Everforth, Inc. (EFOR) 2023 Q3 法說會逐字稿

Greetings. Welcome to the ASGN Incorporated Third Quarter 2023 Earnings Call. (Operator Instructions) Please note, this conference is being recorded.

各位好。歡迎參加 ASGN Incorporated 2023 年第三季財報電話會議。（接線員指示）請注意，本次會議將被錄音。

I will now turn the conference over to your host, Kimberly Esterkin, Vice President of Investor Relations. You may begin.

我現在將會議交給主持人——投資人關係副總裁 Kimberly Esterkin。您可以開始了。

Good afternoon, and thank you for joining us today for ASGN's Third Quarter 2023 Conference Call. With me are Ted Hanson, Chief Executive Officer; Rand Blazer, President; and Marie Perry, Chief Financial Officer.

各位下午好，感謝今天加入 ASGN 2023 年第三季電話會議。與我一同出席的有：執行長 Ted Hanson；總裁 Rand Blazer；以及財務長 Marie Perry。

Before we get started, I would like to remind everyone that our commentary contains forward-looking statements. Although we believe these statements are reasonable, they are subject to risks and uncertainties, and as such, our actual results could differ materially from those statements. Certain of these risks and uncertainties are described in today's press release and in our SEC filings. We do not assume any obligation to update these statements made on this call. For your convenience, our prepared remarks and supplemental materials can be found in the Investor Relations' section of our website at investors.asgn.com.

在開始之前，我想提醒各位，我們的評論包含前瞻性陳述。雖然我們相信這些陳述是合理的，但其仍受風險與不確定性影響，因此我們的實際結果可能與這些陳述存在重大差異。部分風險與不確定性已於今日新聞稿及我們向 SEC 提交的文件中說明。我們不承擔更新本次電話會議中所作陳述的任何義務。為方便各位，我們的準備講稿與補充資料可於 investors.asgn.com 網站的投資人關係（Investor Relations）專區查閱。

Please also note that on this call, we will be referencing certain non-GAAP measures, such as adjusted EBITDA, adjusted net income and free cash flow. These non-GAAP measures are intended to supplement the comparable GAAP measures. Reconciliations between GAAP and non-GAAP measures are included in today's press release.

另請注意，在本次電話會議中，我們將引用若干非 GAAP 指標，例如調整後 EBITDA、調整後淨利以及自由現金流。這些非 GAAP 指標旨在補充可比較的 GAAP 指標。GAAP 與非 GAAP 指標之間的調節表已包含於今日新聞稿中。

I will now turn the call over to Ted Hanson, Chief Executive Officer.

我現在將電話會議交給執行長 Ted Hanson。

Thank you, Kim, and thank you for joining ASGN's Third Quarter 2023 Earnings Call. ASGN's performance for the third quarter of 2023 was in line with our expectations with result slightly ahead of or within our guidance ranges. Third quarter 2023 revenues of $1.12 billion were above the midpoint of our guidance with IT consulting revenues reaching approximately 55% of the total ahead of our 2024 goals. Adjusted EBITDA margin was 12.3% for the third quarter, above the top end of our guidance range. We continue to see opportunities for margin expansion as our consulting revenues grow.

謝謝 Kim，也感謝各位參加 ASGN 2023 年第三季財報電話會議。ASGN 在 2023 年第三季的表現符合我們的預期，結果略優於或落在我們的指引區間內。2023 年第三季營收為 11.2 億美元，高於我們指引的中位數，其中 IT 顧問服務營收約占總營收的 55%，已提前達成我們 2024 年的目標。第三季調整後 EBITDA 利潤率為 12.3%，高於我們指引區間的上緣。隨著顧問服務營收成長，我們持續看到利潤率擴張的機會。

With that as a background on our consolidated results, I'd like to turn to our industry performance. As we review our performance, 3 key things will be consistent throughout the discussion. First, while the market for IT spend remains difficult, these headwinds will reverse and ASGN's business is better positioned than it's ever been to capture in-demand IT opportunities.

在此作為我們合併業績的背景之後，我想轉向談談我們的產業表現。在回顧表現時，整段討論將貫穿 3 個重點。第一，雖然 IT 支出市場仍然艱難，但這些逆風終將反轉，而 ASGN 的業務比以往任何時候都更具優勢，可把握市場需求旺盛的 IT 機會。

Second, the strength of our business lies in our large domestic enterprise account base. Our diversified client base across 6 critical industry verticals provide stability throughout market cycles. Third, our business continues to evolve toward IT consulting with more than half of our consolidated revenues now in the higher end, higher value project and solution capabilities. This growth in consulting revenues along with the variable nature of our cost structure supports our margins. I'll speak more on each of these topics as we review our quarterly performance, but let's begin by discussing the 5 industry verticals that comprise our Commercial segment.

第二，我們業務的強項在於龐大的美國本土大型企業客戶基礎。我們在 6 個關鍵產業垂直領域的多元化客戶組合，能在不同市場循環中提供穩定性。第三，我們的業務持續朝 IT 顧問服務演進，目前合併營收中已有超過一半來自更高端、更高價值的專案與解決方案能力。顧問服務營收的成長，加上我們成本結構的可變性，有助於支撐利潤率。我會在回顧季度表現時進一步說明這些主題，但我們先從構成商業（Commercial）部門的 5 個產業垂直領域開始。

Our Commercial segment predominantly services large enterprise and Fortune 1000 companies. Commercial segment revenues for the quarter declined by low teens on a difficult year-over-year comparison. Revenues for the segment benefited from growth in our consulting business, offset by double-digit declines in the more discretionary areas of our assignment business. For the quarter, commercial consulting revenues increased 2.1% year-over-year. Commercial consulting bookings of $291 million translated to a book-to-bill of 1.1x for the quarter and 1.2x on a trailing 12-month basis.

我們的商業部門主要服務大型企業與《財富》1000 大公司。本季商業部門營收在艱難的年對年比較下下滑至低十位數百分比。該部門營收受惠於顧問服務業務成長，但被派遣（assignment）業務中較具可選性的領域出現雙位數下滑所抵銷。本季商業顧問服務營收年增 2.1%。商業顧問服務接單額為 2.91 億美元，換算本季接單出貨比（book-to-bill）為 1.1 倍，過去 12 個月（TTM）為 1.2 倍。

Of the consulting work won during the quarter, bookings were again weighted towards renewals on existing projects with a large portion of bookings coming in at the end of the third quarter, an indication that our clients remain cautious in their spend. Sales cycles are slow and project duration continue to be elongated, but our retention rates on existing deals remain strong as our clients continue to recognize the high value of and need for ASGN services. We are seeing anything with an immediate return on investment specifically projects aimed at cost containment and those generating operational efficiencies, getting the green light from clients. I'll speak more on the work won during the quarter shortly.

本季贏得的顧問服務工作中，接單再次偏向既有專案的續約，且相當大一部分接單集中在第三季末，顯示客戶在支出上仍保持謹慎。銷售週期偏慢、專案期間持續拉長，但我們在既有交易上的留存率仍然強勁，因為客戶持續認可並需要 ASGN 服務的高價值。我們看到凡是能立即帶來投資報酬的項目——特別是以成本控制與提升營運效率為目標的專案——更容易獲得客戶核准。我稍後會進一步說明本季贏得的工作。

Turning to our vertical performance. Our Consumer & Industrial and healthcare verticals saw low single-digit revenue declines year-over-year. Within Consumer & Industrial, consumer staples and utilities were bright spots, each experience seeing a low single-digit growth as compared to the third quarter of 2022. In the healthcare vertical, provider accounts maintained their strength and revenues were up double digits year-over-year. Technology, Media and Telecommunications or TMT, Business and Government services and Financial Services, our 3 remaining commercial industry verticals, all saw continued revenue declines year-over-year. Though each of these verticals displayed some resiliency in certain areas on a sequential basis. Within TMT, for example, media and entertainment account revenues remain relatively consistent with the second quarter of 2023 with the rate of decline slowing. Within our financials vertical, big bank revenues were relatively flat sequentially with small sequential revenue growth in diversified financials.

接著談各垂直領域表現。我們的消費與工業（Consumer & Industrial）以及醫療保健（healthcare）垂直領域，年對年營收皆呈現低個位數下滑。在消費與工業領域中，民生必需品（consumer staples）與公用事業（utilities）是亮點，兩者相較 2022 年第三季均呈現低個位數成長。在醫療保健領域，醫療服務提供者（provider）客戶維持強勢，營收年增達雙位數。科技、媒體與電信（Technology, Media and Telecommunications，TMT）、商業與政府服務（Business and Government services）以及金融服務（Financial Services）——我們其餘 3 個商業產業垂直領域——年對年營收皆持續下滑。不過，這些垂直領域在某些面向的季對季表現仍展現韌性。以 TMT 為例，媒體與娛樂客戶營收相較 2023 年第二季大致持平，下降幅度放緩。在金融垂直領域中，大型銀行營收季對季相對持平，而多元金融（diversified financials）則出現小幅季對季成長。

Even in these more challenging macroeconomic conditions, as previously noted, our commercial bookings remain solid. We continue to make progress on the AI front across the Commercial segment, with generative AI coming for many of the new opportunities in our pipeline followed closely by work in machine learning. The vast majority of the generative AI projects for clients are exploratory at this time, we expect larger AI programs to follow once use cases that demonstrate value creation have been identified for our clients.

即便在更具挑戰的總體經濟環境下，如先前所述，我們的商業接單仍然穩健。我們在商業部門的 AI 方面持續取得進展，生成式 AI 已成為我們管線中許多新機會的來源，緊隨其後的是機器學習相關工作。目前客戶的生成式 AI 專案絕大多數仍處於探索階段；一旦為客戶找出能展現價值創造的使用情境，我們預期後續將出現更大型的 AI 計畫。

At the same time, this AI exploration work is taking place, we're seeing strong demand for data engineering and data governance in support of AI use cases. These infrastructure needs are being driven by the desire to ensure that data is complete, accurate and timely for training, testing and deploying AI models in the future. One example of work is the consulting project we won during the third quarter with a leading North American tech supply companies. Our team was brought on to build out an end-to-end freight management system for our clients, including the full cloud data platform for managing analytics and future AI and automation capability. We are responsible for ensuring the architecture, configuration, reporting and analytics are properly set up in the new freight management tool.

同時，在進行 AI 探索工作的當下，我們也看到為支援 AI 使用情境而帶動的資料工程與資料治理需求強勁。這些基礎建設需求源自於希望確保資料完整、正確且即時，以便未來訓練、測試並部署 AI 模型。其中一個例子是我們在第三季贏得的一項顧問專案，客戶為北美領先的科技供應公司。我們的團隊受聘為客戶建置端到端的貨運管理系統，包括用於管理分析以及未來 AI 與自動化能力的完整雲端資料平台。我們負責確保新貨運管理工具中的架構、設定、報表與分析均正確建置。

At the same time, we must ensure that the data is extracted correctly from the old tool and ingested into the new tool. We're using technology solutions such as Snowflake, Databricks and Google Cloud as part of this end-to-end architecture to ensure the best outcome for our clients.

同時，我們也必須確保能從舊工具正確擷取資料，並將其匯入新工具。我們在此端到端架構中採用 Snowflake、Databricks 與 Google Cloud 等技術解決方案，以確保為客戶帶來最佳成果。

We also continue to excel in projects involving engineering robotics and machine learning capabilities. In another consulting project won during the third quarter, we were hired to provide services to a leader in e-grocery technology. Under this contract, we're helping to drive the deployment of our clients' robotic grocery fulfillment systems, which are used to stock the warehouses of a major retailer nationwide. We are providing end-to-end provisioning, installation, quality assessment and support for each warehouse deploying the new e-grocery technology.

我們在涉及工程機器人與機器學習能力的專案上也持續表現出色。在第三季贏得的另一項顧問專案中，我們受聘為一家電子雜貨（e-grocery）技術領導者提供服務。依據該合約，我們協助推動客戶的機器人雜貨履約系統部署，該系統用於為全國一家主要零售商的倉庫進行補貨。我們為每一座部署新 e-grocery 技術的倉庫提供端到端的資源配置（provisioning）、安裝、品質評估與支援。

Let's now turn to our Federal Government segment, our sixth industry vertical, which provides mission-critical solutions to the Department of Defense, the intelligence community and fed civilian agencies. Federal segment revenues for the quarter were up 12.3% year-over-year on an as-reported basis and up 4% organically. Contract backlog was roughly $3.3 billion at the end of the third quarter or a healthy coverage ratio of 2.6x the segment's trailing 12-month revenue. New awards were approximately $501.2 million, which translates to a book-to-bill of 1.5x for the quarter and 0.9x on a trailing 12-month basis.

接著談我們的聯邦政府（Federal Government）部門，也就是第六個產業垂直領域，為國防部、情報社群以及聯邦民事機構提供關鍵任務解決方案。本季聯邦部門營收按申報口徑（as-reported）年增 12.3%，有機成長（organically）年增 4%。第三季末合約在手訂單（contract backlog）約為 33 億美元，覆蓋比率健康，約為該部門過去 12 個月營收的 2.6 倍。新得標金額約為 5.012 億美元，換算本季接單出貨比為 1.5 倍，過去 12 個月為 0.9 倍。

As we continue to secure work during the third quarter, we recognized the potential for some disruption in the procurement process should the government shutdown occur following the end of Q3. Our government team proactively engaged in discussions with clients for several weeks leading up to October 1 and reconfirmed that the vast majority of our work is mission-critical. We believe that 10% or less of our Federal Government work to be impacted in the case of an extended government shutdown.

在第三季持續取得新工作之際，我們也意識到，若在第三季結束後政府發生停擺，採購流程可能出現一定程度的干擾。我們的政府團隊在 10 月 1 日之前的數週即主動與客戶展開討論，並再次確認我們絕大多數工作屬於關鍵任務。我們認為，若政府停擺時間延長，受影響的聯邦政府業務占比將為 10% 或更低。

We're keeping track of budgetary developments. In the meantime, we remain heads down on providing leading IT solutions to our government client base. Speaking of supporting our clients in the third quarter, we won a combination of new and recompete contracts. Amongst the new work secured, we won 2 new cybersecurity contracts with the U.S. House of Representatives and the Census Bureau. In addition, we've secured a 5-year data and AI contract to support the National Geospatial Intelligence Agency, the Chief Digital Artificial Intelligence Office or CDAO and the Army Research Laboratory. We also won a smaller contract from the CDAO to help establish a global AI innovation lab that will support academic research in artificial intelligence worldwide.

我們正持續追蹤預算方面的最新進展。與此同時，我們仍全力以赴，為政府客戶群提供領先的 IT 解決方案。談到第三季對客戶的支援，我們贏得了新案與續標案的組合。在新取得的工作中，我們拿下了 2 份新的資安合約，客戶分別為美國眾議院與人口普查局。此外，我們也取得一份為期 5 年的資料與 AI 合約，以支援國家地理空間情報局（National Geospatial Intelligence Agency）、首席數位人工智慧辦公室（Chief Digital Artificial Intelligence Office，CDAO）以及陸軍研究實驗室。我們也從 CDAO 贏得一份較小的合約，協助建立全球 AI 創新實驗室，以支援全球範圍內的人工智慧學術研究。

Similar to the Commercial segment, much of our work in generative AI in the government space remains exploratory at present. But with excellent qualifications in traditional forms of artificial intelligence, our federal and civilian customers continue to look to us to identify use cases that will increase their operational efficiency. In fact, on several DoD AI research and development programs, we are integrating generative AI and large language models into current solutions.

與商業部門類似，我們在政府領域的生成式 AI 工作目前多仍處於探索階段。但憑藉我們在傳統人工智慧形式方面的優異資歷，我們的聯邦與民用客戶仍持續倚重我們，協助辨識可提升其營運效率的使用情境。事實上，在多個國防部（DoD）AI 研發計畫中，我們正將生成式 AI 與大型語言模型整合至現有解決方案中。

With regards to project extensions, we won work with the U.S. Postal Service supporting several key areas, including advanced data management and cybersecurity and continue to support the Department of Veteran Affairs, while adding new work and strategic planning, cloud advisory services and AI technology implementation. The breadth of work just described is evidence of the countercyclical balance the government industry vertical provides to our overall account portfolio.

就專案延展而言，我們贏得了與美國郵政署（U.S. Postal Service）的工作，支援多個關鍵領域，包括先進資料管理與資安，並持續支援退伍軍人事務部（Department of Veteran Affairs），同時新增工作內容與策略規劃、雲端顧問服務以及 AI 技術導入。上述工作的廣度，證明政府產業垂直領域為我們整體客戶組合所提供的逆景氣循環平衡效果。

With that, I'll turn the call over to Marie to discuss the third quarter results and our fourth quarter 2023 guidance.

接下來，我把電話會議交給 Marie，請她說明第三季業績以及我們對 2023 年第四季的指引。

Thanks, Ted. It's great to speak with everyone this afternoon. As Ted noted, our results for the quarter were in line with or exceeded our expectations. The third quarter revenue of $1.12 billion were down 6.8% year-over-year. Revenues for the Commercial segment were $782.4 million, down 13.1% compared to the prior year quarter. Revenues from commercial consulting the largest of our high-margin revenue stream totaled $274.2 million, up 2.1% year-over-year on a tough comparison of 43.2% growth in the third quarter of 2022.

謝謝你，Ted。很高興今天下午能與各位交流。如 Ted 所提，我們本季的結果符合或優於我們的預期。第三季營收為 11.2 億美元，年減 6.8%。商業部門營收為 7.824 億美元，較去年同期下降 13.1%。商業顧問收入（為我們高毛利收入來源中最大的一項）合計 2.742 億美元，年增 2.1%，是在 2022 年第三季成長 43.2% 的高基期下所達成。

Growth in commercial consulting revenue was offset by 19.5% year-over-year decline in assignment revenues, reflecting the continued softness in more discretionary and cyclical parts of our business. On a same Billable Day basis, adjusting for 1.5 fewer Billable Days in Q3 of 2023 compared to the prior year quarter, assignment revenues declined 17.6%. Revenues from our Federal Government segment were $334.4 million, up 12.3% year-over-year, including a $24.6 million contribution from Iron Vine.

商業顧問收入的成長，被派遣（assignment）收入年減 19.5% 所抵銷，反映我們業務中較具可選擇性與景氣循環性的部分仍持續疲弱。以相同可計費天數（Billable Day）基礎計算，並就 2023 年第三季較去年同期少 1.5 個可計費天數進行調整後，派遣收入下降 17.6%。聯邦政府部門營收為 3.344 億美元，年增 12.3%，其中包含 Iron Vine 貢獻的 2,460 萬美元。

The growth in our Federal Governance segment, our sixth vertical speaks directly to the benefits of maintaining a diverse client base across industries.

我們聯邦政府部門（亦即我們的第六個垂直領域）的成長，直接體現了在跨產業維持多元客戶基礎所帶來的效益。

Turning to margins. On a consolidated basis, gross margin was 28.9%, down 110 basis points over the third quarter of last year and flat sequentially. The year-over-year compression in gross margin was mainly related to business mix, including a lower mix of certain high-margin revenues within our Commercial segment and a higher mix of revenues from our Federal Government segment, which carry a lower gross margin than Commercial segment revenues.

接著談毛利率。合併基礎下，毛利率為 28.9%，較去年第三季下降 110 個基點，與前一季持平。毛利率年對年下滑主要與業務組合有關，包括商業部門中某些高毛利收入占比降低，以及聯邦政府部門收入占比提高；而聯邦政府部門的毛利率低於商業部門。

Gross margin for the Commercial segment was 32.5%, down 60 basis points year-over-year, primarily due to the lower mix of certain high-margin assignment revenue stream, mainly creative digital marketing and permanent placement revenues, which was partially offset by a higher mix of high-margin IT consulting revenues with a year-over-year expansion in gross margin. Gross margin for the Federal Government segment was 20.4% and down 10 basis points year-over-year.

商業部門毛利率為 32.5%，年減 60 個基點，主要因某些高毛利派遣收入來源占比降低，主要是創意數位行銷與永久派遣（permanent placement）收入；部分被高毛利 IT 顧問收入占比提高所抵銷，且該項收入的毛利率年對年擴張。聯邦政府部門毛利率為 20.4%，年減 10 個基點。

SG&A expense for the third quarter were $206 million or 18.4% of revenues as compared to $232.6 million or 19.4% of revenue in the prior year period. SG&A expenses included $1.1 million in acquisition, integration and strategic planning expenses; and a $2.7 million tentative legal settlements, both of which were not included in our guidance estimates. As expected, interest expense increased year-over-year related to rising interest rates and our recent refinancing. At the end of August, we completed a successful transaction that upsized and extended the maturity of our revolving credit facility and Term Loan B. Our revolving credit facility is now $500 million with a 5-year maturity extending to 2028, our Term Loan B is also $500 million and extends 7 years maturing in 2030.

第三季 SG&A 費用為 2.06 億美元，占營收 18.4%；相較去年同期為 2.326 億美元，占營收 19.4%。SG&A 費用包含 110 萬美元的併購、整合與策略規劃費用，以及 270 萬美元的暫定法律和解金，兩者皆未納入我們的指引估計。如預期，利息費用因利率上升及近期再融資而年對年增加。8 月底，我們成功完成一筆交易，擴大並延長了循環信用額度與 B 期定期貸款（Term Loan B）的到期日。我們的循環信用額度目前為 5 億美元，期限 5 年，延至 2028 年到期；B 期定期貸款亦為 5 億美元，期限延長至 7 年，於 2030 年到期。

Post transactions, our net leverage remains low at 2x adjusted EBITDA. Ted will speak further about this transaction shortly. Income from continuing operations was $59.4 million. Adjusted EBITDA was $137.5 million, and adjusted EBITDA margin was 12.3%. At quarter end, cash and cash equivalents were $145.6 million, and we had full availability under our new $500 million Senior Secured revolver. Free cash flow for the quarter was $137.7 million, an increase of 73.2% year-over-year. We deployed $91.3 million in cash on the repurchase of 1.1 million shares during the third quarter at an average price of $79.63 per share. We have roughly $349.1 million remaining under our share repurchase authorization.

交易完成後，我們的淨槓桿仍維持在 2 倍調整後 EBITDA 的低水準。Ted 稍後會進一步說明這筆交易。持續營業業務所得為 5,940 萬美元。調整後 EBITDA 為 1.375 億美元，調整後 EBITDA 利潤率為 12.3%。季末現金及約當現金為 1.456 億美元，且我們在新的 5 億美元優先擔保循環信貸（Senior Secured revolver）下仍有全額可用額度。本季自由現金流為 1.377 億美元，年增 73.2%。第三季我們動用 9,130 萬美元回購 110 萬股，平均每股價格 79.63 美元。我們在股票回購授權下尚餘約 3.491 億美元。

With strong free cash flow generation and full availability under our revolver, we have ample dry powder to make strategic acquisitions once the M&A market improves.

憑藉強勁的自由現金流產生能力，以及循環信貸的全額可用額度，一旦併購市場改善，我們將擁有充足的資金火力進行策略性收購。

Turning to our guidance. Our financial estimates for the fourth quarter of 2023 are set forth in our earnings release and supplemental materials. These estimates are based on current market conditions and do not take into account any possible revenue declines associated with the potential government shutdown in November. Our estimate assumes 60 Billable Days in the fourth quarter, which is the same as the year ago period and 2.5 fewer Billable Days than Q3 of 2023. Guidance also takes into account seasonality, with the fourth quarter traditionally the second lowest quarter after the first quarter.

接著談指引。我們對 2023 年第四季的財務估計已載於新聞稿與補充資料中。這些估計係基於目前市場狀況，且未納入 11 月可能發生政府停擺所帶來的任何潛在營收下滑。我們的估計假設第四季有 60 個可計費天數，與去年同期相同，且較 2023 年第三季少 2.5 個可計費天數。指引亦考量季節性因素，第四季傳統上是僅次於第一季的第二低季度。

We expect macro conditions to remain challenging in the fourth quarter. In our Commercial segment, we anticipate revenues to remain soft across both assignments and consulting. These declines are expected to be partially offset by growth in our Federal Government segment. We are expecting gross margins will decline year-over-year due to business mix similar to the more recent trends including a greater mix of federal government work and continued softness in our more cyclical and discretionary Commercial businesses.

我們預期第四季總體環境仍將充滿挑戰。在商業部門方面，我們預期派遣與顧問兩項收入都將維持疲弱。這些下滑預期將部分由聯邦政府部門的成長所抵銷。我們預期毛利率將年對年下降，原因在於業務組合與近期趨勢相似，包括聯邦政府工作占比提高，以及我們較具景氣循環性與可選擇性的商業業務持續疲弱。

This should be partially offset by an improvement in our year-over-year cash SG&A expense margin. With this as background, for the fourth quarter, we are estimating revenues of $1.04 billion to $1.06 billion. We are estimating net income of $46.2 million to $49.1 million. Adjusted EBITDA of $115.5 million to $119.5 million and adjusted EBITDA margin of 11.1% to 11.3%.

上述影響應可部分由現金 SG&A 費用率年對年改善所抵銷。在此背景下，我們對第四季的估計為：營收 10.4 億至 10.6 億美元；淨利 4,620 萬至 4,910 萬美元；調整後 EBITDA 1.155 億至 1.195 億美元；調整後 EBITDA 利潤率 11.1% 至 11.3%。

Thank you. I'll now turn the call back over to Ted for some closing remarks.

謝謝。接下來我把電話會議交回給 Ted，請他做一些結語。

Thanks, Marie. ASGN's business is very well positioned with IT market demand and the overall economy improves. Consistent with our peer set and our clients, we remain cautious about the near-term market demand given the uncertain macroeconomic condition. Nevertheless, with great qualifications that are across sought after IT solutions and skill sets, ASGN is ready to leverage growth in IT spend in the future.

謝謝你，Marie。隨著 IT 市場需求與整體經濟改善，ASGN 的業務處於非常有利的位置。與同業及客戶一致，我們在不確定的總體經濟情勢下，對短期市場需求仍保持審慎。儘管如此，憑藉我們在各項備受需求的 IT 解決方案與技能組合上的優異資歷，ASGN 已準備好在未來把握 IT 支出成長所帶來的機會。

As we proactively position our company for the future, as Marie noted, in the third quarter, we successfully completed a transaction to upsize and extend the maturities of our revolving credit facility and Term Loan B. This transaction increased our financial flexibility and provided us with significant dry powder for acquisitions as the M&A market strengthen.

在我們積極為公司未來布局之際，如 Marie 所提，我們在第三季成功完成一筆交易，擴大並延長循環信用額度與 B 期定期貸款的到期日。這筆交易提升了我們的財務彈性，並在併購市場轉強時，為收購提供了可觀的資金火力。

We continue to believe M&A is the best use of and highest return on our capital. Both the revolver and Term Loan B were oversubscribed, which we can attribute to the strength of our underlying business. The success of this refinancing was also due to the efforts of our treasury team, led by Jim Brill. Jim has been an integral part of the ASGN family for the past 16 years, but we knew the day would come when Jim would retire. Jim, it has been a pleasure to work alongside you all these years. And on behalf of our entire company, I want to thank you for your exceptional leadership and dedication to ASGN. You will be missed, and we wish you the very best in your well-deserved retirement.

我們仍相信，併購是我們資本最佳的運用方式，也是最高報酬的選擇。循環信貸與 B 期定期貸款皆出現超額認購，我們可將此歸因於我們基本業務的強勁。此次再融資的成功，也有賴於由 Jim Brill 領導的財務資金（treasury）團隊的努力。Jim 在過去 16 年一直是 ASGN 大家庭不可或缺的一員，但我們也知道 Jim 終有一天會退休。Jim，這些年能與你並肩合作是我的榮幸。我也代表全公司，感謝你對 ASGN 卓越的領導與投入。你將令人懷念，並祝福你在實至名歸的退休生活中一切順心。

Transitioning into Jim's role as Treasurer, we welcome Chris Donnini, who has served a VP of Finance and Treasury role at ASGN since July. Chris has been shadowing Jim since day 1. With an extensive background in finance and treasury for publicly traded companies, Chris brings a wealth of experience to ASGN. We're excited to have Chris on board and hope that many of you have the opportunity to meet him in the near future.

隨著我們交接至 Jim 的財務主管（Treasurer）職務，我們歡迎 Chris Donnini 加入；Chris 自 7 月起即在 ASGN 擔任財務與資金管理副總裁。Chris 從第一天起就一直跟隨 Jim 學習。憑藉其在上市公司財務與資金管理方面的深厚背景，Chris 為 ASGN 帶來豐富的經驗。我們很高興 Chris 加入，也希望各位在不久的將來都有機會與他見面。

That concludes our prepared remarks. I'd like to thank our entire ASGN team for your continued efforts this past quarter. Our ability to remain in the fast current of where IT spend is today and in the future is the result of your dedication and unwavering commitment to our clients. Thank you again for joining our third quarter call.

以上為我們事先準備的發言內容。我要感謝整個 ASGN 團隊在本季持續付出的努力。我們能夠緊貼當前以及未來 IT 支出的快速趨勢，正是各位對客戶的投入與堅定承諾所帶來的成果。再次感謝各位參加我們的第三季電話會議。

Operator, please open the call to questions.

接線員，請開放提問。

(Operator Instructions) Our first question comes from the line of Tobey Sommer with Truist Securities.

（接線員指示）我們的第一個問題來自 Truist Securities 的 Tobey Sommer。

I was wondering if you could give us a little bit more color on what you're seeing in the commercial consulting arena in terms of the elongation of decision-making and maybe the size, the projects? Are they are diminishing outright? Or are customers piecemealing them out in modules or phases as opposed to signing up for the whole end-to-end period for you?

我想請問，能否再多分享一些你們在商業顧問服務領域所觀察到的情況，特別是決策時間拉長，以及專案規模、專案本身的狀況？這些專案是否正在明顯縮小？或者客戶是否把專案拆成模組或階段來做，而不是一次簽下你們端到端、涵蓋整個期間的完整專案？

Yes. So thanks for the question, Tobey. I'll let Rand kind of jump in here, too. But I'll tell you, I think in general, what we're seeing is their solid bookings, a little bit more renewals than new work but what I would call very solid bookings for this quarter, it was $291 million. We were at a 1.1 book-to-bill, which Q3 is always seasonably a little lighter. So I think we were generally pleased with that. We're definitely seeing clients elongate those that reduces their spend, if you will, and our revenue. It's not a bill rate or a margin issue. It's mostly embedded in that. And Rand, size of project is generally similar, right?

好的，謝謝你的問題，Tobey。我也請 Rand 一起補充。不過我先說，整體來看，我們看到的是穩健的接單（bookings），續約比新案稍多一些，但我會形容本季的接單非常扎實，金額是 2.91 億美元。我們的接單出帳比（book-to-bill）為 1.1，而第三季通常季節性會稍微淡一些，所以我們整體上對此感到滿意。我們確實看到客戶拉長時程，這會降低他們的支出，進而影響我們的營收。這不是計費費率或毛利率的問題，主要是反映在專案時程裡。Rand，專案規模大致上差不多，對吧？

Yes. Except for the AI work, which you noted, Ted, tends to be smaller, but the normal flow of our consulting work is the larger now 7-figure projects that have a 9- to 12-month duration. And Tobey, to your question of, is the client piecing it out, if you will, to us? I think it's more as on the go scenario. In other words, as projects mature, they come to different milestones. I think the clients, generally, and some of this is seasonal, is not in a rush to finish, if you will.

是的。除了你提到的 AI 相關工作，Ted，那類通常規模較小；但我們一般顧問服務的正常案源，現在多是 7 位數美元的大型專案，期間約 9 到 12 個月。Tobey，針對你問的客戶是否把專案拆開給我們做，我認為比較像是「邊走邊看」的情境。也就是說，隨著專案推進到不同里程碑，我覺得客戶整體而言（其中也有一些季節性因素）並不急著把它做完。

I'm not suggesting that they don't think it's a priority. But it's just being cautious, which they've been for some time now in the last quarter or two. So it's not so much the way it's contracted. It's more the way it's executed. Did that answer your question?

我不是說他們不認為這是優先事項；只是他們比較謹慎，而這種謹慎在過去一兩季就已經存在了。所以與其說是合約怎麼簽，倒不如說是執行方式的問題。這樣有回答到你的問題嗎？

Sure. That provides helpful color. And then as a follow-up on the same theme, within that rate of bookings, and I understand most of it is renewals, do you think you're holding serve, gaining share? How do you think you're doing relative to the market in the areas that you play?

有的，這些補充很有幫助。接著同一個主題追問一下：在這樣的接單速度之下，而且我理解其中大多是續約，你們覺得自己是在守住既有市占、還是在擴大市占？就你們所參與的市場領域而言，你們相對於市場的表現如何？

Rand?

Rand？

Ted, I'll take a first shot. And we'll wait for our peer group to report Tobey, over the next days and weeks. But I mean, I feel like we're holding court if not expanding just a bit. Most of the work that we're seeing, by the way, is a lot in that data that Ted mentioned in the notes, the data area.

Ted，我先回答第一部分。Tobey，我們會等同業在接下來幾天到幾週陸續公布。不過我的感覺是，我們至少守住了局面，甚至可能小幅擴張。順帶一提，我們目前看到的工作很多都集中在 Ted 在說明裡提到的資料（data）領域。

Data aggregation, data consolidation, data cleansing, data mapping, these are fundamental steps you take in any kind of systems development, if you will. And I think a lot of clients are recognizing that this data work is -- takes time, has to be pulled together, have to be meticulous. And guess what? This all sets the stage for AI technology when it comes in.

資料彙整、資料整併、資料清理、資料對應（mapping）——這些都是你在任何系統開發中會做的基礎步驟。我認為很多客戶正在意識到，這些資料工作需要時間，必須整合起來，而且要非常細緻。你猜怎麼著？這些都在為 AI 技術導入鋪路。

And Tobey, one other thing we watch is the technology that supports data mapping and data cleansing, they are beginning to pop up on the horizon, new pieces of technology to support that effort. But for the most part, it's still methodology and labor-intensive. And its prep work -- important prep work for AI implementation to come.

另外 Tobey，我們也在觀察支援資料對應與資料清理的技術；一些新的技術工具開始出現在視野中，用來支援這些工作。但大多數情況下，仍然以方法論與大量人工作業為主。而這些前置作業——是 AI 導入前非常重要的準備工作。

If I could ask a question about M&A. I think you said in your prepared remarks when M&A, when sort of markets reopen, resume, revive, something like that. Did -- what do you mean by that? Because certainly, it seems based on your financing, you have the capital and appetite. Is it a question of multiples or fewer assets available out in the market? From many perspectives one might think this would be a good time for you to lean in a bit.

我想問一個關於併購（M&A）的问题。我記得你在事先準備的發言中提到，等到併購市場重新開放、恢復、回溫之類的。你所說的是什麼意思？因為從你們的融資情況來看，你們顯然有資金與意願。這是估值倍數的問題，還是市場上可供收購的標的變少？從很多角度看，現在似乎是你們可以更積極出手的好時機。

Well, I would agree with that. I would say, Tobey, we still see that high-quality assets are not stepping into the market because they still have it in their own mind, maybe reconcile to solve the valuation question. So you -- while we see things flowing through the pipeline and we're prosecuting all of it. It's lesser quality, I would say, more and lesser quality assets than we would typically see. So I think it's more that than anything else.

我同意你的看法。我會說，Tobey，我們仍然看到高品質資產沒有進入市場，因為他們心裡可能還在消化、或需要解決估值的問題。所以——雖然我們看到案源在管線中流動，我們也在推進所有機會——但我會說，相較於我們通常看到的情況，目前出現的標的品質偏低，或是偏低品質的標的比例更高。我想主要是這個原因。

For a company that has great IT solution capabilities in some high-demand areas that we want to be in. They're performing, maybe not as good as they were, but they're performing well, and I think they can afford to wait here. I think it's mostly around that.

對於那些在我們想布局的高需求領域、具備很強 IT 解決方案能力的公司而言，他們的表現也許不如以前，但仍然表現不錯，我認為他們有本錢再等等。我想大多就是這個因素。

That makes perfect sense. Last question for me. Could I get you to maybe give us a history lesson in how the government business performed and what the impacts were to top line, contract awards and book-to-bill as near as you could isolate those in the last shutdown in 2018 that straddled into '19 because that may be informative as we perhaps experience some sort of volatility in government staying open over the next several months?

這非常合理。我最後一個問題：能否請你們回顧一下政府業務在過去的表現，以及在 2018 年那次政府關門、並延續到 2019 年的事件中，對營收（top line）、合約得標（contract awards）以及接單出帳比（book-to-bill）造成了哪些影響？如果你們能在可切分的範圍內把這些影響單獨拉出來說明，可能會很有參考價值，因為接下來幾個月政府是否能持續運作，或許會出現某種波動。

Yes. Well, Tobey, that's pretty far back. So I couldn't clearly give you an answer on that, but let us follow up with you offline on that, if that's okay.

好的。Tobey，那已經是很久以前的事了，所以我沒辦法很清楚地當場給你答案。不過如果可以的話，我們會在會後私下再跟你補充。

And our next question comes from the line of Maggie Nolan with William Blair.

下一個問題來自 William Blair 的 Maggie Nolan。

My first one is on the commercial consulting side of things. Can you share your initial impressions about the clients' budgeting processes for 2024? And what that might mean for spending potential next year?

我的第一個問題是關於商業顧問服務。你們能否分享一下對客戶 2024 年預算編列流程的初步觀察？以及這對明年潛在支出可能意味著什麼？

Well, we're in the middle of that right now. I will tell you on a macro basis, not client by client, but I mean if you kind of follow Gartner, they're lowering IT spending growth here in this year, they're kind of down to 3% or 4% now, and they're expecting a higher number next year, right? So I think that's an overall market comment. Rand, are we really kind of into that on the client side here enough to make a comment?

我們現在正處於那個過程中。我先從總體層面來說，不逐一談客戶：如果你有關注 Gartner，他們正在下修今年 IT 支出成長，現在大概降到 3% 或 4%，而他們預期明年會是更高的數字，對吧？所以我認為這是整體市場的評論。Rand，就客戶端而言，我們目前掌握得夠多，足以做出評論嗎？

Well, I would say there's two levels of client here. The technical client that runs the projects and has to get things accomplished and the executive team that has to make a decision relative to their financials and their own outlook for the future. I can tell you the technical client level, Maggie, let's talk about it. Let's get the next stage going. As I just mentioned, a lot of the work is in what I call the prep phase for AI before use cases get layered on.

我會說客戶大致分兩個層級：一個是負責推動專案、必須把事情做成的技術端客戶；另一個是必須基於財務狀況與對未來展望來做決策的高階主管團隊。我可以告訴你，在技術端層級，Maggie，我們確實在討論：來吧，進入下一階段。如我剛才提到的，很多工作都在我所說的 AI 前置準備階段，等到後續再把使用情境（use cases）疊加上去。

So there is a lot of discussion at the technical level. I think the executive level, I can't speak to that, but I would sense if I were an executive of some of these businesses, if I'm a provider, it's full steam ahead, if I'm a big bank, earnings are looking up. Maybe I'm thinking positively, if I'm technology, the ad money and the results we're seeing now that are coming out in the market are kind of giving us an indicator that earnings are moving up.

所以在技術層面有很多討論。至於高階主管層面，我不便代為發言，但如果我是其中一些企業的主管，我會這樣感受：如果我是服務提供者，那就是全速前進；如果我是大型銀行，獲利看起來在改善，可能會更偏正向；如果我是科技公司，市場上看到的廣告收入與目前公布的結果，某種程度上也在提示獲利正在上升。

So we -- our thesis, as you know, has always been that IT spend is a function of earnings to the company. So I think executives are watching what happens with, I'm sure, the continuing resolution with what's going on in the house. There's obviously going to be money spent on aid for -- in the foreign world. And I mean, I just think it's too early quite to tell, but we're optimistic, I would say.

所以——如你所知，我們的核心論點一直是：IT 支出取決於企業的獲利表現。我想高階主管也在觀察接下來會發生什麼，例如眾議院那邊持續決議案（continuing resolution）的進展。顯然也會有資金用於對外援助——在國際方面。我是說，我覺得現在下定論還太早，但我們仍然保持樂觀。

The bookings give us an indicator, Maggie, a little bit, right? I mean, we've had pretty solid bookings. And even as Ted said, the Q3 bookings were quite good. Usually, it's our lowest commercial quarter. The government side also had great bookings in the third quarter, so.

訂單量多少能給我們一些指標，Maggie，對吧？我的意思是，我們的訂單一直相當穩健。甚至如 Ted 所說，第三季的訂單表現相當不錯。通常那是我們商業端最淡的一季。政府端在第三季的訂單也很強，所以。

That's helpful. And then I think it was Ted, in your prepared remarks, you mentioned maybe some opportunities for more margin expansion. Is that anything incremental to some of the opportunities that you've laid out in the past like at your Investor Day? Or was that a comment on expected mix shift over time? Or any comments you would have there over a multiyear time frame would be helpful.

這很有幫助。然後我想是 Ted，在你事先準備的發言裡，你提到也許還有一些進一步的毛利率擴張機會。那是否是相較於你們過去（例如在投資人日）所提出的機會，有任何新增的部分？還是那只是對於隨時間推移、產品/業務組合轉變的評論？如果你能就多年期的時間框架提供一些看法也會很有幫助。

Yes. I think it's best, Maggie, I mean, we still -- we see in our numbers, and we still believe that as a consultative part of our business becomes bigger. It comes at a better gross margin and EBITDA margin, and that's levering up our margin profile. Even here where some of our more cyclical businesses that have higher margins are down, we're still doing a good job if that's the right way to say it, of generating plus 12% EBITDA margin here in the third quarter.

是的。我想最好這麼說，Maggie，我們仍然——我們從數字上看得到，而且我們仍然相信，隨著我們業務中諮詢式（consultative）部分變得更大，它會帶來更好的毛利率與 EBITDA 利潤率，進而拉升我們的整體利潤結構。即便在這裡，我們一些較具循環性的高毛利業務下滑，我們仍然做得不錯——如果這樣說合適的話——在第三季仍能產生超過 12% 的 EBITDA 利潤率。

So I think it's mostly around that. I mean I've said before, our range that we gave in our 3-year plan, which was about 12% to 12.5% is a short-term target. But -- and with most quarters, we play within that range. But given there's nothing that says in the future, it won't continue to grow higher because of the things we laid out in our Investor Day and because of the kind of quarter-to-quarter mix shift that you can see in our consulting business.

所以我認為主要就是圍繞這點。我的意思是，我之前說過，我們在三年計畫中給的區間，大約 12% 到 12.5%，是短期目標。但是——而且在多數季度，我們都在那個區間內運行。不過，未來沒有任何理由說它不會因為我們在投資人日所闡述的事項，以及你在我們諮詢業務中看到的季度間組合變化，而繼續往上成長。

Our next question comes from the line of Mark Marcon with Baird.

下一個問題來自 Baird 的 Mark Marcon。

On the margins, I mean, you've done a really nice job here in terms of protecting the EBITDA margins. Wondering how you're thinking about internal headcount going forward? Over the course of this coming year, how should we think about your priorities with regards to preserving the margin strength relative to building out capabilities that will probably benefit whenever the environment truly improves?

關於利潤率，我的意思是，你們在維持 EBITDA 利潤率方面做得非常好。想請教你們如何看待未來的內部人力編制？在接下來這一年裡，我們應該如何理解你們在維持利潤率強度與擴充能力（當環境真正改善時可能受益）之間的優先順序？

Yes. Well, good question, Mark. I mean that's a great and I believe that we can pace this out. I mean I don't think we have to sabotage margin to way invest ahead of something. Right now, our head counts are coming down, incentives coming down. Those are some of the stabilizers that are part of our business stabilizers and it helps us protect the margin. But as incentives come back, and we need to add headcount, either in solution areas or in certain other areas, I think we'll pace those out. We've done it before. We saw this in '08 and '09. So again, I don't think we're cutting our nose off to spite our face here. I mean this is something we feel pretty good about the balance.

是的。嗯，這是個好問題，Mark。我的意思是，這確實很棒，而且我相信我們可以把節奏掌握好。我不認為我們必須為了提前投資某些事情而犧牲利潤率。現在我們的人數在下降，獎金激勵也在下降。這些都是我們業務中的一些穩定器，有助於我們保護利潤率。但當獎金激勵回來、而我們需要增加人力時——不論是在解決方案領域或其他某些領域——我認為我們會把這些增補節奏化。我們以前做過。2008、2009 年也見過。所以再說一次，我不認為我們是在意氣用事、因小失大。我是說，對於這種平衡，我們感覺相當不錯。

And the attrition that we're seeing is the natural attrition that's built into the business, and we're watching it. There are some areas where we're investing today, frankly. There are other areas where we're letting natural attrition work. And so we're monitoring and wary of all that.

而我們看到的離職率是業務中本來就存在的自然流失，我們正在觀察。有些領域我們坦白說今天仍在投資；也有其他領域我們讓自然流失發揮作用。因此我們在監控並對這些情況保持警覺。

Ted and Mark, If I can add real quickly. You can't talk about headcount without talking about productivity. And quietly, we've been continuing to upgrade, refit some of the technology we use in our areas, in the recruiting area and certainly in our methodologies and the way we go to work with the engagement. So there's room here also in productivity improvement to absorb some of the growth. So we're watching both of those things, okay? And investing in it, in fact.

Ted 和 Mark，如果我可以很快補充一下。談人力編制不能不談生產力。我們一直在默默地持續升級、更新我們在各領域使用的一些技術，包括招募領域，當然也包括我們的方法論以及我們執行專案（engagement）的方式。因此在生產力提升方面也有空間，可以吸收部分成長。我們同時在看這兩件事，好嗎？而且事實上也在投資。

That's great. Do you have any more perspective with regards to -- I know it's early days, but when the AI work transition from being exploratory to larger engagements. And when it does become larger engagements, what sort of magnitude are you thinking about? And would you be in a good position to be a prime on some of those?

很好。你能否再多談一些——我知道現在還很早——AI 的工作何時會從探索性質轉為更大型的專案？而當它變成更大型專案時，你們預期的規模大概會是什麼程度？以及你們是否能在其中一些專案中擔任主承包商（prime）？

Rand?

Rand？

Well, the answer is yes. Mark, with you and others, we've talked about 3 layers of the road to AI, and that's the processing power and the work that's happening, not just in chips, but also in the software enterprise software world. And you see -- and then the next layer is cloud and the data. And the data preparation and the data readiness and the third is use cases.

嗯，答案是可以。Mark，我們和你以及其他人談過通往 AI 的三層路徑：第一層是運算能力與正在發生的工作，不只是在晶片，也在軟體、企業軟體的世界。你會看到——接著第二層是雲端與資料，包括資料準備與資料就緒；第三層是使用案例（use cases）。

So there's a lot of work, obviously, for companies like us in that middle layer in the data side, the use cases will be an application of that data. So I would think if I were a client, I'm presuming this will happen. The client says, look, you've done some great work with our data work. I need you to now extend it to our use cases and what we're trying to accomplish at the end of the day. By the way, we're building the data in a way that supports some of these use cases that are vision envisioned.

所以顯然對像我們這樣的公司而言，在中間那一層、也就是資料端，有大量工作要做；而使用案例會是這些資料的應用。因此如果我是客戶，我會假設這會發生：客戶會說，『你們在我們的資料工作上做得很棒。我現在需要你們把它延伸到我們的使用案例，以及我們最終想達成的目標。順帶一提，我們正在以能支援某些已構想的使用案例的方式來建置資料。』

So should we be a prime? Yes, because of our inroads with data and the cloud and the infrastructure of data. And should we also be smart on the technologies that continue to emerge, not just the enterprise technology, but these newer technologies that are coming out, and we're doing both, not just through our alliance relationships, but our experience. So I hope we are in great position to support them as we go.

那我們是否應該擔任主承包商（prime）？是的，因為我們在資料、雲端以及資料基礎設施方面已有切入與基礎。我們也是否應該對持續出現的新技術保持敏銳——不只是企業技術，還包括這些正在推出的較新技術——而我們兩者都在做，不僅透過我們的聯盟合作關係，也透過我們的經驗。所以我希望我們在支持客戶推進時處於非常有利的位置。

And if you remember, Gartner pointed out that they thought the customer experience was going to be the highest and best use cases for AI in the future. And our creative marketing team has done cyber -- Creative Circle has done a lot of work, both pioneering, working, articulating and helping clients think about their use case strategy. So I'm hoping we're in good position. But importantly, we're doing the building block work that we need to do to be in that position.

而且如果你記得，Gartner 指出他們認為客戶體驗將會是未來 AI 最高、最好的使用案例。我們的創意行銷團隊也做了——Creative Circle 在這方面做了很多工作，包含開創性嘗試、實作、闡述，並協助客戶思考其使用案例策略。所以我希望我們處於良好位置。但更重要的是，我們正在做必要的基礎建設工作，讓我們能處於那個位置。

I think one more point is, remember, Mark, we now for several years running have been identified as the #1 provider of AI capabilities in the federal government space. So that's an internal solution capability that not only supports our federal customer, but we can leverage that know-how in certain commercial areas.

我想再補充一點，Mark，請記得，我們已連續好幾年被認定為聯邦政府領域 AI 能力的第一大供應商。所以那是一項內部的解決方案能力，不僅支援我們的聯邦客戶，也能把這些專業知識運用到某些商業領域。

That's terrific. And then can you talk a little bit about like the supply side in terms of obviously these skills are in really high demand. I'm wondering like what is the pipeline? Where are you getting the contractors that truly have the knowledge, what level do they have? And how are you thinking about the bill rates and the margins, given the scarcity relative to the demand? It sounds like this should be over who knows whether it's a year from now or 3 years from now, but a really promising area.

太棒了。接著你能談談供給端嗎？顯然這些技能需求非常高。我想了解人才管道是什麼？你們從哪裡找到真正具備相關知識的承包人員，他們大概是什麼程度？在供給稀缺相對於需求的情況下，你們如何看待計費費率（bill rates）與利潤率？聽起來這會是——不確定是一年後或三年後——但非常有前景的領域。

Yes. Well, remember, we're not just hiring one AI expert, right? There's multiple facets and layers to this, as Rand mentioned, I mean, today in the data world, we have many of these in our -- many of these people in our organization and working on other data type projects that can port to these AI use cases and be effective there. So I mean, I think a lot of these players will come from pools of solution capabilities that we already have in our business today, if you will.

是的。嗯，請記得，我們不是只在招一位 AI 專家，對吧？這裡有多個面向與層次，如 Rand 提到的。我的意思是，今天在資料領域，我們組織裡已經有很多這類人才，並且正在做其他資料類型的專案，這些能力可以轉移到 AI 的使用案例上並在那裡發揮效果。所以我認為，很多人選會來自我們目前業務中既有的解決方案能力人才庫。

Great. And in terms of TMT, you've mentioned that the accounts look like they're a little bit stable, but TMT was down 27% versus 18%. Are you seeing sequential stability like on a week-to-week basis? Just wondering how you're thinking about that.

很好。那在 TMT 方面，你們提到客戶看起來稍微穩定一些，但 TMT 下滑 27%，相較之下整體是 18%。你們是否看到按週（week-to-week）的連續性穩定？想了解你們如何看待這點。

Yes. I'd say the answer is yes. But Rand, do you want to comment on that one?

是的。我會說答案是是的。但 Rand，你想回應一下這題嗎？

Yes. I think we're watching both, and we're watching what I call micro indicators. So we watch certain things in the marketplace. Things we've mentioned whether companies are having their earnings, are they growing themselves, which products, if you will, in the technology and telecommunications area growing. Where is that spending being added in media to help those businesses.

是的。我想我們兩邊都在看，而且我們在看我所稱的微觀指標（micro indicators）。所以我們會觀察市場上的某些事情。我們提過的一些點，例如公司是否公布財報、它們自身是否成長；在科技與電信領域，哪些產品（如果你願意這麼說）在成長；媒體端的支出增加到哪裡以支援那些業務。

And you're seeing some of that starting to turn around. When we look at stability, obviously, we've declined through the year. Keep in mind, our comps from a year ago were quite high. But definitely, as we exited Q3 and we started in Q4, we see -- which to us is a step in the right direction, steadiness in the work and the workflow. But I think you look at these other indicators, and you see that there's maybe a light at the end of the tunnel coming.

而你會看到其中一些開始回溫。當我們看穩定性時，顯然我們在今年一路下滑。請記住，我們去年同期的比較基期相當高。但確實地，當我們走出第三季並進入第四季時，我們看到——對我們而言這是朝正確方向的一步——工作與工作流（workflow）呈現穩定。不過我認為你再看這些其他指標，會覺得也許隧道盡頭開始出現一點光。

Great. And then one last, Tobey asked a history question, I've got one as well. Rand said, you've both been involved in this business for multiple cycles. How would you compare what we're seeing on the commercial side in terms of the trends right now relative to prior cycles? What elements feel different from your perspective? My recollection was Apex actually navigated the GFC really well. And so I'm just wondering how your -- how does this compare? How are you thinking about it?

很好。最後還有一個問題，Tobey 問了一個歷史問題，我也有一個。Rand 說，你們兩位在這個業務中經歷了多個景氣循環。就目前商業端的趨勢而言，你會如何將我們現在看到的情況與過去的循環相比？從你的角度看，哪些要素感覺不同？我的印象是 Apex 在全球金融危機（GFC）期間其實應對得很好。所以我想知道你們的——這次相比如何？你們是怎麼思考的？

Yes. Well, it's different for sure, right? Business cycle to business cycle, but no two are kind of based on the same foundation or act in the same way. If you think about the great financial crisis, certainly, that affects the big banks in the financial services industry, things related to the banks, predominantly housing and mortgage, if you will, and the retail and the consumer got caught in some of that stuff.

是的。嗯，確實不一樣，對吧？每個景氣循環都不同，但沒有兩個是建立在相同的基礎上，或以相同方式運作。若你回想全球金融危機，當然，那主要影響的是金融服務業的大型銀行，與銀行相關的事情，主要是房市與房貸；零售與消費者也被捲入其中。

And I think that what's different this time is it's been 2 years now that we've been watching this interest rate increase and in turn been talking about an impending recession and large enterprise accounts have slowly positioned themselves in a much more cautious way. And that's happened broadly across the board over a long period of time. And so instead of seeing kind of a faster ripple through certain industries, you've seen it broad-based over a long period of time in enterprise accounts. And I think that makes this cycle, if you will, a little more different.

我認為這次不同之處在於，我們已經觀察這波利率上升兩年了，並且因此一直在談論即將到來的衰退；大型企業客戶也逐步以更審慎的方式調整布局。而且這種情況在很長一段時間內、幾乎全面性地發生。因此，你不是看到某些產業快速出現連鎖反應，而是看到企業客戶端在很長一段時間內呈現廣泛性的影響。我認為這讓這一輪循環（如果你要這麼說）顯得更不一樣。

That being said, how we manage through this is not too different. I mean we've definitely done this at various times before. So we have an understanding about how that business should operate and what the management actions are that we need to take. And we also kind of realize the things that sometimes leave you into these downturns are the things that leave you out.

話雖如此，我們如何管理並度過這段期間，其實差異不大。我的意思是，我們以前在不同時期確實也經歷過。所以我們了解這門生意應該如何運作，也知道需要採取哪些管理動作。我們也大致明白，有時候把你帶進衰退的因素，也會把你帶出衰退。

So certainly, our TMT industry was one that really led, I think, for many of us into this cycle. And while it's still not there, you may be seeing signs that their businesses are returning to growth and better profitability, and that will be good for us because they'll want to lean into more IT initiatives that they need us to be a part of. So that will be a positive thing for us.

因此，當然，我們的 TMT 產業是我認為對我們許多人而言、在這一輪循環中最早領先走弱的產業之一。雖然目前還沒完全回到原狀，但你可能已經看到一些跡象，顯示他們的業務正在回到成長、獲利能力也在改善；這對我們會是好事，因為他們會希望加大投入更多需要我們參與的 IT 計畫。所以這對我們會是正面的。

Our next question comes from the line of Jeff Silber with BMO Capital Markets.

我們的下一個問題來自 BMO Capital Markets 的 Jeff Silber。

In your prepared remarks, and I'm going to quote it, in our Commercial segment, we anticipate revenues to remain soft across both assignments and consulting, and this is referring to your guidance for the fourth quarter. Should I assume that means that you think both assignment and consulting will be down on a year-over-year basis in the fourth quarter?

在你們事先準備的發言中——我引用一下——「在我們的商業（Commercial）部門，我們預期派遣（assignments）與顧問（consulting）兩者的營收都將維持疲弱」，這是指你們對第四季的指引。我是否可以理解為，你們認為第四季派遣與顧問兩者都會在年對年基礎上下降？

So, Jeff, thanks for the question. I think that our guidance kind of reflects what I would call flat to very slightly down in the Commercial and up in the Federal, if Marie were talking to you, that's what she would say. And then secondarily, I think we're taking also a little bit more conservative view of permanent placement and how that could influence the margins.

Jeff，謝謝你的問題。我認為我們的指引反映的是：商業端我會稱之為持平到非常小幅下滑，而聯邦端則是成長；如果 Marie 跟你談，她會這麼說。其次，我們也對永久職缺媒合（permanent placement）採取稍微更保守的看法，以及它可能如何影響毛利率。

So I think those are the competitors on the commercial side. Look, there's -- although there's no real material change in the operating environment. The fourth quarter is always lower than the third quarter. So the third quarter is always the strongest. And in the fourth quarter, you see a little softening, and that's because you've got holidays and less Billable Days. You also have various projects come to natural end, customers working on budgets on things that they may not start until the next year.

所以我認為這些是商業端的考量。你看——雖然營運環境沒有實質性的變化，但第四季一向會比第三季低。第三季通常是最強的；到了第四季會稍微轉弱，因為有假期、可計費天數（Billable Days）較少。也會有一些專案自然結束，客戶在做預算，某些事情可能要等到明年才會啟動。

And then you have some clients who will get kind of into December and say, look, I'm not going to finish this by January 1. Let's just shut the lights off here for a week or 10 days, and let's come back at it after the holidays. And so those are all natural things that happen here in the fourth quarter. So that's what's underneath the guidance.

另外也會有一些客戶到了 12 月會說：你看，我不可能在 1 月 1 日前完成。那我們就先把這邊暫停一週或 10 天，假期後再回來繼續。因此，這些都是第四季自然會發生的事情。這就是指引背後的原因。

I'll tell you at macro level in the Commercial market, there's no real change in the operating environment. I think that's one thing that is kind of clear here, and we coming out of Q3 and into Q4, things are what we would say is fairly steady. Our Q3 was a little bit better than expected, and that then translates into how we set Q4 guidance.

我可以告訴你，就商業市場的總體層面而言，營運環境沒有真正的變化。我認為這點相當明確；我們從第三季走出來進入第四季，情況我們會說是相當穩定。我們第三季表現比預期稍好，而這也會反映在我們設定第四季指引的方式上。

No turn yet in the commercial market. The Commercial market is still not found an inflection point. We've talked about little things on the call here that we are hopeful that as they begin to lead us, as Rand said, to a little bit of life, but no turn yet. And the business stabilizers, obviously, are working in our business and continue to work and we feel good about them maintaining EBITDA margin for us even in the face of a really difficult commercial market.

商業市場目前還沒有出現轉折。商業市場仍未找到拐點。我們在這通電話裡談到一些小事情，我們希望它們能開始帶來一些生機，正如 Rand 所說，但目前還沒有轉折。而業務的穩定器（business stabilizers）顯然正在我們的業務中發揮作用並持續發揮作用；即使面對非常艱難的商業市場，我們也對它們能協助我們維持 EBITDA 利潤率感到有信心。

Okay. I understand. Maybe I could shift gears to the Federal Government business. I know you mentioned in terms of the potential government shutdown. I think it was less than 10% of your business will be impacted. But can we just talk about the mechanics? I mean what happens if, God forbid, we do get a shutdown? Do all the projects stop? Contract negotiation stop? If you could just help me walk through what we could expect if that does happen.

好的，我明白。也許我可以換個話題談聯邦政府業務。我知道你提到可能的政府關門（shutdown）。我記得你說受影響的業務不到 10%。但我們能談談運作機制嗎？我的意思是，萬一真的發生關門，會怎麼樣？所有專案都停止嗎？合約談判也停止嗎？如果你能幫我梳理一下，若真的發生，我們可以預期會是什麼情況。

Well, I think in that, the first thing that could happen in that is, you immediately kind of come together close with your clients and you determine what's critical and what's not, right? And thankfully, we've already started that process based on some of what was going on in that market, leading into October. So we've got to foot ahead on that, if you will, and we have a pretty good idea. Once you go through that, you continue to work on the mission-critical stuff. And you make a determination, the client makes a determination on the few things that may not appear to be mission-critical and said that our client will do that in concert with us, and so we'll know that.

嗯，我認為在那種情況下，第一件可能發生的事是，你會立刻與客戶更緊密地聚在一起，判斷哪些是關鍵、哪些不是，對吧？幸好，基於該市場在進入 10 月前的一些情況，我們已經開始這個流程了。所以如果你要這麼說，我們已經領先一步，而且我們有相當清楚的掌握。完成這一步後，你會繼續做那些任務關鍵（mission-critical）的工作。至於少數看起來可能不是任務關鍵的事項，會由客戶做出判斷；客戶會與我們協同決定，因此我們也會知道。

And then what happens on new work is it pushes to the right. So awards that are in processed get delayed a little bit, the adjudication of those, no matter what stage they are in and things just slightly slip out into the first quarter or the first half of next year.

至於新工作會發生什麼事，就是往後遞延。所以正在流程中的得標案會稍微延後，不論它們處於哪個階段，相關的審核/裁定（adjudication）都會延遲一些，事情就會稍微順延到第一季或明年上半年。

And Jeff, maybe one thing, too, to note here. And who knows, it's been such a crazy turn of events here over the last few weeks in the -- that Federal Government space with what's going on with the house. But it's not presuppose there's going to be a shutdown. I mean we mentioned that in our -- as a caveat in our guide. But it looks like we could be moving here towards another continued resolution of some period of time, whether that's a short wind or a long wind. We're in one right now. And so we'll see how things develop on that front as we get a few more weeks down the road.

Jeff，另外也許還有一點值得注意。而且誰知道呢，過去幾週在聯邦政府領域發生的事情——眾議院那邊的狀況——變化非常瘋狂。但這並不代表一定會關門。我們在指引中提到那點，是作為但書。不過看起來我們可能正朝向另一個持續決議（continued resolution），期限可能短也可能長。我們現在就處在一個持續決議之中。所以接下來幾週，我們會看看這方面如何發展。

Yes. We finally have a speaker, so that's a good sign.

是的。我們終於有議長了，所以這是個好跡象。

Our next question comes from the line of Seth Weber with Wells Fargo.

我們的下一個問題來自 Wells Fargo 的 Seth Weber。

Rand, I appreciate the comments about kind of stability here at the end of the third quarter. I'm just wondering, would you be willing to talk to kind of cadence of business through the quarter like if things -- were things sort of stable through the third quarter? Did they go down? Did they get a little better? Did they get a little bit worse? So just wondering if you could give any color on sort of the intra-quarter trajectory on the Commercial side.

Rand，我很感謝你對第三季末端「相對穩定」的評論。我想問的是，你是否願意談談該季內的業務節奏？例如第三季整體是否都算穩定？有下滑嗎？有稍微變好嗎？有稍微變差嗎？所以想請你提供一些商業端在季內走勢（intra-quarter trajectory）方面的補充說明。

You're talking about Q3?

你是指第三季（Q3）嗎？

I was talking about Q3, yes. Just the kind of July, August, September trend lines.

是的，我指的是第三季。就是 7 月、8 月、9 月的趨勢線。

I would say light waves, we would have sectors and client sectors where you have a little wave up and then you have other sectors with a little wave down, but nothing too dramatic, I would say. So it's more rolling waves through the quarter. But I think we're pleased, particularly -- and I guess I'd make this comment in our more discretionary areas like the staffing, the firm placement work, the creative marketing work, the fact that it becomes a little more stable towards the end of the quarter, and you could almost predict week-to-week what you're going to see. And that was a good sign.

我會說是一些小波動：某些產業與客戶產業會有一點上升的波，其他產業則有一點下降的波，但我認為沒有太戲劇性的變化。所以整季更像是滾動式的波動。不過我想我們感到滿意的是，特別是——我想我會在我們較具可自由裁量的領域做這個評論，例如人力派遣（staffing）、永久職缺媒合（perm placement）工作、創意行銷（creative marketing）工作——在季末變得更穩定，你幾乎可以逐週預測你會看到什麼。這是一個好跡象。

Okay. And then I just wanted to go back to the comment, the Gartner forecast comment relative to your business. I mean, they are -- Gartner is projecting a pretty big uptick over the next couple of years. And so I'm just trying to tie that together. Are you just not confident -- you're not ready to make that call yet? Are you seeing any kind of green shoots that would lend you confidence that, that's the actual right way to think about it? Or it's just too soon to make that call? Because I mean, Gartner has -- does have that forecast out there.

好的。然後我想回到先前那個評論，也就是 Gartner 對你們業務相關的預測評論。我的意思是，他們——Gartner——預測未來幾年會有相當大的上升。所以我只是想把這兩者串起來。你們只是沒有信心——你們還沒準備好做出那個判斷嗎？你們有看到任何「綠芽」能讓你們更有信心，認為那才是正確的思考方式嗎？還是說現在下結論還太早？因為我的意思是，Gartner 的確——確實有提出那個預測。

Right. It's such a broad forecast. I mean, if you start to break it down into areas, the software companies and the big tech companies providing cloud and now generative AI capabilities and other things, they're seeing pretty good growth rates. The consulting services and the IT services behind that, or a little bit of a lead lag. So I guess, Seth, I would probably lay it more on that, right? And I think what Gartner is capturing is a big, broad spend in all those categories. Rand, would you say anything else?

對。那是一個非常廣泛的預測。我的意思是，如果你開始把它拆解到各個領域，軟體公司以及提供雲端、現在還有生成式 AI 能力與其他東西的大型科技公司，他們的成長率相當不錯。其背後的顧問服務與 IT 服務則會有一點領先/落後的差異。所以我想，Seth，我大概會把重點放在那一點上，對吧？而我認為 Gartner 捕捉到的是在所有這些類別上的一個很大、很廣泛的支出。Rand，你還會補充什麼嗎？

I think, Seth, we look at it by industry. I appreciate what Gartner is saying, but we watch particularly the earnings of different industries and companies within these industries. So we were pleased that the banks had a good quarter, this past quarter. It looks like big technology had a good quarter. I'm not sure Telco is where they are for sure. We're not worried about providers because we're the baby boomers are demanding more services, and you have the flu season.

我想，Seth，我們是按產業來看。我理解 Gartner 的說法，但我們特別關注不同產業以及這些產業內公司的獲利表現。所以我們很高興銀行在上一季有個不錯的季度。看起來大型科技也有個不錯的季度。我不確定電信業是否真的到那個程度。我們不擔心醫療服務提供者，因為嬰兒潮世代正在要求更多服務，而且你還有流感季。

And so I mean, if you watch the earnings, it's utilities, it's oil and gas. it's -- this consumer staple is assuming the consumer stays strong, are doing well. And by the way, we're doing well. If you believe that the banks can continue to improve their -- build on their performance -- I wouldn't say improved, build on it, then that's portends a good thing. I think technology is claiming they're getting better in advertising dollars, and they're getting better reach and they're coming back.

所以我的意思是，如果你看獲利表現，公用事業、石油與天然氣——還有——民生必需品（前提是消費者維持強勁）都表現不錯。順帶一提，我們也表現不錯。如果你相信銀行能持續改善他們的——我不會說改善，而是建立在他們的表現之上——那就預示著一件好事。我認為科技業宣稱他們的廣告收入正在變好，他們的觸及率也在提升，而且正在回來。

Obviously, the enterprise software guys are doing really well, right? Mostly because they're embedding AI and they're raising the rate structure around that AI, which clients have to spend now even if they're not putting it to full use till later. And that goes back to those 3 layers. We talked about processing power, data and use cases. So there are certainly indicators we watch in a macro sense around the industries to give us a sense of what the client spend will be. And we also know what they're worried about and what they're thinking about in terms of their initiatives, particularly in that middle layer, the data layer.

很明顯，企業軟體那群人做得非常好，對吧？主要是因為他們把 AI 嵌入產品，並且提高了圍繞 AI 的費率結構；客戶現在就必須花這筆錢，即使他們要到之後才會完全用到。這也回到那三層。我們談過算力、資料與使用案例。所以我們確實會在宏觀層面觀察各產業的一些指標，以掌握客戶支出會如何走。我們也知道他們在擔心什麼、在想什麼，尤其是就他們的各項計畫而言，特別是在中間那一層——資料層。

So I mean, I think those are things we look at, right? And is anything conclusive yet from all that data? I think with stability in the federal government and interest rates, I think we might see something good, but what do I know. I mean, I'm certainly not a professional economist.

所以我的意思是，我想這些就是我們會看的東西，對吧？而從所有那些資料來看，有任何結論性結果了嗎？我想如果聯邦政府與利率能維持穩定，我們可能會看到一些好轉，但我又懂什麼呢。我的意思是，我當然不是專業經濟學家。

Our next question comes from the line of Josh Chan with UBS.

我們下一個問題來自 UBS 的 Josh Chan。

I guess you mentioned that on the consulting side, there's some elongation of projects and that's causing some of the softness. So historically, what typically gets the clients more confident that they will, I guess, recompress those project time lines again? What are you looking for there?

我想你提到在顧問端，有些專案時程被拉長，這造成了一些疲軟。那麼從歷史上看，通常是什麼會讓客戶更有信心，進而我想，重新把那些專案時程再壓縮回來？你們在那方面會看什麼？

Well, look, I think it's back to what Rand said. When Rand is speaking about, they're watching their bottom line and they're measuring how much they're willing to burn and spend on projects in order to get to certain outcomes, they have to feel better about their own growth and pick up the pace, if you will, of investments and initiatives in IT.

嗯，聽著，我想這又回到 Rand 說的。當 Rand 談到他們在看自己的獲利底線，並衡量他們願意燒多少錢、花多少錢在專案上以達成某些成果時，他們必須對自身成長感覺更好，並且加快步伐——如果你願意這麼說——在 IT 的投資與各項計畫上。

So they're hanging in there with the critical stuff. They're trying to measure it out and watch that. But I think it goes back to again, we've said a few times today, and I think it implies to your question, Josh. They just have to feel better about where they're headed quarter-to-quarter and into 2024 to really lean in harder and speed up and take on more spend in IT.

所以他們仍然撐著做關鍵的事情。他們試著把節奏拉開、衡量並觀察。但我想這又回到——我們今天已經說了幾次——而且我認為這也呼應你的問題，Josh。他們必須對自己每一季到下一季、以及進入 2024 年的走向感覺更好，才會真的更用力投入、加速，並承擔更多 IT 支出。

That's good color. I guess I got my second question on margins. So it looks like your SG&A is going down more than your revenue is. Is that just a function of mix as some of the businesses that are down more have higher SG&A composition? I guess, could you talk to the SG&A decline there?

這很有幫助。我想我的第二個問題是關於利潤率。看起來你們的 SG&A 下降幅度比營收還大。這只是因為組合的因素——某些下滑較多的業務其 SG&A 佔比更高嗎？能否談談 SG&A 的下降？

So Josh, on SG&A, it's a -- you're talking about year-over-year?

所以 Josh，關於 SG&A，這是——你指的是年對年嗎？

Correct. Yes.

對。是的。

Yes. So we kind of noted that as well. So it really is a lower incentive comp associated really with our business stabilizers, right? So kind of just the rate around the incentive comp is really with the change is on a year-over-year basis.

是的。我們也注意到了。所以這其實是與我們的業務穩定器相關的較低激勵薪酬，對吧？所以基本上，激勵薪酬的比率變動，主要就是年對年的變化來源。

And I think to maybe just a second piece of detail under Marie's point is if you think about last year, we were at full incentive levels in all kinds of different ways. And so that in and of itself is a difficult comp on the expense side, right? So you were at full kind of max incentives and now incentives are properly coming down with -- to where the performance of the business is.

我想在 Marie 的觀點下再補充第二個細節：如果你回想去年，我們在各種不同面向上都處於全額激勵水準。所以光是這一點，在費用端就是一個很難比較的基期，對吧？也就是說你當時是全額、接近最高的激勵，而現在激勵正隨著——隨著業務表現回到應有的水準而下調。

Josh, it is worth mentioning, we don't have 2 different workforces, one for staffing, one for consulting. That was sort of embedded in your question. We have one workforce. Our account managers provide support to our clients across the array of services. Our recruiting team supports not just staffing requirements, but our consulting team requirements, and our back office certainly does both. So don't think of it as two different workforces. It's one workforce and then what Marie and Ted said is just what's happening across the board.

Josh，值得一提的是，我們沒有兩套不同的員工隊伍，一套做派遣、一套做顧問。那是你問題中隱含的假設。我們只有一套人力。我們的客戶經理為客戶提供涵蓋各項服務的支援。我們的招募團隊不只支援派遣需求，也支援我們顧問團隊的需求，而我們的後勤辦公室當然兩者都做。所以不要把它想成兩套不同的人力。是一套人力，然後 Marie 和 Ted 所說的只是全公司範圍正在發生的情況。

Our next question comes from Heather Balsky with Bank of America.

我們下一個問題來自美國銀行的 Heather Balsky。

I wanted to first quickly ask about permanent staffing, including Creative Circle, just if you can share kind of where you are in terms of, I guess, normalized trend, maybe pre-COVID. That would be helpful.

我想先快速問一下永久派遣（permanent staffing），包括 Creative Circle，就是你們能否分享一下你們目前大概處於什麼樣的水準——我想是相對於正常化趨勢，也許是 COVID 之前。這會很有幫助。

So for perm placement in Q3, it represents 2.6% of total revenues. If you kind of just look at it from a dollar perspective, we're down 42%. Last year, we were at 4.2% of total revenues. So -- and honestly, when you look at it, you just one other point. During COVID, the 2.6% is almost kind of close to our COVID levels.

所以第三季的永久安置（perm placement）佔總營收的 2.6%。如果你從金額角度來看，我們下滑了 42%。去年我們佔總營收的 4.2%。所以——而且老實說，再補充一點：在 COVID 期間，2.6% 幾乎也接近我們 COVID 時期的水準。

That's really helpful. And then my other question is actually on government. Current sort of potential shutdown aside, just what you're seeing in terms of spend and procurement? I know if we go back a year ago, there have been some delays in procurement. I'm curious if there's been any kind of improvement? Are they kind of back to a more normalized spending cycle? Or is -- maybe bringing in the potential shutdown is all the kind of stuff going on, creating some disruption and how they're spending?

這很有幫助。然後我另一個問題其實是關於政府部門。先不談目前可能的停擺，你們在支出與採購方面看到什麼？我知道如果回到一年前，採購上有一些延遲。我很好奇是否有任何改善？他們是否回到較正常化的支出週期？或者——也許把可能停擺納入考量——所有正在發生的事情是否造成一些干擾，影響他們的支出方式？

I don't think the continuing resolutions have caused that we're under right now any kind of disruption, if you will. I think we saw normal as much as we could, it could be normal, fairly normal into the government fiscal year in Q3. We -- our bookings were higher at $500 million. Our book-to-bill at 1.5 was a good number and a very good number and higher than we've been running it's about as we anticipated.

我不認為我們目前所處的持續決議（continuing resolutions）造成了任何干擾，如果你願意這麼說。我認為在第三季、進入政府會計年度時，我們看到的已經盡可能接近正常——相當正常。我們——我們的接單（bookings）較高，達到 5 億美元。1.5 的接單/出帳比（book-to-bill）是一個不錯的數字，而且是非常好的數字，也高於我們一直以來的運行水準，基本符合我們的預期。

And we'll watch the other peer groups, peer companies' release, but I expect them to have good results as it relates to new bookings. So I think on that front, Heather, even though we've got some wobbliness here going on and what's going on with the continuing resolution and some of those uncertainties that you saw a pretty healthy and good flow of contract awards in that federal government space during the third quarter, at the end of the government fiscal year.

我們也會觀察其他同業群組、同業公司的發布，但我預期他們在新接單方面也會有不錯的結果。所以我想在這方面，Heather，即使我們這裡有一些搖晃不定的情況，以及持續決議與一些不確定性所帶來的影響，你仍然在第三季、政府會計年度末的聯邦政府領域，看到了相當健康且良好的合約授予流量。

And our next question comes from Surinder Thind with Jefferies.

我們下一個問題來自 Jefferies 的 Surinder Thind。

I guess just a couple of clarifications on some earlier commentary. The first being the comments around just kind of clients elongating projects at this point. Are you able to quantify that in any manner? Are these 9 to 12 months projects that are now maybe being realized over 15 months? Or just -- how should we think about that? And then in terms of the context, obviously, around what -- how to interpret the bookings number there?

我想就先前一些評論做幾點釐清。第一是關於客戶目前把專案拉長的評論。你們能以任何方式量化嗎？這些原本 9 到 12 個月的專案，現在可能變成 15 個月才完成嗎？或者——我們應該如何理解？另外在脈絡上，顯然是關於——要如何解讀那個接單數字？

Yes. Well, I think that you, for sure, are seeing stuff like that. We've seen that typically, we're around 12 months on these projects on average for the commercial consulting team that now is leaking further out, whether it's 15 months or 16 months or would have you, it's definitely slowing.

是的。嗯，我認為你們確實正在看到類似的情況。我們看到通常商業諮詢團隊這些專案的平均週期大約是 12 個月，但現在正進一步拉長，無論是 15 個月、16 個月或諸如此類，確實是在放緩。

And I think it correlates with the fact that we're still getting solid bookings and book-to-bill numbers, but it's just yielding a lower growth rate. And our bill rates, I will just tell you anecdotally, are slightly up. So it's not a bill rate issue. It's a hours applied or hours billed phenomenon there.

而且我認為這與我們仍然取得穩健的訂單（bookings）以及接單/出單比（book-to-bill）數據有關，但只是帶來較低的成長率。至於我們的計費費率（bill rates），我只能用軼事方式告訴你，略有上升。所以這不是計費費率的問題，而是投入工時或計費工時的現象。

And is it also, Surinder, worth mentioning that none of this is new, we reported the same thing in the second quarter. And by the way, as quickly as it could slow down, it could also accelerate.

另外，Surinder，我想也值得一提的是，這些都不是新情況，我們在第二季就報告過同樣的事情。順帶一提，放緩的速度有多快，也可能同樣快地加速。

Got it. So the idea that the elongation process has stabilized at this point? Or is it that if we were to rewind a year ago when this first kind of started the 12 months was 13 to 14 months and now -- and then last quarter, it was 14, 15 months and now it's 15, 16 months. How should we think about that? Or is this...

了解。所以你的意思是，拉長的過程在此時已經穩定了嗎？還是說，如果我們回到一年前剛開始的時候，12 個月變成 13 到 14 個月，然後——接著上季是 14、15 個月，現在是 15、16 個月。我們應該怎麼看待？還是這是……

That's -- that would take a crystal ball, right? I think that's up to the client. I mean, I think we've seen for 2 quarters here, a similar trend to Rand's point. We don't see that it will change in the fourth quarter. So that will be 3 quarters. Although this, again, more to come, we'll have to watch this fourth quarter and see if it's consistent with the second and third, but we've got 2 quarters here where we've seen a fairly consistent trend.

那——這需要水晶球才能回答，對吧？我認為這取決於客戶。我是說，我們在這裡已經連續 2 個季度看到與 Rand 所說相似的趨勢。我們不認為第四季會改變。所以那將是 3 個季度。當然，這件事還要再觀察；我們必須看第四季是否與第二、第三季一致，但目前我們已經有 2 個季度看到相當一致的趨勢。

Understood. And then just a follow-up on the bill rates. You talked about a lot of renewal projects. It sounds like you're able to hold the line on pricing here, maybe even squeeze out a little bit more. Is that the right way to think about it? What exactly is the conversation there? Is there some CPI? Is there some negotiation here? Is there a lot of pushback? How should we think about that part of the growth algorithm? So is that adding maybe a percentage point of growth at this point? How should we think about that?

明白。那再追問一下計費費率。你提到很多續約專案。聽起來你們能在定價上守住底線，甚至可能再多擠出一點。這樣理解對嗎？那裡的對話到底是什麼？有跟 CPI 連動嗎？有談判嗎？反彈大嗎？我們應該如何看待成長算法中的這一部分？所以這目前大概能貢獻一個百分點的成長嗎？我們應該怎麼想？

So you're seeing very slightly -- very slight increases in bill rate, but a slight increase. You're seeing maintaining to slightly more in margin. And Rand, what would you say to the back and forth with the client?

所以你看到的是非常輕微——非常小幅的計費費率上升，但確實是小幅上升。你也看到毛利率維持到略有提升。Rand，關於與客戶之間的來回溝通，你會怎麼說？

Well, some of our work, a good portion of the work are set bill rates that have escalators to them as you go out into the future. And then some of the escalation could be some change in the mix of the project during the course of the execution of the project, maybe adding somebody with certain expertise or dropping somebody else out. So there's a number of factors that go into it, but it's not really a negotiation at that point. It's a matter of what's the right skill set to finish the job.

嗯，我們的一部分工作——相當一部分——是固定計費費率，並且隨著時間推進有調升條款（escalators）。另外，一些調升也可能來自專案在執行過程中組合的變化，例如加入具備特定專長的人，或把其他人移出。影響因素很多，但在那個時間點其實不太算是談判，而是要用正確的技能組合把工作完成。

Surinder, one thing I would just add at a high level is there for in-demand IT professionals in all these critical skill areas, the client still realizes that they have to pay a market rate in order to get them. There's not a sale going on, if you will. And so in those areas, there's a productive understanding between us and the clients that those are to get the best capabilities there that there is a certain rate for that.

Surinder，我想在更高層次補充一點：在這些關鍵技能領域中，對於需求旺盛的 IT 專業人才，客戶仍然明白他們必須支付市場價格才能取得這些人才。並不存在所謂的「特價」之類。因此在那些領域，我們與客戶之間有一種務實的共識：要取得最好的能力，就有其相對應的費率。

That's helpful. And then kind of the final question here. Just revisiting Commercial consulting. Revenues were down a few percentage points quarter-over-quarter. That was a surprise to me to see that given how strong that business has been and the fact that it showed strong sequential growth last quarter.

這很有幫助。那最後一個問題。再回到商業諮詢（Commercial consulting）。該業務的營收季對季下降了幾個百分點。考量到這個業務一直很強，而且上季還呈現強勁的連續成長，這讓我有點意外。

Just any color there? Is that maybe a few projects that maybe kind of ended near the same time? Or did clients just push out some work? Or is it more broad-based than that? I'm just trying to understand how to interpret that and how we should think about that on a go-forward basis?

能否提供一些背景？是不是有幾個專案剛好差不多同時結束？或是客戶把一些工作往後延？還是影響更廣泛？我只是想了解該如何解讀，以及未來我們應該如何看待？

Ted, do you want me to start?

Ted，你要我先開始嗎？

Well, I've got commercial consulting kind of flat quarter-to-quarter, sequentially. So -- and Surinder, tell me the rest of your question there.

嗯，我這邊看到商業諮詢季對季大致持平、連續來看是平的。所以——Surinder，把你問題的其餘部分再說一下。

Just the color around that. I mean I'm trying to pull up the slide deck here. When I see the commercial segment, I see Q2 at $281.1 in your slide deck in Q3 at $274.2. So I see that down 3 percentage points quarter-over-quarter for Commercial consulting.

就是想了解那背後的背景。我在這裡試著把簡報拉出來。當我看商業部門時，我在你們簡報裡看到第二季是 281.1（美元百萬），第三季是 274.2。所以我看到商業諮詢季對季大約下降 3 個百分點。

Correct. Slightly down. Yes. And I think it can almost best be explained by summertime, okay? Q3 has summertime and people take time off and it's just ending elongation of projects that may be decisions that they make in the summer, just like they're going to make in the fourth quarter around the holiday period. Ted mentioned earlier there, some companies will make a decision here in the next 3 or 4 weeks to furlough people for 5 days or 10 days, just to kind of put a pause on it, let people enjoy the holiday and get started again in January 1 or 2. So I think it's nothing to read into it other than that.

沒錯。略微下降。是的。我認為幾乎可以用暑期來解釋，好嗎？第三季有暑期，大家會休假；而且專案拉長也會延伸到他們在夏天做的一些決策，就像他們會在第四季假期期間做決策一樣。Ted 先前提到，有些公司會在接下來 3 到 4 週內決定讓員工無薪休假（furlough）5 天或 10 天，算是暫停一下，讓大家享受假期，然後在 1 月 1 日或 2 日再重新開始。所以我認為除了這些之外，沒有什麼需要過度解讀的。

Yes. I would tell you, once you adjust for days, it's a minimal, Surinder, there would be no discerning fact. There'd be no big thing around bill rates or hours or anything like that. I think it's just the vagaries of one quarter to another.

是的。我會告訴你，一旦把工作天數因素調整掉，影響非常小，Surinder，沒有任何可辨識的因素。沒有什麼跟計費費率或工時之類相關的大事。我認為這只是不同季度之間的自然波動。

And we have reached the end of the question-and-answer session. I'll now turn the call back over to CEO, Ted Hanson for closing remarks.

問答環節到此結束。現在我把電話交回給執行長 Ted Hanson 作結語。

Great. Well, I want to thank everyone for their time and attention and questions today, and we look forward to speaking with you about our fourth quarter and full year '23 at the beginning of February. Thank you very much.

很好。我要感謝各位今天撥冗參與、專注聆聽並提出問題。我們期待在 2 月初與各位討論我們 2023 年第四季以及 2023 全年的表現。非常感謝。

And this concludes today's conference, and you may disconnect your lines at this time. Thank you for your participation.

今天的電話會議到此結束，您現在可以掛線。感謝您的參與。