO and deeply appreciate the Board's confidence in my ability to help the Company realize its full growth potential. While I have a long tenure with the Company, I'm more energized than ever based on the opportunities to leverage Immersion's rich technology assets. And I feel my background is an excellent fit to extract value from our new pure-play licensing business strategy.

When we first introduce the technology, we had the challenge of having to educate the market from scratch on what haptics is and why it's important to the emerging digital lifestyle.

We were fortunate to have a few key early adopters and design wins that helped establish Immersion's value proposition within our core verticals. As I look at our markets today, it's fair to say that most leading OEMs have realized the importance of engaging the sense of touch to deliver intuitive user interfaces and a better overall experience for consumers.

In the migration to touchscreens, tactile confirmation and accuracy are a major part of this equation. As a company, we believe that any touch-enabled device without haptics is broken and we think we're on the cusp of seeing haptics embraced on a much broader scale moving forward.

Another aspect that drove my decision to accept the role of CEO is the depth and breadth of talent across the organization and particularly within Immersion senior management team. With Shum now joining us as Chief Financial Officer, the build out of our executive team is complete. And I firmly believe that we have the right set of leaders in place to carry the Company forward.

We successfully executed a transaction with CAE Healthcare on March 30 and we remain very pleased with the clean nature of the transaction, which resulted in no significant write-offs or one-time charges.

The 35 employees affected by the acquisition have successfully made the transition over to CAE, bringing our headcount as of the end of March to 95. The deal was also very favorable to Immersion in that it consisted of both the acquisition of hard assets and healthy ongoing licensing fees in the medical simulation vertical. It also served to quickly establish our goal of becoming a pure-play technology licensing company while bringing us closer to our goal of operating profitability.

At the 2010 Mobile World Congress in Barcelona, we announced new solutions to power touch feedback effects in user experience, design and applications for mobile handsets and other devices. This included our piezo-based TouchSense 5000 solution, which enables true high definition haptic effects for significantly improved feedback quality and fidelity; and our TouchSense 4000 solution, which uses multiple conventional motors to power next generation effects.

Our TouchSense 4000 solution is also incorporated into the Fuse concept phone, which demonstrates multiple interface technologies, including multi-touch capacitive sensing, haptics feedback, 3D graphics and force sensing. Our latest haptics solutions are being very well received by our current and prospective OEMs, with TouchSense 4000 currently available and shipping in our partners' products, and TouchSense 5000 expected to ship in commercial, mobile handsets in the second half of this year.

Nokia just announced their new N8 Phone, planned to hit the market in the next couple of months. Our engineering team worked closely with Nokia to integrate the haptic effects into the fundamental aspects of the UI, making it truly, a truly great example of what haptics can do to transform the user experience.

Also during the quarter, Alcatel-Lucent became a new licensee in the office product sector and they recently showed off their OmniTouch 8082 IP Phone featuring Immersion's haptic technology. The user interface features a 7-inch wide capacitive touchscreen that is LED backlit and includes context aware sensory feedback with Immersion's TouchSense technology.

Immersion is poised to capitalize on another emerging trend with touch-enabled solutions in tablet PCs, where we currently see a lot of design activity.

We continue to expand the ecosystem of partners incorporating Immersion's technology into their product and solutions platforms with the goal of increasing penetration across our various markets. We announced our collaboration with Renesas Electronics, the world's number one supplier of microcontrollers to provide a system-level solution that enables designers of consumer electronics, white goods and medical, building automation and office equipment to integrate rich haptic feedback in their touch surface and touch screen interfaces.

Also in the quarter, we licensed our TouchSense technology to Densitron Corporation, a global leader in the information display technology sector operating in 35 countries. Densitron is focused on integrating our technology into touch screen solutions for medical products, scientific instruments and industrial controls. So as you can see, Immersion is generating strong interest for our solutions, not only in the mobile touch screen market but across a broad array of verticals, where any device with the touch screen or button stands to benefit from our haptics technology.

As you know, we have our annual meeting coming up in early June and as you may have seen in our proxy materials, Robert Van Naarden has decided to retire as a Director of the Board after over seven years of service. I'd like to thank Rob for his valuable insights and contributions over that period and we wish him well in his future endeavors.

As listed in our proxy statement, the Company's candidate for the Board seat to be vacated by Rob is Dave Sugishita. David currently serves as Chairman of the Board of Atmel where he chairs the Audit and Corporate Governance and Nominating Committees and as a Director and Chairman of the Audit Committee for Ditech Networks. His career spans various senior financial management positions, including CFO roles at Synopsys, Actel and Micro Component Technology; Corporate Controller at Applied Materials and VP of Finance at National Semiconductor.

Based on David's distinguished career, extensive Board expertise and strong background in finance and financial controls with well-known technology companies, we think he will be a very positive addition to our Board if elected.

In terms of our near-term outlook, we would expect total revenues in Q2 to be in the range of $6.2 million to $6.7 million. Down on a comparative basis sequentially reflecting our transition to a licensing model as well as typical downward seasonal trends based on our revenue recognition. Even with the seasonally lower quarter, we are on track for the full year 2010 revenue outlook of $25 million to $30 million that I've mentioned in prior call.

As I indicated last quarter, operating expenses are expected to normalize based on lower legal fees and the reduced headcount following the transaction with CAE Healthcare. We achieved our Q1 goal of operating profitability excluding one-time investigation or restatement charges and non-cash expenses for depreciation, amortization and stock-based compensation.

Combined with the benefits of the higher margins associated with our primarily licensing-oriented model, we plan to hit this operating profitability metric for the full year.

To conclude my formal remarks, I think it's clear from the topics discussed today that Immersion is making very tangible progress on a number of fronts. We completed the build out of our executive team with the appointment of a new CFO, adding exceptional talent to an already strong senior management bench. We expanded our overall customer base with the addition of new licensees. We saw further penetration of our technology within our existing customer base and we continue to set the stage for the increased proliferation of Immersion's haptics technology across a number of markets through a growing network of impactful industry partners.

Finally, we're successfully executing toward our revenue and operating targets for the year. And last, but not least, I'd like to remind you that we will be presenting next week at the JMP Securities Conference, the MDB Bright Lights IT Conference and the TechAmerica Growth Cap Conference.

I'd like to thank you for your continued interest and support of Immersion and we'll now open up the call to your questions. Josh?

Thank you, sir. (Operator Instructions). And our first question comes from the line of Jeff Schreiner with CapStone Investments. Please go ahead.

Yes, good afternoon gentlemen. Welcome, I would like to ask a few questions, I appreciate your time. Given, Vic, that you've achieved several milestones on your to-do list, you're now appointed as CEO, you've now got your new CFO, completed your management team, you spun-off the medical business, what are the next three critical issues for you to tackle and what should we be following?

Well, Jeff, nice to talk to you. We've got quite a few things ahead of us. I would say first and foremost, we've got our Q2 that we want to exceed expectations. And so we're anxiously working towards that. A couple of other kinds of key areas is with Shum joining, I want to make sure that he is successful and so we're working closely in upgrading our whole finance group and moving forward with our remediation plan. Our IT partners are very close to launching some new products and so we want to make sure that we've got all of the marketing support that they need and we're in touch with them on a very frequent regular basis. But those are a few things.

But I guess we've got a number of other goals and milestones. We'd like to bring on board some additional cell phone licensees before the end of the year. I think that's important. We want to make sure our transition to CAE is seamless and very fruitful for them as well. And I think we're anxious in trying to help work with LCD customers to maybe incorporate haptics into LCD modules so we ease the integration challenges that design partners might have. So these are a handful of areas that I'm personally focused and committed to moving the ball forward.

Okay. Thank you for that. What about gross margins, should we expect to see that -- I mean and I know you guys don't typically report a gross margin, but when you kind of look at net cost to sales, should we expect that to start going up as we transition toward your licensing model? And how should we kind of be modeling OpEx for the rest of the year, should it be coming down and then staying flat or are we going to see it come down and start to step backup?

Well, I think we've made quite a few cost reduction moves already and even though during the quarter you had a number of expenses that maybe mask the true reduction in our operating expense numbers. I would expect Q2 for the operating expenses to be relatively normal and to be relatively consistent over the balance of the year. I don't expect us to have an immediate reduction and then substantial growth in operating expenses. I think we'll get to the current operating level and probably maintain that level for at least the next three or four quarters.

Okay. And then, one more from me and then I'll jump off for the time being, but I noticed that cash was up for the quarter. How should we be looking at cash for the remainder of 2010, should it be flat to up from here, was -- are we done with seeing the cash burn that we've seen over the last few quarters?

My goal is to end up the year with more cash than we started the year and so while in any given quarter, it could be additive or slightly negative. I think over the full year, if you measure us against that body of work, our goal will be to be cash positive for the full year.

Okay. Well, welcome Shum and thank you very much, gentlemen, for taking the time to answer my questions.

Thanks a lot, Jeff.

Thanks.

Thank you. And our next question comes from the line of Mark Argento with Craig-Hallum. Please go ahead.

Hi, good afternoon, guys.

Hey, Mark.

I apologize because I hopped on the call little late. But, the delta -- you guys reported almost close to $10 million, what was the delta given the fact that you guys gave guidance so late in the quarter that ended up driving that extra almost $2 million in upside to the revenues?

Yeah, I think we said we're somewhere in the $7 million to $8 million range was our guidance and at the time that was the best estimate that I had. We ended up the third quarter at $9.7 million as you stated. When we announced that we were transitioning out of the medical product line business, there were some concerns that the orders for that market area would dry up or change significantly. At the time we didn't have all the royalty reports in hand. We hadn't yet done a full analysis of all the contract revenue. And there is always late in the quarter, contractual commitments, whether it's delivering a product or achieving a milestone and those are sometimes at risk. And so, again when I gave the guidance, it was my best estimate at the time. It turns out this quarter there were obviously quite a few things that occurred late such as, product systems for medical and deliverables contract signings, so very happy to please -- to report on a positive and the upside of that estimate.

Well, I just wanted to make sure it wasn't like a one-time event that came in or that it was just the business out performance, so it sounds like that's the case?

Yeah. No, it was not any one-time event, it was solid result across the board and again revenue comes in from royalty reports, contracts, service agreement, NRE agreements and product shipments. And so, I think you see a lot of hard work from a lot of people resulted in a good quarter, but not a one-time event.

I'm going to kind of shift gears a little bit because I know we just talked, not long ago, on your Q4 call. But I really want to kind of delve into, or at least maybe throw it out there for the beginning of a longer discussion at some point, the whole value of your IP portfolio. It strikes me you guys have a tremendous amount of IP, hundreds of patents and then hundreds of patents pending or in process. I want to know if you guys have really put a process in place or started to think about strategically, how to really create more value with that IP?

Because the one trend we're starting to see across IP LAN is that a lot of companies don't even know they have a lot of value in their IP portfolios, because there is a specific skill set, or technology or I should say process that you need to go through in actually extracting value. And I just wanted to see have you guys thought about that? How could you potentially go about creating more value with some of that latent IP in your portfolio? And I guess, is there an opportunity that we could see you guys start to get a little creative instead of trying to just create products, but maybe go on and get a little more aggressive on the licensing side or the assertion side like you have in the past?

Well, to answer your question, we think about it a lot and -- but there is always room for improvement. But I think we do a fairly good job at least on the internal efforts and that is, we've got very innovative people solving problems everyday in lots of different industries and lots of different product areas. So we're good at creating innovative solutions. We capture that very well. And we -- I think do a pretty good job of prosecuting patent applications and making sure that we have very relevant IP that it's meaningful and that it's properly protected there. So I think we do a good job there.

Where we probably will invest more time and energy going forward is how we work with the IP portfolio, more of an external phasing life. We want to make sure we bring good solutions to our customers and we continue to work closely with them. In some cases, there are solutions in the market that are not license solutions that may be covered under our IP. I think we will accelerate our own efforts to evaluate and analyze the marketplace, the competition in light of our IP. And I think we will take the appropriate action. So, a fine balance between working with prospective licensees and litigation. And as you know the history here is that we're very careful about how we use litigation and we are not about to change that. We'll be very thoughtful about how we proceed.

Great, I would just -- of course, my suggestion, I think you've got a tremendous amount of IP value there that is not really being realized and of course it doesn't sit on your balance sheet. You can't pick up a value in it in the financials. But, I would really -- the suggestion I have is that you guys should really take a deep dive look there and look at some of solutions on the marketplace of which, of course, I have some that I could suggest. But really coming up with a cutting edge way of looking at that IP, like I said the world has changed dramatically in terms of how companies, big companies, little companies, but how companies in general look at IP. And you guys should benefit from that tremendously. So, I really hope you guys take advantage of the kind of the market and the time and really leverage that portfolio. So...

I appreciate your thoughts and I completely agree.

Thanks guys.

Thanks a lot, Mark.

Thank you. And our next question comes from the line of Aaron Husock with Lanexa Global Management. Please go ahead.

Great. Thanks for taking my questions. I've got a couple. Maybe just first a kind of housekeeping question. Can you tell us what handset unit shipments were in the quarter by your partners?

No, I don't have that number, Aaron, I'm sorry, but not the number we are tracking right now. We didn't have -- we don't have that number for Q1.

Okay. So looking at the guidance, is -- would you say that $7.7 million is kind of the right kind of number for us to compare your guidance to; $7.7 million in revenue in Q1. Is that kind of the steady state number that we should be comparing the $6.2 million to $6.7 million to?

Yes, I think that's the right comparison. I think the $7.7 million you arrive at that at the $9.7 million minus the product revenue from the products that we transitioned to CAE. So I think $7.7 million compared to $6.2 million to $6.7 million for Q2 that's an apples-to-apple comparison.

Okay. So, if I look at that as kind of a 16% sequentially at the midpoint. And I know you don't really have all the royalty reports in yet or anything like that. But if I look, I mean Samsung, who is your biggest or close to your biggest handset customer so that their touch screen unit volume was actually up and bucked normal seasonality in the March quarter. And then Nokia had some models that did do quite well that were touch models in the March quarter. I mean, can you kind of talk about what is embedded in the guidance, as far as -- you just -- is there some degree of conservatism because you don't have all the royalty reports? Or do you see a more pronounced seasonality in gaming or auto because it certainly looks like your handset business had another good quarter in the March quarter that you have report in arrears?

Well, I would say that the guidance that we are giving, we would love to be able to comment at the high-end of that or even beat those numbers. But given where we are today, as we add up the elements from each of the different verticals, there is no doubt going to be some seasonality. And so without having that information in hand and maybe just working with industry data, it's -- I haven't yet reconciled the differences, if there are any. So, I think given what we know in all the different markets, the seasonality is not surprising. It occurs almost every year. You hope to grow new areas to offset the seasonality. But given where we are at today, given the information I have, that's about the guidance that I am comfortable giving.

Okay. Your touch sales were up I think around 56% sequentially in the March quarter. It's a very sizable sequential growth. Can you give us a sense for kind of where the bulk of that growth came from? I mean, do you have kind of a number for what your mobility sales increased sequentially? Because that's -- and that's very rapid growth.

Yes, I would probably point you to some of the details that will be in the 10-Q that we'll be filing here shortly. I think we had a good quarter on the mobile side and also on the gaming side. Other than that, I am not sure I can point you to what was meaningful, because it really felt like it came across most of all -- all of our verticals.

Okay. Maybe just one more for me and then I'll get back in line. You talked about how you are going to get down to kind of a steady state operating expense level in Q2. Would you say that's probably a number that's like $7 million or a little lower or kind of what you are thinking as far as what's the normal operating expense structure this company post the divestiture?

Well, I think if you are looking at cash versus non-cash. If you just did a simple reconciliation to the first quarter OpEx, if you backed out our cost of goods sold and you backed out the cost of the restatement, you are somewhere in the $9 million range. And then you've got another $1 million or so, $1.1 million in non-cash expenses, which gets you closer to $8 million. And then if you back out expenses related to the medical operation of another $1 million. I think you are coming in at about $7 million when you exclude the non-cash expense. It's probably closer to $8 million when you include the cash-based expenses.

I mean, so does it -- was the medical related OpEx only $1 million in the quarter? Isn't it -- it's roughly a third of the work force, right?

Well, you've got some of the people are in the cost of goods sold, so it's a different mix. And I don't have a precise set of numbers. We don't really disclose that that closely. So, it's in that $1 million range; is what I'm using to arrive at $8 million in total touch expenses.

Okay, okay. That makes sense. Okay, great. Thank you.

Thank you, Aaron.

(Operator Instructions). And our next question comes from the line of Shawn Boyd with Westcliff Capital Management. Please go ahead.

Hi, Vic. How are you doing?

Fine. Thanks Shawn.

I just wanted to touch on a couple of things. In terms of the touch interface revenues, $6.8 million in the quarter. Can you help us on how many different models or how many different -- and actually models of devices contributed to that versus contributing a year ago to the $4.4 million?

Shawn, we have so many models in so many different verticals. So, I'm not going to be able to really give you any metrics to compare to. At any given moment, there are dozens of products in queue ready to launch. And then depending on end-of-life cycles and how our partners support those in the market, there are lots of different ways to measure, but we don't spend a lot of time and energy in trying to cut it that precise or that fine. So, I'd say no, I really am not able to tell you because there is just so many, we don't track them that way.

Okay. Can you characterize in any way, such that there are two or three above 10% or is it more granular than that?

Well, I'd say more from a macro standpoint, I think if you look at the 2009 numbers, we were in 75 million phones out of a couple of a hundred million touch screen phones and that's about 30%. And as we look at the current pipeline and the models that are launching in the mobile market space, we think our penetration is continuing to grow. So, there are more touch screen phones and our penetration rates are going up as well.

In other areas, I think we believe we are gaining ground and increasing our model wins, design wins and volumes. So, pretty much across the board, I'd say we are continuing to grow our base of business. I don't see any areas where we are losing ground right now.

Got it. Okay. And in the guidance that you gave for total revenues for the June quarter, do we have a maybe just over $1 million in product sales still in the model that's embedded in that guidance?

Well, so you've got -- essentially you've got revenue that we derive from mobility, from gaming, from automotive, and also from medical. And on the medical side, you're going to have license fees and royalties and you're also going to have some product sales because we do retain one product line in the virtual IV. And so that that will continue to provide us with revenue. And so, whether it's $1 million, I don't know what the exact number is, but when you add up all of those verticals, the total revenue is in that $6.2 million to $6.7 million range that I gave.

Got it, got it, okay. And on expenses, you mentioned in the press release that we've got depreciation, amortization and stock comp, all totaling about $1.1 million. We know amortization at $235,000. Can you just breakout depreciation and stock comp for us?

I don't have it with me, but I know it's in the cash flow statement in the Q. So, if you take a quicker look at that, I think when we file in the next day or two, you'll have all that detail for it right there.

Okay, perfect. And do you expect that level -- that combined level, that $1.1 million to stay fairly flat going forward?

Actually I think it may go up a little bit, but I think that number is not too far off.

Okay. Okay, that's it for me. Thank you.

Thanks Shawn.

Thank you. And our final question is a follow-up question from the line of Aaron Husock with Lanexa Global Management. Please go ahead.

Great, thanks. If you look at gross margin now after the divestiture, I mean you only have a tiny bit of product sales left. Can we kind of think of this as a mid-90s gross margin business now?

Yes, I think that's our assumption.

Okay, great. And then the Nokia NA -- it sounds like you guys have done a lot of work on this and are working very closely with Nokia. Should we think of this as it just kind of falls under your generic Nokia contract? Or is this one where, if you segment your product line, good/better/best, they are taking a better or best functionality, not just the good functionality and maybe paying a little extra for it?

No, I'd say it's covered by the Nokia agreement. The highlight that we're trying to point out was that our engineers have worked closely with their engineers and the product solution is pretty compelling. So, we're pleased with the quality of the experience, but it's all covered under the current arrangement we have with Nokia.

Okay. Just one more. If you look at your partnerships with the different semiconductor vendors, Atmel, Cypress, IDT and now Renesas, was there any revenue from those partnerships in the March quarter? And if not, when do you think you'll actually start to see some level of revenue there?

I don't know if I have the number for you or if there was any revenue in the quarter. I can tell you Renesas has been shipping chips, they have a product in the market, and there are consumer products. I know there is a PND product in the market. So, we've been generating revenue from Renesas here for a bit. In terms of Cypress and Atmel, I think those two products are expected to come later this year.

Okay, great. Thank you. Congratulations.

Thanks Aaron.

Thank you. And we have one more question from the line of Shawn Boyd with Westcliff Capital Management. Please go ahead.

Vic, just a follow-up here. The Company is reaffirming your guidance of $25 million to $30 million in total revenues for the year today, is that correct?

That's right.

And given what we're seeing already here in the March quarter and your guidance for June quarter, it looks as though we're looking for a second half certainly to be -- well, actually to be down slightly if we take that guidance at its word. So my question to you, is there anything that you're seeing out there that would tell you the second half could be flat to down or are we simply being conservative in not taking this guidance up yet?

I don't see anything in the market that says it will be down, but that's the estimate we gave. And given where we are today, I think that's the estimate we're trying to reaffirm.

Okay. Good enough. Thank you. Good luck.

Thank you.

Thank you. And at this time, there are no further questions in the queue. I'll turn it back to management for any further remarks.

Well, thank you, everyone, for being on the call today. We look forward to seeing you on the road and updating you again on our next quarterly call. Thanks for your support. Good bye.

And ladies and gentlemen, this does conclude the Immersion Corporation First Quarter 2010 Conference Call. Thank you for your participation. You may now disconnect.