Wintrust Financial Corp (WTFCN) 2025 Q4 法說會逐字稿

Welcome to Wintrust Financial Corporation's fourth quarter and full-year 2025 earnings conference call. A review of the results will be made by Tim Crane, President and Chief Executive Officer; David Dykstra, Vice Chairman and Chief Operating Officer; and Richard Murphy, Vice Chairman and Chief Lending Officer. As part of their reviews, the presenters may make reference to both the earnings press release and the earnings release presentation. Following their presentations, there will be a formal question-and-answer session.

歡迎參加 Wintrust Financial Corporation 2025 年第四季及全年業績電話會議。總裁兼執行長蒂姆·克萊恩、副董事長兼首席營運長大衛·戴克斯特拉以及副董事長兼首席信貸官理查德·墨菲將對結果進行審查。在回顧過程中，演講者可能會提及獲利新聞稿和獲利發布簡報。演講結束後，將進行正式的問答環節。

During the course of today's call, Wintrust management may make statements that constitute projections, expectations, beliefs, or similar forward-looking statements. Actual results could differ materially from the results anticipated or projected in any such forward-looking statements of the company's forward-looking assumptions that could cause the actual results to differ materially from the information discussed during this call are detailed in our earnings press release and in the company's most recent Form 10-K and any subsequent filings with the SEC.

在今天的電話會議中，Wintrust 管理階層可能會發表一些構成預測、預期、信念或類似前瞻性陳述的聲明。實際結果可能與公司前瞻性聲明中預期或預測的結果有重大差異。可能導致實際結果與本次電話會議討論的資訊存在重大差異的前瞻性假設，已在我們的盈利新聞稿、公司最新的 10-K 表格以及隨後向美國證券交易委員會提交的任何文件中詳細說明。

Also, our remarks may reference certain non-GAAP financial measures. Our earnings press release and earnings release presentation include a reconciliation of each non-GAAP financial measure to the nearest comparable GAAP financial measure. As a reminder, this conference call is being recorded.

此外，我們的發言可能會提及某些非公認會計準則財務指標。我們的獲利新聞稿和獲利發布簡報中包含每個非GAAP財務指標與最接近的可比較GAAP財務指標的調節表。再次提醒，本次電話會議正在錄音。

I will now turn the conference call over to Mr. Tim Crane.

現在我將把電話會議交給提姆‧克萊恩先生。

Good morning. And for those of you we haven't seen or talked to recently, Happy New Year. Thank you for joining us for the Wintrust fourth quarter and full-year '25 earnings call. In addition to the introductions Latif made, I'm joined by our Chief Financial Officer, Dave Stoehr; and Chief Legal Officer, Kate Boege.

早安.對於那些我們最近沒見面或沒聯絡的朋友們，新年快樂！感謝您參加 Wintrust 2025 年第四季及全年業績電話會議。除了拉蒂夫的介紹之外，我的同事還有財務長戴夫·斯托爾和首席法務官凱特·博格。

As we usually do on these calls, I'll begin the morning with a few highlights. Dave Dykstra will review the financial results. Rich will speak to loan activity and credit performance, and I will return with some summary comments on 2025 and early thoughts on 2026. As always, following our remarks, we'll be happy to take questions.

像往常一樣，我先從幾個重點內容開始今天的電話會議。戴夫·戴克斯特拉將審核財務表現。Rich 將談論貸款活動和信貸表現，我將對 2025 年做一些總結性評論，並對 2026 年做一些初步思考。和往常一樣，發言結束後，我們很樂意回答大家的問題。

With that, Wintrust delivered solid performance in 2025. The results reflect our focus on generating strategic and disciplined growth. I'm proud to say our efforts drove record net income for the year. For full-year 2025, we reported net income of $824 million, up 19% from $695 million in 2024. Earnings per diluted share was $11.40, up from $10.31 in 2024, and tangible book value increased by over $13 to nearly $89 a share. Total assets at year-end were just over $71 billion.

由此，Wintrust 在 2025 年取得了穩健的表現。這些結果反映了我們專注於實現策略性和紀律性成長的理念。我很自豪地說，我們的努力使公司今年的淨收入創下了歷史新高。2025 年全年，我們報告淨收入為 8.24 億美元，比 2024 年的 6.95 億美元成長了 19%。稀釋後每股收益為 11.40 美元，高於 2024 年的 10.31 美元，有形帳面價值增加了 13 美元以上，達到每股近 89 美元。年末總資產略高於710億美元。

Our fourth quarter was also strong. Net income was $223 million, also a record up 3% or $7 million from the prior quarter. Solid loan and deposit growth during the quarter and a slightly improved margin led to continued growth in net interest income. Credit quality remains solid, and overall noninterest expenses were well managed.

我們第四季的業績也十分強勁。淨利潤為 2.23 億美元，也創下歷史新高，比上一季成長 3% 或 700 萬美元。本季貸款和存款穩定成長，利潤率略有提高，淨利息收入也隨之持續成長。信貸品質依然穩健，非利息支出總體上得到了很好的控制。

When I look back over the year, I want to highlight three things that I am particularly pleased by. First, we delivered disciplined growth at a level above most of our peers with a stable margin. As we've discussed, we are adding new relationships, consumer and commercial, that we expect will be with us for years to come as we continue to build the franchise. In fact, in 2025, our steady and consistent approach moved us into third position in deposit market share in the Chicago area, and we showed strong gains in both Wisconsin and West Michigan.

回顧過去一年，我想重點說三件讓我特別滿意的事。首先，我們實現了高於大多數同業的穩健成長，並維持了穩定的利潤率。正如我們之前討論過的，我們正在建立新的客戶關係和商業關係，我們預計這些關係將在未來幾年內與我們保持聯繫，因為我們將繼續發展特許經營業務。事實上，到 2025 年，我們穩步前進的策略使我們在芝加哥地區的存款市佔率中排名第三，並且在威斯康辛州和密西根州西部都取得了強勁的成長。

Second, we achieved solid operating leverage. On a percentage basis, net revenue was up 11.2%, 340 basis points higher than our noninterest expense. We did this while investing in the tools, technology, and people to both run a bank our size today and to build a foundation for future growth. Lastly, we saw improved Net Promoter Scores that were already best-in-class in both retail and commercial banking in 2025 as our focus on exceptional customer service continues to differentiate us from many of our peers.

其次，我們實現了穩健的經營槓桿。以百分比計算，淨收入增加了 11.2%，比我們的非利息支出高出 340 個基點。我們這樣做的同時，也投資了工具、技術和人才，不僅是為了經營我們今天這樣規模的銀行，也是為了未來的發展奠定基礎。最後，我們看到淨推薦值有所提高，而到 2025 年，零售銀行和商業銀行的淨推薦值已經處於行業領先水平，因為我們對卓越客戶服務的關注繼續使我們從許多同行中脫穎而出。

Before I turn this over to Dave, I want to call your attention to the charts we included in our press release at the end of each year, showing our 10-year performance on key metrics. What you will see here is the continued consistent performance that we stress with our teams. I'm very proud of these results and how they translate into real value for our shareholders.

在把發言權交給戴夫之前，我想提請大家注意我們在每年年底的新聞稿中附上的圖表，這些圖表展示了我們過去 10 年在關鍵指標上的表現。您將在這裡看到的是我們一直強調的團隊持續穩定的出色表現。我為這些成果感到非常自豪，它們能為我們的股東帶來真正的價值。

Now let me turn this over to Dave.

現在我把麥克風交給戴夫。

Great. Thanks, Tim. We finished off 2025 with another quarter of strong loan and deposit growth with both falling within our stated range of mid- to high-single-digits growth. Specifically, the deposit growth was right at $1 billion during the quarter, representing a 7% increase over the prior quarter on an annualized basis. This deposit growth helped to fund continued strong fourth-quarter loan growth of a similar $1.0 billion amount that represented 8% growth on an annualized basis. On a full-year basis, loans and deposits grew 11% and 10%, respectively.

偉大的。謝謝你，提姆。2025 年末，我們又迎來了一個強勁的貸款和存款成長季度，兩項數據均在我們設定的中高個位數成長範圍內。具體而言，本季存款成長金額恰好達到 10 億美元，以年率計算比上一季成長了 7%。存款的成長為第四季度持續強勁的貸款成長提供了資金，貸款額達到類似的 10 億美元，按年率計算增長了 8%。全年來看，貸款和存款分別增加了 11% 和 10%。

Turning to income statement results. This was a very solid operating quarter for Wintrust, producing a record level of quarterly net income. Speaking to the major components of the income statement, our net interest income also reached another high record quarterly amount, a $1.1 billion increase in the average earning assets as well as a 4-basis-point increase in the net interest margin drove the $16.9 million increase in net interest income over the prior quarter. The net interest margin range from 3.50% to 3.56% during the four quarters of 2025, and the 3.54% net interest margin for the fourth quarter fell squarely in that range. I would note that period-end loans were once again higher than the average loans for the fourth quarter, giving us a good start on achieving higher average earning assets in the first quarter of 2026.

接下來來看損益表結果。對於Wintrust而言，這是一個非常穩健的營運季度，實現了創紀錄的季度淨收入。從損益表的主要組成部分來看，我們的淨利息收入也達到了另一個創紀錄的季度數額，平均生息資產增加了 11 億美元，淨息差提高了 4 個基點，推動淨利息收入比上一季增加了 1690 萬美元。2025 年四個季度的淨利差範圍為 3.50% 至 3.56%，而第四季的淨利差為 3.54%，正好落在該範圍內。需要指出的是，期末貸款再次高於第四季度的平均貸款額，這為我們在 2026 年第一季實現更高的平均收益資產奠定了良好的基礎。

The provision for credit losses was relatively consistent with prior quarters remaining in the $20 million to $30 million range experienced in all quarterly periods of 2025 and as the overall credit environment and asset quality has remained relatively stable. Regarding other noninterest income and other noninterest expenses, noninterest income totaled $130.4 million in the fourth quarter similar to the $130.8 million recorded in the prior quarter. The very slight decline was impacted by lower security gains. But overall, other than the continued softness in the mortgage revenue, it was a solid outcome for noninterest income for the fourth quarter.

由於整體信貸環境和資產品質保持相對穩定，信貸損失準備金與前幾季基本一致，仍維持在 2025 年所有季度期間的 2,000 萬美元至 3,000 萬美元範圍內。至於其他非利息收入和其他非利息支出，第四季非利息收入總計 1.304 億美元，與上一季記錄的 1.308 億美元相近。此次小幅下跌是由於安全收益下降所致。但總體而言，除了抵押貸款收入持續疲軟外，第四季非利息收入表現穩健。

As the noninterest expense categories, noninterest expenses totaled $384.5 million in the fourth quarter, which represented a slight increase from the $380 million recorded in the prior quarter. Increases in employees' health insurance claims, OREO expenses, travel and entertainment, and various other small expense increases were offset somewhat by seasonally lower marketing cost. Overall, expenses were well controlled and within the expected range we discussed on our last call.

在非利息支出類別中，第四季非利息支出總額為 3.845 億美元，比上一季的 3.8 億美元略有增加。員工健康保險索賠、OREO 支出、差旅和娛樂以及其他各種小額支出增加，部分被季節性較低的行銷成本所抵消。整體而言，費用控制得很好，都在我們上次通話中討論的預期範圍內。

Additionally, both the quarterly net overhead ratio and the efficiency ratio remained relatively stable during the quarter from the prior quarter. In summary, I'll reiterate what I have said on our last call, with this being another very solid quarter. The company accomplished good loan and deposit growth, a stable net interest margin with a steady outlook, a record level of net interest income, and a continued low level of nonperforming assets.

此外，本季淨間接費用率和效率率與上一季相比均保持相對穩定。總而言之，我重申我上次電話會議所說的，這又是一個非常穩健的季度。該公司實現了良好的貸款和存款成長，淨利差保持穩定，前景穩健，淨利息收入創歷史新高，不良資產水準持續保持較低水準。

Our team delivered net income that was a record for any full fiscal year in the company's history, and we have a positive outlook for continued growth in assets, revenues, and earnings.

我們的團隊實現了公司歷史上任何一個完整財政年度的淨利潤紀錄，我們對資產、收​​入和利潤的持續成長持樂觀態度。

So with that, I'll conclude my comments and turn it over to Rich Murphy to discuss credit.

那麼，我的發言就到此結束，接下來請里奇·墨菲來討論信用問題。

Thanks, Dave. As Tim and Dave both noted, credit performance continued to be very solid in the fourth quarter. As detailed on slide 7, loan growth of approximately $1 billion came from a number of different categories. Commercial real estate loans grew by $322 million. Our mortgage warehouse team grew their outstanding by $310 million. The Wintrust Life Finance team had another strong quarter and grew by $265 million. And our leasing and residential mortgage groups also had a very solid quarter.

謝謝你，戴夫。正如蒂姆和戴夫都指出的那樣，第四季度信貸表現依然非常穩健。如投影片 7 所示，約 10 億美元的貸款成長來自多個不同類別。商業房地產貸款增加了3.22億美元。我們的抵押貸款倉儲團隊未償餘額增加了 3.1 億美元。Wintrust Life Finance 團隊又迎來了一個強勁的季度，業績成長了 2.65 億美元。我們的租賃和住宅抵押貸款業務部門本季業績也非常穩健。

We believe loan growth for the first quarter, while typically our slowest quarter, will continue to be solid for a number of reasons. Our core C&I and CRE pipelines remain consistent, and we continue to benefit from our unique market positioning in our core markets of Chicagoland, Wisconsin, West Michigan, and Northwest Indiana. In addition, we continue to have a very good momentum in a number of our lending verticals, including mortgage warehouse, leasing, and premium finance.

我們認為，儘管第一季通常是我們成長最慢的季度，但由於多種原因，貸款成長仍將保持穩健。我們的核心工商業和商業房地產項目管道保持穩定，我們將繼續受益於我們在芝加哥地區、威斯康辛州、密西根州西部和印第安納州西北部等核心市場的獨特市場地位。此外，我們在多個貸款業務領域，包括抵押貸款倉儲、租賃和保費融資，都保持著非常好的發展勢頭。

From a credit quality perspective, as detailed on slide 15, we continue to see strong credit performance across the portfolio. This can be seen in a number of metrics. Nonperforming loans increased slightly from $162.6 million or 31 basis points to $185.8 million or 35 basis points, but remained at a very manageable level and in line with levels we had seen in the first half of the year.

從信貸品質的角度來看，正如第 15 頁幻燈片中所詳述的那樣，我們繼續看到整個投資組合的信貸表現強勁。這一點可以從多個指標看出。不良貸款從 1.626 億美元或 31 個基點略微增加到 1.858 億美元或 35 個基點，但仍處於非常可控的水平，與我們在今年上半年看到的水平一致。

Charge-offs for the quarter were 17 basis points, down from 19 basis points in the prior quarter. We continue to believe the level of NPLs and charge-offs in the fourth quarter reflect a stable credit environment as evidenced by the chart of historical nonperforming asset levels on slide 16 and the consistent level in our special mention and substandard loans on slide 15. This quarter is another example of our commitment to identify problems early and charging them down where appropriate. Our goal, as always, is to stay ahead of any credit challenges.

本季核銷額為 17 個基點，低於上一季的 19 個基點。我們仍然認為，第四季度的不良貸款和核銷水平反映了穩定的信貸環境，正如第 16 頁幻燈片上的歷史不良資產水平圖表以及第 15 頁幻燈片上我們特別提及的次級貸款的持續水平所證明的那樣。本季再次體現了我們致力於及早發現問題並酌情予以解決的承諾。我們的目標一如既往，就是提前應對任何信用挑戰。

As noted in our last few earnings calls, we continue to be highly focused on our exposure to commercial real estate loans, which comprise roughly 1/4 of our total portfolio. As detailed on slide 19, we continue to see signs of stabilization during the fourth quarter as CRE NPLs remained at a very low level, decreasing from 0.21% to 0.18%. And CRE charge-offs continue to remain at historically low levels.

正如我們在最近幾次財報電話會議中提到的，我們仍然高度關注商業房地產貸款，這些貸款約占我們總投資組合的 1/4。如投影片 19 所示，我們在第四季繼續看到穩定跡象，商業房地產不良貸款率保持在非常低的水平，從 0.21% 下降到 0.18%。商業房地產核銷額持續維持在歷史低點。

On slide 20, we continue to provide enhanced detail on our CRE office exposure. Currently, this portfolio remained steady at $1.7 billion or 12.1% of our total CRE portfolio and only 3.2% of our total loan portfolio. We monitor this portfolio very closely, and we will continue to perform our deep dive analysis on a quarterly basis. The most recent deep dive analysis showed very consistent results when compared to prior quarters.

在第 20 張投影片中，我們將繼續詳細介紹我們的商業房地產辦公室投資。目前，該投資組合保持穩定，規模為 17 億美元，占我們商業房地產投資組合總額的 12.1%，僅占我們貸款投資組合總額的 3.2%。我們會密切關注該投資組合，並將繼續按季度進行深入分析。最新深入分析顯示，與前幾季相比，結果非常穩定。

Finally, as we have discussed on previous calls, our teams stay in close contact with our customers, and those conversations continue to reflect a measured optimism. With solid visibility into our loan pipelines and continued discipline around our portfolio, we would expect loan growth in 2026 to be within our guidance and portfolio performance in line with our historical experience.

最後，正如我們在先前的電話會議中所討論的那樣，我們的團隊與客戶保持密切聯繫，這些對話也繼續反映出一種謹慎的樂觀態度。憑藉對貸款管道的清晰了解和對投資組合的持續嚴格把控，我們預計 2026 年的貸款成長將符合我們的預期，投資組合表現也將與我們的歷史經驗相符。

That concludes my comments on credit, and I'll turn it back to Tim.

關於信用問題，我的發言到此結束，接下來交給提姆。

Great. Thank you, Rich. Again, really good financial results in 2025. Our primary objective for 2026 is to continue to deliver solid and consistent financial performance. We expect our teams will continue to provide a differentiated level of service to drive organic growth. At the same time, we will continue to invest in the tools, technology, and people needed to support that growth.

偉大的。謝謝你，里奇。預計2025年將取得非常好的財務表現。我們2026年的主要目標是持續保持穩健、持續的財務表現。我們期望我們的團隊能夠繼續提供差異化的服務，以推動內生成長。同時，我們將繼續投資於支持這一成長所需的工具、技術和人才。

Our targets for 2026 are straightforward. We expect mid- to high-single-digit loan growth funded by a similar level of deposit growth as we continue to expand share. Given the current interest rate environment and even with a few rate changes in either direction, we expect the margin to remain relatively stable around 3.5%. We plan to deliver positive operating leverage while continuing to make the important investments that position us for the future.

我們2026年的目標很明確。我們預計，隨著我們不斷擴大市場份額，貸款將實現中高個位數成長，存款也將實現類似水準的成長。鑑於目前的利率環境，即使利率出現一些小幅波動，我們也預期利差將維持在 3.5% 左右的相對穩定狀態。我們計劃在實現積極經營槓桿的同時，繼續進行重要的投資，為未來做好準備。

We expect to see improved noninterest income in our wealth management and service-based fee income businesses and are hopeful for the mortgage market to pick up. We remain focused on our Midwestern footprint, and we'll continue to make the most of opportunities across the United States for our specialty businesses where our expertise and unique solutions give us a competitive advantage.

我們預期財富管理和服務型收費業務的非利息收入將有所改善，並希望抵押貸款市場能夠回升。我們將繼續專注於我們在中西部的業務，並繼續充分利用美國各地的機會，發展我們的專業業務，在這些業務中，我們的專業知識和獨特的解決方案使我們具有競爭優勢。

Our pipelines remain solid. And although we have strong momentum going into the year, we are mindful of the typical seasonality that can make our quarterly growth uneven, particularly in the first half of the year. With this in mind, I feel good about our business heading into 2026.

我們的管道系統依然穩固。儘管我們今年的發展勢頭強勁，但我們也意​​識到典型的季節性因素可能會導致季度成長不均衡，尤其是在上半年。基於此，我對我們公司在 2026 年的發展前景感到樂觀。

Let me end by saying that we could not generate the results that we do without the dedication and commitment of our Wintrust team. We have the best people in the business, and I want to thank each of our colleagues for all that you do to ensure we deliver results for our clients and our shareholders while we work to drive sustainable growth in the communities we serve.

最後我想說，如果沒有Wintrust團隊的奉獻和投入，我們不可能有今天的成績。我們擁有業內最優秀的人才，我要感謝每一位同事，感謝你們為確保我們為客戶和股東帶來成果所做的一切努力，同時我們也致力於推動我們所服務社區的可持續增長。

Thank you for joining us this morning, and let me turn it back to Latif for your questions.

感謝各位今天早上收看我們的節目，現在把發言權交給拉蒂夫，請他回答大家的問題。

(Operator Instructions) Jon Arfstrom, RBC Capital Markets.

（操作說明）Jon Arfstrom，RBC Capital Markets。

Can we -- we usually start with loan growth, but can you talk a little bit more about that, Tim, kind of the -- what takes you to the mid-single digit, what takes you to the high single-digit? Sounds like you're off to a stronger start even though you're flagging some -- how the first quarter and second quarter can sometimes be a little bit softer, but it feels like you're entering the year with pretty good momentum. Can you just unpack that a little bit for us?

我們－我們通常從貸款成長開始，但提姆，你能再多談談這方面嗎？是什麼讓你達到個位數中段的成長，又是什麼讓你達到個位數高段的成長？聽起來你的開局比較強勁，儘管你最近有些疲軟——第一季和第二季有時會比較疲軟——但感覺你以相當不錯的勢頭進入了新的一年。能稍微解釋一下嗎？

Sure. A little bit, Jon and Rich can help me here. But again, we're cautiously optimistic about what we're hearing in the local economies where we operate employment levels, unemployment levels are low, and it was a pretty solid quarter for us broad-based in terms of loan growth. So I think we feel pretty good. As you mentioned, the first quarter can be a little bit softer than the second quarter for us, but the first half of the year tends to be in line with our targets.

當然。Jon 和 Rich 可以幫幫我。但是，我們對在當地經濟中聽到的消息持謹慎樂觀態度，我們開展業務的地區的就業水平和失業率都很低，而且就貸款增長而言，這對我們來說是一個相當穩健的季度。所以我覺得我們感覺還不錯。正如您所提到的，對我們來說，第一季的業績可能會比第二季稍弱一些，但上半年的業績通常都能達到我們的目標。

So again, I think we feel pretty good. And Rich?

所以，我覺得我們感覺還不錯。還有里奇？

Yeah. No, I think you answered that very well. First quarter last year was 6.53%, so down from -- we're about 6%. And then we picked it up in the second quarter as you -- Jon, you know that story, how our first insurance business really kind of picks up the pace there in the second quarter.

是的。不，我覺得你回答得很好。去年第一季為 6.53%，所以比去年同期有所下降——我們現在大約是 6%。然後，我們在第二季又開始加速成長——喬恩，你知道這個故事，我們的第一個保險業務在第二季確實加快了步伐。

So we had a really good second half, but there's -- but where that comes from, is, as I mentioned, some really good market positioning right now in our C&I and CRE space that we feel pretty good about. When we talk to customers, as I mentioned, they feel pretty good about where the economy stands right now, and I think our -- there's enough stability in the general picture where they're willing to invest.

所以我們下半年的業績非常好，但正如我所提到的，這源於我們目前在商業和工業以及商業房地產領域的一些非常好的市場定位，我們對此感到非常滿意。正如我剛才提到的，當我們與客戶交談時，他們對目前的經濟狀況感覺相當不錯，我認為——整體情況足夠穩定，他們願意投資。

And then you look at the different verticals that we saw really good success with in the fourth quarter in particular with mortgage warehouse lines. And if we get some pickup here on the mortgage side of the business, I think you'll continue to see that in the first half of the year. Leasing resi mortgage also had a good quarter. So there's a lot of different things that feel pretty good right now.

然後，我們再來看看第四季度我們取得非常好成績的各個垂直領域，特別是抵押貸款倉儲信貸。如果抵押貸款業務方面出現一些好轉，我認為今年上半年你會繼續看到這種情況。住宅租賃抵押貸款業務本季表現也不錯。所以現在有很多事情都感覺很好。

But again, the effect of the first-quarter phenomenon in the premium finance business is something that we would expect to see usually reversing then back in the second quarter.

但是，我們預期第一季保費融資業務的這種現象通常會在第二季出現逆轉。

Okay. Good. And then maybe Tim or Dave, you talked about the positive operating leverage. I mean, there was a big lift in 2025. What are some of the puts and takes on expenses and overall thoughts on the expense plans for 2026?

好的。好的。然後，提姆或戴夫，你們談到了積極的經營槓桿。我的意思是，2025 年出現了一次大幅成長。對於2026年的支出計劃，有哪些值得關注和考慮的事項？以及整體的想法？

Well, I think it's probably sort of more of the same story that we've had before. If we have that mid- to high-single-digit revenue growth such as per se 7.5% to 8% is sort of the middle of the target. We would expect that off of the fourth quarter run rate. We would expect expenses off of the fourth quarter run rate probably to be in that 4% to 5% range. And so we expect to get positive operating leverage again.

嗯，我覺得這可能跟我們之前遇到的情況差不多。如果我們能實現中高個位數的收入成長，例如 7.5% 到 8% 就是目標的中位數。根據第四季的運行速度，我們預計會是這樣。我們預計第四季支出佔比可能在 4% 到 5% 之間。因此，我們預期會再次獲得正的經營槓桿效應。

And if you had revenue that was at the lower end of that range, then we would -- we have tightened up on expenses. So the -- the goal is to get a positive operating expense, invest in the business to support stronger growth as we've always done and grow the franchise. So as you know, second and third quarter is a little bit higher for marketing and sponsorships for us and the first and the fourth quarters are lower. But health insurance claims tend to -- are tending to be up a little bit in this market. And so they may rise a little bit. But all of that is sort of baked into this, say, 4% to 5% expected growth based on the fourth quarter run rate.

如果你的收入處於該範圍的下限，那麼我們就會——我們已經收緊了開支。因此，我們的目標是實現正營運支出，像以往一樣投資於業務以支持更強勁的成長，並發展特許經營業務。如您所知，第二季和第三季我們的行銷和贊助收入會略高一些，而第一季和第四季則會較低一些。但在這個市場中，健康保險索賠往往略有上升。所以它們可能會小幅上漲。但所有這些都已基本包含在基於第四季度運行率的 4% 到 5% 的預期增長中。

And again, that gets you operating leverage. If loan growth was lower for some reason, which we don't expect right now, we see a lot of good opportunities, and we would we would probably trim back a little bit on expenses, but we're big believers in investing in the business to grow the franchise.

這樣就能獲得經營槓桿。如果貸款成長因某種原因放緩（我們目前預計不會出現這種情況），我們看到了很多好的機會，我們可能會稍微削減一些開支，但我們堅信應該投資於業務以發展特許經營權。

Yeah, John, the two kind of wild cards. One, I think everybody is seeing benefit expense go up fairly substantially. The other is if the mortgage business picks up, we'll get more expense, but that would be good news for us because we would get obviously more revenue as well. Otherwise, I think Dave got the answer there.

沒錯，約翰，這兩個人就像是不可預測的因素。第一，我認為大家都看到了福利支出大幅上升。另一種可能是，如果抵押貸款業務好轉，我們的支出會增加，但這對我們來說是好消息，因為我們顯然也會獲得更多收入。否則，我認為戴夫已經得到了答案。

Nathan Race, Piper Sandler.

內森·雷斯，派珀·桑德勒。

I was hoping to unpack just the decline in deposit costs in the quarter, some of the drivers there. So maybe, Tim, could you just speak to how much of the opportunity to reduce deposit costs in the quarter was just a function of more rational competition in Chicago these days or maybe just some complexion changes in terms of the Wintrust deposit composition over the years that has allowed you guys to put up some favorable deposit reductions slightly?

我原本希望分析本季存款成本下降的原因及其一些驅動因素。提姆，您能否談談本季降低存款成本的機會，究竟有多少是由於如今芝加哥更加理性的競爭所致，又有多少是由於多年來Wintrust存款結構的某些變化，使得你們能夠略微降低存款成本？

Yeah, you bet, Nate. I guess two things. One, our team did a really nice job moving deposits as the Fed moved, and we talked about the expectation that we would be able to do that. And that, in fact, did play out in the fourth quarter. We also had kind of a nice trend in terms of DDA deposits during the quarter.

當然，你說的沒錯，內特。我想是兩件事。第一，我們的團隊在聯準會採取行動時很好地轉移了存款，我們也談到了我們能夠做到這一點的預期。而這其實在第四節比賽中得到了體現。本季DDA存款也呈現較為良好的趨勢。

That can be a little bit lumpy at year-end as companies position themselves for their reporting activities. But we continue to see good growth in terms of the commercial deposits of the bank and the treasury services they use, and we're going to continue to work that mix. It's just -- it can be a little bit lumpy. But we were very pleased with the way deposit costs were managed in the quarter.

年底時，由於各公司需要為財報發布活動做準備，因此數據可能會有些波動。但我們看到銀行的商業存款及其使用的資金管理服務持續保持良好成長，我們將繼續保持這種組合。只是——它可能有點凹凸不平。但我們對本季存款成本的管理方式非常滿意。

Okay. Great. That's helpful. And then just looking at some of the deposit growth drivers, it looked like it mainly came in the non-maturity segment. So just curious, do you see additional opportunities to run off higher cost CDs going forward? And can you kind of just speak to maybe the CD repricing benefit that you have with like 95% or so of your deposits that are CDs maturing by end of this year?

好的。偉大的。那很有幫助。然後，從一些存款成長驅動因素來看，似乎主要來自非到期存款領域。所以我很好奇，您認為未來是否有其他機會發行成本更高的定期存單？您能否談談貴公司對今年底到期的定期存款（約佔存款總額的 95%）享有的定期存款重新定價優惠？

Yeah. I think there's probably a minor benefit. Again, I would emphasize minor on the CD book rolling as we continue into 2026. But the noninterest or the interest-bearing deposit growth supports our loan growth. And as we continue to grow loans at a pretty healthy level, we've stated that we would try to continue to fund that with new deposits.

是的。我覺得可能略有好處。再次強調，隨著我們進入 2026 年，CD 書籍的滾動發行將成為次要問題。但無息存款或計息存款的成長支撐了我們的貸款成長。隨著貸款業務持續保持健康成長，我們已表示將繼續透過吸收新的存款來為其提供資金。

And our deposit costs can be a little bit higher than some of our peers. We're fine with that as we add clients to the bank that will be with us for a long time.

我們的存款費用可能比一些同業略高。我們對此並不介意，因為我們銀行正在吸引那些將長期與我們合作的客戶。

Chris McGratty, KBW.

克里斯·麥格拉蒂，KBW。

Tim or Dave, I guess, what's not where you want it to be? It seems like a lot of positives in one column. What's not where you want it to be in terms of either growth by asset class or anything operationally?

提姆或戴夫，我想，你覺得哪裡不對勁？一欄裡似乎列出了許多正面訊息。就資產類別成長或營運方面而言，有哪些方面沒有達到您的預期？

Well, we'd like the mortgage business to be stronger. We think we've done a good job of paring back the expense related to that business. So it's not damaging to us at these relatively low levels from a volume standpoint. We'd always like more commercial activity, but we remain pretty disciplined about trying to pick relationships versus transaction activity. And periodically, as some of our peers try to get loan growth, we've seen some transactional activity and some odd pricing.

我們希望抵押貸款業務能夠更加強勁。我們認為我們在削減與該業務相關的開支方面做得很好。所以從數量的角度來看，在目前這種相對較低的水平上，它不會對我們造成損害。我們當然希望有更多商業活動，但我們始終堅持以建立關係而非交易活動為重。並且，隨著一些同行嘗試實現貸款成長，我們偶爾會看到一些交易活動和一些奇怪的定價。

But we think we're -- we continue to be well positioned in the market. Size-wise, there are very few local institutions near where we are. We think that's an advantage for us. And net-net, we continue to feel like we're in a pretty good position.

但我們認為——我們在市場上仍然處於有利地位。從規模上看，我們所在的地方附近很少有本地機構。我們認為這對我們來說是個優勢。總而言之，我們仍然覺得我們處境相當不錯。

Okay. And then just following up, Tim, you don't need to do a deal with that kind of growth, but you have historically kind of entertained tuck-ins. Like what's the latest on M&A appetite?

好的。提姆，我再補充一點，對於這種成長，你不需要進行交易，但你過去也曾考慮過收購。併購的最新進展如何？

Yeah, Chris, you're right. I mean, we're aiming for organic growth, and that would be our plan. If we get an opportunity to do an acquisition, we think we're reasonably good at acquisitions, at least the smaller ones that we've done. Conversations continue. There's a little bit of fits and starts, but nothing that's worth talking about right now.

是的，克里斯，你說得對。我的意思是，我們的目標是實現有機成長，這將是我們的計劃。如果我們有機會進行收購，我們認為我們相當擅長收購，至少在我們進行過的較小的收購中是如此。對話仍在繼續。雖然有些小插曲，但目前沒什麼值得一提的事。

And our business plan for 2026 is based on growing our business organically.

我們2026年的商業計劃是基於業務的有機成長。

Brendan Nosal, Hovde Group.

Brendan Nosal，Hovde集團。

Just to start off on capital. You've built ratios nicely over the last 12 months despite robust loan growth. Is there a point at which you see alternative deployment outlets for capital beyond the dividend and organic growth?

先從資金做起。儘管貸款成長強勁，但在過去 12 個月裡，你們的各項比率都保持得相當不錯。您認為除了分紅和內生成長之外，還有哪些資本部署管道？

Well, I think as we talked before, I mean, generally, if you grow the mid- to high single digits, we're probably growing capital at 10 basis points a quarter, plus or minus. And so -- and we've been doing that. I think, as we said before, we want to focus on organic growth and see how strong that is. If that number starts to get to 10.5% or above and we don't have any good acquisition opportunities and organic growth is mid- to high single digits, that number would keep growing. So then I think you would look at buybacks and the dividend increases. But generally, it would be organic growth, well-priced acquisitions, smaller acquisitions, I think, would be number two than a buyback.

嗯，我想就像我們之前討論的那樣，我的意思是，一般來說，如果你實現個位數中高增長，那麼我們每個季度的資本增長可能達到 10 個基點，上下浮動。所以——我們一直在做這件事。我認為，正如我們之前所說，我們希望專注於有機成長，看看它的效果如何。如果這個數字開始達到 10.5% 或更高，而我們又沒有任何好的收購機會，而內生成長只有個位數中高段，那麼這個數字還會繼續成長。所以我覺得接下來應該要關注股票回購和股利成長。但總的來說，我認為有機成長、價格合理的收購、規模較小的收購，應該排在股票回購之後。

And just for reference. We haven't talked about this in a while, but we do have a little over $200 million of an authorized buyback plan in place that we could use down the road if we wanted to. But right now, I think we're letting it grow a little bit, going to see how the organic growth opportunities go and whether we can use it for that, and then we'll play by ear after a couple of quarters down the road.

僅供參考。我們已經有一段時間沒有討論過這個問題了，但我們確實有一個超過 2 億美元的授權回購計劃，如果我們將來需要的話，可以使用它。但就目前而言，我認為我們應該讓它發展一段時間，看看自然成長的機會如何，以及我們是否可以利用它來實現這些機會，然後過幾個季度後，我們會根據實際情況再做決定。

Okay. Okay. That's helpful. One more for me, just pivoting to credit and specifically the reserve. I think if I look back over the past two years, you've been gradually saving a couple of basis points here and there off reserve ratios, whether it's the stated reserve alone or ACL to the core loan portfolio.

好的。好的。那很有幫助。對我來說，還有一點，就是談信貸，特別是儲備金。我認為，回顧過去兩年，你們一直在逐步降低準備率，無論是規定的準備金還是核心貸款組合的 ACL。

I guess that a lot of that is formulaic and driven by outside doctors. So just kind of take us through the thought process on gradually bringing down reserves? And where do you see coverage ratios trending across 2026?

我想很多時候都是千篇一律的，而且是由外部醫生主導的。那麼，請您簡單介紹逐步降低外匯存底的想法？您認為到 2026 年，保險覆蓋率將呈現怎樣的趨勢？

Well, we don't plan whether to build reserves or take reserves away, the CECL process and the macroeconomic factors and the mix of the portfolio and the process we go through to determine reserves really determines the level of those reserves. So if the economic forecast gets much worse for some reason if the economy gets worse, and you're going to see that coverage ratio go up. What we saw started during the year is that the economic forecast generally were getting better. And so the model just spits out the results.

嗯，我們並不計劃是增加儲備還是減少儲備，CECL流程、宏觀經濟因素、投資組合組成以及我們確定儲備的過程，真正決定了這些儲備的水平。因此，如果經濟預測因為某種原因變得更糟，如果經濟狀況惡化，你會看到覆蓋率上升。今年以來，我們看到經濟預測總體上開始好轉。於是模型就直接輸出結果了。

But our credit, as we talked about, has been very good. Our criticized and classified levels are very low. Our NPAs are very low. Our charge-offs are low. And so we had economic conditions or even some commercial real estate pricing index got better early in the year and the like.

但正如我們剛才所說，我們的信用一直非常好。我們受到批評和列為機密的程度都很低。我們的不良貸款率非常低。我們的壞帳率很低。因此，年初時經濟狀況甚至一些商業房地產價格指數都有所改善等等。

And so we really do a fairly thorough process of using economic data digging down with our teams on the loan side to build what that reserve should be. So we don't go into it with some preconceived notion that we should build reserves or release reserves, we look at all the factors and record the provision accordingly.

因此，我們確實採取了相當徹底的流程，利用經濟數據與貸款方面的團隊進行深入挖掘，以確定應該有多少儲備金。因此，我們不會帶著某種先入為主的觀念去決定是應該建立儲備還是釋放儲備，而是會考慮所有因素，並據此記錄撥備。

So I don't want to give you an outlook as to whether you're going to build or release because I don't know what the economic factors are going to be in the future. And remember, CECL is a forward-looking concept, not a backward-looking concept.

所以我不想預測你們是會開發還是會發布，因為我不知道未來的經濟因素會是如何。請記住，CECL 是面向未來的概念，而不是一個面向過去的概念。

Jeff Rulis, D.A. Davidson.

傑夫·魯利斯，D.A.戴維森。

Tim, maybe just back to the -- you talked about the macro environment being pretty favorable or optimistic with the customers. I wanted to touch on the competitive landscape, some of your larger Midwest peers are engage with deal activity down in the Southeast and Texas and wanted to kind of -- is a portion of your growth or market share gains from maybe competitors being focused elsewhere? Just a thought on -- if you could touch on that.

提姆，或許我們還是回到剛才的話題——你剛才提到宏觀環境對客戶來說相當有利或樂觀。我想談談競爭格局，你們一些規模較大的中西部同行正在東南部和德克薩斯州進行交易活動，我想知道——你們的部分增長或市場份額是否來自競爭對手將注意力集中在其他地方？我有個想法——如果您能談談這方面的話。

Sure. We've always benefited from disruption, distraction, call it whatever you want. But we believe our position in the Midwest is an attractive one. We believe the markets we compete in are actually very good markets. There's a lot of density. There's a lot of wealth.

當然。我們一直以來都受惠於各種幹擾、混亂，或隨便你怎麼稱呼它。但我們相信，我們在中西部地區的地理位置極具吸引力。我們認為我們所競爭的市場其實都是非常好的市場。這裡人口密度很高。這裡有很多財富。

And to the extent that others elect to focus elsewhere at times, I think that's only helpful to us. But we compete with all of the big banks every day and a handful of Chicago-based competitors and, in some cases, credit unions in some of our markets. And so we believe we differentiate based on service and the people at the company, and we'll continue to do that.

如果其他人有時選擇將注意力轉移到其他地方，我認為這對我們只有好處。但我們每天都要與所有的大銀行競爭，還要與一些總部位於芝加哥的競爭對手競爭，在某些情況下，還要與某些市場的信用社競爭。因此，我們相信我們憑藉服務和公司員工脫穎而出，我們將繼續這樣做。

And I guess, Tim, just to kind of follow up then. I mean, you've outstripped a little bit of the -- even the high-single-digit, I think, 11% loan growth. And just trying to think about timing, do you look at '26 as equal opportunity on that disruption as you've had in maybe the prior year? I guess the question being, any change to that is that closing? Are you seeing folks kind of reorient with the Midwest and might be a more competitive year ahead? Loaded question.

我想，提姆，我只是想跟進一下。我的意思是，你們的貸款成長率已經超過了——甚至超過了接近兩位數的11%的成長率。就時機而言，您是否認為 2026 年與前一年相比，在應對這種變革方面擁有同等的機會？我想問的是，任何改變都會導致關閉嗎？你是否注意到人們的重點似乎轉移到了中西部地區，而明年的競爭可能會更加激烈？這是一個誘導性問題。

No. Well, it's hard to say. I think there certainly are lots of fits and starts for various competitors, and we have some folks that are trying to open more locations in Chicago and people that are trying to move teams. So I don't think that's anything really new. The only piece that I would say on loan growth relative to the last few years is, we've obviously had a little bit of a tailwind in terms of premium finance with premiums rising in addition to the bank growing the number of units that we produce.

不。嗯，這很難說。我認為對於各個競爭對手來說，情況肯定是一波三折，有些人正試圖在芝加哥開設更多分店，有些人則試圖調動團隊。所以我覺得這沒什麼新鮮的。關於貸款成長，我唯一想說的是，與過去幾年相比，我們在保費融資方面顯然得到了一些利好，因為保費上漲，而且銀行也增加了我們生產的單位數量。

And I think there is some flattening in terms of the premium environment for insurance companies. I don't -- people use soft and hard in all those terms. I just I just think it's probably up to us to grow the loans now as opposed to getting help from the market.

我認為保險公司的保費環境已經趨於穩定。我不這麼認為——人們在所有這些術語中都會使用“軟”和“硬”。我認為現在應該由我們自己來增加貸款，而不是尋求市場的幫助。

Appreciate it. And just one other one. Rich, looking at the linked quarter commercial nonperforming loan increase, again, not big and that probably flat to down from the second quarter. So the balances are kind of moving around. But anything you'd point to on the commercial linked quarter increase on nonperforming loans.

謝謝。還有一個。Rich，看看上一季商業不良貸款的成長情況，同樣，增幅不大，而且可能與第二季度持平或有所下降。所以，各方的平衡狀態不斷在改變。但任何與商業相關季度不良貸款成長有關的事情都不能算數。

No, not really. It's more episodic in nature, and we've said this in the past where we see things as just kind of one-off things and we work to solve them and move along. I think when I look at credit quality in the portfolio, we really focus on where the special mention, substandard numbers are, which we're seeing at a pretty consistent level. So things will occasionally go bump in the night, and that's our job to fix those. But this is really more, for this quarter at least, more of a -- we would kind of identify it as more episodic.

不，其實不是。它更像是一個個獨立的事件，我們過去也說過，我們把事情看作是孤立的事件，我們會努力解決它們，然後繼續前進。我認為，在審視投資組合中的信貸品質時，我們真正關注的是那些需要特別關注的、不合格的貸款數量，而我們發現這些貸款的數量一直保持在相當穩定的水平。所以偶爾會出點小問題，而我們的工作就是解決這些問題。但至少就本季而言，這更像是一種——我們會將其定義為一種偶發性現象。

And Rich, on the -- I guess, as we approach a year from kind of the tariff liberation day noise, your sense of customers, is there more maybe relative to ease. I mean, that threat is always out there. But from a customer standpoint, do you sense any more comfortability than you were nine months ago?

里奇，我想，隨著關稅解放日喧囂聲漸近一年，你對客戶的看法，是否與輕鬆程度有所提升？我的意思是，這種威脅一直存在。但從顧客的角度來看，您是否感覺比九個月前更舒適了？

Yeah. I think the ease around the tariffs is real. I think probably maybe even more so is I think labor costs, if you go back a year or two years ago, labor costs and finding labor was really problematic. I think that, that's improved quite a bit. And I think people kind of look at just a more stable labor environment, more predictable from an expense perspective. And so they're a little more comfortable today.

是的。我認為關稅方面的寬鬆政策是真實存在的。我認為可能更重要的是勞動成本，如果你回顧一兩年前，勞動成本和招募勞動力都是非常棘手的問題。我認為，那方面已經有了很大的改善。我認為人們更重視的是更穩定的勞動環境，以及從成本角度來看更可預測的環境。所以他們今天感覺舒服多了。

David Long, Raymond James.

David Long，Raymond James。

We talked about M&A, and I understand you guys have an excellent organic growth opportunity in front of you and fully taking advantage of it. But in the past, you've talked about other MSAs and looking to replicate what you do in Chicago and other MSAs, Minneapolis, St. Louis, Indianapolis have been mentioned. Is there any appetite to move outside of the Chicago MSA at this point?

我們談到了併購，我了解到你們面前有一個絕佳的內生成長機會，並且正在充分利用這個機會。但過去，您曾談到其他大都會統計區，並希望複製您在芝加哥和其他大都會統計區所做的工作，明尼阿波利斯、聖路易斯、印第安納波利斯都被提及。目前是否有人有意將業務拓展到芝加哥大都會區以外的地方？

Well, I mean, we're in Southeast Wisconsin and West Michigan now, which you know, David. I mean, we would be opportunistic in other Midwest geographies that we don't cover today, but that would be on a disciplined basis. And where we haven't been able to acquire, we've, in some cases, open branches, and we've been effective in doing so.

嗯，我的意思是，我們現在在威斯康辛州東南部和密西根州西部，你知道的，大衛。我的意思是，對於我們目前尚未涵蓋的其他中西部地區，我們可能會抓住機會，但這會是有條不紊地進行。而對於我們未能收購的地區，我們有時也會開設分支機構，而我們在這方面取得了成效。

We've talked in the past about Rockford, and we've got some branches opening in Northwest Indiana this coming year. So we'll take the opportunities as they come to us. But if we need to go to other geographies organically, we think we've proven our ability to do that.

我們之前討論過羅克福德，明年我們將在印第安納州西北部開設一些分店。所以我們會抓住每一個機會。但如果我們需要以自然而然的方式拓展到其他地區，我們認為我們已經證明了我們有能力做到這一點。

Terry McEvoy, Stephens Inc.

特里·麥克沃伊，史蒂芬斯公司

Maybe, Tim, just a question for you. As the industry continues to evolve, what are your current thoughts on the strategic benefits of operating 16 banking charters kind of relative to some of the costs and leveraging the Wintrust brand?

提姆，或許我有個問題想問你。隨著產業的不斷發展，您目前對經營 16 張銀行牌照的策略優勢有何看法？考慮到一些成本以及利用 Wintrust 品牌，您認為這些優勢如何？

Yeah. The charter question comes up periodically, and we currently have 16 for those of you that are following along. We believe they continue to be a benefit for us. They keep us closer to the market than many of our competitors. We've centralized most of the infrastructure and expense that goes along with the charters. And so it's really more of a marketing and market function that we believe is valuable to us.

是的。關於章程的問題時不時會被提及，目前我們有 16 份章程，供一直關注此事的各位參考。我們相信它們將繼續對我們有益。與許多競爭對手相比，他們讓我們更貼近市場。我們已經集中管理了與包機相關的絕大部分基礎設施和費用。因此，我們認為它實際上更像是一種行銷和市場功能，對我們很有價值。

And if you look at the communities in which we operate in many of those communities, we're the number one or number two market share in very attractive markets. That's not a benefit we want to give up at this point. So we watch it carefully. The expense is not trajectory changing. It's a structure that we believe we operate well, and we'll continue to evaluate it as we go.

如果你看看我們營運所在的社區，在許多這些社區中，我們在非常有吸引力的市場中都佔據著第一或第二的市場。我們目前不想放棄這項優勢。所以我們密切注意著。這項支出不會改變發展軌跡。我們認為這種架構運作良好，並將繼續根據實際情況進行評估。

But for the time being, we like it. There are clearly benefits. Deposit insurance is one of them, our MaxSafe product, obviously gives us the ability to provide customers more insurance than they might otherwise get. There are other benefits. And as you would expect, there are some other trade-offs, but the net balance for us remains positive.

但就目前而言，我們很喜歡它。顯然是有好處的。存款保險就是其中之一，我們的 MaxSafe 產品顯然使我們能夠為客戶提供比他們通常所能獲得的更多的保險。還有其他好處。正如你所預料的那樣，還有一些其他的權衡取捨，但對我們來說，淨收益仍然是正面的。

And then as a follow-up, about 1/3 of last quarter's loan growth was in mortgage warehouse. And I think in the past, you've talked about gaining market share. But when you kind of look at the forward curve, is that portfolio kind of a headwind, a tailwind to growth expectations for '26?

此外，上個季度貸款成長中約有三分之一來自抵押貸款倉庫。而且我認為你過去也談到過獲取市場份額的問題。但從遠期曲線來看，該投資組合對於 2026 年的成長預期是利好還是不利因素呢？

Obviously, it depends on what happens to the mortgage market. We've been successful in growing that business in a stable mortgage market because of the expertise our team brings and the job our folks do from an operational standpoint. But for us, that's a zero loss business with very attractive dynamics. We think we're very efficient.

顯然，這取決於抵押貸款市場的方向。我們之所以能夠在穩定的抵押貸款市場中成功發展這項業務，是因為我們團隊的專業知識以及員工在營運方面所做的工作。但對我們來說，這是一項零虧損的業務，而且發展前景非常誘人。我們認為我們效率很高。

It will move a little bit with the mortgage volume over time. And if the mortgage market gets stronger, as we've talked about, it's a benefit to us both in terms of our core business and the warehouse business.

隨著時間的推移，它會隨著抵押貸款量的變化而略有波動。正如我們之前討論過的，如果抵押貸款市場走強，這對我們雙方的核心業務和倉儲業務都有好處。

In addition to which, I think it's a great point Tim brings up. It's the market, obviously, but they have done a really nice job of bringing new names in, and that comes with if you get the volume, you also get some fee income out of that and some very nice deposits. So I mean, it's really -- it's been a great story in spite of the fact that you might get some volatility in overall rates. So we like where we sit in that space right now.

除此之外，我認為提姆提出的觀點非常好。這顯然是市場因素造成的，但他們在引入新名字方面做得非常出色，如果你獲得了交易量，你也會從中獲得一些手續費收入和一些非常可觀的存款。所以我的意思是，儘管整體利率可能會出現一些波動，但這確實是一個很棒的故事。所以，我們很滿意我們目前在這個領域的位置。

But Terry, this is Dave Dykstra. I would just add, the mortgage market has been bouncing around the bottom for so long. I say, a period of time, there's way more upside than downside there. It just doesn't seem like the the volumes are going to go much lower in the mortgage market. So I would think net-to-net over quarter-to-quarter, it may change a little bit.

但是特里，這位是戴夫·戴克斯特拉。我還要補充一點，抵押貸款市場已經在底部徘徊太久了。我說，從長遠來看，好處遠大於壞處。抵押貸款市場的交易量似乎不太可能大幅下降。所以我認為，從淨額到季度總額，情況可能會略有變化。

But net-net, has probably more upside than downside there exactly.

但總的來說，這方面的潛在收益可能大於潛在損失。

Casey Haire, Autonomous Research.

Casey Haire，自主研究。

Dave, I want to clarify your comments about the operating leverage dynamics. I think you said you expect mid- to high single-digit revenue off of '25 and then expenses to grow mid- to -- 4% to 5% versus the fourth quarter run rate. There's a little bit of excitement that you meant or that you said mid- to high-single-digits revenue growth off the fourth quarter run rate. Just wanted to clarify that.

Dave，我想澄清一下你關於經營槓桿動態的評論。我想你說過，你預計 2025 年的營收將比上季成長 4% 到 5%，而支出將比第四季的成長率成長 4% 到 5%。你剛才說的「第四季營收成長率將達到中高個位數」有點令人興奮。我只是想澄清一下。

Yeah. No, we're talking off of the -- something we generally have had acquisitions in past years, and we grow organically so good. we generally try to give you guidance of the fourth quarter run rate versus the full year. So when I talk -- when you're talking about forward growth, we're talking about off of the fourth quarter run rate on both sides there.

是的。不，我們指的是——過去幾年我們通常進行收購，而且我們自身發展良好。我們通常會盡量提供第四季與全年相比的業績指引。所以當我談到——當你談到未來成長時，我們指的是雙方第四季的運行率。

Okay. All right. And then just a follow-up on the -- a couple of follow-ups on the NIM. So first off, I have your interest-bearing deposit beta cycle to date around 57%. Just some updated thoughts as to where that can trend to in '26?

好的。好的。然後，還有一些關於 NIM 的後續問題。首先，我統計到您目前的計息存款β週期約為57%。關於2026年的發展趨勢，我有一些最新的想法？

Yeah. As we've talked about on prior calls, our guess on the deposit beta in terms of total cycle is going to be in the low 60s. And we continue to believe if we get rate cuts, that will do a nice job managing the deposit, the interest-bearing deposit expense. And so I don't think our view has changed there.

是的。正如我們在之前的電話會議中討論過的，我們猜測整個週期內的存款貝塔值將在 60 左右。我們仍然相信，如果能夠降息，就能很好地控制存款，也就是計息存款的支出。所以我認為我們在那方面的看法並沒有改變。

Okay. Very good. And just last one for me. The hedge program that you guys detailed on slide 12, you do have a number of hedges that mature this year. Does that hurt your ability to hold the NIM stable, or is there a plan to backfill with new hedges as they come off?

好的。非常好。這是我最後一個問題了。你們在第 12 張投影片上詳細介紹的對沖計劃，今年確實有一些對沖合約到期。這是否會影響您維持淨收入穩定的能力？或者是否有計劃在樹籬脫落後用新的樹籬進行補種？

No. Our guidance fully contemplates those hedging programs running off. But we would expect to pay market conditions to backfill that and just probably do some forward starts and fill in the gaps going forward as they mature. But we think given our current position, our current swaps in place and our growth projections is that we will hold the margin in the 350s. And as Tim said, if rates go up 2 or 3 times or down 2 or 3 times, we still think we're there.

不。我們的指導充分考慮到了那些正在運行的對沖計劃。但我們預計市場條件會彌補這些缺口，而且我們可能會提前啟動一些項目，並在項目成熟後填補未來的空缺。但我們認為，鑑於我們目前的地位、我們目前的互換交易以及我們的成長預測，我們將把利潤率保持在 350 左右。正如提姆所說，即使利率上漲 2 到 3 倍，或下跌 2 到 3 倍，我們仍然認為我們已經達到了目標。

So we think we're very neutral for a full year with the margin.

所以我們認為，在未來一年內，我們的利潤率將保持在非常中立的狀態。

David Chiaverini, Jefferies.

David Chiaverini，傑富瑞集團。

Maybe just starting off with further clarification on that run rate comment. So are we talking 4Q '26 versus 4Q '25, those growth rate figures? Or are we talking full-year '26 versus the 4Q '25 annualized?

或許應該先進一步澄清一下關於跑動率的評論。所以，我們討論的是 2026 年第四季與 2025 年第四季的成長率數據嗎？或者我們討論的是 2026 年全年數據，而不是 2025 年第四季的年化數據？

Taken 4Q '25 annualize that to get to a number, and then you can put the growth rates on top of that for the full year of '26.

以 2025 年第四季的數據為基礎，將其年化得到一個數字，然後就可以將 2026 年全年的成長率加到這個數字上。

Perfect. And then I wanted to ask about the mortgage banking outlook. It sounds like that could be a nice swing factor for 2026. Can you talk about your expectations in terms of volume, gain on sale margins, whether those could increase or be under pressure? And just give us a sense of how optimistic you are on that business.

完美的。然後我想問抵押貸款銀行業的未來前景。聽起來這可能會成為 2026 年的重要轉捩點。您能否談談您對銷售和銷售利潤率的預期，這些指標是會成長還是會面臨壓力？請您簡單談談您對這項業務的樂觀程度。

Well, I guess we've always been optimistic. And I think the last two years, I've been optimistic for a great spring buying season, it hasn't occurred, but we are optimistic. There's still a supply shortage out there. But I mean, if you look at our mix of business in the fourth quarter, it was about 50-50 purchase and refi. In the prior three quarters, it was probably three quarters purchase and a quarter refi. So as rates have come down, we've seen a little bit of a pickup in refi, but also a slow winter buying season in the fourth quarter.

我想我們一直都很樂觀。我認為過去兩年，我一直對春季銷售旺季抱持樂觀態度，雖然這種情況沒有發生，但我們仍然保持樂觀。目前市場上仍存在供應短缺問題。但我的意思是，如果你看一下我們第四季的業務組成，你會發現購買和再融資業務大約各佔一半。前三個季度，大概有三個季度是購房，一個季度是再融資。隨著利率下降，我們看到再融資活動略有回升，但第四季冬季購屋季也較為冷清。

But if you sort of look at the service portfolio that we have out there, which is a sizable portfolio. We've got maybe at the current rates around in the low 6s, we've got between 10% and 15% of that portfolio is sort of in the money to refi. But if rates go down another 25 basis points or, let's say, 50 basis points, you'd have more like 1/4 of that portfolio would be reliable. So we think if rates go down 25 to 50 basis points on the mortgage side that we could have some pickup. But the tenure has been going up.

但如果你仔細看看我們現有的服務組合，你會發現這是一個相當龐大的組合。以目前 6% 左右的利率計算，我們投資組合中大約有 10% 到 15% 的資產可以再融資。但如果利率再下降 25 個基點，或者，比如說，50 個基點，那麼你的投資組合中只有大約 1/4 是可靠的。所以我們認為，如果抵押貸款利率下降 25 到 50 個基點，可能會有一些回升。但任期一直在延長。

And so I can't predict interest rates, but we are optimistic that if the mortgage rates stay where they are now, and drop a little bit further into '26 that there's some pickup there. There's upside. And we don't think that going out -- going down much further is really that probable. We've been in the low 20s for quite a while here and with very low application volumes. So unless rates really shoot up in the mortgage market, we think we can hold this revenue.

因此我無法預測利率，但我們樂觀地認為，如果抵押貸款利率保持在目前的水平，並在 2026 年進一步下降一些，那麼市場將會有所回升。也有好的一面。我們認為繼續下降——或者說繼續下降更多——的可能性並不大。我們這裡的錄取率已經徘徊在20%左右很久了，而且申請量也很低。因此，除非抵押貸款市場利率真的飆升，否則我們認為我們可以保住這筆收入。

So we look at it as upside, and we're optimistic it happens, but we can't control the mortgage rates.

所以我們認為這是有利的，並且樂觀地認為這種情況會發生，但我們無法控制抵押貸款利率。

Yeah. And maybe the other benefit, which has been the case now for a couple of years is as these low rates have continued, many of the sort of refinance independent broker mortgage operations have gone out of business. And so our share of the market, we think, is up considerably. And when it comes back, we expect to do well.

是的。或許另一個好處是，近幾年來，隨著低利率的持續，許多再融資獨立經紀抵押貸款業務已經倒閉。因此，我們認為我們的市場份額已大幅提升。當它恢復正常運作時，我們期望能取得好成績。

Ben Gerlinger, Citi.

本‧格林格，花旗銀行。

Sorry, I just wanted to double check and maybe fine-tune a little bit here. And I apologize for being a little myopic on it. But you talked through the -- or the property casualty insurance market, and I agree, softening versus strengthening, I don't know either. But it seems like the pricing is a little limited year over year. So is it fair to think like 2Q will still be a good growth quarter, but maybe not as heroic as we've seen previously?

抱歉，我只是想再確認一下，也許還能稍微調整一下。我為自己在這件事上有些短視而道歉。但你談到了財產意外險市場，我同意，至於市場是走軟還是走強，我也不清楚。但似乎每年的定價都比較固定。那麼，認為第二季度仍將是一個成長良好的季度，但可能不會像之前那樣強勁成長，這種想法是否合理呢？

And I'm just trying to fine-tune the first half of the year in terms of modeling growth.

我只是想對今年上半年的成長模型進行微調。

Yeah. I think the only point we were trying to make is that for the last couple of years, we've had the benefit of premiums going up. That may not be the case right now. We don't think they're working against us. But we still expect a strong second quarter.

是的。我認為我們想表達的唯一觀點是，在過去幾年裡，我們一直受益於保費上漲。目前情況可能並非如此。我們認為他們並沒有與我們作對。但我們仍然預期第二季業績強勁。

It's a seasonal component of the Property & Casualty premium finance business, and we would expect to have a good second quarter.

這是財產和意外保險保費融資業務的一個季節性組成部分，我們預計第二季會表現良好。

Got you. And then just kind of at a 50,000-foot view, you guys generally trend to show loan growth and deposit growth in roughly the same quarter. Is that a fair way to think about this year given kind of what's transpired over rates and your outlook for growth?

抓到你了。然後從宏觀角度來看，你們的貸款成長和存款成長通常都發生在大致相同的季度。考慮到今年利率情勢的變化以及您對成長的預期，這種思考方式是否合理？

Yeah. We certainly aim for deposit growth to mirror our loan growth, and we would take more deposit growth if we could get it. Again, that's adding clients that will be with us for a long time. It can be lumpy. So I can't tell you they're going to exactly mirror each other, but that would be our target.

是的。我們當然希望存款成長與貸款成長保持一致，如果能夠實現更高的存款成長，我們當然更樂意接受。再次強調，這意味著我們將迎來一群長期合作的客戶。它可能表面凹凸不平。所以我不能保證它們會完全一樣，但那將是我們的目標。

Jared Shaw, Barclays.

Jared Shaw，巴克萊銀行。

Most have been asked and answered. But I guess just as you look at hiring incremental revenue producers here, are you seeing competition impacting what you have to pay for new people here? Or what's sort of driving the movement of revenue producers among companies right now?

大部分問題都已經提出並解答了。但我想，就像你們考慮招募能增加收入的員工一樣，你們是否也看到了競爭對你們支付新進員工薪資的影響？或者說，目前是什麼因素在推動公司間營收成長？

Yeah, I don't think there's been a hugely material change. Obviously, top-tier producers can be expensive. And we think we do a good job of not only working our own team and periodically finding others. We don't talk about it a lot here just because it's a normal part of our business. And so we're always looking to add folks that are very good at taking care of customers and help us differentiate our services.

是的，我認為沒有發生巨大的實質變化。顯然，頂級生產商的產品價格不菲。我們認為我們不僅在做好自己團隊的工作方面做得很好，而且還會定期尋找其他團隊成員。我們在這裡很少談論這件事，因為這是我們業務的正常組成部分。因此，我們一直在尋找那些非常擅長服務客戶並幫助我們實現服務差異化的人才。

Okay. And then just finally, looking at construction down this quarter, any color on the build-out of construction and how that could potentially be funded up as we move through next year or this year?

好的。最後，展望本季的建築業發展，關於建設進度以及明年或今年可能如何籌集資金，您有什麼具體情況嗎？

You're talking about just general construction lending?

您指的是一般的建築貸款嗎？

Yeah. Yeah, it was down this quarter, I'm guessing from completions, but sort of what's the growth outlook there?

是的。是的，這季度有所下降，我猜是由於竣工量減少，但成長前景如何呢？

Yeah. I would say it's kind of -- Chicago hasn't been a huge construction market. We've seen a little bit, but I think there's more upside there. I mean, multifamily, for instance, in Chicago, continues to be very strong. Some other markets are maybe struggling a little bit more because of oversupply. So I actually think we're feeling okay about where construction activity will be for this coming year.

是的。我覺得有點奇怪——芝加哥一直都不是一個大型的建築市場。我們已經看到了一些成果，但我認為還有更大的發展空間。我的意思是，例如在芝加哥，多戶住宅市場依然非常強勁。其他一些市場可能因為供應過剩而面臨更大的困難。所以我覺得我們對明年的建築活動前景還是比較樂觀的。

Janet Lee, TD Cowen.

Janet Lee，TD Cowen。

Not to beat on a dead horse, but just to clarify on your outlook for resi mortgage and mortgage warehouse, is your mid- to high-single-digit loan growth for 2026 contemplate a level of bullish, like are you assuming that mortgage rate perhaps step to the 5% handle? Like are you baking in a level of mortgage rate reduction in your mid- to high single-digit outlook? Or were you referring to an additional upside to the mid- to high single-digit loan growth if mortgage rates do dip below 6%?

我不想老生常談，但為了澄清您對住宅抵押貸款和抵押貸款倉儲的展望，您認為 2026 年貸款增長率將達到中高個位數，這是否屬於樂觀水平？例如，您是否認為抵押貸款利率可能會升至 5%？例如，你是否在中高個位數的收益率預期中考慮了抵押貸款利率下調的因素？或者，您指的是如果抵押貸款利率跌破 6%，貸款成長率在中高個位數水準上會有額外的上漲空間嗎？

Janet, the assumption would be a slightly improved mortgage market in line with the Mortgage Bankers Association projections, not any dramatic drop in rates. And Dave, a couple of minutes ago, gave you a little bit of a sense for how much volume you could get if the rates dropped. But I think to get any very, very material lift rates would have to go below 6%.

Janet，我們假設抵押貸款市場會略有改善，與抵押貸款銀行家協會的預測一致，而不是利率會大幅下降。幾分鐘前，戴夫已經向大家簡單介紹了一下，如果利率下降，可以獲得多大的成交量。但我認為，要獲得非常、非常顯著的提升，提升率必須低於 6%。

Got it. And on your NIM outlook for stable, I think there is room for interpretation and you're characterizing 4-basis-point increase in NIM this quarter as being stable, you're pretty neutral to rates it seems, and 60% beta also seems solid. What are some of the drivers that could put you to either perhaps increasing net interest margin through 2026? And are you still seeing the phenomenon of seeing some spread compressions on fully funded CRE, which you've talked about in the past quarters?

知道了。至於您對淨利差的穩定展望，我認為這其中存在解讀空間。您將本季淨利差成長 4 個基點描述為穩定，您似乎對利率持相當中立的態度，而且 60% 的貝塔係數看起來也很穩健。到 2026 年，有哪些因素可能促使淨利差擴大？您在過去幾季中談到的，已全額融資的商業房地產利差收窄現象，現在是否仍然存在？

Well, we've talked about competitive pressures largely from folks that maybe haven't grown as quickly as we have and kind of desire to do that. And so I think there still is a fairly competitive environment for fully funded loans. But some of that's transaction-based, and we're really much more focused on relationship-based arrangements. If the competitive environment changed dramatically, you could get some pressure on the margin.

嗯，我們主要討論的是來自那些發展速度可能不如我們快，但又渴望發展速度快的人的競爭壓力。所以我認為，全額貸款市場仍然競爭相當激烈。但其中一些是基於交易的，而我們真正更注重的是基於關係的安排。如果競爭環境發生劇烈變化，利潤空間可能會受到一些壓力。

Obviously, the first quarter with a couple of fewer days has a math impact on the margin. But we're actually pretty neutral, almost independent of rate changes, and given the visibility to the competitive environment, that would be the case there, too.

顯然，第一季天數減少幾天會對利潤率產生數學上的影響。但實際上我們相當中立，幾乎不受利率變化的影響，而且考慮到競爭環境的可見性，情況也是如此。

Bill Hebel, 22v Research.

Bill Hebel，22v 研究公司。

Can you just maybe talk through the fixed asset reprice that you're seeing on both the loan and the security side, kind of where roll-on, roll-off yields are in both books?

您能否詳細解釋一下您在貸款和證券方面看到的固定資產重新定價情況，以及兩筆帳簿中的展期收益率和到期收益率？

Yeah. We really haven't talked about the roll-off yield on them. We have still very little commercial and commercial real estate fixed asset repricing, most of our fixed asset repricing comes out of the premium finance portfolios. Life is fixed for a year, and so it reprices once a year. So it takes a full year for that portfolio to reprice. That portfolio is generally 12 months CMT plus 200 basis points.

是的。我們還沒有真正討論過它們的滾動收益率。我們目前商業和商業房地產固定資產重定價仍然很少，我們大部分的固定資產重定價都來自溢價融資組合。生命價值一年不變，因此每年都會重新定價。因此，該投資組合需要整整一年的時間才能重新定價。該投資組合通常為 12 個月 CMT 加 200 個基點。

So if you look back a year and see where the 12 months CMT was and at current rates, you can kind of calculate that impact and commercial premium finance is generally. It's not tied to prime, but generally has good correlation to the prime rate and their nine-month loans that are fixed rate that pay monthly. So it takes 9 to 10 months for them to generally turn over.

因此，如果你回顧一年前的情況，看看過去 12 個月的商業市場稅 (CMT) 是多少，再看看當前的利率，你就可以大致計算出這種影響以及商業保費融資的一般情況。它與基準利率無關，但通常與基準利率有良好的相關性，並且他們提供的九個月固定利率貸款按月支付。所以一般來說，它們的更替需要 9 到 10 個月的時間。

So again, if you look back at what the prime rate was 9 to 12 months ago and look at where they are now, you can probably get some good feel for that repricing. The commercial portfolio repricing on securities, it's very little cash flow. So a basis point or two here or there impact nothing material.

所以，如果你回顧一下 9 到 12 個月前的基準利率，再看看現在的利率，你就能很好地了解重新定價的情況​​了。商業投資組合對證券進行重新定價，現金流非常少。所以，一兩個基點的波動不會產生實質影響。

Got it. And where are you adding -- the securities that you added in the available-for-sale book, where were those yields coming on? Where were you purchasing?

知道了。那麼，你們在哪些方面增加了投資──你們在可供出售證券簿中增加的證券，這些收益率來自哪裡？你在哪裡購買的？

Around the 5% level.

大約在 5% 的水平。

Yeah, high 4s, 5.

是的，4分以上，5分。

I would now like to turn the conference back to Tim Crane for closing remarks. Sir?

現在我謹將會議交還給提姆·克萊恩先生，請他作閉幕致詞。先生？

Thank you, Latif. As always, for those of you on the phone, we appreciate you joining us and for your support. We start 2026 in a good place. I hope we've answered your questions. If not, you know where to find us, and we'll be working hard for all of you and for our shareholders. Thank you.

謝謝你，拉蒂夫。和往常一樣，感謝各位電話聽眾的參與與支持。2026年伊始，我們處境良好。希望我們已經解答了您的問題。如果還沒有找到我們，你們也知道在哪裡可以找到我們，我們將竭盡全力為你們和我們的股東服務。謝謝。

This concludes today's conference call. Thank you for participating. You may now disconnect.

今天的電話會議到此結束。感謝您的參與。您現在可以斷開連線了。