Veris Residential Inc (VRE) 2023 Q4 法說會逐字稿

Greetings and welcome to the various residential, Inc. fourth quarter 2023 earnings conference call. At this time, all participants are in a listen only mode. A brief question and answer session will follow the formal presentation. If any, would you require operator assistance during the conference, please press star zero on your telephone keypad. As a reminder, this conference is being recorded It is now my pleasure to introduce your host, Taryn Fielder, General Counsel. Thank you, Ms. Fielder, you may begin.

Good morning, everyone, and welcome to Veris Residential's fourth quarter 2023 earnings conference call. I would like to remind everyone that certain information discussed on this call may constitute forward-looking statements within the meaning of the federal securities laws. Although we believe the estimates reflected in these statements are based on reasonable assumptions. We cannot give assurance that the anticipated results will be achieved and we refer you to the Company's press release and annual and quarterly reports filed with the SEC for risk factors that impact the Company.

With that, I would like to hand the call over to Mahbod Nia, Veris Residential's Chief Executive Officer, who is joined by Amanda Lombard, Chief Financial Officer. Mava?

Thank you, Sharon, and good morning, everyone.

Over the past three years, various residential, we have accomplished a number of key strategic objectives, including $2.5 billion of non-strategic asset sales and the repayment of approximately $1 billion in net debt, delevering derisking and strengthening our balance sheet. We also negotiated the early redemption of our preferred interest strategically grew our multifamily portfolio by nearly 2000 units through the development and stabilization of our four new properties and one acquisition reinstated. The dividend and built a best-in-class vertically integrated platform, encompassing new personnel processes and technologies. As a result, we have successfully transformed the Company from what was once a complex, predominantly office suites to a pure-play multifamily route. Our focus now turns to the significant opportunities available to us for continued value creation that are broadly categorized into three areas fast, continued operational performance through a number of platform and portfolio optimization strategies.

Second, capital allocation initiatives focused on generating earnings and value accretion to further boost the positive baseline performance from our multifamily portfolio. And third further strengthening of our balance sheet. While a degree of earnings volatility is inevitable until we reach a mature state of the Company through a combination of these initiatives, we believe we have the potential to deliver continued relative outperformance as we seek to further enhance entity value for our shareholders over time, I'll discuss this in further detail, but first, a few words regarding our markets and the economic outlook. Unlike many national markets that are facing aggressive near term supply, the Northeast is expected to see a modest 1.5% inventory change in 2024, well below the national average of 3.5%, supporting the case for continued normalized level of rental growth in our markets, almost half of our properties are located along the Jersey City Waterfront with very limited supply as virtually no new projects were completed last year and approximately 1,200 units expected to be completed within the next two years, demand remains robust and vacancy rates are low, suggesting new supply is likely to be absorbed much in the same way it has been during the past decade in which the multifamily stock in Jersey City Waterfront has doubled to around 24,000 units, while rents have continued to rise among the key attractions of Jersey City is the fact that Class A. rents in the area reflect a discount of approximately 40% to top Manhattan submarkets and 10% of those of downtown Brooklyn. While offering generally newer product more space and a wider selection of amenities. As a result, Genesis remains an appealing submarket for prospective tenants from Manhattan. It represented approximately 20% of our move-ins during the fourth quarter. While the fundamentals across our core markets remain strong. We are in an environment of elevated macroeconomic and capital markets uncertainty, which coupled with a moderating leasing environment, warrants a degree of caution looking ahead, this is reflected in our 2024 guidance, which Amanda will discuss later.

Turning to operational results, the fourth quarter of 2023 represents the 10th consecutive quarter during which various generated sector-leading operating results, driven by strong rental growth and effective expense mitigation measures. Our Class A. multifamily portfolio continued to outperform, achieving 17.6% year over year NOI growth exceeding the high end of our guidance range despite the widespread slowdown across the multi-family sector. At year end, same-store occupancy stood at 94.4%. We continued to achieve favorable leasing and renewal spreads, despite the fourth quarter typically being a slower leasing season and rents now lapping two consecutive years of high growth, blended same-store net rental growth remained strong at 5% for the quarter and 9.3% for the full year, driven by an 8.4% increase in renewal rates, partially offset by modest growth in new leases, while the rate of rental growth in the portfolio moderated during the fourth quarter. Consistent with our commentary last quarter, it remained competitive relative to our peers who saw an average blended rent growth of around 0.9%. During the same period, our Jersey City waterfront properties continued to outperform achieving 7.6% rental growth in the fourth quarter and 11% for the full year. Despite the strong rental growth across our portfolio, affordability remained healthy with an average rent-to-income ratio of 13%, reflecting the profile of our affluent residents who have benefited from growth in their salaries and have an average annual income of over $180,000 for an average annual household income of over $300,000. Our focus on realizing operational efficiencies as evident in our NOI margin, which further improved to 64% in 2023, up from 62% in 2022 and 57% in 2021 on a normalized basis, reflecting our continued focus on expense management and proactive approach to insurance renewals and tax appeals. We remain highly focused on office suites of accidents and the creation of value for all of our stakeholders. Consistent with this, we've introduced a number of innovative technological solutions across our portfolio, including an AI based leasing assistant that has proven particularly effective at communicating directly with residents saving approximately 1,200 staff hours per month, while allowing us to attend to our residents' needs around the world. In addition to a number of centralized back-office functions, we also implemented new processes and a new hybrid Staff Leasing leasing team and a smart maintenance platform that we anticipate will allow for further operational efficiencies and enhance productivity across our portfolio without impacting the exceptional customer service that our residents have come to expect a number of these initiatives were implemented during the fourth quarter and are expected to positively contribute to our NOI and operating margins over time as part of our ongoing commitment to providing an unrivaled living experience. Last year, we launched the various promise an extensive collection of unique resin benefits, including a 30-day move in guarantee 24 maintenance guarantee and promotions from brand partners among other programs, an initiative that's been well received by our residents and is unrivaled among peers. Our commitment to excellence is further reflected in our peer-leading online reputation assessment or a score of 83 with two of our properties recently achieving at least 1% status.

Finally, I mentioned capital allocation as a focus area in this next phase, while our transformation is behind us as a company. We're not yet in a mature optimized state presenting a number of unique opportunities study. This year, we closed an additional $40 million of non-strategic sales, including the sale of a land parcel in suburban New Jersey for $10 million from the sale of our 50% stake in the metropolitan lofts joint venture in Morristown New Jersey, the 59 unit property was sold for $31 million, representing a 4% cap rate and leasing $6 million in net proceeds. Further at the end of January, the Company signed a binding purchase and sale agreement to dispose of our last remaining office property Harborside 5, to $85 million anticipated to release approximately $80 million in net proceeds. Including this asset, we have approximate $140 million of assets under binding contract at this time. The equity proceeds from the sale will provide us with valuable liquidity and optionality during this next phase and the company's evolution. We also have a further $215 million of equity in our land bank and are in the process of determining our long-term strategic sites and potential further monetization opportunities. So we will continue to work closely with the Board to determine the highest and best use for capital as it becomes available to us evaluating a broad range of capital allocation alternatives as we seek to maximize value for our shareholders. This includes, but is not limited to investing in our own portfolio, such as our planned extensive renovation of Liberty towers, the 648 unit apartment building in Jersey City, from which Once completed, we anticipate mid to high 10s return on invested capital over a four year period and an estimated $0.06 of annual core FFO contribution, representing 11% of our 2023 core FFO from the single investment of approximately $30 million while significantly enhancing the value of the asset.

Our third area of focus, the continued strengthening of our balance sheet will be discussed by monitor in more detail.

Finally, turning to our commitment to ESG. We are pleased with the recent additions to our collection of industry awards, which recognize our tremendous progress and the commitment of our employees and residents to our core ESG principles after owning global and regional recognitions from the 2023 global real estate sustainability benchmark or grasp last quarter, we are honored to have subsequently received a wheat Leader in the Light Award for Outstanding sustainability efforts in the residential sector. Our commitment to diversity, equity and inclusion was also acknowledged by the Navy. With that brand's recognition to start the year, we were honored to receive the Great Place to Work certification for the third consecutive year, a testament to our strong company culture and highly engaged employees. I would like to thank for their tireless efforts and contributions in the pursuit of excellence across our business. With that, I'm going to hand it over to Amanda, who will discuss our financial performance and guidance for 2024.

Thanks, Mark. For the fourth quarter and full year 2023 net loss available to common shareholders was $0.06 and $1.22 respectively, per fully diluted share versus net income of $0.34 and loss of $0.62 per fully diluted share in the fourth quarter and full year of 2022 core FFO per share was $0.12 and $0.33 for the fourth quarter and full year as compared to $0.12 last quarter and $0.05 and $0.44 for the fourth quarter and full year of 2022. Year-over-year core FFO was up 20%, driven by same-store portfolio growth, a full year of operations for the James stabilization of house 25 and cost reductions in both overhead and property operating costs. We realized this increase in core FFO despite the loss of $47 million in NOI from offices and the three hotels that we used to own and total per share grew fivefold year over year to $0.62 per share. Up from $0.12 in 2022, reflecting the impact of shedding CapEx intensive office assets. In addition to the factors noted driving core FFO was 20% growth, given we are now fully a multifamily company next quarter, we anticipate modifying our calculation of AFFO to only backout recurring CapEx required to maintain our assets, and we will exclude revenue-generating capital expenditures related to retail leasing in line with our peers. For the fourth quarter, this adjustment would have only been $300,000. So it's not significant and isn't expected to be in the future.

Turning to G&A, after adjustments for noncash stock compensation and severance payments, G&A was $36.5 million for the year, representing a 13% reduction as compared to 2022 and a 21% reduction since 2021. As has been the case in the past fourth quarter, G&A was higher than third quarter due to anticipated seasonal items. We've made significant progress in reducing G&A over the past two years. Despite the high inflationary environment, we continue to evaluate opportunities to reduce expenses such as those associated with the windup of Rockpoint, which are expected to be fully realized in 2025 and further technological enhancements onto our balance sheet, we ended the year with virtually all of our debt fixed and or hedged, and with a weighted average maturity of 3.7 years and a weighted average coupon of 4.5%. Net debt to EBITDA based upon EBITDA for the full year was 11.9 times an improvement or almost a turn from 2022 and three turns in 2021.

Before we begin discussing our guidance in detail, I'd like to start by emphasizing that while our transformation to a multifamily company may be complete, as Robert mentioned, there remains the possibility that earnings may fluctuate materially depending upon our capital allocation strategy and timing. Our guidance at the low end is assuming that the macroeconomic headwinds discussed by Mahbod result in a decline in job and wage growth in our markets, thus slowing the pace of brand growth, coupled with elevated expenses on the high end of our range, we've assumed higher rental revenue growth given the low supply in our markets, albeit below 2022 and 2023 levels, but still have elevated expense growth due to insurance and real estate taxes, which are difficult to predict through largely outside of the company's control in all scenarios, we assume that the only sales completed in 2024 are the two previously announced transactions. We are projecting core FFO per share of $0.48 to $0.53, which is largely driven by same-store NOI growth of 2.5% to 5%, offset primarily by a reduction in deposit interest income and one-time items recorded in 2023 to other income. Our 2024 same-store pool will include has 25 and the genes and exclude the MetLife which results in a net increase of $32 million to our 2023 same-store NOI.

On the revenue side, we project growth of 4% to 5% at the midpoint. The growth is comprised of approximately 350 basis points of rental revenue growth, primarily driven by recapture of lost relief on 100 basis points from house 25 due to the impact of retail leasing and concessions burning off. As a result of the lease up, we are forecasting modest rental revenue growth, which we believe is prudent given the past two year strength and potential economic headwinds ahead. However, rental revenue growth will be higher than our annual projection in the first quarter as a result of House's relative performance this year versus last before returning to a more normal seasonal bell curve.

On the expense side, we are projecting growth of 5% to 6%, driven largely by our non-controllable expenses at the midpoint, we see 160 basis points related to increases in insurance as we believe premiums will continue, realizing double digit increases and about 175 basis points related to expense inflation, which is offset by anticipated savings from various operational initiatives. We will also have about 215 basis points of expense growth, primarily in the second quarter when we lap the recognition of the credits received last year on the tax appeals on the two Jersey City assets.

In regards to the balance sheet and interest expense we are projecting net interest will remain relatively flat, with modest deleveraging from the sales proceeds tamping down the impact of higher rates. We have $308 million of mortgages maturing in 2024. And in July, we have an additional $159 million mortgage that steps up to above market interest rates that we will seek to revert back to market term. Given the high-quality and strong performance of these Class A. multifamily properties, lender appetite remains strong and we are working with lenders on potential solutions at this time upon refinancing of these loans, the Company has no consolidated maturities on the balance sheet until 2026. We will fall as we have in the past to hedge and are fixed the majority of our debt surrounding our guidance. At the midpoint, we expect overhead costs of real estate services, which is where we record a property management expenses and G&A to remain relatively flat, reflecting our cost saving initiatives despite anticipating ongoing inflationary pressures. While our portfolio of Class A. multifamily assets continue to perform well, our guidance reflects a company that is still emerging from a strategic transformation and an uncertain macroeconomic climate. In addition, given our reliance on sales of nonstrategic assets this year in what continues to be a challenging transaction market uncertainty around future interest rates on our upcoming maturities and tempered expectations for our markets. Given two consecutive years of extremely strong performance, there remains potential for continued volatility in our earnings, which is reflected in our guidance. This represents an extremely compelling value proposition. The highest-quality and newest class-A multifamily properties located in established markets in the Northeast, commanding the highest average rents and growth rate among peers with limited near term supply, high barriers to entry and managed by our vertically integrated best in class operating platform. We believe the multifaceted approach Robert described earlier, will be instrumental to long-term value creation for our shareholders, and we are looking forward to updating you as the year progresses.

I would also like to point you to our new investor presentation, which has been posted on our website and contains additional details about our go-forward strategy.

With that, operator, please open the line for questions in queue.

We will now be conducting a question and answer session. If you would like to ask a question, please press star one on your telephone keypad. A confirmation tone will indicate that your line is in the question queue and you may press star two, if you'd like to remove your question from the queue For participants using speaker equipment, it may be necessary to pick up your handset before pressing the star key. One moment, please while we poll for Quest. Thank you.

Our first question comes from the line of Steve Sakwa with Evercore.

Isi. Please proceed with your question.

Yes, thanks. Good morning, Robert and Amanda. Maybe just a couple things on guidance now that you're basically fully transitioned to being an apartment company. Could you just discuss what's embedded in the revenue growth as it relates to kind of occupancy, it may be your blended rent spreads and maybe any bad debt trends you could highlight things.

Good morning, Steve.

Quick question on the revenue side. As Amanda said in the scripted remarks, the assumption is that the majority around 3.5% of that is recapture of lost to lease and then 1% related to house in terms of occupancy, it's not really the primary metric that I would say we target. I would say that we do tried to maintain on around the 95%, understanding that it may fluctuate from time to time, slightly above or below that. But our strategy very much is focused on the maximization of NOI, and that's what buys us forward.

So on you're referring to the slide deck and occupancy, that's not particularly troubling at this point, and we're encouraged to see that blended net rental spreads are still positive. And yes, around the mid digit is where we see them for the next couple of months.

Okay.

I guess what I'm really trying to get at is you guys obviously had a great 23 and you handily beat your expectations. And as you sit here today, you've got to earn in on the portfolio that that might get, you know, most of the way towards your revenue grows. So does that mean you're really not assuming much in the way of market rent growth this year or I guess how conservative might you have been on setting the top-line targets, just given the macro uncertainty.

We've assumed modest rental growth for this year.

That's in that loss-to-lease recapture figure that I gave you. And the reality is that the fundamentals here, as I mentioned, still feel strong are not not not as strong as they were, but still strong on a relative basis compared to some of the other markets that we've seen, some supply challenges primarily beginning to feed in and caused some softening. So that's reflected in our guidance and we are assuming some modest rental growth this year and that's in the number and the loss-to-lease.

Okay.

And just I know and I touched on it just on the FFO. and the bridge, I guess I think if I hear you correctly, you're saying that the positive NOI growth is kind of getting offset by higher interest expense and some one-time items in '23 that don't recur in '24. Is that kind of how we're getting from 53 in '23 down to 51 at the midpoint or again, is there anything else that might be dragging FFO down in '24?

Yes, not it's not quite correct, but almost I think the way I'd think about it is you had around and this was we communicated this at the time that we had around $5 million of deposit income last year, largely related to the $350 million of cash that we were sitting on once we close Harborside. So that's $0.05 that we won't get this year.

And then you had another, call it three, $0.03 or so of other one-time positive nonrecurring contributions, too. And I think the largest of which was on payment received in a settlement that again, we don't Seabrook is not a recurring item. So that's eight $0.09 of one-time items last year that were in Q4 that you weren't getting. So if you adjust the $0.53 for the annualized, I'm sorry, I have the full year number Q4 of $0.53. By that you get to kind of $0.44, $0.45 excluding those one-time items. We also had a fairly significant loss of NOI from the sale of office, but that was offset by the interest payments on the preferred that we saved by repaying one point. So that was kind of a wash. And so you're kind of at that $0.44, $0.45 excluding the one-time items and then you look at that relative to the guidance and actually the guidance does tie with the NOI. growth that we're projecting POM, even at the midpoint, you're kind of just over $0.5, $0.51 relative to that $0.44, $0.45 from last year once you strip out the one-time items.

Great.

Thanks. That's it for me.

Thank you, Steve.

Our next question comes from the line of Anthony Paolone with JP Morgan. Please proceed.

With your question.

Thanks. Good morning.

It.

Maybe just staying on some of these guidance items, Amanda, and that flattish interest expense you noted for '24 over '23. What does that assume in terms of that step-up in rate you mentioned for the one mortgage and also the our refinancing of the a couple of maturities later in the year.

Sir, good morning.

So on first of all, I think if you look at our debt portfolio today and we did nothing assumed, there was no refinancing, we would have lower interest expense. This year of about $2 million due to the refinancing we did last year on house and port type. So whether you have achieved that savings and then when you look at the three refinancings we have this year, we assume that we will refinance them at the most advantageous market terms and on then you have to put into perspective when they would actually get paid off. And the largest of the three loans maturing this year at Liberty towers doesn't mature until October. And so the existing rate is going to be in place for on basically three quarters of the year. So you put those factors together, and that's roughly how you get it.

Yes.

So just to add to that, if I may, we hope that you mentioned in the scripted remarks, looking at a range of alternatives to refinance those loans, given the quality of the assets, given the asset class that we're in, the fortunate thing is that despite tight credit conditions, there's a lot of lender interest to lend on those. And so we're about evaluating a number of options, but generically have assumed that those or refinance in a similar way to the refinancings that we effected last year with Portside one and an house 25 with some level of debt paydown and then an interest reset that combined with the timing, have those refinancings results in interest expense being probably flattish here.

Okay.

And then just also on the balance sheet, you put in place an ATM program. Can you comment on just how you're thinking about that when you might use it or or just how it fits in?

But also, this is a program that actually we've had since 2021. So just a refresh of that program, it's a common and I would say, prudent for companies such lots to have one. And you'll see the other companies do have one hasn't been utilized thus far, but it's another another source of capital available to the Company. Should it be required today, we have significant liquidity, $95 million of liquidity between cash and availability under the line at $140 million of assets under binding contract as well as a business that is throwing off surplus cash flow, including post dividends. So think we're in a healthy position in terms of liquidity, but this is just prudent to have it in place.

Okay.

And then just a last one for me. And then I think you mentioned some kind of recurring CapEx like $300,000 or something in the fourth quarter. But if we think ahead, if we think about most apartment companies, maybe 10% of NOI. or something thereabouts might be a level of CapEx over time. Like is there any way to think about that level for you all going forward. I know you said you wanted to do anything between revenue, producers producing and recurring, but just but $300,000 you've seen strikes me as a bit low. And so just wondering if you could frame that a bit more.

Yes, sure. I think on concert off and then Bob can jump in here. If you need to on. So I think, yes, the $300,000 is really low because we don't have a lot of revenue-generating CapEx on in our portfolio that primarily relates to on the retail leasing at our multifamily assets. And so I think on yes, I don't have a target for you. We haven't given guidance on where we see those figures, but it does represent a small portion of our overall spend.

One thing I would add is, you know, we're still on leasing up house and so there will be a little bit of spend next year, but it's not material, as I stated on earlier, but that is something that we will be working on Nextra.

Yes. Look, I think the bank has very little vacancy in the portfolio. The change in demand I mentioned is really more reflective of our transformation from an office company to a multi-family company. And there's clearly a vast differential there in of the lease-up costs and the revenue one has to pass. So the CapEx one has to invest to be able to generate revenue. So that's really what that refers to and today, it's mostly just the retail on our side, and that's not a huge portion of our portfolio.

Okay.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Our next question comes from the line of Josh Dennerlein with Bank of America. Please proceed with your question.

Yes, morning, everyone. Just looking through the investor presentation, you posted online on your Slide 17 about your ongoing portfolio optimization optimization strategy is just kind of curious if you kind of if you could provide any color on the potential margin expansion opportunity from all these initiatives.

Good morning, Josh. Thank you for the question. We haven't put a number on that at this point. But the reality is that there are a number of initiatives, some targeting revenue, some more the expense side and then, as you mentioned, an element of capital investment as well with a very much a disciplined return on invested capital approach to the dollars that are spent there. And so really what we're saying here is that there are there is real potential for optimization and growth, both in NOI and in margins through effecting a multi-platform strategy over time. But the reality is some of those initiatives have a more near time and have a near-term impact some of the more medium to long term. We gave the example of Liberty towers for example, which has the potential to increase our earnings on our 2023 earnings by 11% from one asset alone. But that's a four year initiative. And and in the 1st year. We don't anticipate seeing any benefit from that through 2024. So it's difficult to give you an exact. Our numbers are for an exact period at this point but we do believe that over time we can increase both the NOI and the margin through these these initiatives.

And speaking of Liberty towers, I guess, have you and is there sort of a way to point to quantify the number of projects like this in your portfolio are or how are you thinking about the opportunity set?

We're looking at that and there potentially could be some others where we're working through, as I said, any investment we make, whether it's within our portfolio or otherwise, there's a very disciplined approach to evaluating our returns on that investment. And so this is the largest, most impactful one, given the size of the asset and the age of the asset relative to the rest of the portfolio which is why it's the primary focus, but that could be there could be others as well.

Great.

Thanks with that.

Thank you.

Thanks for the questions.

Yes, our next question comes from the line of Eric Wolfe with Citi. Please proceed with your question.

Good morning.

We've seen a couple of headlines recently about peers being subject to rent control at the properties I was just curious if you're doing anything differently from an operating or compliance perspective that's lower that risk.

Good morning. Thanks for the question. Well, look, we believe that we've taken all the necessary and appropriate steps to preserve the available exemptions from rent control ordinances, which may be applicable to the properties in our portfolio. And we have the added advantage that we have younger vintage properties and of developed most of them. So that's not a concern for us at this time.

Fair enough. And then I know you've done a lot of work on in terms of simplifying structure, the company supplying JVs and the structure there. I guess I was just curious if there's anything left for you to do in terms of cleaning those up the upside that could potentially come from that comp.

And then just as far as being able to sort of freely sell them, if you wanted to like, do you have the ability to do that and buyers assume the debt without some type of penalty there?

Your question was in relation to the joint ventures.

Yes.

yes, it's a good question. We do have a obviously the largest joint venture was the Rockpoint joint venture, but there are a number of others and we do have a not insignificant sum of equity that is embedded within those joint ventures. So as Passave, our capital allocation component of this optimization, we are looking at those. I'm looking at both the managed and the non-managed joint ventures, really understanding of what sort of returns we are deriving from the equity that's within those joint ventures, those investments and what our rights are, these are the potential exit and so and that potentially could be some further cleanup there to release equity and put it to a higher and better use power. But nothing nothing to announce today.

Okay, thank you.

Thank you.

Our next question comes from the line of Tom Catherwood with BTIG. Please proceed with your question.

Virtual.

Thank you, and good morning, everyone. On the just great to see Harborside five going into contract?

No, that was a significant lift.

Mahbod.

You've previously discussed the inefficiencies of running two disparate platforms at the same time with office going away. What are you figuring for G&A and other cost savings this year?

Good morning, Tom. Well, I think it's fair to say that we've been your question is that as we simplified to one asset class from two. Are there further savings to come operationally from that?

We have been doing that gradually over time. So this was our last office asset, but and we've sold 51 properties, the majority of which are over 30, about 33, which were office over the last three years. And so as we've gone through this rapid transformation, we've also been seeking out opportunities to generate efficiencies and organizational structure and cost structure as a result. And so it's not it's not like our cost is all there. And now we can suddenly rip the Band-Aid off and we've a huge saving. It's been happening over time gradually. Having said that, and there is potential for some further cost savings going forward, not necessarily related to the sale of Harborside five more generally, we've mentioned the repayment of Rockpoint and the obligations that we had on the dot joint venture. Some of those savings don't really kick in until the latter part of this year, given some continuing obligations that we have there. And so a long way of saying that there could be some further efficiencies, but there is a base cost of running a public company and we've already reduced G&A pretty significantly over the last three years, hard to what is now the lowest level in real terms in over two decades and very much consistent with the mid-cap peer group. So I don't think where of the average when you compare us to the right size appear and scale is obviously the biggest factor in determining the metrics you'll be looking at, but there could be potentially some further further room to reduce that from this point what the offset to that is we're still faced with inflation. Yes, it's a more modest level of inflation, but it's still there. And so timing plays a part in that as well and forces that go against us.

Could you turn to that to some extent?

Got it.

Appreciate appreciate the thoughts on.

And then mobile, you mentioned that Liberty towers project is if I heard you correct, is kind of a four year probably by some multi-phase project, but can you give us some more color maybe on both the scope and cost? And I understand that if it's a four year project cost maybe isn't fully nailed down, but maybe what you're expecting to spend towards that this year.

So it's a pretty comprehensive refurbishment of that property ranging from the units to the art, Camille and amenity space. And so the idea really is to have we are in properties in the area we know where rents are for newer product, we know where the rents are for that property. And so the return on invested CapEx assessment is a relatively easy one for us to be able to do in an insightful way. And so it's a range of things we'll be targeting from, let's say, from units to the broader areas. Total cost we anticipate to be somewhere in the region of $30 million, but obviously that's over a four year period on that that will be spent and resulting in very accretive effects of both earnings and and value as a result.

Got it.

And then I think maybe, Josh, before that asked about other kind of value add projects in the pipeline and you provided some thoughts on that. But I think you've got it appears you've got an ongoing one or at least some ongoing work at the Boulevard collection. Is that the refresh there or is that kind of more just as smaller facelifts?

Yes, that's that's I would say a smaller refresher rather than a comprehensive project equivalent to that, obviously towers one.

Got it.

And then last one for me, Amanda, you mentioned one of the caps burning off midyear. And I think you have at least one, if not a few more of the burn-off towards the end of the year. What do you build into your sources and uses for the year as far as capital to recast those caps?

So in my as I said earlier, the one loan that has a rate reset in the middle of the year. It's actually a rate reset. It's not a like a cap that burns off and so on. Our intention there is to reset that loan to market rates on whether that's with new refinancing or other options. And then as you noted, there are other caps that expire throughout the year on generally speaking, we assume that we replace them in our and it's like a fit and we generally assume that we replace them.

That's it for me. Thanks, everyone.

Thank you.

And our final question will be a follow-up from Steve Sakwa with Evercore ISI. Please proceed with your question.

Yes, thanks, Bob. But I just wanted to circle back on the question I had asked about the guidance, and you mentioned that you were going to lose interest income of about $5 million. Presumably that cash was earning interest, but presumably you did something with that cash either debt paydown or you bought an asset or you help fund the development. But I guess I would think that there's some economic return on that cash, but that doesn't seem to be in the thought process. So I guess what are we missing on that bridge? Because it wouldn't seem that that $0.05 completely disappears.

Flow, it went towards went towards repaying Rockpoint. So the way I sort of simplistically laid out is if you look at the saving from repaying Rockpoint, it's about $14 million. If you look at the NOI loss from office, it's about $14 million. So those two things are largely a wash.

And then but you had $5 million of interest income. While you were sitting on that cash waiting to repay Rockpoint plus the other $3 million of one-time nonrecurring. And those we don't get the benefit from again this year. So you could presented at a number of different ways. But simplistically, that's how I'd think about it. You ultimately had a level of nonrecurring income to the tune of $0.08, $0.09 last year, which takes you down from that [$0.53] to the mid [$0.40s] and then you build back up from there. So Bunnings wides?

Yes, the upper end of the range is flat on last year. If you look at it just in absolute terms, but it's higher quality recurring earnings relative to what we had last year, it.

Got it.

Okay.

That makes sense. Thanks for clarification.

Of course.

Thanks Dave.

Thank you.

There are no further questions at this time. I would like to turn the floor back over to management for closing comment.

Thank you, everyone, for joining us again this quarter. We're pleased to announce another period of both strategic progress and very strong operational performance and look forward to updating you again next quarter.

This concludes today's teleconference. You may disconnect your lines at this time. Thank you for your participation.