Credit Suisse Group AG (CS) 2022 Q4 法說會逐字稿

Good morning. This is the conference operator. Welcome, and thank you for joining Credit Suisse Group's Fourth Quarter and Full Year 2022 Results Media Conference Call. (Operator Instructions) And the conference is recorded. (Operator Instructions).

早上好。這是會議接線員。歡迎並感謝您參加瑞士信貸集團 2022 年第四季度和全年業績媒體電話會議。 （操作員說明）並記錄會議。 （操作員說明）。

I will now turn the conference over to Cindy Leggett-Flynn, Group Head, Corporate Communications. Please go ahead, Cindy.

我現在將會議轉交給企業傳播集團負責人 Cindy Leggett-Flynn。請繼續，辛迪。

Thank you, operator, and thank you, everyone, for joining us today. Before we begin, let me remind you of the important cautionary statements at the beginning of the analyst update deck shown earlier today, including in relation to forward-looking statements, non-GAAP financial measures and Basel III disclosures. For a detailed discussion of our results, I refer you to the Credit Suisse fourth quarter 2022 earnings release published this morning.

謝謝接線員，也謝謝大家今天加入我們。在我們開始之前，讓我提醒您今天早些時候顯示的分析師更新平台開頭的重要警告聲明，包括與前瞻性聲明、非公認會計原則財務措施和巴塞爾協議 III 披露有關的聲明。有關我們結果的詳細討論，請參閱瑞士信貸今天上午發布的 2022 年第四季度收益報告。

Let me remind you that our 2022 annual report and audited financial statements for the year will be published on or around March 9, 2023. On the line with me today are Ulrich Korner, our Group CEO; and Dixit Joshi, our Group CFO. Ulrich will make some opening remarks, after which, we will take your questions.

讓我提醒您，我們的 2022 年年度報告和經審計的年度財務報表將於 2023 年 3 月 9 日前後發布。今天與我在線的是我們的集團首席執行官 Ulrich Korner；和我們的集團首席財務官 Dixit Joshi。 Ulrich 將做一些開場白，然後我們將回答您的問題。

And I will now hand over to Ulrich.

現在我將交給 Ulrich。

Thank you, Cindy. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you all for joining today. We greatly appreciate your participation and engagement. I know that most of you were on the analyst call this morning, so let me briefly summarize the key points from my perspective. 2022 was an extremely challenging year for Credit Suisse with the group posting a net loss of CHF 7.3 billion. Importantly, it was also the year which marked the beginning of the important and necessary transformation of our organization.

謝謝你，辛迪。女士們，先生們，感謝大家今天的加入。我們非常感謝您的參與和參與。我知道今天早上你們中的大多數人都參加了分析師電話會議，所以讓我從我的角度簡要總結一下要點。 2022 年對瑞士信貸來說是極具挑戰性的一年，該集團淨虧損 73 億瑞士法郎。重要的是，這一年也標誌著我們組織開始進行重要且必要的轉型。

On October 27, we presented a targeted plan to create the new Credit Suisse, a simpler, more focused bank built around client needs. Today, we reconfirm all of the targets we announced in October. Our new Executive Board remains fully focused on the successful execution of our strategic transformation and the actions we have taken so far, strengthened our business momentum in 2023 and beyond.

10 月 27 日，我們提出了創建新瑞士信貸的目標計劃，這是一家圍繞客戶需求打造的更簡單、更專注的銀行。今天，我們再次確認我們在 10 月份宣布的所有目標。我們新的執行委員會仍然完全專注於成功執行我們的戰略轉型和我們迄今為止採取的行動，加強了我們在 2023 年及以後的業務勢頭。

Our teams continue to work relentlessly on serving our clients. Since October, we have proactively engaged with more than 10,000 Wealth Management clients and over 50,000 clients in the Swiss Bank. We are seeing the first positive signs from our comprehensive global initiatives to regain deposits as well as (inaudible) management. In January, we saw deposit inflows at the group level, in Wealth Management and APAC as well as net new assets in Asia Pacific and the Swiss Bank. Importantly, clients remain overwhelmingly supportive, and we remain very thankful for that.

我們的團隊繼續堅持不懈地為我們的客戶服務。自 10 月以來，我們已積極接觸超過 10,000 名財富管理客戶和超過 50,000 名瑞士銀行客戶。我們正在從我們全面的全球舉措中看到第一個積極跡象，以重新獲得存款和（聽不清）管理。 1 月份，我們看到集團層面的存款流入，包括財富管理和亞太地區，以及亞太地區和瑞士銀行的淨新資產。重要的是，客戶仍然非常支持，對此我們仍然非常感激。

We have made significant progress in the transformation and restructuring of the Investment Bank. We already completed the first closing of our transaction with Apollo, that, along with other actions taken contributed to an overall reduction in Securitized Product assets by around USD 35 billion since the end of the third quarter. This is approximately 2/3 of our targeted reduction of $55 billion. In the fourth quarter, we reduced risk-weighted assets and leverage exposure by about $5 billion and around $15 billion, respectively, reflecting proactive deleveraging and derisking measures in the Non-Core Unit. That's ahead of the target run rate we set in October.

投行轉型重組取得重大進展。我們已經完成了與 Apollo 的第一筆交易，加上採取的其他行動，自第三季度末以來，證券化產品資產總體減少了約 350 億美元。這大約是我們 550 億美元削減目標的 2/3。第四季度，我們將風險加權資產和槓桿敞口分別減少了約 50 億美元和約 150 億美元，反映了非核心部門積極的去槓桿化和去風險化措施。這高於我們在 10 月份設定的目標運行率。

Our goal is to carve out CS First Boston as a distinct leading independent Capital Markets and Advisory-led business. And we are pleased to announce the acquisition of the Investment Banking business of M. Klein & Company. This is a significant step forward in realizing CS First Boston's growth potential and creating value for our shareholders.

我們的目標是將 CS First Boston 打造成一家獨特的領先獨立資本市場和諮詢主導企業。我們很高興地宣布收購 M. Klein & Company 的投資銀行業務。這是在實現 CS First Boston 的增長潛力和為我們的股東創造價值方面向前邁出的重要一步。

Let me outline the strategic rationale and the importance of the acquisition of M. Klein & Company. The acquisition strengthens Credit Suisse's advisory capabilities and accelerates the creation of an advisory-led CS First Boston. At the same time, it adds significant revenue opportunities for Credit Suisse. The transaction is at a single-digit price to earnings multiple and is expected to be earnings accretive with an anticipated impact on the CET1 ratio of less than 10 basis points.

讓我概述一下收購 M. Klein & Company 的戰略依據和重要性。此次收購增強了瑞士信貸的諮詢能力，並加速了以諮詢為主導的 CS First Boston 的創建。同時，它為瑞士信貸增加了重要的收入機會。該交易的市盈率是個位數，預計將增加盈利，預計對 CET1 比率的影響將小於 10 個基點。

Since our strategy announcement in October, we have strengthened our capital position by raising around CHF 4 billion of equity. We have also completed around CHF 10 billion of debt issuances whilst making tangible progress in deleveraging and derisking the group further. This should reduce our funding needs in the future.

自 10 月宣布戰略以來，我們通過籌集約 40 億瑞士法郎的股權加強了我們的資本狀況。我們還完成了約 100 億瑞士法郎的債券發行，同時在去槓桿化和進一步降低集團風險方面取得了切實進展。這應該會減少我們未來的資金需求。

Our cost transformation is well underway. As previously disclosed, actions initiated in the fourth quarter represent approximately 80% of our 2023 cost base reduction target of about CHF 1.2 billion, and we are on track to achieve our 2025 target of CHF 2.5 billion. I want to make it absolutely clear that me and my management team are relentless in driving our cost base lower.

我們的成本轉型正在順利進行。如前所述，第四季度啟動的行動約占我們 2023 年約 12 億瑞士法郎成本基礎削減目標的 80%，我們有望實現 25 億瑞士法郎的 2025 年目標。我想明確表示，我和我的管理團隊一直在不懈地降低我們的成本基礎。

To sum up, we are well advanced on our journey to create new Credit Suisse, a simpler, more focused Credit Suisse built around client needs. We have a new Executive Board with relevant experience and a strong track record of execution in similar situations. We are building a unified culture from the top of the organization with a strong focus on risk management, collaboration and accountability. We have acted decisively to address the impact of the outflows experienced in the fourth quarter, and we have seen progress in terms of positive deposit and asset inflows in most areas of the bank in January 2023.

總而言之，我們在創建新瑞士信貸的旅程中取得了長足進步，這是一家圍繞客戶需求而建立的更簡單、更專注的瑞士信貸。我們有一個新的執行委員會，具有相關經驗並在類似情況下具有良好的執行記錄。我們正在組織高層建立統一的文化，重點關注風險管理、協作和問責制。我們已果斷採取行動應對第四季度資金流出的影響，2023 年 1 月銀行大部分地區的存款和資產流入正數方面取得了進展。

We are also making progress with the carve out of CS First Boston and are creating a more focused Markets businesses that will deliver innovative solutions and products for our Wealth Management and for our institutional clients. As mentioned, we reconfirm all the targets we announced in October. In short, we are determined to make this transformation a success, restore trust with all stakeholders and ultimately create sustainable value for our shareholders.

我們還在分拆 CS First Boston 方面取得進展，並正在創建更專注的市場業務，為我們的財富管理和機構客戶提供創新的解決方案和產品。如前所述，我們再次確認我們在 10 月份宣布的所有目標。簡而言之，我們決心使這一轉型取得成功，恢復所有利益相關者的信任，並最終為我們的股東創造可持續的價值。

With that, I hand it over back to Cindy.

有了這個，我把它交還給辛迪。

Thanks, Ulrich. And we'll now turn to the Q&A part of this conference. Operator, can we go ahead and open the line?

謝謝，烏爾里希。現在我們將轉向本次會議的問答部分。接線員，我們可以繼續打開線路嗎？

(Operator Instructions) Our first question comes from the line of Holger Alich with Handelszeitung.

（操作員說明）我們的第一個問題來自 Handelszeitung 的 Holger Alich。

I registered myself just 3 questions, if I may. The first one I asked this morning, but the answer didn't satisfy me. Mr. Korner, you said you have an investor who is ready to put $500 million into Credit Suisse First Boston. This morning, I didn't see anything on that. And in the press release, there is no mention on that investor. What happened to this investor? Did this investor (inaudible) back, first question.

如果可以的話，我只註冊了 3 個問題。我今天早上問的第一個，但答案並不令我滿意。 Korner 先生，您說您有一位投資者準備向瑞士信貸第一波士頓投資 5 億美元。今天早上，我沒有看到任何東西。在新聞稿中，沒有提到那個投資者。這個投資人怎麼了？這個投資者（聽不清）回來了嗎，第一個問題。

Secondly, in the presentation, in the earnings release, you are referring to the future relations between Credit Suisse First Boston and the Credit Suisse. It's on Slide #9, and [there's said] in this time line, CS First Boston (inaudible) independent business, why retraining strong relationship with Credit Suisse? Could you detail a little bit more concretely what will be once after the IPO of the CSFB will be this relation? Will Credit Suisse will fund the whole entity? Or what will it looks like? Some color on that would be very interesting to have.

其次，在報告中，在收益發布中，你指的是瑞士信貸第一波士頓與瑞士信貸之間的未來關係。它在幻燈片 #9 上，[據說] 在這個時間線中，CS First Boston（聽不清）獨立業務，為什麼要重新培訓與瑞士信貸的牢固關係？能具體說一下，CSFB IPO 之後，這個關係是什麼？瑞士信貸是否會為整個實體提供資金？或者它會是什麼樣子？有一些顏色會很有趣。

Thirdly, Wealth Management. You said you're turning around the corner. Money is slightly coming back, which is encouraging. But of course, the base is much lower than last year. And I think when analysts asked that too, are you in need of a new cost cutting round in Wealth Management to adapt the machinery to the smaller Wealth Management operation? Or what is there you're thinking? That's it.

第三，財富管理。你說你在拐角處轉身。資金略有回升，這令人鼓舞。但當然，基數比去年低得多。而且我認為當分析師也問這個問題時，您是否需要在財富管理方面進行新一輪的成本削減以使機器適應較小的財富管理業務？或者你在想什麼？就是這樣。

Thank you very much. All very good questions, if I may say so. With respect to the investor mentioned end of October in CSFB, look, you need to think about like a journey getting CSFB on its own feet. By the way, this investor is still very interested and there are several more where we are in very close contract as we speak. But we saw -- we do it step by step. So first step was to bring in the end client and company close that deal, which we did, as announced today. And now we take it from there and see how many -- because there is clear interest how many investors can and would we like to let in at which amounts and so on. This is something where we need a bit more time now, but we will execute on that going forward. So nothing has changed in terms of the direction of travel here.

非常感謝。所有非常好的問題，如果我可以這樣說的話。關於 10 月底在 CSFB 提到的投資者，看，你需要考慮讓 CSFB 站起來的旅程。順便說一句，這位投資者仍然非常感興趣，而且在我們說話的時候，還有幾個我們的合同非常緊密。但我們看到了——我們一步一步地做到了。因此，第一步是讓最終客戶和公司完成交易，正如我們今天宣布的那樣。現在我們從那裡開始，看看有多少——因為很明顯有興趣有多少投資者可以並且我們願意讓多少數量等等。這是我們現在需要更多時間的事情，但我們將繼續執行。因此，就此處的行進方向而言，沒有任何變化。

In terms of long-term partnership between new Credit Suisse and CSFB, that's a pretty simple thing in my eyes. So think about the journey of CSFB like whatever it is at the end of the day, we will see a 2 years plus journey to get CSFB on its own feet. And as you were alluding to doing the IPO, what we try to say here, and I think that is important to understand for all our colleagues working in Credit Suisse today and in future, new Credit Suisse was also CSFB. Now this is -- this is one firm. These are our colleagues, which work together, depending on how long they are here for decades. The ties between new Credit Suisse and CSFB are obviously and for all these reasons, super deep and will stay super deep, and that's what we try to say. Because if you look at our offering, for example, look into Asia. And with our super strong ultra-high net worth client relationships, you need a very, very strong Investment Banking capabilities to serve them at the best as we do it today. So that's why I'm saying, and therefore, this will always be a very, very strong partnership independently of the ownership of new Credit Suisse into CSFB. That is anyway majority as we speak and also after IPO, in my eyes, that can go into minority, that can go even to 0. But independently of that, the remarks around the partnership are absolutely valid.

就新瑞士信貸和 CSFB 之間的長期合作關係而言，在我看來，這是一件非常簡單的事情。因此，想想 CSFB 的旅程，無論它在一天結束時是什麼，我們將看到 2 年多的旅程才能讓 CSFB 站穩腳跟。當你提到進行首次公開募股時，我們在這裡想說的是，我認為對於我們今天和未來在瑞士信貸工作的所有同事來說，理解這一點很重要，新的瑞士信貸也是 CSFB。現在這是——這是一家公司。這些是我們的同事，他們一起工作，這取決於他們在這裡待了幾十年的時間。由於所有這些原因，新瑞士信貸和 CSFB 之間的聯繫顯然非常深，並將保持非常深，這就是我們試圖說的。因為如果你看看我們的產品，例如，看看亞洲。憑藉我們超強的超高淨值客戶關係，您需要非常非常強大的投資銀行業務能力來為他們提供最好的服務，就像我們今天所做的那樣。所以這就是為什麼我要說的，因此，這將永遠是一個非常非常強大的合作夥伴關係，獨立於新瑞士信貸對 CSFB 的所有權。無論如何，在我們所說的以及首次公開募股之後，在我看來，這可以成為少數，甚至可以達到 0。但獨立於此，關於合夥企業的言論是絕對有效的。

Coming back to the Wealth Management question, I think a lot of that was discussed in the earlier call. Again, the cost base question, in particular, which you had is the cost actions we are taking in Wealth Management are part of the overall group cost transformation program. We have a headcount reduction in Wealth Management in the fourth quarter 2022 by already 6%. This is all in line with the overall plan. And as I said earlier as well, the plan is clearly to further lower the cost base in Wealth Management, and therefore, also make it, so to speak, more productive again. So we do not look at what has happened in last fall only. Obviously, that is something which we -- as everyone who behaves a little bit entrepreneurial would deal with, but it's not the only driver going forward at all. So the driver going forward is our very, very strong Wealth Management, which we like to build, to grow. And obviously, the assets we lost, we like definitely, as I said this morning as well regain. I think that's what we are doing here and very forcefully.

回到財富管理問題，我認為在之前的電話會議中討論了很多。同樣，成本基礎問題，特別是您提出的，我們在財富管理中採取的成本行動是整個集團成本轉型計劃的一部分。 2022 年第四季度，我們財富管理部門的員工人數已經減少了 6%。這一切都符合總體規劃。正如我之前所說，該計劃顯然是為了進一步降低財富管理的成本基礎，因此，可以說，也使其再次變得更有成效。所以我們不要只看去年秋天發生的事情。顯然，這是我們——每個表現得有點企業家精神的人都會處理的事情，但這根本不是唯一的推動力。因此，前進的動力是我們非常非常強大的財富管理，我們希望建立它來發展。顯然，我們失去的資產，我們肯定會喜歡，正如我今天早上所說的那樣，我們也會重新獲得。我認為這就是我們在這裡所做的，而且非常有力。

The next question comes from the line of Owen Walker with Financial Times.

下一個問題來自《金融時報》歐文沃克的專欄。

Just on the flows, I know you've talked quite a lot about this already today, but I was just looking for clarification of a couple of points. One is, you've mentioned there's been a kind of return to flows in certain areas of the group. But can you be specific about whether we're seeing net new assets at a group level or outflows at a group level in January? Can you talk about -- I know you're asked earlier in the analyst call about the client outreach program. But I was wondering if you could talk about specific measures that's taking other than the communication with those clients, what sort of deals you're offering to bring people back on board? And then you've also mentioned that the clients aren't closing accounts. But do you have any numbers in terms of how many have closed accounts and where those closures have been?

就流程而言，我知道你今天已經談了很多，但我只是想澄清幾點。一個是，你提到過在集團的某些領域出現了一種流動的回歸。但您能否具體說明 1 月份我們是看到集團層面的淨新資產還是集團層面的資金流出？你能談談——我知道你在早些時候的分析師電話會議上被問及客戶外展計劃。但我想知道你是否可以談談除了與這些客戶的溝通之外正在採取的具體措施，你提供什麼樣的交易來讓人們重新加入？然後你還提到客戶沒有關閉賬戶。但是，您是否有關於關閉帳戶的數量以及這些關閉的位置的任何數字？

Sure, Owen, and thanks for the questions. So as you would [really] expect, we do not give a net new asset figure for single months like January, but I think the direction of travel hopefully and where we are after last year came through hopefully very clearly, I would say. And again, we said -- also as a guidance, we said also the group, Wealth Management globally, Asia Pac, what have you, is positive on deposits. And we did that consciously because as we both know, deposits is probably the assets, so to say, which [work] first, but which also have the opportunity to come back first. That's why we gave that guidance.

當然，歐文，謝謝你的提問。因此，正如您 [真正] 所期望的那樣，我們不會像 1 月份那樣給出單個月份的淨新資產數字，但我認為希望旅行的方向以及去年之後我們所處的位置非常清楚，我會說。再一次，我們說——作為指導，我們也說集團、全球財富管理、亞太地區，你有什麼，對存款持積極態度。我們是有意識地這樣做的，因為我們都知道，存款可能是資產，可以說，它首先 [work]，但也有機會首先回來。這就是我們給出該指導的原因。

With respect to the client outreach program, as I said, unprecedented at least from what I have seen and heard here out of Credit Suisse. And the most important thing was, and you are fully aware of, and I know that. And we were not in a situation in October to really talk specifically about what we are doing, where we are also in terms of strength when it comes to the capital base and so on. And you also know very well that the information which triggered this event, so to say, were completely infactual -- incorrect information. So that was the very difficult situation in October. So we used the time, so to say, next that we did other things to ramp up that outreach program, which we immediately started at October 27. And what we did in these outreaches and obviously, everyone is, so to speak, my front-end colleagues was participating, including the whole management, including myself, every day, so to say. And what we did is, on the one hand, explaining what is right and what is wrong? Where are we? What are we doing? What is the strategy going forward? And why does that lead into a much more stable, much more focused and much more profitable new Credit Suisse? That is the one thing. And then obviously, if you have the chance to get time with all these -- again, on the [management] side more than 10,000 clients, you use the time. So if you have explained what should be explained, you have time to discuss business going forward and so on. And that's, I think, what we all did during that phase.

關於客戶外展計劃，正如我所說，至少從我在瑞士信貸的所見所聞來看，這是前所未有的。最重要的是，你完全清楚，我也知道。而且我們在 10 月份並沒有真正具體談論我們在做什麼，我們在資本基礎等方面的實力。而且您也非常清楚觸發此事件的信息可以說是完全不符合事實的——不正確的信息。這就是 10 月份非常困難的情況。所以我們利用這段時間，可以說，接下來我們做了其他事情來加強我們在 10 月 27 日立即開始的外展計劃。我們在這些外展中所做的，顯然，每個人，可以說，我的前線-可以說，每天都有同事參與，包括整個管理層，包括我自己。我們所做的是，一方面，解釋什麼是對的，什麼是錯的？我們在哪裡？我們在做什麼？未來的策略是什麼？為什麼這會導致更穩定、更專注和更有利可圖的新瑞士信貸？這是一回事。然後很明顯，如果你有機會花時間與所有這些人打交道——同樣，在 [管理] 方面，超過 10,000 名客戶，你會利用這些時間。因此，如果您已經解釋了應該解釋的內容，您就有時間討論未來的業務等等。我認為，這就是我們在那個階段所做的一切。

And help me with the third question. What was the third question?

並幫我解決第三個問題。第三個問題是什麼？

The third question was on -- yes, in terms of numbers of clients who have actually closed their accounts and where those might have been?

第三個問題是——是的，根據實際關閉賬戶的客戶數量以及這些賬戶可能在哪裡？

That's why I said the 98% of our clients remain with us. And I think so there's really -- and that's, I would say, a very, very strong message if you think it's you because you have normal -- you have a very normal attrition. And what we are seeing here is, I don't know, either very normal attrition or even below normal attrition. So that's a very, very strong signal to the organization and to Credit Suisse. And this is very, very supportive for all of us and for Credit Suisse, I think.

這就是為什麼我說我們 98% 的客戶會留在我們這裡。而且我認為確實有 - 我會說，如果你認為是你因為你有正常的 - 你有非常正常的減員，這是一個非常非常強烈的信息。我不知道，我們在這裡看到的是非常正常的流失，甚至低於正常流失。因此，這對組織和瑞士信貸來說是一個非常非常強烈的信號。我認為，這對我們所有人和瑞士信貸都非常非常支持。

The next question comes from the line of Jakob Blume with Handelsblatt.

下一個問題來自 Jakob Blume 與 Handelsblatt 的對話。

I would also try and get a more glimpse about the client outreach program. Is there any number that you can say that you are willing to sacrifice in Wealth Management PBT to regain deposits and assets under management? And then I have a second question on headcount reduction. I don't know I have in mind that you wanted to reduce 2,700 employees by the end of quarter 4. And I'm just counting like 1,200, I don't know if I'm correct with these numbers. But yes, if not -- correct me if I'm wrong, or are you behind on sort of headcount reduction? Or have you -- is there also intermediate hiring? These are my questions.

我也會嘗試更多地了解客戶外展計劃。有多少是您願意犧牲理財PBT換回存款和管理資產的？然後我有第二個關於裁員的問題。我不知道你是否想在第 4 季度末減少 2,700 名員工。我只是數了 1,200 人，我不知道我對這些數字是否正確。但是，是的，如果不是——如果我錯了請糾正我，或者你們在裁員方面落後了嗎？或者你有 - 是否也有中級招聘？這些是我的問題。

Okay. Jakob, thanks. Let me take the first question first. So to say -- it's hard to say. I mean everyone wants to know that, including myself, we may say so, how fast is the money coming back. Based on all the discussions I had, and I'm not sure if all of my colleagues would subscribe to that, but this is my experience from the last 2 or 3 months, basically. I would say there are principal 3 groups of clients. The first group, pretty small one, which came back with assets and so on very quickly. So after the last earnings announcement, strategy update, the first one came back because they said, look that makes tons of [sense], and we believe in that transformation and so on. Pretty small one, I would say.

好的。雅各布，謝謝。我先回答第一個問題。所以說——很難說。我的意思是每個人都想知道，包括我自己，我們可以這麼說，錢回來的速度有多快。根據我進行的所有討論，我不確定我的所有同事是否都會同意，但這基本上是我過去 2 或 3 個月的經驗。我會說主要有 3 組客戶。第一個小組，很小的一個，很快就帶著資產等回來了。因此，在上一次收益公告、戰略更新之後，第一個回來了，因為他們說，看起來很有意義，我們相信這種轉變等等。很小的一個，我會說。

There is a second group, which I personally believe in is a very large one, which said, look, let me look a little bit more to let you go through capital raise, which we did, as you know, and then I'm coming back step by step. And I think that is what we are seeing now next to all the efforts, which we have taken. And there might be a third group which says, look, let me look a little bit longer in terms of how you execute are really doing this time, what you said, which is, by the way, very fast, and I'm not nervous at all about that. So in this sense, that makes it a bit hard to say how fast will the money come back. Having said that, if I talk to my Wealth Management colleagues, they are totally convinced that we bring back all the money lost. And obviously, that and then the other things which we are doing will lead back Wealth Management into a very profitable growth path. Dixit, do you want to take the second one?

還有第二組，我個人認為這是一個非常大的組，他們說，看，讓我多看一點，讓你通過融資，正如你所知，我們做到了，然後我一步步回來。我認為這就是我們現在所看到的，以及我們所做的所有努力。可能還有第三組人說，看，讓我再看一下你這次的執行方式，你說的，順便說一句，非常快，我不是對此很緊張。所以從這個意義上說，很難說這筆錢能多快回來。話雖如此，如果我與我的財富管理同事交談，他們完全相信我們會把所有損失的錢都拿回來。顯然，那件事以及我們正在做的其他事情將使財富管理重新回到一條非常有利可圖的增長道路上。迪克西特，你要拿第二個嗎？

Yes, Jakob. I'll just comment on the headcount. To answer your question, we're on track or ahead of pace. We moved really quickly, as you know, post October 27 to execute on our headcount cuts. And the net reduction in employees in the fourth quarter is around 4%. And so what you can see is we're well on track and ahead of meeting those targets.

是的，雅各布。我只會評論人數。為了回答您的問題，我們正在步入正軌或領先一步。如您所知，我們在 10 月 27 日之後採取了非常迅速的行動來執行我們的裁員計劃。而四季度員工淨減幅在4%左右。因此，您可以看到，我們正在步入正軌並領先於實現這些目標。

The next question comes from the line of [Natalie] (inaudible).

下一個問題來自 [Natalie]（聽不清）。

I would like to talk about bonuses. You said you're going to cut the [full of] money for the bonus by 50%. If you could give us some indication of how this will apply to different levels of employees and including (inaudible) senior management? And why you took that decision? And if [you had not heard] that your employees have been through quite a (inaudible) the past 2 years. I mean -- isn't that going to discourage them? And you said that it could interfere with your efforts to try to improve the business at Credit Suisse?

我想談談獎金。你說你要削減 50% 的獎金 [full of] 錢。您是否可以向我們說明這將如何適用於不同級別的員工，包括（聽不清）高級管理人員？你為什麼做出那個決定？如果 [您沒有聽說] 您的員工在過去 2 年中經歷了很多（聽不清）。我的意思是——這不會讓他們氣餒嗎？你說這可能會干擾你努力改善瑞士信貸的業務？

Okay, [Natalie], thank you very much for the question. Good question. As you said, we cut the bonus by 50%, you would expect that with the performance like last year. We spent quite some time exactly on your question in preparation of that bonus round. And looking particular at the different levels of the organization, as you were alluding to. So in January, you can say they hit. And everyone in the organization qualifies, so to say, for variable compensation or bonus. So the hit senior management takes in that round is, on average, much more significant than other layers in the organization, and I think that's the right way to look at it in terms of who can influence what. And on the other hand, we wanted to make sure, even in difficult years like that, that we can keep all our good colleagues and traveling with us into new Credit Suisse. With respect to the Group Executive Board, the Group Executive Board will not receive any variable compensation for 2022.

好的，[Natalie]，非常感謝你提出這個問題。好問題。正如你所說，我們將獎金削減了 50%，你會期望與去年一樣的表現。在準備那輪獎金時，我們花了相當多的時間來解決您的問題。正如您所暗示的那樣，在組織的不同級別上特別關注。所以在一月份，你可以說他們成功了。可以說，組織中的每個人都有資格獲得可變薪酬或獎金。因此，平均而言，高級管理層在那一輪中受到的打擊比組織中的其他層級要重要得多，我認為這是從誰可以影響什麼的角度來看待它的正確方法。另一方面，我們希望確保，即使在那樣困難的歲月裡，我們也能留住我們所有的好同事，並與我們一起進入新的瑞士信貸。關於集團執行委員會，集團執行委員會將不會在 2022 年獲得任何可變薪酬。

And how would you compensate that for after because you are also doing a quite serious job. I think you must spend quite a lot of time working on getting Credit Suisse back on its feet. How would you get compensated over time if you are not getting any bonus this year?

之後你會如何補償，因為你也在做一份相當認真的工作。我認為你必須花很多時間努力讓瑞士信貸重新站起來。如果您今年沒有獲得任何獎金，您將如何獲得補償？

That's a good question, I believe, a good question for our Board. But just let me say (inaudible) talk about myself. I mean, if you produce such a loss, I would not expect any bonus at all. Just to be clear. Even though I must say this is something maybe for you to reflect, I must say, 8 of 11 colleagues on the Executive Board are since -- new since the beginning of 2022. So the point I'm trying to make is they do nothing else. And believe me, this is rather 7 days than 6 days a week. They do nothing else than getting this transformation done and getting Credit Suisse back where it should belong. And therefore, this is very tough for them. And I'm tremendously grateful to them for what they all do for the organization. But we had this discussion at length within the team and the whole team feels completely convinced that this is the right decision for the team.

我認為，這是一個很好的問題，對我們的董事會來說是一個很好的問題。但讓我說（聽不清）談談我自己。我的意思是，如果你產生這樣的損失，我根本不會期待任何獎金。只是為了清楚。儘管我必須說這可能會讓你反思，但我必須說，執行委員會的 11 位同事中有 8 位是自 2022 年初以來新來的。所以我想說的是他們什麼都不做別的。相信我，這是每週 7 天而不是 6 天。除了完成轉型並讓瑞士信貸回到它應有的位置之外，他們什麼也沒做。因此，這對他們來說非常艱難。我非常感謝他們為組織所做的一切。但是我們在團隊內部進行了長時間的討論，整個團隊都完全相信這是團隊的正確決定。

The next question comes from the line of Steve Slater with IFR.

下一個問題來自 Steve Slater 的 IFR。

I had a follow-up to the first question actually. In October, you said it was a hard commitment of $500 million investment in CS First Boston. So can I clarify that has gone and is no longer there? And related to that, the reports are that you are seeking $500 million for CS First Boston in a 5-year exchangeable debt security. Is that the plan? Is that the sort of level of investment you're looking for? And can you give some guidance on when you are thinking about an IPO? Is 2024 the right time to be thinking about that?

實際上，我對第一個問題進行了跟進。 10 月份，你說這是對 CS First Boston 投資 5 億美元的硬性承諾。那麼我可以澄清一下，它已經消失並且不再存在了嗎？與此相關的是，有報導稱您正在為 CS First Boston 尋求 5 億美元的 5 年期可交換債務證券。是這個計劃嗎？這是您正在尋找的那種投資水平嗎？您能否就何時考慮 IPO 提供一些指導？ 2024 年是考慮這個問題的合適時機嗎？

Thank you very much. I mean the hard commitment is to me, commitment if somebody really commits to do that, and that was the case. It's still the case. That's why I said it's still part of the round we are in with several others, highly interested investors. In terms of amount, and that's exactly why I said before, we wanted to conclude the acquisition of M. Klein & Company, which we did. And we will now figure out what is in total -- and because that's obvious for obvious reasons important, what is in total the amount of third-party capital, which we would like to see in such a round. This is [work] which we finalized now and over the next, whatever, couple of weeks and months.

非常感謝。我的意思是對我來說是艱難的承諾，如果有人真的承諾這樣做，情況就是這樣。現在依然如此。這就是為什麼我說它仍然是我們與其他幾個非常感興趣的投資者進行的回合的一部分。就金額而言，這正是我之前所說的原因，我們希望完成對 M. Klein & Company 的收購，我們做到了。我們現在將弄清楚總數是多少——由於顯而易見的重要原因，這很明顯，第三方資本的總數是多少，我們希望在這一輪中看到。這是我們現在和接下來幾週或幾個月內完成的[工作]。

In terms of the journey, it's a little bit based on my practical experience, so to say. It takes us certainly through 2023 to prepare as much as we can. It takes us through 2024 to hopefully get all necessary regulatory approvals and so on. So I would say -- and maybe I'm wrong here, just to be clear, but I would say probably end of 2024, 2025 is the earliest point I would see for an IPO of CSF Boston. And then obviously, this is also next to all other factors, which I just was alluding to depends on the market situation and so on. But I think that's probably the way to think about it.

就旅程而言，它是根據我的實踐經驗說的。我們肯定需要到 2023 年才能盡可能多地做好準備。我們需要到 2024 年才能獲得所有必要的監管批准等。所以我想說 - 也許我在這裡錯了，只是為了清楚，但我想說可能是 2024 年底，2025 年是我認為 CSF Boston 首次公開募股的最早時間點。然後很明顯，這也僅次於我剛才提到的所有其他因素，這取決於市場情況等。但我認為這可能是思考它的方式。

The next question comes from the line of Daniel Zulauf with (inaudible).

下一個問題來自 Daniel Zulauf 的台詞（聽不清）。

I have a few questions, two, I think. The first is I would like to invite you to -- I mean, the operation herein seems to, I guess, all of us, highly complicated. And -- we -- I would like to invite you to tell us a little bit -- you referred to some experience you made in the past in similar situation, as you mentioned it, I would like to invite you to tell us a little bit more about the complexity of the operation you're in. On the one hand, you have clients, you need to calm down and to -- you have collaborators who you need to try to convince to stay with the company. Then you have a number of businesses eroding rapidly due to your new risk measures. You have the capital situation, et cetera. You have to -- obviously the liquidity situation. Maybe you can tell us a little bit -- give us a short spot from inside, how this complexity you're dealing at the moment with how that feels like?

我有幾個問題，我想有兩個。首先，我想邀請你——我的意思是，我想這裡的操作似乎對我們所有人來說都非常複雜。而且 - 我們 - 我想請你告訴我們一些 - 你提到了你過去在類似情況下的一些經驗，正如你提到的那樣，我想請你告訴我們一些更多關於你所處的操作的複雜性。一方面，你有客戶，你需要冷靜下來，你有合作者，你需要說服他們留在公司。然後，由於您的新風險措施，您有許多業務正在迅速消失。你有資金情況等等。你必須——顯然是流動性狀況。也許你可以告訴我們一點——從內部給我們一個短板，你現在處理這種複雜性的感覺如何？

And the second question is about the money flows. I was asking UBS a few days ago, how these money outflows from Credit Suisse, especially in Asia, potentially would affect UBS. They said, they were not actually coming over to them this money that -- because that was an interesting argument as they said they were following another risk approach and clients in Asia, especially high net worth clients, the ones you are dealing with as well are following high-risk strategies, many of them. And banks like Credit Suisse were more eager to deal with such clients and et cetera. Maybe you can elaborate a little bit on these outflows from this perspective. I mean you are certainly less risk from now. And therefore, certain clients and certain businesses can no longer be offered. Maybe this is one of the reasons for the money outflows. Maybe you can elaborate a little bit on this second point as well.

第二個問題是關於資金流動的。幾天前我問瑞銀，這些資金從瑞士信貸流出，尤其是在亞洲，可能會如何影響瑞銀。他們說，他們實際上並沒有把這筆錢交給他們——因為這是一個有趣的論點，因為他們說他們正在遵循另一種風險方法和亞洲的客戶，尤其是高淨值客戶，你們正在與之打交道的客戶正在遵循高風險策略，其中有很多。瑞士信貸等銀行更願意與此類客戶打交道等等。也許你可以從這個角度對這些流出做一些闡述。我的意思是從現在開始你的風險肯定會降低。因此，無法再提供某些客戶和某些業務。也許這是資金外流的原因之一。也許你也可以詳細說明第二點。

Daniel, thank you for the question. This is Dixit here, and I'm glad you brought that up. The complexity of the firm as well as the performance that we've had in the last few years is really the reason why we needed to take radical action regarding the firm's perimeter. So we've tackled a number of things there. It's one, get the balance sheet smaller. We're derisking the firm as you're seeing through either the First Boston carve out that we're working on or it's the Apollo transaction that we announced this morning as well, the first close of the transaction where we've been derisking significant amount of assets out of that perimeter in the United States. All of the actions that we've been taking are quite deliberate around reducing the complexity of the firm, bringing more efficiency to the balance sheet, reducing the cost base and bringing the cost base more in line with revenues. And doing so in a faster manner as we can but being economically responsible for our shareholders. And I hope you're seeing that through all of the collective actions that we've been taking in the fourth quarter.

丹尼爾，謝謝你的提問。我是 Dixit，很高興你提到了這件事。公司的複雜性以及我們在過去幾年的表現確實是我們需要對公司周邊採取激進行動的原因。所以我們在那裡解決了很多事情。一是縮小資產負債表。我們正在降低公司的風險，因為您正在看到我們正在努力的第一波士頓分拆，或者是我們今天早上宣布的阿波羅交易，這是我們一直在降低重大風險的交易的第一次結束在美國該邊界之外的資產數量。我們一直在採取的所有行動都是為了降低公司的複雜性、提高資產負債表的效率、降低成本基礎並使成本基礎與收入更加一致。並儘可能以更快的方式這樣做，但要對我們的股東承擔經濟責任。我希望你能通過我們在第四季度採取的所有集體行動看到這一點。

The benefits of doing all that, as you see, is to your -- to the second part of your first question around capital and liquidity, as we reduce complexity, as we reduce risk, as we reposition the company around the new Credit Suisse and around clients, what that does do is have benefits in terms of liquidity, in funding and in capital. You've seen the capital benefits come through. We announced on the Apollo first close that we've transacted on yesterday and approximately 30 basis points CET1 uplift and that's over and above the 14.1% that we ended the year at. Of course, the 30 basis points would be in the first quarter of this year. You see in our funding plan a further positive. As a result of all of these actions that we've been taking since October, we've been able to reduce the funding plan and hence, on a go-forward basis that will improve our funding costs. But for the first time in the last 3 years, we now will issue less [bonds, then] we will redeem. And that's a good virtuous change and all as a result of what you've mentioned, which is reducing the complexity of the firm.

如您所見，這樣做的好處是您的第一個問題的第二部分關於資本和流動性，因為我們降低了複雜性，因為我們降低了風險，因為我們圍繞新的瑞士信貸和圍繞客戶，這樣做確實會在流動性、資金和資本方面帶來好處。您已經看到了資本收益。我們在阿波羅首次收盤時宣布，我們在昨天進行了交易，CET1 提升了大約 30 個基點，這超過了我們年底的 14.1%。當然，30 個基點是在今年第一季度。你在我們的資助計劃中看到了一個更積極的方面。由於我們自 10 月以來採取的所有這些行動，我們已經能夠減少融資計劃，因此，在前進的基礎上，這將降低我們的融資成本。但在過去 3 年中，我們現在將發行更少的 [債券，然後] 我們將贖回。這是一個很好的良性變化，所有這些都是你提到的結果，它降低了公司的複雜性。

Yes. And let me take the second one on as much as I can, so to say, Zulauf, also the -- I don't know what UBS told you, obviously. But in principle, we are, call it, trendy competitors. And from my observation, both sides behave always very professionally in the market goes without saying. With respect to your Asian point and risk profile and so on, look, I would say, -- whatever you heard, I wouldn't understand that, point one. Point two, as you know or might know, we are very deeply rooted in Asia, and that has to do with not only from the ultra-high net worth Wealth Management side, but also, in particular, in combination with the necessary Investment Banking capabilities. And what I mean is, and that's a fundamental difference between Asia and other parts of the world. In Asia, it's extremely important. You have these huge, huge families really who own large, large companies themselves as a family. And they need exactly an offering, which we build out there for many years and decades between Wealth Management and the Advisory part of the Investment Banking and Capital Markets side. And I think what we have built, the colleagues before me, obviously. What we have built there is probably a combination of offering, which is hard to copy for many, if not most of the competitors.

是的。讓我盡可能多地接受第二個問題，可以這麼說，Zulauf，還有——我不知道瑞銀告訴你什麼，顯然。但原則上，我們稱其為時髦的競爭對手。從我的觀察來看，雙方在市場上的表現總是非常專業，這是不言而喻的。關於你的亞洲觀點和風險狀況等，看，我會說， - 無論你聽到什麼，我都不明白，第一點。第二點，你知道或者可能知道，我們在亞洲的根基很深，這不僅與超高淨值財富管理方面有關，而且特別是與必要的投資銀行業務相結合能力。我的意思是，這是亞洲與世界其他地區的根本區別。在亞洲，這是極其重要的。你有這些龐大的家族，他們自己作為一個家族擁有大型、大型公司。他們確實需要一種產品，我們在財富管理與投資銀行和資本市場方面的諮詢部分之間建立了很多年和幾十年。我認為我們已經建立了，顯然是我之前的同事。我們在那裡建立的可能是產品的組合，這對於許多（如果不是大多數）競爭對手來說是難以復制的。

Operator, I think we just have time for one more question.

接線員，我想我們還有時間再問一個問題。

So the next question comes from the line of Christian Kolbe with [Blick].

所以下一個問題來自 Christian Kolbe 與 [Blick] 的對話。

I have 2. First question, you said, Ulrich Korner, that Credit Suisse will be profitable in 2024, again, (inaudible) wondering regarding the geopolitical risks out there and then the transformation risk inside Credit Suisse. How will you manage that? And the second question is it was said that you were paying like better interest rates, better conditions to -- for clients to come back. Is this reasonable because this will lead to new costs before you get the money back?

我有 2. 第一個問題，你說，Ulrich Korner，瑞士信貸將在 2024 年盈利，再次（聽不清）想知道那裡的地緣政治風險，然後是瑞士信貸內部的轉型風險。你將如何處理？第二個問題是，據說您要支付更高的利率、更好的條件——讓客戶回來。這是否合理，因為這會在您收回資金之前產生新的成本？

Thank you very much, both good questions. So let me start with the second first. At least -- if I remember correctly, I didn't know that we -- that I didn't say we paid better prices, higher prices, better interest rates as far as I remember.

非常感謝，這兩個問題都很好。所以讓我先從第二個開始。至少——如果我沒記錯的話，我不知道我們——據我所知，我沒有說我們支付了更好的價格、更高的價格、更好的利率。

No, no, not you, but it was heard. So yes.

不，不，不是你，但有人聽到了。所以是的。

I said we are paying competitive prices and competitive conditions in the market, and that is what we are doing. And I said explicitly because that's an important point. And I'm thankful for your question. I made the point very explicitly and saying, "Look, we are not buying assets back," so to speak. I mean that would not be sustainable. That would not be the right way to do it. And that's not -- so we try to be competitive, but not more.

我說我們正在支付市場上有競爭力的價格和有競爭力的條件，這就是我們正在做的。我說得很明確，因為那很重要。我很感謝你的問題。我非常明確地指出了這一點，並說，“看，我們不會回購資產，”可以這麼說。我的意思是那是不可持續的。那不是正確的方法。那不是 - 所以我們試圖保持競爭力，但不是更多。

With respect to profitability, I said 2024, we should be profitable. As you say, that's what our plan says. That is what we are executing with our transformation plan this year, last year and going into 2024. And yes, you are right. I mean there are always things in life, which nobody knows what happens in the world overall. But I think we have done a prudent and also, hopefully, somewhat careful planning, and that indicates me to say we should get profitable in 2024.

關於盈利能力，我說2024年，我們應該盈利。正如你所說，這就是我們的計劃所說的。這就是我們今年、去年和 2024 年的轉型計劃正在執行的內容。是的，你是對的。我的意思是生活中總有一些事情，沒有人知道整個世界會發生什麼。但我認為我們已經做了一個審慎的，而且希望是有點謹慎的計劃，這表明我說我們應該在 2024 年實現盈利。

Thank you, and we'll have to leave it there. But thank you all for joining us today. And if you have any follow-up questions, please do, as always, contact the media relations team in the usual manner. Operator?

謝謝，我們必須把它留在那裡。但感謝大家今天加入我們。如果您有任何後續問題，請一如既往地以通常的方式聯繫媒體關係團隊。操作員？

That concludes today's media conference call. A recording of the presentation will be available about 2 hours after the event on the Credit Suisse website. Thank you for joining today's call. You may all disconnect.

今天的媒體電話會議到此結束。演示文稿的錄音將在活動結束後約 2 小時在瑞士信貸網站上提供。感謝您參加今天的電話會議。你們都可以斷開連接。