Triumph Financial Inc (TFIN) 2023 Q1 法說會逐字稿

Good morning. It's 9:30 here and a typical spring day in Texas. It's time for our first quarter earnings call. So let's get to it. I'd like to open today by thanking you for sharing your morning with us. You'll notice the set looks a little differently today, and we're proud to unveil our new desk.

早上好。現在是 9 點 30 分，德克薩斯州典型的春日。現在是我們第一季度財報電話會議的時候了。讓我們開始吧。我想通過感謝您與我們分享您的早晨來打開今天。您會注意到今天的組合看起來有點不同，我們很自豪地推出我們的新辦公桌。

This desk was constructed by Cody and Chris at the TBK workshop along with participants from our inaugural Forge of the Future program. The workshop is a maker space we've developed that is focused on community outreach through workforce development and educational initiatives.

這張桌子是由 Cody 和 Chris 在 TBK 研討會上與我們首屆 Forge of the Future 計劃的參與者一起建造的。該工作坊是我們開發的創客空間，專注於通過勞動力發展和教育計劃來擴大社區範圍。

You'll notice another difference this morning in our group here at the studio, Dan Curtis, our Chief Operating Officer in TriumphPay, will be filling in for Melissa. Melissa's daughter is completing her active duty service in the Navy. So Melissa will be attending a family celebration, onboard the USS Carl Vinson. Given the once-in-a-lifetime opportunity and to celebrate her daughter's service, she wanted and of course, we wanted for her, to be present at this special event.

今天早上你會注意到我們工作室的另一個不同之處，我們在 TriumphPay 的首席運營官 Dan Curtis 將代替 Melissa。 Melissa 的女兒即將在海軍服完現役。因此，梅麗莎將在卡爾文森號航空母艦上參加家庭慶祝活動。鑑於千載難逢的機會和慶祝她女兒的服務，她想要，當然，我們也希望她能出席這個特別的活動。

Dan brings a wealth of industry experience and an informed understanding of the market dynamics facing TriumphPay as well as the opportunities we are pursuing. So please join me in welcoming him today. Melissa will be back with us in the next -- in the studio for next quarter's call.

Dan 擁有豐富的行業經驗，對 TriumphPay 面臨的市場動態以及我們正在尋求的機會有著深刻的了解。所以今天請和我一起歡迎他。 Melissa 將在接下來的時間回到我們身邊——在工作室參加下一季度的電話會議。

Speaking of, let's get to business. Last evening, we published our quarterly shareholder letter. That letter and our quarterly results will form the basis of our call today. However, before we get started, I'd like to remind you that this conversation may include forward-looking statements. Those statements are subject to risks and uncertainties that could cause actual and anticipated results to differ.

說到正事。昨晚，我們發布了季度股東信。那封信和我們的季度業績將構成我們今天電話會議的基礎。然而，在我們開始之前，我想提醒您，這次談話可能包含前瞻性陳述。這些陳述受風險和不確定性的影響，可能導致實際結果和預期結果不同。

The company undertakes no obligation to publicly revise any forward-looking statements. For details, please refer to the safe harbor statement in our shareholder letter published last evening. All comments made during today's call are subject to that safe harbor statement.

公司不承擔公開修改任何前瞻性陳述的義務。有關詳細信息，請參閱我們昨晚發布的股東信中的安全港聲明。在今天的電話會議上發表的所有評論均受該安全港聲明的約束。

With that, I'd like to turn the call over to Aaron for a welcome and to kick off our Q&A. Aaron?

有了這個，我想把電話轉給 Aaron 以表示歡迎並開始我們的問答。亞倫？

Thank you, Luke. Good morning. Thank you for joining us. I hope that you found the letter we published last evening, informative and helpful. I'll make a few opening comments, and then we'll turn the call over for questions. Depending on your position related to Triumph Financial, I have 1 piece of bad news and 3 pieces of good news. So let's start with the bad news.

謝謝你，盧克。早上好。感謝您加入我們。我希望您發現我們昨晚發表的這封信內容豐富且有所幫助。我會發表一些開場白，然後我們會把電話轉過來提問。根據您與 Triumph Financial 相關的職位，我有 1 個壞消息和 3 個好消息。那麼讓我們從壞消息開始吧。

Freight recession is here and it's real. The softness in the market took a toll on our earnings for the quarter. Further, I think investors should know that the market has remained soft for the beginning of the second quarter. If the market stays this soft for a long period of time, many companies in transportation will experience financial distress. We don't have any projections for how long or how deep the recession will be. That is the bad news.

貨運衰退就在這裡，這是真實的。市場疲軟對我們本季度的收益造成了影響。此外，我認為投資者應該知道，第二季度初市場一直疲軟。如果市場長期保持這種疲軟狀態，許多運輸公司將陷入財務困境。我們對經濟衰退將持續多長時間或多深沒有任何預測。這是個壞消息。

Now for the good news. Even if the freight market stays soft, investors should expect Triumph Financial to remain profitable. Freight is the biggest part of what we do, but it is not the only thing we do. Further, we were reducing long-term freight risk when the market was the frothiest 2 years ago. For example, we slowed our growth in equipment finance in the last few years because we wanted to be particular on credit.

現在是好消息。即使貨運市場保持疲軟，投資者也應該期待 Triumph Financial 保持盈利。貨運是我們所做工作的最大部分，但它不是我們所做的唯一事情。此外，當 2 年前市場最泡沫時，我們正在降低長期運費風險。例如，我們在過去幾年放慢了設備融資的增長，因為我們希望在信貸方面有所作為。

We didn't know when the market would turn, but we never forgot that the freight market is cyclical. We expect to navigate this print cycle just like the ones in the past. And past experience has taught us that bad markets often present compelling opportunities. The second piece of good news, all of the ills that have caused trouble for the banking industry in the last 60 days are just generally not true of us.

我們不知道市場何時轉向，但我們從未忘記貨運市場是周期性的。我們希望像過去一樣駕馭這個印刷週期。過去的經驗告訴我們，糟糕的市場往往會帶來誘人的機會。第二個好消息，過去 60 天給銀行業帶來麻煩的所有弊病一般都不會發生在我們身上。

We have ample capital and liquidity. We take very limited interest rate risk and we have avoided growth in the areas most likely to experience credit risk. And now for the final piece of good news, do not let the falling freight market confuse you on TriumphPay's performance. You will not see us use this freight recession, however long it may be to walk back our guidance on profitability in that segment. To the contrary, we expect to do better.

我們有充足的資金和流動性。我們承擔的利率風險非常有限，而且我們避免了最有可能經歷信用風險的領域的增長。現在是最後一個好消息，不要讓下跌的貨運市場讓您對 TriumphPay 的表現感到困惑。你不會看到我們利用這次貨運衰退，不管我們在該領域的盈利能力指引可能會退回多長時間。相反，我們希望做得更好。

Depending on which markers you use, the truckload freight market is down between 10% to 30% over the past year. And the brokered freight market is towards the higher end of that range. In that same time frame, TriumphPay has grown its volume by over 7%. In other words, we're taking market share in a falling market.

根據您使用的標記，卡車貨運市場在過去一年中下降了 10% 到 30%。經紀貨運市場正朝著該範圍的高端發展。在同一時間段內，TriumphPay 的交易量增長了 7% 以上。換句話說，我們正在下跌的市場中佔據市場份額。

But more important than growing volume, we have improved our EBITDA margin by over 50% in 1 quarter. That improvement is not episodic. We always believe that the float we created in the network would be valuable, we just needed a different interest rate environment to demonstrate that value. That rate environment has now arrived. Last quarter, we noted that TriumphPay was self-funding as a segment for the first time. For this quarter, TriumphPay generated excess funding, investing that excess funding at the Fed funds rate created interest income of over $1.5 million for the quarter.

但比銷量增長更重要的是，我們在 1 個季度內將 EBITDA 利潤率提高了 50% 以上。這種改善不是偶發的。我們始終相信我們在網絡中創造的浮動是有價值的，我們只是需要一個不同的利率環境來證明這種價值。這種利率環境現在已經到來。上個季度，我們注意到 TriumphPay 首次作為一個細分市場進行自籌資金。本季度，TriumphPay 產生了超額資金，以聯邦基金利率投資超額資金，為本季度創造了超過 150 萬美元的利息收入。

Second, certain upfront expenses in TriumphPay burn off over time. It is difficult and it is costly to onboard new clients, but that effort pays off over the long run. As a result, we are more bullish than ever on the long-term value of the network. And for the team and the Board and our long-term investors, we think that is the best news of all.

其次，TriumphPay 的某些前期費用會隨著時間的推移而消耗殆盡。吸引新客戶既困難又昂貴，但從長遠來看，這種努力是有回報的。因此，我們比以往任何時候都更加看好網絡的長期價值。對於團隊、董事會和我們的長期投資者而言，我們認為這是最好的消息。

And so with that intro out of the way, we'll now turn the call over for questions.

因此，隨著介紹的進行，我們現在將把電話轉過來提問。

(Operator Instructions) Our first question comes from Matthew Olney from Stephens.

（操作員說明）我們的第一個問題來自 Stephens 的 Matthew Olney。

Can you guys hear me okay?

你們能聽到我說話嗎？

We hear you fine, Matt.

我們聽到你很好，馬特。

We previously talked about TPay was going to add -- I think it was 4 new brokers that were pretty good size on the system sometime in late fourth quarter, early first quarter. Given the market headwinds that we're seeing right now, it's not easy to see kind of the benefits of these new brokers. Can you just talk more about the ongoing process and the adoption of the TPay product within those dual brokers? And how that compares to some of your internal expectations?

我們之前討論過 TPay 將要添加——我認為在第四季度末、第一季度初的某個時候，系統上有 4 家規模相當大的新經紀人。鑑於我們目前看到的市場逆風，要看到這些新經紀人的好處並不容易。您能否多談談正在進行的流程以及 TPay 產品在這些雙重經紀人中的採用情況？與您的一些內部期望相比如何？

So in Q1, we signed one Tier 1 to audit and went live as well as one Tier 1 or Tier 2 in audit. We also went live with 4 Tier 2s in the first quarter, and our pipeline of both Tier 1s and Tier 2s for payment audit and network remains strong. We expect to bring more on in the second quarter as well as the third quarter. And we can see the clear path of growth for this year based on the Tier 1s and Tier 2s that we have in integrations right now.

因此，在第一季度，我們簽署了一個 1 級審核並上線，以及一個 1 級或 2 級審核。我們還在第一季度啟用了 4 個 2 級，我們用於支付審計和網絡的 1 級和 2 級管道仍然很強大。我們預計將在第二季度和第三季度帶來更多收益。我們可以看到今年基於我們目前在集成中擁有的第 1 層和第 2 層的清晰增長路徑。

And Matt to add to that, since I was the one who made that prediction, the Tier 1s that we thought would be on the on network by this quarter, a few of those have slid to next quarter. And so that volume is yet to come. And that's why we're encouraged that we're able to grow EBITDA before even that volume comes because it proves that we're monetizing the network at a rate that exceeds what our original expectations were. So the pipeline remains full and we continue to work, as Dan said, on bringing those large brokers and all brokers, frankly, onto the network.

Matt 補充一點，因為我是做出該預測的人，我們認為到本季度將在網絡上出現的第 1 層，其中一些已經下滑到下個季度。所以那個數量還沒有到來。這就是為什麼我們感到鼓舞的是，我們能夠在這個數量出現之前就增加 EBITDA，因為它證明我們正在以超出我們最初預期的速度將網絡貨幣化。因此，管道仍然滿載，正如 Dan 所說，我們將繼續努力，坦率地說，將那些大型經紀人和所有經紀人帶入網絡。

And just as a follow-up to that, Aaron, why do you think some of those are sliding? Is it more market conditions? Is it more something else? Any color on kind of why some of those Tier 1s have slid into Tier 2?

作為後續行動，亞倫，你認為為什麼其中一些正在下滑？是更多的市場條件？是不是還有別的東西？關於為什麼其中一些 1 級已滑入 2 級的任何顏色？

The -- well, Tier 1s haven't become Tier 2s, and those are our own calculations. We consider a Tier 1 broker in a normalized market as someone with more than $500 million of purchased transportation spend. The reason they slide is just -- and I think we've alluded to this in the past, an integration with TriumphPay is difficult, technical and requires a lot of resources because it's not just something you can flip on with a switch. And that's why the upfront cost is real. We've been bearing that cost. And like we alluded to that, cost burns off over time.

- 好吧，第 1 層還沒有變成第 2 層，這是我們自己的計算。我們將標準化市場中的一級經紀人視為擁有超過 5 億美元的購買運輸支出的人。他們下滑的原因只是 - 我想我們過去已經提到過，與 TriumphPay 的集成是困難的，技術性的並且需要大量資源，因為它不僅僅是你可以通過開關打開的東西。這就是前期成本真實存在的原因。我們一直在承擔這筆費用。就像我們提到的那樣，成本會隨著時間的推移而消耗掉。

And so we have the technical resources stood up to complete the integration on our side. But of course, we need our broker, our payors who are entering the network to have the technical resources available on their side. And there's just always a competition to have enough resources ready to do this because when you go live with payments, you can't kind of get it right. You have to get it absolutely right and tech projects just oftentimes miss their deadlines. But the pipeline remains, and as soon as we're able to announce the next one, which I think will be this quarter, we will, of course, announce it. And every time we do that just brings more volume into the network.

因此，我們擁有站起來的技術資源來完成我們這邊的集成。但是，當然，我們需要我們的經紀人，我們正在進入網絡的付款人擁有可用的技術資源。並且總是有競爭來準備好足夠的資源來做到這一點，因為當你開始支付時，你無法做到正確。你必須完全正確，而技術項目往往會錯過最後期限。但是管道仍然存在，一旦我們能夠宣布下一個，我認為將在本季度，我們當然會宣布它。每次我們這樣做都會給網絡帶來更多的流量。

That's helpful. And just one more on TPay here. Just about the various fee components for TPay. I know the fees are a smaller number today within TPay, but I'm curious about the types of fees that are currently running through the system today versus the types of fees that we could see as volumes ramp up, whether it's syndication fees, subscription fees, network fees. Just any color on the fees today versus more of the fees on to come.

這很有幫助。 TPay 上還有一個。關於 TPay 的各種費用組成部分。我知道今天 TPay 中的費用較少，但我很好奇目前通過系統運行的費用類型與我們可以看到的費用類型隨著交易量的增加，無論是聯合費用、訂閱費用費，網絡費。今天的費用與未來的更多費用相比，只是任何顏色。

So we currently have subscription fees in our newer brokers that have signed on to our network and on to our invoice and payment audit processing. We also have network fees for factors now running through the system. We have our traditional QuickPay revenue share as well, which is the predominant source of our revenue still.

因此，我們目前在已登錄我們的網絡以及我們的發票和付款審計處理的新經紀人中收取訂閱費。我們還對現在通過系統運行的因素收取網絡費用。我們也有傳統的 QuickPay 收入份額，這仍然是我們收入的主要來源。

But again, we have transitioned new clients to a subscription fee basis are repricing some existing clients to subscription fee, have our first network fees running through from a factor perspective, and we are recognizing more interest income than we have previously by creating our own funds.

但同樣，我們已經將新客戶轉變為訂閱費基礎，正在將一些現有客戶重新定價為訂閱費，從因素的角度來看我們的第一筆網絡費用，我們通過創建自己的基金確認了比以前更多的利息收入.

Our next question comes from Gary Tenner from D.A. Davidson.

我們的下一個問題來自 D.A. 的 Gary Tenner。戴維森。

Wanted to ask, and Aaron, it's something you've talked about in the past a little bit as it relates to kind of the sell-through of the value proposition to the large brokers in a slower growth environment or in a freight recession type environment. So can you give us a little more -- as we're kind of starting to see this evolve, how those conversations have changed? And if there's some degree of increased receptivity to that value proposition?

想問，亞倫，這是你過去談過的事情，因為它涉及在增長放緩的環境或貨運衰退類型的環境中向大型經紀人銷售價值主張.那麼，您能否再給我們一些信息——隨著我們開始看到這種演變，這些對話發生了怎樣的變化？如果對該價值主張的接受度有所提高？

Absolutely. And that's a great question, Gary. I would say there's 3 things that we are talking about now that weren't talked much about a year ago or 1.5 years ago when freight was on fire. Number one, in a softening market, everybody wants more efficiency. And so that discussion of efficiency in the back office is finding far more receptivity today when margins are compressed than it was a year ago.

絕對地。這是一個很好的問題，加里。我想說的是，我們現在談論的有 3 件事在一年前或 1.5 年前貨運業火爆時並沒有太多談論。第一，在疲軟的市場中，每個人都希望提高效率。因此，在利潤率壓縮的今天，關於後台效率的討論比一年前更容易接受。

The second thing, and this is interesting is, 1.5 years ago, the large brokers, some of them -- or all of them probably didn't need a lot of balance sheet help. Now there are cases in which we can step in and provide financing for them alongside what they're doing to provide liquidity to allow them to achieve their goals. That conversation wasn't happening 1.5 years ago.

第二件事，也是有趣的是，1.5 年前，大型經紀商，其中一些 - 或者他們全部可能不需要很多資產負債表的幫助。現在，在某些情況下，我們可以介入並為他們提供融資，同時他們正在做的事情是提供流動性以幫助他們實現目標。 1.5 年前不會發生這種對話。

And then the third, and this has become a very loud conversation, is fraud -- the increase of fraud in transportation has been dramatic. Organized crime has gone after transportation because it's such a big and fragmented industry. And so the ability to use what we do to mitigate fraud is a topic of every conversation we're having. And so as a result of those 3 things and just more time, more proving out the network, those conversations are certainly advancing.

然後是第三個，這已經成為一個非常響亮的話題，是欺詐——運輸中的欺詐行為急劇增加。有組織的犯罪分子盯上了交通運輸業，因為它是一個龐大而分散的行業。因此，使用我們所做的工作來減少欺詐的能力是我們進行的每次對話的主題。因此，由於這三件事和更多的時間，更多的網絡證明，這些對話肯定在推進。

Aaron when you talk about the financing part to the brokers, do you mean them wanting to not use their own balance sheet to fund kind of the QuickPay piece of it? Or are you talking about direct financing or other kind of credit needs to the brokers?

亞倫當你向經紀人談論融資部分時，你的意思是他們不想使用自己的資產負債表來為 QuickPay 部分提供資金嗎？或者你是在談論直接融資或其他類型的經紀人信貸需求？

So first of all, every broker is different. There are some brokers who would never need our balance sheet and some who do it, depends upon how they've constructed themselves. First part, you alluded to, the QuickPay revenue. We have said since the beginning, we are happy to grow the QuickPay program for freight brokers, and they can hold that balance on their balance sheet, and we will charge a fee to the network to administer that program for them or if they want us to hold it on our balance sheet and we remit a profit sharing back to them, we're happy to do that.

所以首先，每個經紀人都是不同的。有些經紀人永遠不需要我們的資產負債表，而有些經紀人則需要，這取決於他們如何構建自己。您提到的第一部分是 QuickPay 收入。我們從一開始就說過，我們很高興為貨運經紀人發展 QuickPay 計劃，他們可以在資產負債表上保留餘額，我們將向網絡收取費用，以便為他們管理該計劃，或者如果他們需要我們將其保留在我們的資產負債表上，並將利潤分享匯回給他們，我們很樂意這樣做。

As to the second part of your question, and this is something I think investors should understand, when we talk about the freight -- the brokered freight mark, it is a $135 billion market. That's actually a misnomer as I think about what TriumphPay's long-term value proposition is. $135 billion is what great broker spend to purchase transportation in an average year.

至於你問題的第二部分，這是我認為投資者應該理解的，當我們談論運費時——經紀運費市場，這是一個 1350 億美元的市場。當我思考 TriumphPay 的長期價值主張時，這實際上是一個用詞不當。 1350 億美元是偉大經紀人平均每年花費在購買運輸上的費用。

Upstream of that spend, those same companies have $150 billion to $160 billion of accounts receivable on behalf of the clients they serve. As TriumphPay has grown and as their needs have changed, our ability to help them on the accounts receivable part of the business is a future growth prospect for TriumphPay. And so this quarter, I think you'll see us step in and provide financing for a few brokers. Not all of them need this, but a few need it. And it's a topic that we're -- a conversation we're having now that we certainly weren't having as regularly 2 years ago.

在這筆支出的上游，這些公司代表他們所服務的客戶擁有 1500 億至 1600 億美元的應收賬款。隨著 TriumphPay 的發展以及他們的需求發生變化，我們在業務的應收賬款部分幫助他們的能力是 TriumphPay 未來的增長前景。所以這個季度，我想你會看到我們介入並為一些經紀人提供融資。並非所有人都需要這個，但有少數人需要。這是我們的一個話題——我們現在正在進行的對話，而我們在 2 年前肯定不會經常進行。

Our next question is from Joe Yanchunis of Rubin James.

我們的下一個問題來自 Rubin James 的 Joe Yanchunis。

So I want to start on expenses. In the 2Q expense guide of minimal sequential growth, is that based on the reported $89.3 million from the first quarter? Or we need to adjust for any certain one-timers? And then also in the past, you've given us some expense goalpost for the December quarter. And I was wondering if you could provide that at this time.

所以我想從開支開始。在最小連續增長的 2Q 支出指南中，這是基於報告的第一季度 8930 萬美元嗎？或者我們需要針對任何特定的一次性人員進行調整？然後在過去，您還為我們提供了 12 月季度的一些費用目標。我想知道你現在是否可以提供。

The run rate expenses from here, yes, you should think about that as based on the $89.5 million that we reported in Q1. As far as goalposts exiting the year, that -- it's really hard to say at this point because we are going to be very nimble about that. We are restraining some expense growth that we might otherwise have undertaken in the near term, just given the state of the freight market and the pressure that's put on our revenues.

這裡的運行率費用，是的，你應該根據我們在第一季度報告的 8950 萬美元來考慮這一點。至於退出今年的球門柱，那 - 在這一點上真的很難說，因為我們將對此非常靈活。考慮到貨運市場的狀況和給我們的收入帶來的壓力，我們正在限制我們可能在短期內承擔的一些費用增長。

So if our revenues stay flat or decline further from here as a result of the freight recession, you will see those expenses held flat. If on the other hand, in the back half of the year or whenever we see a return to revenue growth and healing of the freight market, our expenses are likely to start trending a little bit higher. So I know that makes it a little bit difficult for you to model, but we're going to be nimble and thoughtful about adding expenses from here.

因此，如果我們的收入由於運費衰退而保持不變或進一步下降，您將看到這些費用保持不變。另一方面，如果在下半年或每當我們看到收入恢復增長和貨運市場復甦時，我們的支出可能會開始呈上升趨勢。所以我知道這讓你建模有點困難，但我們會靈活而周到地從這裡增加費用。

Got it. Appreciate it. And then in your prepared commentary, you discussed that by moving the supply chain financing solutions from trying business capital to TPay, it will shift $10 million in EBITDA to TPay. What's the timing on this transition? And do you have a sense for the revenue and expense components of the EBITDA?

知道了。欣賞它。然後在您準備好的評論中，您討論了通過將供應鏈融資解決方案從嘗試商業資本轉移到 TPay，它將 1000 萬美元的 EBITDA 轉移到 TPay。這個過渡的時間是什麼時候？您是否了解 EBITDA 的收入和支出部分？

So the timing of this transition is in the second quarter. That business produces a -- that business produces a high return, and we will be moving that full operation and business into TPay this quarter. Again, we expect on an annual basis for it to create about $10 million in EBITDA and look to grow that over time.

所以這個過渡的時間是在第二季度。該業務產生了 - 該業務產生了高回報，我們將在本季度將全面運營和業務轉移到 TPay 中。同樣，我們預計它每年將創造約 1000 萬美元的 EBITDA，並希望隨著時間的推移而增長。

And Joe, we will call that out for you, right? We want to be transparent about that, that's not organic revenue. That's not part of the EBITDA walk forward. So when that shows up in the next quarter, we'll call it out for you on the revenue and expense. So you can separate that from organic margin that's coming into the business.

喬，我們會為你說出來，對吧？我們希望對此保持透明，這不是有機收入。這不是 EBITDA 前進的一部分。因此，當下個季度出現這種情況時，我們會為您公佈收入和支出。因此，您可以將其與進入業務的有機利潤區分開來。

Appreciate it. And then just a couple of more for me here. And what blended interchange fee? Are you currently signing up new customers at TPay? And how should this trend moving forward? And then as we think about the Truckstop Pay client acquisition, what kind of blended interchange fee do you expect them to join the network at? It looks like in the first quarter, it was about 13 basis points, which at the same rate would imply this transaction would add about $1 million in annualized revenue. Am I thinking about that correctly?

欣賞它。然後我在這裡再說幾句。什麼混合交換費？您目前正在 TPay 註冊新客戶嗎？以及這種趨勢應該如何推進？然後當我們考慮 Truckstop Pay 客戶收購時，您希望他們以什麼樣的混合交換費加入網絡？看起來在第一季度約為 13 個基點，這意味著這筆交易將增加約 100 萬美元的年化收入。我的想法是否正確？

You want to take that one?

你想拿那個嗎？

So I would be -- I think you're doing the math correctly on what these clients were -- where things are now, I would say, again, we talked about when you use interchange fee, we think about subscription fees, network fees and all the fees we charge on both sides of the transaction.

所以我會——我認為你對這些客戶的情況進行了正確的計算——現在的情況，我想再說一遍，我們談到了當你使用交換費時，我們考慮訂閱費、網絡費以及我們對交易雙方收取的所有費用。

I think long term, and we have to distinguish between a network transaction and a non-network transaction. We made $20.3 billion in payments in the quarter, and we charged fees for that. For network transactions, roughly the size of the market today, I mean, if you think on a fully conforming or network transaction, it's over $5, right, is where today's pricing that's borne by both sides of the transaction, not just by one side of the transaction.

我認為從長遠來看，我們必須區分網絡交易和非網絡交易。我們在本季度支付了 203 億美元，並為此收取了費用。對於網絡交易，大致相當於今天的市場規模，我的意思是，如果你考慮完全一致的交易或網絡交易，它超過 5 美元，對，這是今天由交易雙方承擔的定價，而不僅僅是由一方承擔的交易。

That's roughly what it is. That will move. It depends on different volume scales, but that's a good proxy for you. As it relates to the load pay customers who are coming on, their historical pricing with load pay bears no resemblance to what we do at TriumphPay because that wasn't a network. That was just a payment provided mechanism. And so they're going to come in generally our full retail pricing that we're bringing on new customers.

大致就是這樣。那會動的。這取決於不同的音量比例，但這對您來說是一個很好的代理。由於它涉及即將到來的負載付費客戶，他們的負載付費歷史定價與我們在 TriumphPay 所做的沒有任何相似之處，因為那不是一個網絡。那隻是一種支付提供機制。因此，他們通常會採用我們為新客戶帶來的完整零售價格。

How that translates downstream into overall interchange fees or network fees as we think about it on total volumes, we need to come back to you on that. I can't give you a specific number projecting forward at this time because, again, it will depend a lot on growing network transactions. That's the one number that grew on an absolute basis in a quarter where every other number fell.

正如我們在總量上考慮的那樣，這如何將下游轉化為整體交換費或網絡費，我們需要就此與您聯繫。我現在不能給你一個具體的預測數字，因為，同樣，這在很大程度上取決於不斷增長的網絡交易。這是一個在其他所有數字都下降的季度中絕對增長的數字。

And when you see that number goes up, the fee per transaction goes up because we're delivering more value. So you have to kind of build some other assumptions into that set about how much of our total volume becomes network transactions to answer that question with the level of precision I would like to answer it for you.

當你看到這個數字上升時，每筆交易的費用就會上升，因為我們提供了更多價值。因此，您必須在該集合中建立一些其他假設，以了解我們的總量中有多少變成了網絡交易，以便以我想為您回答的精度水平回答該問題。

So I just don't think we have components to kind of back into that. So maybe you can help me out, could you break down the subscription network fee and QuickPay fee that TPay generated in the first quarter?

所以我只是認為我們沒有可以回到那個的組件。那麼也許你能幫我解決一下，你能分解一下TPay在第一季度產生的訂閱網絡費用和QuickPay費用嗎？

I don't know if we have that in -- I don't know that we have those exact numbers in the silos to prepare to give to you today. We will come back -- we will go back -- if that's something the market wants to understand, we will go back and look at that and see if we can deliver that back to everybody to help them understand.

我不知道我們是否有這個——我不知道我們在孤島中有那些確切的數字準備今天給你。我們會回來——我們會回去——如果這是市場想要了解的東西，我們會回去看看，看看我們是否能把它反饋給每個人，幫助他們理解。

Again, it depends a little bit on legacy clients, new clients. It's not just a one-and-done number. So we're not going to give you those specific components right now, but we will go do our work and come back with an answer that we think answers both what we did historically and what we intend to do in the future, and we'll share that with the market.

同樣，它在一定程度上取決於舊客戶和新客戶。這不僅僅是一個一次性的數字。所以我們現在不會給你那些具體的組件，但我們會去做我們的工作，然後給出一個我們認為既能回答我們過去所做的事情又能回答我們未來打算做的事情的答案，我們'將與市場分享。

Joe, if I can add to that, there is a piece of that you can see today. When you look at our segments reporting on our -- the letter that we sent last night, the interest income, that $2.7 million that you see in the payment segment, that would be the QuickPay part of that. The noninterest income that you see, the $3.9 million, $4 million number is going to be a combination of all of the other fees, but we have not broken it down more granularly than that.

喬，如果我可以補充一點，你今天可以看到其中的一部分。當您查看我們的細分市場報告時 - 我們昨晚發送的信件，利息收入，您在支付細分市場中看到的 270 萬美元，這將是其中的 QuickPay 部分。你看到的非利息收入，390 萬美元，400 萬美元的數字將是所有其他費用的組合，但我們沒有比這更細化。

Our next question comes from Timothy Switzer from KBW.

我們的下一個問題來自 KBW 的 Timothy Switzer。

On for Michael Perito. I just have -- I just have one quick one about -- you mentioned how onboarding is very technical. It takes some time. And can you kind of help us break down maybe what the upfront cost is for a broker who is signing up for TPay. And I don't necessarily mean just like kind of the tax spend they need to do, but also total manpower things like that. And what percentage of the upper costs are borne by Triumph versus the broker?

邁克爾佩里托。我只是 - 我只是有一個關於 - 你提到入職是如何非常技術性的。這需要一些時間。你能幫我們分析一下註冊 TPay 的經紀人的前期成本是多少嗎？我的意思不一定是他們需要做的那種稅收支出，而是像這樣的總人力。與經紀人相比，Triumph 承擔了多少較高的成本？

For large brokers who have custom-built TMSs like we're talking about very largest brokers, it's a 7-figure expense. And for some of them, it could approach $2 million. It depends upon how they allocate resources internally. It's no small decision. We do not generally bear any of that cost. That is their cost to onboard, which goes into their calculation of the long-term value proposition of the network to their operations. For smaller brokers who are on -- and off-the-shelf TMS, it is a much lower number and happens much quicker.

對於擁有定制 TMS 的大型經紀商（如我們所說的非常大的經紀商）來說，這是一筆 7 位數的費用。對於其中一些人來說，它可能接近 200 萬美元。這取決於他們如何在內部分配資源。這是一個不小的決定。我們通常不承擔任何費用。這就是他們的加入成本，這會進入他們計算網絡對其運營的長期價值主張。對於使用和現成 TMS 的小型經紀人來說，這個數字要低得多，而且發生得更快。

Okay. That's helpful. And I don't even know if this is like a reasonable question you guys are good at answer, but is there -- is this great recession lasts and spot rates maybe go a little bit lower volume decreases what's kind of like the floor of where factoring volumes can drop for you? And would there be any willingness on your side to maybe take a little bit of market share volumes drop for that?

好的。這很有幫助。而且我什至不知道這是否是一個你們擅長回答的合理問題，但是否存在 - 這場大衰退是否會持續，即期利率可能會略微下降，交易量會減少，就像底線一樣保理業務量會下降嗎？您是否願意為此降低一點市場份額？

Tim, why don't you start with that one?

蒂姆，你為什麼不從那個開始呢？

So Tim, it's really difficult to predict because the challenge we run to has historically been through these cycles 5 or 6 times in my career in the factoring space. And so it's really difficult to understand when something is going to end, what the impact is. We are certainly above the 2019 levels and hope to maintain that, but it's so unpredictable and don't really know where it's going to land.

所以蒂姆，這真的很難預測，因為在我的保理領域職業生涯中，我們遇到的挑戰在歷史上已經經歷了 5 或 6 次這些週期。所以真的很難理解什麼時候結束，影響是什麼。我們當然高於 2019 年的水平，並希望保持這一水平，但它是如此不可預測，並且真的不知道它會落在哪裡。

And the other thing, your question was, would we take market share? We are standing by what we told the market, we're people of our word. We said to the factoring market. We -- our market position is roughly 15% of the market, and that's what we intend for it to be. Now the market has shrunk right? Is it is contracted. I do think you will see us backfill a significant amount of that lost revenue with the supply chain financing we are providing to the brokerage industry, because that opportunity as TriumphPay grows, our reach is much further.

另一件事，你的問題是，我們會搶占市場份額嗎？我們堅持我們告訴市場的話，我們是言出必行的人。我們說到保理市場。我們——我們的市場地位大約佔市場的 15%，這就是我們的目標。現在市場縮水了吧？是不是簽約了。我確實認為你會看到我們通過向經紀行業提供的供應鏈融資來彌補大量損失的收入，因為隨著 TriumphPay 的增長，我們的影響範圍會更遠。

And frankly, the credit risk profile is not materially different. And so if we see growth, it will be there. It will not be going after us taking market share. We're going to be in the market and competitive in factory. We're going to deliver a great product, a great service, but we're not going to use this opportunity to compete against our very network constituent. We'll be a friendly -- I mean, we'll be a competitor, but we're not going after them. But I do think you can see some of that revenue come back through the supply chain financing opportunity we provide to the brokerage market.

坦率地說，信用風險狀況並沒有實質性不同。因此，如果我們看到增長，它就會存在。它不會追隨我們奪取市場份額。我們將進入市場並在工廠中具有競爭力。我們將提供出色的產品、出色的服務，但我們不會利用這個機會與我們的網絡成員競爭。我們會很友好——我的意思是，我們會成為競爭對手，但我們不會去追逐他們。但我確實認為你可以通過我們為經紀市場提供的供應鏈融資機會看到部分收入回歸。

Our next question comes from John Rau at Wells Fargo.

我們的下一個問題來自富國銀行的 John Rau。

This is John on for [David Shaw]. I guess -- just one other quick question on the TriumphPay net interest income that was generated this quarter from the excess funding that you had in the segment. Is that something that we could see as sustainable quarter-over-quarter? Or is that more of like a onetime thing that was impacted by some fact this quarter?

我是 [David Shaw] 的約翰。我想 - 這只是本季度從您在該部門擁有的超額資金中產生的 TriumphPay 淨利息收入的另一個快速問題。這是我們可以看到的每季度可持續的東西嗎？或者這更像是本季度受某些事實影響的一次性事件？

No, we would expect as volume goes up, float goes up. So it was not episodic. You've just seen us bring on significant amount of volume and bring all the payments back into the network. The one thing that may happen is as TriumphPay has opportunities to provide supply chain financing to network constituents, we may not be in an excess funding position such that you're getting Fed fund rates on those excess balances. If that is true, you should expect the revenues we will generate on those funds to be much higher than Fed fund balances.

不，我們預計隨著交易量的增加，浮存金也會增加。所以這不是偶發的。您剛剛看到我們帶來了大量的交易量並將所有付款帶回網絡。可能發生的一件事是，由於 TriumphPay 有機會為網絡成員提供供應鏈融資，我們可能不會處於過剩資金狀況，因此您可以獲得這些過剩餘額的聯邦基金利率。如果這是真的，你應該期望我們從這些基金中產生的收入會比聯邦基金餘額高得多。

Okay. And then I guess, just looking at the trend in invoice prices, could you talk about kind of the trend throughout the quarter? Like what was the average for like February or March? And kind of how does that compare to what you're seeing today? I know it's kind of hard to predict the things moving around so quickly, but just a little bit more color on the last few months you've been seeing in that?

好的。然後我想，看看發票價格的趨勢，你能談談整個季度的趨勢嗎？比如 2 月或 3 月的平均值是多少？與您今天所看到的相比，這又如何呢？我知道很難預測變化如此之快的事物，但過去幾個月你看到的只是多了一點顏色？

John, we had a fairly decent or -- excuse me, a fairly decent month in January, and then we saw a falloff in February and March. And a lot of that had to do with the average price of fuel. It's sort of the drop as well. So the prices, in general, just continue to drop throughout that first quarter. It has maintained some level of volatility, but it's still fairly soft where we sit today.

約翰，我們在 1 月份有一個相當不錯的或 - 對不起，一個相當不錯的月份，然後我們在 2 月和 3 月看到了下滑。其中很大一部分與燃料的平均價格有關。這也是一種下降。因此，總的來說，價格在整個第一季度都在繼續下跌。它保持了一定程度的波動，但我們今天所處的位置仍然相當疲軟。

Big average invoice prices month-to-date for April, the best real-time data we can give you is just under $1,800. They could go up, they could go down. We make no predictions on that. We will tell you and I think Tim would tell you this, is that level is pretty close to where most truckers would struggle to break even to run truckload because we don't have -- we didn't really have more long-haul truckload exposure.

4 月至今的大平均發票價格，我們可以為您提供的最佳實時數據略低於 1,800 美元。他們可以上升，也可以下降。我們對此不做任何預測。我們會告訴你，我想 Tim 會告訴你，這個水平是否非常接近大多數卡車司機為了運載卡車而難以達到收支平衡的水平，因為我們沒有——我們真的沒有更多的長途卡車裝載量接觸。

We have some shipper exposure in our blended portfolio, which is helping -- holding us higher than what the spot market alone has done. And eventually, and I've been through a couple of these cycles and Tim has been through 5 of them, eventually, low prices will be the solution to low prices. I mean we went from 12,000 clients at Triumph in our factoring division, they are having roughly 10,000. Some of those people have left the industry altogether. Others have leased on with much larger carriers. It could get worse from here. It would not surprise us. We make -- if we could predict that, we would be in a different kind of business.

我們在我們的混合投資組合中有一些托運人敞口，這有助於 - 使我們高於單獨的現貨市場所做的事情。最終，我經歷了幾個這樣的周期，蒂姆經歷了其中的 5 個，最終，低價將成為低價的解決方案。我的意思是我們保理部門的 Triumph 有 12,000 名客戶，現在他們大約有 10,000 名。其中一些人已經完全離開了這個行業。其他人則租用了更大的承運人。從這裡開始情況可能會變得更糟。這不會讓我們感到驚訝。我們做——如果我們能預測到這一點，我們將從事一種不同的業務。

But what we know is, inevitably, people will still buy things. Capacity leaves the market and the market will tighten. And of course, in our business, that's a very profitable thing. And fuel is a great unknown. It's 20% to 30% of the cost, and we never know what OPEC is going to do. We don't know there's just things that are out of our control. And our job is to be valuable and profitable whether invoices are $1,780 or $2,400. And frankly, 5 years from now, I think we're going to look back at this and say, yes, it wasn't fun. So you see our earnings contract for a season, but I think the opportunities that will give us as an enterprise for the future, will far outweigh any near-term contraction in our earnings.

但我們所知道的是，人們不可避免地仍會購買東西。產能離開市場，市場將收緊。當然，在我們的業務中，這是一件非常有利可圖的事情。燃料是一個很大的未知數。這是成本的 20% 到 30%，我們永遠不知道 OPEC 會做什麼。我們不知道有些事情是我們無法控制的。我們的工作是有價值和有利可圖的，無論發票是 1,780 美元還是 2,400 美元。坦率地說，5 年後，我想我們會回顧這件事，然後說，是的，這並不有趣。所以你看到我們一個季度的收入收縮，但我認為這將給我們作為未來企業帶來的機會，將遠遠超過我們收入的任何近期收縮。

Okay. That's very helpful. And then just one more quick one for me. There was some talk of seeing some better risk-adjusted returns in the community bank last quarter. I'm just kind of wondering if that's still something that you're seeing today or we should expect growth in the community bank still in 2023?

好的。這很有幫助。然後再給我一個快速的。有人說上個季度社區銀行的風險調整後回報會更好。我只是想知道這是否仍然是您今天看到的東西，或者我們應該期望社區銀行在 2023 年仍會增長？

Yes. I'll take that one. So yes, we were seeing better economics, better risk-adjusted returns in the fourth quarter. We've sort of seen a plateauing in returns that are available with new deal flow. And so I wouldn't say that we're more excited today about the pricing than we were in the fourth quarter, but we continue to monitor it. So if we do see better risk-adjusted returns on the right credits, we'll be ready to step in.

是的。我會拿那個。所以，是的，我們在第四季度看到了更好的經濟、更好的風險調整後回報。我們已經看到新交易流帶來的回報趨於平穩。所以我不會說我們今天對定價比第四季度更興奮，但我們會繼續監控它。因此，如果我們確實看到正確信貸的風險調整後回報更好，我們將準備介入。

Our next question comes from Joe Yanchunis from Raymond James, again.

我們的下一個問題再次來自 Raymond James 的 Joe Yanchunis。

Just had a couple more for me. So kind of going back to Matt's question. On the 2Q '22 call, you announced the $15 billion in annualized payment volume that was being integrated into TPay. So I understand that the market downturn has caused a number of change, what percent of that volume has already been realized?

剛給我多了幾個。回到馬特的問題。在 2Q '22 電話會議上，您宣布了將整合到 TPay 中的 150 億美元年化支付量。所以我知道市場低迷已經引起了一些變化，已經實現了多少百分比的變化？

Less than 30%.

不到 30%。

Okay. And spot rates aside...

好的。除了即期匯率...

So you could -- so Joe, you could either say that's bad news or good news. Aaron, you could say Aaron's lousy at predicting timing, I'll own that, things took longer. Well, the good news is, we're growing EBITDA in spite of not yet having that volume. So -- but that's where we are.

所以你可以——喬，你可以說這是壞消息或好消息。亞倫，你可以說亞倫在預測時間方面很糟糕，我承認這一點，事情花了更長的時間。嗯，好消息是，儘管還沒有那個數量，但我們正在增長 EBITDA。所以 - 但這就是我們所在的位置。

Absolutely. I'm just trying to understand the volume component kind of moving forward. And I did see that as of last week, C.H. Robinson did golfer spot rates that steel trough this month. Obviously, that's just another prediction that's out there. But one of the things I was hoping you could help me with is how have volumes changed throughout April because they were down pretty handedly in the first quarter?

絕對地。我只是想了解向前發展的體積組件。上週我確實看到了，C.H.羅賓遜的高爾夫球手現貨價格本月跌至谷底。顯然，這只是另一個預測。但是我希望你能幫助我的一件事是整個 4 月份的交易量發生了怎樣的變化，因為它們在第一季度下降得非常快？

Yes. So I think one of the most interesting things is when you get to a point where rates are at the level they are as carriers are very selective on what they haul, when they haul. And if it's not an ideal scenario, they'll park assets. And they also look at using the most efficient pieces of equipment.

是的。因此，我認為最有趣的事情之一是，當您到達費率處於他們所處水平的地步時，因為承運人在拖運時對他們拖運的東西非常有選擇性。如果情況不理想，他們會停放資產。他們還著眼於使用最高效的設備。

So if they have older equipment, they'll sit on the fence and they'll just pull back capacity when it gets to a point where we are today, Joe. So I think it's -- there's definitely some opportunities here coming up, we hope, but it's really difficult to make any sort of prediction about it.

因此，如果他們擁有較舊的設備，他們就會持觀望態度，當它達到我們今天的水平時，他們就會撤回產能，喬。所以我認為這是 - 我們希望這里肯定會有一些機會，但很難對此做出任何預測。

And we would expect, Joe, that as long as rates stay low, utilization will stay low, right? People don't like driving and losing money to do so. And so when you build a model to try to predict our future earnings, you can't just plug spot rates and you have to think about utilization, which I know you all have followed us long enough to do that. But point is the drivers are getting paid less so they're driving less. And those two things work together.

我們預計，喬，只要利率保持低位，利用率就會保持低位，對嗎？人們不喜歡開車，也不喜歡為此賠錢。因此，當你建立一個模型來嘗試預測我們未來的收益時，你不能只插入即期匯率，你必須考慮利用率，我知道你們已經關注我們足夠長的時間來做到這一點。但重點是司機的工資越來越低，所以他們開車的次數也越來越少。這兩件事一起工作。

And my next question is from Brad Milsaps from Piper Sandler & Companies.

我的下一個問題來自 Piper Sandler & Companies 的 Brad Milsaps。

You guys have addressed almost everything. Just had a quick follow-up question on the bank, and I apologize if you addressed it. But just curious how much longer you can kind of hold deposit rates as low as they are? I know last quarter you said you were just really exception pricing kind of on a one-off basis. But obviously, very low relative to the industry, I get that you only need tons of funding. But just curious what kind of project point that could be out there?

你們幾乎已經解決了所有問題。剛剛有一個關於銀行的快速跟進問題，如果您解決了，我深表歉意。但只是好奇您可以將存款利率保持在多長時間？我知道上個季度你說你只是一次性的例外定價。但顯然，相對於行業來說非常低，我知道你只需要大量資金。但只是好奇那裡可能有什麼樣的項目點？

Yes, go ahead, Todd.

是的，繼續吧，托德。

Sure. Yes. So we're continuing to manage deposit rates through exception only for the time being, don't really expect to change that at any point in the foreseeable future. We feel really good about where we stand. We haven't seen an uptick in the number of rate exception requests, the levels that we're receiving for rate exceptions has remained the same.

當然。是的。因此，我們暫時僅通過例外情況繼續管理存款利率，不要真的期望在可預見的未來的任何時候改變它。我們對自己的立場感覺非常好。我們沒有看到費率例外請求的數量有所增加，我們收到的費率例外請求水平保持不變。

With that said, we do expect continued pressure. So we're going to see -- we're so far below what the top of the market is on rates. We'll continue to have to make great exceptions through time to retain our deposits. And we'll do so when warranted based on the relationship that we have with the client.

話雖如此，我們確實預計會有持續的壓力。所以我們將看到——我們目前的利率遠低於市場最高水平。隨著時間的推移，我們將繼續做出重大例外以保留我們的存款。根據我們與客戶的關係，我們會在有保證的情況下這樣做。

So I do expect that we'll continue to see deposit cost of funds -- deposit costs rise. They may rise a little faster than what you've seen over the course of the last couple of quarters, and we'll try to contain it as much as possible, but we're not going to let a big deposit outflow occur from our core deposit base.

所以我確實希望我們會繼續看到資金的存款成本——存款成本上升。它們的增長速度可能比你在過去幾個季度看到的要快一些，我們會盡可能地控制它，但我們不會讓我們的存款大量流出核心存款基地。

Brad, as I alluded to, Todd and the team are doing a great job with that. A couple of things are in our favor. So first of all, our deposit costs will go up. There is no question. We have performed well. I think we will continue to perform well relative to peer, but I don't think anyone should extrapolate from the last quarter and that we can hold it forever at that level of discount to what the Fed funds -- the other rates have moved.

布拉德，正如我提到的，托德和團隊在這方面做得很好。有幾件事對我們有利。所以首先，我們的存款成本會上升。毫無疑問。我們表現很好。我認為相對於同行我們將繼續表現良好，但我認為任何人都不應該從上個季度推斷出我們可以永遠保持在聯邦基金利率的折扣水平 - 其他利率已經變動。

The things in our favor. Number one, it's a very fragmented deposit base. We don't have concentration -- liquidity concentration, for example. Number two, we are growing noninterest-bearing deposits by virtue of the float we grow in the network. And number three, and this has been our refrain and it will continue to be our refrain, we are not a prisoner to growing assets. Our belief is we should grow the things that make us the most money for our investors.

對我們有利的事情。第一，這是一個非常分散的存款基礎。我們沒有集中——例如流動性集中。第二，由於我們在網絡中增長的浮動，我們正在增加無息存款。第三，這一直是我們的克制，它將繼續是我們的克制，我們不是資產增長的囚徒。我們的信念是，我們應該種植能為我們的投資者帶來最多收益的產品。

And so when you're in a position to not have a bunch of loan growth that you need to go fund regardless of the cost, you can be more disciplined. That's why we're doing it. We don't have any magic. It's just as a result of those things, the fragmentation, the float we create and the fact that we're not just going to always trying to be growing our asset base gives us the ability to -- what we hope to do is to continue to outperform our peers as it relates to deposit beta.

因此，當您無法獲得大量貸款增長而無論成本如何，您都需要為其提供資金時，您可以更加自律。這就是我們這樣做的原因。我們沒有任何魔法。正是這些事情的結果，碎片化，我們創造的浮動以及我們不只是總是試圖增加我們的資產基礎這一事實使我們有能力 - 我們希望做的是繼續在存款貝塔方面優於我們的同行。

Great. That's helpful. And Aaron, I know there are a lot of new parts and you trying to address this in some ways. But any predictions, I know in the past, you've given on total revenue this year, Triumph Business Capital. Just kind of curious, I know it's tough with all the moving parts, but just curious if you could offer any color or guidance there around kind of how you're thinking about revenue this year.

偉大的。這很有幫助。亞倫，我知道有很多新的部分，你正試圖以某種方式解決這個問題。但我知道，過去你對今年的總收入做出了任何預測，Triumph Business Capital。只是有點好奇，我知道所有移動部件都很難，但只是好奇你是否可以提供任何顏色或指導，說明你如何考慮今年的收入。

If I tried to do it, my CFO would tackle me. Number two, I wouldn't be telling you the truth because I have no idea. But I like eventually, what is going to happen is the market will capitulate and enough capacity will leave the system and shippers will burn through their excess inventory and freight will get tight, and it will happen way sooner than anyone thinks. Whether it happens this year or next year, I have no idea.

如果我嘗試這樣做，我的首席財務官就會對付我。第二，我不會告訴你真相，因為我不知道。但我喜歡最終，將會發生的事情是市場將投降，足夠的運力將離開系統，托運人將消耗掉他們的過剩庫存，運費將變得緊張，而且它會比任何人想像的更快發生。是今年還是明年，我不知道。

So we've given you expense guidance and we will -- that's something we could control. As you saw in the letter, we know we are willing to take revenue volatility. That is the risk we take. We try not to take credit risk, liquidity risk, interest rate risk. So if that's the nature of your business, then this is the time in which you should not be making predictions.

因此，我們已經為您提供了費用指導，我們會——這是我們可以控制的。正如您在信中看到的那樣，我們知道我們願意承受收入波動。這就是我們承擔的風險。我們盡量不承擔信用風險、流動性風險、利率風險。因此，如果這是您的業務性質，那麼此時您不應該做出預測。

What I will predict is we are going to be profitable, no matter what happens because we're so well positioned relative to any peers and because we have such a growth engine in TriumphPay that needs what we're doing. And that really -- I'm not trying to not answer the question. I just couldn't possibly answer it for you, Brad. That's as good as I can do.

我預測的是，無論發生什麼情況，我們都將盈利，因為我們相對於任何同行都處於有利地位，並且因為我們在 TriumphPay 擁有這樣一個增長引擎，需要我們正在做的事情。那真的——我並不是想不回答這個問題。我只是不可能為你回答，布拉德。我已經盡力了。

No problem. It's tough for us, too. And then maybe finally, are you pretty much done with all your capital actions in terms of -- obviously, you had the ASR, but how should we think about periodic buybacks going forward. And I think as this quarter, any further thoughts on taking out those higher cost trust preferreds that you have? It seems like if you're do looking for ways to generate earnings, that would be a pretty simple one. That's it for me.

沒問題。對我們來說也很艱難。然後也許最後，你是否已經完成所有資本行動——顯然，你有 ASR，但我們應該如何考慮未來的定期回購。我認為在本季度，您是否有進一步考慮取消您擁有的那些成本較高的信託偏好？看起來，如果您正在尋找產生收入的方法，那將是一個非常簡單的方法。對我來說就是這樣。

Yes. And I'm glad you asked that question about capital because I think that's something investors wonder about. So as a reminder, the capital that was required to complete the ASR left the building last quarter, right? That capital went out the door. We're not done with the ASR that we're in the market right now, and we'll find out sometime in the second quarter, I'm sure wouldn't surprise me if they're in the market buying today, right?

是的。我很高興你問了這個關於資本的問題，因為我認為這是投資者想知道的事情。所以提醒一下，完成 ASR 所需的資金上個季度離開了大樓，對吧？那資本就出門了。我們還沒有完成我們現在在市場上的 ASR，我們會在第二季度的某個時候發現，如果他們今天在市場上購買，我相信我不會感到驚訝，對吧？

It would be a good opportunity for them. So after the end of this quarter, we would have over $130 million of excess capital. So there are only 2 uses for that: Number one, we want to make sure we're positioned and at least have the authorization to do so that should our shares fall because people are concerned about near-term earnings and missing long-term opportunities, you should expect we will be in the market because we believe in what we're doing, and we can see it.

這對他們來說將是一個很好的機會。因此，本季度末後，我們將擁有超過 1.3 億美元的過剩資本。所以它只有兩個用途：第一，我們要確保我們的定位並且至少有授權這樣做，以防我們的股票下跌，因為人們擔心近期收益而錯過長期機會，您應該期望我們會進入市場，因為我們相信我們正在做的事情，並且我們可以看到它。

The second thing that we would do is because of the distress in the freight markets, because venture capital funding and debt has dried up, there are opportunities for us to partner with, invest in and perhaps even acquire companies which augment what TriumphPay is doing. And so we continue to look at those opportunities. Those are the 2 things as we think about this excess capital, which will continue to grow, we expect over the year of how we would use those funds.

我們要做的第二件事是由於貨運市場的困境，因為風險投資資金和債務已經枯竭，我們有機會與公司合作、投資甚至收購可以增強 TriumphPay 正在做的事情的公司。因此，我們繼續關注這些機會。這些是我們考慮過剩資本的兩件事，它將繼續增長，我們預計在一年內我們將如何使用這些資金。

And Brad, I'll answer your -- the second part of your question about the trust preferreds. Simply put, no, we're not going to call those. That would -- number one, put about a $10 million hole in our capital base because we've got those securities carried at a discount from when we acquired the banks that originally issued them. Number two, it's valuable Tier 1 capital that can't be replaced in this market. That structure, as you all well know, just does not exist anymore, and we'll continue to benefit from that going forward.

布拉德，我會回答你的 - 你關於信任偏好的問題的第二部分。簡而言之，不，我們不會調用它們。這將 - 第一，在我們的資本基礎上造成大約 1000 萬美元的缺口，因為我們以低於我們收購最初發行它們的銀行時的折扣價持有這些證券。第二，是在這個市場上無法替代的有價值的一級資本。眾所周知，這種結構已不復存在，我們將繼續從中受益。

And the third thing, I think this gets lost on some people is we do remain asset sensitive as a bank overall, and those are floating rate liabilities, some of our only true floating rate liabilities. So in a scenario where interest rates start to go back down having those floating rate liabilities on our balance sheet is actually beneficial to us. So you're not going to see those going anywhere anytime soon.

第三，我認為有些人忽略了這一點，我們作為一家銀行確實對資產保持敏感，而這些是浮動利率負債，是我們唯一真正的浮動利率負債。因此，在利率開始回落的情況下，在我們的資產負債表上擁有這些浮動利率負債實際上對我們有利。所以你不會很快看到那些人去任何地方。

There are no further questions on this line at this time. So we'll now hand over to the phone line for further Q&A. Thank you, Melinda.

目前此行沒有其他問題。所以我們現在將移交給電話線進行進一步的問答。謝謝你，梅琳達。

(Operator Instructions) We go to our first question from the line of a private investor, PM Kumar.

（操作員說明）我們從私人投資者 PM Kumar 的角度來看我們的第一個問題。

Can you guys hear me?

你們能聽到我說話嗎？

Yes.

是的。

Aaron. I have a question for you. In the letter, you mentioned TriumphPay audit and TriumphPay payment annualized volume represents over 20% of the brokered freight market in the U.S. So the remaining 80% of the volume in the market, is that through legacy payment process with manual checking and payment? Or are there similar offerings similar to TriumphPay that customers are using? And if yes, can you talk about the competitive positioning of TriumphPay?

亞倫。我有一個問題問你。在信中，你提到 TriumphPay 審計和 TriumphPay 支付年化量占美國貨運代理市場的 20% 以上，那麼市場上剩下的 80% 的量是通過傳統的支付流程進行人工檢查和支付的嗎？或者是否有客戶正在使用的類似於 TriumphPay 的類似產品？如果是，您能談談 TriumphPay 的競爭定位嗎？

Yes. Great question. To our knowledge, there is no one in the market that is doing payments on behalf of the brokered freight market like we do. There are other providers -- legacy providers who do audit services for brokers. And I don't know that any of them are publicly traded, and so I wouldn't be able to speak to the volume of audit that they're doing. .

是的。很好的問題。據我們所知，市場上沒有人像我們一樣代表貨運代理市場進行支付。還有其他提供商——為經紀人提供審計服務的傳統提供商。而且我不知道他們中的任何一個是公開交易的，所以我無法談論他們正在進行的審計量。 .

All I can tell you is when you look at audit and payment for us, we touch 1 out of every 5 transactions in brokered freight. There is no one else doing payments at scale, and there are other audit provider companies. I can think of 5 off the top of my head. There's probably more than that. I would believe that we are among the largest, if not the largest, in audit services to broker freight, but I'm not certain that we are the largest.

我只能告訴你的是，當你查看我們的審計和付款時，我們會觸及每 5 筆經紀貨運交易中的 1 筆。沒有其他人在進行大規模支付，還有其他審計提供商公司。我可以想到 5 個。可能不止於此。我相信我們是最大的，如果不是最大的，為經紀貨運提供審計服務，但我不確定我們是最大的。

And I had a follow-up question on that. So right now, the volume that we touch TriumphPay taxes is about 20%. Where do you expect that to go in the next 2, 3, 5 years? Like what percent of market share would you think based on your current conversation with customers and their experience and all the future improvements. Like where do you think -- roughly -- and I know nobody has a crystal ball, just roughly where do you -- where is the team's expectations?

我對此有一個後續問題。所以現在，我們觸及 TriumphPay 稅的數量約為 20%。您預計在接下來的 2、3、5 年內它會走向何方？根據您當前與客戶的對話、他們的經驗以及所有未來的改進，您認為市場份額的百分比是多少。就像你認為 - 粗略 - 我知道沒有人有水晶球，你大致在哪裡 - 團隊的期望在哪裡？

Yes. Well, so we'd love to have all of it. We know that, that would be impossible. So how I think about it, and Dan will jump in and correct if he think I said any of it, we can have different perspectives on this because Dan ran a large freight brokerage, but the top 30 freight brokers -- those are over $500 million in spend. They control roughly 40% of the market, okay?

是的。好吧，所以我們很想擁有這一切。我們知道，那是不可能的。所以我是怎麼想的，如果 Dan 認為我說了任何一個，他會跳進來糾正，我們可以對此有不同的看法，因為 Dan 經營著一家大型貨運經紀公司，但排名前 30 位的貨運經紀公司 - 超過 500 美元萬元的支出。他們控制了大約 40% 的市場，好嗎？

The top 1,000 freight brokers control 90% of the market. So once you get below the top 1,000, you've got another 7,000 or 8,000 freight brokers who are the long tail of the industry. And we have some of those as clients.

排名前 1,000 的貨運經紀人控制著 90% 的市場份額。因此，一旦您低於前 1,000 名，您就會擁有另外 7,000 或 8,000 名貨運經紀人，他們是該行業的長尾。我們有一些客戶。

Let's return to the Tier 1s. We are integrated with, I believe, it's 18 now with the one that went live. So 18 of the top 30 use us for audit, payment or both. We have already told you that throughout the rest of this year, you will see additional Tier 1 brokers come on to the platform. And so the density of penetration at the Tier 1 level is going to go up. And again, that's 40%, give or take, of the market.

讓我們回到第 1 層。我相信，我們現在已經 18 歲了，已經上線了。因此，前 30 名中有 18 家使用我們進行審計、付款或兩者兼而有之。我們已經告訴過您，在今年餘下的時間裡，您會看到更多的一級經紀商加入該平台。因此，一級的滲透密度將會上升。同樣，這佔市場的 40%。

My own belief is what the Tier 1 brokers do, if they recognize the efficiencies and the economies of scale and all the value propositions that we're doing for them, the Tier 2s and Tier 3s are going to follow. Because the thing is they all use the same carriers to haul their loads. Whenever a new Tier 1, our Tier 2 broker comes on, we have paid 97% of their carriers, 95% of their carriers.

我自己的信念是一級經紀人所做的，如果他們認識到效率和規模經濟以及我們為他們所做的所有價值主張，那麼二級和三級經紀人將會效仿。因為問題是他們都使用相同的承運人來拖運他們的貨物。每當新的一級，我們的二級經紀人出現時，我們已經支付了他們 97% 的承運人，95% 的承運人。

We're also able to tell them, hey, some of these carriers you've paid we don't think they're actually hauling your loads, like that is valuable information that the industry has not had the ability to get at scale. So what the Tier 1s do, I think the rest of the market follows. And along the way, we're adding those midsized brokers and each one of them matters. Dan, what else would you add to that?

我們還可以告訴他們，嘿，你付錢的一些承運人我們認為他們實際上並沒有在拖運你的貨物，就像這是行業沒有能力大規模獲得的有價值的信息。因此，我認為 1 級企業會做什麼，其他市場也會效仿。一路走來，我們正在增加那些中型經紀人，他們每個人都很重要。丹，你還有什麼要補充的嗎？

Yes, I think that our pipeline and what we are currently in conversations and in integration with, we believe we can move that percentage up 30% to 40% to 50% over time. Our internal targets on a 2-year basis approach those numbers. We have the proper path to get there. We can see the growth that's coming for the balance of this year. And as we start to recognize the amount of freight that we touch through audit, through payments, through the network as a whole, that number will move towards that -- towards that 50% ultimately.

是的，我認為我們的管道以及我們目前正在對話和整合的內容，我們相信隨著時間的推移，我們可以將該百分比提高 30% 到 40% 到 50%。我們 2 年的內部目標接近這些數字。我們有正確的路徑到達那裡。我們可以看到今年餘下時間的增長。當我們開始認識到我們通過審計、支付、整個網絡接觸到的貨運量時，這個數字將朝著那個方向發展——最終朝著 50% 的方向發展。

If I may ask one more question. Are there any new offerings that the team is looking in conjunction with TriumphPay anything that the team can acquire that would strength in the network as a whole or any new offering that the team is trying to build internally or opportunity areas that would strengthen the network of TriumphPay.

如果我可以再問一個問題。團隊是否正在尋找與 TriumphPay 結合使用的任何新產品？團隊可以獲得的任何可以增強整個網絡的產品或團隊正在嘗試在內部構建的任何新產品或可以加強網絡的機會領域嗎？凱旋支付。

Yes. We're not prepared to talk about those now, but we have things that we think about as money moves from the shipper to the broker, to the carrier, the carrier spend. There are things we can do. And when we're ready to talk about those things, the market will hear.

是的。我們現在不准備談論這些，但是隨著資金從托運人轉移到經紀人，再轉移到承運人，承運人花費，我們會考慮一些事情。有些事情我們可以做。當我們準備好談論這些事情時，市場就會聽到。

(Operator Instructions) It appears we have no further signals. I'll now turn today's program back over to our presenters for any additional or closing remarks.

（操作員說明）看來我們沒有進一步的信號。現在，我將把今天的節目轉回給我們的主持人，聽取任何補充或結束語。

Thank you all for joining us. We look forward to seeing you next time. Have a great day.

謝謝大家加入我們。我們期待下次再見。祝你有美好的一天。

Thank you. This does conclude today's program. We thank you for your participation. You may disconnect your lines at any time.

謝謝。今天的節目到此結束。我們感謝您的參與。您可以隨時斷開線路。