Cosan SA (CSAN) 2024 Q1 法說會逐字稿

Good morning, everyone. Thank you for waiting. And welcome to Cosan's first-quarter earnings release video conference call. (Operator Instructions) The video conference is being recorded and will be available on the company's IR website at cosan.com.br. (Operator Instructions)

大家，早安。謝謝您的等待。歡迎參加 Cosan 第一季財報發布視訊電話會議。（操作員說明）視訊會議正在錄製中，並將在該公司的 IR 網站 cosan.com.br 上提供。（操作員說明）

Please note that the information contained in this presentation and in the statements that may be made during the conference call regarding Cosan's business prospects, projections, and operating and financial goals constitute the beliefs and assumptions of the company's management as well as information currently available.

請注意，本簡報以及電話會議期間可能發表的有關 Cosan 業務前景、預測以及營運和財務目標的聲明中包含的資訊構成了公司管理層的信念和假設以及當前可獲得的資訊。

Forward-looking considerations are not a guarantee of performance. They involve risks, uncertainties, and assumptions as they refer to future events and, therefore, depend on circumstances that may or may not occur. Investors should know that overall economic conditions, market conditions, and other operating factors may affect Cosan's future performance and lead to results that differ materially from those expressed in such forward-looking statements. I will now turn it over to Mr. Rodrigo Araujo.

前瞻性考慮並不能保證業績。它們涉及風險、不確定性和假設，因為它們涉及未來事件，因此取決於可能發生或可能不會發生的情況。投資人應該知道，整體經濟狀況、市場狀況和其他經營因素可能會影響 Cosan 的未來業績，並導致結果與此類前瞻性聲明中表達的結果有重大差異。我現在將其移交給羅德里戈·阿勞霍先生。

Good morning, everyone. Welcome to our earnings call for the first quarter of 2024. I'm Rodrigo Araujo, CFO of Cosan. And I'm here to go over the main highlights of the quarter and some details in terms of strategy and management priorities. So starting with our priorities for the year, as we've been constantly reinforcing, we were highly focused on discipline and capital allocation and being of course mindful of our leverage at the HoldCo level and the OpCos and also, with the interest -- the high interest rate environment that makes our capital allocation decisions and discipline even more important. So we're focused on liability management and portfolio recycling throughout the portfolio.

大家，早安。歡迎參加我們 2024 年第一季的財報電話會議。我是羅德里戈·阿勞霍 (Rodrigo Araujo)，Cosan 的財務長。我來這裡是為了回顧本季的主要亮點以及策略和管理優先事項的一些細節。因此，從我們今年的優先事項開始，隨著我們不斷加強，我們高度關注紀律和資本配置，當然要注意我們在控股公司和運營公司層面的槓桿作用，而且還有興趣——高利率環境使我們的資本配置決策和紀律變得更加重要。因此，我們專注於整個投資組合的負債管理和投資組合回收。

We've been, of course, highly focused on execution in our portfolio to make sure that we maintain our track record in terms of execution. We delivered what's been promised in terms of the different guidances and plans of the operating companies. Of course, making sure that we're always enjoying benefits of the talent pipeline of high quality people that we have and maintaining continuously high safety standards in the group.

當然，我們一直高度關注投資組合的執行，以確保我們在執行方面保持良好的記錄。我們兌現了營運公司的不同指導和計劃中所做出的承諾。當然，確保我們始終享受我們擁有的高素質人才管道的好處，並在集團內保持持續的高安全標準。

And finally, we're focused also on supporting and making sure that we execute the contracted growth that's coming from the operational companies. So the structural projects of Lucas do Rio Verde to connect the Brazilian Midwest and agriculture area in Rumo, the second generation ethanol plants in Raizen, and the natural gas regasification terminal in Compass, for example.

最後，我們也專注於支援並確保我們執行來自營運公司的合約成長。例如，Lucas do Rio Verde 連接巴西中西部和 Rumo 農業區的結構項目、Raizen 的第二代乙醇工廠以及 Compass 的天然氣再氣化終端。

So going through our highlights of the first quarter of 2024. Our EBITDA under management finished in BRL7.1 billion in the quarter. The difference, when we compare to the first quarter of '23, is mainly related to the tax credits that were recognized in Raizen in the first quarter of '23 and were not recognized in the first quarter of '24.

讓我們來回顧一下 2024 年第一季的亮點。本季我們管理的 EBITDA 達到 71 億雷亞爾。當我們與 23 年第一季進行比較時，差異主要與 Raizen 在 23 年第一季確認但在 24 年第一季未確認的稅收抵免有關。

In terms of net income, we had the negative result of BRL192 million compared to the first quarter of '23 that was negative BRL904 million. Mainly the differences are the tax liabilities that we recognized in the first quarter of '23. And also, this was partially offset by the results of equity pickup -- the negative equity pickup from Raizen in the first quarter of '24 and the negative impact of the mark-to-market of our TRS in the first quarter of '24.

就淨利潤而言，與 23 年第一季的負 9.04 億雷亞爾相比，我們的淨利潤為負 1.92 億雷亞爾。主要差異是我們在 2023 年第一季確認的稅務負債。而且，這部分被股本回升的結果所抵消——24 年第一季 Raizen 的負股本回升以及我們 TRS 在 24 年第一季按市值計價的負面影響。

In terms of safety, our results in the first quarter of '24 are pretty well aligned with acceptable limits that we have even though it's slightly worse than '23. Fortunately, we had no fatality in this first quarter. We continue to be highly focused on maintaining very high safety standards and improving our results focused on zero fatalities and zero accidents.

在安全性方面，我們 24 年第一季的結果與我們的可接受限制非常吻合，儘管它比 23 年稍差一些。幸運的是，第一季我們沒有發生死亡事故。我們繼續高度重視維持非常高的安全標準，並提高我們的成果，以實現零死亡和零事故。

In terms of dividends and interest on capital received, it's pretty well aligned with the first quarter of '23. Our net debt of BRL22.7 billion is pretty aligned with the fourth quarter as well. And finally, in terms of interest coverage that is, of course, a metric that, as you guys know, we've been following closer since the fourth quarter of '24 or '23. We evolved from 1 time to 1.1 times for the last 12 months, so focused on improving our interest coverage in terms of sustainability of our leverage at the HoldCo level.

就收到的股利和資本利息而言，與 23 年第一季非常吻合。我們 227 億雷亞爾的淨債務也與第四季相當。最後，就利息覆蓋率而言，正如你們所知，我們自 24 年或 23 年第四季以來一直在密切關注這項指標。在過去 12 個月裡，我們的利率從 1 倍發展到 1.1 倍，因此我們專注於提高控股公司槓桿槓桿可持續性方面的利息覆蓋率。

Looking at the overall figures for the portfolio. In Rumo, we increased transported volumes and had an important increase in the average tariff. We are also advancing in our project of Lucas do Rio Verde to connect Mato Grosso in the north of the Midwest of Brazil.

查看投資組合的整體數據。在魯莫，我們增加了運輸量，平均運價也大幅增加。我們也正在推進 Lucas do Rio Verde 項目，以連接巴西中西部北部的馬托格羅索州。

In Compass, we had an increase in industrial consumption that was partially offset by the higher temperatures that reduced the residential consumption of natural gas. We had a negative mix impact given the fact that we had higher industrial volumes and lower residential volumes. We also had the positive impact coming from Edge, the company of marketing and services that we started up in the fourth quarter of '23. And we also had the conclusion of our regas terminal in Santos, in Brazil.

在康帕斯，工業消耗量增加，但部分被氣溫升高所抵消，居民天然氣消耗量減少了。鑑於我們的工業量較高而住宅量較低，我們產生了負面的混合影響。我們也受到了 Edge 的正面影響，這是我們在 23 年第四季成立的行銷和服務公司。我們也完成了巴西桑托斯的加氣站建設。

Moove, ahead stable volumes of lubricant sales but substantially higher EBITDA with much healthier margins, continuing its schedule and agenda to improve performance over time. In Radar, our land business, the recurring EBITDA was pretty aligned with the first quarter of the last year with respect to the leases of the agricultural properties in the portfolio, and the fair market value of our properties was BRL16.3 billion.

Moove 潤滑油銷量穩定，但 EBITDA 大幅提高，利潤率更健康，繼續其時間表和議程，隨著時間的推移提高業績。在我們的土地業務 Radar 中，就投資組合中的農業房地產租賃而言，經常性 EBITDA 與去年第一季相當一致，而且我們地產的公平市場價值為 163 億雷亞爾。

Annually, we reassess the fair market value and this was done in the fourth quarter of '23 and Cosan stake is around BRL5 billion. In Raizen, we had record sugarcane crushing levels, 84 million tons, with an important productivity recovery, especially in the first three cuts.

每年，我們都會重新評估公平市場價值，這是在 23 年第四季完成的，Cosan 的股份約為 50 億雷亞爾。在 Raizen，我們的甘蔗壓榨量達到了創紀錄的 8,400 萬噸，生產力顯著恢復，尤其是在前三次減產中。

So the sugarcane productivity, the investments that we did over the last couple of years are showing important results in terms of recovering productivity in the sugarcane. We also had healthier margins in the fuel distribution segment in mobility and also higher sugar prices.

因此，甘蔗生產力，我們過去幾年所做的投資在恢復甘蔗生產力方面顯示出重要成果。我們在燃料分銷領域的流動性和糖價方面也擁有更健康的利潤。

They were partially offset by lower ethanol prices. When we compare to the first quarter of '23, we had the negative impacts of tax credits that were recognized in the first quarter of '23 and were not recognized in '24 and also of lower ethanol prices.

它們被乙醇價格下跌部分抵消。當我們與 23 年第一季進行比較時，我們受到了 23 年第一季確認但 24 年未確認的稅收抵免以及乙醇價格下降的負面影響。

Finally, with respect to Vale, this was the first quarter that we consolidated the results, the equity pickup of Vale's results. We have also concluded the unwinding of our collar financing structure by the end of April. So we finished during the quarter the unwinding of part of the collar and then in April we sold around 0.78% of our stake in Vale, mainly focused on reducing the leverage at the HoldCo.

最後，關於淡水河谷，這是我們合併業績的第一季度，淡水河谷業績的股本回升。我們也於 4 月底完成了領融資結構的解除。因此，我們在本季完成了部分避險的平倉，然後在 4 月份，我們出售了約 0.78% 的淡水河谷股份，主要致力於降低控股公司的槓桿率。

So reducing the gross debt at the HoldCo level. So we concluded the unwinding of the entire structure and we also, in May, unwound the first tranche of the call spread, the forward -- synthetic forward structure that we had, around 0.25% of optionality in terms of additional Vale stake. So overall, if you look at the figures in May, we have 4.15% of direct stake and 1.43% of the synthetic forward, the call spread that we still maintain as an optionality.

因此減少了控股公司層級的總負債。因此，我們結束了整個結構的平倉，並且在5 月份，我們還平倉了第一部分看漲期權價差，即我們擁有的遠期——合成遠期結構，在額外淡水河谷股份方面大約有0.25%的選擇性。因此，總的來說，如果你看一下 5 月的數據，我們擁有 4.15% 的直接股權和 1.43% 的合成遠期股權，即我們仍然保留的看漲期權利差作為一種選擇。

So looking at the EBITDA under management, the overall figures, as I mentioned before, the main changes here are the better results in Rumo from higher margins and higher volumes and the negative results from the lack of recognition of tax credits in the first quarter of '24 in Raizen and the lower ethanol prices that were offset by sugar prices and volume. So we're getting to BRL7.1 billion of EBITDA under management.

因此，看看管理下的EBITDA，總體數據，正如我之前提到的，這裡的主要變化是Rumo 的更好業績，因為更高的利潤和更高的銷量，以及由於缺乏對第一季稅收抵免的認可而帶來的負面結果。 '24 的 Raizen 和較低的乙醇價格被糖價格和銷售所抵消。因此，我們管理的 EBITDA 達到 71 億雷亞爾。

Looking at our debt profile, as I mentioned, if you look at the green figures in the first quarter of '24 and then April, we concluded the unwinding of the collar structure that is pointed there as Cosan Oito and finishing the gross debt of BRL23.8 billion in April. Looking at the net debt to EBITDA, the pro forma adjusted when we include the fair market value of Vale's share, it's pretty aligned with the fourth quarter. So coming down from 1.8 times to 1.7, the overall cost of our debt, CDI plus 1.54%.

看看我們的債務狀況，正如我所提到的，如果你看看24 年第一季和四月份的綠色數字，我們就結束了Cosan Oito 所指向的領結構，並完成了23 巴西雷亞爾的總債務4月份為8億。看看 EBITDA 的淨債務，當我們包括淡水河谷股票的公平市場價值時，預計調整後的淨債務與第四季度非常一致。因此，我們的債務總體成本 CDI 從 1.8 倍降至 1.7 倍，增加了 1.54%。

In terms of the amortization profile, if you look at the figures in the lower part of the slide, we've increased the average -- the duration of the portfolio from 5.8 years to 6.5, doing liability management and improving the profile. So basically we substantially reduced the amortizations between 2024 and 2027 to better navigate the CapEx cycle in the portfolio.

就攤銷概況而言，如果您查看投影片下半部的數字，我們會增加平均投資組合期限，從 5.8 年增加到 6.5 年，進行負債管理並改善概況。因此，基本上我們大幅減少了 2024 年至 2027 年之間的攤銷，以更好地駕馭投資組合中的資本支出週期。

And finally, looking at the cash flows in the period, we received BRL911 million in dividends. So debt payments of BRL3.8 billion. We issued a bond in January '24 of BRL3 billion. So after interest and other expenses, we come down to an end balance of BRL2.6 billion. So we used part of the company's cash to reduce the overall gross debt. So those are the main highlights for the first quarter of 2024. Thank you for joining us today. And let's move on to our Q&A session. Thank you.

最後，從該期間的現金流來看，我們收到了 9.11 億雷亞爾的股息。因此，債務償還額為 38 億雷亞爾。我們於 2024 年 1 月發行了 30 億雷亞爾的債券。因此，扣除利息和其他費用後，我們的最終餘額為 26 億雷亞爾。因此，我們使用了公司的部分現金來減少整體債務總額。這些是 2024 年第一季的主要亮點。感謝您今天加入我們。讓我們繼續我們的問答環節。謝謝。

We will now begin the Q&A session with Mr. Rodrigo Araujo and Mrs. Ana Luisa Perina. (Operator Instructions) Luiz Carvalho, sell-side UBS.

現在我們將開始與 Rodrigo Araujo 先生和 Ana Luisa Perina 女士的問答環節。（操作員指示）Luiz Carvalho，賣方瑞銀。

Hello, good morning. Thank you, Rodrigo. Thank you, Ana, for taking my two questions. Rodrigo, could you give us a bit more detail about your leveraging? Have you got a leveraging target in terms of debt coverage? Or if I can rephrase my question, as of which point will you be looking at capital allocation or investments or accelerating dividends, buyback?

你好早安。謝謝你，羅德里戈。謝謝你，安娜，回答我的兩個問題。羅德里戈，您能給我們更多關於您的槓桿作用的細節嗎？您在債務覆蓋率方面有槓桿目標嗎？或者，如果我可以重新表達我的問題，那麼您將在哪一點考慮資本配置或投資或加速股息、回購？

And still along the same lines, would it make sense for Vale to wait for an additional reduction given the influence that you already have there with a member of the board? How do you see that?

同樣，考慮到您已經對董事會成員產生的影響力，淡水河谷等待進一步削減是否有意義？你怎麼看？

And my second question is about regulatory issues at the HoldCo level. Cosan, of course, have some ongoing discussions about the concession regulations, the authorization for the regas terminal, the Subida da Serra, also surrounding Vale, renewing the tariffs at Comgas. How do you see all these conversations? I know that this is essentially down to the companies. But how are you seeing all of those discussions at the HoldCo level? Thank you.

我的第二個問題是關於控股公司層級的監管問題。當然，Cosan 正在進行一些關於特許權法規、Regas 碼頭授權的討論，Subida da Serra 也在淡水河谷周圍，更新了 Comgas 的關稅。您如何看待所有這些對話？我知道這主要取決於公司。但您如何看待控股公司層面的所有這些討論？謝謝。

Hello, Luiz. Good morning and thank you for your question. So I'll start with leveraging. Our set target, we don't really have a set target, but to be healthy is about 1.5 to 2 times the interest coverage. So that would allow us to coverage -- to cover the debt service, while keeping the HoldCo's commitment and our current dividend payout level with organic deleveraging over time. So we don't really have a set time to get to that. We do have levers we can pull to get to that coverage level, but that's what we consider to be healthy. As I said during the last conference call, you'll be hearing us talk a lot more about interest coverage, aiming towards having dividends inflow and interest coverage outflow and dividend payout to the shareholders. So you'll be hearing us talk about that a lot more.

你好，路易斯。早安，謝謝你的提問。所以我將從槓桿開始。我們設定的目標，我們並沒有真正設定的目標，但健康的話大約是利息覆蓋率的1.5到2倍。因此，這將使我們能夠償還債務，同時保持控股公司的承諾和我們當前的股息支付水平，並隨著時間的推移進行有機去槓桿化。所以我們確實沒有固定的時間來實現這個目標。我們確實有辦法達到這個覆蓋水平，但我們認為這是健康的。正如我在上次電話會議上所說，您會聽到我們更多地談論利息保障倍數，旨在實現股息流入、利息保障倍數流出以及向股東支付股息。所以你會聽到我們更多地談論這個問題。

About Vale's position and the position size, we did quite a lot in the first quarter. It's been an extended first quarter, because it's been part in April, part in May. So essentially, what we've done since the beginning of the year, first we have unwound a collar structure. That collar structure was very important when we went forward with the acquisition, but it consumed part of the dividends that came in from Vale to keep the strike fixations.

關於淡水河谷的部位和部位規模，我們第一季做了很多。第一季的時間有所延長，因為一部分是四月，一部分是五月。因此，從本質上講，我們自今年年初以來所做的事情是，首先我們鬆開了衣領結構。當我們進行收購時，這種領結構非常重要，但它消耗了淡水河谷為維持罷工固定而帶來的部分股利。

So we're making adjustments so that we can have more access to dividends and have a duration that is more compatible with our CapEx flow in the portfolio. The duration was 2.5, now we've switched to 7.5 years. So we have changed our amortization profile as well and we've also adjusted the size. The first thing we did we sold the 0.78, as you know, to reduce gross debt at the HoldCo level.

因此，我們正在做出調整，以便我們能夠有更多的機會獲得股息，並擁有與投資組合中的資本支出流更相容的期限。持續時間是2.5年，現在我們已經改為7.5年。因此，我們也改變了攤銷概況，並調整了規模。如您所知，我們做的第一件事是出售 0.78 美元，以減少控股公司水準的總債務。

So that sale considered exactly what you said. Political influence, stake in the company, supporting the constructive agenda at Vale and Cosan's stake in the company. We believe that 4% won't make that much difference in terms of our influence in the company, but it makes a huge difference in terms of gross debt at Cosan. So obviously, we're looking into the ideal size all the time. It might be less than that, but let's assume that 4.15 taken on through the share buyback as the maximum level. And what we've always also done was that synthetic forward structure we had, considering that we were not going to exercise the first tranche, which was due in November '24, we executed it.

所以那次銷售完全考慮了你所說的。政治影響力、公司股份、支持淡水河谷的建設性議程以及 Cosan 的公司股份。我們相信，就我們對公司的影響力而言，4% 不會產生太大影響，但就 Cosan 的總債務而言，它卻產生了巨大的影響。顯然，我們一直在尋找理想的尺寸。它可能會低於這個值，但我們假設透過股票回購將 4.15 作為最高水準。我們一直以來所做的就是我們所擁有的合成遠期結構，考慮到我們不打算執行將於 24 年 11 月到期的第一筆付款，我們執行了它。

Because in practice, we believe the data of the option going again, so it will lose value over time. And given that it was still in cash, we chose to execute that. And it's not material, it's roughly BRL15 million. So we executed the first tranche. We kept the rest, because the rest doesn't really have a relevant carryover cost, but we'll continue to have the optionality to have the share upside. There are some implicit benefits there. So we're not keeping it to increase our position, that 1.43 won't be increased. We won't be increasing our position but we do have the optionality as this agenda moves forward with value, we might be able to capture additional value from this call spread without the implicit carryover cost.

因為在實踐中，我們相信期權的數據會再次發生，所以它會隨著時間的推移而失去價值。鑑於它仍然是現金，我們選擇執行它。而且這並不重要，大約是 1500 萬雷亞爾。所以我們執行了第一批。我們保留其餘部分，因為其餘部分實際上沒有相關的結轉成本，但我們將繼續擁有讓股價上漲的選擇權。那裡有一些隱性的好處。所以我們保留它不是為了增加我們的頭寸，1.43 不會增加。我們不會增加我們的頭寸，但隨著這項議程的價值推進，我們確實有選擇權，我們也許能夠從看漲期權價差中獲取額外的價值，而無需隱含的結轉成本。

Now as for the regulatory side, we have been monitoring that quite closely, Luiz, and it's key that we are very close to the business, and that is one of the group's characteristics. We know how to navigate this kind of scenario very well. And what we did recently, now that Nelson has joined us, we have made our institutional relations structure much more robust at Cosan, so that we have this connection among the business so that we can foster this joint regulatory agenda, because there are many touch points.

現在就監管方面而言，我們一直在密切關注，路易斯，關鍵是我們與業務非常接近，這是該集團的特點之一。我們非常清楚如何應對這種情況。我們最近所做的，現在Nelson 加入了我們，我們在Cosan 的製度關係結構變得更加強大，這樣我們就可以在業務之間建立這種聯繫，這樣我們就可以促進這種聯合監管議程，因為有很多接觸點點。

We have shared regulatory issues within the group and one of the roles Cosan plays is to share that, especially when it comes to regulatory issues. And with our member in Vale's board, we can also make contributions to that agenda at Vale. So that's it for our regulatory agenda. Luiz obviously, we're monitoring everything you've mentioned very closely but we're also preparing to be able to create value to that agenda as shareholders and to make sure that we have more exchanges so that the portfolio can gain increasingly more.

我們在集團內部分享了監管問題，Cosan 扮演的角色之一就是分享這一點，特別是在監管問題方面。透過我們在淡水河谷董事會的成員，我們也可以為淡水河谷的這項議程做出貢獻。這就是我們的監理議程。路易斯，顯然，我們正在非常密切地關注你提到的一切，但我們也準備能夠作為股東為該議程創造價值，並確保我們有更多的交流，以便投資組合能夠獲得越來越多的收益。

Isabella Simonato, sell-side Bank of America.

Isabella Simonato，美國銀行賣方。

Thank you. Good morning, Rodrigo. Hello, Ana. Hello, everyone. As a follow-up to the question about your leveraging, you've been making some important moves since the beginning of the year. And my question is about whether you have any strategic moves in mind in terms of managing Cosan's gross debt. And looking at the normal cost of deleveraging, as you said, depending on the dividends and the OpCo's performances.

謝謝。早上好，羅德里戈。你好，安娜。大家好。作為有關槓桿率問題的後續行動，自今年年初以來，您一直在採取一些重要舉措。我的問題是，在管理科桑的總債務方面，你們是否有任何策略性舉措。如你所說，去槓桿化的正常成本取決於股息和 OpCo 的表現。

When we look at each one of them and we have talked about that a while back, they all have CapEx. Some more than others. But they all have enough CapEx to do it. So what is the most relevant source of dividends to ramp up this deleveraging process in your opinion? Are there any opportunities that are similar to what you're doing at the HoldCo level at any of the OpCos that will allow them to become a major dividend payer so that this process can be accelerated?

當我們審視它們中的每一個時，我們不久前已經討論過這一點，它們都有資本支出。有些比其他更多。但他們都有足夠的資本支出來做到這一點。那您認為，加速去槓桿化過程最相關的股利來源是什麼？是否有任何機會類似於您在任何營運公司的控股公司層級所做的事情，使他們能夠成為主要股息支付者，從而加快這一進程？

Thank you, Isabella. Thanks for the questions. So I'll start with the first one about leveraging and everything we've been doing. I've also talked about our profile. As I said, I think it's important to reiterate, just as important as our level, it's important to have an adjusted profile to this CapEx cycle, as you said. And that's been part of what we've done and we will be doing more. We'll still perform some operations to adjust our profile, both in the domestic and international markets. So we will be more active in terms of profile DCM.

謝謝你，伊莎貝拉。感謝您的提問。因此，我將從第一個關於槓桿作用和我們一直在做的事情開始。我也談到了我們的個人資料。正如我所說，我認為重申這一點很重要，就像我們的水平一樣重要，正如您所說，對這個資本支出週期進行調整也很重要。這已經是我們所做工作的一部分，我們還將做得更多。我們仍將進行一些操作來調整我們在國內和國際市場的形象。所以我們在設定檔DCM方面會更加積極。

As for the level and M&A operations, as you know, we do have some assets. We don't really have any relevant updates on those but they are potential M&A targets, such as the port. We talked about it last quarter in terms of maturity levels to list Compass or Moove. We're not expecting anything for '24. But we are looking into potential listings when it comes to Moove and Compass. And as Luisa said, we're always looking at the ideal position at Vale. So this is a great asset with liquidity.

至於層級和併購操作，大家知道，我們確實有一些資產。我們實際上沒有任何相關更新，但它們是潛在的併購目標，例如港口。上個季度我們討論了列出 Compass 或 Moove 的成熟度等級。我們對 24 年沒有什麼期待。但我們正在研究 Moove 和 Compass 的潛在清單。正如路易莎所說，我們一直在尋找淡水河谷的理想職位。所以這是一項具有流動性的巨大資產。

So we're always looking at the size of our stake in it and we will be monitoring it over time. In terms of performance, CapEx and dividends. Well, number one, we need to make sure that we are executing on the structuring projects. I mentioned a few of them during the presentation. Look at the Rio Verde, the Regas Terminal, second generation ethanol. We need to make sure that those structuring projects are in place. What we have been discussing and fostering is that some companies are closer to the end of their CapEx cycles. Others are right in the middle of it.

因此，我們一直在關注我們所持有股份的規模，並將隨著時間的推移對其進行監控。在業績、資本支出和股利方面。嗯，第一，我們需要確保我們正在執行結構化專案。我在演講中提到了其中的一些。看看 Rio Verde、Regas Terminal、第二代乙醇。我們需要確保這些結構化項目到位。我們一直在討論和促進的是，一些公司已經接近其資本支出週期的結束。其他人則處於其中。

Compass, for instance, is already paying out more dividend this year. So we see some results coming from this very intense CapEx cycle. There won't be any CapEx looking forward but the last few years have been very intense when it comes to CapEx. And based on the numbers, you'll see that Moove is also concluding the integration of its acquisitions, making their cash generation capacity more robust. You've seen that and that will obviously translate into potentially more dividend payouts. And what we're always also seeing is that we're fostering -- managing our portfolio to focus on other structuring projects and recycling our portfolio, especially at Rumo and Raizen, which have a more relevant CapEx cycle over the next few years.

例如，康帕斯今年已經支付了更多股息。因此，我們看到了這個非常激烈的資本支出週期所帶來的一些結果。未來不會有任何資本支出，但過去幾年的資本支出非常緊張。根據這些數字，你會發現 Moove 也正在完成收購整合，使其現金產生能力更加強勁。您已經看到了這一點，這顯然會轉化為潛在的更多股息支付。我們也一直看到的是，我們正在培養——管理我們的投資組合，以專注於其他結構化項目並回收我們的投資組合，特別是在Rumo 和Raizen，它們在未來幾年有一個更相關的資本支出週期。

You know, we'll include bringing in partners to help fund structuring projects, the announcement of the additional capacity at Santos. As we've mentioned, we looked for partners to work with us on that project. Raizen has recently announced the sale of GD and looking at what's core, looking at what can be recycled within the portfolio. We expect to become increasingly more active in our capital discipline. And, Isabella, obviously, that has to do with Cosan, as a shareholder, but also with each individual company.

您知道，我們將引入合作夥伴來幫助資助建造項目，以及宣布桑托斯的額外產能。正如我們所提到的，我們正在尋找合作夥伴與我們合作進行此專案。Raizen 最近宣佈出售 GD，並研究其核心內容，研究投資組合中可以回收的內容。我們期望在資本紀律方面變得越來越積極。而且，伊莎貝拉，顯然，這與作為股東的科桑有關，但也與每個公司有關。

And it's important to reiterate that we are in a very challenging market environment right now. We started off the year with considerable interest rates looking forward. So every single business in our portfolio needs to have capital discipline. It's key to reiterate that, because navigating high interest rates requires excellent capital discipline, and you'll be hearing a lot more of that from the different OpCos. And that comes from the current scenario. Thank you, Isabella.

需要重申的是，我們目前正處於一個非常具有挑戰性的市場環境。新年伊始，我們就期待著可觀的利率。因此，我們投資組合中的每一項業務都需要遵守資本紀律。重申這一點很重要，因為駕馭高利率需要良好的資本紀律，而且您會從不同的營運公司聽到更多這樣的規定。這來自當前的情況。謝謝你，伊莎貝拉。

Thank you, Rodrigo. Could I ask a follow-up question about Raizen? It's interesting that you're talking about partners for structuring projects that are core to the subsidiaries. Do you think given the plan pipeline, which is considerable, and there's a long time to develop the pipeline. Would it make sense to start thinking about a strategic partner to go into that segment as well or is it too soon to say?

謝謝你，羅德里戈。我可以問一個關於 Raizen 的後續問題嗎？有趣的是，您正在談論建立子公司核心專案的合作夥伴。您認為考慮到計劃中的管道數量相當大，並且開發管道的時間很長。開始考慮策略夥伴進入該領域是否有意義，或現在說還為時過早？

I think, generally speaking -- well, let me give you a broader answer. It makes sense for any project. If this partner adds value, if the partner is in line with the shareholders, we'll always consider them. We have no restrictions when it comes to strategic partners. Obviously, some assets are more challenging than others. You know that second generation ethanol dynamics is very closely related to the first generation ethanol. It's got its specificities. But yeah, we're definitely looking at partners for structuring projects. If there are partners who can add value, not only financially but partners that can help us create value, then we will always consider them.

我認為，一般來說——好吧，讓我給你一個更廣泛的答案。這對於任何項目都有意義。如果這個合作夥伴能夠增加價值，如果這個合作夥伴與股東一致，我們就會一直考慮他們。對於策略夥伴，我們沒有任何限制。顯然，某些資產比其他資產更具挑戰性。您知道，第二代乙醇動力學與第一代乙醇密切相關。它有它的特殊性。但是，是的，我們確實正在尋找合作夥伴來建立專案。如果有合作夥伴可以增加價值，不僅在經濟上，而且可以幫助我們創造價值，那麼我們將永遠考慮他們。

Gabriel Barra, sell-side Citi.

加布里埃爾巴拉 (Gabriel Barra)，花旗賣方。

Hi, Rodrigo. Hi, Ana. Good morning. Thank you for answering my questions. I have a couple of follow-up questions. The first one is about Vale's position. So you've made some considerable adjustments to the position. Is this the ideal position in your opinion or can we expect further adjustments to Vale's position? And what may be the potential triggers to additional adjustments, or are you comfortable with the current position?

嗨，羅德里戈。嗨，安娜。早安.感謝您回答我的問題。我有幾個後續問題。第一個是關於淡水河谷的立場。所以你對這個職位做了一些相當大的調整。您認為這是理想的立場還是我們可以期待淡水河谷的立場進一步調整？進一步調整的潛在觸發因素​​是什麼，或者您對當前的位置感到滿意嗎？

Second follow-up question is about listing. You mentioned Moove maybe in 2024. Compass a little bit further down the line. I think Moove's thesis has been working very well. You've had some great results, and Compass as well. But there are some micro points. And going back to the first question about the regas terminal Subida da Serra. And my question is about what might be a trigger to list Compass. Would it have to do with market circumstances or more domestic issues before listing the company and waiting for the right time to do it?

第二個後續問題是關於上市的。你提到 Moove 可能會在 2024 年。指南針再往下走一點。我認為莫夫的論文非常有效。您已經取得了一些出色的成果，Compass 也是如此。但也有一些微觀點。回到蘇比達達塞拉加油站的第一個問題。我的問題是什麼可能會觸發列出指南針。是否與市場環境有關，還是與更多國內問題有關，然後再等待適當的時機上市？

And you've been very clear when it comes to capital allocation, the company's capital structure focusing on deleveraging. But every now and again, we're asked about [Raizen] and capital allocation. Cosan has always been a major player in capital allocation and looking for opportunities. So given the company's current capital structure, could you consider capital allocation here or are you really deleveraging and thinking about adjusting your capital structure in the short term, or might there be room for potential acquisitions or short term investments?

而且在資本配置方面你也講得很清楚了，公司的資本結構重點是去槓桿。但時不時地，我們會被問到 [Raizen] 和資本配置的問題。Cosan一直是資本配置和尋找機會的主要參與者。那麼考慮到公司目前的資本結構，你是否可以考慮在這裡進行資本配置，或者你是否真的在去槓桿並考慮在短期內調整你的資本結構，或者是否有潛在的收購或短期投資的空間？

Thank you, Gabriel. Thanks for the questions. So let's start with Vale. There is no magic number when it comes to the ideal position. So we'll be monitoring what is more adequate to Cosan's capital structure, how our agenda is advancing in terms of value generation. You know that we are always considering levers to create value. As you know, we've made some public announcements recently about the CEO succession process. There have been some major regulatory discussions as we mentioned at the beginning of the call. So many things are happening.

謝謝你，加布里埃爾。感謝您的提問。那麼就讓我們從淡水河谷開始吧。談到理想的位置，沒有神奇的數字。因此，我們將監控哪些內容更適合 Cosan 的資本結構，以及我們的議程在價值創造上的進展。您知道，我們一直在考慮創造價值的槓桿。如您所知，我們最近發布了一些有關執行長繼任流程的公開公告。正如我們在電話會議開始時所提到的，存在一些重大的監管討論。很多事情正在發生。

They are key to potentially unlocking value for the company in the short to the midterm. And so we need to consider all of that with the fact that we want to have an active voice. We want to be a shareholder that exerts influence. So it's not cast in stone that this is the ideal position. But from this upwards, I think 414, 415, for the time being, you can take that as the maximum level. But if at some point, we believe we should decrease that position based on Cosan's capital structure, we might consider that in light of liquidity. So that's where we are right now, and the triggers as I think I've mentioned most of them.

它們是中短期內為公司釋放價值的關鍵。因此，我們需要考慮所有這些，因為我們希望發出積極的聲音。我們要做一個有影響力的股東。因此，這並不是一成不變的理想位置。但從這個往上，我覺得414、415，暫時可以當作最高等級。但如果在某個時候，我們認為我們應該根據 Cosan 的資本結構來減少該頭寸，我們可能會根據流動性來考慮。這就是我們現在所處的位置，以及我想我已經提到的大部分觸發因素。

As for listing Compass, let me start by the end of your question. There is no market but that's not the main point, that's one of the points. I think the Brazilian market, we all know how challenging things have been this year. But despite that, it's not just about the regulatory agenda, there are many key things in the company's plan, a major pipeline to be executed. And if those are well executed, then we, as shareholders and Compass' management, are focusing on executing them then they will lead to value creation.

至於列出指南針，讓我從你問題的末尾開始。沒有市場，但這不是重點，這是重點之一。我認為巴西市場，我們都知道今年的情況有多具有挑戰性。但儘管如此，這不僅僅是監管議程的問題，公司的計劃中有許多關鍵的事情，有待執行的主要管道。如果這些執行得當，那麼我們作為股東和康帕斯管理層，就會專注於執行它們，然後它們將帶來價值創造。

We have Edge's rollout. The company started last year. As you know, we have very positive prospects for the terminal to create more optionalities, a commercial agenda for the company, unlocking more value, which is key. We also have Comgas' tariff review cycle this year, the strategic rollout of the distribution companies, assets in our pipeline and we may increase our share there. We also have investments in the assets that we are committed to selling very close to closing those on assets that are not core to us. So all of that is crucial. And removing uncertainties is always a good thing for any M&A.

我們已經推出了 Edge。該公司於去年成立。如您所知，我們對碼頭有非常積極的前景，可以為公司創造更多選擇、商業議程，釋放更多價值，這是關鍵。我們今年還有 Comgas 的關稅審查週期、分銷公司的策略部署、我們管道中的資產，我們可能會增加在那裡的份額。我們也對我們承諾出售的資產進行了投資，這些資產非常接近關閉那些對我們來說不是核心的資產。所以所有這些都是至關重要的。對於任何併購來說，消除不確定性總是一件好事。

So back to what I said at the beginning. In the Brazilian capital market, there is no room for that kind of operation right now. And just to reiterate something I said earlier when Isabella asked her question, we want to have enough room in Cosan's capital structure. And when I talk about profile, that's what I mean, that we can do that when the time is right, so as to create as much value as possible for Cosan and its shareholders. We don't want to be under pressure to do anything at the wrong time, at a time when it doesn't make sense for the company and that we leave value creation on the table, because we're being pressured by capital structure. So we're very aware of that.

那麼回到我一開始所說的。目前巴西資本市場還沒有這樣的操作空間。只是重申我之前在伊莎貝拉問她的問題時所說的話，我們希望在科桑的資本結構中有足夠的空間。當我談到形象時，我的意思是，我們可以在時機成熟時做到這一點，從而為 Cosan 及其股東創造盡可能多的價值。我們不想承受壓力，在錯誤的時間做任何事情，在這對公司沒有意義的時候，我們把價值創造留在桌面上，因為我們受到資本結構的壓力。所以我們非常清楚這一點。

And as for capital allocation, well, let me reiterate what I said during the presentation. We have a lot to do in our portfolio. Major CapEx in our company's value creation agenda. We've been working on that at value with recent investments. And to be very open, there is no space to increase indebtedness in Cosan's capital structure right now. We're working towards reaching the ideal point, the sweet spot to have a higher interest coverage than we have right now. We have been moving forward but we want to increase that.

至於資本配置，讓我重申我在演講中所說的話。我們的投資組合中有很多事情要做。我們公司價值創造議程中的主要資本支出。我們一直在透過最近的投資來實現這一目標。坦白說，目前科桑的資本結構中沒有增加債務的空間。我們正在努力達到理想點，即獲得比現在更高的利息覆蓋率的最佳點。我們一直在前進，但我們希望繼續前進。

So we have a lot to do and now is not the time. We've been very active. We have been making considerable contributions based on our experience on how close we are to the regulatory agency and what we do here in the State of Sao Paulo. So we have been making contributions to that process but I don't see any room in the company's capital structure for any additional allocation. Thank you for your questions.

所以我們有很多事情要做，但現在還不是時候。我們一直都非常活躍。根據我們與監管機構的密切程度以及我們在聖保羅州所做的工作的經驗，我們一直在做出相當大的貢獻。因此，我們一直在為這個過程做出貢獻，但我認為公司的資本結構中沒有任何額外分配的空間。謝謝您的提問。

Regis Cardoso, sell-side XP.

Regis Cardoso，賣方 XP。

Good morning, Rodrigo. Hi, Ana. Thank you for taking my questions. A couple of different subjects I'd like to touch on, please. First is Vale. Rodrigo, could you give us some more color on the benefits? You talked about increasing the duration, but what about the service of debt, carryover cost at Vale? With your call spread position right now, ultimately, do you think you could have just a financial settlement? But anyway, if you could talk about the specific financial instruments and give us an update on your investment thesis. So what you thought at the beginning, has it been materializing or not?

早上好，羅德里戈。嗨，安娜。感謝您回答我的問題。我想談幾個不同的主題。首先是淡水河谷。羅德里戈，您能給我們更多關於好處的說明嗎？您談到了延長期限，但淡水河谷的債務償還和結轉成本又如何呢？就您目前的看漲期權價差頭寸而言，最終您認為您可以僅獲得財務結算嗎？但無論如何，您能否談談具體的金融工具並向我們介紹您的投資論文的最新情況。那麼你一開始的想法，現在實現了嗎？

Second subject I'd like to touch on is your business portfolio composition. We're talking about service debt of the debt coverage. And could you talk about the company's current portfolio, including businesses, sectors, currencies, ability to pay and the conviction about the investment flows at the OpCos to service the HoldCo's debt? Thank you.

我想談的第二個主題是您的業務組合構成。我們談論的是債務保障中的服務債務。您能否談談該公司目前的投資組合，包括業務、部門、貨幣、支付能力以及對 OpCos 投資流動以償還控股公司債務的信念？謝謝。

Thank you, Regis. Thanks for the questions. Well, to give you an overview of what we have been doing at Vale, and then I'll go into the strategic side of the thesis. Since the beginning of the year, the collar unwinding, as you said, is about duration, but it goes beyond that. It has to do with capturing the results we expect for the company. It is about dividends. Considering last year, part of the dividends we were to receive were reverted to keep the strikes of the fixed collar. So as I mentioned at the beginning, the collar structure was key in terms of funding at the time of the acquisition, but you need to monitor it constantly to be able to unwind it, because it becomes expensive over time considering dividends.

謝謝你，雷吉斯。感謝您的提問。好吧，讓您概述我們在淡水河谷所做的事情，然後我將討論本文的戰略方面。從年初開始，領子的解開，正如你所說，是關於期限的，但它不止於此。它與獲取我們對公司期望的結果有關。這是關於股息的。考慮到去年，我們將收到的部分股息被恢復以保持固定領的罷工。因此，正如我在一開始提到的，就收購時的資金而言，領結構是關鍵，但你需要不斷監控它才能解除它，因為考慮到股息，隨著時間的推移，它會變得昂貴。

So in October 2022, if you remember, we hadn't elected a member of the board yet, there are many things yet to happen, there were a lot more uncertainties that we dealt with over time. So that has helped to unwind the collar structure. So in addition to have full access to dividends, there's also another soft side to it, but just as important, which is reducing complexity. That is also important. That is a value lever for Cosan shareholders even though it's quite an encompassing portfolio. Reducing complexity is key. Even though it's not a hard aspect, it's also been important. So the current snapshot is cost spread plus direct stake and it also unlocks the dividend payout.

所以在 2022 年 10 月，如果你還記得的話，我們還沒有選出董事會成員，還有很多事情有待發生，隨著時間的推移，我們處理了更多的不確定性。這有助於放鬆衣領結構。因此，除了完全獲得股息之外，還有另一個軟性的一面，但同樣重要，那就是降低複雜性。這也很重要。這對 Cosan 股東來說是一個價值槓桿，儘管它是一個相當廣泛的投資組合。降低複雜性是關鍵。儘管這不是一個困難的方面，但它也很重要。因此，目前的快照是成本價差加上直接股權，它也釋放了股息支付。

As for the future structure, what we have right now is the 1.43. We're not considering exercising that right now, but it could be through a financial settlement. So much so that we've already done it with the first tranche, which is that 0.25. So it can be a financial settlement and there's no carryover costs. And now going into your second question about the thesis, there have been some challenging times, especially at the beginning of this year, end of last year.

至於未來的結構，我們現在有的是1.43。我們現在不考慮行使這項權利，但可以透過財務解決方案來實現。如此之多以至於我們已經完成了第一部分，即 0.25。因此，這可以是一種財務結算，並且沒有結轉成本。現在進入關於論文的第二個問題，有一些充滿挑戰的時期，特別是在今年年初和去年年底。

Looking forward, I think the company is going through a better time now than two or three months ago. There were a lot of uncertainties, a lot of noise around the company. We still see positive fundamentals for the company and its ability to deliver results, cash generation even more. We've closed the value based metals deal so there have been some important things happening. And it's important to clarify that there are some aspects, the succession process, which is ongoing, unlocking the regulatory agenda, these are value levers. And obviously, as a relevant shareholder in the company, we want to make sure it happens. Our main thing to monitor in the thesis and the strategy is to make sure that that agenda moves forward, and we hope that that will happen this year. But we will be monitoring it closely.

展望未來，我認為公司現在的情況比兩三個月前好。公司周圍存在著許多不確定性和很多噪音。我們仍然看到該公司的積極基本面及其交付成果和現金生成的能力。我們已經完成了基於價值的金屬交易，因此發生了一些重要的事情。重要的是要澄清，有一些方面，即正在進行的繼任過程，解鎖了監管議程，這些都是價值槓桿。顯然，作為公司的相關股東，我們希望確保這一切發生。我們在論文和策略中要監控的主要內容是確保議程向前推進，我們希望這將在今年實現。但我們將密切監視它。

And given the asset's liquidity, even if we are constructive in terms of moving the agenda forward, we need to be pragmatic as well. So we'll consider both sides over time. As for the current portfolio, I think the portfolio is healthy. It's got a healthy combination of assets such as Compass as a gas distribution company. Those are very resilient assets. Their regulatory nature has to be resilient. And Vale also helped towards being more exposed to hard currencies and asset assets such as Moove and Raizen with a key future upside agenda based on the pipeline that's being executed or the strategic CapEx agenda.

考慮到資產的流動性，即使我們在推動議程方面具有建設性，我們也需要務實。因此，隨著時間的推移，我們會考慮雙方。就目前的投資組合而言，我認為該投資組合是健康的。它擁有健康的資產組合，例如作為天然氣分銷公司的 Compass。這些都是非常有彈性的資產。它們的監管性質必須具有彈性。淡水河谷還幫助更多地接觸硬通貨和 Moove 和 Raizen 等資產，並根據正在執行的管道或戰略資本支出議程製定了關鍵的未來上行議程。

So in broad terms, we're very happy with our portfolio mix. As I said earlier, I think what we have been doing at Cosan and at the invested companies is to keep an eye out for opportunities to expose our position to noncore assets, looking for partners in this challenging high interest rate scenario. But generally speaking, it's a very healthy portfolio with -- there are opportunities to recycle the portfolio at the HoldCo level and at the invested companies level. But we're very happy with the portfolio's quality but there are obviously opportunities to recycle it, and we should become more active when it comes to that. Thank you for your questions.

因此，從廣義上講，我們對我們的投資組合非常滿意。正如我之前所說，我認為我們在 Cosan 和被投資公司一直在做的就是密切關注將我們的頭寸暴露給非核心資產的機會，在這種充滿挑戰的高利率情況下尋找合作夥伴。但總的來說，這是一個非常健康的投資組合，在控股公司層級和被投資公司層級都有機會回收投資組合。但我們對投資組合的品質非常滿意，但顯然有機會回收它，我們應該在這方面變得更加積極。謝謝您的提問。

Thank you, Rodrigo. Could I ask another follow-up question, please? And considering the portfolio mix, where do you see Cosan 9 and 10, the intermediate holding companies? Is that a way to balance the OpCo's exposure profile or --?

謝謝你，羅德里戈。我可以問另一個後續問題嗎？考慮到投資組合，您如何看待中間控股公司 Cosan 9 和 10？這是平衡 OpCo 風險敞口的一種方式嗎？——？

Well, no. This is an equity structure. We haven't given any voting rights out to anyone. It's more to do with access to dividends. It's much more financial. It's not a direct divestment. We see it as a contribution to dilute risks from an equity perspective, not in terms to decrease exposure.

嗯，不。這是一種股權結構。我們沒有授予任何人任何投票權。這更多地與獲得股息有關。這更具財務意義。這不是直接撤資。我們認為，從股權角度來看，這是對稀釋風險的貢獻，而不是減少風險暴露。

Vicente Falanga, sell-side, Bradesco BBI.

Vicente Falanga，賣方，Bradesco BBI。

Thank you, Rodrigo. Let's start with Radar. We didn't have a mark-to-market effect this quarter. So looking at the company's net income, it was about [126 million]. So we're talking about 13%. Is this the metric we should be looking at? And if so, there seems to be still good returns even in this high interest rate scenario. What would be the cash yield that would accelerate selling land? And about Moove, could you give us some more detail about the strategy behind the margin exposure considering the strong results, but there's also been considerable working capital consumption. Are there two things related? And if not, is it seasonal? Can we expect that those things will be reverted this year? Thank you.

謝謝你，羅德里戈。讓我們從雷達開始。本季我們沒有按市值計價。所以看看公司的淨利潤，大約是[1.26 億]。所以我們談論的是 13%。這是我們應該關注的指標嗎？如果是這樣，即使在這種高利率的情況下，似乎仍然有良好的回報。能夠加速出售土地的現金收益是多少？關於 Moove，考慮到強勁的業績，您能否給我們提供更多有關保證金敞口背後的策略的詳細信息，但也有相當大的營運資本消耗。有兩件事相關嗎？如果不是，是季節性的嗎？我們可以期望這些事情今年會恢復嗎？謝謝。

Thanks, Vicente, for the questions. About Radar, let me mention a couple of points. Obviously, we do see some healthy yields, but our way of looking at it, obviously, yields are important. The company right now can generate cash and payout dividends. And looking forward, it can sustain the payment installments of the purchase all the way through to ‘26. So we're very comfortable with the dividends that will allow us to remain neutral, because the dividend will help us amortize the acquisition payments. But yield is a part of the equation, that's how we look at the business.

謝謝維森特提出問題。關於雷達，我想提幾點。顯然，我們確實看到了一些健康的收益率，但我們看待它的方式顯然是，收益率很重要。該公司目前可以產生現金並支付股息。展望未來，它可以將購買的分期付款維持到 26 英鎊。因此，我們對股息感到非常滿意，這將使我們保持中性，因為股息將幫助我們攤提收購付款。但收益率是等式的一部分，這就是我們看待業務的方式。

So let me take a step back and we announced this at the beginning of the year. We started managing the portfolio as a whole in an integrated fashion to help us learn and have more visibility of other areas, other strategies, because this is a rotation business, that's its nature, and you will be seeing that happen over time. So what we expect as shareholders is that this is a self-funded business. We're not going to increase our exposure in terms of additional equity. It should be -- continue to pay our dividend so that we can pay for the acquisition commitments and the crop rotation at Raizen is healthy.

讓我退後一步，我們在今年年初宣布了這一點。我們開始以綜合的方式管理整個投資組合，以幫助我們學習並更好地了解其他領域、其他策略，因為這是一項輪換業務，這就是它的本質，隨著時間的推移，你會看到這種情況發生。所以我們身為股東的期望是這是一個自籌資金的業務。我們不會增加額外股本的曝險。應該是——繼續支付我們的股息，以便我們能夠支付收購承諾，並且 Raizen 的輪作是健康的。

So yes, healthy yields, we have captured and served that wave like any other agricultural company, and the margins are looking even more constructive for next year. And now we want to be able to make that rotation to do what we did in the last 30% cycle. We're ahead of the curve, and we want to be positioned in new crops with new strategies before that cycle is over. So that's the strategy behind that.

所以，是的，健康的產量，我們像其他農業公司一樣抓住並服務了這一浪潮，明年的利潤率看起來更具建設性。現在我們希望能夠進行輪換以完成我們在過去 30% 週期中所做的事情。我們處於領先地位，我們希望在該週期結束之前以新策略定位新作物。這就是背後的策略。

As for Moove, we have a very clear and solid strategy. We need to target the right clients. If we think conceptually about the strategy, the company was a business underneath a major oil company, then it went under a retail business with lots of specificity. The lubes business within a traditional distribution business presents opportunity. So when possible, we can create a value agenda, which is what happened at Moove.

至於Moove，我們有一個非常清晰和堅實的策略。我們需要瞄準正確的客戶。如果我們從概念上考慮該策略，該公司是一家大型石油公司旗下的業務，然後是具有許多特殊性的零售業務。傳統分銷業務中的潤滑油業務提供了機會。因此，如果可能的話，我們可以創建一個價值議程，這就是 Moove 發生的事情。

In the integration process, especially the acquisition of PetroChoice, which is more recent that happened in 2022, the integration will accelerate the margin capture process. We've had even better results than we imagined when we made the acquisition, so we want to accelerate the value implementation agenda. Last year was the company's best historical year and we're very positive about this year. We should be delivering even better results than last year.

在整合過程中，特別是最近發生在2022年的PetroChoice收購，整合將加速獲利獲取過程。我們所取得的成果比收購時的想像還要好，因此我們希望加快價值實現議程。去年是公司史上最好的一年，我們對今年非常樂觀。我們應該會取得比去年更好的結果。

Now as for the working capital, it's a very cyclic business. We know that the second and the third quarter tend to be stronger, so that working capital fluctuation is natural. The fourth and the first quarter, there are scheduled downtimes. There are many things that take place that make this a cyclic business. And working capital will go back to normal levels over the year. There's a high organic cash conversion cycle. So yeah, working capital is cyclic by nature. Thank you for your question.

至於營運資金，這是週期性很強的業務。我們知道第二季和第三季往往會走強，因此營運資金波動是自然的。第四季和第一季都有預定的停機時間。有很多事情發生，使得這個行業成為一個週期性的行業。營運資金將在年內恢復到正常水準。有機現金轉換週期很高。所以，是的，營運資金本質上是循環的。謝謝你的問題。

Bruno Montanari, sell-side Morgan Stanley.

布魯諾‧蒙塔納裡 (Bruno Montanari)，賣方摩根士丹利。

Good morning, Rodrigo and Ana. Thank you for taking my questions. In terms of liability management within your preferred shares considering Vale's operation at the two intermediate holding companies. Is there any chance to rethink or restructure that operation so that you'd be able to have more dividends going into Cosan's holding company? And the second question, I know that your number one focus is on controlling, leveraging, increasing your debt service interest coverage. But considering the OpCos from the holding company point of view, what has been using up management's time the most? Thank you.

早安，羅德里戈和安娜。感謝您回答我的問題。在優先股的責任管理方面，考慮到淡水河谷在兩家中間控股公司的運作。是否有機會重新考慮或重組該業務，以便您能夠將更多股息分配給科桑的控股公司？第二個問題，我知道您的首要關注點是控制、槓桿化、增加償債利息覆蓋率。但從控股公司的角度考慮經營公司，什麼最消耗管理階層的時間？謝謝。

Thank you for the questions, Bruno. Well, as for the preferred shares, well, the structure will allow for that as of the fourth year. And in terms of access to dividends, based on the structure modeling, it tends to be very efficient because it matches the business dividend flows. It's a natural match. So obviously, we'll be monitoring that over time. We're always looking at potential opportunities. But right now, we have other less efficient debts, which are the target of liability management. So we're not focusing on bringing that structure forward. Even because of its equity structure, the payment is associated to the business payment. So it's a positive equity prospect.

謝謝你的提問，布魯諾。嗯，至於優先股，結構將允許從第四年開始。在獲得股息方面，基於結構建模，它往往非常有效，因為它與業務股息流相符。這是天生的搭配。顯然，我們將隨著時間的推移對其進行監控。我們一直在尋找潛在的機會。但現在我們還有其他效率較低的債務，這是負債管理的目標。因此，我們並不專注於推進該結構。即使由於其股權結構，付款也與業務付款相關。因此，這是一個積極的股票前景。

As for the businesses, well, generally speaking, the company's main focus is on where we have more CapEx considering the current interest rate scenario and for many reasons due to the fact that we know it's hard to execute on CapEx in Brazil, there are many challenges. So wherever we have a more robust CapEx agenda, that's where we need to spend more time, because it's more challenging. Now when we look at leveraging levels at the invested companies, they're all getting organized and getting ready to navigate the cycle.

至於業務，一般來說，考慮到當前的利率情況，公司的主要關注點是我們有更多資本支出的地方，並且出於多種原因，由於我們知道在巴西很難執行資本支出，因此有很多挑戰。因此，只要我們有更穩健的資本支出議程，我們就需要花更多時間，因為它更具挑戰性。現在，當我們觀察被投資公司的槓桿水平時，他們都在組織起來並準備好駕馭這個週期。

So that's it in broad terms. And obviously, as I said at the beginning when Luiz asked his question, the regulatory agenda also is time consuming. So we need to do it properly, we need to make sure it's right, it's organized and that takes time. We've talked a lot about Vale, but just to reiterate. It's a different investment to the other ones where we are in a controlling company position. So being able to replicate and re-strengthen our analysis ability also takes up time of management. So that's it. Thank you, Bruno, for your questions.

廣義來說就是這樣。顯然，正如我在路易斯提問時一開始所說的那樣，監管議程也很耗時。所以我們需要正確地做這件事，我們需要確保它是正確的、有組織的，這需要時間。我們已經談論了很多關於淡水河谷的事情，但只是重申。這是一項與我們處於控股公司地位的其他投資不同的投資。所以能夠複製和重新加強我們的分析能力也佔據了管理的時間。就是這樣了。謝謝布魯諾的提問。

Thiago Duarte, sell-side BTG Pactual.

Thiago Duarte，賣方 BTG Pactual。

Hello, good morning. Thank you. Hi, Rodrigo. Hi, Ana. Let me combine -- I mean, Rodrigo, you talked about many different things in your answers to the many different questions. So let me try and put the pieces together and come to a conclusion. Do you think that to get to a 1.522 coverage level as the guidance or as a level that you're comfortable with considering the burden that will represent to the holding company and the holding company's ability to pay out dividends. Do you think that, organically speaking, Moove’s IPO, assessing your stake at Vale and the dividend flows that you're considering, do you think that if nothing else is done, structurally speaking, you will be able to get level?

你好早安。謝謝。嗨，羅德里戈。嗨，安娜。讓我結合起來——我的意思是，羅德里戈，你在回答許多不同的問題時談到了許多不同的事情。因此，讓我嘗試將各個部分放在一起並得出結論。您是否認為達到 1.522 的覆蓋水平作為指導或作為您感到滿意的水平，考慮到控股公司的負擔以及控股公司支付股息的能力。您是否認為，從有機角度來看，Moove 的 IPO，評估您在淡水河谷的股份以及您正在考慮的股息流，您是否認為如果不做其他事情，從結構角度來看，您將能夠達到水平？

And if so, when will you reach that level? So that's the first part of my question. The second part is, in the recent past, I think just before you joined the group, you discussed the possibility of looking at the portfolio more broadly speaking and you mentioned that in a previous answer. You used to call it a permanent portfolio and a non-permanent portfolio. So you mentioned portfolio recycling. Up to what point are you considering that in addition to these more trivial moves such as the IPOs of a couple of companies?

如果是這樣，你什麼時候能達到那個水準？這是我問題的第一部分。第二部分是，在最近的過去，我認為就在您加入該小組之前，您討論了更廣泛地看待投資組合的可能性，並且您在之前的答案中提到了這一點。您過去稱其為永久投資組合和非永久投資組合。所以你提到了投資組合回收。除了這些更瑣碎的舉措（例如幾家公司的首次公開募股）之外，您考慮到什麼程度？

Thank you, Thiago, for your questions. I'll start with the first one. I mentioned many things that we're doing, adjusting our positions, the port, potentially listing assets. So that's a combination of organic and inorganic initiatives. I don't really have a time set for when we will do that by -- there are a number of variables to be considered. Some of the businesses are exposed to the commodity cycle, so that needs to be taken into consideration. So we don't have a set target in terms of timing, but it is a combination of organic and inorganic initiatives. I mentioned the port, for instance, adjusting our position size. All of those levers have to be taken into consideration.

謝謝蒂亞戈的提問。我將從第一個開始。我提到了我們正在做的很多事情，調整我們的部位、港口、可能列出的資產。所以這是有機和無機措施的結合。我確實沒有確定我們何時這樣做——有許多變數需要考慮。有些企業面臨商品週期的影響，因此需要考慮。因此，我們在時間方面沒有設定目標，但它是有機和無機措施的結合。例如，我提到了港口，調整我們的部位規模。所有這些槓桿都必須考慮在內。

As for the portfolio, we need to consider the scenario. It's not just about what the company is going through. It's what the company is going through and the current scenario. Looking at the last few years, we have made some major commitments across the portfolio, and that requires management focus, shareholder focus. We need to make sure that we are executing not only business as usual on a daily basis but the different cycles. There have been some considerable changes. We don't have to go too far back. If we go back three or four months, we were talking about an interest rate. And now we're 200 basis points below, so that's considerable if you have significant CapEx levels.

至於投資組合，我們需要考慮場景。這不僅僅是關於公司正在經歷的事情。這就是公司正在經歷的事情和當前的情況。回顧過去幾年，我們在整個投資組合中做出了一些重大承諾，這需要管理層和股東的關注。我們需要確保我們不僅每天照常執行業務，而且執行不同的週期。發生了一些相當大的變化。我們不必走太遠。如果我們回顧三、四個月，我們談論的是利率。現在我們已經低了 200 個基點，所以如果您的資本支出水準很高，那麼這個數字就相當可觀了。

So I think it's a combination of considering what we can do well, but it's also a matter of a more challenging macro scenario. If you think about the current macro scenario this year, at the beginning of the year, we were talking about five reductions in the American interest rate. And now is it going to be one, is it going to be two, is it going to be none? And the same applies to the Brazilian market during the last interest committee meeting, that's exactly what we saw.

所以我認為這既是考慮我們能做好什麼的結合，也是一個更具挑戰性的宏觀場景的問題。如果你想想今年當前的宏觀形勢，年初時我們談論的是美國五次降息。現在它會是一個，會是兩個，還是會沒有？在上次利益委員會會議期間，這也適用於巴西市場，這正是我們所看到的。

So that has to go into the equation. We need to be able to execute things well. But considering the macro scenario, there's no point in keeping the same plans if the scenario is changing. So that's what we need to consider. We need to think about what we can do and do well simultaneously but in a more challenging macro scenario. That's it. Thank you for your questions.

所以這必須納入等式中。我們需要能夠很好地執行事情。但考慮到宏觀情況，如果情況發生變化，保持相同的計劃是沒有意義的。所以這就是我們需要考慮的。我們需要思考在更具挑戰性的宏觀情境下，我們能同時做些什麼並做得好。就是這樣。謝謝您的提問。

This concludes the Q&A session. I will now turn it over to Mr. Rodrigo Araujo for his closing remarks.

問答環節到此結束。現在請羅德里戈·阿勞霍先生作總結發言。

Thanks, everyone, for joining us on this earnings release call. Thank you for the questions. Myself, An,a and the whole team, financial team at Cosan, are here if you have any follow-up questions. Thanks, and see you next quarter.

感謝大家參加我們的財報電話會議。謝謝你的提問。如果您有任何後續問題，我本人、An,a 以及整個團隊（Cosan 的財務團隊）都會在這裡。謝謝，下季見。

Cosan's first quarter 2024 earnings release video conference is now concluded. For further questions, please contact the Investor Relations department. Thank you so much for joining us, and have a great day.

Cosan 2024 年第一季財報發布視訊會議現已結束。如有其他問題，請聯絡投資者關係部門。非常感謝您加入我們，祝您有美好的一天。