Cleveland-Cliffs Inc (CLF) 2024 Q4 法說會逐字稿

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Kevin, and I'm your conference facilitator today. I'd like to welcome everyone to Cleveland-Cliffs full-year and fourth-quarter 2024 earnings conference call. (Operator Instructions)

女士們、先生們，早安。我叫凱文，今天我是你們的會議主持人。歡迎大家參加克里夫蘭克利夫斯 2024 年全年和第四季財報電話會議。（操作員指令）

The company reminds you that certain comments made on today's call will conclude predictive statements that are intended to be made as forward-looking within the Safe Harbor protections of the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995. Although the company believes that its forward-looking statements are based on reasonable assumptions, such statements are subject to risks and uncertainties that could cause actual results to differ materially.

該公司提醒您，今天電話會議上發表的某些評論將形成旨在在 1995 年《私人證券訴訟改革法》的安全港保護範圍內作為前瞻性陳述的預測性陳述。儘管該公司認為其前瞻性聲明是基於合理的假設，但此類陳述仍受風險和不確定性的影響，可能導致實際結果大不相同。

Important risk factors that could cause results to differ materially are set forth in reports on Forms 10-K and 10-Q, and news releases filed with the SEC, which are available on the company website. Today's conference call is also available and being broadcast at clevelandcliffs.com.

可能導致結果出現重大差異的重要風險因素已在提交給美國證券交易委員會的 10-K 表和 10-Q 表報告以及新聞稿中列出，可在公司網站上查閱。今天的電話會議也可以在 clevelandcliffs.com 上收聽和播出。

At the conclusion of the call, it will be archived on the website and available for replay. The company will also discuss results excluding certain special items. Reconciliation for Regulation G purposes can be found in the earnings release, which was published yesterday.

通話結束後，內容將存檔在網站上並可供重播。該公司還將討論不包括某些特殊項目的業績。在昨天發布的收益報告中可以找到有關 G 規則目的的對帳表。

At this time, I'd like to introduce Lourenco Goncalves, Chairman, President, and Chief Executive Officer. Please go ahead, sir.

現在，我想介紹董事長、總裁兼執行長 Lourenco Goncalves。先生，請繼續。

Thank you, Kevin, and good morning, everyone. 2024 is in the rearview mirror, and we have great potential for a strong 2025 right in front of us. Our order book has picked up substantially over the past months, and steel pricing is back on the rise.

謝謝你，凱文，大家早安。 2024 年已成過去，而強勁的 2025 年就在我們眼前，潛力巨大。過去幾個月我們的訂單大幅增加，鋼材價格也再次上漲。

Less than a month ago, our lead times for hot-rolled steel were three weeks. As of today, they are seven weeks. Order book and lead times are our most important forward-looking indicators, and they are both in their strongest position in nearly a year. In 2024, demand for steel was the weakest we have seen since 2010, other than during the temporary collapse caused by COVID-19 in early 2020.

不到一個月前，我們的熱軋鋼的交貨時間為三週。到今天為止，已經七週了。訂單量和交貨時間是我們最重要的前瞻性指標，它們都處於近一年來最強勁的地位。2024 年，鋼鐵需求是 2010 年以來最弱的一年，除 2020 年初新冠疫情導致的暫時崩潰。

The second half of last year was especially bad, with the steel demand from the automotive sector slowing down, construction activity lagging, and industrial production taking a hit. This led to the idle of our C6 blast furnace at Cleveland Works last quarter. A lot of this weak demand environment was a function of unnatural market factors at play.

去年下半年尤其糟糕，汽車業的鋼鐵需求放緩，建築活動落後，工業生產受到衝擊。這導致我們克利夫蘭工廠的 C6 高爐上個季度停產。這種疲軟的需求環境很大程度上是由於非自然的市場因素造成的。

Among these factors, interest rates kept at very high levels by the Federal Reserve, negatively impacted our service center customers' ability to buy steel from us. And of course, trade distortions enabled by foreign countries, supporting steel overproduction, continued to be a major problem.

在這些因素中，聯準會維持的利率處於非常高的水平，對我們的服務中心客戶從我們這裡購買鋼材的能力產生了負面影響。當然，外國造成的貿易扭曲，導致鋼鐵生產過剩，仍然是一個主要問題。

Regarding trade, the steel industry has been dealing with unfair competition from foreign producers for decades. We have always been very vocal in calling out each one of the problems, particularly the dumping of artificially cheap steel into the US market, subsidies that foreign governments hand out with [abandon] to their steel producers, currency manipulation, weak environmental regulations or lack of enforcement, and insufficient or non-existing punishment for bad actors who manipulate the global market.

在貿易方面，鋼鐵業幾十年來一直面臨來自外國生產商的不公平競爭。我們一直非常直言不諱地指出每一個問題，特別是人為廉價鋼鐵傾銷到美國市場、外國政府對其鋼鐵生產商的補貼、貨幣操縱、環境法規薄弱或缺乏執行，以及對操縱全球市場的不法行為者懲罰不足或不存在懲罰。

With the Trump administration in office, action is being taken. And we are starting to see positive signs ahead of us. We at Cleveland-Cliffs appreciate the recently announced 25% tariffs on steel imports from all countries. These tariffs are critical to addressing the problem, and we thank the Trump administration to have the courage to implement these tariffs.

隨著川普政府上台，行動正在採取行動。我們開始看到前方積極的跡象。克里夫蘭克利夫斯公司對最近宣布的對所有國家進口鋼鐵徵收 25% 的關稅表示讚賞。這些關稅對於解決問題至關重要，我們感謝川普政府有勇氣實施這些關稅。

While the United States continues to be in a net short position on steel, the biggest exporters of steel into the US are all guilty of overcapacity and overproduction. To make matters worse, these foreign overproducers of steel are all more carbon-intensive than each one of the US steelmakers, meaning that they overproduce steel and CO2, and then put this steel on a vessel that emits even more CO2.

儘管美國繼續處於鋼鐵淨空頭狀態，但美國最大的鋼鐵出口國都存在產能過剩和生產過剩的問題。更糟的是，這些外國鋼鐵過剩生產商的碳排放強度都比美國每個鋼鐵製造商都要高，這意味著他們過度生產鋼鐵和二氧化碳，然後將這些鋼鐵裝在排放更多二氧化碳的船上。

Cleveland-Cliffs is not depending on imported inputs, and we do not rely on foreign supply chains that can be disrupted overnight. The tariffs will penalize the foreign competitors who have been playing by a different set of rules while strengthening the domestic producers who actually invest in American workers, American manufacturing, and American supply chains.

克利夫蘭克利夫斯公司不依賴進口投入，我們也不依賴可能在一夜之間中斷的外國供應鏈。關稅將懲罰那些遵守不同規則的外國競爭對手，同時加強那些實際投資於美國工人、美國製造業和美國供應鏈的國內生產商。

The trade angle isn't just important for steel, but for finished goods as well. For the first time in history, 2024 was the year when sales of imported cars in the United States surpassed sales of domestically made vehicles. Let me repeat this point one more time.

貿易角度不僅對鋼鐵很重要，對成品也很重要。2024年將成為美國進口車銷售史上首次超過國產車銷售量的一年。讓我再重複一次這一點。

In 2024, the number of imported cars sold to consumers was higher than the number of domestic produced cars sold in the United States. That is exactly why tariffs and a strong industrial policy are necessary to protect and strengthen the American manufacturing base instead of letting it continue to erode.

2024年，銷售給消費者的進口車數量高於美國本土生產的汽車數量。這就是為什麼關稅和強有力的產業政策對於保護和加強美國製造業基礎而不是讓其繼續侵蝕是必要的。

We also appreciate that the recent tariff announcement includes downstream products containing steel, and that should benefit our clients in automotive and in other sectors. The tariffs will also benefit our newly acquired Stelco. That's right. Despite what some might assume, the best financial year for Stelco in the previous decade was 2018, when 25% tariffs on Canadian steel imports were in place.

我們也讚賞最近的關稅公告包括含有鋼鐵的下游產品，將使我們在汽車和其他行業的客戶受益。關稅也將使我們新收購的Stelco受益。這是正確的。儘管有些人可能認為情況並非如此，但 Stelco 在過去十年中最好的財年是 2018 年，當時加拿大對鋼鐵進口徵收 25% 的關稅。

The Stelco sells more than half of its output in Canada, and we compete with other Canadian suppliers who send the material into the United States. The Canadian steel market pricing reflects the US market pricing. So any resulting rise in pricing will flow directly to Stelco as well, on top of the benefit we're seeing from the weakening Canadian dollar.

Stelco 一半以上的產量在加拿大銷售，我們與其他將材料運往美國的加拿大供應商競爭。加拿大鋼鐵市場定價反映了美國市場定價。因此，除了我們看到的加幣走弱帶來的好處之外，由此導致的價格上漲也將直接影響 Stelco。

It has now been nearly four months of our ownership of Stelco. I will remind everyone that our acquisition process and reviewed by the DOJ went through seamlessly. The operational transition has been smooth. Lake Erie Works remains best in class from a cost structure standpoint.

現在我們擁有 Stelco 所有權已經快四個月了。我要提醒大家，我們的收購過程和司法部的審查過程非常順利。營運過渡十分順利。從成本結構角度來看，伊利湖工程仍是同類中最好的。

A large portion of our expected synergies have already been set in motion, and we are identifying more ways to maximize value from the combination. The best example is directing order flow to maximize all of our mills' strengths. This means we can load Lake Erie with the grades they make best and transition some of the more sophisticated grades than others to our US mills.

我們預期的協同效應大部分已經啟動，我們正在尋找更多方法來實現整合價值的最大化。最好的例子是引導訂單流以最大限度地發揮我們所有工廠的優勢。這意味著我們可以將他們生產的最佳等級的礦石運送到伊利湖，並將一些比其他等級更複雜的礦石轉​​移到我們美國的工廠。

The value we have found here will likely represent most of the remaining synergies. We expect to have the $120 million in synergies set in motion before the end of this year. As for the current state of play at Cliffs in general, we continue to manage costs, optimize operations, and maintain our financial flexibility. We have been through cycles before. We know exactly what to do.

我們在這裡發現的價值很可能代表大部分剩餘的協同效應。我們預計在今年年底前實現 1.2 億美元的綜效。就 Cliffs 目前的整體狀況而言，我們將繼續管理成本、優化營運並保持財務靈活性。我們以前也經歷過這樣的週期。我們確切地知道該做什麼。

We continue to enjoy full support from our investors. And we proved that once again with the recently issued senior unsecured notes, a deal that was oversubscribed and was priced in a few hours after launching. And as we have already explained, the market is certainly pointing in our favor.

我們持續得到投資者的全力支持。我們最近發行的優先無擔保票據再次證明了這一點，該票據獲得超額認購，並在發行後幾小時內就確定了價格。正如我們已經解釋的那樣，市場肯定對我們有利。

The first step is the tightening of the scrap market. We have been saying for years that the continued push towards EAFs would force scrap prices higher. That's exactly what's happening now. Prime scrap supply is inelastic, and demand keeps growing. In just two months, we have seen prime prices move up $70 per gross ton.

第一步是廢料市場的收緊。多年來我們一直在說，繼續推動電弧爐的發展將迫使廢鋼價格上漲。這正是現在正在發生的情況。優質廢料的供應缺乏彈性，而需求卻持續成長。短短兩個月內，我們就看到主要原油價格每總噸上漲了 70 美元。

Meanwhile, Cleveland-Cliffs is sitting exactly where we need to be. Our iron ore-based operations give us cost stability, quality consistency, and supply security. This is a long-term advantage that will only get stronger over time. Our order book is in a much stronger position to start 2025 with a significant uptick in demand.

同時，克里夫蘭-克利夫斯正好位於我們需要的位置。我們以鐵礦石為基礎的業務為我們提供了成本穩定性、品質一致性和供應安全性。這是一個長期優勢，而且隨著時間的推移，它只會變得更強大。我們的訂單量將更加充足，到 2025 年，需求將大幅增加。

The improvements in automotive have been especially encouraging, with increased volumes from both existing and new programs. We are seeing our best pool rates since early last year, a clear sign that we are recovering market share from the competitors that gave away price. These competitors can't win on quality or service. So they gave away the farm on pricing and are now struggling to deliver on performance.

汽車產業的進步尤其令人鼓舞，現有項目和新項目的產量都有所增加。我們看到了自去年初以來的最佳聯營價格，這清楚地表明我們正在從放棄價格的競爭對手那裡奪回市場份額。這些競爭對手無法在品質或服務上取勝。因此，他們在定價上放棄了農場，現在正努力實現業績。

No matter how much competition tries to lowball pricing in this market, quality and delivery performance always win in the long term. This positive trend, combined with better demand in other core segments, puts us in a great position for the year ahead. After spending the entire second half of 2024 with sub-$700 HRC pricing, we are finally starting to see the long overdue bounce.

無論這個市場上的競爭對手如何試圖壓低價格，從長遠來看，品質和交付績效總是勝出。這一積極趨勢，加上其他核心領域的更好需求，使我們在未來一年處於有利地位。在 2024 年整個下半年 HRC 價格低於 700 美元之後，我們終於開始看到早該出現的反彈。

And we're now even better equipped to write this upside than before, with Stelco and its primarily non-automotive book of business in the mix, resulting in a smaller percentage of fixed price contracts for our total Cleveland-Cliffs business as a whole.

現在我們比以前更有能力實現這一成長，因為 Stelco 及其主要的非汽車業務都參與其中，這導致我們整個克利夫蘭克利夫斯業務的固定價格合約所佔比例較小。

And let's not forget about safety. We had an outstanding safety record in 2024, and that is the direct result of our great relationship with our workforce. We take safety seriously, and the unions do, too. We reported a full-year 2024 total reportable incident rate or number of injuries per 200,000 hours worked of 0.9. And unlike some other companies in this industry, we count everyone inside our fence line: employees, contractors, everyone.

我們不要忘了安全問題。2024 年，我們的安全記錄非常出色，這是我們與員工之間良好關係的直接結果。我們非常重視安全，工會也是如此。我們報告稱，2024 年全年總可報告事故率或每 20 萬工作小時受傷人數為 0.9。與該行業中的其他一些公司不同的是，我們將所有人都算在自己的範圍內：員工、承包商、所有人。

Finally, before turning it over to Celso to go through our financial results, I will quickly address a topic I'm sure many of you want to hear about. Giving ongoing litigation, we will not be taking questions regarding the US Steel or Nippon Steel today. But our position is well known, and our conviction has never changed.

最後，在讓塞爾索介紹我們的財務結果之前，我將快速談一個我相信很多人都想聽到的話題。鑑於正在進行的訴訟，我們今天將不會回答有關美國鋼鐵公司或新日鐵公司的問題。但我們的立場是眾所周知的，我們的信念從未改變。

We have been steadfast in our opinion that US Steel's announced sale to Nippon Steel would never close. I said that in December 2023, then in 2024, and I'm repeating that in 2025. Just go back to our conference call transcripts and public statements, and you'll see that we have been correctly predicting this outcome for over a year.

我們始終堅信，美國鋼鐵公司宣布的向新日鐵公司出售的交易永遠不會完成。我在 2023 年 12 月說過這句話，然後在 2024 年又說過，而我在 2025 年又重複了一次。只要回顧我們的電話會議記錄和公開聲明，您就會發現我們在一年多的時間裡一直正確地預測這一結果。

The reality is that the deal has been blocked by the United States of America on serious national security concerns that cannot be mitigated. The CFIUS committee rightfully recognized this and specifically noted that allowing Nippon Steel, a company fully financed by the Japanese banking system and their near-zero interest rates, to become a major domestic player in the US would negatively impact the future of the entire American steel industry. And that would affect multiple states of the union in the Midwest and beyond.

現實情況是，這項協議因無法緩解的嚴重國家安全疑慮而被美國阻止。CFIUS委員會正確地認識到了這一點，並特別指出，允許新日鐵這家完全由日本銀行體系和接近於零的利率資助的公司成為美國國內的主要參與者，將對整個美國鋼鐵行業的未來產生負面影響。這將影響中西部及其他地區的多個州。

President Trump has said a number of times that Nippon Steel is an unacceptable buyer for a majority stake in the US Steel. That said, no situation is so bad that it cannot become a lot worse. For Nippon Steel, it's time to pack and go before their epic M&A disaster becomes a serious diplomatic issue.

川普總統曾多次表示，新日鐵住金不適合收購美國鋼鐵公司的多數股權。儘管如此，沒有任何情況會糟糕到不能變得更糟的程度。對新日鐵來說，現在是收拾行李離開的時候了，否則他們的大規模併購災難將會演變成嚴重的外交問題。

As President Trump says, let's see what happens. With that, I'll turn the call over to Celso.

正如川普總統所說，讓我們看看會發生什麼。說完這些，我將把電話轉給塞爾索。

Good morning, everyone. Moving on to our results for Q4 and full-year 2024. Our financial performance last year and particularly in the fourth quarter reflected the difficult market conditions that Lourenco described.

大家早安。接下來是我們的 2024 年第四季和全年業績。我們去年的財務業績，特別是第四季度的財務業績反映了 Lourenco 所描述的艱難的市場條件。

For the fourth quarter, we posted an $81 million adjusted EBITDA loss, which was primarily the result of weaker automotive demand and the impact of lagged pricing. Direct shipments to automotive in the fourth quarter were our lowest since the pandemic. And commodity pricing for the last six months of 2024 was the lowest six-month stretch since 2020.

第四季度，我們公佈的調整後 EBITDA 虧損為 8,100 萬美元，這主要是由於汽車需求疲軟和定價滯後的影響。第四季直接對汽車的出貨量是疫情爆發以來的最低水準。2024 年最後六個月的大宗商品價格是自 2020 年以來最低的六個月。

Given that over 90% of our shipments are impacted by either automotive pull rates or commodity steel pricing, these multiyear lows drove a negative impact in Q4. Fortunately, both of these situations have already begun to improve here into 2025 compared to 2024, just like things improved quickly in 2021 relative to 2020 a few years ago.

鑑於我們 90% 以上的出貨量都受到汽車拉動率或商品鋼材價格的影響，這些多年的低點對第四季度產生了負面影響。幸運的是，與 2024 年相比，這兩種情況在 2025 年都已開始改善，就像幾年前 2021 年相對於 2020 年的情況迅速改善一樣。

As Lourenco detailed, the automotive order book has been remarkably healthy to start 2025, due in large part to market share recovery and commodity steel prices rapidly on the rise. As a result, we view the fourth quarter of 2024 as the trough in our quarterly profitability as we gear up for a much improved 2025.

正如 Lourenco 所詳述的那樣，到 2025 年初，汽車訂單情況非常良好，這在很大程度上歸功於市場份額的恢復和大宗商品鋼材價格的快速上漲。因此，我們將 2024 年第四季視為我們季度獲利能力的低谷，並為 2025 年的大幅改善做好準備。

To be clear, with the inclusion of Stelco, for every $100 increase in the HRC price on an annual basis, our yearly revenue would increase roughly $1 billion, all things equal. And after factoring changes in profit sharing and historical scrap correlations, this $1 billion impact would largely flow directly down to EBITDA.

需要明確的是，如果納入 Stelco，在其他條件相同的情況下，熱軋捲價格每年每上漲 100 美元，我們的年收入就會增加約 10 億美元。在考慮利潤分享和歷史廢棄物相關性的變化後，這 10 億美元的影響將主要直接轉移到 EBITDA。

So if you hold all things equal and look to the HRC curve right now for 2025, you can pretty easily calculate a vastly improved adjusted EBITDA and cash flow for 2025, especially after adding another 2.6 million tons from our Canadian operations. Total shipments in Q4 were 3.8 million tons, which was lower than Q3 due to the continued idling of the C6 furnace, seasonally weaker demand, and only having Stelco for two months of the quarter.

因此，如果您保持所有條件相同，並查看 2025 年的 HRC 曲線，您可以輕鬆計算 2025 年的調整後 EBITDA 和現金流將大幅改善，尤其是在我們的加拿大業務增加了 260 萬噸之後。第四季總出貨量為 380 萬噸，低於第三季度，原因是 C6 爐持續閒置、季節性需求疲軟以及本季僅有 Stelco 兩個月。

Though the C6 furnace remains idle, our Q1 shipment level should improve back above the 4 million-ton mark, again, due to improved demand, better utilizations at our US mills, and having Stelco for a full quarter. Q4 price realization of $976 per net ton looked like a sharp fall of $70 per net ton from the previous quarter, but this was mostly driven by the incorporation of Stelco and their lower-priced mix.

儘管 C6 爐仍處於閒置狀態，但由於需求增加、我們美國工廠的利用率提高，以及整個季度都有 Stelco 供應，我們第一季的出貨量應該會回升至 400 萬噸以上。第四季的實現價格為每淨噸 976 美元，較上一季每淨噸大幅下跌 70 美元，但這主要是由於 Stelco 的加入及其低價產品組合所致。

The inclusion of Stelco into our results, obviously, helped lower our weighted average unit costs, with a reduction of roughly $15 per net ton compared to the prior quarter. Even though we weren't operating at full capacity with the C6 furnace down, we continued to reduce costs across the board.

將 Stelco 納入我們的業績顯然有助於降低我們的加權平均單位成本，與上一季相比每淨噸降低了約 15 美元。儘管 C6 爐關閉後我們並未滿載運轉，但我們仍在全面降低成本。

At this time last year, we guided that our unit steel costs would be down $30 per ton year over year. This is exactly what we accomplished, even in the face of all the headwinds we saw in 2024. Now with Stelco in the mix, we expect our average cost to decline another $40 per net ton in 2025. The cost advantage at Stelco is well documented, and the recent weakening in the Canadian dollar has only fortified that advantage even further.

去年此時，我們預計單位鋼材成本將年減 30 美元/噸。即使面對 2024 年面臨的所有阻力，我們仍然取得了這樣的成就。現在有了 Stelco 的加入，我們預計到 2025 年我們的平均成本將每淨噸再下降 40 美元。Stelco 的成本優勢是有目共睹的，而最近加幣的貶值更是進一步鞏固了這一優勢。

It's not just on the operational side, either. Looking at our SG&A for 2024, we were down nearly $100 million or 16% from the prior year, due primarily to lower incentive compensation. From a balance sheet perspective, we remain in a remarkably healthy liquidity position following our latest capital raise, where we replaced secure ABL borrowings with long-term unsecured notes.

這不僅發生在營運方面。縱觀我們 2024 年的銷售、一般及行政費用，我們比前一年下降了近 1 億美元，即 16%，主要原因是激勵薪酬較低。從資產負債表的角度來看，在我們最近一次融資之後，我們的流動性狀況仍然非常健康，我們用長期無擔保票據取代了有擔保的 ABL 借款。

As of today, we sit here with $3 billion in liquidity, and all of our secured debt capacity remains intact. Following the acquisition and the cash use in the fourth quarter, our leverage sits above our 2.5 times target on a net debt-to-EBITDA basis. And as we have done historically, that pivots us directly into debt reduction mode.

截至今天，我們擁有 30 億美元的流動資金，並且我們所有的擔保債務能力都保持完好。在完成收購並於第四季度使用現金之後，我們的槓桿率（以淨債務與 EBITDA 比率計算）已高於我們的目標 2.5 倍。正如我們過去所做的那樣，這將直接使我們進入減債模式。

If you look at Cliffs' recent history, we have a proven track record of levering up to make strategic acquisitions and subsequently paying down debt quickly. AK Steel, AM USA, and then FPT, it was the same story each time. It will be the same story with Stelco. We will use 100% of our free cash flow going forward toward debt reduction until that target is reached.

如果你看看 Cliffs 的近期歷史，你會發現我們在利用槓桿進行策略性收購以及隨後迅速償還債務方面有著良好的記錄。AK Steel、AM USA，然後是FPT，每次都是同樣的故事。Stelco 也會面臨同樣的故事。我們將利用 100% 的自由現金流來減少債務，直到達到這一目標。

The hurdle is not even quite as high this time, either. Compared to where we stood after completing the AK and AM USA acquisitions, our leverage is actually already in much better position. On top of that, at the time of those acquisitions, our net pension and OPEB liabilities were north of $4 billion.

這次的門檻也沒有那麼高。與完成 AK 和 AM USA 收購後相比，我們的槓桿比率實際上已經處於更好的位置。除此之外，在進行這些收購時，我們的淨退休金和 OPEB 負債已超過 40 億美元。

Those liabilities have been nearly eliminated, down by 90% from over $4 billion down to only $400 million as of the end of 2024. Q4 was a rather heavy period of cash use, both from the weak results as well as the buildup of inventory and the release of payables. This inventory build in Q4 is primarily a result of raw materials, particularly iron ore pellets, a situation that we'll be able to rectify here in 2025.

這些負債已幾乎消除，從 40 多億美元下降了 90%，截至 2024 年底僅為 4 億美元。第四季是現金使用相當頻繁的時期，既因為業績疲軟，也因為庫存增加和應付款項的釋放。第四季的庫存增加主要是由原料（尤其是鐵礦石球團）造成的，我們將能夠在 2025 年糾正這種情況。

This build sets us up well to rapidly respond to the improved demand we are seeing thus far this year. We will also have much lower capital expenditures in 2025 on a pro forma basis, particularly from a sustaining standpoint as we have completed our major reinvestment cycle.

這次建設為我們快速響應今年迄今所看到的不斷增長的需求奠定了良好的基礎。從預計來看，2025 年我們的資本支出也將大幅降低，尤其是從持續的角度來看，因為我們已經完成了主要的再投資週期。

Fortunately, as a single-mill operation, the Stelco assets were very well capitalized. And we do not have any catch-up CapEx requirements like we did following the AM USA acquisition, for example. Our total CapEx is expected to be $700 million in 2025 compared to $800 million in 2024 when you include Stelco.

幸運的是，作為一家單一工廠，Stelco 的資產資本化非常足夠。而且我們並沒有任何追趕資本支出的要求，例如在收購 AM USA 之後。預計 2025 年我們的總資本支出將達到 7 億美元，而如果包括 Stelco 的話，2024 年則為 8 億美元。

2024 represented a cyclical world that we all know as a steel company. I believe in the midst of our weakening results with our focus on cost control and our strategic M&A with Stelco, we positioned ourselves very well for a significantly improved 2025, especially as the wider market improves.

2024年代表了一個我們都知道的鋼鐵公司週期性的世界。我相信，儘管我們的業績由於對成本控制的關注以及與 Stelco 的策略併購而走弱，但我們已為 2025 年的顯著改善做好了充分準備，尤其是在整體市場好轉的情況下。

I'll now turn the call back over Lourenco for his closing statements.

我現在將電話轉回給洛倫索，請他作最後陳述。

Thank you, Celso. With the 2024 behind us, we are ready to reap the benefits of this new era in America. A focus on manufacturing within the United States finally is standing up to unfair competition and not allowing ourselves to be taking advantage of.

謝謝你，塞爾索。2024 年已經過去，我們已準備好收穫美國新時代帶來的利益。專注於美國國內製造業最終是為了抵制不公平競爭，不讓自己被利用。

These efforts are already showing up in our order book and our pricing. The golden age of American manufacturing is coming. And Cleveland-Cliffs, a proud American-owned and operated steel company producing steel from virgin iron from Michigan and Minnesota, is at the foundation of this effort, ready to support domestic manufacturing and American prosperity.

這些努力已經體現在我們的訂單和定價中。美國製造的黃金時代正在來臨。克利夫蘭克利夫斯鋼鐵公司是一家自豪的美國獨資和經營的鋼鐵公司，該公司利用來自密西根州和明尼蘇達州的原鐵生產鋼材，它是這項努力的基礎，隨時準備支持國內製造業和美國的繁榮。

With that, I'll turn it to the operator for Q&A. Kevin?

說完這些，我將把話題轉給接線生進行問答。凱文？

(Operator Instructions) Martin Englert, Seaport Research Partners.

（操作員指示）馬丁恩格勒特（Martin Englert），海港研究夥伴。

Hello, good morning, everyone. Appreciate the time. Next week, the US may move forward with 25% import tariffs with Canada and Mexico. This will be in addition to the steel tariffs already pursued, I believe.

哈嘍，大家早安。珍惜時間。下週，美國可能繼續對加拿大和墨西哥徵收 25% 的進口關稅。我認為，這將是已經實施的鋼鐵關稅的補充。

Can you discuss how Cliffs navigates the evolving tariff environment, its implications on price and demand, and what the strategy is for the recently acquired Stelco asset? And is there an option to move slabs rather than finished steel from Stelco into the US?

您能否討論一下 Cliffs 如何應對不斷變化的關稅環境、其對價格和需求的影響，以及最近收購的 Stelco 資產的策略是什麼？有沒有辦法將 Stelco 的板坯而不是成品鋼材運往美國？

Yeah. Look, Stelco is a small part of the entire picture. And the entire picture will benefit extremely well from whatever scenario you design, Martin, as far as tariffs. Tariffs are necessary. Tariffs are at the foundation of what President Trump and Secretary of Commerce Howard Lutnick are planning to implement in this country. And we fully support that.

是的。你看，Stelco 只是整個圖像的一小部分。馬丁，就關稅而言，無論你設計什麼樣的方案，整個情況都會受益匪淺。關稅是必要的。關稅是川普總統和商務部長霍華德·盧特尼克計劃在美國實施的政策的基礎。我們全力支持這一點。

That said, Stelco, like we explained during our prepared remarks, Stelco primarily book of business is in Canada. And we believe that by using our assets south of the border to execute on orders that are coming from American clients will largely mitigate the negative impact of any tariffs on Stelco.

話雖如此，正如我們在準備好的演講中所解釋的那樣，Stelco 的主要業務在加拿大。我們相信，利用我們位於邊境以南的資產來執行來自美國客戶的訂單將在很大程度上減輕關稅對 Stelco 造成的負面影響。

So we -- long story short, we believe that any small negative impact on Stelco, if any, which I still don't believe that they will be -- that will be the case -- will be largely offset and surpassed by the benefits to the rest of the footprint that are a lot bigger than Stelco individually.

因此，長話短說，我們相信，對 Stelco 產生的任何小的負面影響（即便有）——我仍然認為不會——將在很大程度上被其餘業務帶來的好處所抵消和超越，而這些好處要比 Stelco 單獨業務帶來的好處大得多。

Another point that I would like to one more time call attention to -- your attention and the attention of our investors, the best year of Stelco was 2018. And that was just after when President Trump during his first mandate implemented tariffs. So we fully expect that that will be the case again.

還有一點我想再次提請大家注意——請您和我們投資者註意，Stelco 最好的一年是 2018 年。而這剛好發生在川普總統首次任期內實施關稅之後。因此我們完全預料到這種情況會再次發生。

This is going back away. But thinking about just the mechanics of reporting with tariffs in place in Stelco and adjusted EBITDA, would you plan to report tariffs included or excluded from adjusted EBITDA?

這就要後退了。但是，僅考慮 Stelco 的關稅和調整後 EBITDA 的報告機制，您是否計劃報告調整後 EBITDA 中包含或排除的關稅？

We're going to always report our results as they are. And we do not even know how to do what you have just suggested, Kevin. It was not even part of our line of thought.

我們將始終如一地報告我們的結果。凱文，我們甚至不知道如何按照您剛才的建議去做。這甚至不在我們的考慮範圍之內。

Okay. Yeah. Just double checking. I appreciate that. If I could one more on fixed contracts for flat-rolled products, how did pricing change for the January resets?

好的。是的。只是再檢查一下。我很感激。如果我可以再問一次關於扁平軋製產品的固定合約，那麼一月份重置的價格如何變化？

And then just updated sensitivity for steelmaking ASPs, taking into account those contract resets, the inclusion of Stelco relative to changes in US spot market prices.

然後，剛剛更新了煉鋼 ASP 的敏感度，考慮到這些合約的重新設定，並納入了 Stelco 相對於美國現貨市場價格變化的影響。

Yeah, Stelco does not participate on that because the book of business is basically spot -- I would say, is spot. We don't have any contracts to speak of in Stelco. It's always spot, and that's a great thing in the current pricing environment.

是的，Stelco 不參與該活動，因為業務基本上是現貨——我想說是現貨。我們與 Stelco 還沒有任何值得一提的合約。它總是現貨，這在當前定價環境下是一件好事。

So for the rest of Cliffs, the fixed contracts are going -- negotiations are going extremely well, extremely well, among other things. Because we had a very unusual 2024, in which two domestic competitors decided to really dump from the inside. And in some situations, we elected to not play the game.

因此，對於 Cliffs 的其他部分來說，固定合約的談判進展非常順利，等等。因為我們經歷了非常不尋常的2024年，兩家國內競爭對手決定從內部真正傾倒。在某些情況下，我們選擇不玩遊戲。

And one of our then big clients became extremely weak, and they are no longer a major player, not only because of us but because of other things. So -- but we helped then become weaker. Even this client is coming back. Everybody else is coming back and coming back quickly.

我們當時的一個大客戶變得非常弱，他們不再是主要參與者，這不僅是因為我們，還因為其他原因。所以——但是我們幫助了他們，然後他們變得更弱了。連這位客戶也回來了。其他人都回來了，而且回來得很快。

So the scenario is the exactly opposite of what we had in 2024, when they had a low price high, fueling everything. At this point, reality sinking in. And nothing like having a government that is committed to bring manufacturing back within the borders of the United States. So everybody is coming to get the domestic supplier. The domestic supplier is Cleveland-Cliffs.

因此，目前的情況與 2024 年的情況完全相反，當時價格處於高位，推動一切。到了這一步，現實就開始顯現了。沒有什麼比擁有一個致力於將製造業帶回美國境內的政府更好的了。所以大家都來尋找國內供應商。國內供應商是Cleveland-Cliffs。

All right. I appreciate all the color, and good luck in the 1Q here. Thank you.

好的。我欣賞所有的色彩，並祝你在第一季好運。謝謝。

Thank you, sir.

謝謝您，先生。

Nick Giles, B. Riley.

尼克吉爾斯、B.萊利。

Thank you, operator, and good morning, everyone. Lourenco and Celso, I appreciate all the background on your previous debt paydown.

謝謝接線員，大家早安。洛倫科和塞爾索，我很感謝你們提供有關之前債務償還的所有背景資訊。

I was curious that if we were to see the equity remain under pressure, if you might consider pausing paydown for any share repurchases? And then my second question was, do you have a target level of net debt in mind? Thank you very much.

我很好奇，如果我們看到股權繼續承受壓力，您是否會考慮暫停任何股票回購的支付？我的第二個問題是，您是否考慮過淨債務的目標水準？非常感謝。

First of all, congrats on your promotion. And I will miss Lucas Pipes. But I know that Lucas went to a place that I'm sure that he will become a big shareholder of Cleveland-Cliffs. So that's a great thing for Lucas, and I'm sure that will be a great thing for B. Riley. And I hope it will be great for you as well, Nick.

首先祝賀你晉升。我也會想念盧卡斯·派普斯。但我知道盧卡斯去了某個地方，我確信他將成為克利夫蘭克利夫斯公司的大股東。這對盧卡斯來說是一件大事，我相信這對 B. 萊利來說也是一件大事。我也希望這對你來說也很好，尼克。

As far as that, let me start from the targets. I think Celso mentioned that we are maintaining our target of 2.5 times EBITDA as our target. And you're going to say, oh, but we are so much higher right now. Well, we are much lower than when we -- after we acquired ArcelorMittal USA, for example.

就此而言，讓我從目標開始。我認為 Celso 提到過，我們將維持 2.5 倍 EBITDA 作為我們的目標。你會說，哦，但是我們現在的價格要高得多。嗯，我們的股價比我們收購安賽樂米塔爾美國公司的時候低了很多。

So we know how to do these things. M&A is not for tourists. M&A is for the ones that understand how to do M&A, timing, how to execute, and during the backlash of having a couple of quarters like the Q4 that you saw. We know what we're doing. We prepared in Q4 to a great 2025.

所以我們知道如何做這些事情。併購並不適合遊客。M&A 適合那些懂得如何進行 M&A、把握時機、如何執行，以及在經歷像第四季度那樣的幾個季度的反彈之後如何應對的人。我們知道自己在做什麼。我們在第四季度為偉大的 2025 年做好了準備。

So we are expecting a completely different year. And we are enduring the bad results and are going to emerge from that point. As far as buying back stock, the answer is a resounding no. At this point, there is absolutely no other things that you're going to do, except paying down debt. Paying down net is the thing that will continue to build the value of our equity. So the answer is no.

因此，我們期待著一個完全不同的一年。我們正在承受著糟糕的結果，並將從中走出來。至於回購股票，答案是絕對不行。此時，除了償還債務外，你絕對沒有其他事情可做。淨償還將會繼續增加我們股權的價值。所以答案是否定的。

Lourenco, that's good to hear, and I really appreciate the kind comments. I'm sure Lucas would say the same.

洛倫索，很高興聽到這個消息，我非常感謝您的善意評論。我確信盧卡斯也會這麼說。

My next question was, curious how we should think about volume cadence over the course of the year. And how much of your cost guidance could be predicated on greater fixed cost absorption versus lower raw material costs?

我的下一個問題是，好奇我們應該如何看待這一年的音量節奏。您的成本指引中有多少是基於更大的固定成本吸收而不是更低的原料成本？

Yeah, I'll let Celso answer that one, Nick, please.

是的，我會讓塞爾索來回答這個問題，尼克，請。

Yeah. Hey, Nick. Just to echo Lourenco's comments, congrats again. So as we look toward the rest of 2025 -- and I want to actually address a question that Martin had asked previously as it relates to ASPs that I don't think we fully answered.

是的。嘿，尼克。只是為了回應 Lourenco 的評論，再次表示祝賀。因此，當我們展望 2025 年的剩餘時間時 - 我想實際上回答 Martin 之前提出的一個與 ASP 相關的問題，我認為我們還沒有完全回答。

Following the acquisition of Stelco, we're going to have a smaller percentage of our volume under fixed prices. So as we look towards the rest of this year, only about 30% to 35% of our volumes are under fixed pricing. And then you have about 20% on a CRU month lag, call it, 10% on a two-month lag for slabs, and 5% on a quarter lag. So I just wanted to make sure that was addressed as well.

收購 Stelco 之後，我們固定價格銷售量的比例將會減少。因此，展望今年剩餘時間，我們只有約 30% 至 35% 的銷售採用固定定價。然後，您會在 CRU 月滯後方面看到大約 20% 的差異，在板坯的兩個月滯後方面看到 10% 的差異，並且在一個季度滯後方面看到 5% 的差異。所以我只是想確保這個問題也能解決。

And then from a cost standpoint, we guided to $40 a ton reduction for the full year. And you're going to see that materialize more in the back half of the year than here in Q1. But it's going to be a consequence of a favorable cost mix from the Stelco acquisition, optimization of the integrated footprint, and clearing of kind of higher cost inventory. But that's what we're guiding for the full year.

然後從成本角度來看，我們預計全年每噸成本將降低 40 美元。而且你會看到，這種現像在下半年會比第一季更明顯。但這將是收購 Stelco 所帶來的有利成本組合、綜合足跡的最佳化以及高成本庫存的清理的結果。但這就是我們對全年的預期。

Thanks so much, Celso. And just to clarify, so those cost reductions would not include potential of bringing C6 back online?

非常感謝，塞爾索。需要澄清的是，這些成本削減不包括恢復 C6 生產的可能性嗎？

Correct, yeah, we're not bringing C6 back at this point.

正確，是的，我們現在不會帶回 C6。

Got it. Well, Lourenco, Celso, thank you so much for all your comments and continued best of luck.

知道了。好吧，Lourenco、Celso，非常感謝你們的所有評論，祝你們好運。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Phil Gibbs, KeyBanc Capital Markets.

KeyBanc 資本市場公司的 Phil Gibbs。

Hey, good morning.

嘿，早安。

Morning, Phil.

早上好，菲爾。

I want to talk a little bit about the capital expenditures this year and into the future. I know you've got some pretty material projects that you're working on over the next few years.

我想談談今年和未來的資本支出。我知道您在接下來的幾年裡正在進行一些非常重要的項目。

So I don't want to lose sight of the longer-term evolution with Middletown and Butler. Maybe give us some thoughts on where those projects stand and timelines, and how you're thinking about those right now?

所以我不想忽視米德爾頓和巴特勒的長期發展。也許您可以告訴我們這些項目的現狀和時間表，以及您現在對這些項目的看法？

Sure. Our CapEx for this year is very clear, $500 million for the legacy Cleveland-Cliffs footprint, $100 million for the Stelco footprint. That's probably in the high side, even though that's our numbers since the moment that we committed of the acquisition of Stelco.

當然。我們今年的資本支出非常明確，5 億美元用於傳統的 Cleveland-Cliffs 足跡，1 億美元用於 Stelco 足跡。儘管這是我們承諾收購 Stelco 以來的數字，但這個數字可能還是偏高了。

But this $100 million could be some savings here. I'm not sure if we're going to -- it will be necessary to spend the entire $100 million in this year, but that's the number we have in our books right now. And another $100 million for the three projects, Middletown, Butler, and Weirton. And that's pretty much what we are planning to spend this year.

但這1億美元可以作為一些儲蓄。我不確定我們是否要——今年是否需要花掉全部 1 億美元，但這是我們目前帳面上的數字。另外還有 1 億美元用於米德爾頓、巴特勒和韋爾頓三個項目。這就是我們今年計劃花費的金額。

As far as next year, it will all depend on how things will go, particularly in the Middletown one. I believe that Weirton is going fast, and it's going in the right direction. Butler, the same thing, the modernization of the furnaces at Butler. And you know how important grain-oriented electrical steels is for us. So we will continue to spend that money.

至於明年，一切都取決於事態的發展，尤其是米德爾頓的情況。我相信韋爾頓發展速度很快，而且正朝著正確的方向前進。巴特勒，同樣的事情，巴特勒熔爐的現代化。您知道取向電工鋼對我們有多重要。因此我們將繼續花這筆錢。

And the Middletown project, it's all about what's going to happen next with the efforts to produce hydrogen in the area. That project can become more towards natural gas, which, for me, is more comfortable because it's something that we dominate, particularly direct reduction plant operating under -- using natural gas as reductant.

米德爾頓計畫重點關注的是該地區下一步將如何生產氫氣。該項目可以更多地採用天然氣，對我來說，這更令人放心，因為這是我們所主導的，特別是使用天然氣作為還原劑的直接還原工廠。

That's exactly what we have in Toledo. So that's the only caveat that I have for that specific project. But it's so far away. We have so much time to continue to discuss with the new Department of Energy, and we'll go from there. So we're in good shape in all three.

這正是我們在托萊多所擁有的。這是我針對該特定項目的唯一警告。但它太遙遠了。我們有充足的時間繼續與新能源部進行討論，我們將從那裡開始。因此，我們在這三個方面都處於良好狀態。

And then on the Weirton project for electrical steels and related equipment, I can't remember, do you have a partner there now? I thought that there was some discussion of that? Okay, you do.

然後關於威爾頓電工鋼及相關設備項目，我不記得了，您現在在那裡有合作夥伴嗎？我認為對此有一些討論？好的，你明白了。

Yeah. We do, we do, and we are by equipment. So at the right time, we will review all the names and everything. But the point is, it's on time. And the orders are in place, and we are moving very expeditiously to start producing transformers in Weirton one year from now.

是的。我們做，我們做，我們靠設備。因此，在適當的時候，我們會審查所有的姓名和所有的事情。但重點是，它準時。訂單已經到位，我們正在迅速採取行動，並計劃一年後在威爾頓開始生產變壓器。

Thank you. And then my last question is just on some maybe some clarification just to start the year. Sounds like you will have a little bit better volume than the fourth quarter, particularly with the added month of Stelco.

謝謝。我的最後一個問題只是想在年初做一些澄清。聽起來你們的銷售量會比第四季好一點，尤其是增加了Stelco這個月。

But then sounds like in the legacy business, you're also swapping a decent amount of tons, call it, service center for more direct automotive as you've regained some share and then have some new programs kicking in and some decent demand. So putting that all together, do you actually have -- respecting that there's also lags, but do you have higher pricing mix in the first quarter than you do in the fourth? Thanks.

但聽起來，在傳統業務中，您也在用相當數量的服務中心換取更直接的汽車，因為您已經重新獲得了一些份額，然後有一些新的項目啟動，並有一些不錯的需求。那麼綜合所有這些，您是否實際上——尊重也存在滯後，但您第一季的定價組合是否高於第四季度的定價組合？謝謝。

Yeah, we will have a higher price mix because -- you mentioned the main reason. We're going to have more automotive in the mix. But make no mistake, overall, at the end of 2025, when you compare 2025 with, for example, 2021, you are going to see a better 2025 compared to 2021. Because overall, we are going to be able to benefit from price increase more instantaneously than we had in that year. Because on that year, we're overloaded with automotive. At this time, we are not.

是的，我們將有更高的價格組合，因為——你提到了主要原因。我們將會加入更多的汽車元素。但請不要誤會，總的來說，到 2025 年底，當你將 2025 年與 2021 年進行比較時，你會看到 2025 年比 2021 年更好。因為總體而言，我們將能夠比那一年更快地從價格上漲中獲益。因為那一年，我們的汽車業務量超負荷。目前，我們還沒有。

So the business that's coming back to us is primarily a business that will benefit from the higher prices immediately instead of having a lag that is tied to a contract with automotive. Actually, a couple of competitors of Cleveland-Cliffs will have this problem. And they will have this problem with the price that's really low at the price that they committed last year that I did not accept. So 2024 was theirs; 2025 will be ours.

因此，回到我們手中的業務主要是能夠立即從更高的價格中獲益的業務，而不是受到與汽車合約掛鉤的滯後影響。實際上，Cleveland-Cliffs 的幾個競爭對手都會遇到這個問題。他們會遇到價格問題，因為去年他們承諾的價格太低了，而我沒有接受。所以 2024 年是他們的； 2025年是我們的。

Yeah, thank you so much.

是的，非常感謝。

Maybe to add some numbers to that -- no, just to put some numbers around it. For Q1 ASPs, we're expecting to be up at least $10 a ton from Q4. Obviously, the monthly lag contracts will be slightly better. The quarterly lag contracts are going to be challenged still. But you're going to see these increased auto shipments from Q4 to Q1 will also benefit pricing.

或許可以加一些數字 — — 不，只是在周圍放一些數字。對於第一季的平均銷售價格，我們預計每噸價格將比第四季上漲至少 10 美元。顯然，月度滯後合約會稍微好一點。季度滯後合約仍將面臨挑戰。但你會發現第四季至第一季汽車出貨量的增加也將有利於定價。

Thank you so much. Appreciate the clarification.

太感謝了。感謝您的澄清。

Chris LaFemina, Jefferies.

傑富瑞的克里斯·拉菲米納 (Chris LaFemina)。

Thanks, operator. Hey, guys. Thanks for taking my question. Hey, Lourenco, just first quickly -- how are you doing? Just quickly on the steel market.

謝謝，接線生。嘿，大家好。感謝您回答我的問題。嘿，Lourenco，首先快速問一下——你好嗎？鋼材市場很快就上揚了。

I mean, obviously, prices have really begun to move higher, and you talked about your order books getting better. And we have the upcoming impact of tariffs, which would obviously be good for the medium to long term for you.

我的意思是，顯然價格確實開始走高，而且你也說過你的訂單情況越來越好。我們即將面臨關稅的影響，顯然對中長期有利。

But I'm just wondering about kind of the cadence of demand. And is it possible that there's been some demand that's being pulled forward ahead of tariffs, and maybe after tariffs kick in, we get a period where we have sort of consolidation before the prices start to move higher? Or do you think this is more a reflection of demand really recovering after a very weak 2024? That's my first question.

但我只是想知道需求的節奏。是否有可能在關稅實施之前，一些需求被提前了，也許在關稅實施之後，我們會經歷一段盤整期，然後價格才會開始上漲？或者您認為這更反映了需求在經歷了非常疲軟的 2024 年後確實正在復甦？這是我的第一個問題。

Yeah, I think that is a combination of everything. But demand is coming back. And as 2025 progress, Chris, you are going to see more and more domestic consumption for the simple fact that they are not going to be able to import anymore.

是的，我認為這是一切的結合。但需求正在回升。克里斯，隨著 2025 年的到來，你將看到越來越多的國內消費，原因很簡單，他們將無法再進口。

When you put tariffs on steel on every single country and when you don't accept exceptions, you don't create mechanisms for people to start to game the system by filing exceptions. And more importantly, when we shut down the door in Mexico that brings steel through Mexico into the United States and destroys the marketplace, then we have a great combination to improve and to increase demand.

當你對每個國家徵收鋼鐵關稅並且不接受例外時，你就不會為人們創造透過提出例外來開始玩弄系統的機制。更重要的是，當我們關閉墨西哥將鋼鐵運往美國的大門並摧毀市場時，我們就有了一個絕佳的組合來改善和增加需求。

Of course, the short term, there will be kind of a rearrangement of the supply chains. But look, nobody can say that it's efficient to like -- the CEO of one steel company said, some parts move across the border between the United States and Mexico seven times. And then they call that efficiency? My goodness, that's stupid, with all due respect.

當然，短期內，供應鏈會出現某種重新調整。但是你看，沒人能說這是高效的——一家鋼鐵公司的執行長說，一些零件要跨越美國和墨西哥的邊境七次。然後他們稱之為效率？天哪，恕我直言，這太愚蠢了。

So let's produce everything here in the United States and get things back where they belong. And don't forget, for a country like Mexico, tariffs will be stacked. So it's 25% plus 25% makes it 50%. So for the ones that relied in Mexico, time to get another thing to do.

因此，讓我們在美國生產一切，並將東西放回它們原來的位置。而且別忘了，對於墨西哥這樣的國家，關稅將會不斷增加。因此 25% 加 25% 等於 50%。所以對於那些依賴墨西哥的人來說，是時候做其他事情了。

Great, thanks for that. And then also, Celso, just on the working capital build in the first quarter. Do you -- would you expect that to begin to reverse in the second quarter? So should we start to have cash inflows through the rest of the year from working capital?

太好了，謝謝。另外，Celso 也談到了第一季的營運資本建設。您預計這種情況會在第二季開始逆轉嗎？那麼，我們是否應該在今年剩餘時間內開始從營運資金中獲得現金流入？

And I'm wondering if we might see over the course of the year, the net cash outflow from working capital in the first quarter would be more than offset over the course of the year. So in other words, you get potentially, for the full year, you get a benefit from working capital rather than just what you had in the first quarter?

我想知道我們是否會看到，在一年的時間裡，第一季營運資本的淨現金流出將在一年內得到抵銷。換句話說，您可能從全年營運資本中獲得收益，而不僅僅是第一季的收益？

Yeah, that's right. You nailed it. The working capital build in Q4 was to gear up for a much improved 2025. It was mostly all inventory driven, particularly in raw materials, pellets and coke. So we'll be able to work through all this in 2025.

是的，沒錯。你成功了。第四季的營運資本建設是為了迎接 2025 年的更大改善。這主要是由庫存驅動的，特別是原料、球團和焦炭。因此我們將能夠在 2025 年解決所有這些問題。

Okay, great. Thanks, guys, and good luck.

好的，太好了。謝謝大家，祝你好運。

Chris, just one more thing on capital -- on working capital. I could have shut down Minnesota at least (inaudible) and produce fewer pellets in Q4 and show a better number. and nobody will be saying, oh, there's a cash burn in this and that. I didn't do that. I produced the pellets.

克里斯，關於資本，還有一件事──關於營運資本。我至少可以關閉明尼蘇達州（聽不清楚）並在第四季度生產更少的顆粒並顯示出更好的數字。沒有人會說，哦，這或那都是燒錢的事。我沒有這麼做。我生產了顆粒。

Do you know why? Because I have full confidence that President Trump would keep the promise that he made. Promise made, promise kept. And tariffs -- demand is coming, and I have the pellets. Remember, there's a winter between the pellets and the consuming mills. I have the pellets ready to go.

你知道為什麼嗎？因為我完全相信川普總統會兌現他的承諾。做出了承諾，就遵守承諾。關稅－需求即將到來，我有顆粒。請記住，在顆粒和消耗磨機之間有一個冬天。我已經準備好彈丸了。

So we are ready for this tariff to be implemented. We are ready to take care of the market. We're not going to justify, we don't have feedstock, we don't have scrap, we don't have pellets, we don't have people. We have everything.

因此我們已經準備好實施這項關稅。我們已做好準備照顧市場。我們不會為此辯解，我們沒有原料，我們沒有廢料，我們沒有顆粒，我們沒有人力。我們擁有一切。

We produced less tons, but the employees are there, and we are ready to go. And that's what you do when you manage for the future and manage it for the near future. So that's the working capital thing that I would like you to understand. And please make your model demonstrate that because that's going to happen throughout 2025.

我們的產量較少，但員工還在，我們已做好出發的準備。這就是你在管理未來和管理近期時所做的事情。這就是我希望您了解的營運資金問題。請讓您的模型證明這一點，因為這將在 2025 年發生。

That makes sense. Thanks, Lourenco. Good luck.

這很有道理。謝謝，Lourenco。祝你好運。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Carlos De Alba, Morgan Stanley.

摩根士丹利的卡洛斯·德阿爾巴。

Yeah, thank you very much. Good morning. Celso, just to clarify on the working capital. Do you expect working capital to generate cash in Q1 or to consume cash in Q1? So I thought that after the increase in the fourth quarter, you would reduce working capital in the first quarter.

是的，非常感謝。早安.Celso，只是想澄清一下營運資金。您預計營運資本會在第一季產生現金還是會在第一季消耗現金？因此我認為在第四季增加營運資本之後，你們會在第一季減少營運資本。

Yeah, it will be relatively neutral in Q1, Carlos. But you'll start to see the benefit in subsequent quarters.

是的，卡洛斯，第一季的情況會相對中性。但您將在接下來的幾季開始看到其好處。

Okay. Great. And a couple of more questions. One is on the auto price for 2025, any more color that you can offer? Do you expect prices to be flattish, to move higher, move down, obviously, recognizing that now the fixed prices, overall, represent a less percentage of your overall volumes?

好的。偉大的。還有一些問題。一個是關於2025年的汽車價格，您還能提供其他資訊嗎？您是否預期價格將持平、走高或走低，顯然，同時又意識到現在固定價格總體上佔總銷量的比例較小？

Yeah, the entire picture of automotive will represent less of a percentage of the overall volume, and that's a net positive for us. But our prices had to go slightly down in some renegotiations, but not even close to what my competition was locking in for 2024. So when I say slightly down, I say slightly down, but not the absurd -- the domestic dumping that I had to compete against in 2024.

是的，整個汽車產業在整體銷售中所佔的比例將會減小，這對我們來說是有利的。但在一些重新談判中，我們的價格不得不略有下降，但與我的競爭對手在 2024 年鎖定的價格相比還相差甚遠。因此，當我說略有下降時，我是說略有下降，但不是荒謬的——2024 年我必須與之競爭的國內傾銷。

All right. Thanks, Lourenco. And looking at the balance sheet and working capital and cash flow generation, clearly, the priority is to bring down debt. Any -- and look, I understand that you are very positive on 2025.

好的。謝謝，Lourenco。從資產負債表、營運資本和現金流量產生情況來看，顯然當務之急是減少債務。任何——看，我知道你對 2025 年非常樂觀。

Things are improving. Prices are up. Your volumes are going to be higher. Your costs are coming down. Is -- the elephant in the room, I'm going to just address it. Is there a possibility of an equity issuance, or at this point in time, you feel that that is not needed?

情況正在好轉。價格上漲了。您的音量將會更高。您的成本正在下降。是 — — 這是房間裡的大象，我只想解決它。是否有可能發行股票，或目前您認為沒有必要？

I usually issue equity when the price per share is high. When the price per share is low, I issue unsecured debt. Because I know that I can do it, and I can do it in a couple of hours. Celso did that issue without even my help.

我通常在每股價格較高時發行股票。當每股價格較低時，我會發行無擔保債務。因為我知道我能做到，而且我能在幾個小時內做到。Celso 甚至不需要我的幫助就解決了這個問題。

And we have a following, and we appreciate our bond holders. They understand our company extremely well. And they know what we're doing. So the answer is no. We're not going to issue equity. We're not going to do anything. We did -- we issued unsecured debt to enlarge our liquidity.

我們擁有一群追隨者，我們也感謝我們的債券持有人。他們非常了解我們的公司。他們知道我們在做什麼。所以答案是否定的。我們不會發行股票。我們什麼也不會做。我們確實這樣做了——我們發行了無擔保債務來擴大我們的流動性。

And if you look at the number, you'll see that what we did in this last issuance was just offset the use of cash that we put to use to acquire Stelco. So it's just part of the M&A strategy. And everything is going accordingly to plan, including the fact that we knew that in 2025, we'll have a new beginning for manufacturing in the United States. And we fully support that, and we will continue to work to make this thing happen for the country and for Cliffs and for our shareholders.

如果你看一下這個數字，你會發現我們在最近一次發行中所做的只是抵消了收購 Stelco 所使用的現金。所以這只是併購策略的一部分。一切都按照計畫進行，包括我們知道2025年美國製造業將迎來新的開始。我們全力支持這一點，並將繼續努力，為國家、為 Cliffs 、為我們的股東實現這一目標。

Yeah. Carlos, there's no need to raise equity or to issue equity at this time. We're very proactive on the balance sheet on the capital structure. We did these unsecured deals to raise liquidity. Now we have all the liquidity that we need.

是的。卡洛斯，目前沒有必要籌集股本或發行股本。我們對資本結構的資產負債表非常積極主動。我們進行這些無擔保交易是為了提高流動性。現在我們已經擁有了所需的所有流動性。

We have secured capacity as well. And even more importantly, we have a capital structure that's designed -- that's predesigned for debt reduction. We have the ABL; that's kind of the number one target of free cash flow going forward.

我們也確保了產能。更重要的是，我們有一個為減少債務而預先設計的資本結構。我們有 ABL；這可以說是未來自由現金流的首要目標。

But we also have -- our bonds are well staggered in a way that they become callable with no penalty starting this year. So even after we've paid down the entire ABL, we have these different tranches of bonds that we can start to attack. So it's debt reduction from free cash flow generation with no equity raise.

但我們的債券也經過了分階段發行，從今年開始，這些債券可以無罰金贖回。因此，即使我們已經償還了全部 ABL，我們仍然可以開始償還這些不同類型的債券。因此，這是透過產生自由現金流來減少債務，而不是透過股權增加。

And again, if you look at the stack, you're going to see that the capital structure was put in place the way by design. So we knew that we would start having tranches of our bonds ready to be paid down or paid off with cash flow generation starting 2025.

再說一次，如果你看一下堆疊，你會看到資本結構是按照設計方式建立的。因此，我們知道，從 2025 年開始，我們將開始準備償還部分債券，或利用現金流償還。

Okay. And understanding that you may not answer this question based on what you said earlier in the call -- I respect that, and I will respect that, obviously. The balance sheet, is that a limitation to pursue another acquisition as you have highlighted in the past?

好的。我理解您可能不會根據您在通話中早些時候所說的內容來回答這個問題——我尊重這一點，而且我顯然會尊重這一點。資產負債表，就像您過去強調的那樣，這是進行另一項收購的限制嗎？

Let's see what happens. There's a guy that says that a lot when he says that, the ones that are in the receiving, they usually -- they know that they're in a bad spot. Let's see what happens.

讓我們看看會發生什麼。有一個人常說這樣的話，當他說這句話時，那些處於接收狀態的人，他們通常──他們知道他們處境不好。讓我們看看會發生什麼。

But to answer your question, Carlos, the balance sheet is not a constraint. We've proven that we can raise capital quickly when needed. So the balance sheet is not the constraint.

但是卡洛斯，回答你的問題，資產負債表不是一個限制因素。我們已經證明，在需要時我們可以迅速籌集資金。因此資產負債表並不是限制因素。

All right. Excellent. Well, thank you very much.

好的。出色的。好吧，非常感謝。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Lawson Winder, Bank of America.

美國銀行的勞森·溫德（Lawson Winder）。

Thank you, operator. Good morning, Lourenco and Celso. Nice to hear from you both.

謝謝您，接線生。早安，Lourenco 和 Celso。很高興收到你們的來信。

Celso, you mentioned that bringing the Cleveland Works number six back online is not something that you're considering at the moment. Can you maybe speak to the conditions for a potential restart and how you think about potentially doing that?

塞爾索，您提到目前您還沒有考慮讓克利夫蘭工廠 6 號機組恢復運作。您能否談談重啟的條件以及您如何考慮這樣做？

It's Lourenco here, Lawson. No, we're not going to talk about that. There's no subject to discuss on C6 right now. It's idled, indefinite idle, and due to remain indefinite idle until we will decide otherwise.

我是洛倫索，勞森。不，我們不會談論這個。目前 C6 上沒有可討論的主題。它處於閒置狀態，無限期閒置，並將保持無限期閒置狀態，直到我們另行決定。

Okay. Perfect. That's very helpful. With the synergies, you noted, the Stelco synergies that is, you noted, $120 million to be achieved by year-end '25, and you're on track to do so. You mentioned potential upside to that.

好的。完美的。這非常有幫助。您指出，透過綜效，Stelco 的綜效，到 25 年底將實現 1.2 億美元的目標，而且您正按計畫實現這一目標。您提到了其潛在的優勢。

Is there a time at which we could get a sense of what some of that upside might be? And could some of that potentially be realized even this year before year-end?

我們什麼時候才能意識到其中的好處呢？其中的一些目標有可能在今年年底前實現嗎？

Celso, take that.

塞爾索，拿著。

Yeah. I mean, as it relates to the Stelco synergies, Lawson, we feel extremely confident in being able to overachieve that $120 million that we outlined. I think we've given the breakdown of that. But if you just look at what we've done with our other acquisitions, we have a track record of overachieving these synergies.

是的。我的意思是，就 Stelco 綜效而言，勞森，我們非常有信心能夠超額完成我們提出的 1.2 億美元目標。我想我們已經對此進行了細分。但如果你看看我們在其他收購中取得的成績，你會發現我們在實現這些協同效應方面有著超額完成的記錄。

A large portion of the $120 million has already been set in motion by the top management departures, kind of duplicative Board expenses, audit expenses, and things like that. But we continue to identify more and more unique ways to maximize value from this combination, and we'll be updating you guys over time. But for now, we feel extremely confident about the $120 million that we originally outlined.

這 1.2 億美元中的很大一部分已經因為高階主管離職、重複的董事會開支、審計開支等而動用。但我們將繼續尋找更多獨特的方法來最大化這種組合的價值，並且我們會隨著時間的推移向大家更新資訊。但就目前而言，我們對最初提出的 1.2 億美元非常有信心。

Okay, fantastic. And if I could ask about your Zanesville non-grain-oriented line that started up mid last year, is that now pretty much fully ramped up? And what are you seeing in terms of pricing?

好的，太棒了。我想問一下，你們去年年中啟動的 Zanesville 非穀物導向生產線現在是否已經全面投入生產了？您在定價方面看到了什麼變化？

You said non-grain-oriented electrical steel, is that what you're asking?

您說的是無取向電工鋼，這是您問的嗎？

Yeah. The electrical steel line, exactly the one that was commissioned last summer.

是的。這條電工鋼生產線正是去年夏天投入使用的路線。

Yeah. Look, we made more investments in our Zanesville plant that finishes electrical steels to increase our capacity of non-oriented electrical steels for 50,000 tons a year. That small investment paid off. We continue to deliver our non-oriented electrical steels, and we continue to sell our non-oriented electrical steels.

是的。你看，我們對位於贊斯維爾的電工鋼成品工廠進行了更多投資，將無取向電工鋼的產能提高到每年 50,000 噸。這筆小投資得到了回報。我們繼續交付我們的無取向電工鋼，並且我們繼續銷售我們的無取向電工鋼。

Our competitors -- two of our competitors made big investments to produce a lot more non-oriented electrical steels because they are believers in electric vehicles. And they thought electric vehicles will replace all ICE vehicles or internal-combustion-engine vehicles in a short period of time. Good luck with that.

我們的競爭對手－我們的兩個競爭對手投入巨資生產更多的無取向電工鋼，因為他們相信電動車。他們認為電動車將在短時間內取代所有內燃機汽車或內燃機汽車。祝你好運。

My goal with electrical steels has always been to produce transformers. And transformer is grain-oriented electrical steels. That one, it's only Cliffs, and you continue to be only Cliffs for the foreseeable future. There's plenty of room for other suppliers to produce grain-oriented electrical steels.

我對電工鋼的目標一直是生產變壓器。而變壓器用的就是取向電工鋼。那一個，只是懸崖，而且在可預見的未來，你仍然只是懸崖。其他供應商還有足夠的空間生產取向電工鋼。

But you need to have one thing that people talk loosely about, but sometimes there's nothing behind. It's called technology. We have the technology. We produce the ARMCO grain-oriented electrical steels as of today. And that's the best-selling grain-oriented electrical steels in the entire world. So we are good at that.

但你需要有一件人們隨意談論但有時卻沒有任何意義的事情。這叫技術。我們擁有技術。從今天起，我們開始生產 ARMCO 取向電工鋼。這是全世界最暢銷的取向電工鋼。所以我們在這方面很擅長。

We have no competition. Competition would be welcome. I'm pro-competition; come to compete with us. There's a market here for grain-oriented electrical steels. We have to produce it. So far, it's only Cliffs, and we are happy serving the market. So happy that now we're going to produce transformers ourselves.

我們沒有競爭對手。歡迎競爭。我支持競爭；來和我們競爭。這裡有一個取向電工鋼市場。我們必須生產它。到目前為止，只有 Cliffs，我們很高興為市場提供服務。很高興現在我們要自己生產變壓器了。

Okay. Thank you both for your comments.

好的。感謝你們的評論。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Mike Harris, Goldman Sachs.

高盛的麥克·哈里斯。

Thank you, and good morning.

謝謝，早安。

Good morning.

早安.

I just wanted to look at -- if you look at the expected cost reductions in 2025 and what you've done over the past two years, I mean, that's about $150 per ton. I was just curious, has that moved you further to the left on the cost curve by $150 per ton? Or was some of that, perhaps, recovering from any drift you may have experienced to the right of cost curve?

我只是想看看——如果你看看 2025 年預期的成本削減以及過去兩年所做的努力，我的意思是，這大約是每噸 150 美元。我只是好奇，這是否使你們的成本曲線向左移動了每噸 150 美元？或者其中的一些可能是從您可能經歷的成本曲線右側的漂移中恢復過來的？

Look, of course, this number moves us to the left of the cost curve. But the point with the cost curve is that we are not a company that's designed to operate at low capacity. We are not a company designed to operate at low-grade steels. We are designed to produce high-end steels.

你看，當然，這個數字使我們移到了成本曲線的左邊。但成本曲線的重點是，我們不是一家設計為以低產能運作的公司。我們不是專門生產低等級鋼材的公司。我們致力於生產高端鋼材。

It's like, if you have a car and you want to make some extra money, and you're going to drive for Uber, it's better to buy a Camry instead of buying a Ferrari. It doesn't work as an Uber. We are a Ferrari. We are good when the economy is working, when the superpower is producing things domestically, and when you don't allow others come to destroy our market by destroying our pricing.

就好比，如果你有一輛車，你想賺點外快，而且你要為 Uber 開車，那麼最好買一輛凱美瑞，而不是法拉利。它不能像 Uber 那樣運作。我們是一輛法拉利。當經濟運作、當超級大國在國內生產產品、當你不允許別人破壞我們的定價來破壞我們的市場時，我們就很好。

And I know there's a generation here that only knows mini-mills, welcome to the world of integrated steel companies. You work for Goldman Sachs, right? So as you may know, there is an interest for an international company to acquire integrated assets in the United States.

我知道，現在的世代只知道小型鋼廠，歡迎來到綜合鋼鐵公司的世界。您在高盛工作，對嗎？所以您可能知道，跨國公司有興趣收購美國的綜合資產。

Have I ever asked you why? Why? It's because integrated steel assets have a place in economies that are functional. And that's what we have now in the United States. So wait for us in 2025, and we're going to see what vibrant economy, manufacturing economy fueled by domestic steel production can do when you have the right assets to support that type of effort. And that's Cleveland-Cliffs, and the country I'm talking about is the United States.

我曾經問過你為什麼嗎？為什麼？這是因為綜合鋼鐵資產在功能性經濟體中佔有一席之地。這正是我們現在美國所面臨的情況。所以，請等待 2025 年，我們將會看到，當你有足夠的資產來支持這類努力時，由國內鋼鐵生產推動的充滿活力的經濟、製造業經濟將會產生什麼樣的效果。那是克里夫蘭-克利夫斯，我談論的國家是美國。

Okay. That's helpful color. And just on capacity utilization, can you help us with where you are right now and kind of how you see that changing in 2025 given current demand visibility?

好的。這是很有幫助的顏色。就產能利用率而言，您能否告訴我們目前的產能利用率情況，以及考慮到目前的需求可見性，您認為 2025 年產能利用率將如何變化？

Yeah. We are still moving -- transitioning from lackluster 2024, in which, like I said in my prepared remarks, more cars -- imported cars sold in the United States than cars produced in the United States. So that's an aberration. That's criminal. So we are fixing that.

是的。我們仍在努力從平淡無奇的 2024 年過渡，正如我在準備好的演講中所說的那樣，到那時，在美國銷售的進口汽車將比在美國生產的汽車還多。這是一種異常現象。這簡直是犯罪。所以我們正在解決這個問題。

And as soon as we have more and more cars sold in the United States that are produced in the United States, we are the ones supplying the steel for that. It's coming in 2025. Our C6 blast furnace is down, and we're going to keep it down for now. So capacity utilization percent, I don't even know how these things are calculated.

一旦我們在美國生產的汽車在美國銷售，我們就會為其供應鋼材。它將於 2025 年問世。我們的 C6 高爐已停產，目前我們打算讓它保持停產狀態。所以產能利用率百分比，我甚至不知道這些是如何計算的。

That's the picture that I need to tell you. We have plenty of capacity to produce more in our downstream lines. And we are very happy with the fact that we are self-sufficient in feedstock, and our supply chains are all domestic, controlled by Cleveland-Cliffs.

這就是我需要告訴你的圖片。我們有足夠的產能在下游生產線上生產更多產品。我們很高興能夠實現原料自給自足，我們的供應鏈全部在國內，並由克利夫蘭-克利夫斯公司控制。

Okay, thank you a lot.

好的，非常感謝。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Tristan Gresser, BNP Paribas.

法國巴黎銀行的 Tristan Gresser。

Yes, hi. Thank you for taking my questions. I have two. First, can you discuss a bit your view on the potential dilutions of tariffs? I mean, if we look at 2018 and 2002, we had this pattern of boom and bust tariffs in Q1, in Q2 rally, and then [painful issues].

是的，你好。感謝您回答我的問題。我有兩個。首先，您能否談談對關稅潛在稀釋的看法？我的意思是，如果我們看看 2018 年和 2002 年，我們在第一季度經歷了關稅的繁榮與蕭條，在第二季度經歷了反彈，然後[痛苦的問題]。

So I'd like to have your view on why do you think it's different this time? And also, you touched on the tariffs on the downstream side. How much of that, of a benefit could be for you? I start there. Thank you.

所以我想聽聽你的看法，你認為這次有什麼不同嗎？另外，您也提到了下游的關稅問題。這對您能有多少好處？我從那裡開始。謝謝。

I didn't get the second part, but I'll respond to the first part. Then we repeat your second part. This time around the administration -- and I heard that from the most of the Secretary -- the administration is not planning to toy with exceptions.

我沒看懂第二部分，但我會回應第一部分。然後我們重複你的第二部分。這一次，政府——而且我從大多數國務卿那裡聽說——政府不打算嘗試例外情況。

The exclusion -- exceptions are always the beginning of the end. So there's a lot of commitment right now not to allow for the mistakes of the past. And the exclusion process took a huge boost when President Biden took office. It was the time of the exclusions.

排除－例外總是結束的開始。因此，我們現在必須做出很多承諾，不再重複過去的錯誤。拜登總統上任後，排除程序得到了極大推動。那是一個排斥的時代。

He kept it, the tariffs. But the -- he kept 232 in place, but with so many exceptions that the holes compromised the entire thing. I don't see that happening at this time around. It's a clear commitment of the Trump administration to keep the entire thing intact. And exceptions, exclusions, are not really under discussion right now.

他保留了關稅。但是——他保留了 232，但有太多例外，以至於漏洞危及了整個事情。我現在不認為會發生這種情況。川普政府明確承諾保持整個局勢的完整性。目前，例外和排除還沒有真正討論。

Can you please repeat your second part of the question because I really missed that?

你能重複問題的第二部分嗎？因為我真的忽略了這一點？

Yes, no, it was on the downstream tariffs on articles of steel. So the new tariffs put on that. You mentioned it in your prepared remarks. How much of that is a benefit for your operations directly or indirect?

是的，不是，這是關於鋼鐵製品下游關稅的問題。因此對此徵收了新的關稅。您在準備好的發言中提到了這一點。其中有多少能直接或間接地為您的營運帶來利益？

Yeah. Look, let's think about cars. In a world of free trade -- by the way, free trade is -- I think that doesn't exist. We all know that. But in a world of free trade, cost producers in China and transhipped through Mexico can hit to the United States for $20,000.

是的。瞧，讓我們思考一下汽車。在自由貿易的世界裡——順便說一句，自由貿易是——我認為這並不存在。我們都知道這一點。但在自由貿易的世界裡，在中國生產並透過墨西哥轉運到美國的成本可能會達到 2 萬美元。

Consumers would be happy to buy. And that's valid for absolutely everything, everything that you can imagine. So we don't need to produce anything else. We'll just be here in the United States, buy on Amazon and sue each other. So that would be our daily activities and all working from home.

消費者會樂意購買。這絕對適用於一切事物，一切你能想像到的事物。所以我們不需要生產任何其他東西。我們將在美國，在亞馬遜上購物並互相起訴。這就是我們的日常活動以及所有在家工作的內容。

So this thing is not going to play that way. So downstream tariffs are important to avoid the leakage that would be generated by high-end products like cars, for example, and something else in another thing and another thing. And all of a sudden, we don't have an economy that can function anymore.

所以事情不會照那樣發展。因此，下游關稅非常重要，它可以避免由汽車等高端產品和其他產品產生的洩漏。突然之間，我們的經濟就無法正常運作了。

So we are plugging the holes -- the administration is plugging the holes. And we are going to have a much different world than the one that you described with leakage and watering down the tariffs. I don't think that that will happen. And from my standpoint, we are going to do whatever we can to help the administration help us. And that's what's happening right now.

因此，我們正在填補這些漏洞——政府正在填補這些漏洞。我們將生活在一個與你所描述的存在洩漏和關稅降低的世界截然不同的世界。我不認為那會發生。從我的角度來看，我們將竭盡所能幫助政府幫助我們。這正是現在正在發生的事情。

All right. That's very clear. And lastly, just a maintenance question on the cash interest expense for the year, if you can provide some guidance there. Thank you.

好的。這非常清楚。最後，關於今年的現金利息支出，我有一個維護問題，希望您能提供一些指導。謝謝。

Yeah, sure. Tristan, if you don't know how to calculate cash interest expenses, you just take the coupon of the bonds, and you multiply it by the amount outstanding. You get the cash interest expense.

是的，當然。特里斯坦，如果你不知道如何計算現金利息支出，你只需取出債券的票面利率，然後乘以未償還金額。您將獲得現金利息費用。

All right. Thank you. And lastly, just on the pension benefits you booked in Q4. Can you provide some guidance on that? And can you remind us if it's included in your adjusted EBITDA calculation? Thank you.

好的。謝謝。最後，關於您在第四季度預訂的退休金福利。您能就此提供一些指導嗎？您能否提醒我們它是否包含在您的調整後 EBITDA 計算中？謝謝。

$150 million, it's all included. 1-5-0 in cash, okay? Tristan?

1.5億美元，全都包括在內。 1-5-0 現金，可以嗎？特里斯坦？

Yeah, I got that. Thank you.

是的，我明白了。謝謝。

Okay. All right.

好的。好的。

Thank you. We've reached the end of our question-and-answer session. I'd like to turn the floor back over for your further closing comments.

謝謝。我們的問答環節已經結束。我想再次請大家發表進一步的結論。

Thank you very much for your interest in Cleveland-Cliffs. Let's continue to operate and take care of business here. And please, watch things evolve. Things are getting better. They'll get much better.

非常感謝您對 Cleveland-Cliffs 的關注。讓我們繼續在這裡經營和處理事務。請觀察事態的發展。情況正在好轉。他們會變得更好。

And we appreciate you guys following and comparing what we have told you today in this call. Have a great day, and we will talk soon. Bye now.

我們感謝你們關注並比較我們今天在這次電話會議中告訴你們的內容。祝您有愉快的一天，我們很快就會再聊。再見了。

Thank you. That does conclude today's teleconference and webcast. You may disconnect your line at this time, and have a wonderful day. We thank you for your participation today.

謝謝。今天的電話會議和網路直播到此結束。此時您可以斷開您的線路，並享受美好的一天。我們感謝您今天的參與。