Thryv Holdings Inc (THRY) 2025 Q4 法說會逐字稿

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for joining us, and welcome to the Thryv fourth-quarter 2025 earnings call. (Operator Instructions)

I will now hand the conference over to Cameron Lessard, Senior Vice President, Corporate Development and Investor Relations. Cameron, please go ahead.

Good morning, and thank you for joining us for Thryv Holdings fourth-quarter 2025 earnings conference Call. With me today are Joe Walsh, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer; Sean Wechter, Chief Technology Officer; and Paul Rouse, Chief Financial Officer. During this call, we will make forward-looking statements that are subject to various risks and uncertainties. Actual results may differ materially from these statements. A discussion of these risks and uncertainties is included in our earnings release and SEC filings.

Today's presentation will also include non-GAAP financial measures, which should be considered in addition to, but not as a substitute for our GAAP results. Reconciliation of these measures can be found in our earnings release.

With that, I'll turn the call over to Joe Walsh, Chairman and CEO. Joe?

Thank you, Cameron, and good morning, everyone. 2025 was a solid year, and our team accomplished a lot. SaaS revenues grew 34% year over year, and SaaS adjusted EBITDA margin was strong at 16.8%. We are accelerating on the AI front. It is advancing our product road map, and we are well-positioned as a leading SaaS platform for small businesses.

I want to spend my time today clearly framing the future of Thryv, and I want to be direct about what we're building because the results you see for the quarter and our guidance for the year only make sense when viewed through that strategic lens.

Over the past several years, we've communicated our transition from legacy print and marketing services into a leading SaaS company. This has been a successful transition that's well underway. What we haven't shared yet is our next phase, not just evolving into a leading SaaS company, but becoming the platform of choice for small businesses who need to market, get found and chosen, who need to sell with automated follow ups and capture every lead, and who need to grow by reaching more customers than ever before. Let me explain why this is important and what we've been building toward.

Our Marketing Center is our fastest-growing product, a differentiated and valuable offering in the market that's growing north of 50% year over year. In fact, in 2025, it more than doubled in revenue. It's -- if you look at our old paradigm of centers, it would be our largest center. But we recognize the gap.

We were very good at helping businesses get found online and attract customers, but we needed to be equally strong at helping them convert those leads into sales, turn those customers into repeat buyers, and scale the entire cycle.

Small businesses simply don't need more leads, they need to drive more revenue. That requires mastering the full journey, get found, land the sale, deliver great service, earn repeat business, and do it again and again, a network effect with increasing efficiency. That's precisely why the Keap acquisition was so strategic for us. We acquired years of development time and product sophistication that would have been nearly impossible for us to replicate internally.

The value isn't in Keap's revenue today, it's in the platform capabilities and the engineering talent integrated into our new platform that's led us to accelerate our entire road map by multiple years. That's exactly what we've been engineering, combining Marketing Center's proven ability to grow your business and get found online with Keap's powerful capability to move leads through the sales funnel and turn them into customers, all in one unified platform.

No more separate products, no more fragmented experiences. Going forward, our entire strategy centers on one powerful offering, the Thryv platform, powered by AI, we'll be launching later in 2026.

The Thryv platform represents a fundamental paradigm shift from selling individual products and centers to delivering a unified growth platform for small businesses. This is an architectural go-to-market and operating model transformation designed to help businesses market, sell, and grow within one integrated system. Historically, our software portfolio evolved as a collection of distinct solutions. That structure worked in the sales-led world.

But small businesses don't think in terms of products. They think in terms of outcomes. How do I attract customers? How do I convert demand? How do I manage relationships? And how do I grow revenue with limited time and expertise?

The Thryv platform is built to deliver those outcomes through a single experience with three tiers aligned to where a business is in its life cycle, from a very small business just getting started to growing small businesses, and then eventually to established businesses that want one platform to run their growth. A critical foundation of this platform is our CRM and automation layer.

We invested here because the system of record is essential to building modern, product-led experiences. CRM is no longer a stand-alone tool. It's the backbone, really, that facilitates onboarding, automation, AI-driven insights, and expansion across the customer life cycle. At the same time, we're modernizing the platform around AI to reduce the effort required for customers to see value.

AI is embedded directly into the customer journey to accelerate time to value, guide next best actions, and help small businesses grow without needing specialized marketing or technical expertise. This platform strategy also underpins a major evolution in how we go to market. We're moving deliberately toward product-led growth and a product-led sales hybrid model.

Entry-level customers increasingly come in through self-service, product-led motions, while our sales organization focuses on higher value tiers, more complex needs, and expansion over time. There's one additional point I want to address directly as you think about our outlook.

Over the past several years, our SaaS growth benefited materially from these initiated upgrades, where we took marketing services clients and moved them from legacy platforms onto our modern SaaS platform. That motion was effective and helped us scale quickly, but it was always going to reach a conclusion.

As we exited 2025, that upgrade pool is largely behind us. We have some remaining in our road map for the next few years, but they're smaller as a proportion of our overall revenue growth. And going forward, our growth will be fueled by three primary drivers: organic customer acquisition, expansion, and retention. The Thryv platform is explicitly designed for this next phase.

As a result, near-term growth rates will moderate, but the underlying quality of that growth improves meaningfully as we move out. So how to think about us going forward?

Let me discuss how you should evaluate Thryv's performance because I think there's an important distinction between signal and noise in our metrics. I want to make sure you're focused on what exactly matters on our long-term business value. Our business quality is fundamentally defined by customers spending $400 a month or more. We call these quality customers. Now this isn't an arbitrary threshold we picked for convenience.

This is where our unit economics work and where retention is materially stronger, where stronger expansion is attainable, and where we're building a compounding business model. Who are these customers? These are established small businesses, typically doing close to $1 million or more in annual revenue, and they have four, five, six, even more employees. These aren't solopreneurs agonizing over a $50 expense. These are real businesses with real operational complexity.

We're spending $400, $500, $600, $700 a month on a platform that drives customer acquisition, manages their sales pipeline, and helps run their operations is, frankly, a straightforward return on investment decision.

The data on this segment tells a really clear story. Retention rates are significantly higher than our blended average, and they're improving. They tend to expand over time, adding capabilities, increasing their monthly spend and deepening their investment in the platform. This segment is growing both in absolute customer numbers and as a percentage of our total base. These are businesses that integrate Thryv into their core operations, and they see measurable returns.

Together, we become true partners in their growth. This is where we win, and this is where we're deliberately concentrating our product development, sales resources, and our customer success efforts.

Now let me address what has created noise in the overall numbers. We carry a legacy tail of smaller customers, many spending well under $200 a month that came into our base through acquisitions, upgrades initiated by us, or promotional offers that made sense at different points in our history, but don't align with our current platform value proposition or our current pricing structure.

These are fundamentally different businesses. These are micro businesses, solopreneurs, side hustles, operations where $100 or $150 a month is a meaningful recurring expense that they're constantly evaluating. We manage this segment in two ways.

First, we actively upgrade these customers into higher-value packages. We run targeted outreach, demonstrate additional capabilities. We show them the ROI of expanding their use of the platform, and it works. Many do upgrade. They see value, scale their usage, and transition into that $400-plus segment where the retention and expansion economics really kick in. And you can see evidence of this working in our ARPU trends.

The second way we manage them is we accept the fact that these smaller customers do sometimes churn, and we're okay with that outcome. While it creates some pressure on our aggregate retention metrics, it does have minimal impact on our overall revenue. So here's the key distinction. If you evaluate us purely on total customer count or on blended retention metrics that treat all customers equally, you're essentially measuring the wrong thing.

You're giving equal analytical weight to a $75 a month customer, a solopreneur who's extremely price sensitive and likely to churn software vendors regularly, and a $600 a month established business with $1 million in revenue that use Thryv as mission-critical infrastructure for their operation.

Those are not the same business relationships. They don't have the same economics, and they shouldn't carry the same weight in how you think about our business trajectory.

So what should you be measuring? Growth in quality customers spending $400 a month or more is 18-plus percent in the fourth quarter of last year. We've had steady growth in that segment. Quality customers now account for 69% of our revenue in Q4 compared to 60% in the prior year.

Marketing Center is our largest and fastest-growing center within our market sell growth strategy. At 2/3 of our SaaS revenue growing 34% in Q4, it's one of the clear signals of where this business is headed. Marketing Center, as a center, is actually growing faster than the 34%. The 34% refers to the whole kind of platform of Market cell growth. This matters enormously because Marketing Center represents an AI-enabled platform.

And these are customers saying, I want technology that helps me acquire customers, manage my pipeline, and grow my business, and I'm willing to pay for it. And here's what we're learning. Customers genuinely love software when it delivers results. Marketing Center customers fit our ideal profile almost perfectly. They're spending meaningful amounts.

They're seeing return on investment they can measure. They're expanding into additional capabilities as they see value and they're sticking with us because the platform becomes increasingly embedded in how they run their business.

This is our business model. This is what Thryv looks like at scale. It's the right product for the right customer profile. And the performance validates everything we've been building toward.

So when you're thinking about how to evaluate our performance and trajectory, don't just look at the blended customer counts or aggregate metrics. Look at the growth that we're seeing in our market sales growth strategy. Look at the $400 a month cohort expansion. Those are your forward-looking indicators. That's where you can see proof that when we execute our strategy with our target customer base, we can drive strong, sustainable SaaS growth.

Let me bring this together. The performance of MSG proves the model works. Now we're taking those learnings, combining them with Keap's customer conversion and life cycle capabilities, and scaling that proven success across the unified Thryv platform. Judge us on the quality and trajectory of our customer base, not just the quantity. That's where the real value creation story is unfolding.

With that context, let me introduce our Chief Technology Officer, Sean Wechter, who will talk about the progress we're making on the AI front. Sean has multiple tours of duty at market-leading public and private technology companies and joined our company about half a year ago.

I'll hand it over to Sean now to share a bit about what his team has been focused on. Sean?

Thank you, Joe, and good morning. My name is Sean Wechter, and I'm the CTO of Thryv. I joined Thryv in October and have been super impressed with the foundation that we've built and the large customer base we have to build on. The first two levers I pulled when I arrived was to amp up our AI efforts and our data assets, get them cleaned up. I was fortunate to be starting on third base because the products and ecosystem at Thryv are already API-rich.

Okay. So since we're going to be talking about artificial intelligence, I just wanted to go over a few caveats. Things in the AI world are rapidly evolving. And our strategy is to adopt the latest and greatest AI tools and partners, and this may change as new leaders emerge. Our strategy is also to conduct a portfolio of experiments and double down on the winners.

What we're going to cover today, we're going to go over a summary of our AI strategy and my favorite AI programs. A summary of our AI strategy at a macro level is that we want to partner with the latest and greatest AI solutions on the market. And then when we think about our strategy, we break it into a few buckets. We have the enterprise, we have our engineering team, and we have our product.

On the enterprise, my favorite author is Jim Collins. He wrote the book Great by Choice and Good to Great. And he has this concept of bullets versus canon balls, which means you try lots of things and then you double down on the winners. So we're going to do that exactly that in the sales, customer success, and engineering domains.

The reason for that is there's lots of new AI solutions hitting the market every day, and some of them are great, and some of them are not so great, and you got to sit through them all, and thus bullets versus cannon balls. On the engineering front, developer productivity is the name of the game. We want to make sure that our engineers have the latest and greatest tools in their hands. And we also want to be great at rapidly integrating and interoperating within our customers' ecosystem and our ecosystem.

And then on the product front, we want to bring AI down market to small businesses in an ambient way, meaning ideally, AI does the intended task for you, hopefully, proactively. For example, if you want to reschedule your next appointment or move a lead from one system of record to another, simply do it by voicing your request and it's done.

We want to be strongly embedded in the top AI models. We believe that that's going to make our products more sticky, and we want to partner like crazy with the winners and rapidly evolve and iterate as those winners rotate every 6 to 12 months.

Okay. My favorite uses of AI so far at Thryv is one, our budget optimizer, which is a super cool program that uses AI to transcribe calls, then used AI to score those transcripts. And then we use machine learning to optimize that data for the best lead sources and the best use of the customer's budget. When we think about our data and our scale, we have LLM data like everybody else, but we have industry data and customer-specific data that helps us on our AI journey.

Another cool program we have is the New Zealand Directory Assistance program, where we used market-leading AI voice interaction solutions with market-leading AI workflow automation solutions and our data to bring a fully AI directory assistance experience to New Zealanders.

And then we have our MCP solution, which really helps us integrate with the top frontier models. I think we were second to market in launching our native MCP solution, which made me happy because we're in the race. We're going to keep it right now as a frontier program because MCP in general is still maturing, but we're committed to being deeply embedded into the best AI models.

So to wrap up, we're working to accelerate our AI efforts meaningfully. I'm really proud of the teamwork and excited about this next chapter of the technology industry. 10 years ago, our customers needed a mix of technologies to market and sell and grow their business. 10 years from now, they're going to need a mix of technologies to market and sell and grow their business, and I'm committed to ensuring we're leading the way.

And with that, I'll turn it over to Paul Rouse, our CFO.

Thanks, Sean. Let's dive into the quarter. SaaS revenue increased 14.1% to $119 million in the fourth quarter and was within guidance. Keap contributed $16.2 million in the fourth quarter. SaaS revenue increased 34.2% year over year to $461 million for the full year.

SaaS adjusted gross margin was 70.4% in the fourth quarter. SaaS adjusted gross margin increased 70 basis points year over year to 72.7% for the full year. SaaS adjusted EBITDA increased to $20 million in the fourth quarter within guidance, resulting in an adjusted EBITDA margin of 16.8%. SaaS adjusted EBITDA increased to $73.8 million for the full year, resulting in an adjusted EBITDA margin of 16%. We ended the fourth quarter with 100,000 SaaS subscribers.

SaaS ARPU reached $373, representing a 15% increase year over year. Seasoned NRR stayed flat at 94% for the quarter. Growth in quality customers spending $400 a month or more grew by 3,000 or 18% year over year and now represents more than 20% of our client base.

Multiproduct adoption continued to accelerate in the fourth quarter. Clients with two or more SaaS products grew to 19,000 or 23% of our base compared to 15,000 or 16% of our base one year ago. Thryv clients with two or more centers was 15% at the end of the fourth quarter compared to 12% in the prior year. Marketing Services revenue was $72.6 million for the fourth quarter, in line with our guidance.

Marketing Services revenue was $324 million for the full year. Marketing Services adjusted EBITDA was $18.8 million in the fourth quarter within guidance, resulting in an adjusted EBITDA margin of 25.9% Marketing Services adjusted EBITDA was $78 million for the full year, resulting in an adjusted EBITDA margin of 24.1%.

Fourth-quarter marketing services billings totaled $60.9 million, down 34% year over year, reflecting our intentional shift in our strategy as we continue to initiate upgrades of legacy digital marketing services products for clients to our SaaS platform. The decline will persist but at a managed pace. We remain on track to exit marketing services by 2028 with cash flows lasting through 2030, providing liquidity as we fully transform to a pure-play software business.

Free cash flow was $31.1 million in 2025. And for the first time, we expect the number to grow meaningfully to $40 million to $50 million in 2026, a direct reflection of our software business having reached a size and scale that is now driving the majority of our profitability. We ended the fourth quarter with net debt reduced by $15 million to $251 million, bringing our leverage ratio to 1.7x.

Turning to our outlook for 2026. For the first quarter, we expect SaaS revenue in the range of $114 million to $115 million. For the full year, we expect SaaS revenue in the range of $461 million to $471 million. For the first quarter, we expect SaaS adjusted EBITDA in the range of $12 million to $13 million.

For the full year, we expect SaaS adjusted EBITDA in the range of $70 million to $75 million. For the full year, we expect our Marketing Services revenue to be in a range of $150 million to $160 million. For the full year, we expect Marketing Services adjusted EBITDA in the range of $30 million to $35 million.

Now I'll turn the call back over to Joe.

Thank you, Paul. You will have noticed in Paul's guidance that's a little bit conservative on the quarterly guide and the guide for the year for SaaS. We have a tremendous amount of faith in our market, sell, grow platform, this initiative I talked about in the opening. We basically have struck oil. This is really selling very quickly and working well.

But as we are setting up this transition, we expect slower growth for a few quarters, reaccelerating later in the year, and going strong into next year. And so we're taking a conservative guide as we work our way through that transition.

I'll turn it over now to the operator for questions.

(Operator Instructions) Arjun Bhatia, William Blair.

Some interesting announcements there. Joe, with the new platform, maybe we can touch on that first. I'm just curious how you kind of envision the adoption kind of curve of the new platform? Like is there going to be a migration of existing customers? Like what are the kind of -- is that disruptive for customers?

How do you plan to do that? And then just how long might it take before the new platform is sort of fully ramped up for your entire customer base and you're selling it to new customers as well?

That's a great question. Thanks, Arjun. So it's interesting. We -- Marketing Center has been around, and it's been steadily building, and we've been sort of dialing it in. And it's fitting in beautifully in a market where there are a lot of people with vertical CRMs and other kinds of offerings.

But we're uniquely placed in this ability to find customers. We still own and control lots of big directories like YP and Super Pages, and we've got a big network of partners like Yelp and Nextdoor and many, many others, both here in the US and over in Australia and New Zealand. So we're really plugged in, and we're really good at finding new customers and bringing them in.

This top of the funnel thing we've always been amazing at. What Keap gave us was it gave us sort of the bottom of the funnel. the ability to follow up and convert, and then once the customer was a customer to nurture them for more business for a longer lifetime value run. And what we've done is we've engineered everything together into one platform. And the more progress we've made on that and the more we've met with customers and begun to put that in place, the more we realize that we've just captured lightning in a bottle.

This is really good. And you don't have to get somebody to take out their other CRM to put it in. We can actually be agnostic about what CRM you have, and we can work with you.

And it's really opened up a whole new Vista for us of people to work with, the partners, the whole bit. So we're really excited that this is a space that we have a tremendous right to win in. I'm not sure we have a right to win in just the kind of original BC product. There are people that are doing a lot of work deeply down into verticals, mapping processes in particular industries and all that. And that is a harder put, if you will.

So back to your question, how do we see it sort of developing? Well, it's -- the Market sell grow platform is made up of some bits that we've been doing for a while and some of the newly developed AI kinds of tools that Sean talked about a couple of minutes ago. We've sort of replatformed everything and are building it in that way. So it's well over $300 million in revenue already.

And yes, there's a little bit of cannibalization where it's eating up some of business center customers who may be -- who bought it, who really more had an interest in growing in lead gen and some of those tools. So there are -- there is -- there has been some people moving from Business Center over to this exciting new platform.

And look, you know how this happens in a company. When you bring out something that's just hot and really working well, everybody gets excited about it. And so it becomes the thing that they really believe in, and they want to talk to customers about.

So in some cases, that enthusiasm is transferring into them moving customers over because they feel it's a better fit, and it's going to really help them. So we're still selling some new business center customers, and we have a large, large installed base of business center customers that are using it and doing well on it.

But it doesn't have the heat and light that it had before because the market sell grow platform has really captured everyone's imagination, and that's where the focus is. So hopefully, that answered your question. There's kind of a little bit of cannibalization. It's mostly selling new out there, but there is a little bit of people moving from business center too.

I appreciate that color. And then going back to just how you think about your customer base and the new sort of segmentation around quality customers.

How should we just view the retention metrics and LTV dynamics of this quality customer cohort? And how does it differ? Or maybe the better way to phrase it is, what's the overlap with the seasoned customer metric? Are these all tenured customers or are there new customers that are also spending over this $400 mark per month?

There are definitely some new customers that are coming in right away. I mean if you look at what our field sales force is selling right now, on average, they're selling customers that are over $400 a month. They're out there selling big, and they're having a lot of success selling this kind of fully hatched program. We tried to talk about it a little bit in the press release and prepared remarks. We've been transforming the directory business of the past into this SaaS business.

And in so doing, we -- some of the legacy platforms that date back to some of the old regional Bell operating companies that were bought and rolled up and were a part of this where some of these platforms were 20 years old and older that clients were running on. And we literally needed to shut those down and get them off. And we landed them on our modern SaaS platform, and we gave them a lot more value. We gave a lot more functionality, a lot more tools. And we moved them over without disrupting them with a big price increase.

And so a lot of these people came over, and they were below our rate card and not necessarily natural SaaS customers or natural customers that really were wanting to invest and build and grow their business. And so we've been working with them trying to get them engaged with their tools. And in many cases, they are getting engaged, and they're buying more and they're becoming quality customers. But in some cases, they're saying, look, I don't really care about this. It's not really what I want, and they're churning away.

And that's part of why you're seeing noise in the gross customer number and why we've kind of pointed you to what's going on under the hood. You've got this $300 million-plus business that's growing fast. It's really strong, and you've got this big client base, about 69% of our clients are this quality metric, where we make good margins. These are a little bit larger businesses. These are businesses that have the ability to buy more from us.

And so I get it. There's so much noise in our numbers. It's hard to kind of see it all. But that's kind of been our approach.

Zach Cummins, B. Riley Securities.

Joe, I wanted to ask you how your go-to-market approach is going to evolve now with this greater focus on quality customers. Can you just dive a little bit deeper in terms of how you're thinking of serving the lower end versus your direct sales approach and maybe even working with some larger partners over time?

Yes. Thank you. We made sort of a natural mistake, if you will, in the early going. We were anxious to build a software company. We're anxious to talk to anybody that would talk to us to sell it.

So we sold anybody who would talk to us. And in the process, we did a massive experiment to figure out who our ideal client profile is. And we sold a lot of solopreneurs, very small businesses where they may have come in for an initial kind of $300 a month-ish kind of deal. And that was a big bill for them, and they worried every month about it, and they weren't necessarily able to fully utilize all the functionality in the software.

At the same time, we went out and we sold some bigger businesses. And we saw them really engage with the product, really begin to use it. We saw them buy more and so on. So what we pretty much have decided is that our phenomenal in-person sales organization should really spend its time with the larger businesses. And we should develop more of a untouched by human hands motion for the smaller.

And so we're -- we've been building this sort of product-led growth approach where for a smaller business that wants to come in, we're going to have products that they can buy, and they'll be able to do that. There'll be all kinds of communities, frequently asked questions, and videos they can watch, and so on. But we aren't necessarily going to deploy somebody who makes 6 figures out there calling on them to help them with that.

The economics of that just are tough to support. And so we really have put most of our emphasis and most of our focus on marketing to and prospecting for larger businesses, more businesses with more like $1 million of revenue or close to it, and less of the kind of very, very small person that works alone or maybe a two-employee business. And those we hope will still come in and come in through our product-led growth motion that we're developing. And we think the majority of where we'll spend our time is with these bigger businesses.

And just one follow-up question around the launch of the new platform. Can you clarify how much more development work needs to be done and when you're planning to really kind of broadly roll out this new MSG platform as you referred to it?

Yes. We're selling it right now, and it's going really, really, really well. What's happening, though, is we're doing more work to put more functionality, and I don't know if any product is ever really done. And bringing it further along, there are some really bold AI initiatives where we use the MCP layer, and we're making it do all kinds of interesting things that are sort of happening in the lab that will be coming into the product fairly soon. So it is progressing nicely.

We have a trial version out and a small beta that will be expanding more broadly fairly soon. So it is all coming together now. So it's not like a flash cut where we're not doing it, then we're going to do it. We're selling it right now. But there's dramatically improved versions of it that we plan over the course of the year.

Matt Swanson, RBC.

I was curious on the years of kind of how you're pricing the new platform. I think it makes a lot of sense from kind of a streamlined standpoint. What are you seeing? Or kind of what are your expectations in terms of how your quality SaaS customers are going to transition over at what tier? And does that have any kind of distinct differences from a pricing standpoint compared to the existing products they're on?

I think it's more -- so it's a great question because you've got different kinds of businesses. You've got the very small kind of dreamer just getting started business. And we are going to have a product for them. As I mentioned, we're not really going to talk to them about it per se. We're going to let them come to our website and sort of do it on their own.

And then we've got -- we're going to have kind of a mid-price thing that's a nice step up for those people who start on that [trailer] tier. And that second tier might also be an area that an in-person salesperson might be able to land somebody on. And then there'll be a higher tier. My experience is to scale anything, you need to keep it relatively simple. It can't really be a blizzard of different choices and all that just becomes too confusing.

And so that's why we're coming up with this more streamlined, simple approach. So there'll be add-ons and things that you can buy over and above that initial triplicate of choice. so that we can continue to grow the customer. But we will have an offering at the low end for a smaller business so that they can come and they can buy. But we're not going to deploy a whole bunch of sales or services costs against that.

And maybe following up right where you left off there, and just kind of thinking about some of the efficiency gains that you could have by having such a simplified or centric go-to-market approach. Would the plan be to end of life the other centers or other products over time? Or is it just too early to think about that?

I think it's too early to think about that. I mean the Market cell growth platform is pulling across our product range, all the things that we think support that. So what was it at onetime reporting center is powerfully in the middle of that now. Business Center is a separate thing. And I mentioned, quite honestly, there are some numbers of customers that have opted more toward the Market cell grow piece because that's really what they want.

They really want the phone to ring. They really want a bunch of business coming in. And they maybe weren't prepared to really fully use all the functionality of an operating system in their business. So that's kind of right. That's the way it's working out.

And that's part of the reason that you're seeing a little flatness in our top line revenue growth in our guidance is we're trying to give a little room because we're seeing some of that cannibalization.

In terms of the longer term, we've got a very large base of business center customers engaged and using it and happy. And we don't intend to kick them off. We want to continue to serve them, and we're really happy with them. And in some cases, they've got Business Center and they also are buying all the marketing tools and doing that as well. But we've more cleaned up and segregated that.

So we feel like we can scale bigger, better, faster and run a more efficient business with a more streamlined set of product offerings.

Jason Kreyer, Craig-Hallum Capital Group.

So Joe, I was wondering if you could talk more about the AI functionality that you're embedding in the platform, how that creates more value or more efficiency for your customers?

I'd love to. I'm going to share my answer with Sean. I'm going to give him a look at it because Sean is -- I think his middle name might be AI. He's Mr. AI. But I'll start a little bit, and then I'll give it to Sean. There's just a long list of different things that AI can do. And I know there's a lot of debate out there about will AI replace software or will it augment it or whatever.

Look, the price point that we're operating here it's not worth your time to sit down and try to figure out how to hack together your own stuff. I mean we're organizing and pulling it all together and making everything in a complete package to help you accomplish growing your business.

And most of the people that we work with don't have a lot of expertise in marketing. They don't have a lot of expertise in AI. They're good plumbers or carpenters or whatever they do, and they really need us.

So it's sort of AI with human in the loop, but the whole idea is this platform becomes easier and easier to use. If I'm really honest with you, our biggest problem over the last decade has been getting the small business to really engage and do even small things that they need to do to make the whole wheel work.

And the AI can come in now, and it can do those things to kick it over and create a cycle that works. and the automations that we got and keep do that same thing. So there's a lot of really cool stuff, like customer calls you and this thing can capture the transcript of the call.

It can grade, was it a one through five lead? Where should it go in your lead funnel? It can follow up on that thing for you. It's really incredible stuff it's doing. So Sean, why don't you just -- I know you've got some observations the way you think about it.

I can't seem to shut you up about it when we talk about it.

Yes. I'm equally excited about it as well, Joe. And Jason, we sit in the value chain between buyers and sellers and have for a long time. So that means we've got a lot of really rich data around that from call transcripts to leads. to form fills.

And so we're just trying to get creative on how to use that to benefit the actual small builder and small business. And so -- and then there's just things that a small business needs to evolve into like we call it AEO answer engine optimization. You had SEO, well, now you have to show up in all the frontier models and helping them do that. We have website generation. We have social posting, call analysis, AI receptionist, they're missing calls.

And so they can now have an AI help them take that call, transcribe it, moving data around from a mix of ecosystem solutions in their ecosystem, systems of record for finance and other CRMs and so forth.

And so eliminating that complexity is pretty exciting. So when I talked about our strategy, there's new awesome tools that are popping up left and right, and we're committed to taking the best of them, simplifying them and bringing them down market to our customers. And that's really just a race without an end. Did that answer your question?

That was great. I appreciate that. Maybe just one follow up for me. Curious if you have any expectations for churn as you migrate customers kind of from where they are into these higher-value packages?

Yes. I mean we're seeing churn overall gently trend down. Now we definitely had a little bit of a hump of churn following the massive migration. I mean you'll remember if you've been tracking our numbers closely, we went from around 50,000 customers to 100,000 really fast. And that was just a whole bunch of systems that we were sunsetting in the old phone company marketing services and Yellow Pages environment that we wanted to move over.

And so we've had a chance now to really work with those customers. And some of them, we worked with them out and some we worked with them up. And there's a little bit more of that to go. But I would -- the way I would say, Jason, is I think that when you look at our business over the next, say, three years, kind of the arc of where we're going, we are suddenly moving upmarket. And as we move upmarket, I think we'll get lower churn.

Just when I study the base that we have now, those customers that are down in that lower spend tier or the smaller businesses have churn profiles that are higher than the bigger businesses that we're selling. When we sell a business that has 8 or 10 employees and maybe $1.5 million of revenue or something like that, they tend to be very stable and behave really well.

They have a persistent need for leads. They have an employee staff that's counting on the business ticking over and doing that next thing. When we sell a solopreneur or a two-employee business, they sometimes hit a rough patch and just decide to go get jobs and stop doing the business anymore.

And it becomes a churn, has nothing to do with our software. So I think my expectation is where we're trying to run the business is for lower churn over time. Now I'm not saying we're going to go to enterprise level churn because we still are dealing with small businesses. But I think you'll see it trend down over time.

There are no further questions at this time. This concludes today's call. Thank you for attending. You may now disconnect.