Triumph Financial Inc (TFIN) 2024 Q4 法說會逐字稿

Good morning. It's 9:30 in Dallas and we're excited to chat with you this morning. Thank you for your interest in Triumph and thanks for taking the time to join us to discuss our Fourth Quarter and Full Year 2024 Results. With that, let's get to business. Aaron's letter last evening, discussed the quarter's results and introduced a new segment. We are excited about many things happening at Triumph now, but probably most excited about the opportunities we see developing from the density established in our network. We are helping America's truckers get paid with greater speed accuracy and transparency than was ever possible before. And we're allowing our partners to benefit from our transportation technology investments that quarterly shareholder letter published last evening and our quarterly results will form the basis of our call today. However, before we get started, I would like to remind you that this conversation may include forward-looking statements. Those statements are subject to risks and uncertainties that could cause actual and anticipated results to differ. The company undertakes no obligation to publicly revise any forward-looking statement. For details please refer to the Safe Harbor statement in our shareholder letter published last evening, all comments made during today's call are subject to that Safe Harbor statement with that. I'd like to turn the call over to Aaron for a welcome and to kick off our Q&A. Aaron?

早安.現在是達拉斯時間上午 9:30，我們很高興今天早上與您聊天。感謝您對 Triumph 的關注，也感謝您抽出時間與我們討論我們的 2024 年第四季和全年業績。好了，讓我們開始做正事吧。亞倫昨晚的信討論了本季度的業績並介紹了一個新的部分。我們對 Triumph 現在發生的許多事情感到興奮，但最讓我們興奮的可能是我們從網路建立的密度中看到的發展機會。我們正在幫助美國卡車司機以前所未有的速度、準確度和透明度獲得付款。我們正在讓我們的合作夥伴從我們的運輸技術投資中受益，昨晚發布的季度股東信和我們的季度業績將成為我們今天電話會議的基礎。然而，在我們開始之前，我想提醒您，這次對話可能包含前瞻性陳述。這些聲明受到風險和不確定性的影響，可能導致實際結果與預期結果不同。該公司不承擔公開修改任何前瞻性聲明的義務。有關詳細信息，請參閱昨晚我們發布的股東信中的安全港聲明，今天電話會議上發表的所有評論均受該安全港聲明的約束。我想將電話轉給 Aaron，以表示歡迎並開始我們的問答環節。阿倫？

Thank you, Luke and thank you all for joining us today. As always, I hope that you found the shareholder letter valuable, both in looking back at 2024 and also looking ahead into the future. I am sure some of our announcements in the letter will generate many questions so we will get to those quickly. But before I do, I want to say just a couple of things, touching 50% of all brokered freight transactions in the United States is a big deal. It's worth celebrating eclipsing over $100 billion in total payments since we created our payment segment is also a milestone worth celebrating and it's those milestones and all that went into doing those things that has paved the way for where we go from here. It puts us in a position to help the freight industry transact confidently, that is our brand promise. And then we know that if we do that with ever improving offerings that our investors are going to be rewarded, our team members will share in this success because our customers will be delighted and that's the work we're excited to do with that. We look forward to taking your questions.

謝謝你，盧克，也謝謝大家今天加入我們。像往常一樣，我希望您發現這封股東信很有價值，無論是回顧 2024 年還是展望未來。我相信我們在信中宣布的一些內容將引發很多疑問，因此我們會盡快解答這些問題。但在此之前，我想說幾件事，觸及美國所有經紀貨運交易的 50% 是一件大事。值得慶祝的是，自從我們創建支付部門以來，總支付額已超過 1000 億美元，這也是一個值得慶祝的里程碑，正是這些里程碑以及為實現這些目標所做的一切為我們今後的發展鋪平了道路。它使我們能夠幫助貨運業自信地進行交易，這是我們的品牌承諾。然後我們知道，如果我們做到這一點，並不斷改進產品，我們的投資者將獲得回報，我們的團隊成員將分享這一成功，因為我們的客戶會很高興，這就是我們很高興要做的工作。我們期待回答您的問題。

(Operator instructions) Our first question will come from Timothy Switzer, KBW.

（操作員指示）我們的第一個問題來自 KBW 的 Timothy Switzer。

Now that we have entered 2025 and have a line of sight into which partners will be online this year. How much volume they will bring? Are, are you able to provide, some kind of quantified ranges around what payment volume will look like towards the end of the year and the associated pull through the revenue on that? Or perhaps like a broad range on what the growth inflection looks like in the back half of the year, particularly with CHRW coming online?

現在我們已經進入2025年，並且已經對今年哪些合作夥伴將會上線有了大致的了解。他們會帶來多少銷售量？您能否提供一些量化的範圍，例如年底的支付量以及相關的收入？或者可能對今年下半年的成長轉折點有一個大致的了解，特別是隨著 CHRW 上線？

And I think what is the most important metric to keep measuring and keep track of for the payments volume growth, success is that of the market share. And so as we said in the letter, we've eclipsed the 50% market share, the goalpost and now we've moved that out for ourselves and our goals at the end of this year is to be at 60% to 65% of market share. And we have a clear line of sight into that. The other metric to look at is to continue to watch EBITDA performance and improvement as we will continue to improve those metrics throughout the year as well. Certainly, revenue associated with some newer deals will be in the second half of the year and new products. So yes, you'll look for that to be weighted there. But again, even improvement and 60% to 65% market share, anything you'd want to add to that, Aaron.

我認為衡量和追蹤支付量成長、成功的最重要指標是市場佔有率。正如我們在信中所說，我們的市佔率已超越了 50% 的目標，現在我們已實現這一目標，我們的目標是在今年年底達到 60% 至 65% 的市佔率。我們對此有著清晰的認知。要關注的另一個指標是繼續關注 EBITDA 的表現和改進，因為我們將在全年繼續改進這些指標。當然，一些較新的交易相關的收入將出現在下半年和新產品中。所以是的，您會尋找那裡的權重。但是，即使有所改善，市佔率達到 60％ 至 65％，Aaron，您還想補充什麼嗎？

I think it's a great question. Melissa hit on the things that we would call knowable. These are things we have enough history to predict and say with specificity. But I think what's embedded in your question and it's a question, frankly, I'm interested to see. It was just yesterday that our partner, C.H. Robinson actually began the rollout of this marketing campaign of Robinson Financial, which we're tremendously excited to support behind the scenes, because that's what we are as it relates to the market behind the scenes. And so they're reaching out to thousands of carriers on a rolling basis. Now what the pull through will look like from that in adding new factoring-as-a-service customers to Robinson Financial, which we support behind the scenes and the pull through will look like on adding new LoadPay customers is impossible to tell you. What I can tell you this morning is in the the Slack channels that we all monitor in real time with just what went out yesterday, there has been an an explosion of activity but you can't build a trend line off that.

我認為這是一個很好的問題。梅麗莎觸及了我們稱之為可知的事物。我們有足夠的歷史來預測和具體地說這些事情。但我認為你的問題中隱含著什麼？就在昨天，我們的夥伴 C.H.實際上，羅賓遜已經開始了羅賓遜金融 (Robinson Financial) 的營銷活動的推出，我們非常高興能夠在幕後提供支持，因為這與幕後的市場息息相關。因此，他們正在陸續聯繫數千家營運商。現在，我們在幕後提供支援的 Robinson Financial 增加新的保理即服務客戶之後的效果會是怎樣，而增加新的 LoadPay 客戶之後的效果會是怎樣，我們無法告訴您。今天早上我可以告訴你們的是，在我們即時監控的 Slack 頻道中，僅從昨天發布的情況來看，活動數量呈爆炸式增長，但你無法由此構建趨勢線。

So I've said and I've tried to make it clear the way we structured our deal with our partner we want Robinson to be exceptionally successful in this. And for them success means improving the carrier experience and of course that means monetizing it. But the way our deal with them works is we chose to take our opportunity the financial incentive for what we're doing on the back end. We're going to see as we grow revenue through this density gain and FaaS and LoadPay and the things we're doing around it, you'll start to see that in the back half of the year but it is way too early to tell you what that's going to do to EBITDA margin or revenue growth, we just don't know. What I would point out to you is despite the fact that we're making all the investments required to do those things right now our EBITDA margin is still improving. So we're trying to be really thoughtful about this. And we're really excited about the future and those two things have to live together, that's the tension between being profitable in the present and preparing for an exciting future. So that's how we think about it. I hope that gives you the color you're looking for.

所以我已經說過，並且我試圖清楚地表明，我們與合作夥伴達成的交易結構表明，我們希望羅賓遜在這方面取得非凡的成功。對他們來說，成功意味著改善營運商體驗，當然也意味著將其貨幣化。但我們與他們打交道的方式是，我們選擇抓住機會，為我們在後端所做的事情提供財務激勵。我們將看到，隨著我們透過密度增加、FaaS 和 LoadPay 以及我們圍繞它所做的事情來增加收入，您將在今年下半年開始看到這一點，但現在告訴您這將對 EBITDA 利潤率或收入增長產生什麼影響還為時過早，我們只是不知道。我想指出的是，儘管我們正在為實現這些目標進行所有必要的投資，但我們的 EBITDA 利潤率仍在提高。因此我們正在努力認真考​​慮這個問題。我們對未來感到非常興奮，這兩件事必須並存，這就是當前盈利和為激動人心的未來做準備之間的張力。這就是我們的想法。我希望這能給你想要的顏色。

And Aaron also your comments in the shareholder letter, which is really helpful, it's great, about how AI and machine learning models that kind of reduce the value of network transactions for factors. Are you seeing any other areas where AI or other technology advances are maybe impacting your value proposition elsewhere or like the moat you have in some of your products?

Aaron 也在股東信中提到了你的評論，這些評論非常有幫助，非常棒，關於人工智慧和機器學習模型如何降低網路交易的價值。您是否發現其他領域的人工智慧或其他技術進步可能會影響您在其他領域的價值主張或類似您某些產品的護城河？

And so just let me unpack that a little more, and I know others will touch on this and so I don't want to put it all out there now, but let me unpack that a little bit more just so you're clear on. There's two forces that are at work when we talk about the monetization and the adoption of network transactions. And those two forces were things I didn't fully understand in Q3 of 2023 or even beyond when we conceptualize this idea that we need to connect payors and payees, and that thesis is entirely right. But the specifics of how we're going to monetize this was precisely wrong but directionally correct. Like the value was there but there's two ways in which the value is migrating from where we thought we would realize it to another area. So the first thing, and and just before we get into AI and ML. One of the things we've learned and like mea culpa we we want you to understand this is we built a pipe of structured data about this big. And when you look at the legacy software that most factors use they can ingest it in a pipe about that big. And that's just the technical debt that happens when you use an off-the-shelf product that's several years old even if you've built technology around it.

因此，請讓我進一步解釋一下這個問題，我知道其他人會談及這個問題，因此我現在不想把它全部說出來，但是請讓我進一步解釋一下這個問題，以便你們清楚。當我們談論貨幣化和網路交易的採用時，有兩種力量在起作用。當我們概念化需要連結付款人和收款人的想法時，我在 2023 年第三季甚至以後還沒有完全理解這兩種力量，而且這個論點是完全正確的。但我們關於如何將其貨幣化的具體細節卻是錯誤的，但方向是正確的。就像價值在那裡，但有兩種方式可以將價值從我們認為可以實現的地方轉移到另一個地方。所以，在我們進入人工智慧和機器學習之前，第一件事就是。我們學到的一件事，就像我希望你理解的那樣，我們建立了一個關於這個大數據的結構化資料管道。當您查看大多數因素使用的遺留軟體時，它們可以將其吸收到大約那麼大的管道中。這就是當您使用已有數年歷史的現成產品時產生的技術債務，即使您圍繞它構建了技術。

And dealing with technical debt that's a problem all companies who touch technology deal with and asking factors to modify their product, a core operating system they don't even totally control in a three year down market was a tall ask. So if the pipe that they can ingest the data we give them is not as big then the value proposition to them is different. So that's one thing, that's a learning. That's what we've learned from this that network transactions are valuable just not quite as valuable as we thought. The second piece, which is more what we've lived on our side of the transaction is this concept of what can a model trained on all of our historical data do without a human. And three year or in 2023 I did not see it, it has been remarkable to see. We are purchasing 75% of our invoices for our small carriers and that's going to move upstream too with what's coming without a human being ever touching it before funding, that did not exist in 2023 and certainly not before that. And that we learned is structured data is helpful in that, there's lots of ways it's helpful. But that the model is so good that even when it doesn't have structured data, it can make very accurate, better-than-human accurate decisions. And so as we extrapolate broadly to what we're working on, and we haven't talked about this a bunch with you all, but what Melissa and her team are working on is what we call touch-free processing. So I know people don't live this every day.

所有接觸技術的公司都面臨技術債問題，而要求各方面修改他們的產品（在三年的市場低迷時期，他們甚至無法完全控制核心作業系統），這是一個很高的要求。因此，如果他們接收我們提供的資料的管道不夠大，那麼對他們來說價值主張就會不同。這是一件事，這是一種學習。我們從中了解到，網路交易很有價值，但並不像我們想像的那麼有價值。第二部分，這更符合我們在交易中所實踐的概念，即一個基於我們所有歷史資料進行訓練的模型在沒有人工的情況下能做什麼。三年或 2023 年我沒有看到它，看到它已經很了不起了。我們正在為我們的小型承運商購買 75% 的發票，而且這也將向上游移動，而未來在提供資金之前從未有人接觸過它，這在 2023 年是不存在的，當然在那之前也不存在。我們了解到結構化資料很有用，它有很多用途。但是該模型非常好，即使沒有結構化數據，它也可以做出非常準確、比人類更準確的決策。因此，當我們廣泛推斷我們正在進行的工作時，我們還沒有和大家討論過這個問題，但梅麗莎和她的團隊正在進行的工作是我們所謂的非接觸式處理。所以我知道人們並不是每天都過著這樣的生活。

But if you just visualize it, if on the broker side and that's the payor, that's the person who owes the money. If our audit product and our audit and payment feature put together can process an invoice and tell and decide for the broker based on rules that they set that that invoice is appropriate for payment without a human being touching it, the audit system is -- the audit process goes from days to seconds. On the payee side, if the instant decision model with all that we built into it can make -- look at historical predictions for this carrier, this account debtor and these things and in seconds decide this is probably a good invoice and then those two systems can touch each other and say, if we present this invoice to you in this way, would it be approved? And the system on the other side says, yes, it would be approved, that's a quantum leap forward. That is AI and ML changing how network transactions work, but it's still that very thing, it is a network, but the technology has moved so far so fast that, yes, it's changing. I don't know how to speak to our moat, so to speak. I think we have the most sophisticated product in the market on the factoring side. I think we -- our product on the broker side is highly sophisticated and we have the integrations, we have the customer trust to go do this. So the world is changing. It changed from what I thought a few years ago and we try to lay that out in the letter so investors can understand. And you can also understand how we're working to be part of the change and not disintermediated by it.

但如果你想像一下，如果在經紀人方面，那就是付款人，那就是欠錢的人。如果我們的審計產品和審計與支付功能結合起來可以處理發票，並根據他們設定的規則告知經紀人並決定該發票是否適合支付，而無需人工接觸，那麼審計系統就可以將審計過程從幾天縮短到幾秒鐘。在收款人方面，如果我們內建的即時決策模型能夠——查看這個承運人、這個帳戶債務人的歷史預測，並在幾秒鐘內決定這可能是一張好的發票，然後這兩個系統可以互相接觸並說，如果我們以這種方式向您出示這張發票，它會被批准嗎？而另一邊的系統卻說，是的，它會被批准，這是一個巨大的飛躍。這就是人工智慧和機器學習改變網路交易工作方式的原因，但它仍然是網絡，只是技術發展如此之快，是的，它正在改變。可以這麼說，我不知道該如何談論我們的護城河。我認為我們在保理方面擁有市場上最先進的產品。我認為我們——我們在經紀人方面的產品非常複雜，我們有集成，我們有客戶信任來做到這一點。所以世界正在改變。這與我幾年前的想法不同，我們試圖在信中闡明這一點，以便投資者能夠理解。你也可以了解我們如何努力參與改變而不是被改變所阻礙。

Really appreciate the in-depth answer there. And if I could get one...

非常感謝那裡的深入回答。如果我能得到一個…

I think we need to go to the next person in the queue and we'll come back. If we don't hit them all, Tim, we'll certainly come back and answer it.

我認為我們需要去找隊列中的下一個人然後再回來。提姆，如果我們沒有全部解決，我們一定會回來回答。

All right. Our next question will come from Matt Olney, Stevens. Your line is open. Please go ahead.

好的。我們的下一個問題來自馬特·奧爾尼 (Matt Olney)、史蒂文斯 (Stevens)。您的線路已開通。請繼續。

I want to dig more into the Intelligence segment that you discussed in the letter. I'm curious within this new segment kind of what's the go-to-market strategy for this initiative? Who are the clients you're going to be targeting, are they existing or new clients? And how will you target these customers? And just trying to get a better idea of kinda what the revenue ramp could look like for this segment over the next two years?

我想更深入地了解您在信中討論的情報部分。我很好奇，在這個新的領域中，這項計畫的行銷策略是什麼？您要瞄準的客戶是誰？您將如何瞄準這些客戶？只是想更了解一下未來兩年該部門的收入成長情況如何？

Yes, totally understand that question, Matt. So the customers that we are going to start with are largely the 560 TriumphPay customers that we currently serve. Now it will expand beyond that. But I've said to you before the top 1,000 freight brokers control 90% of the $110 billion brokered truckload market. So the people we will be taking that's out to will either already be a Triumph customer or they will certainly know our name, because we touch everybody in brokered -- frankly, in all of truckload. The reason we're doing it is because some of our largest customers have said to us, hey, there are some data things we would like to get from you. And we would like to get it from you, because number one, you are not going to end up being a competitor. You are a bank, you are not a brokerage, you don't move freight. And some of the data providers in this industry have -- they don't have neutrality but you have neutrality. And so we trust you with our data. We would like for you to give it back to us in a way that helps us run our business more efficiently.

是的，馬特，我完全理解這個問題。因此，我們首先要服務的客戶主要是我們目前服務的 560 位 TriumphPay 客戶。現在它的規模將超越這一點。但我之前說過，前 1,000 名的貨運代理商控制著價值 1,100 億美元的整車貨運經紀市場的 90%。因此，我們將把這些產品帶給那些要么已經是 Triumph 客戶，要么肯定知道我們的名字，因為我們與經紀人中的每個人都有聯繫——坦率地說，與所有卡車司機都有聯繫。我們這樣做的原因是因為我們的一些最大的客戶告訴我們，嘿，我們想從你們那裡獲得一些數據。我們希望從您那裡得到它，因為首先，您不會成為我們的競爭對手。你是銀行，你不是經紀公司，你不運送貨物。這個行業中的一些數據提供者——他們不具有中立性，但你有中立性。因此我們相信您能將我們的資料交給您。我們希望您能以能夠幫助我們更有效地開展業務的方式回饋我們。

And the second thing is, we would like to consume this data from you because you have more of it than anyone. You pay more truckers than anyone. Everyone knows that, they see that, they see what we touch. And then, we would like to consume this data from you, because you have precision in your data. You actually have what was paid, not what was asked, not what was claimed, not surveys, like payments don't lie. And so for those three reasons, which I put in the letter, that is why the customers came to us. So what do we do with that? Well, we already have the data. I mean, not all of the data but we have a lot of data in what we ingest because of the the services we provide to our customers. In order to be transmitting hundred of millions of dollars a day, you need real actionable data and you better understand that data and we do that. And so now we are layering on top of what that data set we have, technology, such as the ISO acquisition, which takes the data they have, data we have and creates quantitative scorecards that we can give back to our customers and that they can give to their customers so everyone can have clarity on how is a carrier performing. And for a broker that's a big thing.

第二件事是，我們想利用你們的數據，因為你們擁有的數據比任何人都多。您付給卡車司機的錢比任何人都多。每個人都知道這一點，他們看到了這一點，他們看到了我們所觸摸的東西。然後，我們願意使用您的這些數據，因為您的數據具有精確度。您實際上得到的是已付款項，而不是您所要求的金額、聲稱的金額或調查金額，就像付款不會說謊一樣。正是因為我在信中提到的這三個原因，客戶才來找我們。那我們該怎麼做呢？嗯，我們已經有數據了。我的意思是，不是所有的數據，但由於我們為客戶提供服務，我們獲得了大量的數據。為了每天傳輸數億美元，你需要真正的可操作數據，你最好了解這些數據，我們就是這樣做的。所以現在我們在現有的數據集之上分層添加技術，例如 ISO 採集，它可以收集他們擁有的數據和我們的數據，並創建量化記分卡，我們可以將這些記分卡返還給客戶，他們也可以將這些記分卡返還給他們的客戶，這樣每個人都可以清楚了解承運商的表現。對經紀人來說這是一件大事。

They want to know how a carrier's performing for their own benefit and they also want to know what is their scorecard for how are they doing for their shippers. Again, it's the data we already have. You're just layering the technology and some of the decisioning things that have been built on top of it. So our gross margin coming out of the gate in our Intelligence segment is well over 90%, because we're not buying that data from anyone, it's our data. We do a ton of work to to get it because we have to in our factoring and payment segment. So it's taking what we already have and curating it and anonymizing it and positioning it in a way that our customers who already use us for other products can make their businesses better, that's why we did it. It was an ask of an existing customer base. Surely, this will allow us to expand in brokerage. And eventually, we may sell this to people who are not in transportation for other reasons. But today our focus is what can we do to make brokers better and give more transparency and get carriers paid more quickly, that's who we're serving, that's who this segment was built for.

他們希望了解承運商的表現，以便獲得自身利益，同時也希望了解承運商為托運人提供的服務記分卡。再說一遍，這是我們已經擁有的數據。您只是對技術和一些在其之上構建的決策事物進行分層​​。因此，我們情報部門的毛利率遠遠超過 90%，因為我們不是從任何人那裡購買數據，而是我們自己的數據。我們做了大量的工作來獲得它，因為我們必須在保理和支付領域這樣做。因此，我們會利用現有資源，對其進行整理、匿名化，並以一種方式進行定位，以便已經使用我們其他產品的客戶可以更好地開展業務，這就是我們這樣做的原因。這是對現有客戶群的要求。當然，這將使我們能夠擴大經紀業務。最終，我們可能會將其出售給那些因為其他原因而不想搭乘交通工具的人。但今天我們的重點是我們能夠做些什麼來讓經紀人變得更好，提供更多的透明度，並讓承運人更快地獲得付款，這就是我們所服務的對象，這也是這個部門的目的。

Aaron, just to follow-up on that, as far as the revenue kind ramp within this segment. Is that something we should be -- expect anything material in 2025 or is this something that may not ramp until the next few years?

亞倫，我想跟進一下這個領域內的收入成長。我們是否應該期待 2025 年會出現任何實質進展，還是這可能要到未來幾年才會出現？

The multimillion dollar question. I mean, I'm always about, it should happen now, but let's just look at things. We have set out, let's look at it, like, in a -- the broader context. What we are doing right now as a company is we have a core community bank that we run that is designed to be run with stability and efficiency and we have a pretty mature factoring business. And we take all of the the revenue that we generate from those two businesses and increasingly from our payments business. And our goal is for our transportation related businesses to generate over $1 billion in revenue. By what time, I can't tell you precisely. Today, if you just use exit 2024 run rate metrics, we generate $210 million. So 21% of our way to our goal. And $150 million of that on a run rate basis comes from factoring, $60 million of it on a run rate basis comes from payments and almost none of it comes from Intelligence. And if you look at that $1 billion, you can kind of divide it into thirds. We could be more precise but I'm not going to be more precise on that. The factoring, there's $300 million to $400 million market opportunity payments is actually bigger than we thought when you add LoadPay in even though we were wrong on exactly what network transactions would be.

這是一個價值數百萬美元的問題。我的意思是，我一直認為它應該現在發生，但讓我們看看情況。我們已經開始了，讓我們從更廣泛的背景來看。作為一家公司，我們目前正在經營一家核心社區銀行，旨在穩定且有效率地運營，並且我們擁有相當成熟的保理業務。我們將從這兩項業務中獲取全部收入，並且越來越多地從我們的支付業務中獲取收入。我們的目標是讓我們的運輸相關業務創造超過 10 億美元的收入。到什麼時候，我無法準確告訴你。今天，如果您只使用 2024 年退出運行率指標，我們將創造 2.1 億美元收入。因此，我們已經實現目標的 21%。其中，以運行率計算，1.5 億美元來自保理，以運行率計算，6,000 萬美元來自支付，幾乎沒有一分錢來自情報。如果你看一下這 10 億美元，你可以將其分成三分之一。我們可以更精確一些，但我不會對此更加精確。考慮到有 3 億到 4 億美元的市場機會支付，當你添加 LoadPay 時，這個數字實際上比我們想像的要大，儘管我們對網絡交易的具體內容的判斷是錯誤的。

I think payments has grown because we figured out how to pay carriers and monetize that float and data -- and the exchange fees. And then that leaves us with this Intelligence segment, which is a whole lot of blue ocean there, right, that we only generate less than $1 million of revenue through some existing partnerships that needs to grow. I think you will see revenue in 2025 grow but of course the denominator over which it's growing is very small. It won't be meaningful in 2025 and I would hope towards the back end of 2026 it will. The key to understand is the building blocks are already here. We just have to make sure what we take to the market is built in a way -- like our customers have very high expectations of us, and we are not going to roll out a product that's half built, because we don't think that's the right thing to do. And even if it makes me get on earnings calls and explain why is this growth slow, why is this growth not here today, you already have the customers, the answer is because we're not going to do it until we can do it. And we're not going to do it at scale until we can do it with excellence.

我認為支付業務之所以成長，是因為我們找到瞭如何向營運商付費的方法，並將浮動流量和數據以及交易費用貨幣化。然後就剩下這個智慧部分了，這裡有很多藍海，對吧，我們僅透過一些需要發展的現有合作夥伴關係創造了不到 100 萬美元的收入。我認為 2025 年的營收將會成長，但當然成長的分母非常小。這在 2025 年不會有任何意義，但我希望到 2026 年底會有意義。理解的關鍵是基礎要素已經存在。我們只是要確保我們推向市場的產品是以某種方式建構的——例如我們的客戶對我們抱有很高的期望，我們不會推出半成品產品，因為我們認為那不是正確的做法。即使這讓我在收益電話會議上解釋為什麼成長緩慢，為什麼今天沒有成長，但你已經擁有了客戶，答案是因為我們只有做到了才會這麼做。如果我們無法做到卓越，我們不會大規模地去做這件事。

Our next question will come from Joe Yanchunis with Raymond James.

我們的下一個問題來自 Raymond James 的 Joe Yanchunis。

So in your shareholder letter, you touched on how noninterest expenses are expected to increase. Now how should we think about the pace of increase in 2025? And can you provide additional color on some of the internal investments you're going to be making?

因此，在您的致股東信中，您提到了非利息支出預計會增加。那麼，我們該如何看待2025年的成長速度呢？您能否進一步介紹一下您將要進行的一些內部投資？

So Joe, as you know, we evolved too fast to really provide explicit guidance beyond the next quarter. But my current expectation is that there will be very modest growth from that $99 million level that we called out for Q1, call it, low to mid-single digits over the course of the year, barring investments and things that we're not looking at just yet. As far as what brings -- what comprises those investments, some of it is just natural resets. We've got compensation resets that happen every first quarter. For the first -- for the last two quarters of 2024, we've been accruing bonuses at less than our full target because we didn't hit all of our financial metrics that we wanted to hit in 2024 and our bonus pool reflects that. We'll reset that to 100% because we do intend to hit those numbers this year. We've also got just general inflation in our healthcare costs and things like that. So as far as the -- what's driving the increase, bulk of it is compensation. It does include layering in ISO for a full quarter. We closed on that deal in December. And we do have some investments that we've made in both our Intelligence segment. We will continue to make investments there as well as just the operational resources that will be required to ramp up what we're doing in Factoring-as-a-Service and in LoadPay. To the extent that, that volume comes on faster or slower we'll adjust accordingly, but that's where those dollars are going.

所以喬，如你所知，我們的發展太快了，無法真正提供下個季度之後的明確指導。但我目前的預期是，除了投資和我們尚未考慮的因素外，今年的銷售額將以我們第一季預測的 9,900 萬美元的水平為基礎，保持非常溫和的增長，大概為低到中等個位數。至於這些投資的組成成分，其中一些只是自然重置。我們每年第一季都會重新調整薪資。首先——在 2024 年的最後兩個季度，我們累積的獎金低於我們的全部目標，因為我們沒有達到我們想要在 2024 年達到的所有財務指標，我們的獎金池反映了這一點。我們將把這個數字重置為 100%，因為我們確實打算在今年達到這些數字。我們的醫療費用等也普遍存在通貨膨脹。至於推動成長的因素，大部分是補償。它確實包括整個季度的 ISO 分層。我們已在十二月完成了那筆交易。我們確實在情報部門進行了一些投資。我們將繼續在該領域進行投資，並投入所需的營運資源，以加強我們在保理即服務和 LoadPay 方面的工作。我們會根據交易量的快慢做出相應調整，但這就是資金的去向。

It's -- I mean, 100% agree with Brad on that. One thing that Joe just -- that you can watch for is with the instant decision model and the things like -- just for factoring, for example, you should see -- assuming the market does not go down again, you should see and we should be held accountable for growing factoring market share. No questions, no excuses, we will do that organically through FAS. And what you really need to see and what I'm watching for and what I firmly believe will happen is the gearing ratio as we do that is going to be better because we can use all this technology we built to grow volumes without adding people expenses. Now there will always be some but our margins should expand. That's why our operating margin should expand. Of course, it will expand if we get a tailwind in the market but those dollars were spent to build technology to allow us to grow volume without having to add people every time we grow, that's something I would watch for. That's something I'm watching for and something I'll be reporting back to you on is we need to be demonstrate efficiency as we grow.

這是——我的意思是，我 100% 同意布拉德的觀點。喬所關注的一件事是即時決策模型和諸如此類的事情——例如，僅就保理而言，您應該看到——假設市場不再下跌，您應該看到，我們應該對不斷增長的保理市場份額負責。毫無疑問，沒有任何藉口，我們將透過 FAS 自然而然地做到這一點。你真正需要看到的、我正在關注的以及我堅信會發生的是，我們的負債比率將會變得更好，因為我們可以使用我們建立的所有這些技術來增加產量，而無需增加人力成本。現在總是會有一些，但我們的利潤率應該會擴大。這就是我們的營業利潤率應該擴大的原因。當然，如果我們在市場上順風，它就會擴張，但這些錢是用來打造技術的，使我們能夠擴大產量，而不必在每次增長時都增加人手，這是我關注的事情。這是我所關注的事情，我將向你們報告的是，我們需要在成長過程中展現效率。

And then one more for me here. How should we think about increasing adoption of your Factoring-as-a-Service product and how will that adoption translate to revenue? Just any sort of type of unit economics you can provide would be helpful.

這裡還有另外一個。我們應該如何考慮增加您的「保理即服務」產品的採用，以及這種採用如何轉化為收入？您提供的任何類型的單位經濟學都會有所幫助。

So Factoring-as-a-Service, it's starting with large brokers in the market with C.H. Robinson. I don't think you'll see another announcement for a few months. But after that, I think you will see other large brokers follow in this space because they have the best marketing funnel, no question. And they care about the carrier relationship and payments touches the carrier relationship. I think you may see other people who are not in the brokerage industry want to use our platform, that will be later in the year. In each of those scenarios, there's a negotiation about what the unit economics net to Triumph look like, right? It depends on a variety of factors. You can look at it a lot of different ways, but the average factoring invoice today on an average, let's just say, for a small carrier, $1,600 invoice, is going to be roughly $35 of revenue. And then from that, you got to figure out how to pay your sales people, you got to fund it, you got to all the things you have to do, that's what you're dividing up. Now you're doing that, hopefully, thousands and then tens of thousands and then hundreds of thousands and then millions of times. But the thing about FAS for us is that, and I wrote about this in the letter, like we have built the factory and it has been built at no small cost, a tremendous amount of investment and we have a tremendous amount of talented people. And I think about like Melissa Free who even runs that specific business for her. Like I known her in this business for 14 years and watching her career progression and all the people she leads, like those investments are made.

因此，保理即服務是從 C.H. 等市場上的大型經紀商開始的。羅賓遜。我認為幾個月內你都不會再看到其他公告。但在此之後，我認為你會看到其他大型經紀商進入這個領域，因為毫無疑問他們擁有最好的行銷管道。他們關心承運人關係，而付款又與承運人關係有關。我想你可能會看到其他不屬於經紀行業的人想要使用我們的平台，那將在今年稍後。在每一種情況下，都會有一個關於 Triumph 的單位經濟效益淨值的談判，對嗎？這取決於多種因素。你可以從很多不同的角度來看待這個問題，但今天，對於一家小型承運商來說，平均保理發票金額為 1,600 美元，這大約相當於 35 美元的收入。然後從那以後，你必須弄清楚如何支付你的銷售人員的工資，你必須為其提供資金，你必須做所有你必須做的事情，這就是你所要分配的。現在您正在這樣做，希望能夠進行數千次、數萬次、數十萬次甚至數百萬次。但對我們來說，FAS 的事情是，我在信中寫到了這一點，就像我們建造了這座工廠一樣，它的建造成本不小，投入了大量資金，而且我們擁有大量的人才。我想到梅麗莎·弗里 (Melissa Free)，她甚至自己經營這項特定的業務。就像我在這個行業認識她 14 年了，我見證了她的職業發展以及她所領導的所有人所做的投資。

And the reason you build a factory and you build it big and you invest in all the ways that things should move is because you expect that the opportunity is going to get calm to push a lot of volume through it. And as volume increases, if we hold head count steady, which personnel expense is the largest expense in a factoring business at roughly 60% of it, you're going to see operating margin improve and you're going to see revenue grow and you're going to see volume grow. And if the market gets back to normal whatever we want to define that to be, but it needs to still move in favor of the carriers, no question, then that's exciting for us. It may not show up until the back half of this year. We may suck wind in the first two quarters, I don't know, but that's what we're doing. C.H. Robinson will not be the only FaaS customer, they'll be the only one through the first half of the year and we're going to make sure we do it amazingly well and we're going to learn from what we did. And then when we do it again, we're just going to make sure we serve our customers' needs in that regard. And our customer is whoever the FaaS provider is, that's their product, they're taking to the market. We are invisible and behind the scenes and entirely content to be so. So that's -- I don't know if that gives you exactly what you're looking for but that's directionally how we're thinking.

你之所以要建造一家規模龐大的工廠，並投資於所有可以推動事物發展的方式，是因為你預計機會將會平靜下來，從而推動大量生產。隨著業務量的增加，如果我們保持員工人數穩定，人員費用是保理業務中最大的支出，約佔 60%，您將看到營業利潤率提高，收入增長，業務量增長。如果市場恢復正常，無論我們想如何定義它，但它仍然需要有利於運營商，毫無疑問，這對我們來說是令人興奮的。它可能要到今年下半年才會顯現。我們可能在前兩個季度表現不佳，我不知道，但這就是我們正在做的事情。C.H. Robinson 不會是唯一的 FaaS 客戶，但他們將是今年上半年唯一的客戶，我們將確保我們做得非常好，並從我們所做的事情中吸取教訓。當我們再次這樣做時，我們只是要確保滿足客戶在這方面的需求。我們的客戶是 FaaS 供應商，這是他們的產品，他們正在將其推向市場。我們都是隱形的、幕後的，並且對此十分滿意。所以那是——我不知道這是否能為你提供你所尋找的東西，但那是我們思考的方向。

I would add one thing to that, Aaron. And that's when we have control of the factory, right, the technology and we talk about the pipe we build and the pipe that can receive the data, with FAS, we are in control of that. So we were able to take network transactions and push them out to the FAS clients so that it can be useful in their models as well. So it is serving multiple participants but it's also serving the network to allow us to continue to grow density in those transactions that can be leveraged across the Triumph enterprise.

我想補充一點，亞倫。那時我們就控制了工廠，對吧，技術，我們談論我們建造的管道和可以接收數據的管道，有了 FAS，我們就可以控制它。因此，我們能夠獲取網路交易並將其推送至 FAS 用戶端，以便它也可以在他們的模型中使用。因此，它不僅為多個參與者提供服務，還為網路提供服務，使我們能夠繼續增加可在整個 Triumph 企業中利用的交易的密度。

Our next question will come from Gary Tenner with D.A. Davidson.

下一個問題來自 D.A. 的 Gary Tenner。戴維森。

First, I had a follow-up on your comments, Aaron, on the Intelligence segment from the prior question. In the past, you've talked about finding ways to monetize data. It sounds like, though, from what you were saying, this is more of a pull from clients and maybe a departure from what you had thought about in the past. Is that accurate so kind of the first step in monetization of the data?

首先，亞倫，我想跟進一下你對上一個問題中情報部分的評論。過去，您曾談到尋找將數據貨幣化的方法。不過，從您所說的情況來看，這更多的是來自客戶的吸引力，也許與您過去的想法不同。這是否準確，那麼這是數據貨幣化的第一步？

Yes, I think we had ideas. And if I go back to the acquisition of HubTran in 2021 and when we stepped into this space, we also had ideas and we had the ideas about the network. And one of the learnings from that, and I think the network and open loop and all of that is true and right and good. One of the things we learned is figure out exactly what your customers' pain points are not what you think sitting afar, I mean, hopefully, we don't sit in an ivory tower, it's not our goal, but we don't move freight, we have ideas on how to create efficiencies. But the way to do this is tell us what you need, what would be valuable to you because our job is to provide your service. And so we started with ideas but that was very wet cement and then our customers shape that for us and said, no, this is what we care about, this is what I would like to know, this is a problem for me that I'm struggling to figure out how to solve. And so great, then let us see what we can do to be specifically responsive to what it is that you would like -- that what it is you would want from us.

是的，我認為我們有想法。如果我回顧 2021 年對 HubTran 的收購，當我們進入這個領域時，我們也有想法，我們有關於網路的想法。從中得到的一個教訓是，我認為網路和開放循環以及所有這些都是真實的、正確的和好的。我們學到的一件事就是弄清楚你的客戶的痛點到底是什麼，而不是你坐在遠處想的那樣，我的意思是，希望我們不要坐在像牙塔里，這不是我們的目標，但我們不運送貨物，我們對如何提高效率有想法。但要做到這一點，我們需要告訴我們您需要什麼，什麼對您有價值，因為我們的工作是為您服務。因此，我們開始有一些想法，但那隻是紙上談兵，然後我們的客戶為我們塑造了這個想法，並說，不，這是我們關心的，這是我想知道的，這是我正在努力想辦法解決的問題。太好了，那麼讓我們看看我們能做些什麼來具體滿足您的需求——您希望從我們這裡得到什麼。

And then a follow-up, just in terms of LoadPay, you talked about Factoring-as-a-Service, no announcements near term, obviously, CHRW, the big focus there right now. Will LoadPay, will that broader rollout follow a similar pace as what you're doing with Factoring-as-a-Service?

然後是後續問題，就 LoadPay 而言，您談到了保理即服務 (Factoring-as-a-Service)，近期沒有公告，顯然，CHRW 是目前的重點。LoadPay 的廣泛推廣是否會遵循與您開展保理即服務類似的步伐？

Todd, do you want to take that first?

托德，你想先拿那個嗎？

Of course, we're using the same channels to try to sell LoadPay as we are to sell Factoring-as-a-Service. And the most -- the greatest value for the client comes from when you put those two things together. So the best use case here is to have a client that accepts Factoring-as-a-Service and then has all of their carriers using LoadPay. So you need to think about that as our strategy, first and foremost, but we do have a lot of other channels that we can use to sell LoadPay as well and we're going to explore them in parallel.

當然，我們使用相同的管道來嘗試銷售 LoadPay 和銷售保理即服務。當你將這兩者結合在一起時，客戶就能獲得最大的價值。因此，這裡最好的用例是讓客戶接受保理即服務，然後讓所有營運商使用 LoadPay。因此，您首先需要將其視為我們的策略，但我們確實還有很多其他管道可以用來銷售 LoadPay，我們將同時探索這些管道。

That's -- to give you specifics, Gary, I mean, we have 8,000 plus customers inside of our factoring business and that represents more than 8,000 trucks because some of those customers have five, 10, 15 trucks. And eventually an enterprise product is in the works, it won't be rolled out in the short term. And so we hope to be able to serve customers who have 200 trucks and parent child accounts, there's a lot of things that have gone into our thinking about our long term road map, and we had a great team working on that. So you've got that, I wouldn't call them a captive audience, but an audience, we touch 3 times a week. Then you have our select carriers, which on the active select carrier basis in TriumphPay, these are nonfactor carriers who take QuickPays from all TriumphPay enabled brokers is over, what, 20,000. So that's -- between those two right there, you have more than 10% of all at carriers. Then you take C.H. Robinson who touches thousands and thousands and thousands of carriers and pays them in their own QuickPay program and all the things they do is the market's leading broker, that's another huge [pond to fishing] and there's crossover.

那 — — 給你講具體情況，加里，我的意思是，我們的保理業務中有 8,000 多個客戶，這意味著超過 8,000 輛卡車，因為其中一些客戶有 5 輛、10 輛、15 輛卡車。最終，企業產品正在開發中，但短期內不會推出。因此，我們希望能夠為擁有 200 輛卡車和親子帳戶的客戶提供服務，我們在考慮長期路線圖時考慮了很多事情，並且我們有一個很棒的團隊致力於此。所以你明白了，我不會稱他們為被迫的觀眾，而是我們每週接觸三次的觀眾。然後，您有我們選擇的承運商，在 TriumphPay 中以主動選擇承運商為基礎，這些非因素承運商從所有啟用 TriumphPay 的經紀人那裡接受 QuickPay，數量超過 20,000 家。所以 — — 這兩者之間，在營運商中佔有超過 10% 的份額。那你就帶 C.H.羅賓遜與成千上萬的承運商聯繫，並透過他們自己的 QuickPay 計劃向他們付款，他們所做的一切都是市場領先的經紀人，這是另一個巨大的[釣魚池]，並且存在交叉。

So the ability to reach out and get this in people's hands, I don't know that -- and I think I can say, I do not think any virtual wallet that has ever existed in transportation has a better chance of success than LoadPay. I just don't think so. And it sits on the rails of a bank so we don't need -- we don't have to use Banking-as-a-Service. Like it lives in our accounts, we control the entire experience to make sure it's excellent. And lastly, we built it not as a fuel card and it's not that it's so much bigger than that and we built it in a way that it is friendly towards the cards that are out there. We let our customers move the money to where they want to move it to, when they want to move it to. And so you add all that together and that makes me very excited about what we're going to go do with LoadPay and the ability to instantly fund 24/7 because we use sub-ledgered accounts inside of Triumph, I mean, that's really hard for someone else to imitate, right, that's really, really hard. And there's features, enhancements and all the things we're going to add to it. And so this is not something we're doing as a hobby, like this is a core part of going from moving the money from the broker to the carrier, the broker to the factor to the carrier. This is how we make sure carriers can receive that money instantly and use it instantly and we get to expand our market. And that, for us, is really exciting.

因此，我不知道它是否能夠普及到人們手中——但我認為我可以說，我認為交通運輸領域中沒有任何虛擬錢包比 LoadPay 更有機會成功。我只是不這麼認為。而且它建立在銀行的基礎上，所以我們不需要——我們不必使用銀行即服務。就像它存在於我們的帳戶中一樣，我們控制整個體驗以確保它是優秀的。最後，我們並不是將它設計成燃料卡，也不是將它設計得比燃料卡大很多，而是讓它對現有的卡片更友善。我們讓客戶可以在他們想要的時間將資金轉移到他們想要的地方。所以把所有這些加在一起，讓我對我們將要使用 LoadPay 做的事情和全天候即時注資的能力感到非常興奮，因為我們在 Triumph 內部使用子分類帳戶，我的意思是，這對其他人來說真的很難模仿，對吧，這真的非常困難。我們將為其添加新功能、增強功能和所有東西。所以這不是我們為了愛好而做的事情，而是將資金從經紀人轉移到承運人，再從經紀人轉移到保理商，再轉移到承運人的核心部分。這就是我們如何確保營運商能夠立即收到錢並立即使用，並擴大我們的市場。對我們來說，這真是令人興奮。

Operator

操作員

[Operator Instructions] Our next question will come from Hal Goetsch with B. Riley.

[操作員指示] 我們的下一個問題來自 B. Riley 的 Hal Goetsch。

I got a quick question on maybe KPIs on LoadPay. If you had a guess, like what it'd be good, better, best spend levels for someone on this over the long run? What would be your guess on this? Because we can look at other public companies that have a product that's like this but it looks like the dollars are going to be -- could be a lot bigger on a low bit -- there's bigger dollars involved. When someone fills up their tank and spends on a debit card, it's like $60. When the trucker build a tank, it's a lot more. A lot more dollars in the trucking business than there is, maybe their income, they spend a lot more than they make probably. So -- right?

我有一個關於 LoadPay 上的 KPI 的快速問題。如果您能猜測一下，從長遠來看，對於某些人來說，最好的、更好的、最佳的支出水平是多少？您對此有何猜測？因為我們可以看到其他上市公司也有類似的產品，但看起來涉及的金額會更大——雖然金額較低——涉及的金額更大。當有人加滿油箱並用借記卡消費時，金額約為 60 美元。當卡車司機建造一輛坦克車時，事情就複雜多了。卡車運輸業的資金可能比他們的收入多得多，他們花的錢可能比賺的錢多得多。那麼——對嗎？

So when you think about the funds flowing into the LoadPay account, one of the things that can happen is through the integration with fuel card, you can end up having -- capturing all that fuel spend as part of the LoadPay spend. You also have the debit card feature, which is capturing all the other spend of the trucker. And then there is oftentimes the need for money to be transferred out of the LoadPay account or other cash needs. And so that's part of the value proposition as well. So basically, you capture eventually 100% of the spend of that particular carrier through this process if you do it right.

因此，當您考慮流入 LoadPay 帳戶的資金時，可能發生的事情之一就是透過與燃油卡的整合，您最終可以將所有燃油支出作為 LoadPay 支出的一部分。您還擁有借記卡功能，可以記錄卡車司機的所有其他支出。然後，經常需要從 LoadPay 帳戶轉出資金或滿足其他現金需求。這也是價值主張的一部分。因此，基本上，如果您做得正確，您最終可以透過這個過程捕獲該特定承運人的 100％ 的支出。

And Todd, speak to the -- what we've been talking about is how the spin like is -- the exchange rate -- the changes depending upon where money is spent, because I think investors could know that...

托德，請講一下——我們一直在談論的是匯率是如何變化的——匯率的變化取決於錢花在何處，因為我認為投資者應該知道這一點…

So what we're finding so far, and this is still early days, is that these LoadPay account holders are using their debit card very actively. And so when they use their debit cards actively, the question is, how are they using it, how does that translate into interchange? So when you think about debit card interchange, it tends to be very low for a consumer. It's much higher for business transactions. And among business transactions, you can have some that are more lucrative than others. For us, so far this month in January, the average interchange rate is about 1.9%. So if they're using that debit card, let's say, 50 times a month and the average per spend or per item spend is $80, you multiply that by about 1.9% you can get a sense for what's happening already with very like new debit card accounts. These aren't even fully mature yet. So we -- that's an example of a single debit card on a single LoadPay account. Now imagine you take a LoadPay account, you have multiple cards in that account, one for each truck. And you can see how that then multiplies further and it can become very large.

到目前為止，我們發現，儘管這還處於早期階段，這些 LoadPay 帳戶持有者正在非常積極地使用他們的金融卡。因此，當他們積極使用借記卡時，問題是，他們是如何使用的，如何轉化為交換？因此，當您考慮借記卡交換時，對於消費者來說，它的成本往往非常低。對於商業交易來說，這個數字要高得多。在商業交易中，有些交易比其他交易更有利可圖。對我們來說，到目前為止，一月份的平均交換率約為 1.9%。因此，如果他們每月使用該借記卡 50 次，平均每次消費或每件商品消費為 80 美元，那麼將這個數字乘以約 1.9%，您就可以了解新借記卡帳戶的情況。這些甚至還沒有完全成熟。所以，我們 — — 這是單一 LoadPay 帳戶上一張金融卡的範例。現在假設您有一個 LoadPay 帳戶，該帳戶中有多張卡，每輛卡車一張。並且您可以看到它如何進一步倍增並變得非常大。

So when you guys say accounts, it could be multiple cards, it could be a small firm, it could be on one account?

所以當你們說帳戶時，它可能是多張卡，可能是一個小公司，也可能是一個帳戶？

A single unit owner operator could have one card.

單一單位業主經營者可以擁有一張卡。

But it's a 10 unit would have 10 -- one company but that have 10 active users.

但 10 個單位就有 10 個單位──一家公司卻有 10 個活躍用戶。

At least 10, because once you get cards...

至少 10 張，因為一旦你拿到卡片…

Are you going to report active users or accounts, I mean are they one and the same?

您要報告活躍用戶還是帳戶，我的意思是它們是同一個嗎？

Not the same. Yes, we can report both, if you like.

不一樣。是的，如果您願意，我們可以同時報告兩者。

Sure. We can report all of it, Brad, just report it. I think active users -- look our -- we want investors to be treated the way we would want to be treated if the rules were reversed, telling you that there's an account but it's an inactive account that doesn't help you. I think what we need to tell you is who the active users are. So you can see really what are we monetizing it at per unit economics on active users. So I think that's the right thing to tell you.

當然。我們可以全部報告，布拉德，只管報告就好。我認為活躍用戶——看我們的——我們希望投資者受到的待遇就像我們希望在規則被逆轉時受到的待遇一樣，告訴你有一個帳戶，但這是一個對你沒有幫助的非活躍帳戶。我認為我們需要告訴你誰是活躍用戶。所以你可以真正看到我們是如何透過活躍用戶的單位經濟效益來實現盈利的。所以我認為這是應該告訴你的事情。

Our next question will come from Joe Yanchunis with Raymond James.

我們的下一個問題來自 Raymond James 的 Joe Yanchunis。

We do have a couple of follow-up questions. Just to piggyback on some of the LoadPay questions that have been asked. You seem to have this large distribution channel. Is there any way to handicap what you would view as a success for either account or active user adoption kind of exiting 2025? Just trying to appreciate the opportunity over, say, the near to intermediate term?

我們確實有幾個後續問題。只是為了順便回答一些被問到的 LoadPay 問題。你們似乎擁有這個龐大的通路。有沒有什麼方法可以阻礙您認為在 2025 年之後帳戶或活躍用戶採用率是否能取得成功？只是想了解近期到中期的機會？

I would say between 5,000 and 10,000, that's a broad band. If I got more narrow, people on the pier would be tackling me. But I think that -- I would view that as a really good start, somewhere in that band.

我想說 5,000 到 10,000 之間，這是一個很寬的範圍。如果我再縮小一點，碼頭上的人就會攻擊我。但我認為——我認為這是一個非常好的開始，在那個樂團的某個地方。

Then just one more for me here. You discussed about increasing market share in your factoring business, which I believe is currently around 15%. How quickly do you think you'll be able to raise your market share? Is something like 100 basis points a year achievable in your view?

那麼這裡對我來說再多一個。您談到了增加保理業務的市場份額，我認為目前約為 15%。您認為您能多快提高您的市佔率？您認為每年 100 個基點左右的增幅可以實現嗎？

I think you can get -- yes, 1% for sure. It's interesting, Joe, you made me think of something because how we think about growing market share. So as Triumph just stayed -- it's -- say we're going to stay at 15% market share with the open loop network because we thought that was what people cared about, we didn't realize the bigger problem was the technology integration in the early days. We just enabled one company to grow at the expense of a bunch of others. I mean that's not going to happen anymore. So -- because it's not good for the industry, it's not good for everyone. I firmly believe it has not been proven. I mean it's not that C.H. Robinson is the first freight broker to get into factory. I mean four of the top 10 factoring companies were started by freight brokers but they are the first freight broker of their size with their carrier base to say we want to be part of carrier payments, and we want to do it at scale with cutting edge technology. That -- their ability to drive adoption has yet to be proven. Of course, we're biased and rooting for them to win in a major way and I think -- because that helps them win on multiple fronts.

我認為你可以得到 — — 是的，肯定能得到 1%。有趣的是，喬，你讓我想到了一些事情，因為我們如何看待增加市場佔有率。因此，當 Triumph 保持——也就是——我們將繼續保持 15% 的開環網路市場份額時，因為我們認為這是人們所關心的，我們沒有意識到更大的問題是早期的技術整合。我們只是以犧牲其他公司為代價，幫助一家公司實現了成長。我的意思是這種事不會再發生了。所以——因為這對產業不利，對每個人也不利。我堅信這尚未得到證實。我的意思不是那個 C.H.羅賓遜是第一家進入工廠的貨運代理公司。我的意思是，十大保理公司中有四家是由貨運經紀人創辦的，但他們是第一家擁有同等規模和承運商基礎的貨運經紀人，他們表示希望成為承運商支付的一部分，並且希望利用尖端技術大規模地實現這一目標。他們推動採用的能力尚未得到證明。當然，我們有偏見並且支持他們取得重大勝利，我認為——因為這有助於他們在多個方面獲勝。

But you also have to think about like what is the market opportunity out there. And so we pulled some metrics, Kim pulled them for me. The last normal year in spring, let's call that 2019, although as we said, I don't know if there's ever a normal year. Our factoring business had 4,360 new client applications, those have been some small clients, some large clients, et cetera. In 2021, we had 10,766 applications. The ability to take market share when you're seeing a lot of apps flow through, people are moving, new entrants are coming, that's when you go get market share, right? It's an easier time to do it. In 2024, and this is why I would argue, I'm not going to use the term freight recession as a crutch anymore but I do need you to understand what the freight market is, 2,835 applications. And I would even question, of the 2,835 applications, I promise you, some of those are fraudulent, those are bad actors who are buying MC numbers and trying to penetrate the system. Just because we know that, we see it that fraud and that's again why our data is so valuable is to protect against that.

但你還必須思考那裡的市場機會是什麼。因此我們提取了一些指標，Kim 幫我提取了它們。最後一個正常的春季年份，我們稱之為 2019 年，儘管正如我們所說，我不知道是否有一個正常的年份。我們的保理業務有 4,360 個新客戶申請，其中有些是小客戶，有些是大客戶等等。2021 年，我們收到了 10,766 份申請。當你看到大量的應用程式流通、人們在轉移、新進入者不斷湧入時，你就有能力佔領市場份額，這就是你獲得市場份額的時候，對嗎？現在做這件事比較容易。到 2024 年，這就是我要爭論的原因，我不會再使用貨運衰退這個詞作為支撐，但我確實需要你了解貨運市場是什麼，2,835 份申請。我甚至會質疑，在這 2,835 份申請中，我向你保證，其中一些是欺詐性的，是那些購買 MC 號碼並試圖滲透系統的壞人。正因為我們知道這一點，我們才認為這是欺詐，而這又是為什麼我們的數據如此有價值，就是為了防止這種欺詐。

But it also tells you that the small -- like the animal spirits that leads a trucker to leave some other form of employment and start a new carrier does -- isn't yet here. It's not -- the value proposition relative to the risk is not here. Will that change in 2025? We all hope so. But as we sit here today, it hasn't changed. When that market starts to turn, we're going to be aggressively marketing in that market. C.H. Robinson is going to be aggressively marketing in that market. There are other talented competitors. And you'll start to see that, I think, pull through to our numbers. I genuinely do. So yes, to pick up 1% market share in a year, I'd be disappointed if that was all we did. We're not going to double it in a year but I certainly think we'll do better than adding 1%.

但它也告訴你，一些小因素——比如促使卡車司機放棄其他工作並開始從事新運輸業的動物精神——尚未到來。事實並非如此——與風險相關的價值主張並不在這裡。2025 年這種情況會改變嗎？我們都希望如此。但今天我們坐在這裡，它並沒有改變。當該市場開始轉變時，我們將積極進行該市場的營銷。C.H.羅賓遜將積極在該市場開展行銷。還有其他才華洋溢的競爭對手。我認為，您會開始看到這一點，並影響到我們的數字。我確實這麼認為。所以是的，如果我們一年內只獲得 1% 的市場份額，那麼我會感到失望。我們不會在一年內將其翻一番，但我確信我們會做得比增加 1% 更好。

And then just a point of clarity, that C.H. Robinson factoring volume that they're going to generate that will be additive to your invoice purchases as -- that will flow through your factoring business. Is that the right way to think about it?

然後需要澄清的一點是，C.H.羅賓遜保理業務量將會增加您的發票購買量 — — 這將流經您的保理業務。這是正確的思考方式嗎？

Yes, that's the way we think about it, and all of the factoring as a service invoices will show up on the factoring division.

是的，我們就是這樣想的，所有保理服務發票都會出現在保理部門。

Now it sits on our balance sheet. So Kim and her team are responsible. We have to think about the credit exposure is ours, all the things we do for our regular factoring business, we will do there. And so yes, we'll call it out for you, right, I think -- and that's the plan. And we'll show you what percentage of the volume is coming through a FaaS channel but it will all go into that revenue that shows up in our factoring segment.

現在它在我們的資產負債表上。因此，Kim 和她的團隊應該承擔責任。我們必須考慮信用風險是我們自己的，我們為常規保理業務所做的所有事情，我們都會在那裡做。是的，我們會為您指出這一點，對的，我想——這就是計劃。我們將向您展示透過 FaaS 管道產生的交易量百分比，但這些交易量都將計入我們保理部門的收入。

And there are no further questions at this time. Thank you.

目前沒有其他問題。謝謝。

Thank you all for being with us. Have a great day.

感謝大家與我們同在。祝你有美好的一天。